2008 Grads Seek Alternate Venues

[Vorian Atreides]

I found the following Wall Street Journal article interesting.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121503662915324339.html

[banpeikun]

interesting read! coincides with what i've observed.

[abwoc]

Caption: "Katherine Atwill bypassed potential consulting jobs and joined Teach for America."

Later in the article, it is revealed that she majored in East Asian Studies and Creative Writing.

What kind of consulting work was she looking for? "Hey, I can write haikus for you!"

[MG]

Caption: "Katherine Atwill bypassed potential consulting jobs and joined Teach for America."

Later in the article, it is revealed that she majored in East Asian Studies and Creative Writing.

What kind of consulting work was she looking for? "Hey, I can write haikus for you!"

"Consulting jobs" might be a euphemism for "temp work".

[almost actuary]

For most positions, AmeriCorps requires 1,700 hours of service -- typically about a year -- with volunteers receiving a living allowance of about $11,000 a year, plus an education award of $4,725 to be used toward college tuition or repayment of student loans.

Who can afford to do this unless your parents are footing the bill? Which I see is the case here:
That kind of partnership with non-teaching career paths helped Mike Stewart's father feel better about his son's joining the organization. "My fear was that he'd go into the teaching world right off the bat," after his service, says the elder Mike Stewart, executive vice president of a medical-device company. "One thing that gives me some comfort is that he is still planning on going to law school."


Heaven forbid my son would settle for [gasp] teaching.

[glassjaws]

"Consulting jobs" might be a euphemism for "temp work".

Haha. I think so.

[Ilyak1986]

Who can afford to do this unless your parents are footing the bill? Which I see is the case here:


Heaven forbid my son would settle for [gasp] teaching.

Quoted For Truth...

Unlike most of these people with more money than they know what to do with, most of us upcoming grads have more debts than we have money in our bank account.

"I did a great thing by teaching!"...

You also had a loaded family paying your way through life.

In the meantime, those that say money isn't a factor are kidding themselves. Until you're out of debt and have a family living in financial security, everyone has a price--and if you "do what you love" despite financial hardships to your family, your wife should kick you out of the house for prioritizing an enjoyable job before your family.

[Saniokca]

Quoted For Truth...

Until you're out of debt and have a family living in financial security, everyone has a price--and if you "do what you love" despite financial hardships to your family, your wife should kick you out of the house for prioritizing an enjoyable job before your family.

couldn't agree with you more...

[iwakura42]

"I did a great thing by teaching!"...

You also had a loaded family paying your way through life.

In the meantime, those that say money isn't a factor are kidding themselves. Until you're out of debt and have a family living in financial security, everyone has a price--and if you "do what you love" despite financial hardships to your family, your wife should kick you out of the house for prioritizing an enjoyable job before your family.

Why the hostility? I doubt most of the fresh college grads looking to contribute something to our society are married with children, and furthermore, putting off a well paying career for a year, and perhaps increasing one's personal debt a small amount, to help serve a social need should be lauded, not looked down upon.

[JohnLocke]

Why the hostility? I doubt most of the fresh college grads looking to contribute something to our society are married with children, and furthermore, putting off a well paying career for a year, and perhaps increasing one's personal debt a small amount, to help serve a social need should be lauded, not looked down upon.

Lauded? I feel ambivalent towards them. They're still getting paid (albeit horribly). Most people doing this don't have well-paying careers waiting for them. They just don't know what to do with themselves. If they go to Africa to feed the poor for a year, then they should get lauded.

[Ilyak1986]

Why the hostility? I doubt most of the fresh college grads looking to contribute something to our society are married with children, and furthermore, putting off a well paying career for a year, and perhaps increasing one's personal debt a small amount, to help serve a social need should be lauded, not looked down upon.

Why the hostility? Because they take up an admissions slot. Because for every rich "I'll do what I want" spoiled person living off of mom and dad's paycheck, someone that pulled himself up by his bootstraps that may have been an immigrant that came into this country and had the odds stacked against them DIDN'T get in.

