CERA credential - Is it worth the effort?

[energy123]

This SOA is billing this credential as one-stop shopping for Risk Managers across multiple industries, not just insurance...please share your sentiments, pro and con...

[Corn Row]

The SOA has its head up its :moon2: if it thinks anyone outside the actuarial community cares about the designation. I'd guess the actuarial community itself couldn't care less.

[mlschop]

The SOA has its head up its :moon2: if it thinks anyone outside the actuarial community cares about the designation. I'd guess the actuarial community itself couldn't care less.

I'm pretty sure the folks leading the SOA know that no one cares about CERA today. Their goal is to make more people care about it tomorrow. I'm sure they wouldn't mind if CERA's dominated the ERM market, but I think they'd have more reasonable expectations than that.

[WWSituation]

How will anyone care about it tomorrow if it remains something that only someone on an actuarial track can obtain?

[actuaryalfred]

google cera and you'll know. It's not that bad ... you can find it on fourth page

[campbell]

Hmmm, it's on the bottom of the 2nd page for me.

[JMO]

Hmmm, it's on the bottom of the 2nd page for me.
I found it near the top of page 2. But it took me a while to find it, since the keyword actuary(actuarial/actuaries) didn't appear in the short summary.

Michael Cera got a lot more hits. Just sayin'

[asymp_normal]

I would like the hits to be something other than self-referential. When it starts looking like GARP or PRMIA or FRM...with actual job listings... I'll be more interested.

[Houdini]

As far as whether it's worth the effort, at the moment, it's not really any extra effort at all. If you take a particular track for the exams, it just gets thrown in there with your FSA. Most of the CERA's I know (all three of 'em) just kind of happened to get it, almost accidentally.

[WWSituation]

As far as whether it's worth the effort, at the moment, it's not really any extra effort at all. If you take a particular track for the exams, it just gets thrown in there with your FSA. Most of the CERA's I know (all three of 'em) just kind of happened to get it, almost accidentally.

That is kind of the point. The SOA is going to go nowhere in its attempt to gain any market share in the ERM world if all they are doing is granting credentials to people already getting their ASA/FSA. Those CERAs will enjoy the same negative actuarial stigma that exists in the ERM space now. To the typical financial risk manager, there is no difference between an ASA, FSA or CERA. Nothing about this designation looks to change that.

[ConfusedNY]

That is kind of the point. The SOA is going to go nowhere in its attempt to gain any market share in the ERM world if all they are doing is granting credentials to people already getting their ASA/FSA. Those CERAs will enjoy the same negative actuarial stigma that exists in the ERM space now. To the typical financial risk manager, there is no difference between an ASA, FSA or CERA. Nothing about this designation looks to change that.

A more logical approach would be have the Actuarial exams mean something for an existing ERM credential. This would not happen because the SOA wants the credential to themselves.

[sanki]

IMO, a good credential must link to a principle or accord that most companies agree to follow, why FRM is so popular? that's because it links to the Basel II accord, and I hope CERA can have some relationships with Solvency II or RBC phase ??, for example, if an enterprise risk internal model must signed by a CERA then regulator can waive or reduce requirements for the company, under that situation, CERA could be more useful

[actuwannabemtl]

What about all the erm symposiums jointly organized by the cas . the soa and the prmia ?
Aren't they showing that the erm world takes actuarial societies or actuaries seriously ?
Maybe those symposiums are actually minor events in the ERM world ?
Could it be that the erm symposium is a case of the prmia gaining visibility in the insurance world rather than the actuarial societies gaining visibility and credibility in the wider erm/finance/business world ?

[WWSituation]

What about all the erm symposiums jointly organized by the cas . the soa and the prmia ?
Aren't they showing that the erm world takes actuarial societies or actuaries seriously ?
Maybe those symposiums are actually minor events in the ERM world ?
Could it be that the erm symposium is a case of the prmia gaining visibility in the insurance world rather than the actuarial societies gaining visibility and credibility in the wider erm/finance/business world ?

Those symposiums are sponsored by actuarial societies. PRMIA joins in because they can get new members by reaching out to actuaries - not the other way around.

[JustASix]

I went to the CERA presentation at the spring meeting yesterday. I found it pretty interesting.
My take on the usefulness of the designation is that in the short term it will be helpful for actuaries wanting to do ERM work within the insurance industry. In the longer term it is expected to gain acceptance outside of insurance initially in the financial services field.
I am an FCAS and would need one fellowship level exam and a module to complete the requirements. I think that is fair. Not painless, but not too cumbersome either.
I plan on pursuing the designation.

[asymp_normal]

I am an FCAS and would need one fellowship level exam and a module to complete the requirements. I think that is fair. Not painless, but not too cumbersome either.
I plan on pursuing the designation.

Best of luck, and please keep us posted on how it goes.
Just out of curiosity, are you receiving company support for this endeavor?

[campbell]

I was at the same presentation yesterday, and I think Kathy Wong, Prof. Klugman, and Bob Wolf (and especially the kibitzing from Mike McLaughlin, a very strong proponent of the new credential) made a good case for the designation. I may write more about the presentation later, but I rolled into home early this morning at 2:30am, and need a little more sleep to be coherent.

FWIW, I plan on pursuing this credential as well. I think the ERM material gives a broader perspective of actuarial work, and I think just as bored physicists encroached upon the financial world with their fancy stochastic PDEs, the time is ripe for actuaries to push into broader risk management.

