Vick Indicted

[douglan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19814494/

[BallaActuary]

I hope they make him a prime example of what will happen to you if you are caught dogfighting.

[ShebaPoe]

Did it happen? Absolutely, and I hope some people prison for it.

Was it Vick personally, or was it an example of what goes wrong when an entourage of losers meets up with a $20M per year athlete? That, I suppose is to be discovered.

[BallaActuary]

No one forced him to participate. Maybe he was put in one of the "rape stands" against his will like all those pits.

[ShebaPoe]

No one forced him to participate. Maybe he was put in one of the "rape stands" against his will like all those pits.

I've got dogs. I'm trying to leave my emotions out. My g/f rescued a pit bull...we are not planning to keep her, but we had her spayed so that she can't be bred. I wasn't crazy about the ideaof rescuing a pit bull but it has turned out all right.

When you're as rich as Vick, and the people around you are from your background but without any discernible talent at much of anything, then bad stuff often happens.

It is possible that Vick bought his cousins a house, put them on an allowance (maybe, what $10K a month, so they'd leave him alone) and was not involved beyond that.

It is also possible that he knew about some of this stuff, and just didn't say anything. Like, for example, I give my brother money every month. He works part time and goes out drinking a lot. If he gets in a bar fight, it's not my fault because I gave him extra money, is it?

Then of course, Vick could be an active participant, and if that's the case, I hope he gets punished harshly.

[Bob the Dog]

You can probably guess Bob ain't too happy with any of these ****ers.

[BallaActuary]

I've got dogs. I'm trying to leave my emotions out. My g/f rescued a pit bull...we are not planning to keep her, but we had her spayed so that she can't be bred. I wasn't crazy about the ideaof rescuing a pit bull but it has turned out all right.

When you're as rich as Vick, and the people around you are from your background but without any discernible talent at much of anything, then bad stuff often happens.

It is possible that Vick bought his cousins a house, put them on an allowance (maybe, what $10K a month, so they'd leave him alone) and was not involved beyond that.

It is also possible that he knew about some of this stuff, and just didn't say anything. Like, for example, I give my brother money every month. He works part time and goes out drinking a lot. If he gets in a bar fight, it's not my fault because I gave him extra money, is it?

Then of course, Vick could be an active participant, and if that's the case, I hope he gets punished harshly.

If your brother wants to get into a barfight, there is nothing you can do stop it. You can't control what bar he goes to, how much he drinks, who else is at the bar, what they say to provoke him. He is going to drink whether you send him money or not.
Vick owned the house his cousin was staying in. He could have told his cousin to leave, to stop the dogfighting, or stopped sending him an allowance. If you are close enough to someone to give them $10k a month and buy them a house, you are close enough to know what they are doing with your money in your house.

[lipman]

It is also possible that he knew about some of this stuff, and just didn't say anything. Like, for example, I give my brother money every month. He works part time and goes out drinking a lot. If he gets in a bar fight, it's not my fault because I gave him extra money, is it?

Then of course, Vick could be an active participant, and if that's the case, I hope he gets punished harshly.

It is called enabling.

[GuineaPig]

Clinton portis reaction (how ever many months ago now) was priceless.

[Doctor Infinity]

Ron Mexico can rot in hell.

That's all I have to say about that.

[jets fan]

The indictment mentioned that three other people, along with Vick, are facing charges. I bet the feds will talk to each of those three people to cut a deal to testify against Vick, and if they're successful, Vick is going to have a really tough time with his defense. In fact, he'll probably look into cutting a deal himself to reduce his sentence.

As a side note, whether Vick is guilty or not, I'm sure his endorsement career will take a pretty stiff blow.

[General Apathy]

Is Nifong available?

[Not Mike]

It is possible that Vick bought his cousins a house, put them on an allowance (maybe, what $10K a month, so they'd leave him alone) and was not involved beyond that.

It's also possible that OJ didn't kill Goldman and Nicole. Actually, I guess he didn't kill them since he was acquitted. Wiat, but he did since he lost the civil case.

Vick's "posse" takes no blame in any of this.


And to the earlier comment about feeling sorry for the fans of Atlanta, I don't. This is actually the best thing that can happen if they ever want to win a Super Bowl.

[GuineaPig]

Is Nifong available?

Nice...

[Griffin 6]

It is possible that Vick bought his cousins a house, put them on an allowance (maybe, what $10K a month, so they'd leave him alone) and was not involved beyond that.Yeah, that's it. He had no idea that a major interstate dogfighting operation was being conducted from inside his home during the past 6 years. That makes a lot more sense than the possibility that Vick had participated in this activity while in VA, and then, upon being drafted by Atlanta, had enough money to finally do it right.

[LifeAct]

I'm going to boycott Home Depot.

PETA already is thinking about it.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/05/20/could-vick-case-cause-activists-to-target-home-depot/

But a boycott of Home Depot could have real traction because its customers won't have a problem shopping at Menard or True Value or Wal-Mart.

I would think that the customers who boycott Home Depot would go to Lowes. But what do I know.

[Guest]

:clap:

[Griffin 6]

I would think that the customers who boycott Home Depot would go to Lowes. But what do I know.That would require them to drive all the way across the street. Who wants to go that far?

[Griffin 6]

You really should consider all points of view before deciding:
Washington Redskins running back Clinton Portis is behind Michael Vick 100%. He thinks this whole dog fighting thing has gotten entirely too much attention and that we all (fans and media alike) should mind our own business.
"I don't know if he was fighting dogs or not, but it's his property, it's his dog," Portis told WAVY-TV. "If that's what he wants to do, do it. I think people should mind their business."

[ActuaryGuy23]

As a side note, whether Vick is guilty or not, I'm sure his endorsement career will take a pretty stiff blow.

You apparently don't know many folks of non-majority racial backgrounds...

OR

Kobe's still with Nike, right?

[ShebaPoe]

Yeah, that's it. He had no idea that a major interstate dogfighting operation was being conducted from inside his home during the past 6 years. That makes a lot more sense than the possibility that Vick had participated in this activity while in VA, and then, upon being drafted by Atlanta, had enough money to finally do it right.

Hey man, I'm just being the devil's advocate to keep the discussion going.

[Mayor Adam West]

I've got dogs. I'm trying to leave my emotions out. My g/f rescued a pit bull...we are not planning to keep her, but we had her spayed so that she can't be bred. I wasn't crazy about the ideaof rescuing a pit bull but it has turned out all right.

When you're as rich as Vick, and the people around you are from your background but without any discernible talent at much of anything, then bad stuff often happens.

It is possible that Vick bought his cousins a house, put them on an allowance (maybe, what $10K a month, so they'd leave him alone) and was not involved beyond that.

It is also possible that he knew about some of this stuff, and just didn't say anything. Like, for example, I give my brother money every month. He works part time and goes out drinking a lot. If he gets in a bar fight, it's not my fault because I gave him extra money, is it?

Then of course, Vick could be an active participant, and if that's the case, I hope he gets punished harshly.

ITA. But the evidence that he was aware that this was going on, and was likely a quite active participant, appears damning. I'm not sure what the penalties are if he's convicted of this, but I hope it involves some serious jail time. Dogfighting is just utterly despicable.

[ShebaPoe]

ITA. But the evidence that he was aware that this was going on, and was likely a quite active participant, appears damning. I'm not sure what the penalties are if he's convicted of this, but I hope it involves some serious jail time. Dogfighting is just utterly despicable.

I read 6 years is possible.

[3rookie]

I strongly doubt he will serve any jail time. Even without Johnny Cochrane.

I wish everyone would stop snitching, then Mike would have been OK.

[dlwktb]

The legal stuff will work itself out based on whether he actually did it or not. The more interesting question is what will Roger Goodell and Arthur Blank do about it? I say, they will probably do nothing right now.

[Not Mike]

The legal stuff will work itself out based on whether he actually did it or not.
Wow, you have a lot of faith in the justice system always producing the right outcome.

Vick has A LOT of money, he can afford the best lawyers in the world, and despite all of the circumstantial evidence and reports, it sounds pretty difficult to actually directly tie him to this.

I'd be blown away if he actually did jail time. He may be convicted of something, but it will be a fine and probation and probably a lesser charge than what they're currently talking about.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

What is the penalty for murdering someone else's dog?

These are just animals. It is inhumane, yes. So is the treatment of the people who make the clothes we wear, yet we turn a blind eye for the low, low prices. We eat animals, too. This is just not that big a deal if you ask me.

JMO.

[LifeAct]

What is the penalty for murdering someone else's dog?

These are just animals. It is inhumane, yes. So is the treatment of the people who make the clothes we wear, yet we turn a blind eye for the low, low prices. We eat animals, too. This is just not that big a deal if you ask me.

JMO.

Until these dogs who are trained to kill, and being starved to create more aggression escape from their "owners" and attack people.

[Griffin 6]

Wow, you have a lot of faith in the justice system always producing the right outcome.

Vick has A LOT of money, he can afford the best lawyers in the world, and despite all of the circumstantial evidence and reports, it sounds pretty difficult to actually directly tie him to this.

I'd be blown away if he actually did jail time. He may be convicted of something, but it will be a fine and probation and probably a lesser charge than what they're currently talking about.So, despite your first sentence, it sounds like you expect the justice system in this case to produce what you appear to believe is the right outcome.

[douglan]

[tongue-in-cheek]

Who cares about whether Vick will get any jail time? I started this thread because of the possible effects on my fantasy football team!

[/t-i-c]

[Not Mike]

So, despite your first sentence, it sounds like you expect the justice system in this case to produce what you appear to believe is the right outcome.

No. The "right outcome" is the outcome that would happen to Joe Citizen who doesn't have the ability to buy his way out of trouble. Which very well may be jail time.

It actually wouldn't shock me at all if all charges were dropped because his boys take the fall (and he pays them off on the back end).

I just hope that it ends up being *something* so that Goodell can hit him where it hurts.

[Griffin 6]

No. The "right outcome" is the outcome that would happen to Joe Citizen who doesn't have the ability to buy his way out of trouble. Which very well may be jail time.Oh. I assumed that the right outcome would be what Joe Citizen would say should happen to any guy when "it sounds pretty difficult to actually directly tie him to this". I didn't realize we were being Jr. High.

[Not Mike]

Oh. I assumed that the right outcome would be what Joe Citizen would say should happen to any guy when "it sounds pretty difficult to actually directly tie him to this". I didn't realize we were being Jr. High.
My key word is DIRECTLY. Like video footage, receipts, hard physical evidence, etc.

Vick says he doesn't go to the house - people have seen him there and talked to him there.

