Graduate School (Math)

[rad]

I searched the forums before starting this, and couldn't find what i'm looking for.

So I'm starting 4th year as a Math Majour starting this September, and it's time for me to apply for Graduate School (in Mathematics)

This sounds stupid: I was wondering, what would be the best specialization for a Masters that would be helpful with a career in Actuarial Science, Investment Banking, Trading etc...?


Some schools offer a Masters in Financial Mathemtics, so that would probably be the best choice, but the problem is...almost EVERYONE in my school wants to do that (and half of them are idots and don't even know what it is)

But MSc Financial Mathematics seems just so competitive...

So what would be a good choice? Number Theory, PDE etc???


I was also looking into a MSc Finance, but only 1 school offers that (in Canada)

Lastly, I saw a post that had the top financial math schools in the USA, i can't find that, does anybody know where i can find a list..

[Bühlmann]

I have a Masters degree in Math. It is worthless in my actuarial career (currently an ASA).

[Dr T Non-Fan]

For actuarial career, number of exams passed is the top priority. Master's Degree candidates without exams passed do not get placed higher on the résumé pile than Bachelor's Degreed folks with exams.
For the other professions, you might get better information from fora created by people in those professons.

[rad]

Yea, that's true, its been said many times on this forum that # of exams past is the most important thing in the Actuarial Field, so i do keep that in mind.

But doesn't anybody feel that a Bacholers is not enough these days - that it is like the "new high school"?

[Take 2]

Bachelor's might not be enough, but actuarial exams are. :judge:

[Westley]

But doesn't anybody feel that a Bacholers is not enough these days - that it is like the "new high school"?
Yes, that's why we require exams.

If you want to be an actuary, a grad degree has very little value (which is not to say that every class you might take has very little value, just the degree).

For other finance careers, check vault or some other boards like that - depending on what you do, it may be worthwhile.

[rad]

uggg....

I've just spend 1 full month preparing for an actuarial science exam.

Didn't socialize for the longest time,

this really hurts.


But back on topic, what, in your opinions, do you think is an awesome MSc degree to peruse for a "business" profession ?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

uggg....

I've just spend 1 full month preparing for an actuarial science exam.

Didn't socialize for the longest time,

this really hurts.


But back on topic, what, in your opinions, do you think is an awesome MSc degree to peruse for a "business" profession ?
Which Masters of Science degree in Mathematics for a business profession? None.
And you were right in your first post about it sounding stupid.

[Woodrow]

But doesn't anybody feel that a Bacholers is not enough these days - that it is like the "new high school"?

You need a bachelors to get a job like you needed a high school degree 50 years ago. You do not need a masters like you did not need a college degree 50 years ago.

Do you want this for career reasons or bragging rights?

I got a theoretical math masters. I feel like an applied math degree would have led to more opportunities.

The subjects I studied were unrelated to exams, but the intensity of work prepared me well for exams. Not sure if that's the best path, though.

[DoctorNo]

My Ph.D. is in optimization. It's helped marginally. With clients, it's nice to have some more letters after my name.

[Deadwood]

Which Masters of Science degree in Mathematics for a business profession? None.
And you were right in your first post about it sounding stupid.

Wow. Amazing that you say it's a stupid question when professional bodies such as The Institute of Actuaries and CAS emphasize the "mathematical ability" of actuaries as one of their strengths.

Taken from their respective websites:

Actuaries apply financial and statistical theories to solve real business problems.

What skills are needed to be an actuary?
- Specialized math knowledge
- Calculus, statistics, probability

[Woodrow]

My Ph.D. is in optimization. It's helped marginally. With clients, it's nice to have some more letters after my name.

Must... resist......... Must.... not...say...it....


Wow, sounds like you took a pretty inefficient career path


sorry

[DoctorNo]

Wow, sounds like you took a pretty inefficient career path


The journey is the reward, my friend.

Where else but grad school can I play intercollegiate ice hockey until I'm 29?

