First Place Chicago Bears

[General Kenobi (ret.)]

Where's gomer tree when you really need him?

[jets fan]

I haven't seen Badger around either - it looks like the Packer fans will lay low this week. Next week may be different though, I think Chicago will have a tougher time going to Washington than the Pack will have hosting Cleveland (who was just pretty much eliminated from the playoffs). And how about that scene in Cleveland?

I'm just glad I can show my face this week - it was a tough 2 weeks before this! :grin:

[jets fan]

OWK, gomer tree posted over on the WC about yesterday's game:

http://www.casact.org/students/forums/noncgi/Forum14/HTML/003064.html

[treyso]

And I posted over there as well. I'll stand behind my team. I said (not in writing of course), that I would be impressed if they could win in Tennessee. If you told me at the beginning of the season that they would be 1-1 against Balitmore and Tennessee, I would be happy. They are 9-4 and I am proud to be a Packer fan. I, unlike many fans, am not going to abandon my team this week or at any point. I will be back in the stands this weekend rooting on my beloved Green and Gold.

They just got outplayed. Read my reply on the CAS forum. They may have lost, but they are not by any means done. They can beat anyone on any day, but they can also lose on any day. Same goes for every team in the NFL. Watch what happens tonight. (NO).

And piss on the Browns front office for condoning the actions of the Browns fans. Why don't you just come out and say "do that every game when you get a call you don't like."

[General Kenobi (ret.)]

No kidding. The only words coming from the mouths of Browns management should have been "That was an embarrassment to our team and we will take prompt steps to ensure it doesn't happen again."

[jets fan]

We just need Miami to lose once more (did someone say NE?) - that's all the outside help we need. Few people know that we hold all the tie-breakers against the Dolphins and the Patriots! We beat Miami twice and we have a better conference record than NE - now all we have to do is find a way to win the next 3 games!

[Brad Spirrison]

Hey Jets Fan,

As a Bears fan I can assure you that Dave Wannsted was the master of road losses in December. 6 years with the bears and I think he may have had one road win in Dec. Other than that, it's good to be back on top of the NFC Central. Although Green Bay has beaten us twice, I think that unless they can get healthy on defence, they might not win the division. The way the Bears played yesterday reminded me of last year's Ravens:
(1) Excellent rookie running back.
(2) Average quarterback who doesn't make a lot of mistakes
(3) Dominating run defense led by huge defensive tackles.
(4) Dominating middle linebacker.

Who knows ......

[Abducens]

Wannstedt was the master of losing between September and January with the Bears, from what I remember.

Hmm, I'm sure that had nothing to do with the Bears themselves.

[Cynical Realist]

OK - Browns management, made a bad situation worse - but why is the NFL getting away with whitewashing the complete incompetence on the field from their officials?

More importantly a precedent has been set that never existed before. The rule "had been" a replay can't be done if another play was run. Well, another play was run - the problem was the 70,000 fans know the rules better than the d*mn official who should have his stripes pulled.

He can't say, "Gee, did anybody else feel a buzzer", or "Did somebody want to review the play two plays ago?" That's not the way the system is designed for good reason. The proper call was (1) If he felt the buzzer - immediately blow the whistle, wave the arms, and stop the next play; or (2) Too late for a replay, the next play got run, sorry play proceeds. McCauley did neither, he allowed the play to be run, then decided to go back two plays for a review. As for (#2), there a lot of incidents where a play that could have been overturned, wasn't because a team did not get a challenge in on time, so it wouldn't have been a big deal.

So is this the new precedent?

According to the ref - the Couch spiking the ball on 1st down, DOESN'T EXIST because he got buzzed before the snap.

There are several disturbing scenarios that can result if you allow this to be the new policy. Say it was 3rd and 2 yds to go, the Browns get a first down: then what if the Browns had scored a TD on the ensuing play (OK - pretend it was a team that could score a TD).

The ref say, nope we have to review the 3rd down play. They overturn the pass completion, and say it now is 4th and 2, and play would resume? But the Browns score a TD on the next play - nope, that play doesn't exist.

or

They review it, and say completed pass, but no you don't get the TD, because that play didn't exist, because we hadn't reviewed the 3rd down play yet. So here try again, it's 1st and goal from the 9.

It just doesn't work if you allow this precedent to stand. (As a Browns fan, I have no illusions that the Browns were headed for the playoffs - I'm happy they are competitive this year - but still think they got screwed yesterday).

[Abducens]

The only thing the NFL might do is say that the ref has to blow the whistle and halt play before a snap occurs. They can do this without admitting they were wrong here, under the pretext of "We just want to avoid future ugly situations."

[treyso]

not that I want to defend the refs, since I think they have done a poor job this season, but what else can you do about that play?

There is no red flag to throw on the field from the replay booth. If they were communicated to prior to the snap of the play, they have to blow their whistle. But there are all kinds of scenarios. I think they need to know all situations. I also think that if the replay booth has any intentions to review a play, they need to make that call right away. They can't assume they are going to have the same amount of time to make that decision.

I do think they did the only fair. They got the buzzer, they review the play. What really needs to happen is that we need to take the initiative to review out of the hands of these jerkoffs upstairs.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Perhaps the red flag from the booth could be attached to a filled, plastic, beer bottle?

It should reach the field, from what I've seen.

[Abducens]

>>I also think that if the replay booth has any intentions to review a play, they need to make that call right away.