"Informants" have tied Vick to dogfighting, says he's a big player in the scene, etc.

Can someone prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was running this operation? Probably not, and his money should help him buy his way out of the problem. Do that mean he's not involved to the degree they are claiming? Absolutely not.

I think it's funny how the phrase "beyond a REASONABLE doubt" has turned into "beyond any doubt, no matter how unreasonable it is"...

[BallaActuary]

I wish Mike would have never involved himself in this illegal enterprise, then Mike would have been OK.

IFYP

[BallaActuary]

What is the penalty for murdering someone else's dog?

These are just animals. It is inhumane, yes. So is the treatment of the people who make the clothes we wear, yet we turn a blind eye for the low, low prices. We eat animals, too. This is just not that big a deal if you ask me.

JMO.


I don't remember anyone asking you.

[Griffin 6]

My key word is DIRECTLY. Like video footage, receipts, hard physical evidence, etc.So you believe that if Joe Citizen was accused of running a major interstate dogfighting operation by several eyewitnesses, but there was no other evidence, the trial would be all but over?

[Griffin 6]

Vick says he doesn't go to the house - people have seen him there and talked to him there.

"Informants" have tied Vick to dogfighting, says he's a big player in the scene, etc.And if you're a big player and frequently go to the same house, there's going to be "direct" evidence.

[Not Mike]

So you believe that if Joe Citizen was accused of running a major interstate dogfighting operation by several eyewitnesses, but there was no other evidence, the trial would be all but over?

Does "no other evidence" include dog carcasses on the property he owns? Does Joe Citizen have a cousin he can blame?

[Griffin 6]

Does "no other evidence" include dog carcasses on the property he owns?Make up your mind on the direct evidence thing.
Does Joe Citizen have a cousin he can blame?I'm pretty sure that Joe Citizen is not above blaming someone else.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

I don't remember anyone asking you.

So sorry for being the voice of reason.

There are a lot of parallels between the NFL and dog fighting. How many NFL fans care that the players' lives are cut short or worsened by the NFL experience?

[LifeAct]

So sorry for being the voice of reason.

There are a lot of parallels between the NFL and dog fighting. How many NFL fans care that the players' lives are cut short or worsened by the NFL experience?

:wave: I do.

And let me be the voice of the law. What he is doing is illegal. Whether or not we think it is moral, he should be punished for breaking the law.

[Guest]

So sorry for being the voice of reason.

There are a lot of parallels between the NFL and dog fighting. How many NFL fans care that the players' lives are cut short or worsened by the NFL experience?NFL players get paid, and consent to being injured in the work they do.

Fighting dogs get starved, beaten, and tortured.

[Happy Skunk]

sweat shop workers get paid and consent to being injured in the work they do

[LifeAct]

sweat shop workers get paid and consent to being injured in the work they do

:aypi:

[Guest]

sweat shop workers get paid and consent to being injured in the work they do

But not here in the US. Because we have something called "labor law."

[SharksFan08]

So sorry for being the voice of reason.

There are a lot of parallels between the NFL and dog fighting. How many NFL fans care that the players' lives are cut short or worsened by the NFL experience?

Most fans care about that, based on people I've talked to.

And that's about the worst parallel I've ever heard. Maybe try slavery and dogfighting or something like that.

[Guest]

Another difference between NFL players and fighting dogs -

NFL players get (the best available) medical attention and disability benefits.

[SharksFan08]

Another difference between NFL players and fighting dogs -

NFL players get (the best available) medical attention and disability benefits.

That's really not true. Once they're out of the league, the medical attention and benefits are pitiful.

[LifeAct]

That's really not true. Once they're out of the league, the medical attention and benefits are pitiful.

And hopefully that all changes soon.

[Guest]

And hopefully that all changes soon.

Guess they should take some of their earnings and save up for insurance, then.

Although I agree - this should be reformed.

[Guest]

I bet NFL fans would "care" a lot if NFL players looked comparable to this. After winning.


[WARNING - blatant attempt to score emotional points with horrible imagery]
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/sadreality/photos/triumph0605_2.jpghttp://www.pitbullrescuesandiego.com/assets/images/fighting_2.jpg

[Zee]

What is the penalty for murdering someone else's dog?

These are just animals. It is inhumane, yes. So is the treatment of the people who make the clothes we wear, yet we turn a blind eye for the low, low prices. We eat animals, too. This is just not that big a deal if you ask me.

JMO.

I love seeing opinions like this. Very useful in evaluations of future opinions.

[LifeAct]

Guess they should take some of their earnings and save up for insurance, then.

Although I agree - this should be reformed.


I think that the players who are playing today make enough money so that they can adequately save and have good health coverage after retirement. The problem right now is that many of the retired players were not making the millions that are being made today.


however, the players have a union that will fight for their rights. The dogs get their faces slammed into the ground if they are not ready to fight upon request. Any comparison between NFL players and dogs that is attempted will just sound rediculous.

[SharksFan08]

I bet NFL fans would "care" a lot if NFL players looked comparable to this. After winning.


[WARNING - blatant attempt to score emotional points with horrible imagery]
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/sadreality/photos/triumph0605_2.jpghttp://www.pitbullrescuesandiego.com/assets/images/fighting_2.jpg

I don't think anyone besides 0 and 1 is arguing that dogfighting is OK. I think this is more about Vick's role (or lack thereof) in the whole operation.

It certainly looks bad for him, but I'm still going to reserve judgment for now.

[Guest]

I think that the players who are playing today make enough money so that they can adequately save and have good health coverage after retirement. The problem right now is that many of the retired players were not making the millions that are being made today.

Very good point.

Also, not every NFL player is making millions - I thought of that too when I initially posted that reply.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone besides 0 and 1 is arguing that dogfighting is OK.
Sorry, there's a thread in political where a couple people are arguing that dog fighting should be legal. I guess I got riled up there.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

Another difference between NFL players and fighting dogs -

NFL players get (the best available) medical attention and disability benefits.

Those medical benefits are not enough to offset the physical demands of a career of concussions, carrying around a dangerously healthy amount of weight, etc. And yet, fans care more about whether their team wins than the human beings on their team.

We kill animals to eat them. We kill animals to wear them. Animals are not humans. We should care about humans first, animals second. Most of you seem to think of dogs as people and people like Michael Vick as animals.

I am here to help you correct that distorted thinking. :wave:

[LifeAct]

Those medical benefits are not enough to offset the physical demands of a career of concussions, carrying around a dangerously healthy amount of weight, etc. And yet, fans care more about whether their team wins than the human beings on their team.

We kill animals to eat them. We kill animals to wear them. Animals are not humans. We should care about humans first, animals second. Most of you seem to think of dogs as people and people like Michael Vick as animals.

I am here to help you correct that distorted thinking. :wave:

I have already stated that I care about the health of retired football players. Why don't you read every post in the thread instead of picking and choosing.

What Michael Vick did is illegal. It is dangerous to society too. These dogs that he has imprisoned are trained to attack and kill. If they get lose, they can tear apart a human child.

You should write to your congressmen asking that animal cruelty laws are repealed.

[Not Mike]

Make up your mind on the direct evidence thing.
It's still circumstantial as it relates to Vick's personal involvement. Like I said, evidence that DIRECTLY ties him to it is missing, but there's plenty of evidence to reasonably conclude that he has direct involvement. But having a lot of money helps you out of those types of situations.

I'm pretty sure that Joe Citizen is not above blaming someone else.

I'm sure he's not. But Joe Citizen's cousin probably isn't willing to take the fall for him, either.

[foghorn]

These dogs that he has imprisoned are trained to attack and kill.

This is a good point, although I haven't heard of it happening much. Do you have any available stats or anecdotes handy? Seems the stories I hear about dogs attacking are housepets and not the trained killers.

[Guest]

This is a good point, although I haven't heard of it happening much. Do you have any available stats or anecdotes handy? Seems the stories I hear about dogs attacking are housepets and not the trained killers.

Well, since dog fighting is illegal, of course that's what an owner's going to say to police - "I don't know what happened...flluffy's never shown agression before!)

In the house that where my one dog was rescued there were fighting dogs in cages in the basement, and a couple dogs kept as pets in the rest of the house. The ones kept as pets weren't starved and beaten as severely as the caged ones, but they were still trained through abuse and encouragement to be agressive towards people and dogs. (my dog was a bait dog...a small puppy who was to be used to train the fighters to kill other dogs.)

[Griffin 6]

It's still circumstantial as it relates to Vick's personal involvement. Like I said, evidence that DIRECTLY ties him to it is missing, but there's plenty of evidence to reasonably conclude that he has direct involvement.Yes, I'm sure that all of the evidence has been collected and is known by you. And if you can reasonably conclude direct involvement, then it's more than what you described earlier.

I'm sure he's not. But Joe Citizen's cousin probably isn't willing to take the fall for him, either.Whether or not that's true, that's supposed to be an indictment of the justice system?

[LifeAct]

This is a good point, although I haven't heard of it happening much. Do you have any available stats or anecdotes handy? Seems the stories I hear about dogs attacking are housepets and not the trained killers.

I have not been able to find any specific evidence, but that does not prove anything to me. If I knew of a dog fighting ring in my neighborhood, I would not feel comfortable having children playing in my yard.

[Mayor Adam West]

Those medical benefits are not enough to offset the physical demands of a career of concussions, carrying around a dangerously healthy amount of weight, etc. And yet, fans care more about whether their team wins than the human beings on their team.

We kill animals to eat them. We kill animals to wear them. Animals are not humans. We should care about humans first, animals second. Most of you seem to think of dogs as people and people like Michael Vick as animals.

I am here to help you correct that distorted thinking. :wave:

You're right, we should care about humans first, and animals second. Point out which humans are benefitting from beating, starving, and pitting dogs against each other in a fight to the death, and how they would be disadvantaged if it were stopped.

(I'm sorry...I shouldn't be feeding the troll.)

[Loner]

My key word is DIRECTLY. Like video footage, receipts, hard physical evidence, etc.

Vick says he doesn't go to the house - people have seen him there and talked to him there.

"Informants" have tied Vick to dogfighting, says he's a big player in the scene, etc.

Can someone prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was running this operation? Probably not, and his money should help him buy his way out of the problem. Do that mean he's not involved to the degree they are claiming? Absolutely not.

I think it's funny how the phrase "beyond a REASONABLE doubt" has turned into "beyond any doubt, no matter how unreasonable it is"...


Yeah, because as we all know, informants are upstanding individuals with no motive whatsoever to falsely implicate a bigger fish.

