Dan Issel

[Mick Fan]

Whaddya think about this Dan Issel situation? I think it was very stupid what he said and he got what he deserved.

I think a four-game suspension is sufficient. Firing him should be out of the question. For a "first-time" offender (and something said in the heat of the battle), the punishment fits the crime.

[Anonymous]

What if he had just called the guy a piece of sh*t? Would that command a 4 game suspension?

[Han Solo]

What if he had substituted "Irish" into his rather weak comeback? Would that still be considered racist?

Still, four games is a good suspension. And I must say the Nuggets are probably better off without him.

[Anonymous]

That's exactly where I was going...

Since when is 'Mexican' a racial slur?

[Laffit Pincay, Jr.]

With 10,000+ live witnesses as well as being on camera it can only be taken as a slur. He got off easy.

[Mr. Grim]

What is the story?

[Mick Fan]

Good point, Maniac. I guess it was termed more of an "ethnic" slur than a "racial" slur.

The trouble is, he's a representative of the Nuggets, and you don't do that to your fans. If a senior VP of an insurance company says something like that, he'd be dealt with harshly as well.

I disagree that he got off easy. A four game suspension without pay is losing about 5% of his salary. He didn't deserve to get fired for it.

[jets fan]

Grim, take a look:

http://msn.espn.go.com/nba/news/2001/1213/1295410.html

[Anonymous]

Actually, I don't feel the point is so much racial vs. ethnic, but rather the idea that 'Mexican' is any kind of slur. Are we saying it's insulting to be called a Mexican?

I'm open to having this explained to me...

[Anonymous]

It's insulting to be called a mainiac

[Han Solo]

Maybe it's something along the lines of the man he called a Mexican is actually an American?

[Patience]

calling someone a S**t is not a slur, just an insult.

calling someone a ----- S**t (fill in the blank) is a slur. It equates their actions to their heritage. or assumed heritage.

He represents the Nuggets, even more so than the players and is I believe the punishment is appropriate. & the issue should be over.

If he just used profanity, it probably would have been just a fine, and little publicity.

I am curious what the drunk in the stands said that set Issle off like that.

[Laffit Pincay, Jr.]

He called him a Mexican *******. Not just a Mexican. Making it sound like he would call all Mexicans a *******. Plus the part about drink another beer, implying a drunkeness trait to Mexicans.

Denver's racial tensions are between whites and hispanics. Imagine the Detroit or Washington D.C. coach calling a home fan a black *******. And then saying something like eat another watermelon.

Even if he doesn't really feel that way he needs to watch what he says even when angry. Take a lesson from coach Knight. You don't get three chances anymore when you're a public figure.

At least he apologized which is a step in the right direction. Saying he did nothing wrong as some here imply says a lot about the racial divides we have in this country. We keep putting out the fires with gasoline.

update edit:
Patience got his post in before me so I'm sorry for being redundant. Also the fan was hispanic.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Laffit Pincay, Jr. on 2001-12-14 15:27 ]</font>

[Patience]

btw, I don't believe the beer comment was because he was Mexican, but because he was drunk.

[Mr. Grim]

Sounds eerily familiar to the Calipari incident in New Jersey

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

Does anyone here believe there wouldn't be just as many hysterical people if he had said "Get out of here, you Mexican!"? They'd call that a racial slur too.

[Rockhound]

The point is we're not supposed to recognize anyone's race or ethnicity unless we're creating a program of handout's or set-asides, then it it the only thing we are to recognize.

[Anonymous]

Rockhound,

Go work on your grammatical skills you Republican A******!

[Rockhound]

So very tolerant of you, and so nice of you to remind everyone that conservatives are another non-protected group.

[Patience]

why do they need protection the conservatives have all the guns

[treyso]

I just think it was a terrible ploy by that drunk-a$$ to get on Sportscenter. Did you see the interview with that guy? He probably deserved to be talked back to. He told the coach, "you suck." and I am sure it got a little worse. Then the guy got something back from Issel and he yelled back somemore comments about how he sucks. Then out came the "slur" and he was oh so offended. Ba-hum-bug

[Weatherman]

On 2001-12-14 12:51, Mainiac wrote:
Since when is 'Mexican' a racial slur?