You DON'T need an Ivy League or high-tier education to go to some filthy black neighborhood and say "1+1=2. 2+2=4." If what you want to do is teach stinky filthy impoverished lost causes that worry more about not getting shot than studying, please DON'T apply to selective colleges and leave the opportunities to those that want to make something of themselves.

[Ilyak1986]

Lauded? I feel ambivalent towards them. They're still getting paid (albeit horribly). Most people doing this don't have well-paying careers waiting for them. They just don't know what to do with themselves. If they go to Africa to feed the poor for a year, then they should get lauded.

In fact I'd especially look down on someone that went to Africa.

There are enough problems to tackle here in the US of A. Why the heck do you need to go to Africa? Hell, when we're in this economic rut, why are we putting our resources towards feeding AFRICANS? We can put them to much BETTER use stimulating our own economy and letting Africans starve!

Yes, it's cruel, but living costs resources. And IMO, those resources are better spent here domestically. Developed nations should not be responsible for every impoverished schmuck in the world outside their borders. Want an opportunity? Come to America, and devote yourself to becoming a member of our economy, not vice versa. These developing nations should stop asking for handouts. If you can't take care of your people, get your nation annexed, turn over your natural resources, and then maybe there'd be justification for keeping your people alive, aside from the fact that we have a seemingly endless supply of people upon which to test "cures" for AIDS on with little ramifications for it not working.

[Samir]

Moderator, I think this thread will become political soon. Please move to political forum.

[Samir]

Hmmm....someone didn't get accepted to an Ivy League school and is very bitter.

[Mc Lovin]

Lauded? I feel ambivalent towards them. They're still getting paid (albeit horribly). Most people doing this don't have well-paying careers waiting for them. They just don't know what to do with themselves. If they go to Africa to feed the poor for a year, then they should get lauded.

:iatp:

Most of the people I know who do Teach for America, do it because they can't find a job. Its easy to get a job like that. It is a worthwhile option to pursue while you wait till the economy brightens or you take time off before you want to face reality and figure out really what you want to do with your life. Plus, it looks awesome on the resume and you can rest assured that you gave back to a community. Put a high-paying consulting job in front of them - the large majority would turn their heads.

[banpeikun]

Why the hostility? Because they take up an admissions slot. Because for every rich "I'll do what I want" spoiled person living off of mom and dad's paycheck, someone that pulled himself up by his bootstraps that may have been an immigrant that came into this country and had the odds stacked against them DIDN'T get in.

You DON'T need an Ivy League or high-tier education to go to some filthy black neighborhood and say "1+1=2. 2+2=4." If what you want to do is teach stinky filthy impoverished lost causes that worry more about not getting shot than studying, please DON'T apply to selective colleges and leave the opportunities to those that want to make something of themselves.Uh, I think you've got some personal issues to deal with. On a separate point, quit whining that someone more qualified than you got in. It's a free country, and they can do whatever they want with the degree you weren't good enough to get.

[JohnLocke]

In fact I'd especially look down on someone that went to Africa.

There are enough problems to tackle here in the US of A. Why the heck do you need to go to Africa? Hell, when we're in this economic rut, why are we putting our resources towards feeding AFRICANS? We can put them to much BETTER use stimulating our own economy and letting Africans starve!

Yes, it's cruel, but living costs resources. And IMO, those resources are better spent here domestically. Developed nations should not be responsible for every impoverished schmuck in the world outside their borders. Want an opportunity? Come to America, and devote yourself to becoming a member of our economy, not vice versa. These developing nations should stop asking for handouts. If you can't take care of your people, get your nation annexed, turn over your natural resources, and then maybe there'd be justification for keeping your people alive, aside from the fact that we have a seemingly endless supply of people upon which to test "cures" for AIDS on with little ramifications for it not working.