[LifeAct]

You're right, we should care about humans first, and animals second. Point out which humans are benefitting from beating, starving, and pitting dogs against each other in a fight to the death, and how they would be disadvantaged if it were stopped.

(I'm sorry...I shouldn't be feeding the troll.)

don't worry. he doesn't actually read any posts before responding.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

You're right, we should care about humans first, and animals second. Point out which humans are benefitting from beating, starving, and pitting dogs against each other in a fight to the death, and how they would be disadvantaged if it were stopped.



Not everyone can afford NFL season tickets. :wink:

[Guest]

Those medical benefits are not enough to offset the physical demands of a career of concussions, carrying around a dangerously healthy amount of weight, etc.
Right...that would be what the millions of dollars in pay is for.

If players don't think it's worth their health, they can quit any time.

That being said, as an NFL fan, I do very much care about their health and wellbeing, and I'd argue for better benefits, game rules that protect their health, etc.

If you can come up with some rules for dogfighting such that the particpants aren't injured and killed, I'd listen.

[Mayor Adam West]

Very interesting article on ESPN about the indictment:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940312

Here is one particularly horrible snippet:

Would Vick be sent to jail if he is convicted?

Yes. It's hard to imagine any other outcome. The charges are serious, and the evidence against Vick presented at trial will be nasty. The government's case includes evidence that Vick and his cohorts "tested" pit bulls for ferocity. If the dogs failed the test, the indictment charges, they were executed by hanging or drowning. In one case, with Vick present, the indictment says a dog was slammed to the ground until it was dead. In another incident, a dog was soaked with a hose, then electrocuted. Those aren't the sort of transgressions that lead to probation and community service. It's the kind of behavior that results in punishment, and the punishment will be jail time.

:shake: Just horrible.

[LifeAct]

Very interesting article on ESPN about the indictment:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940312

Here is one particularly horrible snippet:



:shake: Just horrible.


Those behaviors are psychotic. They need some mental evaluation.

[Guest]

You know, I hate McNabb at times, but at least I don't have to worry about my team's starting quarterback going to federal prison for being a monster.

[Mayor Adam West]

I'll fully admit that when it comes to dogs, I'm emotionally biased. I love my two dogs. I see torturing dogs like this as being akin to torturing children. I know it's not the same, and on some level it's much worse to torture a person than a dog. But on a purely emotional level, I'm less disgusted by torturing a terrorist than I am a dog. Not saying this is at all right, just that that's how my emotions work.

[Mayor Adam West]

Alas, another rare common ground for Uma and I. ;)

[ShebaPoe]

As to players' medical care:

the average NFL career is under 4 years. The average salary is $900,000.

www.nflpa.org/Faqs/NFL_HopefulsFaq.aspx

Assuming 33% tax and a 4 year career, that's just over $2M earned by age say 26?

The NFL has a tight grip on its players and their salaries; Vick's salary and resources are way beyond the league norm (along with his athletic ability.

[3rookie]

If you can come up with some rules for dogfighting such that the particpants aren't injured and killed, I'd listen.They need to use the Olympic boxing model. I think headgear, mouthpieces, and computer scoring would save lives.

Vick will plead not guilty, until the camera phone pictures show up on the web.

[SharksFan08]

Right...that would be what the millions of dollars in pay is for.

If players don't think it's worth their health, they can quit any time.


Huge contracts get the headlines, but I think you'd be surprised what the average NFL player makes, and how long his career lasts. I think it's about 3 years, last I heard.

I would venture to guess that the lifetime income of the average actuary is comparable to (if not greater than) the lifetime income (from playing football) of the average NFL player.

[Guest]

Alas, another rare common ground for Uma and I. ;)

Hey, it happens. :tup:

[SharksFan08]

Sorry, MTS beat me, AND he has actual statistics.

No wonder he makes the big bucks.

[Guest]

Huge contracts get the headlines, but I think you'd be surprised what the average NFL player makes, and how long his career lasts. I think it's about 3 years, last I heard.

I would venture to guess that the lifetime income of the average actuary is comparable to (if not greater than) the lifetime income (from playing football) of the average NFL player.Right. But when the football career is over, they're still only 25. When the average actuarial career is over, we're ready for dentures.

I do agree that the players union should be taking care of medical/disability needs, and if they're not getting enough now, that should change.

Again - if football players feel they aren't making enough to compensate for their injuries, they're not being forced to play. That's really the only point that matters here.

[Guest]

They need to use the Olympic boxing model. I think headgear, mouthpieces, and computer scoring would save lives.

And lose audience, I bet.

[ShebaPoe]

Sorry, MTS beat me, AND he has actual statistics.

No wonder he makes the big bucks*.


*without bashing my head in. ;)

IFYP

[_BullDog_]

Those medical benefits are not enough to offset the physical demands of a career of concussions, carrying around a dangerously healthy amount of weight, etc. And yet, fans care more about whether their team wins than the human beings on their team.


I feel less concern for the players simply becuase they choose to play, and they can choose not to play.

[kolya23]

It seems unlikely that Vick will get off... on the radio at lunch, someone had a stat about the feds' record in VA (where this occurred), and said that 90% of people plea bargain, and then AFTER that, in the 10% of cases that go to trial, they get a 95% conviction rate. So that leaves 0.5% of people that don't get convicted. Is Vick more likely than average to get off ($$$ = better lawyers)? Sure. But given his celebrity, I'd have to think the feds would be extra extra sure before indicting him.

[kolya23]

I feel less concern for the players simply becuase they choose to play, and they can choose not to play.

Yeah, just catching up on the thread, this is the obvious point. Football players choose to play. I view Vick's crimes as similar to child abuse - sick evil psychopaths who get their jollies by torturing weak creatures that can't fight back. If any of the stuff is true - about him shooting, drowning, electrocuting, and beating dogs to death - the guy deserves the max penalty possible.

[LifeAct]

the guy deserves the max penalty possible.

being traded to the Lions?

[Mayor Adam West]

being traded to the Lions?

:rimshot:

[Westley]

Why can't you guys just admit that this is only being pursued because Vick is black? If Rex Grossman did the same thing, Gooddell would be asking for tickets to come watch the fights.

[Loner]

As to players' medical care:

the average NFL career is under 4 years. The average salary is $900,000.

www.nflpa.org/Faqs/NFL_HopefulsFaq.aspx

Assuming 33% tax and a 4 year career, that's just over $2M earned by age say 26?

The NFL has a tight grip on its players and their salaries; Vick's salary and resources are way beyond the league norm (along with his athletic ability.

The outliers drive that average salary and those outliers tend to have longer careers to boot. If you want to talk about a "typical" four-and-out player, I would expect their salary was a lot closer to the league minimum than that.

[_BullDog_]

The outliers drive that average salary and those outliers tend to have longer careers to boot. If you want to talk about a "typical" four-and-out player, I would expect their salary was a lot closer to the league minimum than that.

New minimum salary scale
Exp. Minimum salary
R $225,000
1 $300,000
2 $375,000
3 $450,000
4-6 *$525,000
7-9 *$650,000
10+ *$750,000

[Mayor Adam West]

All this stuff about salaries and medical expenses is totally missing the point. Sure it's a problem, and there are people lobbying for change right now. How is this at all change the fact that what Vick did is despicable? It's a simple tactic by 0/1 to divert attention from the actual issue here.

[LifeAct]

The outliers drive that average salary and those outliers tend to have longer careers to boot. If you want to talk about a "typical" four-and-out player, I would expect their salary was a lot closer to the league minimum than that.

But the typical four and out player will not have the same long term health problems that a 10-12 year veteran will have.

[Westley]

So, I bet the typical 4-and-out lineman gets between the minimum ($1.35M) and 50% above that. Not bad, but I wonder if people would find that acceptable were these anything other than black boys that white American finds disposable.

[Westley]

It's a simple tactic by 0/1 to divert attention from the actual issue here.
You mean that people are going after Vick because he's black, and particularly because he's a black QB, which people hate because they think high-paid jobs like that should be reserved for whitey?

[ActuaryGuy23]

You mean that people are going after Vick because he's black, and particularly because he's a black QB, which people hate because they think high-paid jobs like that should be reserved for whitey?

I'll see everyone over in political...

[Mayor Adam West]

You mean that people are going after Vick because he's black, and particularly because he's a black QB, which people hate because they think high-paid jobs like that should be reserved for whitey?

Stop fake trolling Westley.

[Westley]

Yeah, 0/1 is better at it, but I gave it my best shot.

[Mayor Adam West]

That's all we really ask. ;)

[SharksFan08]

All this stuff about salaries and medical expenses is totally missing the point. Sure it's a problem, and there are people lobbying for change right now. How is this at all change the fact that what Vick did is despicable? It's a simple tactic by 0/1 to divert attention from the actual issue here.

How many kids with ADD does it take to change a lightbulb?

WANNA RIDE BIKES??

[SharksFan08]

But the typical four and out player will not have the same long term health problems that a 10-12 year veteran will have.

I suspect the reason a lot of players are four-and-out is because they have serious injury problems.

[Westley]

That's all we really ask. ;)
Maybe this one will work better
You mean that people are going after Vick because he's black, and particularly because he's a black QB, which people hate because they think high-paid jobs like that should be reserved for Brady Quinn?

[SharksFan08]

Maybe this one will work better

Yeah, that probably would have done the trick with MAW.

By the way, Mayor Adam West, should we (and by "we" I mean "you and JD") think about getting the AO CFB Top 25 2007 poll up and running? There isn't a lot of football to talk just yet, but I think we should have some time to discuss any structural changes we want to make, and then get a preseason poll up.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

Yeah, just catching up on the thread, this is the obvious point. Football players choose to play. I view Vick's crimes as similar to child abuse - sick evil psychopaths who get their jollies by torturing weak creatures that can't fight back. If any of the stuff is true - about him shooting, drowning, electrocuting, and beating dogs to death - the guy deserves the max penalty possible.

If I didn't know better, I would think P.E.T.A. has taken over the board.

These are not children - they are dogs. Dogs are neglected and killed all the time in pounds. There are so many atrocities far worse in this world being committed against human beings, yet this is what people choose to focus on? Unbelievable. See a bug or rodent that you are annoyed by and most people will kill it without a second thought.

Reminder:
Animals <<<<<<<<< Human Beings
Fictional characters <<<<<<<<< Human Beings

[ShebaPoe]

I suspect the reason a lot of players are four-and-out is because they have serious injury problems.

Yep.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

All this stuff about salaries and medical expenses is totally missing the point. Sure it's a problem, and there are people lobbying for change right now. How is this at all change the fact that what Vick did is despicable?