The problem wasn't that he said Mexican; The problem was that Mexican was clearly being used as a pejorative comment.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Yeah, what weatherman says.
The intonation and timing indicate that the speaker means the following:
"All Mexicans are drunken POS's, and here's a live example, right here."

Clearly, this is a man you don't want coaching a highly public professional basketball team.
It also means that the Nuggets haven't raised their prices enough to keep the drunken Mexican POS's out. Sober, cordial Mexicans, however, should be able to afford tickets.
(Sure seems like a long way to go for a professional basketball game. Are the Clippers that bad? So close, yet so suckin'.)

[Anonymous]

No, I think "piece of sh*t" was the pejorative part.

"W*tb*ck" WOULD have been pejorative, and I certainly would not defend anyone that chose to use such language.

Those of you here that are most indignant would not have uttered a word of condemnation had the "victim" been a Caucasian, regardless of the race/ethnicity of the coach. This also speaks to "the racial divides we have in this country. We keep putting out the fires with gasoline."

[Patience]

If he were caucasian there might be an uproar depending on what he said and the size of the group supporting the ____ S***

If the guy was white and the coach was black there would also be an issue. White on white nobody cares about. If he said Irish s*** (assuming Issel isn't Irish) probably would have gotten a reaction from the Irish community.

DTNF: not sure if you are tongue in cheek, but from what I hear Issel is basically a good guy who lost it. It happens serve the suspension and move on.

The drunk probably did deserve the yelling at, but Issel is a public figure and unfortuantely has to live to a higher standard

[Dr T Non-Fan]

"Good guy"? I think not.
A good person would not yell epithets, regardless of the situation. It's not in the Nuggets' best interests to keep him as coach. He can go work a loading dock, where his ideology will be respected. Then, after dark, he can ride in a white sheet on a horse. With his good-guy friends. Round up a few hispanics. Tie them to a truck.

[Botsy]

DTNF,

I think you are over reacting. The guy screwed up. He apologized and is serving his suspension. Now, let's move past it. If he had a history of similar actions, then I could understand your point.

BTW, how do you know what his "ideology" is?

[Pseudolus]

Good guys sometimes yell epithets.

If you're mad at someone, just as an individual and not for whatever group he's part of, you pick a phrase calculated to tick that person off. Few things tick someone off faster more than racial/gender insults.

Remember Hillary's alleged "Jew B******!" comment? If she did say it (which she denies), it's not because she's anti-semetic, but because she was mad at a Jewish person and wanted to call him something mean. She didn't call him a "Mexican B******!", for the same reason that this guy didn't call the fan a "Jew piece of ****" - because it didn't apply to the person they were screaming at.

I'm not saying the guy did a great thing. He certainly owes a lot of apologies all around. But to lump him in with racial murderers is to go way, way overboard.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I just lumped him with other "good guys."
Mostly, I wonder how anyone could think he's a good guy, not knowing who he is. Maybe to the two of you, good guys can have racist tendencies.

[Patience]

or he someone I have known of for 20+ years and have never heard an ill word about him.

Plus I believe he has genuine regret for what he did. (not just that he was called on the carpet for it)

I believe "good guys" if angered enough would use words to hurt someone. and those words could be racially/ ethnically/ religiously loaded.

I do not see him as another John Rocker (racist based on hate), Al Campanis (Racism based on ignorance) or even Jimmy the Greek (just plain ignorant)

[Botsy]

On 2001-12-18 14:16, Dr T Non-Fan wrote:
I just lumped him with other "good guys."
Mostly, I wonder how anyone could think he's a good guy, not knowing who he is. Maybe to the two of you, good guys can have racist tendencies.


The difference here is that I don't assume to know somebody based on one incident. I don't know if he is a "good guy", but I'm not going to pass judgement on him.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

It appears to me you already are passing judgment, Botsy. Why is my different judgment such a concern to you?

Pat-man, 20 years of keeping his mouth to himself is a great feat. I know I couldn't do it.