Also: Article on ERM by Bob Wolf from the current issue of The Actuary (http://soa.org/library/newsletters/the-actuary-magazine/2008/june/act-2008-vol5-iss3-wolf.aspx)

[JustASix]

Best of luck, and please keep us posted on how it goes.
Just out of curiosity, are you receiving company support for this endeavor?
Thanks.
I hope so. I just got back and havn't really started that task yet. I will update every once in a while here.

[MY$.02]

physics is cool if I had the dedication and resources behind me I would have studied physics more thoroughly

[jared]

I am an ACAS, and I was told at the session to figure out what exams I have under SOA rules and get my ASA. Since I had a few exams pre-2000, this does not seem like a favorable option.

[tommie frazier]

jared-if you keep going to FCAS, you will have all of the prelims (even if you did not get credit already for SOA-MLC). Then you are just modules away.

[energy123]

does anyone know who constitutes the review committee?

[tommie frazier]

jables, TDA, general apathy, and the Griffin franchise I think.

best of luck!

[JustASix]

I am an ACAS, and I was told at the session to figure out what exams I have under SOA rules and get my ASA. Since I had a few exams pre-2000, this does not seem like a favorable option.
It would take a little research, but I imagine you would have all the prelim requirements you need. Then you would need the same as I do (the one exam and the one module).
If you have taken an exam recently you could check here to see what you have credit for.
http://casact.org/admissions/index.cfm?fa=exstatus

Here is the transition to 2000 document.
http://www.casact.org/admissions/reports/transit2000.pdf

Good luck.

[bdschobel]

I'm pretty sure the folks leading the SOA know that no one cares about CERA today. Their goal is to make more people care about it tomorrow. I'm sure they wouldn't mind if CERA's dominated the ERM market, but I think they'd have more reasonable expectations than that.We have no intention of "dominating" this huge practice area. What we're trying to do (as I've said often) is "stake out the high ground." We want the best enterprise-risk managers, who already use techniques that are fundamentally actuarial, to become part of the actuary family. We're targeting perhaps the best 10%. I wouldn't call that domination.

Bruce

[bdschobel]

does anyone know who constitutes the review committee?Yes, I know. :)

Should I share? The six members are Doug Brooks, Tom Herget, Carl Hess, Max Rudolph, Sudha Shenoy and Kathy Wong (who serves as liaison to the Board).

Bruce

[tommie frazier]

HFBB!

[Mike McLaughlin]

I was intimately involved in creating the CERA. We spent a lot of time coming up with the right name. CERA is chartered enterprise risk ANALYST. Not chartered enterprise risk ACTUARY. The CERA credential is based on actuarial methods and models, but it can be widely applicable to not only insurance, but also broader financial services and beyond.

Remember this is brand new, the credential was only introduced last June 2007. The SOA is working hard to promote this among candidates and employers--employers in a broad range of industries. I would advise a lot of younger up and coming professionals to consider the CERA as a "destination" credential. FSA is a fantastic designation and I will fight to sustain and enhance it. Sure. But in many situations CERA is the ideal credential.

[campbell]

So.... if someone were to be applying for the CERA via the Experienced Practitioner's Pathway, would it be advisable for said person to address Doug Brooks, Tom Herget, Carl Hess, Max Rudolph, Sudha Shenoy and Kathy Wong by name?

Perhaps it would be less risky to label it "To the CERA review committee members:"

[bdschobel]

Just send your application to the SOA office. The staff does some preliminary screening.

Bruce

[Mike McLaughlin]

By the way several other actuarial bodies are looking into an international ERM credential. The Institute (UK), Faculty (Scotland), Inst. of Australia, CIA, South Africa and I believe Mexico, are working together with the International Actuarial Association. The Casualty Society and the SOA are also involved and supportive subject to further evolution of the concepts. This is just a brief summary, but there are 2 working parties, one working on recognition and the other on syllabus, with a long-term goal of creating an international credential. So the idea of an ERM credential is gaining wide acceptance among actuarial organizations.

[silverfox]

Could the designation gain greater acceptance if it was a completely different path from the ASA/FSA designations as opposed to a point that is merely a step along the way (almost). It makes me think of how people get their CPCU and then get their AIAF designation because so much overlap with the CPCU exams. And then it's just two more exams for another designation.

[JMO]

So.... if someone were to be applying for the CERA via the Experienced Practitioner's Pathway, would it be advisable for said person to address Doug Brooks, Tom Herget, Carl Hess, Max Rudolph, Sudha Shenoy and Kathy Wong by name?

Perhaps it would be less risky to label it "To the CERA review committee members:"

I think it would be preferable to use the second formulation. Committee membership changes from time to time.

[bdschobel]

Just send your application to the SOA office. The staff does some preliminary screening.

Bruce

[JustASix]

Is there any update on allowing CAS members to apply for the Experienced Practitioner's Pathway? I am not qualified, but I know a couple people that may be and would be interested in applying if they were allowed.

[bdschobel]

They are now. This was approved by the Board last week. We'll post the news within a few days on the web site,

Bruce

[JustASix]

They are now. This was approved by the Board last week. We'll post the news within a few days on the web site,

Bruce
Excellent, thank you.

[Nonpareil]

Just send your application to the SOA office. The staff does some preliminary screening.