Can you envision an NFL where the future health of linemen would not be negatively affected by choosing to participate? What about boxing, or ultimate fighting? If you are a fan of any of these sports, you are contributing to the problem.

There is a demand for dog fighting the same way there is a demand for ultimate fighting. Animals do not get to choose their role in life. There are probably lap dogs that would be "happier" herding sheep than warming the crotches of their owners. Maybe the cow that ended up being the hamburger I ate for lunch would have preferred to die of natural causes than slaughtered for my consumption. But I ate it anyway and it was delicious.

[LifeAct]

Can you envision an NFL where the future health of linemen would not be negatively affected by choosing to participate? What about boxing, or ultimate fighting? If you are a fan of any of these sports, you are contributing to the problem.

There is a demand for dog fighting the same way there is a demand for ultimate fighting. Animals do not get to choose their role in life. There are probably lap dogs that would be "happier" herding sheep than warming the crotches of their owners. Maybe the cow that ended up being the hamburger I ate for lunch would have preferred to die of natural causes than slaughtered for my consumption. But I ate it anyway and it was delicious.

lap dog is just abusive as dog fighting. I guess that makes sense.

ultimate fighting - legal
lap dogs - legal
herding sheep - legal
farming - legal
dog fighting - illegal

whether you approve of Michael Vicks actions or not, he broke the law.

[Not Mike]

I suspect the reason a lot of players are four-and-out is because they have serious injury problems.

I don't think that's even close to being true, but I have about as much data to support it as you do.

A lot of players are 4-and-out because they don't have the talent to last longer. A lot of these guys bounce around for a few years, make league minimum, and play special teams - in general, a lot of those guys are "fringe" players to begin with that shouldn't be counting on football to pay the bills.

That also skews the average salary downward quite a bit for the guys that don't face nearly the same punishment as those making the big bucks.

[SharksFan08]

I don't think that's even close to being true, but I have about as much data to support it as you do.

A lot of players are 4-and-out because they don't have the talent to last longer. A lot of these guys bounce around for a few years, make league minimum, and play special teams - in general, a lot of those guys are "fringe" players to begin with that shouldn't be counting on football to pay the bills.

That also skews the average salary downward quite a bit for the guys that don't face nearly the same punishment as those making the big bucks.

Well, Matt the Skywalker agreed with me so I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[LifeAct]

I don't think that's even close to being true, but I have about as much data to support it as you do.

A lot of players are 4-and-out because they don't have the talent to last longer. A lot of these guys bounce around for a few years, make league minimum, and play special teams - in general, a lot of those guys are "fringe" players to begin with that shouldn't be counting on football to pay the bills.

That also skews the average salary downward quite a bit for the guys that don't face nearly the same punishment as those making the big bucks.

I agree with this post, but like you I don't really have any statistics to back it up. I would think that the really problematic long term health effects are caused by 10-15 years of smashing into other people.

[Not Mike]

I agree with this post, but like you I don't really have any statistics to back it up. I would think that the really problematic long term health effects are caused by 10-15 years of smashing into other people.

Yeah, no doubt about that. The guy that's out of the league within a few years due to injuries is typically the guy that blows out his knee/shoulder/etc and never gets back to where he was (or, again, was a fringe player to begin with). That guy is going to have the same "long-term" medical problems that I have.

[Feif]

There is a demand for dog fighting the same way there is a demand for ultimate fighting. Animals do not get to choose their role in life. There are probably lap dogs that would be "happier" herding sheep than warming the crotches of their owners. Maybe the cow that ended up being the hamburger I ate for lunch would have preferred to die of natural causes than slaughtered for my consumption. But I ate it anyway and it was delicious.

So you think torturing animals is ok as long as a person gets some enjoyment from it? I'm not a supporter of animal rights, far from it in fact. I make fun of vegetarians all the time. however, I don't think animals should be tortured. When I eat meat, I know that the animal was killed as painlessly as possible. Watching animals maim and kill each other for sport is disgusting.

[Mayor Adam West]

There is a demand for dog fighting the same way there is a demand for ultimate fighting. Animals do not get to choose their role in life. There are probably lap dogs that would be "happier" herding sheep than warming the crotches of their owners. Maybe the cow that ended up being the hamburger I ate for lunch would have preferred to die of natural causes than slaughtered for my consumption. But I ate it anyway and it was delicious.
This is quite possibly the stupidest argument ever. Because...
...I don't think animals should be tortured. When I eat meat, I know that the animal was killed as painlessly as possible. Watching animals maim and kill each other for sport is disgusting.
Bingo. This isn't about killing animals...you're right, that's done fairly regularly. But it's done with a constructive purpose, like providing food. This is about raising an animal in such a way that it is tortured, starved, and beaten its entire life so that it will grow up to be vicious, and so it will maim another animal so people can gamble on it. And the loser, if they don't die in the ring, gets executed in unspeakably cruel fashion. Just read some of the details of this indictment: dogs were electrocuted, drowned, hanged, and slammed to the ground repeatedly until they were dead...not only if they lost the fight, but also if they weren't "mean enough" to be valueable.

0/1, I hope you're just trolling, because if you are actually saying that there's nothing wrong with this, then you are an even bigger idiot than I already thought. And stop bringing up this bullshit about offensive linemen not getting paid enough or whatever. That has nothing to do with this.

[Mayor Adam West]

By the way, Mayor Adam West, should we (and by "we" I mean "you and JD") think about getting the AO CFB Top 25 2007 poll up and running? There isn't a lot of football to talk just yet, but I think we should have some time to discuss any structural changes we want to make, and then get a preseason poll up.
Ugh. You're right...we didn't start until a few weeks into the season last year, it would be good to get this started before the season actually began this year. I'll start thinking about it.

[Mayor Adam West]

There is another emotional angle to this: dogs are domesticated animals. Lots of people own them as pets, and all of those people can attest to the fact that dogs are a) intelligent, b) have personalities, and c) exhibit emotion. I don't think many people would raise as much of a stink about something like cockfighting (although it's also inhumane) or, I dunno, rat-fighting maybe. Because those animals are less intelligent, not domesticated, and aren't known to show personality. Maybe that's not a horrible rational argument, but the domestication factor is probably THE big reason everyone reacts to dogfighting like they do. We know dogs, we love dogs.

[GosuJohn]

Well, Matt the Skywalker agreed with me so I'm pretty sure I'm right.

True story.

[SharksFan08]

Yeah, no doubt about that. The guy that's out of the league within a few years due to injuries is typically the guy that blows out his knee/shoulder/etc and never gets back to where he was (or, again, was a fringe player to begin with). That guy is going to have the same "long-term" medical problems that I have.

I think there's a middle ground. I'm not saying every guy who plays in the NFL is dealing with severe health consequences for the rest of his life. Sure, there are plenty of fringe special teamers who bounce around a bit and then disappear.

But there are LOTS of O- and D-linemen who play for a few years and then can't cut it anymore because they have health problems. And even if they could still hold up and they're just replaced by a younger, faster, stronger guy, they still likely spent 4 years playing regularly with broken fingers, slipped discs, sprained knees, concussions, etc. etc.

And let's not forget the obscene weight they (queue the freewill speech) "have" to carry. Somehow I doubt a 4-year NFL player has the same long term health problems as you or me.

[Not Mike]

I think there's a middle ground. I'm not saying every guy who plays in the NFL is dealing with severe health consequences for the rest of his life. Sure, there are plenty of fringe special teamers who bounce around a bit and then disappear.

But there are LOTS of O- and D-linemen who play for a few years and then can't cut it anymore because they have health problems. And even if they could still hold up and they're just replaced by a younger, faster, stronger guy, they still likely spent 4 years playing regularly with broken fingers, slipped discs, sprained knees, concussions, etc. etc.

And let's not forget the obscene weight they (queue the freewill speech) "have" to carry. Somehow I doubt a 4-year NFL player has the same long term health problems as you or me.

Sure, but then let's carry this same medical care concern to O- and D-linemen at the college level that never even make it to the NFL. They may have just as major long-term health issues as the averge 4-year-and-out guy and they don't get anything.

[SharksFan08]

Sure, but then let's carry this same medical care concern to O- and D-linemen at the college level that never even make it to the NFL. They may have just as major long-term health issues as the averge 4-year-and-out guy and they don't get anything.

I doubt that on average they'd have the same severity of health issues. A college player who never makes it has played 4 years of college ball. A 4-and-out NFL player has also played 4 years of college ball, and 4 years in the NFL.

But I see your point and I don't disagree. College football generates tremendous revenue. So if the players suffer health consequences, I wouldn't be opposed to them receiving some sort of coverage for it.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

lap dog is just abusive as dog fighting. I guess that makes sense.

ultimate fighting - legal
lap dogs - legal
herding sheep - legal
farming - legal
dog fighting - illegal

whether you approve of Michael Vicks actions or not, he broke the law.

alcohol consumption - legal
marijuana smoking - illegal

Some laws are inconsistent from a logical standpoint. I agree he (allegedly) broke laws. That doesn't mean everyone's (over)reaction to it is rational.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

So you think torturing animals is ok as long as a person gets some enjoyment from it? I'm not a supporter of animal rights, far from it in fact. I make fun of vegetarians all the time. however, I don't think animals should be tortured. When I eat meat, I know that the animal was killed as painlessly as possible. Watching animals maim and kill each other for sport is disgusting.

So do you think boxing and UFC should be illegal as well? What about football?

[LifeAct]

alcohol consumption - legal
marijuana smoking - illegal

Some laws are inconsistent from a logical standpoint. I agree he (allegedly) broke laws. That doesn't mean everyone's (over)reaction to it is rational.

Do you think that animal cruelty laws should be overturned?

Do you think that it should be legal for a person to torture and kill animals?

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

0/1, I hope you're just trolling, because if you are actually saying that there's nothing wrong with this, then you are an even bigger idiot than I already thought. And stop bringing up this bullshit about offensive linemen not getting paid enough or whatever. That has nothing to do with this.

I never said linemen weren't paid enough. Football and some other sports are barbaric - they have negative and dangerous impacts on the health of the participants. Yet, there is less of an uproar over the impact on human beings than sports that feature animals, like dog fighting.

[LifeAct]

I never said linemen weren't paid enough. Football and some other sports are barbaric - they have negative and dangerous impacts on the health of the participants. Yet, there is less of an uproar over the impact on human beings than sports that feature animals, like dog fighting.

Do you think that animal cruelty laws should be overturned?

Do you think that it should be legal for a person to torture and kill animals?