My response can be summarily described with this emoticon: :crazy:

[JohnLocke]

Moderator, I think this thread will become political soon. Please move to political forum.

NOOOOO! The only thing less respected than The Reef is political!

[FranklinB]

In fact I'd especially look down on someone that went to Africa.

There are enough problems to tackle here in the US of A. Why the heck do you need to go to Africa? Hell, when we're in this economic rut, why are we putting our resources towards feeding AFRICANS? We can put them to much BETTER use stimulating our own economy and letting Africans starve!

Yes, it's cruel, but living costs resources. And IMO, those resources are better spent here domestically. Developed nations should not be responsible for every impoverished schmuck in the world outside their borders. Want an opportunity? Come to America, and devote yourself to becoming a member of our economy, not vice versa. These developing nations should stop asking for handouts. If you can't take care of your people, get your nation annexed, turn over your natural resources, and then maybe there'd be justification for keeping your people alive, aside from the fact that we have a seemingly endless supply of people upon which to test "cures" for AIDS on with little ramifications for it not working.

You should study political science and economics and run for Congress. Forget actuarial science. Your talents would be wasted here. Such ingenious foreign policy! You are the solution to the national debt! :notworth::crazy:

[Ilyak1986]

You should study political science and economics and run for Congress. Forget actuarial science. Your talents would be wasted here. Such ingenious foreign policy! You are the solution to the national debt! :notworth::crazy:

I know you're being sarcastic, but honestly, I'm no fan of politics and bureaucracy. I like it when times are prosperous and things are getting done. If I felt I had a decent chance at bringing about any change in this country, I actually would run for office, but I'm one college kid, and mostly outspoken. I just frankly believe in the optimal allocation of resources despite human emotion--and that's not very popular.

[Harry]

I know you're being sarcastic, but honestly, I'm no fan of politics and bureaucracy. I like it when times are prosperous and things are getting done. If I felt I had a decent chance at bringing about any change in this country, I actually would run for office, but I'm one college kid, and mostly outspoken. I just frankly believe in the optimal allocation of resources despite human emotion--and that's not very popular.
So you're a robot. Cool. You should run the world.

[Person Man]

I just frankly believe in the optimal allocation of resources despite human emotion.
That makes you a socialist.

[Ilyak1986]

Well, numbers are numbers, and algorithms are algorithms. Since when is efficiency a bad thing?

[Ilyak1986]

That makes you a socialist.

How doe sthat make me a socialist? Are you saying operations research applied to economics is socialism?

[_BullDog_]

I know you're being sarcastic, but honestly, I'm no fan of politics and bureaucracy. I like it when times are prosperous and things are getting done. If I felt I had a decent chance at bringing about any change in this country, I actually would run for office, but I'm one college kid, and mostly outspoken. I just frankly believe in the optimal allocation of resources despite human emotion--and that's not very popular.
optimal for who?

[FormLetter]

Efficiency is a bad thing when efficiency dictates that you die.

[erosewater]

I'm one college kid

Now I understand

[Ilyak1986]

optimal for who?

That's a good question. So far, my optimization problems have been "minimize cost" or "maximize profit".

I just believe so long as the most people prosper without the aid of economic bubbles, we're in good shape.

[_BullDog_]

That's a good question. So far, my optimization problems have been "minimize cost" or "maximize profit".

I just believe so long as the most people prosper without the aid of economic bubbles, we're in good shape.
ok, now define prosper.

[Ilyak1986]

Hmmm...wife, 1-3 kids, family fuzzball, living comfortably, with the ability to send the kids off to any school they want to for a BS degree without worrying about saddling them with ridiculous debts, and enough money to enjoy life rather than worrying about making ends meet to pay the bills/costs of living?

[Vorian Atreides]

So far, my optimization problems have been "minimize cost" or "maximize profit".
Optimizing single variable problems do not adequately prepare one for the real world where the optimization problems are multi-variate. Someone somewhere will not get what they want, no matter how you optimize the situation.