Bruce

Since, as you say, CERA does not have "actuary" in the title, is the SOA willing to consider non-actuary risk management professionals for the "Experienced Practitioner's Pathway?"

[bdschobel]

No. EPP participants must already be members of the SOA or CAS.

Bruce

[Nonpareil]

No. EPP participants must already be members of the SOA or CAS.

Bruce

IMO, you will have a hard time achieving your stated objective, i.e., "We want the best enterprise-risk managers, who already use techniques that are fundamentally actuarial, to become part of the actuary family. We're targeting perhaps the best 10%," with that approach. The best ERM practitioners are using sophisticated mathematical methods and modeling techniques, many of the same ones that actuaries use, but they aren't necessarily actuaries, and many are not familiar with the term "actuary." I'm all for the credential, mind you, but by targeting only people who are already associates or fellows of the SOA or CAS, I don't see how you are bringing anyone into "the actuary family" who is not already a member. Just sayin'

[bdschobel]

Yes, we understand the issue. But granting a credential without examinations is pretty radical already. Doing so for actuaries was aceptable to the Board, but doing so for non-actuaries was not. They'll have to become CERAs the hard way -- at least for now.

Bruce

[Mike McLaughlin]

There's a tradeoff in any credential between rigor and numbers. More rigor in the education and examination will result in smaller numbers of credentialed professionals. This is not purely a numbers game, of course. But for the SOA, the rigor of the credential comes first. We actually had a similar discussion at the board. "Why not let anyone who has comparable experience become a CERA." Well we want to be sure the CERA remains at the appropriately high standard. We will have smaller numbers initially. Over time of course the numbers will grow.

The Experienced Practitioner pathway is temporary. The examinations are new and many professionals are worthy to have it but could not have passed the exams because they didn't exist. So a limited number of EPs are being admitted. But only professionals with a highly regarded credential (and experience) will be allowed to take this path. The CERA will always be primarily exam based.

[JustASix]

Does anyone have any advice for an FCAS trying to sell this to their employer (a P&C Insurer)? Most people seem to see this as a "Life thing" and don't seem to understand how it is applicable to P&C work.

TIA.

btw. I think it is reall great that Mike and Bruce are out here answering peoples questions. I think it speaks well to the SOA's commitment to growing this designation.
Thanks!

[Mike McLaughlin]

Sorry for delay in responding. The CERA is designed NOT to be life specific. That's the intent anyway. We removed most if not all the life content. Actually I'd say, we removed most if not all the insurance-specific content. We couldn't do it perfectly because one of the criteria going in was using existing exams and not to create new ones, or a new path that would compete with the FSA. But pretty much, the CERA contains the tools for enterprise risk management in any industry.

Admittedly there's a bit of a selling job needed for many employers, life, P&C, other financial, and broader. We need to communicate the skills that we have, and we need to understand what employers need better. We're using the MMDP campaign for communication and conducting a survey of employers for understanding. Meanwhile, one suggestion is to convince your employer of the value and benefits of ERM in general. There's a lot of awareness of the need so that should work. And direct your employer to www.ceranalyst.org, which explains the skills that the credential brings.

[campbell]

I go to the trouble of getting my application in on Monday, to beat the deadline, and look what the SOA goes and does: http://www.ceranalyst.org/fsa-asa.asp

Current SOA and CAS members who have demonstrated expertise and a minimum of three years of substantial experience in the field of ERM by December 31, 2008 may be eligible to earn the CERA credential through an application process and the successful completion of a two-day seminar.

Well, I had an inkling that this might happen, given that they were going to open it up to CAS members. Better to beat the December rush. ;)

[Hackeni]

I go to the trouble of getting my application in on Monday, to beat the deadline, and look what the SOA goes and does: http://www.ceranalyst.org/fsa-asa.asp

Other changes - it seems that the review time is extended from 4-6 weeks before to 6-8 weeks and the seminar originally planned for Sept 08 is pushed back to Nov 08. ;]

[campbell]

Other changes - it seems that the review time is extended from 4-6 weeks before to 6-8 weeks and the seminar originally planned for Sept 08 is pushed back to Nov 08. ;]

Nice eye. I didn't notice that.

[Mike McLaughlin]

The SOA is getting quite a good flow of applications for experienced practitioners pathway to the CERA. The review team is definitely putting in some overtime! They are maintaining high standards, of course. But it's a good thing that the credential is growing in numbers and hopefully will reach critical mass soon.

[campbell]

Well, I thought there was a good chance that you'd have gotten an influx this week. Y'all did a very good job of promoting it at the Life spring meeting, which convinced me to apply, and I also encouraged at least 5 other people at my company to apply (I don't know if they did or not).

If other people were inspired as I was, I am sure you got quite the cascade.

[Meme]

:popcorn:

[notreallyme]

1) In general how much has to be 'ERM' experience? I have a lot of DFA experience which some people would now call ERM, but we called it DFA back in the day.
2) What is the annual cost? -- I'm starting to pile up the membership fees (even though employer paid).
3) Continuing education -- would being on certain committees count?
4) would attending the ERM Webinar be worth mentioning? (How about a love for Nicolas Taleb books :) )

- I'm FCAS if it matters.

Will start getting my info ready.