[Mayor Adam West]

I never said linemen weren't paid enough. Football and some other sports are barbaric - they have negative and dangerous impacts on the health of the participants. Yet, there is less of an uproar over the impact on human beings than sports that feature animals, like dog fighting.

What part of people choose to play football and are paid large amounts of money for it do you not understand? Do you really think a guy getting injured playing football -- a sport he is being paid to play, and has maken a choice to play, and had to be better than hundreds of other people desiring to play to get that chance -- is somehow similar to a dog being electrocuted for losing a dogfight?

I'm trying to keep the ad hominem attacks to a bare minimum, but seriously, you're making it really difficult.

Maybe football is barbaric, and should be outlawed (not that I think that, just for the sake of the argument). I don't see how this has anything to do with dogfighting being obviously barbaric and inhumane. You're using a classic "Thing X may be bad, but so is Thing Y, where's your outrage over that" argument. It's just bad rhetoric.

[BallaActuary]

I never said linemen weren't paid enough. Football and some other sports are barbaric - they have negative and dangerous impacts on the health of the participants. Yet, there is less of an uproar over the impact on human beings than sports that feature animals, like dog fighting.


Are you seriously saying you have more sympathy for ConVick because he plays football than the pit bulls he bred and raised to fight? Your trolling is in disgusting taste.

[gosuruss]

I think dog fighting owns.

Some animals are killed. For food. But they are still killed.

The dog fighting operation allows the superior dogs to stay alive, and if they win enough matches then they won't die. The ones who lose are killed. Just like those other animals who were killed. For food.

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

What part of people choose to play football and are paid large amounts of money for it do you not understand? Do you really think a guy getting injured playing football -- a sport he is being paid to play, and has maken a choice to play, and had to be better than hundreds of other people desiring to play to get that chance -- is somehow similar to a dog being electrocuted for losing a dogfight?

I'm trying to keep the ad hominem attacks to a bare minimum, but seriously, you're making it really difficult.

Maybe football is barbaric, and should be outlawed (not that I think that, just for the sake of the argument). I don't see how this has anything to do with dogfighting being obviously barbaric and inhumane. You're using a classic "Thing X may be bad, but so is Thing Y, where's your outrage over that" argument. It's just bad rhetoric.

What kind of rhetoric is calling the poster names, as you have done repeatedly to me?

If you are a fan of the NFL, UFC, or boxing, you are supporting barbaric sporting events. The high salary that the participants receive is an indication of the demands of the fans for a winning team (win at all costs?). And for what? So they can have some pride in a team they feel they are somehow a part of. Totally irrational. Dog fighting may also be barbaric, except for my key point -dogs<<<<<<<humans.

[LifeAct]

What kind of rhetoric is calling the poster names, as you have done repeatedly to me?

If you are a fan of the NFL, UFC, or boxing, you are supporting barbaric sporting events. The high salary that the participants receive is an indication of the demands of the fans for a winning team (win at all costs?). And for what? So they can have some pride in a team they feel they are somehow a part of. Totally irrational. Dog fighting may also be barbaric, except for my key point -dogs<<<<<<<humans.

Yes, dogs are not as valuable as humans. But you are still not making any decent point. Will you stop side-stepping my questions:

Do you think that animal cruelty laws should be overturned?

Do you think that it should be legal for a person to torture and kill animals?

[Mayor Adam West]

I think dog fighting owns.

Some animals are killed. For food. But they are still killed.

The dog fighting operation allows the superior dogs to stay alive, and if they win enough matches then they won't die. The ones who lose are killed. Just like those other animals who were killed. For food.
Please be serious. If you really think a cow or chicken being butchered to make your sandwich is the same as dogs being killed as part of dog fighting, you don't really know all that is involved in dogfighting.
What kind of rhetoric is calling the poster names, as you have done repeatedly to me?
It's called "ad hominem", which I mentioned that I was trying to avoid, to little success. I'm not sure if it's still considered an ad hominem attack if it's true though.

If you are a fan of the NFL, UFC, or boxing, you are supporting barbaric sporting events. The high salary that the participants receive is an indication of the demands of the fans for a winning team (win at all costs?). And for what? So they can have some pride in a team they feel they are somehow a part of. Totally irrational. Dog fighting may also be barbaric, except for my key point -dogs<<<<<<<humans.

I can't believe you're actually trying to argue this. And while it may be true that dogs<<<<<<<<<humans, the cruelty in football<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<the cruelty in dogfighting. And that's completely ignoring the fact that no one is forcing anyone to play football, which you keep seeming to ignore. You don't want to participate in what you consider a barbaric sport, don't play (or watch). Try giving that same choice to a dog, who has been starved as to become aggressive, beaten to become aggressive, and ultimately tossed into a ring with another dog of similar ilk. If it "chooses" not to fight (insofar as any dog can make that choice, given how they've been bred and raised), then they're killed.

[JAS]

there is less of an uproar over the impact on human beings than sports that feature animals, like dog fighting.

Most of the uproar about this case is over the cruelty involved in killing the losing/non-aggresive dogs. If it was just a dog fighting ring without the other stuff, there would be far fewer people in an "uproar."

[Mayor Adam West]

Dammit M.A.W., what am I doing?

Note to self: :pdftt:

[Mayor Adam West]

Most of the uproar about this case is over the cruelty involved in killing the losing/non-aggresive dogs. If it was just a dog fighting ring without the other stuff, there would be far fewer people in an "uproar."

I'm not sure I agree, but the killing of the losing/non-aggressive dogs makes a disgusting act even more despicable.

[Mayor Adam West]

Yes, dogs are not as valuable as humans. But you are still not making any decent point. Will you stop side-stepping my questions:

Do you think that animal cruelty laws should be overturned?

Do you think that it should be legal for a person to torture and kill animals?

He won't answer. He's a troll. His job is just to piss people off by defending an indefensible position using whatever faulty logic possible (in this case, it's vindication by comparison).

[captain booger]

What kind of rhetoric is calling the poster names, as you have done repeatedly to me?

If you are a fan of the NFL, UFC, or boxing, you are supporting barbaric sporting events. The high salary that the participants receive is an indication of the demands of the fans for a winning team (win at all costs?). And for what? So they can have some pride in a team they feel they are somehow a part of. Totally irrational. Dog fighting may also be barbaric, except for my key point -dogs<<<<<<<humans.
you is idiot.
dogs doesn't choose fighting.
owners doesn't kill football players.

[Guest]

The dog fighting operation allows the superior dogs to stay alive, and if they win enough matches then they won't die.
This is absolutely untrue.

They're fought until they lose. Then they're dead.

[SharksFan08]

This is absolutely untrue.

They're fought until they lose. Then they're dead.

I don't think this is going to convince our resident :troll:'s

I bet it's like The Running Man, where the winners go to a tropical island to be rich and happy. Or whatever the equivalent would be for a dog.

[Guest]

I don't think this is going to convince our resident :troll:'s
True...the questionability of the wisdom of keeping a killer dog alive after you're done making profits off it seems lost on him.
I bet it's like The Running Man, where the winners go to a tropical island to be rich and happy. Or whatever the equivalent would be for a dog.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. :tup:

[SharksFan08]

True...the questionability of the wisdom of keeping a killer dog alive after you're done making profits off it seems lost on him.

Well, to be fair, I think it goes both ways. Because his point that "dog fighting owns" was clearly lost on you.

[Guest]

Well, to be fair, I think it goes both ways. Because his point that "dog fighting owns" was clearly lost on you.
It was.

I have no clue what "dog fighting owns" is supposed to mean. Is that gansta-speak or something?

[BallaActuary]

I think dog fighting owns.

Some animals are killed. For food. But they are still killed.

The dog fighting operation allows the superior dogs to stay alive, and if they win enough matches then they won't die. The ones who lose are killed. Just like those other animals who were killed. For food.

I'm not sure who is worse between you and your brother.

[SirVLCIV]

It's called "ad hominem", which I mentioned that I was trying to avoid, to little success. I'm not sure if it's still considered an ad hominem attack if it's true though.

I've agreed with everything you've said in this thread, but just felt like clarifying. the 'ad hominem' fallacy has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the statement itself, but the statement doesn't further the logical argument, and merely tries to demonize the opponent's logical argument (instead of logically rebutting) by demonizing the opponent. Of course, AO discussions rarely qualify as logical debates.

Carry on ;-)

[The New Face of 0 and 1]

Most of the uproar about this case is over the cruelty involved in killing the losing/non-aggresive dogs. If it was just a dog fighting ring without the other stuff, there would be far fewer people in an "uproar."

Decent point. Similar to non-agressive NFL players getting cut from their teams without pay in many ways.

dogs doesn't choose fighting.
owners doesn't kill football players.

Again, animals do not get to "choose" what they do. The ones who do arduous work probably do not particularly enjoy it. Medium sized to large dogs who live in small apartments would probably not "choose" such a living arrangement if they had their say. Most dogs with owners who work all day and make them sit at home alone and hold it would probably not "choose" that life for themselves.

[LifeAct]

Decent point. Similar to non-agressive NFL players getting cut from their teams without pay in many ways.


Actually, it is nothing like that. Now stop being a troll and answer these questions.

Do you think that animal cruelty laws should be overturned?

Do you think that it should be legal for a person to torture and kill animals?

[Sotally Tober]

What I find really reprehensible about Vick...suppose for a moment that you have no issue with dog fighting. you think there's nothing wrong with it. Suppose further, you even think that the only proper thing to do with dogs who aren't ferocious enough to fight, is to kill them. Vick didn't go the vet and have them put down. He didn't even line them up and put bullets in their heads. He sadistically killed them, by means of different & sickening methods, to basically see what it was like for a living creature to die in such a manner. Like it was some kind of science project. IMO, that is a clear sign that Vick is a sick & twisted individual. Capable of worse? Could it escalate? Could he some day treat other human beings in a similar fashion? Honestly, I don't know. But I wouldn't doubt it. Regadless of what happens in this case, I seriously doubt this is the last we'll hear from Vick.

[Mayor Adam West]

I've agreed with everything you've said in this thread, but just felt like clarifying. the 'ad hominem' fallacy has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the statement itself, but the statement doesn't further the logical argument, and merely tries to demonize the opponent's logical argument (instead of logically rebutting) by demonizing the opponent. Of course, AO discussions rarely qualify as logical debates.