[rad]

Which Masters of Science degree in Mathematics for a business profession? None.
And you were right in your first post about it sounding stupid.

lol



Do you want this for career reasons or bragging rights?



I want to do a Masters because I am very enthusiastic about math and learning.

But i thought it would be good to have something that would reflect on a career in Actuarial Science - as that is what i indent on perusing as a career.


From everyone's response, it seems like a Masters won't help me anymore than a bachelors.

[Westley]

Wow. Amazing that you say it's a stupid question when professional bodies such as The Institute of Actuaries and CAS emphasize the "mathematical ability" of actuaries as one of their strengths.

Taken from their respective websites:

degree <> skills

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Wow. Amazing that you say it's a stupid question when professional bodies such as The Institute of Actuaries and CAS emphasize the "mathematical ability" of actuaries as one of their strengths.

Taken from their respective websites:
Merely agreeing with the OP.

Those "skills" and "mathematical ability" are readily available in Bachelor degree holders who have passed one or two exams, which is about what most (89.4%, +/- 10%) of actuaries have passed in order to have been offered their first job. So, there is no reason to go on to even higher edumacation if you can pass exams without it, AND if an actuarial career is what you eventually plan to try.

[Deadwood]

degree <> skills

It's fairly closely correlated.

[tommie frazier]

if you really want a grad degree or moe study in math, go to grad school. if you just want to be an actuary, take exams while getting and holding down a job.

if you find you miss school, you can always go back, cept with money in the bank account.

[Westley]

It's fairly closely correlated.
You might want to consider which is the cause and which is the effect.

[rad]

if you really want a grad degree or moe study in math, go to grad school. if you just want to be an actuary, take exams while getting and holding down a job.

if you find you miss school, you can always go back, cept with money in the bank account.


I think that clears up my question!

You might want to consider which is the cause and which is the effect.

Degree is the cause. Skill the effect (IMO)

[SirVLCIV]

lol



I want to do a Masters because I am very enthusiastic about math and learning.

But i thought it would be good to have something that would reflect on a career in Actuarial Science - as that is what i indent on perusing as a career.


From everyone's response, it seems like a Masters won't help me anymore than a bachelors.

If you want to go into the actuarial field, pass exams.

If you want to go into quantitative finance (risk management, product development, quantitative trading, etc.), check out a Masters in Financial Engineering or Computational Finance or some such.

If you want to go into trading, try to land a junior trading job and learn the ropes and hope you get to trade yourself (may not pay as much as an actuarial job immediately out the door, but has a much larger upside) - advanced degree doesn't appear necessary at all.

IBanking? If you think you can survive that life, again, an MS would be rather useless.

[cincinnatikid]

Degree is the cause. Skill the effect (IMO)

If that's the case, then why do schools require GREs/GMATs and high GPAs to get in?

Grad schools are just time for students who already have the aptitude and skills to focus in a specific area. The new learning and tools given to students in most graduate programs is probably marginal at best by comparison to what most of these people could do with 2-5 years of independent study.

Thus, unless you have a specific desire to do something directly in the field of mathematics, grad school probably won't benefit you significantly. Work through exams and find an employer with a generous Tuition Assistance Program to let you tinker around with some advanced mathematics or specific goals you may have.

[Deadwood]

Grad schools are just time for students who already have the aptitude and skills to focus in a specific area. The new learning and tools given to students in most graduate programs is probably marginal at best by comparison to what most of these people could do with 2-5 years of independent study.

I don't agree with this to be honest. Independent study is very difficult - not being surrounded by like-minded people is why. At grad school you have access to professors and classmates all thinking about the same types of problems as you are.

Likewise, when joining a new company I think it's important to ensure you're in a job which is a) interesting and b) with people who are also interested in what you are doing.

I don't believe in re-inventing the wheel.

[cincinnatikid]

I don't agree with this to be honest. Independent study is very difficult - not being surrounded by like-minded people is why. At grad school you have access to professors and classmates all thinking about the same types of problems as you are.

Likewise, when joining a new company I think it's important to ensure you're in a job which is a) interesting and b) with people who are also interested in what you are doing.