[bdschobel]

1. You need 3 years of "substantial" ERM experience. SOA staff can help you to interpret those words. Call Kara Clark.
2. SOA's annual dues are $290 for new CERAs, rising to $575 after 5 years.
3. Yes.
4. In what sense? (You just mentioned it, so I guess the answer must be yes! :) )

Bruce

[_BullDog_]

2. SOA's annual dues are $280 for new CERAs, rising to $575 after 5 years.

Where is this information on the CERA site? If you go to the member dues it takes you to the SOA site and only shows dues for FSA's and ASA's. What happens when an ASA becomes a CERA do they pay less in dues, going from the $345 ASA dues to the $280 CERA dues? Or do CERA's not need to pay the extra 55 to cover the other stuff, although there is still a $10 difference even after that.

[notreallyme]

1. You need 3 years of "substantial" ERM experience. SOA staff can help you to interpret those words. Call Kara Clark.
2. SOA's annual dues are $280 for new CERAs, rising to $575 after 5 years.
3. Yes.
4. In what sense? (You just mentioned it, so I guess the answer must be yes! :) )

Bruce

I wrote up my letter should I send it to someone for review and possible changes or just go through the process?

I could PM it if you'd be willing to take a look :)

[Mike McLaughlin]

All CERAs are ASAs, unless they are also FSAs. (However not all ASAs are CERAs--depends on the path they took to ASA.) CERA dues are identical to ASA dues, unless the person is also an FSA, in which case they pay FSA dues. But a typical new CERA who has progressed through the exams will be a new ASA and will pay dues starting at a lower level then increasing to a higher level after 5 years. The dues for a new ASA are $290 actually, and increasing to $575 after 5 years. As the soa.org web site indicates, there is a $55 additional charge for the actuarial standards board and ABCD for US residents who are not members of the Academy, which takes the totals to $345 and $630 respectively. The ceranalyst.org web site states the ASA-equivalence somewhere but perhaps it's not clear.

[Mike McLaughlin]

I wrote up my letter should I send it to someone for review and possible changes or just go through the process?

Probably no specific need to pre-screen your application letter. Just try to satisfy most (or "several") of the criteria mentioned on the web site. Give enough information that the review team can understand the actual work that you've done. They will take a careful look and if they have questions or are looking for more information, they will get back to you. I think DFA experience would relate very closely to ERM so you should be in good shape. Probably my main advice would be, make sure you cover 3 years of experience or more.

[notreallyme]

Probably no specific need to pre-screen your application letter. Just try to satisfy most (or "several") of the criteria mentioned on the web site. Give enough information that the review team can understand the actual work that you've done. They will take a careful look and if they have questions or are looking for more information, they will get back to you. I think DFA experience would relate very closely to ERM so you should be in good shape. Probably my main advice would be, make sure you cover 3 years of experience or more.


Perfect, thanks for your response.

All CERAs are ASAs, unless they are also FSAs. (However not all ASAs are CERAs--depends on the path they took to ASA.) CERA dues are identical to ASA dues, unless the person is also an FSA, in which case they pay FSA dues. But a typical new CERA who has progressed through the exams will be a new ASA and will pay dues starting at a lower level then increasing to a higher level after 5 years. The dues for a new ASA are $290 actually, and increasing to $575 after 5 years. As the soa.org web site indicates, there is a $55 additional charge for the actuarial standards board and ABCD for US residents who are not members of the Academy, which takes the totals to $345 and $630 respectively. The ceranalyst.org web site states the ASA-equivalence somewhere but perhaps it's not clear.

And for us FCAS's?

[Mike McLaughlin]

For FCAS's, I say, Welcome! You will be a welcome new member of the SOA. I think you'll find the CERA valuable, increasingly so over time. And I think there is the potential for CAS and SOA members to begin working more closely together which would be entirely a good thing.

If there is one slight drawback, it's that you'll have to pay some dues, namely dues at the level mentioned above.

[JMO]

For FCAS's
If there is one slight drawback, it's that you'll have to pay some dues, namely dues at the level mentioned above.
That's going to be a tough sell for P/C companies that don't even want to pay for the CERA course work. Is there any possibility of a reduced rate for CAS folks?

[Mike McLaughlin]

I'd say, not really. It's not anticipated. I realize that there is a cost, but I would hope the benefits of the CERA in terms of employment opportunities for members, and increasing stakeholder value for employers, should greatly exceed the cost of the dues.

[notreallyme]

I'd say, not really. It's not anticipated. I realize that there is a cost, but I would hope the benefits of the CERA in terms of employment opportunities for members, and increasing stakeholder value for employers, should greatly exceed the cost of the dues.


Not to mention the increase in coolness of adding 4 more letters after your name :)

[JustASix]

Not to mention the increase in coolness of adding 4 more letters after your name :)
7 more letters, we get ASA too. :tup:

[bdschobel]

I'd say, not really. It's not anticipated. I realize that there is a cost, but I would hope the benefits of the CERA in terms of employment opportunities for members, and increasing stakeholder value for employers, should greatly exceed the cost of the dues.As usual, I agree with Mike. If we discounted due for CAS members, then what about AAA members, CCA members, CIA members, etc. Where do you stop? And should they reduce their dues?

Bruce

[qqpp]

so instead of having xxx, ASA, CERA on a business card, one really only needs xxx, CERA? since all CERAs are ASAs?

[JMO]

so instead of having xxx, ASA, CERA on a business card, one really only needs xxx, CERA? since all CERAs are ASAs?
Unless they are FSAs.