Carry on ;-)
Thanks! :tup:
Decent point. Similar to non-agressive NFL players getting cut from their teams without pay in many ways.
Actually, not similar in any conceivable way.
Again, animals do not get to "choose" what they do. The ones who do arduous work probably do not particularly enjoy it. Medium sized to large dogs who live in small apartments would probably not "choose" such a living arrangement if they had their say. Most dogs with owners who work all day and make them sit at home alone and hold it would probably not "choose" that life for themselves.
I'm guessing that if given the choice to sit around and lick their balls all day in a small apartment, or be repeatedly slammed to the ground until they're dead, they'd probably choose the former.
What I find really apprehensible about Vick...suppose for a moment that you have no issue with dog fighting. you think there's nothing wrong with it. Suppose further, you even think that the only proper thing to do with dogs who aren't ferocious enough to fight, is to kill them. Vick didn't go the vet and have them put down. He didn't even line them up and put bullets in their heads. He sadistically killed them, by means of different & sickening methods, to basically see what it was like for a living creature to die in such a manner. Like it was some kind of science project. IMO, that is a clear sign that Vick is a sick & twisted individual. Capable of worse? Could it escalate? Could he some day treat other human beings in a similar fashion? Honestly, I don't know. But I wouldn't doubt it. Regadless of what happens in this case, I seriously doubt this is the last we'll hear from Vick.
ITA.

[LifeAct]

I'm guessing that if given the choice to sit around and lick their balls all day in a small apartment, or be repeatedly slammed to the ground until they're dead, they'd probably choose the former.


you're missing the point.

herding sheep >>> living with a loving family
Therefore, dog fighting is okay.

[Mayor Adam West]

you're missing the point.

herding sheep >>> living with a loving family
Therefore, dog fighting is okay.

Mah bad. :oops:

[SharksFan08]

What I find really apprehensible about Vick...suppose for a moment that you have no issue with dog fighting. you think there's nothing wrong with it. Suppose further, you even think that the only proper thing to do with dogs who aren't ferocious enough to fight, is to kill them. Vick didn't go the vet and have them put down. He didn't even line them up and put bullets in their heads. He sadistically killed them, by means of different & sickening methods, to basically see what it was like for a living creature to die in such a manner. Like it was some kind of science project. IMO, that is a clear sign that Vick is a sick & twisted individual. Capable of worse? Could it escalate? Could he some day treat other human beings in a similar fashion? Honestly, I don't know. But I wouldn't doubt it. Regadless of what happens in this case, I seriously doubt this is the last we'll hear from Vick.

I couldn't agree more, the only issue I take with your post is that Vick hasn't yet been convicted of anything. If it's all true, then I hope they throw the book at him. But your post is missing the word "allegedly" in several places.

I'm just tired of people being tried in the court of public opinion, and on ESPN. Is John Clayton's viewpoint really relevant on this?

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

I for one am surprised that the president hasn't been in this thread cheering the killing of pit bulls.

Or at the very least recognize that these dogs are being trained to maul other animals.

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

I couldn't agree more, the only issue I take with your post is that Vick hasn't yet been convicted of anything. If it's all true, then I hope they throw the book at him. But your post is missing the word "allegedly" in several places.

I'm just tired of people being tried in the court of public opinion, and on ESPN. Is John Clayton's viewpoint really relevant on this?
This is ridiculous. They are public figures who earn a living off of public opinion. We have every right to form an opinion regardless of what the laws say.

[foghorn]

Or at the very least recognize that these dogs are being trained to maul other animals.

These dogs do not need training to maul other animals. If anything, they are just being trained to do it better.

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

These dogs do not need training to maul other animals. If anything, they are just being trained to do it better.
No carnivore needs training on how to kill. What is your point. They are still training them.

[whisper]

If Vick is guilty of any of this, he deserves everything he gets.

No matter what you think about dog fighting, Vick has put his life as a professional football player in jeapordy over it. For some reason, I think the life style and opportunities that being a professional football player dwarfs anything that dog-fighting could offer Vick.

---

Personally, I hope that he's not guilty. Although I think he's a lousy quarterback, he is still a great football player - it would be a shame for us to miss seeing Vick play because he couldn't avoid being entangled in this.

[SharksFan08]

This is ridiculous. They are public figures who earn a living off of public opinion. We have every right to form an opinion regardless of what the laws say.

Sure, have a ball. That caused a really great outcome for some Duke lacrosse players and coaches.

You have a right to form whatever opinion you want about whatever you want. In my opinion, I'm tired of people being tried by media buzz rather than evidence.

[whisper]

No carnivore needs training on how to kill. What is your point. They are still training them.

Technically speaking, dogs aren't carnivores - they're omnivores like us.

The training is necessary because hunters rarely face off against healthy opponents.

[Feif]

Personally, I hope that he's not guilty. Although I think he's a lousy quarterback, he is still a great football player - it would be a shame for us to miss seeing Vick play because he couldn't avoid being entangled in this.

He couldn't avoid it? Of course he could have avoided it. He (possibly) chose not to.

[LifeAct]

Personally, I hope that he's not guilty. Although I think he's a lousy quarterback, he is still a great football player - it would be a shame for us to miss seeing Vick play because he couldn't avoid being entangled in this.

You could say these same things about Marcus.

It's kind of ironic now that this is all coming out. Back when Marcus was at VT he spent the summer with Michael in hopes of turning his life around. I guess that we shouldn't be surprised that it didn't work.

[foghorn]

The training is necessary because hunters rarely face off against healthy opponents.

Wow. I think I need more explanation on this one.

[whisper]

He couldn't avoid it? Of course he could have avoided it. He (possibly) chose not to.

Assuming he's connected, he may have had the opportunity to avoid this. He could have walked away years ago. He could have immediately gone to the authorities when the story broke and it was still a state investigations and plea bargain and cooperate and get out from in front of the firing squad.

Now, its too late to avoid the consequences. Bad things are coming if he's guilty.

[foghorn]

No carnivore needs training on how to kill. What is your point. They are still training them.

My point was to correct the misstatement so as to avoid anyone being confused or misled.

[whisper]

Wow. I think I need more explanation on this one.

Well, think about a wolf pack. When a wolf is vying for dominance of the pack, there may be a face off between the current alpha and the upstart. Even if it the confrontation ends up in violence, rarely does it end up with one of the wolves being severely maimed or killed - especially considering how much damage the winner would suffer to go that far. The winner would just be an easy target and taken out by an upstart that didn't join the 1st confrontation.

The instincts of the dogs is to surrender before getting to the level of violence that the dog fights want. Part of the training is to teach the dogs to do such serious injury to another animal. The other part of the training is to teach the dog to do serious injury to another animal while possibly being injured severly themselves.

[foghorn]

The instincts of the dogs is to surrender before getting to the level of violence that the dog fights want.


I don't believe this to be true. The instincts of these dogs (pit bulls) is to fight until death.

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

I don't believe this to be true. The instincts of these dogs (pit bulls) is to fight until death.

I think you are wrong. Pitbulls do not by nature fight until the death.

[foghorn]

I think you are wrong. Pitbulls do not by nature fight until the death.


I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.

[BallaActuary]

I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.


From where? The media looking for a :qunq: big :qunq: news story?

[BallaActuary]

I don't believe this to be true. The instincts of these dogs (pit bulls) is to fight until death.


The 85 pound, pure muscle blue nose pitbull that lives on my street has yet to A) kill my dog B) kill the 20 pound floofy dog it lives with and C) kill any person.
Did you know the pitbull scored higher than a beagle on the temperament test given by the ATTS? It's sad that the only time my dog has been involved in any kind of "fighting" is when a beagle latched onto it's nose and wouldn't let go, leaving me with one hell of a vet bill. Yet, my dog plays with this :qunq: killer :qunq: pit bull all the time and has absolutely no problems whatsoever.
Maybe you've had a bad experience with a pit before, but I bet 90% of the general population that says "Let's ban all pits" has never even been near one in real life and forms opinions straight out of ignorance.


http://www.atts.org/stats1.html

[ShebaPoe]

I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.

My g/f rescued a pit bull puppy, around 9 months old. We have seen no evidence of ferocity or desire to fight. The pit bull is very energetic and likes to run, is very playful, and all that. The pit bull has been around lots of dogs and kids without a single instance of aggression.

Not once.

[whisper]

I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.

:aypi:

Nobody claimed that pitbulls wouldn't hunt and kill without training.

[foghorn]

:aypi:

Nobody claimed that pitbulls wouldn't hunt and kill without training.

So if they do it without training, and it's not instinct (which it is but you claim it's not), then why do they hunt and kill?

[foghorn]

From where? The media looking for a :qunq: big :qunq: news story?

I don't understand these questions? Were they addressed to me?

[foghorn]

Maybe you've had a bad experience with a pit before

No, I haven't had any bad experiences with pit bulls.

[foghorn]

My g/f rescued a pit bull puppy, around 9 months old. We have seen no evidence of ferocity or desire to fight. The pit bull is very energetic and likes to run, is very playful, and all that. The pit bull has been around lots of dogs and kids without a single instance of aggression.

Not once.

Good. :roll:

[BallaActuary]

I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.

From where? The media looking for a :qunq: big :qunq: news story?

I don't understand these questions? Were they addressed to me?


So, you've never actually been around a pitbull?

[whisper]

So if they do it without training, and it's not instinct (which it is but you claim it's not), then why do they hunt and kill?

The problem is you can't seem to understand that there is a difference between hunting and killing and dog-fighting.

The dogs in the ring aren't hunting their opponents. They're battling them. Hunting is relatively natural behavior for dogs. Battling to the death is not a natural behavior for dogs.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.They hunted and killed other pit bulls? Wolves hunt and kill, but don't hunt and kill other wolves.

[Griffin 6]

They hunted and killed other pit bulls? Wolves hunt and kill, but don't hunt and kill other wolves.

http://kenai.fws.gov/overview/notebook/2002/nov/15nov2002.htm
But most wolves never reach such a ripe old age to become white. On the Kenai Peninsula, humans kill most wolves before they are 10 years old, and sometimes wolves kill other wolves. Our telemetry data indicated that only rarely does a wolf on the Kenai die of the complications associated with "old age." One of the seven Kenai wolves that turned white was at least 12 years old and one at least 8 years old. Some of the gray and black wolves that turned white elsewhere in North America were also very old wolves.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

http://kenai.fws.gov/overview/notebook/2002/nov/15nov2002.htm
Of course there are exceptions. But it's not an instinctive behavior they do "several times, without exception".

[Guest]

I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.
In what context?

Hunt and kill what, exactly?

[Guest]

http://kenai.fws.gov/overview/notebook/2002/nov/15nov2002.htm

So, sometimes young healthy wolves kill old wolves.

That supports the point that hunters generally do not kill other healthy hunters.

[Uncle Darryl]

That supports the point that hunters generally do not kill other healthy hunters.What about Cheney?