Optimization research tends to make many people frustrated/unhappy because these people focus on what they're not getting rather than what's working for the larger picture.

[Ilyak1986]

Well that's the nature of the beast. The key to optimization is to make a policy such that you minimize this number of people, not that you eliminate every one of them (it's impossible).

[Extreme Extremist]

You should run the world.

Better him/her than you, you pinko!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fish Actuary]

Hmmm...wife, 1-3 kids, family fuzzball, living comfortably, with the ability to send the kids off to any school they want to for a BS degree without worrying about saddling them with ridiculous debts, and enough money to enjoy life rather than worrying about making ends meet to pay the bills/costs of living?

Sounds like France or Germany....

[Mc Lovin]

In fact I'd especially look down on someone that went to Africa.

There are enough problems to tackle here in the US of A. Why the heck do you need to go to Africa? Hell, when we're in this economic rut, why are we putting our resources towards feeding AFRICANS? We can put them to much BETTER use stimulating our own economy and letting Africans starve!

Yes, it's cruel, but living costs resources. And IMO, those resources are better spent here domestically. Developed nations should not be responsible for every impoverished schmuck in the world outside their borders. Want an opportunity? Come to America, and devote yourself to becoming a member of our economy, not vice versa. These developing nations should stop asking for handouts. If you can't take care of your people, get your nation annexed, turn over your natural resources, and then maybe there'd be justification for keeping your people alive, aside from the fact that we have a seemingly endless supply of people upon which to test "cures" for AIDS on with little ramifications for it not working.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Artadius/ThatsRacist.gif

[Incredible Hulctuary]

There are enough problems to tackle here in the US of A. Why the heck do you need to go to Africa? Hell, when we're in this economic rut, why are we putting our resources towards feeding AFRICANS? We can put them to much BETTER use stimulating our own economy and letting Africans starve!Africans are humans too.

[Ilyak1986]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Artadius/ThatsRacist.gif

If there were starving Antarcticans in Antarctica, I'd say the same thing. Race has nothing to do with it. Each government being responsible for its own people has everything to do with it.

And frankly, I don't care about political correctness. I'm not Mr. PR here.

[Jack]

Why the hostility? Because they take up an admissions slot. Because for every rich "I'll do what I want" spoiled person living off of mom and dad's paycheck, someone that pulled himself up by his bootstraps that may have been an immigrant that came into this country and had the odds stacked against them DIDN'T get in.

You DON'T need an Ivy League or high-tier education to go to some filthy black neighborhood and say "1+1=2. 2+2=4." If what you want to do is teach stinky filthy impoverished lost causes that worry more about not getting shot than studying, please DON'T apply to selective colleges and leave the opportunities to those that want to make something of themselves.

So blacks are stinky and filthy and teahing them is a waste or resources, do I have you right?

Someone who choses the very important job of teaching is a spoiled person living off mom and dad's paycheck?

Most (all) teachers I know aren't sponging off their parents.


I get the impression that you wanted to go to an Ivy, didn't get in, and are kind of angry about it. Is that true?

My next door neightbors son got a perfect score on his SAT and went to Brown and now is a teacher. I don't know how wealthy my next door neighbor is but the fact that he lives next door suggests that he isn't.

I'd also argue that teachers have made something of themselves.

[tenthring]

Those who can't do.....

[Ilyak1986]

So blacks are stinky and filthy and teahing them is a waste or resources, do I have you right?

Someone who choses the very important job of teaching is a spoiled person living off mom and dad's paycheck?

Most (all) teachers I know aren't sponging off their parents.


I get the impression that you wanted to go to an Ivy, didn't get in, and are kind of angry about it. Is that true?

My next door neightbors son got a perfect score on his SAT and went to Brown and now is a teacher. I don't know how wealthy my next door neighbor is but the fact that he lives next door suggests that he isn't.