[Mike McLaughlin]

You could put ASA, CERA if you so desired, but it is a bit redundant. There may be cases where using both would be meaningful but I'm not sure I can think of any. Actually I can. If you are in a company with an actuarial study program, and they reimburse you for actuarial exams, or for gaining your ASA, you might need to make the point that studying for and earning your CERA also means studying for and qualifying as an ASA.

When the CERA credential is fully established (rememer it's only been a year), then employers and everyone will know that CERA implies ASA.

[Agada]

so instead of having xxx, ASA, CERA on a business card, one really only needs xxx, CERA? since all CERAs are ASAs?

I'm new here, so go easy on me if I mess this up. But this prompted me out of lurkerdom.

I don't it's true that all CERAs are ASAs. I'm pretty sure the CERA curriculum does not require you to take the FAP modules, so I think you could get your CERA before (or without) getting your ASA. Because of that, it makes sense to say xxx, ASA, CERA. Of course that's ignoring whether it makes sense to take an FSA exam before doing the FAP modules.

[JMO]

I'm new here, so go easy on me if I mess this up. But this prompted me out of lurkerdom.

I don't it's true that all CERAs are ASAs. I'm pretty sure the CERA curriculum does not require you to take the FAP modules, so I think you could get your CERA before (or without) getting your ASA. Because of that, it makes sense to say xxx, ASA, CERA. Of course that's ignoring whether it makes sense to take an FSA exam before doing the FAP modules.

Bruce was explicit about this question.
The CERA is an ASA-level designation, but it's not an ASA per se. . . .
Bruce

[bdschobel]

This is a confusing topic, to lots of people.

Anyone who earns the CERA simultaneously becomes an ASA, too. They can put "CERA, ASA" after their name, even though they may not have Exam MLC or the FAP. All ASAs obviously are not CERAs. And some FSAs are CERAs, too, though most are not. Some became CERAs first; others became FSAs first. All FSAs are ASAs, but that's kind of meaningless.

Bruce

[tommie frazier]

bruce-when do venn diagrams get added back to the exam process?

[Danny Boy]

This is a confusing topic, to lots of people.

Anyone who earns the CERA simultaneously becomes an ASA, too. They can put "CERA, ASA" after their name, even though they may not have Exam MLC or the FAP. All ASAs obviously are not CERAs. And some FSAs are CERAs, too, though most are not. Some became CERAs first; others became FSAs first. All FSAs are ASAs, but that's kind of meaningless.

Bruce

What a joke.

[mlschop]

What a joke.

Explain...proving you have a clue what the CERA process entails.

[Mike McLaughlin]

The CERA is an ASA. It's a specific ASA focused on enterprise risk management. It excludes certain parts of the ASA syllabus but it includes certain parts of the FSA syllabus. So, CERAs are ASAs.They can use both credentials, but it's a bit redundant. As I think someone else mentioned, all CERAs are ASAs but not all ASAs are CERAs. There is no separate class of membership for CERAs other than Associate of the Society of Actuaries. Hopefully that's clear. (Except of course, some CERAs are also FSAs.)

[Danny Boy]

Is there an SOA candidate that thinks the CERA is a bunch of wasted money? Is there an SOA candidate that thinks the watering down of the ASA credential is actually bad for the profession?

If so, then please speak up. This is starting to not be funny and I think these yokels are serious.

[mlschop]

Is there an SOA candidate that thinks the CERA is a bunch of wasted money? Is there an SOA candidate that thinks the watering down of the ASA credential is actually bad for the profession?

If so, then please speak up. This is starting to not be funny and I think these yokels are serious.

Again...explain why you think CERA being an ASA level designation is bad for the profession.

Prove that you aren't just whining about something of which you have no knowledge.

[Mike McLaughlin]

I'm a candidate and I think the CERA is great for the future of the SOA and the profession. As many people know I was very instrumental in creating the credential. I haven't heard anyone say that it was wasted money. And the CERA definitely doesn't water down the ASA! The E&E committee that made the final decisions on content checked carefully that there was equivalence with the regular ASA. Is there a specific reason why it might be bad?

[Danny Boy]

Again...explain why you think CERA being an ASA level designation is bad for the profession.

Prove that you aren't just whining about something of which you have no knowledge.

You now have multiple paths to reach the ASA. McDonalds, Lexus, and CFA's are successful because consumers/hiring managers know what they're getting. What does an ASA mean if there are multiple ways to get it? Why give the ASA designation away as a booby prize... does the SOA even value its own credential? They're throwing it in with a failing product (the CERA) to entice students down that path. In the end, and many posters have mentioned this, there is a very very very small chance the financial community will ever recognize the CERA.

SOA had a good thing going for it. For some reason in the past few years it decided to start chipping away at the strengths of the profession. At least the CAS isn't following... yet.

[Danny Boy]

I'm a candidate and I think the CERA is great for the future of the SOA and the profession. As many people know I was very instrumental in creating the credential. I haven't heard anyone say that it was wasted money. And the CERA definitely doesn't water down the ASA! The E&E committee that made the final decisions on content checked carefully that there was equivalence with the regular ASA. Is there a specific reason why it might be bad?

Your posts on this forum that I have read makes me think you're extremely similar to Bruce (is that better Mod1?) when it comes to your vision for the SOA. Equivalence with the regular ASA is a joke anymore. Raise the standards back up to pre module days and then see if it compares. Once you fix the ASA back to the appropriate level, add the ERM as an FSA track and stop trying to advertise that it's the solution for the risk management world.