[Botsy]

How have I passed judgement? Because I don't assume to know what this man believes? He is a first time offender, and I think that he should be treated that way.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

"Offender": good one!

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"I do not see him as another John Rocker (racist based on hate)"

This is what really bothers me about media coverage of events like this. Does anyone here know who julian Tavarez is? He's another baseball player, who when traded from San Francisco, said he was glad because, "all of their fans are stupid fags". This was a public remark on the record, unlike Rocker, who made private remarks off the record to a reporter he thought was his friend.

Yet Tavarez was never a big deal in the news, even though his remarks happened after Rocker's and baseball said they wouldn't tolerate it. Tavarez was suspended for something like 4 games. Why was he let off so easily?

Oh, did I mention Tavarez is Hispanic? Maybe that explains it. I guess a Hispanic guy doesn't fit the media stereotype of "racist redneck", and instead fits the "oppressed minority" stereotype better. So they didn't know what to do with this, so they said nothing.

Don't believe a d*mn thing the media says about racism, especially the sports media. They're the biggest user of racial stereotypes out there.

[Exam Slave]

Another free-speech issue.
And I quote myself: "One is free to speak his mind only when nobody cares what one says."
Being Hispanic, Tavares has achieved such a freedom. Issel's problem was that he actually cared what some "drunken" "Mexican" thought of his coaching prowess, AND he believed that nobody cared what he said. He'll learn in time.

[Patience]

and with Tavarez nobody heard about him before the comments either.

as for Rocker, you would have to site where the comments were off the record. It was an aranged Sports Illustrated interview.

Also being made national & public in SI vs. where ever the other guy made his comments. Goes along way to the publicity or who cares.

I don't see it as the same situation. but then I'm arguing with a guy packing rocks for his next football game.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"Another free-speech issue. And I quote myself: "One is free to speak his mind only when nobody cares what one says." Being Hispanic, Tavares has achieved such a freedom. Issel's problem was that he actually cared what some "drunken" "Mexican" thought of his coaching prowess, AND he believed that nobody cared what he said. He'll learn in time."

I like how you turned Tavarez's hate-filled comments into a lament that people don't listen to Hispanic people. I was listening, and I think he's a drunken Mexican.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"and with Tavarez nobody heard about him before the comments either."

But everyone's heard of Reggie White, right? He said some pretty ignorant things about other races to the Wisconsin legislature (i.e. Oriental people are good at building little electronic things), and there was barely a peep out of the media.

And you not having heard of Tavarez does nothing to excuse MLB for not punishing him as severely as Rocker.

[Botsy]

DP, I thought the media had already ripped into Reggie about some of his comments. I can't remember what they were though.

[Patience]

1) Reggie was harshly criticized by the media.

2) Pitchers usually get long suspensions then every day players (I would say a week equals 4 days).

3) Rocker kept sticking his foot in it, I don't know how the other guy followed up on it. But yes media outcry will help push a suspension. But Rocker kept it up with stupid comments, I don't recall the suspension being immediate, but after additional crap from him.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Reggie gets off for the same reason: as an AA, nobody cares what he says.

[Botsy]

On 2001-12-19 17:09, Dr T Non-Fan wrote:
Reggie gets off for the same reason: as an AA, nobody cares what he says.


Reggie's an alcoholic?

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

Botsy, the media said Reggie was ignorant, but they didn't villify him like they did Rocker. Reggie said some pretty racist things ...

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

Patience,

>>"1) Reggie was harshly criticized by the media."

Not like Rocker was.

>>"2) Pitchers usually get long suspensions then every day players (I would say a week equals 4 days)."

Tavarez is a pitcher too.

>>"3) Rocker kept sticking his foot in it, I don't know how the other guy followed up on it. But yes media outcry will help push a suspension. But Rocker kept it up with stupid comments, I don't recall the suspension being immediate, but after additional crap from him."

Let's face it, white players who say racist or hateful things are punished more severely than minority players. That's unadorned racism by sports organizations and the media supposedly taking steps to fight it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DonkeyPunch on 2001-12-19 20:04 ]</font>

[sb_jim]

I think it was the fact that RW is an ordained minister that lessened the back lash on his comments. Exception that proves the rule: Jesse Jackson.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"Reggie gets off for the same reason: as an AA, nobody cares what he says."