I'd also argue that teachers have made something of themselves.

1) Did I say all? I said there are such communities--and they exist. Certainly if you watch action news in the Philly area, you hear about a murder every other day.

2) Someone who is teaching may or may not...but it sure doesn't bring in a lot of money, and if you're paying full price for a marquee school, then odds are, teaching (at least at a non-professor level) will not make ends meet without some other financial backing.

3) I went to Lehigh University, and I'm content with my choice. Granted, it's not allowing me to enter a graduate course (financial calculus aka stochastic calculus) due to all of the demand for the analytical finance (aka MFE) program, and the undergrads got kicked out. That said, some of my professors are MIT and Lehigh grads, and are the best I've had. So no, I'm content with it. HOWEVER: any time I see someone going to a high or top tier school with some ambition that absolutely does not demand attending such a selective school, it makes my blood boil. You do NOT need an Ivy League or Lehigh University or NYU or other high to top tier college education to say "okay boys and girls, today we're going to study multiplication!"

Now if Ivy League schools allowed everyone in that wanted to apply and had semi-decent scores, then sure, be my guest. My gripe is that people WITH ambition are being denied entry while people WITHOUT ambition are being granted it. A teacher isn't going to make a $10 million dollar alumni donation in the future, and means worse/less programs and financial aid for the college.

4) As for your neighbor, to each his own. I hope said son is happy that someone else that could have made it big with a Brown education got denied and in his place, they accepted a would-be teacher that'll never return anything monetary to the university of any significance, at least as a teacher.

5) As for teachers not making anything of themselves: I've had some utterly AMAZING teachers that I will be forever thankful for. My tenth grade English teacher I will not forget for the rest of my life. Mrs. Rocchino of Cherry Hill High School East was the reason I escaped a year of English in college, and basically singlehandedly built up my entire verbal/reading/writing capabilities. My calc teacher Mrs. Heath was the reason I escaped a year of calc in college and skipped straight to multivariable, and my stats teacher Mr. Russo was also a very great guy that I'll never forget.

Teachers have a very important place in our society, and the position is indispensable.

THAT SAID:

You do not need to go to a super-selective college to obtain such capabilities! While I know I could not possibly hope to match some of my best teachers despite being at a very high tier college, I simply believe that ambition should be a factor in college acceptance. Someone that has shown that he has the legwork to get into a high tier university with the ambition of striking it rich has a far better chance to return an alumni donation of millions of dollars in the future than someone who wants to get paid a small random amount of money.

Basically, it boils down to business.

Frankly, however, I believe that my best teachers deserve ten times their pay such that the position of a teacher and professor would be more glorified than that of Tom Brady's or Michael Jordan's. I believe that the reason that Ancient China was such an amazing civilization, thousands of years ahead of everyone else during those times, was the importance of teachers, and I share those beliefs.

HOWEVER: in our current times, it is what it is. Teachers get paid a small random amount of money, and to become a teacher these days at the k-12 level does not require the education of a prestigious university. I honestly wish it did, and that public schools were competitive, so that the consumer (the children learning) won, and our k-12 rating went up on the world stage. But what I wish doesn't really matter. I'm talking about reality.

[Blockhead]

Lauded? I feel ambivalent towards them. They're still getting paid (albeit horribly).

Not always the case. My roommate does Teach for America at a southside Chicago school. We live in a pretty nice apartment. He eats out frequently, just bought a new Martin guitar and is planning on going to Europe this winter.

I can't speak for many other TFA locations, but I wouldn't immediately assume the person is scraping by due to his/her humanitarian efforts.

[Harry]

Better him/her than you, you pinko!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cry:

[Ilyak1986]

That said, I wouldn't mind being king of the world =O...I'd hire the most talented advisers and let them do all the work =P

[kolya23]

I was in one of these programs for teaching, and want to correct some misconceptions.