MBAs and CFAs are encroaching on traditional actuarial responsibilities. Worry about that before you go for positions that are so heavily experience based that a designation likely only be a misuse of resources.

[mlschop]

Danny Boy - explain to me what the requirements are for ASA versus CERA and that you understand them.

IMO - CERA track is harder when compared to the standard ASA. :shrug: (This is coming from an ASA who just sat for the fairly challenging FSA Exam AFE; required by all CERA).

[Danny Boy]

Danny Boy - explain to me what the requirements are for ASA versus CERA and that you understand them.

IMO - CERA track is harder when compared to the standard ASA. :shrug: (This is coming from an ASA who just sat for the fairly challenging FSA Exam AFE; required by all CERA).

Research the requirements yourself if you're that interested (they're discussed in this thread). I gave you my reason (different paths to the designation) but I certainly don't need to "prove" everything to your satisfaction.

I'm sorry you're finally taking some difficult exams. You should have been taking tough non-preliminary exams before you ever got your module based "ASA."

[campbell]

Do you know what CERAs (via exam) have to pass to get the designation? They have to get all the prelims except MLC, VEE of economics, the FSA-level AFE exam, and an FSA-level module on operational risk.

I would like to know how this is so much easier than all the prelims, 2 more VEEs (stats and finance), and the FAP modules and assessments. I would say these are about equivalent difficulty.

I think the current level for ASA is appropriate. It has been at approximately this level before. If there's going to be a meaningful ASA, I think it needs more distance than existed in the 2000 exam system.

And why yes, I =am= a Bruce lackey. It's definitely more appropriate to call me that than Mike McLaughlin that. You seem not to notice that there are lots more people in the "power structure" of the SOA than Bruce. Bruce is not all-controlling. He just happens to be very vocal, and posts here on the AO often, which makes it easy to pin everything that goes on in the SOA on him.

[Danny Boy]

Do you know what CERAs (via exam) have to pass to get the designation? They have to get all the prelims except MLC, VEE of economics, the FSA-level AFE exam, and an FSA-level module on operational risk.

I would like to know how this is so much easier than all the prelims, 2 more VEEs (stats and finance), and the FAP modules and assessments. I would say these are about equivalent difficulty.

I think the current level for ASA is appropriate. It has been at approximately this level before. If there's going to be a meaningful ASA, I think it needs more distance than existed in the 2000 exam system.

And why yes, I =am= a Bruce lackey. It's definitely more appropriate to call me that than Mike McLaughlin that. You seem not to notice that there are lots more people in the "power structure" of the SOA than Bruce. Bruce is not all-controlling. He just happens to be very vocal, and posts here on the AO often, which makes it easy to pin everything that goes on in the SOA on him.


1.) I didn't say it was easier, I said mentioned there are now multiple paths. As you've expressed in your post, there are quite a few differences between an ERM ASA and a typical ASA (bold added for emphasis)

2.) I'm guessing Bruce is getting much more "glory" out of the changes from his supporters than he is getting from anonymous posters who disagree with the changes he championed. I have a feeling when he goes home at night it's a net gain and he sleeps well (people he knows saying good job versus an internet Danny Boy saying crappy job).

[campbell]

And there are multiple paths to FSA. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I can understand how people disagree with my position, and I do agree that ASA doesn't mean the same thing now as it has at other times. I think it's fine at the level it is now, and I think it's fine to have the CERA.

[JMO]

And there are multiple paths to FSA. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I can understand how people disagree with my position, and I do agree that ASA doesn't mean the same thing now as it has at other times. I think it's fine at the level it is now, and I think it's fine to have the CERA.
:iatp:
"And anyone who says otherwise is itching for a fight."

(Hey what happened to the IATP smiley??)
ETA, it's just fine. I must have misspelled it before.

[JohnLocke]

(Hey what happened to the IATP smiley??)

:iatp:

[Danny Boy]

And there are multiple paths to FSA. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Any of them thrown in for free while working on another designation?

[JMO]

Any of them thrown in for free while working on another designation?
I got mine while working on FLMI. So?

[Mike McLaughlin]

There are several different paths to FSA, such as individual life, retirement, and actually ERM. Different paths are not inherently a weakness. Rather, different specialty tracks. Similarly we have different ASA specialties now.

The Institute in the UK gives certificates post-fellowship and every now and then there's a discussion of doing that in the SOA. Some people think risk or other specialty credentials should be post-FSA but I'd say, the FSA is a pretty advanced credential already. Better to get experience at that point rather than doing yet more exams.

[happynsweet]

I'm late to the discussion, but definitely want to add my 2 cents. Forgive me for going back to the original post in this discussion.

I was in the inaugural class of CERA's (earned by exams). I obtained my ASA long before getting the CERA credential. I also registered for the ERM exam long before I knew the designation existed. Perhaps I got my CERA designation 'for free' by sitting for my FSA exams..... but given the material that was on the exam and the fact that it was an FSA-level exam, I don't think anything was handed to me.

Lately, I've been getting more inquiries from students (young and seasoned exam-takers) about the usefulness of the credential. I tell them all the same thing - the industry will be slow to accept it, but I definitely think this is a great move by the SoA.

Then today, I received my first phone call from a headhunter looking very specifically for CERAs. He also told me he has more opportunities for CERAs in the pipeline.

