Records of exam attempts

[VernSchil_resurrected]

We recently interviewed an experienced candidate who seemed very strong on paper but was a little wishy washy on the number of times he (in the general term without being gender specific) has attempted on the last exam he wrote. While a strong exam progress is not the ultimate requirement that we are looking for, we do want to have an honest employee.

Is there any way we, as an employer, can find out through the SOA how many attempts a particular employee / future employee has made on a specific exam?

[Gandalf]

I don't think so. They posts lists of who passed. I suspect they would tell you which exams someone passed and when.

[Size17]

Maybe you can request a copy of the exam transcript?

Then you can get some feel, like mine starts with Course 1 then goes to Course FM. There are dates too. You can get a feel for the progession then.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Is there any way we, as an employer, can find out through the SOA how many attempts a particular employee / future employee has made on a specific exam?
No. It's none of your business who takes exams for the SOA (when they're not paid for by your company).

However, if you're dishonest you might be able to find out. Then, I don't know who would want to work for you.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Is "wishy-washy" the same as not being honest? Do you think he lied, or was he just not forthcoming in his answer?

[SirVLCIV]

Is there a gap? A large time gap? Could (s)he explain said time gap?

[VernSchil_resurrected]

Is "wishy-washy" the same as not being honest? Do you think he lied, or was he just not forthcoming in his answer?

We think he lied because of various information that he provided (number of hours he studied for, gap between exams, work load from current job etc...) He said he took it X number of times, then he wasn't so sure, then it was a maybe.

Truth is, we don't care about whether he took it 10 times before he passed. But if he can't give a simple answer to a simple question or has to give a false answer on purpose, then we will have to think twice about hiring him... however, he seems like a very strong candidate and we would be more than interested in hiring him, as long as he didn't make things up including his achievements and responsibility in his current job that he's trying to leave.

We thought about asking for a reference from his current job to verify some of the work he listed on his resume but didn't think it was appropriate to alarm his current employer if he's trying to leave that company.

[JMO Fan]

You should not be asking number of times he attempted exams. DTNF is right, it's none of your business. His answer might simply have been similar to the response if you had asked if he's married --how do you answer an illegal question? (In this case, an unprofessional, unethical, unhelpful question -- but you still shouldn't have asked.)

SoA will only provide a list of exams passed and dates. I have a good friend who muddled around the second exam for several years before he finally made up his mind to be an actuary. Then he passed them all with straight 10's, became CEO a few years later.

[E. Blackadder]

One can think of so many rude questions you could ask of a candidate to "test for honesty." After filtering out the most enjoyable, I'm left with...

What do you think of my interviewing skill? What did you like best about the cafeteria lunch? Are those HR people a hoot or what? What did you think of [the guy you plan to can in favor of the new hire]? How would you tell your supervisor he's doing a big thing badly, and how often have you done this? Does this tie look vaguely effeminate? Do you think Westley is on the ball?

[VernSchil_resurrected]

You should not be asking number of times he attempted exams. DTNF is right, it's none of your business. His answer might simply have been similar to the response if you had asked if he's married --how do you answer an illegal question? (In this case, an unprofessional, unethical, unhelpful question -- but you still shouldn't have asked.)

SoA will only provide a list of exams passed and dates. I have a good friend who muddled around the second exam for several years before he finally made up his mind to be an actuary. Then he passed them all with straight 10's, became CEO a few years later.

The interviewer who asked that question also happened to be at around the same exam level and they were discussing about the exams when that particular topic came up. At the end of the day, the topic was brought up, which at that time was an innocent topic, but caused us to raise a flag about this person's honesty. Again, we don't CARE about how many times it takes a person to pass an exam. We are in an insurance company, we don't really have much emphasis on exam progress. We are concerned about the integrity of this candidate. We like this candidate, but we don't want to be hiring someone who isn't someone we thought he is.

So let's not try to poke around about his exam attempts. Would you guys have other methods of going about to check the accuracy of his resume. (I'm talking more about particular projects that he did and managerial roles that he was in rather than particular knowledge that he knows.)

[Dr T Non-Fan]

The interviewer who asked that question also happened to be at around the same exam level and they were discussing about the exams when that particular topic came up. At the end of the day, the topic was brought up, which at that time was an innocent topic, but caused us to raise a flag about this person's honesty. Again, we don't CARE about how many times it takes a person to pass an exam. We are in an insurance company, we don't really have much emphasis on exam progress. We are concerned about the integrity of this candidate. We like this candidate, but we don't want to be hiring someone who isn't someone we thought he is.

So let's not try to poke around about his exam attempts. Would you guys have other methods of going about to check the accuracy of his resume. (I'm talking more about particular projects that he did and managerial roles that he was in rather than particular knowledge that he knows.)