You mean nobody dares to point out he's a racist.

[Double High C]

Actually, I think that the media were pretty harsh (though deservedly so) on Reggie White.

Then again, it's that left wing media. Reggie is a Republican!

[Dr T Non-Fan]

A "racist" is one who believes his own race to be superior to others.
I recall him classificating other races (hard-working, comfortable living with lots of people in small spaces, watch-to-TV manufacturers), but not necessarily demeaning them. It makes him mostly ignorant and lazy in learning.
Since this is what most white people think about minorities, it's easy to ignore everything they say.
True freedoms carry this particular burden.

[Patience]

I won't compare the treatment of Rocker & White it is too much past (was White even still playing?)

I will admit the majority is more vilified than a minority when making a racist statement. I won't make it a black/white thing. It also applies to gender (Male is considered a majority), religion and many other things in life.

Rocker is still a scum bag and got what he deserved. The fact that the other guy got punished less doesn't mean a thing to me.

You will believe it is a racist issue. I'll believe that there are many factors we are not aware of in the decision. Until I see those I'll keep an open mind as to why there might have been differences

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"A "racist" is one who believes his own race to be superior to others."

No, a racist is someone who treats someone differently because of their race.

>>"I recall him classificating other races (hard-working, comfortable living with lots of people in small spaces, watch-to-TV manufacturers), but not necessarily demeaning them. It makes him mostly ignorant and lazy in learning."

So how is what Issel said racist, by your definition? He called someone a "drunk Mexican". He didn't say anything about white people begin superior to Mexicans.

>>"Since this is what most white people think about minorities, it's easy to ignore everything they say."

See, now *that's* racist. Haven't you just demeaned white people by calling them close-minded?

Liberal hypocracy. Ya gotta love it.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"I will admit the majority is more vilified than a minority when making a racist statement. I won't make it a black/white thing. It also applies to gender (Male is considered a majority), religion and many other things in life."

And you're OK with this?

>>"Rocker is still a scum bag and got what he deserved. The fact that the other guy got punished less doesn't mean a thing to me."

By your standards, isn't Tavarez a scumbag too? Doesn't he deserve the same treatment as Rocker?

>>"You will believe it is a racist issue. I'll believe that there are many factors we are not aware of in the decision. Until I see those I'll keep an open mind as to why there might have been differences."

I agree there were factors in the decision that led to a lighter punishment for Tavarez. Actually, one factor: race. And as long as you're keeping an open mind, why not keep an open mind about the punishment for Rocker as well --- but I guess since he's white you've already decided he's a "scumbag" and "got what he deserved". But by all means keep an open mind about Tavarez and White.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Interesting what you think I am. OK, not very interesting at all. It's a boring subject, and no one should be using it in a debate.

1. I never said he was a racist. I said he had racist tendencies. And then I wanted to show the futility of some posters deciding that he's a still a "good guy" by describing other activities of so-called good guys. I'm not responsible for your math/logic.

2. My dictionary is an official one. If you want to discuss issues in English, please use English.
What you are describing is more like a "racial discriminator," whose actions are likely ot be based on racist ideology.

His behavior is unacceptable for the money he makes, for himself and his employer.
Now, I read his apology was accepted. So, life goes on.

[Patience]

I never heard Tavarez speak, I can not comment on what he is.

Issel is not a scum bag, I believe he made a mistake. I don't know what Tavarez is. I have seen way too much of Rocker to have any doubt. As for White I can't even remember what he said. There was a lot of press, but I can't say I remember the words bothering me terribly much.

Should it bother me that the majority can't get away with as much? No. I believe those words do much more harm than the words of the minority. I can actually see why the minorities get angry and lash out. It may not apply to these individuals, but I understand the unlevel field on these issues

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"Interesting what you think I am. OK, not very interesting at all. It's a boring subject, and no one should be using it in a debate."

If it quacks like a duck ...