If I hadn't earned the credential through exams, I would have still gone for the designation. I work in an ERM-type role, and by having this credential, I have gained a lot more credibility at work. I even use a lot of the AFE exam material in my day-to-day work.

I'm also certain that when we are in the market for another actuary, the CERA designation will be used to distinguish candidates, if not listed as a requirement.

[Danny Boy]

Was this a recruiter from a reputable firm that you know often deals with actuaries? (such as DW)

How did this recruiter find your information and that you had the CERA?

Have you had any contact with the actual hiring company or has the recruiter told you enough information that you know they're not just fishing for info?

[tommie frazier]

cera is a search item on the soa database.

[happynsweet]

Was this a recruiter from a reputable firm that you know often deals with actuaries? (such as DW)

How did this recruiter find your information and that you had the CERA?

Have you had any contact with the actual hiring company or has the recruiter told you enough information that you know they're not just fishing for info?

This is a reputable recruiter I have worked with before and has kept in contact with me during my entire professional career. He knows I have the CERA from the date I received it (plus as Tommie mentioned, you can do a search on the SOA site anyway).

In terms of the actual hiring company, I haven't had any contact with them since I'm not interested in leaving my current job. In fact, when my recruiter called me with the details, he knew there was a large chance I wasn't going to be interested (it's consulting, and I just left consulting a few years ago), but wanted to check with me anyway.

[hw0799]

I saw risk management section has some kind position that manage relationship with GARP.

so, in our CERA program, there is no recognition of FRM which is fellow from GARP?

because bank implement risk management far earlier than our insurance industry, through both regulation and industry practice ....

just out of curiosity.

[Run2standstill]

Two years ago, in the GARP annual meeting in New York, there was an insurance section/track sponsored by SOA. After that, SOA seems to steer away from GARP and instead have strengthened its relationship with PRIMA (PRM). A big benefit PRM provides is it recognizes SOA exams, and an FSA is exempted for two out of three 90-min computerized exams in order to become a PRM.

PRM is growing strong in US, at least around New York area. However, I feel like worldwide, FRM is still a more widely recognized risk managment professional designation, at least for the moment. However, what matters most is what you know and the way you think and price risks. The designations themselves do not walk further beyond an interview phone call or your first couple of projects on the job.

The risk managment arena is changing fast, especially in the banking industry after over 350 bn of write-down and losses. For a short moment, we thought insurance is catching up quickly, but now there is a real risk that we could be left further behind if we do not think and act in other's shoes.

[Mike McLaughlin]

The SOA should maintain communication and relationships with other organizations including GARP, PRMIA. At some level there is a bit of competition but nonetheless I'm definitely in favor of staying in communication. That includes exam recognition at some level, probably, but I would quickly say that the CERA is more advanced than either PRM or FRM.

[Mike McLaughlin]

One more thing. I actually had a conversation with a client, an insurer, and I said something like, Oh the banks have been doing this (i.e., ERM) longer than the insurers. And my client said well, if the banks are so smart, how come they're facing a huge mortgage-related financial crisis. Good question! In fact the banking crisis is making the discipline of risk management look bad! Not to be overly dramatic but we need to make sure as CERAs we understand the concentration risks, and other risks that the banking industry did not take into account, and make sure through our work that nothing similar happens in insurance, or anywhere else that we can help it.

[JMO]

One more thing. I actually had a conversation with a client, an insurer, and I said something like, Oh the banks have been doing this (i.e., ERM) longer than the insurers. And my client said well, if the banks are so smart, how come they're facing a huge mortgage-related financial crisis. Good question! In fact the banking crisis is making the discipline of risk management look bad! Not to be overly dramatic but we need to make sure as CERAs we understand the concentration risks, and other risks that the banking industry did not take into account, and make sure through our work that nothing similar happens in insurance, or anywhere else that we can help it.
Also, recognizing the risks involved with, for instance:
> Changing underwriting rules
> Not looking at a full economic cycle when setting assumptions.

;)

[WWSituation]

One more thing. I actually had a conversation with a client, an insurer, and I said something like, Oh the banks have been doing this (i.e., ERM) longer than the insurers. And my client said well, if the banks are so smart, how come they're facing a huge mortgage-related financial crisis. Good question! In fact the banking crisis is making the discipline of risk management look bad! Not to be overly dramatic but we need to make sure as CERAs we understand the concentration risks, and other risks that the banking industry did not take into account, and make sure through our work that nothing similar happens in insurance, or anywhere else that we can help it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jun/29/insurance.creditcrunch

[Barely Frank]

I'm a candidate and I think the CERA is great for the future of the SOA and the profession. As many people know I was very instrumental in creating the credential. I haven't heard anyone say that it was wasted money. And the CERA definitely doesn't water down the ASA! The E&E committee that made the final decisions on content checked carefully that there was equivalence with the regular ASA. Is there a specific reason why it might be bad?

One more thing. I actually had a conversation with a client, an insurer, and I said something like, Oh the banks have been doing this (i.e., ERM) longer than the insurers. And my client said well, if the banks are so smart, how come they're facing a huge mortgage-related financial crisis. Good question! In fact the banking crisis is making the discipline of risk management look bad! Not to be overly dramatic but we need to make sure as CERAs we understand the concentration risks, and other risks that the banking industry did not take into account, and make sure through our work that nothing similar happens in insurance, or anywhere else that we can help it.