Many (around 1/3) of the participants were older (30+), and switching careers. Nearly all of them were taking a major pay cut.
It is not easy to get accepted to these programs, which have acceptance rates around 10-20%. Generally, the participants were high acheiving students from top schools. In other words, they had job options.
The program attracted two types of people: those who wanted to be teachers, but didn't want to take time out to go to ed school for a couple years; and those who had plans for their future career, but wanted to do this for 2 years first. The part in the article about the agreements with companies like Chase to hold their positions for 2 years fits with what I saw. College graduates who are unsure what to do with their lives and scared of the "real world" usually look into teaching programs, realize it's a lot of work, and then decide to go to grad school.


Maybe Americorps is filled with bums leeching off their parents, I don't know. But that definitely wasn't the case with the teaching programs.

[notreallyme]

My mom was a teacher and I don't remember feeling 'poor' as a kid.

[Ilyak1986]

My mom is a piano teacher and a community college professor, and because of my bum dad, I realize that she's busting her ass to make ends meet. Which is why I want to hit it huge and make her, and everyone else that put their faith in me at some point (and some who by now lost it) proud and come back to me if they ever were away.

[kolya23]

4) As for your neighbor, to each his own. I hope said son is happy that someone else that could have made it big with a Brown education got denied and in his place, they accepted a would-be teacher that'll never return anything monetary to the university of any significance, at least as a teacher.

5) As for teachers not making anything of themselves: I've had some utterly AMAZING teachers that I will be forever thankful for. My tenth grade English teacher I will not forget for the rest of my life. Mrs. Rocchino of Cherry Hill High School East was the reason I escaped a year of English in college, and basically singlehandedly built up my entire verbal/reading/writing capabilities. My calc teacher Mrs. Heath was the reason I escaped a year of calc in college and skipped straight to multivariable, and my stats teacher Mr. Russo was also a very great guy that I'll never forget.

Teachers have a very important place in our society, and the position is indispensable.

THAT SAID:

You do not need to go to a super-selective college to obtain such capabilities! While I know I could not possibly hope to match some of my best teachers despite being at a very high tier college, I simply believe that ambition should be a factor in college acceptance. Someone that has shown that he has the legwork to get into a high tier university with the ambition of striking it rich has a far better chance to return an alumni donation of millions of dollars in the future than someone who wants to get paid a small random amount of money.

Basically, it boils down to business.

Frankly, however, I believe that my best teachers deserve ten times their pay such that the position of a teacher and professor would be more glorified than that of Tom Brady's or Michael Jordan's. I believe that the reason that Ancient China was such an amazing civilization, thousands of years ahead of everyone else during those times, was the importance of teachers, and I share those beliefs.

HOWEVER: in our current times, it is what it is. Teachers get paid a small random amount of money, and to become a teacher these days at the k-12 level does not require the education of a prestigious university. I honestly wish it did, and that public schools were competitive, so that the consumer (the children learning) won, and our k-12 rating went up on the world stage. But what I wish doesn't really matter. I'm talking about reality.

i think you vastly overestimate the quality of a Brown education

shout out, south jersey

whenever someone uses words like "frankly" or "honestly", it means they're probably lying

about the blue - this is the exact motivation of many of the participants in these programs

Where I think these programs will really pay off one day is not in the classroom itself (there isn't a large enough quantity to make a huge difference), but in education administration & policy. Many graduates of these programs are leading education reform now, with the most famous being Michelle Rhee of the DC school system. It helps that they don't have education school backgrounds, because they are able to think outside the box, and are less afraid of more business-oriented solutions.

[Vorian Atreides]

Pretty sad that someone who has the ambition to encourage and spark ambition in others to get so little appreciation . . . or that $$ is the only measure of ambition.

How can a teacher who has never been to an ivy inspire those with talent to do what it takes to get there?