>>"1. I never said he was a racist. I said he had racist tendencies. And then I wanted to show the futility of some posters deciding that he's a still a "good guy" by describing other activities of so-called good guys. I'm not responsible for your math/logic."

You think he has a tendency to think whites are superior to other races? Why?

>>"2. My dictionary is an official one. If you want to discuss issues in English, please use English. What you are describing is more like a "racial discriminator," whose actions are likely ot be based on racist ideology."

So advocates of affirmative action are racial discriminators, and likely have racist ideologies? I'll buy that. And nice crack about my English. Why don't you tell me to go back where I came from?

>>"His behavior is unacceptable for the money he makes, for himself and his employer."

So not only are you a racist, but you're also a classist. Interesting.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"Should it bother me that the majority can't get away with as much? No. I believe those words do much more harm than the words of the minority. I can actually see why the minorities get angry and lash out. It may not apply to these individuals, but I understand the unlevel field on these issues."

What tangible harm did Issel's words do (hurt feelings are not tangible harm)?

[Patience]

I said that comment did not apply to these individuals. and I was on Issel's side. and words don't do true harm from a low level individual. But if that person is part of my organization, I need to get out the message I don't believe those words are true and we don't feel the same way. Baseball can not condone such public comments.

On the biggerr picture, it is not the words. It is the thought & feeling behind the words. Does it affect hiring, promotions, daily decisions.

I don't believe Al Campanis' words were terribly harmful. But if he doesn't hire someone because of his beliefs and predjudices than that is a problem.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I didn't think you'd be so sensitive to every thing I write. But then, I'm tending to allow you unlimited free speech very soon.

1. I know plenty of American natives (meaning: born here, not any other definition from wherever you get definitions) who don't know the difference among racist-bigoted-prejudiced-ignorant-discriminating terms. I do not presuppose you to be from some other country. If I were to ask you to go back where you came from, it probably wouldn't back to a different country.
2. Sorry, not a classist. Simplistic name-calling isn't a very good debate tactic. Makes the user of it appear desparate.
If I were paying him to be a public figure, for which bad things would happen to MY bottom line should he behave in an unprofitable manner, I'd can him. But, if I owned a basketball team, I'd probably have a lot of other important businesses to tend to.

3. Some advocates of affirmative action are racists and racial discriminators. Others suffer from self-esteem problems, and still others believe that even now there are major differences in the quality of schools in areas where certain races happen to live. I advocate fixing the schools, and applying affirmative action to anyone who went to those schools in the meantime. I really like the latest attempt of the UC schools to admit the top students of each school, then allow the rest of the applicants to compete for the rest of the openings.
To believe that ALL X are Y is too black-and-white to me. Sure, it's easy for thinking purposes.

Sorry about the tangent, folks.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"I said that comment did not apply to these individuals. and I was on Issel's side. and words don't do true harm from a low level individual. But if that person is part of my organization, I need to get out the message I don't believe those words are true and we don't feel the same way. Baseball can not condone such public comments."

I agree that baseball has the right to distance itself from comments like those that Rocker and Tavarez made. But they did much less with Tavarez. Maybe he's a "low level" individual (Hispanic) compared to Rocker (white)?

P.S. I believe Issel's words were true. That was a drunk Mexican he was yelling at.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

>>"Simplistic name-calling isn't a very good debate tactic. Makes the user of it appear desparate."

So does talking about debate strategy instead of the issue at hand. Why do you think Issel has racist tendencies?

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

I don't care about anyone else's white guilt anymore. Let's talk about puppies.

They're sooooooo cute!

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Now you're getting it! White guy = important. Less-white guy = nobody cares.

(I didn't say it was ideal. Just the way it is. No, I can't change it.)

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

White guy from South = stereotypical villain, minority guy = stereotypical victim

[E. Blackadder]

Apparently the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce was flexing its political muscle.

http://www.intellivu.com/main.asp?brand=webcenter.intellivu.aol.com&fnum=327


_________________
The Tao that can be defined is not the Tao.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: E. Blackadder on 2001-12-27 01:23 ]</font>

[Maine-iac]

Never mind.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Maine-iac on 2001-12-27 12:12 ]</font>