How is the CERA experiment working so far? Anyone have one? Anyone find it an employable asset or a complete waste of time?

[paulbernal]

I guess the CERA credential would only be appealing to someone who has not yet started to take any exam or is at a very early stage in the exam taking road and wants to have some sort of credential but does not want to go all the way to the ASA, FSA, etc designation.

[Arthur Kade]

CERA isn't less work than ASA.

[paulbernal]

I was intimately involved in creating the CERA. We spent a lot of time coming up with the right name. CERA is chartered enterprise risk ANALYST. Not chartered enterprise risk ACTUARY. The CERA credential is based on actuarial methods and models, but it can be widely applicable to not only insurance, but also broader financial services and beyond.

Remember this is brand new, the credential was only introduced last June 2007. The SOA is working hard to promote this among candidates and employers--employers in a broad range of industries. I would advise a lot of younger up and coming professionals to consider the CERA as a "destination" credential. FSA is a fantastic designation and I will fight to sustain and enhance it. Sure. But in many situations CERA is the ideal credential.
Hello Mike, why would you suggest going for a CERA instead of going for an FSA or ASA designation? Could you expand a little bit more the part where you say: "But in many situations CERA is the ideal credential?

The way I see it, the main advantage of CERA is that It can be applied in any industry and people don't necessarily have to specialize in life, health or property and casualty insurance.

[Arthur Kade]

The way I see it, the main advantage of CERA is that It can be applied in any industry and people don't necessarily have to specialize in life, health or property and casualty insurance.
That's the theory. Now for the reality, look for risk management listings outside the insurance industry and see how many of those positions mention CERA. (Hint: the answer is an integer smaller than 1.)

[deathfrombelow]

That's the theory. Now for the reality, look for risk management listings outside the insurance industry and see how many of those positions mention CERA. (Hint: the answer is an integer smaller than 1.)

Negative 2?

[UpStateOfMind]

I will be attempting to earn the CERA, although mostly because I can earn both the FSA and CERA with no extra exams currently.

My thought process is the CERA will make it a bit easier to find a Risk Management position at an insurer. Then after acquiring some experience in the field I would imagine that would be transferable to non-insurers.

[Avi]

I guess the CERA credential would only be appealing to someone who has not yet started to take any exam or is at a very early stage in the exam taking road and wants to have some sort of credential but does not want to go all the way to the ASA, FSA, etc designation.Not necessarily. I am an FCAS who recently followed the CAS track for CERA and am waiting on results of UK-9. Despite reaching the "terminal" credential in my field, I felt that I could use the added knowledge and discipline that the CERA would provide, which it certainly did (rounding out my education and ability in the area of ERM). I also believe that it will, although barely, allow for a somewhat broader future of opportunities in that I think that companies may start looking for CERA designees when looking to fill a CRO or senior risk manager position. Even if not, I still think the education was worth it.

[paulbernal]

Not necessarily. I am an FCAS who recently followed the CAS track for CERA and am waiting on results of UK-9. Despite reaching the "terminal" credential in my field, I felt that I could use the added knowledge and discipline that the CERA would provide, which it certainly did (rounding out my education and ability in the area of ERM). I also believe that it will, although barely, allow for a somewhat broader future of opportunities in that I think that companies may start looking for CERA designees when looking to fill a CRO or senior risk manager position. Even if not, I still think the education was worth it.
Avi, thanks a lot for your valuable inputs on the subject.

Best regards

[JMO]

Whether or not it's worth it depends on what you want to do with it. I think the SOA was confused about this when they made it an entry-type designation. (ASA level, essentially.)
Most, if not all, of the people who have found it useful are those with fellowship credentials that wanted to expand their perceived area of expertise. And now, it is available as an option for any of the SOA fellowship tracks. Visit SOA.org for more information on how that works.

[LifeIsAPoissonProcess]

I recently started considering CERA and ran into this article. Evidently the requirements are changing a bit to cater more towards the non-ERM track actuaries.

http://soa.org/Education/General-Info/edu-pathway-changes.aspx

The SOA's Advanced Finance/ERM (AFE) exam (the key ERM exam in the current CERA pathway) is a six-hour exam with a significant portion devoted to non-ERM topics. The new ERM exam will be four hours in length, providing a more focused and efficient pathway to the CERA.

The new ERM exam will provide a more accessible means for candidates in other tracks, as well as current FSAs and ASAs, to acquire a CERA credential with minimal additional exam time-a need that has been expressed by candidates, members and employers.

[campbell]

yes.

They are making it easier for FSAs to pick up CERA.

[isjjj1]

the optimal designation, imo, is asa!

[campbell]

the optimal designation, imo, is asa!

guess what -- CERAs are automatically ASAs (if they're not already an FSA)

tada!

[isjjj1]

wow...didn't know that

[campbell]

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmDWA-_QkWidc03z6e1TH8wf-uQL_aZTlcPYJWVRy60wkOmsTq

[Avi]

guess what -- CERAs are automatically ASAs (if they're not already an FSA)

tada!I guess you mean SoA CERAs as I doubt those getting CERA through the actuarial profession, the CAS, the IIA, or the DAV (to name a few) will be associates by mutual recognition of the SoA :D

[campbell]

yes, I was referring to SOA CERAs.

Shoo now, CAS boy

[campbell]

Though, I can totally see CERAs from other actuarial orgs getting mutual recognition, if they want it