[LifeAct]

What about Cheney?

:lolup:

[foghorn]

So, you've never actually been around a pitbull?


What part of "I've seen young pitbulls hunt and kill without ever having fought or having seen a fight before. Several times, without exception.", leads you to this conclusion?

In response to that, your question was "from where"? I need more words in that question. Did you mean "From where did you see young pitbulls hunt and kill....?"

I guess the answer to that is from the place I was standing when they were hunting and killing. Do you want a state, coordinates, town name, ranch name, etc.?

[foghorn]

The problem is you can't seem to understand that there is a difference between hunting and killing and dog-fighting.



No, the problem is your reading much more into my statements than is there.

[foghorn]

They hunted and killed other pit bulls?

No, that was not the statment nor the implication. Read my post in context to prior posts.

[foghorn]

In what context?

Hunt and kill what, exactly?

Wild boar.

[Hagbard Celine]

Wolves kill other wolves to strengthen the pack by weeding out its weakest members. It is execution, not hunting or fighting.

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

Wild boar.

Not that I doubt your experience, but how big was the wild boar? No way in hell could my Pit take down a full grown healthy wild boar. Not even if I gave her a .22

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

The 85 pound, pure muscle blue nose pitbull that lives on my street has yet to A) kill my dog B) kill the 20 pound floofy dog it lives with and C) kill any person.
Did you know the pitbull scored higher than a beagle on the temperament test given by the ATTS? It's sad that the only time my dog has been involved in any kind of "fighting" is when a beagle latched onto it's nose and wouldn't let go, leaving me with one hell of a vet bill. Yet, my dog plays with this :qunq: killer :qunq: pit bull all the time and has absolutely no problems whatsoever.
Maybe you've had a bad experience with a pit before, but I bet 90% of the general population that says "Let's ban all pits" has never even been near one in real life and forms opinions straight out of ignorance.


http://www.atts.org/stats1.html
Just for a good story. My Pit has lived in a house with a snake (that got loose for a year) and a rabbit (that had free range in our home, but not at the same time the snake was loose) and two small children.

The only injuries between them were to the pit. She was bit by the rabbit a number of times (until we moved the rabbit outside) and had her ears and tail tugged on my the children.

Not once has she shown any sign of aggression. But we expected this, with her temperament test coming back with such good grades.

The only injuries

[foghorn]

Not that I doubt your experience, but how big was the wild boar? No way in hell could my Pit take down a full grown healthy wild boar. Not even if I gave her a .22


Big, and it's been numerous times. You'd be surprised. They know how.

[Guest]

Wild boar.

I assume you're talking about a pack of hunting dogs?

[Hagbard Celine]

Big, and it's been numerous times. You'd be surprised. They know how.

They were initially bred to latch onto bull's snouts and hold on...it's why they are sometimes (mistakenly) thought to have "lockjaw."

Did you witness the pits actually kill the boar, or do something similar to this:

http://www.dardenhoghunts.com/hunting/index.html

Once bayed, and assuming that the goal is to catch the hog, two pit bulls or catch dogs are turned loose not more than 50 yards from the bayed hog. Rarely do the two catch dogs get to the hog at the same time. It is not unusual for the hog to hit the first dog only to find the second attached to his ear or cheek. At this point, the first catch dog latches on to the pig’s head from the opposite side. Two pit pulls on a hogs face tend to give one a measure of confidence when it comes time to hog tie the animal.

As a group of men encounter the hog bayed, some have the job of tying up the bay dogs to nearby trees to get them out of the way. Others hobble the pig’s front right foot to the back left and to do the same to the other two feet. Once the pig is on his back and hog tied, the pit bulls needs to be pried loose, chained up, and the snout is securely tied. At this point, the animal can be lifted onto a four wheeler and tied securely for transport to a mobile cage where he is untied and placed inside.

[Guest]

No, that was not the statment nor the implication. Read my post in context to prior posts.

Then your point is irrelevant.

The argument is not that dogs don't instinctively hunt prey in a pack.

The argument is that a dog will not attack a healthy animal by itself, ESPECIALLY not another healthy dog.

This behavior - as is necessary in dogfighting - must be trained.

[Mayor Adam West]

This thread has gotten confusing.

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

This thread has gotten confusing.
True, lets get back to the original discussion.

Vick deserves to lose all of his sponsorships and may even deserve to be suspended from the team. Even though he may be innocent, his supporters are losing money from being associated with him and his team may be losing focus going into the season.

If he is found guilty, the league has no choice but to permanently ban him.

[foghorn]

They were initially bred to latch onto bull's snouts and hold on...it's why they are sometimes (mistakenly) thought to have "lockjaw."

Did you witness the pits actually kill the boar, or do something similar to this:

http://www.dardenhoghunts.com/hunting/index.html

I've seen both, mostly the former.

[foghorn]

Then your point is irrelevant.

The argument is not that dogs don't instinctively hunt prey in a pack.

The argument is that a dog will not attack a healthy animal by itself, ESPECIALLY not another healthy dog.

This behavior - as is necessary in dogfighting - must be trained.


If my point is irrelevant, so be it. I was merely correcting the misstatement that "pit bulls do not by nature fight until death". They do. Also, I am not intending to be in an argument, if I came across argumentative I apologize, I'm just stating facts.

[foghorn]

a dog will not attack a healthy animal by itself


Not true.

[Mayor Adam West]

True, lets get back to the original discussion.

Vick deserves to lose all of his sponsorships and may even deserve to be suspended from the team. Even though he may be innocent, his supporters are losing money from being associated with him and his team may be losing focus going into the season.

If he is found guilty, the league has no choice but to permanently ban him.

Looks like Nike is already hedging its bets. He had a new shoe being released in August; that release has been "suspended" pending the findings of the case.

:link: (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290075,00.html)

I think that the Falcons could suspend him from the team for "conduct detrimental to the team" like Tampa did with Meshawn a few years ago; but since he's the starting QB and not a washed up WR, I have the feeling that won't happen. I'm curious as to what the reaction of Atlanta fans will be; I look to the example of Barry Bonds and SF fans to see how forgiving fans can be of a player on their own team, if he's good. Arthur Blank is in a pretty tough spot. If he suspends Vick and he's found not guilty, he'll look REALLY bad...they'll have the mark of being a team that doesn't support its players. If he doesn't suspend Vick and the team loses a few games, and THEN he suspends him, then it'll look like he was only doing it because he wasn't winning. If he doesn't suspend him at all, Vick will be booed ferociously at every away game, and probably at home games too. It's a tough spot.

[foghorn]

I think that the Falcons could suspend him from the team for "conduct detrimental to the team" like Tampa did with Meshawn a few years ago; but since he's the starting QB and not a washed up WR, I have the feeling that won't happen. I'm curious as to what the reaction of Atlanta fans will be; I look to the example of Barry Bonds and SF fans to see how forgiving fans can be of a player on their own team, if he's good. Arthur Blank is in a pretty tough spot. If he suspends Vick and he's found not guilty, he'll look REALLY bad...they'll have the mark of being a team that doesn't support its players. If he doesn't suspend Vick and the team loses a few games, and THEN he suspends him, then it'll look like he was only doing it because he wasn't winning. If he doesn't suspend him at all, Vick will be booed ferociously at every away game, and probably at home games too. It's a tough spot.


Good analysis. IMO, they should try to do the police officer route and give him suspension with pay, until further notice (like a verdict or settlement or some such), then make a decision. I'm not sure what kind of option they have for this though.

[whisper]

If my point is irrelevant, so be it. I was merely correcting the misstatement that "pit bulls do not by nature fight until death". They do. Also, I am not intending to be in an argument, if I came across argumentative I apologize, I'm just stating facts.

I think there might be some confusion about this sentence and to whom the death refers to.

Pit bulls do not by nature fight until death [for their prey], is a false statement. Dogs are hunting pack animals and can hunt and kill.

Pit bull do not by nature fight until death [for themselves], is not a false statement. The "winner" of a dog fight can be is severly injured.

[whisper]

Good analysis. IMO, they should try to do the police officer route and give him suspension with pay, until further notice (like a verdict or settlement or some such), then make a decision. I'm not sure what kind of option they have for this though.

Vick could "volunteer" to do this. (Most likely on advice of counsel.)

[foghorn]

I think there might be some confusion about this sentence and to whom the death refers to.
agreed

Pit bulls do not by nature fight until death [for their prey], is a false statement. Dogs are hunting pack animals and can hunt and kill.
agreed

Pit bull do not by nature fight until death [for themselves], is not a false statement.
Disagreed. I've seen them fight a boar until they (the dog) died. I've never seen one surrender (which you indicated to be their nature). Not once.

[Mayor Adam West]

Vick could "volunteer" to do this. (Most likely on advice of counsel.)

Yeah, that's what they mentioned on PTI yesterday, that he could take a leave of absence to focus on the case, and the Falcons could do that and still pay him if they so chose. I imagine the only way Vick would do that would be if he was still getting paid; no way does he self-suspend without pay. He makes way too much to do that. This seems like it would be a kind-of best case scenario; it takes the pressure off of the Falcons to make a decision about this; and if he's found not guilty, it's a good PR move for Vick. If he's found guilty, he has bigger concerns.

[Zee]

What I find really apprehensible about Vick...suppose for a moment .....

I know you claim to be completely tober and all, but did you really mean to use the word "apprehensible"? Were you maybe at least a little bent when you wrote it? :wink:

[E. Blackadder]

I know you claim to be completely tober and all, but did you really mean to use the word "apprehensible"? Were you maybe at least a little bent when you wrote it? :wink:

Apprehensible... I like that word.

[foghorn]

Apprehensible... I like that word.

http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?p=2210062#post2210062

[ShebaPoe]

Yeah, that's what they mentioned on PTI yesterday, that he could take a leave of absence to focus on the case, and the Falcons could do that and still pay him if they so chose. I imagine the only way Vick would do that would be if he was still getting paid; no way does he self-suspend without pay. He makes way too much to do that. This seems like it would be a kind-of best case scenario; it takes the pressure off of the Falcons to make a decision about this; and if he's found not guilty, it's a good PR move for Vick. If he's found guilty, he has bigger concerns.

I suppose his contract does not have a moral turpitude clause?

I think Blank will do his own investigation and use the results to "discuss" Vick's decision; if Blank finds that there is a lot of evidence against Vick, then that will probably be the end of Vick's career in Atlanta.

[Sotally Tober]

I know you claim to be completely tober and all, but did you really mean to use the word "apprehensible"? Were you maybe at least a little bent when you wrote it? :wink:
:lol: Fingers moving, brain not working. The norm. Fixed. Thanks for catching it.