Why should potential salary (or desired salary) be a determinant to justifying admission to an ivy? Or to any school for that matter? Last time I looked, the potential to earn six or seven digit salaries is not dependent on attending any particular university. (Colonel Sanders and Dave Thomas of the Wendy's franchise come to mind.)

[Ilyak1986]

i think you vastly overestimate the quality of a Brown education

shout out, south jersey

whenever someone uses words like "frankly" or "honestly", it means they're probably lying

about the blue - this is the exact motivation of many of the participants in these programs

Where I think these programs will really pay off one day is not in the classroom itself (there isn't a large enough quantity to make a huge difference), but in education administration & policy. Many graduates of these programs are leading education reform now, with the most famous being Michelle Rhee of the DC school system. It helps that they don't have education school backgrounds, because they are able to think outside the box, and are less afraid of more business-oriented solutions.

I think you won't find a person in bigger favor of education reform than me (at least for my age). I would so completely overhaul the educational system that we'd have our ratings shoot through the roof.

I believe it's a question of culture. Geeks are not seen as cool--and also, the quintessential image of the geek is also a misconception IMO. Some of the most gorgeous women I have ever seen are in such places as U Mich and Columbia and Lehigh, and do rather well.

If we would promote intelligence rather than "oh you can't toss a football farther than me, you're not cool!", I think you'd see a heck of a lot more brighter kids.

And if you're talking about a business solution, then starting with the first exam, the best student gets a week of free school lunch, and then when the first report cards hit, the top scorer across all classes gets a free marking period of school lunch.

Free lunch. That should encourage some competition among the kids. And then encourage competition among the teachers by higher salaries.

Substitute more squishy courses with more scientific courses to teach critical thinking, and implement such programs as Talented And Gifted (TAG) and others to single out talented kids and give them all sorts of crazy out of the box puzzles to solve.

[kolya23]

Pretty sad that someone who has the ambition to encourage and spark ambition in others to get so little appreciation . . . or that $$ is the only measure of ambition.

How can a teacher who has never been to an ivy inspire those with talent to do what it takes to get there?

Why should potential salary (or desired salary) be a determinant to justifying admission to an ivy? Or to any school for that matter? Last time I looked, the potential to earn six or seven digit salaries is not dependent on attending any particular university. (Colonel Sanders and Dave Thomas of the Wendy's franchise come to mind.)

sounds like Vorian is ready for lunch

[Harry]

I think you won't find a person in bigger favor of education reform than me (at least for my age). I would so completely overhaul the educational system that we'd have our ratings shoot through the roof.

I believe it's a question of culture. Geeks are not seen as cool--and also, the quintessential image of the geek is also a misconception IMO. Some of the most gorgeous women I have ever seen are in such places as U Mich and Columbia and Lehigh, and do rather well.

If we would promote intelligence rather than "oh you can't toss a football farther than me, you're not cool!", I think you'd see a heck of a lot more brighter kids.

And if you're talking about a business solution, then starting with the first exam, the best student gets a week of free school lunch, and then when the first report cards hit, the top scorer across all classes gets a free marking period of school lunch.

Free lunch. That should encourage some competition among the kids. And then encourage competition among the teachers by higher salaries.

Substitute more squishy courses with more scientific courses to teach critical thinking, and implement such programs as Talented And Gifted (TAG) and others to single out talented kids and give them all sorts of crazy out of the box puzzles to solve.
You ahd a rough childhood, didn't you. It isn't easy for you geeks. And then to not get into an Ivy League school - no wonder you're so bitter. And at only 22 years old. I feel sorry for you.

[Vorian Atreides]

sounds like Vorian is ready for lunch
too true, but I hope the examples help drive home the point.

Now for mexican food (or whatever the cafeteria is serving today . . . hopefully not Mystery Meat)!

[Ilyak1986]

You ahd a rough childhood, didn't you. It isn't easy for you geeks. And then to not get into an Ivy League school - no wonder you're so bitter. And at only 22 years old. I feel sorry for you.