All I can say is, if you have doubts about his character, then knowing how many attempts he actually made should be irrelevant to your decision. Is there some toss-up between this candidate and some other one? Or between hiring him and not hiring him? Will knowing the answer change anything?

I'm guessing not.

[VernSchil_resurrected]

All I can say is, if you have doubts about his character, then knowing how many attempts he actually made should be irrelevant to your decision. Is there some toss-up between this candidate and some other one? Or between hiring him and not hiring him? Will knowing the answer change anything?

I'm guessing not.

The hiring team is pretty evenly split on hiring this person or not. Our VP and a few or us like him, the rest of us don't. I don't think we have encountered a candidate who causes us to have such dilemma. Truth is, those who don't like him think that he is overly confident and exaggerates achievements (hence trying to figure out what he said or showed on his resume is true or not) while those who like him just think he is a top notch guy.

We'll be making a decision before lunch tomorrow.. so maybe I will let you know what we decide on.

[atomic]

The interviewer who asked that question also happened to be at around the same exam level and they were discussing about the exams when that particular topic came up. At the end of the day, the topic was brought up, which at that time was an innocent topic, but caused us to raise a flag about this person's honesty. Again, we don't CARE about how many times it takes a person to pass an exam. We are in an insurance company, we don't really have much emphasis on exam progress. We are concerned about the integrity of this candidate. We like this candidate, but we don't want to be hiring someone who isn't someone we thought he is.

So let's not try to poke around about his exam attempts. Would you guys have other methods of going about to check the accuracy of his resume. (I'm talking more about particular projects that he did and managerial roles that he was in rather than particular knowledge that he knows.)

It's really impossible for any of us who were not actually present at that moment to know the precise exchange that occurred, including the numerous nonverbal cues.

That said, however, I really must point out that the context under which an inappropriate question is asked is irrelevant. It simply should not have been asked and there's no reason that justifies it. Your intentions, motivations, etc. are irrelevant, because how is the interviewee supposed to be privy to your attitudes on the matter?

To give you a better understanding, suppose I was interviewing you for a position, and everything goes really well. So well, in fact, that we develop a rapport, and instead of conducting everything professionally, I invite you to lunch, my treat. I talk about stuff in a non-interview context. At this point, what are you, as the job applicant, supposed to think? Am I secretly doing this to figure out if you're going to let something slip? How are you supposed to know if I can be trusted? Now say I ask you a clearly inappropriate question, but I do it in a way that doesn't suggest deception, because we're just "talking shop." What then?

The problem with what happened is that you've overstepped your bounds in the process. You can't then turn around and take it against the interviewee if they are blindsided by it. If you do, then your company is the one that loses out. If I applied for a position and I detected unprofessional conduct on the part of the interviewer, I would have alarm bells going off in my head. I'd probably look elsewhere.

[atomic]

The hiring team is pretty evenly split on hiring this person or not. Our VP and a few or us like him, the rest of us don't. I don't think we have encountered a candidate who causes us to have such dilemma. Truth is, those who don't like him think that he is overly confident and exaggerates achievements (hence trying to figure out what he said or showed on his resume is true or not) while those who like him just think he is a top notch guy.

We'll be making a decision before lunch tomorrow.. so maybe I will let you know what we decide on.

If some of you are suspicious, then the solution is simple: Don't hire him. You're not going to know if you made the right choice or not, but that's not the applicant's fault.

[GosuJohn]

What is so wrong about asking how many attempts he took for an exam? Ive been asked this many times in interview, seems like a very fair question. All you have to see is the time between the exams to know how many times he attempted it. If he only has one exam and is already moving jobs, I highly doubt hes a very strong candidate, that coupled with the fact that half the interviewers thought he was cocky/overconfident makes it obvious that this person is lying about more than just how many times he took an exam.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

What is so wrong about asking how many attempts he took for an exam? Ive been asked this many times in interview, seems like a very fair question. All you have to see is the time between the exams to know how many times he attempted it.

Actually, I don't see a problem with asking the question, as it does help determine the cromulent candidates. However, if a candidate hems-and-haws, and doesn't provide a consistent answer, then I do NOT think it is appropriate for the interviewing company to find out what the right answer is. The right answer is not important, since inconsistent answers means at least one fib.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

You should not be asking number of times he attempted exams. DTNF is right, it's none of your business. His answer might simply have been similar to the response if you had asked if he's married --how do you answer an illegal question? (In this case, an unprofessional, unethical, unhelpful question -- but you still shouldn't have asked.)

Ah, that's not what I said nor meant. That is the position of the SOA, not of the candidate interviewing to look better than the rest of the candidates.

Question about marriage status is not similar.

[Lucy]

If some of you are suspicious, then the solution is simple: Don't hire him. You're not going to know if you made the right choice or not, but that's not the applicant's fault.That'd be my inclination.

But since some of you really like him. . . does he have a next-to-last job? Call up someone there, where he no longer works, and find out if their descriptions of his responsibilities match his. That matters more than the exam thing to you anyway. Personally, I wouldn't read too much into his hesitating on the "how many times" question. Some employers care a LOT about exam progress and he may be embarrassed or flustered by it, especially since the SOA considers that confidential infomrmation and he probably knows that and wasn't expecting to be asked.

[JMO]

First, if anyone had asked me how many attempts I had made at an exam that I had subsequently passed, I would have hmmed and haaaed around, too.

Next, although it's probably too late to do anything about it now, one way to get insight into the accuracy of the candidate's story is to contact one or more of the individuals named as references. This kind of situation is exactly what references are for. Of course, this is JMO. ;)

[VernSchil_resurrected]

so after a brief meeting this morning, we have decided not to make an offer to this candidate.

And FYI, no, the exam attempt was not the only thing that we were suspicious about. I just thought it was the easiest thing to clarify which was why I asked that question first. And I don't know about you guys, but I have not seen an experienced (non-entry level) candidate's resume that has references on it.

[JMO Fan]

references don't belong on the resume

references are provided upon request, usually after the interview

[Brad Gile]

First, if anyone had asked me how many attempts I had made at an exam that I had subsequently passed, I would have hmmed and haaaed around, too.

Next, although it's probably too late to do anything about it now, one way to get insight into the accuracy of the candidate's story is to contact one or more of the individuals named as references. This kind of situation is exactly what references are for. Of course, this is JMO. ;)

I would have told them, "This is a complex situation. If you have the time to listen, I will tell you." After the interview was finished, I would then have crossed that company off my list of prospects. Actually, my exam history is somewhat bizarre, but that's a story for another time. :D

Brad

[bdschobel]

I don't see anything inappropriate about asking a candidate how many times he attempted an exam. The employer has a legitimate interest in estimating how long it will take this person to become an FSA, and past exam performance is an indicator -- maybe not a great indicator, but it's better than nothing. Of course, as others have noted, the SOA will provide information only with respect to exams passed, not exams failed.

If I had any doubts about a candidate's veracity, I would not hire that person. If a candidate felt that a question about past exam performance was inappropriate, he could say so directly, and I would debate the issue, but lying -- or even obfuscating -- is unacceptable.

Bruce

[tommie frazier]

specifics not required, but had the candidate said "a few on that one, a couple on this, etc." the picture would have been clear enough. I don't remmeber all of mine without a lot of thought. but I can say a couple here and there pretty easliy so it isn't like I'm hiding something.

[JMO Fan]

I don't see anything inappropriate about asking a candidate how many times he attempted an exam. ... Bruce Why does the SoA not provide info on failed attempts?

[bdschobel]

We consider it private information.

Bruce

[GeekGoddess]

references don't belong on the resume

references are provided upon request, usually after the interview

They are also asked for quite often on the application, which you usually have to fill out before the interview.

[UOIEA]

Does anyone knows if SOA could provide a candidate the record of past exam attempts and scores, upon request?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Does anyone knows if SOA could provide a candidate the record of past exam attempts and scores, upon request?
It is more likely possible that it could send a new result slip to the address of record, with the candidate number of each sitting.

It's not a college, after all. You are supposed to have all of these in a special file in your cabinet. You wouldn't be considered very actuarial if you didn't have them, sorted chronologically and all.
Heck, that would be a great way to cull the list, too. Ask for the SOA transcripts. Fastest candidate to procure them should be offered the position.

[bdschobel]

Does anyone knows if SOA could provide a candidate the record of past exam attempts and scores, upon request?The SOA has this information on file. You should be able to get it easily enough. However, if the SOA gets swamped with requests, I would recommend charging some nominal amount for this service.

Bruce

[Kenny]

Does anyone knows if SOA could provide a candidate the record of past exam attempts and scores, upon request?
It is more likely possible that it could send a new result slip to the address of record, with the candidate number of each sitting.

It's not a college, after all. You are supposed to have all of these in a special file in your cabinet. You wouldn't be considered very actuarial if you didn't have them, sorted chronologically and all.
Heck, that would be a great way to cull the list, too. Ask for the SOA transcripts. Fastest candidate to procure them should be offered the position.

I don't have mine. But I'm not one to keep stacks of worthless paper.

[UOIEA]

The SOA has this information on file. You should be able to get it easily enough. However, if the SOA gets swamped with requests, I would recommend charging some nominal amount for this service.
Bruce
Thanks for the quick reply, Bruce. I will make sure to request for one soon before SOA start charging for it :smile:

[SirVLCIV]

Does anyone knows if SOA could provide a candidate the record of past exam attempts and scores, upon request?
It is more likely possible that it could send a new result slip to the address of record, with the candidate number of each sitting.

It's not a college, after all. You are supposed to have all of these in a special file in your cabinet. You wouldn't be considered very actuarial if you didn't have them, sorted chronologically and all.
Heck, that would be a great way to cull the list, too. Ask for the SOA transcripts. Fastest candidate to procure them should be offered the position.

I don't have mine. But I'm not one to keep stacks of worthless paper.

I am. In chronological order.

:geek:

[_BullDog_]

You should not be asking number of times he attempted exams.

Why is that. Passing exams is a big part of many actuarial job responsibilities. Employers have a right to know if the person can perform the given responsibilities in the time frame expected for the job.

[uncultured]

What is so wrong about asking how many attempts he took for an exam? Ive been asked this many times in interview, seems like a very fair question. All you have to see is the time between the exams to know how many times he attempted it.

Actually, I don't see a problem with asking the question, as it does help determine the cromulent candidates. However, if a candidate hems-and-haws, and doesn't provide a consistent answer, then I do NOT think it is appropriate for the interviewing company to find out what the right answer is. The right answer is not important, since inconsistent answers means at least one fib.

cromulent? or cormorant? I think I get what you're trying to say but I'm not sure...

[bdschobel]

Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English
Entry: cromulent
Part of Speech: adj
Definition: fine, acceptable
Usage: slang

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English
Entry: cromulent
Part of Speech: adj
Definition: fine, acceptable
Usage: slang
Your cromulent post has embiggened us all.

[RG]

I'm still missing something: why does it matter how many times someone took an exam and didn't pass rather than not sitting for any exam? I've gotten advice to take a stab at an exam every sitting even if you don't have the time to prepare properly. It gives you a real sense of what the exam will be like and you're probably going to study harder than if you didn't sit for it.

And, at the end of the day, doesn't every company believe it will provide better support and a stronger student environment than the one it's potential candidate came from?

[_BullDog_]

I'm still missing something: why does it matter how many times someone took an exam and didn't pass rather than not sitting for any exam? I've gotten advice to take a stab at an exam every sitting even if you don't have the time to prepare properly. It gives you a real sense of what the exam will be like and you're probably going to study harder than if you didn't sit for it.
It's doesn't but if you don't have the dates the exams were passed it is really hard to know how many sittings were between each passing attempt.

And, at the end of the day, doesn't every company believe it will provide better support and a stronger student environment than the one it's potential candidate came from?

No, most companies have very similar programs.

[JMO Fan]

Some companies just want more work, with exam-passing regardless of support.

[Miguel on the Beach]

They are also asked for quite often on the application, which you usually have to fill out before the interview.

I would only provide a professional acquaintance not tied to my current job if the company insited on contacting my references prior to making a job offer.

If the app is asking me to list a current or prior supervisor, or a give a ref from a current co-worker, then I may list the person, but will indicate that they can not contact them at that time. Actually, all my current and prior supervisors have always told me that the company will not allow them, or anyone in the chain of command, to provide references, so I may indicate that also. For other co-workers from my current company, these would be people with limited direct project work with me, maybe only see my work with 1 or 2 of my 8 project teams, they are not any of the people that I am reporting to every week who see all of my work...they will be people selected who will say very nice things about me, but may not be able to give much detail outside of a limited scope.

There may not be much useful info you can get from refs prior to making a job offer, and only limited real info after that.

With my last job change, I already had working relationships within the same group of people who were hiring me, which made everything much nicer.

[Werewolf]

I'm still missing something: why does it matter how many times someone took an exam and didn't pass rather than not sitting for any exam? I've gotten advice to take a stab at an exam every sitting even if you don't have the time to prepare properly. It gives you a real sense of what the exam will be like and you're probably going to study harder than if you didn't sit for it.

I think it's a fair question to ask how many times someone took an exam, in the case that you are hiring for an exam-supported actuarial student position or another "fast-track" position where passing exams and attaining a professional designation is expected. You are trying to gauge the candidate's ability to pass exams, and if it takes a candidate three attempts to pass an exam, within a student program and without outside problems, then the candidate is not a good fit for your position. He may be better for a non-exam actuarial technician position.

I think it's fair to expect an average passing rate of 50% for a candidate that's taking exams with company support. The needs of your company or the position you're filling may vary.