This is so painfully true. When your team just got screwed by a call and there's less than 2:00, you're fully at the mercy of the replay official to call for the review. Half the time they inexplicably do nothing - look at the Lions game on Thanksgiving.

I was surprised when I learned that the replay rule takes it out of the coaches' hands at that point. My only guess is that they don't want a coach on the defense disrupting an offense's flow by challenging something stupid like the ball spot.

[treyso]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2001/1217/1297158.html

Pathetic.

[Abducens]

Now, the next time a coach complains about the reffing, I want to see him claim "freedom of speech" if they try to fine him!

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

I've had this debate on other boards, but nobody believed me until now. The NFL has some kind of pathological inability to admit that someone in their organization messed up. They issued a statement saying that everything the officials did was fine. Next time I go to an NFL game I'm bringing a bag of rocks.

[Patience]

briliant statement. I guess you are just supporting your team.

now on the other side, the refs did get the call right. The ball was never caught & there shouldn't have been a first down. Cleveland didn't deserve to win the game.

[General Kenobi (ret.)]

Policy wised up:

http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/docs/027373.htm

[Cynical Realist]

Patience - I completely disagree with you. The Refs did NOT get the call right. By failing to intervene on the ensuing play they abrogated the right to review the previous play. At that point, whether the guy caught the ball or not is a moot point, it was ruled a catch on the field.

There are hundreds of calls that could be, and theoretically should be, reviewed and overturned in a season that aren't. This should have been one of those plays.

I can hardly wait for the playoffs when this comes up again and someone wants to go back two plays - why not they did it in Cleveland. Or some coach will say he threw the red flag on the field before the ball was snapped on the next play, even if the officials did not notice and let the play run, they should now go back two plays and go to a replay review.

[Patience]

If the play stood Jacksonville would have had a huge beef instead. I don't disagree that the refs blew it. They should have stopped the spike.

But if I was offered the tradeoff I would rather see Cleveland lose in the manner they did. Then have Jacksonville lose because the refs blew the play on the field. (I have no loyalty to either team).

Jacksonville won the game on the field. I don't have a problem with the outcome, only how it was handeled

[Cynical Realist]

I would have preferred, Cleve, 2nd and Goal on the 9 yard line, the refs admitting that they failed to act in time to review the play, and to allow play to continue. That would have preserved the replay system's Golden Rule of we aren't ever going back two plays to review a play.

Sure Jax would have a beef, as all teams do when a play they could have been overturned isn't, or isn't reviewed.

My real point isn't about this game - this game was inconsequential, Cleveland wasn't going to the playoffs (nor Jax). The league adamently refuses to acknowledge they screwed up, and has set a damaging precedent for the future. McCauley was not in control of this game, and his inaction caused this problem. It is near-sighted and stupid to say "they ultimately got the call right" as a defense of this action. There are plenty of calls that aren't right, replay was not put in to correct every call and the zebras have to follow the procedures that are in place, not make up new ones when it suits them.

[My Name]

CR, get over it. They got the call right ultimately. Also, this wasn't the first time this happened so if you keep yelling how this sets the precedent, it doesn't, it happened before (although I can't remember the game right now) the big difference was in the last time the fans didn't act like a bunch of barbarians and bring the attention to the league - which is probably why people weren't talking about it afterwards.

The real precedent started in this game is that if the fans don't like the call they should just throw anything they can get their hands on down on the field (see New Orleans). The worst thing was the management of Cleveland condoning the actions of the fans. Those fans should have been arrested and had their season tickets removed.

[DonkeyPunch (Banned)]

I'm telling ya, bring a big bag of rocks to the next game. Maybe the refs will get their heads out of their asses once we put a few lumps on them.

[Cynical Realist]

The Browns management (I assume under pressure from the league) will be reviewing tapes of the incidents for possible perps to prosecute/banish and take away their tickets.

My question - how does this fit into the idea of PSL (Personnel Seat License)? In Cleveland when they were building the stadium, they had to put up something like $500 or more a seat to own the PSL. The PSL has some kind of ownership rights - that does not include the price of the yearly season tickets. Something like 80-90% of the Cleveland Stadium is sold out thru PSL, or Loges, the rest in old fashion single game tickets.

Some of the other new stadiums (PSI.net?) have gone this route. What does the PSL mean if they want to throw you out? Or boot you out permanently?

Anyone have any idea?

[Anonymous]

On 2001-12-17 13:15, tigernet wrote:
The way the Bears played yesterday reminded me of last year's Ravens:
(1) Excellent rookie running back.
(2) Average quarterback who doesn't make a lot of mistakes
(3) Dominating run defense led by huge defensive tackles.
(4) Dominating middle linebacker.

Who knows ......


The way the Ravense played Sunday reminded me of how the Bears played Saturday.

[Brad Spirrison]

Right on tony. Only difference is that Bears turned the ball over late instead of early in the game.

[DW Simpson]

Grossman is going to get blitzed right out of the league.

[Da Bears!]

Grossman is going to get blitzed right out of the league.
Sure looked like it at first.

[Da Bears!]

At least we've firmly established ourselves in the missed field goal return department :)

[Mick Fan]

That missed FG return was unbelievable. He waited to (1) lull the Giants to sleep and (2) let the blockers get set up. He had quite a wall and ran by everyone!

If another team is looking to trade for players with 108-yard returns, the Bears are the team call! :)