Yes, I did, but not because I was a "geek". And once again, I'm not bitter because I didn't get into an ivy league school. I just don't like being #2, and America is far worse than #2 at k-12.

[erosewater]

I think you won't find a person in bigger favor of education reform than me (at least for my age). I would so completely overhaul the educational system that we'd have our ratings shoot through the roof.

I believe it's a question of culture. Geeks are not seen as cool--and also, the quintessential image of the geek is also a misconception IMO. Some of the most gorgeous women I have ever seen are in such places as U Mich and Columbia and Lehigh, and do rather well.

If we would promote intelligence rather than "oh you can't toss a football farther than me, you're not cool!", I think you'd see a heck of a lot more brighter kids.

And if you're talking about a business solution, then starting with the first exam, the best student gets a week of free school lunch, and then when the first report cards hit, the top scorer across all classes gets a free marking period of school lunch.

Free lunch. That should encourage some competition among the kids. And then encourage competition among the teachers by higher salaries.

Substitute more squishy courses with more scientific courses to teach critical thinking, and implement such programs as Talented And Gifted (TAG) and others to single out talented kids and give them all sorts of crazy out of the box puzzles to solve.

With every post you unintentionally give us more insight into how you came to your misguided opinions.

Did they used to dunk your head in the toilet?

[Loner]

Something you might want to think about is it's better to be top of your class in the second tier school than utterly forgettable at the top school. There are only a handful of companies and fields where the name of the school alone is going to make the difference for you. (And the actuarial field is decidedly not one of them).

[Ilyak1986]

With every post you unintentionally give us more insight into how you came to your misguided opinions.

Did they used to dunk your head in the toilet?

Very funny. No they didn't, you clown, no they didn't. I didn't get beat up or pranked on or anything else of the nature. Heck, I myself did my fair share of bullying.

I've put my foot into quite a few things back when I was in k-12, but my thoughts are about the economy. You get enough talented people in the right places and we can start inventing and innovating again. Best way to do that is to start to build these innovation drones (oxymoron, I know) up when they're young.

[otley]

And if you're talking about a business solution, then starting with the first exam, the best student gets a week of free school lunch, and then when the first report cards hit, the top scorer across all classes gets a free marking period of school lunch.

Free lunch. That should encourage some competition among the kids. And then encourage competition among the teachers by higher salaries.


Poor kids already get free lunch all year.

[Ilyak1986]

Poor kids already get free lunch all year.

See that's the problem. We award the poor for being poor, and give no aid to the meritorious for it.

And it was just an idea.

[Rockn_Actuary]

In the meantime, those that say money isn't a factor are kidding themselves. Until you're out of debt and have a family living in financial security, everyone has a price--and if you "do what you love" despite financial hardships to your family, your wife should kick you out of the house for prioritizing an enjoyable job before your family.


And what should a wife do when her husband works 18 hour days to earn 6 figures? He's never home, he hates his job, she hates him for it. Come on now, there is something to be said for loving what you do.

[Rockn_Actuary]

See that's the problem. We award the poor for being poor, and give no aid to the meritorious for it.

And it was just an idea.

So that's why people are poor - for the rewards! Damn, I should have thought about that. Their life is so great, what the hell am I doing living in a house, working at an office and PAYING for lunch?? I've gone about this all wrong.

Thanks, Ilyak for bringing to my attention the bright side of poverty.

[Jonas Grumby]

Heck, I myself did my fair share of bullying.


With every post you unintentionally give us more insight into how you came to your misguided opinions.

:iatp:

[Ilyak1986]

And what should a wife do when her husband works 18 hour days to earn 6 figures? He's never home, he hates his job, she hates him for it. Come on now, there is something to be said for loving what you do.

That's also a case of bad priorities. What's the point of a family without being able to see them?

Also, Rockn, about the poor: who said poverty was good? I'm just saying that this is America. Your poverty is your own fault, stop feeling entitled for anything to get you out.