I don't believe in re-inventing the wheel.

Agreed...I was referring to independent study more as a semi-guided course of study/research as compared to coursework; not the unabomber writing a manifesto in a cabin in the woods type of independent.

Absolutely agree that if collaboration/idea sharing is important to you, you should seek this out in a company you are looking at. There are certainly some companies that do this a lot better than others.

[RichieGB]

My opinion:

An advanced degree is not a waste of time. But it is indeed irrelevant when considered with your goal to be an actuary. I think that the level of training on the job is sufficient if you make the most of it, and that anything you learn in graduate school (for actuarial science) can be picked up in the field. If you are heading towards the research area, then grad school may be beneficial.

Experience will vary. I did go to grad school, and am happy that I did. But was it necessary for my career choice? Absolutely not.

[campbell]

I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. Where I'm coming from: 6 years in grad school, for a PhD I never got (did get the MS). I was in applied math, and my thesis area was probabilistic modeling of neurons (involving stochastic PDEs).

Grad school didn't help with actuarial exams, other than to get a lot of practice in taking exams and doing self-study. You don't need grad school for that.

However, doing research, and expanding your mathematical toolbox (I did Monte Carlo modeling, numerical algorithms for solving linear algebra and different equations, asymptotic methods for PDEs, methods for finding extrema, just to name a few handy things), can be really helpful in getting yourself into new areas of actuarial practice. I am sure that I would never have gotten some of the modeling projects I did so early in my actuarial career without the graduate experience to back me up. Mind you, I still did the mindless spreadsheet monkey stuff that new actuarial students get, but I also got opportunities not given even to new FSAs.

So the degree won't help you land the job necessarily (you still need exams), and it certainly doesn't get you higher pay, but it can be useful as a signal that you might be able to do some things a fresh-out-of-college actuarial student cannot.

As for related fields, note that I didn't specialize in mathematical finance, though I did take some courses in it in grad school. I took lots of theoretical probability as well as did probabilistic modeling, which was helpful. The techniques for solving a stochastic PDE for valuing options are the same as when you're dealing with stochastic PDEs modeling a biological system. The beauty of applied math is the same core skillset can be used for a wide variety of models.

So go to math grad school if you want to learn math more deeply and you're interested in doing some research. Don't do it for the financial rewards or for credentialing alone.

[Bamafan]

I have an MA in Math, 5 years towards PhD I didn't finish. I went to Grad school because I thought I wanted to be a college professor. Turns out, I much prefer a (slightly) more predictable career path.

I would suggest, if you think you want to be an actuary, pass an exam, get a job, and do that for a year or two. Then decide if you want to go back to school or if you like what you are doing and where you are going enough to stay in that job or one like it. You won't miss anything except a couple of years of near poverty.

Perception <> reality, especially when it comes to a career. Being an actuarial student may not be the glamorous life it is cracked up to be when you get into it. Same for grad school.

[silverfox]

Masters in Financial Engineering is my suggestion, not for an actuarial career, but for a quantitative finance career.

[Westley]

Degree is the cause. Skill the effect (IMO)I would suggest that you aren't in a position to know what quantitative skills are actually used in an actuarial job, and therefore aren't really in a position to judge the situation.

To be more clear: There are specific processes, techniques, and ways of thinking that you will learn while getting a Masters in Math. If that's what you mean by skills, I agree that the degree is the cause. However, these skills are worthless in 75-90% of all actuarial positions (and, they aren't overly valuable in most other positions, but there's a very small subset of positions where they might be considered valuable).

Then, there's just general skills, the kind that is tested for by GRE and the like (i.e., you have before you even get the degree, and having those skills probably leads you to get the degree). Ability, potential, skills, whatever you want to call it. This is pretty much a requirement in order to succeed as an actuary. And, you don't learn it by getting a degree.

Having said all of that, I do agree with Campbell's post above. We have certain positions where we do some more complicated math - some of our work modeling interest rate scenarios for risk management purposes, just as an example - that I think the masters might help a little (really, not very much at all) AND it could play a significant role in helping you get picked for the position.