Because combining two words in your head doesn't mean the workd that comes out will mean the right thing. Case in point...

ap·pall·ing
ADJECTIVE:
Causing consternation or dismay; frightful: appalling working conditions; appalling violence.

plus

rep·re·hen·si·ble
ADJECTIVE:
Deserving rebuke or censure; blameworthy. See Synonyms at blameworthy.

<>

ap·pre·hen·si·ble
ADJECTIVE:
Capable of being understood: apprehensible truths.

[Bob the Dog]

Co-defendant pleads guilty (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aYa0smovM7n4&refer=home), says Vick was the money man. Will co-operate with feds without a deal in place.

In case you're keeping score at home, Bob, being a dog, has no love for any of these punks.

[LifeAct]

Can't they get Vick for tax evasion?

[whisper]

Can't they get Vick for tax evasion?

Probably, but that is usually used for those that they can't get for the crime they are actually committing. Tax evasion for mobs and gang lords.

[whisper]

If Vick is involved, I just don't see why he didn't go to the police from the start and cooperate from the start. He would be in so much a better position if he cooperated than he is now, with his associates flipping on him.

[_BullDog_]

If Vick is involved, I just don't see why he didn't go to the police from the start and cooperate from the start. He would be in so much a better position if he cooperated than he is now, with his associates flipping on him.

He believed those around him that said he would not be charged with any crime.

[whisper]

He believed those around him that said he would not be charged with any crime.

Unless he had immunity granted by the government, I just don't see how reasonable it would be to assume that he wasn't going to be charged with the government actively investigating his property - especially if he was involved in the dog-fighting scene.

[_BullDog_]

Unless he had immunity granted by the government, I just don't see how reasonable it would be to assume that he wasn't going to be charged with the government actively investigating his property - especially if he was involved in the dog-fighting scene.

No one ever claimed he was really bright.

[jingle47]

I claim this is all part of his Grand Old plan......just wait until the "Gotcha" moment!!

[Sotally Tober]

His other 2 co-defendants flipping can't be a good sign for Vick, can it? I think that's what the box that has people talking to me in my living told me tonight.

:popcorn:

[Sotally Tober]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2972161

Yup, it is what I heard.

[jets fan]

A source close to the investigation told Naqi that Vick has until Friday to make up his mind whether to accept a plea agreement. Otherwise a superseding indictment will be filed and Vick will face at least two more federal dogfighting charges.

If this is true then either way, Friday will see a lot of Vick news!

[MountainHawk]

Read somewhere where there may be racketering charges as well ... he's going to have to plead this one out, I think, the question is whether he can talk his way out of jail time.

[_BullDog_]

Read somewhere where there may be racketering charges as well ... he's going to have to plead this one out, I think, the question is whether he can talk his way out of jail time.


In a Richmond, Va., court in late July, Vick pleaded not guilty to conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities, and conspiring to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. He said in a written statement that he looked forward to "clearing my good name." He also pleaded with the public to resist a rush to judgment.

but he is innocent......

[tommie frazier]

pleading with the public not to rush to judgment? can we do that retroactively, so we can start with the premise that he's an exciting, but not ready for nfl greatness qb?

[douglan]

:popcorn:

the only question is how much jail time he gets. I don't think the feds will let him off without jail time unless he has a ton of information on other folks the feds want.

[LifeAct]

The problem with Vick entering into a plea agreement, is that he will end up guilty of something. If he "admits guilt" to any of the charges, his NFL career could be over.

[tommie frazier]

would it? if he does 2 years or something that short, he'll still be relatively young when he gets out. if he expresses the required remorse, someone would take a chance on him.

if it's 6 years, then I agree with you 100%.

[LifeAct]

He isn't that good of an NFL QB to begin with.

And someone taking a chance on him would mean that he is making pretty much the league minimum, so a plea bargain will cost him millions of dollars.

Not to mention the fact that the new commissioner believes in punishment. He may face a year suspension beyond any jail time.

[win diesel]

Hope he had fun playing with the dogs. What a dope.

[BallaActuary]

Hope he had fun playing with the dogs. What a dope.

win, I loved your old pit/Vick avatar. The women avatars were also great. The old dude... not so great.

[BallaActuary]

I wonder if Portis is still going to his dog fights.

[win diesel]

win, I loved your old pit/Vick avatar. The women avatars were also great. The old dude... not so great.

lol Just changing it up. Its Larry David, who is greatly misunderstood. I am misunderstood in the poker forum...

But I'll get a hot young sloot back up probably sooner than later.

[Not Mike]

He isn't that good of an NFL QB to begin with.

That was the case before he signed a $130 million deal. Didn't seem to matter too much then.

[LifeAct]

That was the case before he signed a $130 million deal. Didn't seem to matter too much then.

He also wasn't a convicted felon at that point. A player who has only shown potential, cannot afford to have character issues, and felonies on their record.

[MooBeay]

Only potential? He has led his team to the NFC championship once, and has a playoff win from another season. He has also rushed for over 900 yards twice.

I'm not saying he's the best, nor does he deserve to be paid like the best, but only potential seems a little stiff. He still has a career winning record I believe.

[LifeAct]

Only potential? He has led his team to the NFC championship once, and has a playoff win from another season. He has also rushed for over 900 yards twice.

I'm not saying he's the best, nor does he deserve to be paid like the best, but only potential seems a little stiff. He still has a career winning record I believe.

Perhaps "potential" is a bad choice of words, but I still don't think that he is very good.

double digit interceptions in each of the past 3 years.
No 3000 yard seasons
54% career completion percentage

Sure he can run, but running QBs don't make good NFL QB's.

[MooBeay]

Perhaps "potential" is a bad choice of words, but I still don't think that he is very good.

double digit interceptions in each of the past 3 years.
No 3000 yard seasons
54% career completion percentage

Sure he can run, but running QBs don't make good NFL QB's.

Peyton manning has double digit interceptions in all but 1 year. he never through all that much to get 3000 yard seasons. steve young ran a lot, was he any good?

[MountainHawk]

Peyton manning has double digit interceptions in all but 1 year. he never through all that much to get 3000 yard seasons. steve young ran a lot, was he any good?
Steve Young didn't run a lot, he was just good at running.

[LifeAct]

Peyton manning has double digit interceptions in all but 1 year. he never through all that much to get 3000 yard seasons. steve young ran a lot, was he any good?

In hindsight, the interceptions stat is not very telling.

Steve Young was a career 64% passer. He also had a 2-1 TD-Int ratio. He also had more than 500 yards rushing 1 time, he passed first and ran second. A QBs job is to throw the ball to the reciever. Steve Young was very good at that, and Micheal Vick is not.

[_BullDog_]

Only potential? He has led his team to the NFC championship once, and has a playoff win from another season. He has also rushed for over 900 yards twice.

I'm not saying he's the best, nor does he deserve to be paid like the best, but only potential seems a little stiff. He still has a career winning record I believe.

Why is it always assumed the quarterback did the leading?

[MountainHawk]

Young 722 carries in 169 games = 4.3 carries per game
Vick 529 carries in 74 games = 7.2 carries per game

[MooBeay]

In hindsight, the interceptions stat is not very telling.

Steve Young was a career 64% passer. He also had a 2-1 TD-Int ratio. He also had more than 500 yards rushing 1 time, he passed first and ran second. A QBs job is to throw the ball to the reciever. Steve Young was very good at that, and Micheal Vick is not.

A QBs job is to move the chains and help win football games. Michael vick has more passing attempts than rushes, so he passes first and runs second also.


After 6 years in the league Steve Young had 34-27 TD:INT ratio and was completing about 56% of his passes.

[LifeAct]

Michael vick has more passing attempts than rushes, so he passes first and runs second also.
:crazy:


After 6 years in the league Steve Young had 34-27 TD:INT ratio and was completing about 56% of his passes.

After 6 years in the league, Young was still a back-up QB.

[douglan]

Anyone brave enough to waste a late-round pick on Vick in your league's fantasy draft? ;)

[MountainHawk]

Anyone brave enough to waste a late-round pick on Vick in your league's fantasy draft? ;)
late round! he's my keeper, baby! We get 100 pts per felony conviction, and 50 per misdemeanor. (It's a league I'm in with some of the Cincinnati Bengals. ;-) )

[LifeAct]

Anyone brave enough to waste a late-round pick on Vick in your league's fantasy draft? ;)

I would use a late round pick if I've already filled out my starters, and backup QB, RB, and WR. He gets a lot of rushing yards which pads scores in fantasy football.

[MooBeay]

:crazy:



After 6 years in the league, Young was still a back-up QB.

Minus his second season in the league...or that he still had 50 some games to his credit. The point being its possible Vick could improve.

[rawl316]

He isn't that good of an NFL QB to begin with.

And someone taking a chance on him would mean that he is making pretty much the league minimum, so a plea bargain will cost him millions of dollars.

Not to mention the fact that the new commissioner believes in punishment. He may face a year suspension beyond any jail time.

he's already banked like 50 mil, so I don't think money is the issue.

regardless of how much time he spends in jail, or suspension, I just can't picture a team taking a chance on him. the negative backlash from their fan base, along with the never-ending protests alone is not worth the headache.

[MooBeay]

he's already banked like 50 mil, so I don't think money is the issue.

regardless of how much time he spends in jail, or suspension, I just can't picture a team taking a chance on him. the negative backlash from their fan base, along with the never-ending protests alone is not worth the headache.

I agree. And he's the QB, which is the face of the franchise for most teams. They could sneak him back in if he played a lower profile position.

Although, he does appear to come across not so bright, not sure how much of that money might be left.

[BallaActuary]

I agree. And he's the QB, which is the face of the franchise for most teams. They could sneak him back in if he played a lower profile position.

Although, he does appear to come across not so bright, not sure how much of that money might be left.

Like how Marcus Vick went from QB at VA Tech to WR with the Dolphins. :lol:

[General Apathy]

A WR who returned kicks!!

[MooBeay]

Like how Marcus Vick went from QB at VA Tech to WR with the Dolphins. :lol:

My comment was on PR issues, not whether Vick could play another position.

[Not Mike]

Only potential? He has led his team to the NFC championship once, and has a playoff win from another season. He has also rushed for over 900 yards twice.

I'm not saying he's the best, nor does he deserve to be paid like the best, but only potential seems a little stiff. He still has a career winning record I believe.

Anyone have any idea what Warrick Dunn's career winning percentage is? I believe it may be better than Barry Sanders. The guy is simply a winner. Just like Kordell Stewart. And Kyle Orton.