It sounds to me like you have two options:
1) Spend money now for something you aren't sure whether you will use or not because you aren't sure what career path you are trying to pursue, and there's the possibility that you will need a masters later and you won't have the right one
2) Make money while finding out more about what kind of position you want, with the option still open to you to go back later if you decide you want/need a masters.
Given that you don't sound like you really know what you want to do as far as a career path, I would earn money while figuring it out rather than spending money while not figuring it out.

[Woodrow]

Given that you don't sound like you really know what you want to do as far as a career path, I would earn money while figuring it out rather than spending money while not figuring it out.

I certainly hope he doesn't spend money to go to grad school. They should pay him. I don't mean to brag, but I pulled down over $11k per year as a math grad student.

[Westley]

I don't think you get paid for some of the financial sstuff like an MFE; as for a math degree, if you make $11k when you could earn $50k in an alternate job, you're not technically paying, but it's still an opportunity cost.

[SirVLCIV]

I certainly hope he doesn't spend money to go to grad school. They should pay him. I don't mean to brag, but I pulled down over $11k per year as a math grad student.

PhD student I presume? They don't typically give out full grants to get masters, AFAIK.

[campbell]

If you're at a school that doesn't have many PhD students, and a need for TAs, you can get a graduate stipend as a masters student, and even tuition waivers. Math departments generally need lots of instructors.

[Reflection]

PhD student I presume? They don't typically give out full grants to get masters, AFAIK.

My guess would be that's the salary for being a Teaching Assistant - that was about my salary when I was a TA as a grad student.

[GosuJohn]

I certainly hope he doesn't spend money to go to grad school. They should pay him. I don't mean to brag, but I pulled down over $11k per year as a math grad student.

Must of been a long time ago? My friend had offers of 24 and 30, it was engineering tho, not sure if that is different.

[horace goldfarb]

Must of been a long time ago? My friend had offers of 24 and 30, it was engineering tho, not sure if that is different.
A GTA stipend of 30? That's higher than I've ever heard of. I've heard 15-18 is the average now.

[GosuJohn]

A GTA stipend of 30? That's higher than I've ever heard of. I've heard 15-18 is the average now.

Yea, top schools give 22-24 for engineering, but some of the schools outside top tier were giving 30 to him.

[cincinnatikid]

A GTA stipend of 30? That's higher than I've ever heard of. I've heard 15-18 is the average now.

Most TA stipends I've heard of are in the low 20s. I've seen fellowships in the low 30s.

Maybe they're higher in high-COL areas.

[rad]

Alot of schools pay over $15000 these days for the masters (In Canada)

I *think* in the sates you pay them?

The people who did do their masters, I do suppose they have much more career options and flexibility then just actuarial science.

Also, it would be an awesome experience. I bet most of us an an awesome 4 years - hopefully grad school can bring the same experience.

[GosuJohn]

I bet most of us an an awesome 4 years - hopefully grad school can bring the same experience.

I'll take cube life and money over homework and poverty everyday of the week.

[Kabaka]

I have a Masters degree in Math. It is worthless in my actuarial career (currently an ASA).

:judge:

[piano]

Instead of applied math, I think statistics graduate school has a lot more possibilities to work in industry. Statistics is a form of applied math, but at least in my department, a lot of people go to the pharmaceutical industry or Capital One.

But again, it is not an extra credential in the actuarial world at all, but could open other doors.

By the way, the Phd in statistics who lands a job in the pharm industry will get about the same salary initially as an ASA.

But it is all about what you want to do.

These jobs, even the statistician / business analyst job at Capital One / Bank of America / Chase, are not comparable to actuarial work.

Again, only do the job that you want to do.


But if you go to grad school and really want to do applied math, then consider statistics perhaps instead. I think that there is potentially more industrial opportunities there.

[rad]

Statistics is good stuff...

Thanks Piano

[GosuJohn]

Statistics is good stuff...



:sleep: