View Full Version : MFE and MLC, separate dates
Mc Lovin
07-07-2008, 01:53 PM
MFE and MLC have nothing in common, and yet, they are offered on the same date. MFE is an exam on option pricing and derivatives and MLC is an exam on life contingencies. They even share the same lettering, M before there respectable letter identifiers, which seems to imply that they are related. I could argue that FM shares more in common with MFE (derivatives portion of the exams); however, they are not on the same date.
Exam committee, could we offer MFE and MLC on different dates? The reason I propose this is obvious: so we could concentrate on each exam separately, rather than treating them as a unit. This is being done with all the other exams. For those people who wish to retake an exam or even double up, it would be advantageous and appropriate to take the exams on seperate days.
tommie frazier
07-07-2008, 02:09 PM
how soon you thinking? not likely before you are through them, as exam dates are actually set way more than a year in advance. eventually, both will be CBT (3 years?).
cubs1908
07-07-2008, 02:33 PM
MFE and MLC have nothing in common, and yet, they are offered on the same date. MFE is an exam on option pricing and derivatives and MLC is an exam on life contingencies. They even share the same lettering, M before there respectable letter identifiers, which seems to imply that they are related. I could argue that FM shares more in common with MFE (derivatives portion of the exams); however, they are not on the same date.
Exam committee, could we offer MFE and MLC on different dates? The reason I propose this is obvious: so we could concentrate on each exam separately, rather than treating them as a unit. This is being done with all the other exams. For those people who wish to retake an exam or even double up, it would be advantageous and appropriate to take the exams on seperate days.
It definitely would have made more sense to pair MFE with FM, but I guess the Actuary Gods considered MFE to fall under "actuarial models" instead.
Mc Lovin
07-07-2008, 02:34 PM
dang. I thought I'd hear that. Oh well, I could write a letter asking to change setting exam dates in advance, but that would probably be in vain.
Mc Lovin
07-07-2008, 02:36 PM
It definitely would have made more sense to pair MFE with FM, but I guess the Actuary Gods considered MFE to fall under "actuarial models" instead.
Yea, as an actuary, I use these actuarial models frequently on the job. I got a huge spreadsheet on itos lemma and brownian motion configured. I'm gonna get a promotion soon!
campbell
07-07-2008, 02:43 PM
Yea, as an actuary, I use these actuarial models frequently on the job. I got a huge spreadsheet on itos lemma and brownian motion configured. I'm gonna get a promotion soon!
Some of us use stochastic models all the time, yes sometimes even including our old friend geometric brownian motion. Sure, Ito's Lemma doesn't come up that often for me, but that's just because I'm doing Monte Carlo straightforward simulation as opposed to trying to solve an SDE.
Anyway, it's getting so that no actuary can look at the liability side without considering the asset side.
MFE and MLC have nothing in common, and yet, they are offered on the same date. MFE is an exam on option pricing and derivatives and MLC is an exam on life contingencies. They even share the same lettering, M before there respectable letter identifiers, which seems to imply that they are related. I could argue that FM shares more in common with MFE (derivatives portion of the exams); however, they are not on the same date.
Exam committee, could we offer MFE and MLC on different dates? The reason I propose this is obvious: so we could concentrate on each exam separately, rather than treating them as a unit. This is being done with all the other exams. For those people who wish to retake an exam or even double up, it would be advantageous and appropriate to take the exams on seperate days.
It is a brainpower challenge to have both exams on the same day. The brain is hard like a stone after the MLC in the morning, and a half-empty battery for MFE in the afternoon. I hope they will be on separate days. So people can write them in better body condition in the same exam period, and that could reduce travel time to more senior exams.
Tsk tsk. Wait until you hit the FSA exams - 6 hours of exams on one day, and no way to get partial credit. :roll:
The Spocker
07-23-2008, 10:39 AM
Tsk tsk. Wait until you hit the FSA exams - 6 hours of exams on one day, and no way to get partial credit. :roll:
there's a reason these are called PRELIMINARY exams. because they aren't supposed to be as hard as FSA exams.
Also, as someone said, these 2 exams are completely different topics. As someone who tried sitting for both once, i agree that separate days would be much better for the candidate.
colby2152
07-23-2008, 04:05 PM
Yea, as an actuary, I use these actuarial models frequently on the job. I got a huge spreadsheet on itos lemma and brownian motion configured. I'm gonna get a promotion soon!
Wow, that's cool!
Some of us use stochastic models all the time, yes sometimes even including our old friend geometric brownian motion. Sure, Ito's Lemma doesn't come up that often for me, but that's just because I'm doing Monte Carlo straightforward simulation as opposed to trying to solve an SDE.
Anyway, it's getting so that no actuary can look at the liability side without considering the asset side.
Even cooler... this is my goal, to actually apply Financial Economics and Stochastic Calculus to liabilities, specifically, the governed interest rates that affect them.
Tsk tsk. Wait until you hit the FSA exams - 6 hours of exams on one day, and no way to get partial credit. :roll:
You are implying that preliminary exams give out partial credit?
there's a reason these are called PRELIMINARY exams. because they aren't supposed to be as hard as FSA exams.
Also, as someone said, these 2 exams are completely different topics. As someone who tried sitting for both once, i agree that separate days would be much better for the candidate.
Hmm; I never thought that the prelims were easy.:crazy:
The Spocker
07-23-2008, 04:47 PM
Hmm; I never thought that the prelims were easy.:crazy:
where did I say that?
barry
07-23-2008, 05:48 PM
You are implying that preliminary exams give out partial credit?
I think she was saying that you can fail MLC but pass MFE (or the other way around), but you can't fail the morning and pass the afternoon of an FSA exam- you either pass it all or fail it all.
barry
07-23-2008, 05:56 PM
I agree that MLC and MFE should be given on 2 separate days. I think that because they are offered together they are still being treated by some as 1 exam. This may have diminished in recent sittings, but at first, many companies expected students to take both at the same time. Instead of spending all of their time trying to double-up on these exams, students can use some of their spare time to begin the FAP modules.
I think it would be more fair to have them on separate days. For the FSA-level exams, every test-taker has to deal with an all-day exam, so everyone is on the same ground. For MFE and MLC, those who try to double-up are at a disadvantage, since they are more tired for the afternoon exam than those who arrive fresh.
Mc Lovin
07-23-2008, 08:58 PM
yup yup see everyone is agreeing with me. They are two distinct exams. M is not MLC + MFE. We don't see FM and P on the same day. There is all this talk about having exams offer more frequently but whats it matter when these two are on the same day. FAP modules are fine, but what about people who just begun the process and are unsure whether or not to go the CAS route instead?
You are implying that preliminary exams give out partial credit?
All I meant was that Exam M - formerly one exam - has been separated into two parts. You could, at least in theory ;), pass either one alone, and take the other on a subsequent sitting.
Even cooler... this is my goal, to actually apply Financial Economics and Stochastic Calculus to liabilities, specifically, the governed interest rates that affect them.
Are you sure you want to pursue this course? You have been following the debate over Financial Economics in the pension forum, haven't you?
no driver
07-24-2008, 10:10 AM
All I meant was that Exam M - formerly one exam - has been separated into two parts. You could, at least in theory ;), pass either one alone, and take the other on a subsequent sitting.
If you take a look at the old Exam M syllabus and the new "Exam M" syllabus, MLC and MFE, you will note that the MFE topics are conspicuously absent from the old Exam M syllabus. This is not an exam that has been split into two parts. This is an exam that had some material moved to C and another completely different exam that was dropped in beside it.
:roll:
I hope you don't expect every job assignment to fit neatly into a particular line of the syllabus.
no driver
07-24-2008, 10:17 AM
Not at all, but the SOA has created some serious confusion about the MFE exam by pretending that it is part B of the previous Exam M. I fully expect the FSA exams to kick my butt, but I don't think that asking for MFE and MLC to be offered on separate days is unreasonable, especially if they really expect folks to try both at the same time.
The Spocker
07-24-2008, 12:20 PM
not to be pushy, but are we going to hear from someone like bruce or is jmo all we are going to get?
colby2152
07-24-2008, 01:14 PM
I think she was saying that you can fail MLC but pass MFE (or the other way around), but you can't fail the morning and pass the afternoon of an FSA exam- you either pass it all or fail it all.
That is because MFE and MLC are still separate exams. There is no longer an exam M. Preliminary exams went from 4 to 5.:rimshot:
colby2152
07-24-2008, 01:17 PM
Are you sure you want to pursue this course? You have been following the debate over Financial Economics in the pension forum, haven't you?
Yes, I have been following Dan Moore's thread. I am not 100% sure on the ability to project these funding rates, so the use of financial economics is dimished in pensions modeling future funding rates is forbidden.
colby2152
07-24-2008, 01:18 PM
not to be pushy, but are we going to hear from someone like bruce or is jmo all we are going to get?
If you build it, Bruce will come.
If you build it, Bruce will come.
But when he shows up, I predict that you won't get any sympathy from him, either.
cubs1908
07-24-2008, 01:26 PM
If you take a look at the old Exam M syllabus and the new "Exam M" syllabus, MLC and MFE, you will note that the MFE topics are conspicuously absent from the old Exam M syllabus. This is not an exam that has been split into two parts. This is an exam that had some material moved to C and another completely different exam that was dropped in beside it.
That is correct. In addition, they raised the total exam time from 4 hours to 4 1/2 hours.
Perfect6
07-24-2008, 01:35 PM
Nobody's forced you to take them the same date, you are free to take one in November and the other in May.
If you so strongly feel that MFE should be the 2nd part of FM and not MLC and that the 2 parts should be offered on different day... then you can take them both FM and MFE on different days, I don't understand the problem.
The bottom line is that it is up to you to chart your path through exams, do it to your own advantage. The SOA will never be able to structure a system that every candidate favors, nor is it their responsibility.
The Spocker
07-24-2008, 01:44 PM
The SOA will never be able to structure a system that every candidate favors, nor is it their responsibility.
I don't think any candidate would complain if you had 1 exam a day
DaBears
07-24-2008, 01:46 PM
Surely I'm not the first to think of this...
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=5686
Mc Lovin
07-24-2008, 01:53 PM
Nobody's forced you to take them the same date, you are free to take one in November and the other in May.
If you so strongly feel that MFE should be the 2nd part of FM and not MLC and that the 2 parts should be offered on different day... then you can take them both FM and MFE on different days, I don't understand the problem.
The bottom line is that it is up to you to chart your path through exams, do it to your own advantage. The SOA will never be able to structure a system that every candidate favors, nor is it their responsibility.
:confused: I think you are missing the point. P, FM, MLC, MFE, and C are distinct exams. Have we seen in the past where distinct exams where offered in the same day? I don't recall that ever happening. Even if MLC and MFE were on back to back dates, that would be fine - I would have probably sat for both. However, having them on the same day is very mentally draining and is a risky proposition for those who believe they can double up. Maybe I'm risk adverse, but I don't want to try it. This is more material than the last course offerings of P, FM, M, and C so its only fair to have them on separate dates. Yes, exam structures have changed in the past, and yes, maybe to the favor or disfavor of other candidates. However, the goal is to keep the difficulty on par with past sittings, while trying to reduce travel time. They have already done this by offering P 4 times a year. Why not, in the same vein, offer MLC and MFE on separate days.
The last sentence is just ludicrous. I'm sure every candidate will favor 4 times of exam P rather than twice.
Mc Lovin
07-24-2008, 01:54 PM
I don't think any candidate would complain if you had 1 exam a day
my point exactly
Mc Lovin
07-24-2008, 01:55 PM
Surely I'm not the first to think of this...
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=5686
:shake2:
Phil de cube
07-24-2008, 03:05 PM
Hmm; I never thought that the prelims were easy.:crazy:
Depends when you took them. They certainly have gotten a hell of a lot easier in the past 2 years.
P, FM, MLC, MFE, and C are distinct exams. Have we seen in the past where distinct exams where offered in the same day? I don't recall that ever happening. Even if MLC and MFE were on back to back dates, that would be fine - I would have probably sat for both. However, having them on the same day is very mentally draining and is a risky proposition for those who believe they can double up. Maybe I'm risk adverse, but I don't want to try it. This is more material than the last course offerings of P, FM, M, and C so its only fair to have them on separate dates. Yes, exam structures have changed in the past, and yes, maybe to the favor or disfavor of other candidates. However, the goal is to keep the difficulty on par with past sittings, while trying to reduce travel time. They have already done this by offering P 4 times a year. Why not, in the same vein, offer MLC and MFE on separate days.
:iatp: Good points.
I'm sure every candidate will favor 4 times of exam P rather than twice.
That would be great for MLC, MFE, C to move to 4 times a year, too, given C will be the next to convert to CBT in 2009 (though, no specific date yet).
Mc Lovin
07-24-2008, 03:27 PM
Depends when you took them. They certainly have gotten a hell of a lot easier in the past 2 years.
You mind supporting how P, FM, MLC, MFE, and C are a "hell of a lot easier". Thats bogus and is not really reflected in the pass rates.
The difficulty of FAP 1-8 is most likely easier than Course 5 and 6. But thats not in question.
tommie frazier
07-24-2008, 04:31 PM
the problem is that the people who broke it into two pieces still viewed it as one exam, where the exam takers (correctly, IMO) view it as 2. so what if they are smaller. there are 2 signups, and 2 different grades.
the problem will be gone in 2 years when they go CBT. But if they could move the fall 2009 dates (maybe those are still changeable) people wouldn't object.
Laurelinda
07-24-2008, 07:01 PM
there's a reason these are called PRELIMINARY exams. because they aren't supposed to be as hard as FSA exams.
I don't see where that is addressed in the definition of "preliminary": "something that precedes or is introductory or preparatory". Supposedly introductory material isn't as hard as later material because it doesn't require the same prerequisites, but that says nothing about how strenuous the actual exam ordeal should be.
I understand requesting that MFE and MLC be offered on separate days. I don't understand complaining about it, or insisting that the current system isn't fair.
the problem is that the people who broke it into two pieces still viewed it as one exam, where the exam takers (correctly, IMO) view it as 2. so what if they are smaller. there are 2 signups, and 2 different grades.
How is this a problem? If they are 2 separate exams, most will only take one per sitting, and it won't matter what day the other one is offered. :shrug:
Many of us had to take FSA exams during month-end crunch time in May. Was that not mentally draining? There's always something inconvenient about a schedule--you just have to deal.
The Spocker
07-24-2008, 09:21 PM
I understand requesting that MFE and MLC be offered on separate days. I don't understand complaining about it, or insisting that the current system isn't fair.
I'm not complaining about it. I've already completed MLC. From this point on, no exams occur on the same day. I was only stating my opinion as someone who took both at the same time. I could care less what happens
Ncrug
07-24-2008, 10:30 PM
To be technical (and I'm not taking a side about whether they should be on the same day or not), the former CAS Exam 3 had 3F/MFE and 3L as one. I know 3L isn't MLC, but it's similar. Also, the CAS used to accept SOA Exam M as credit for CAS 3. That's why they're associated.
I don't think any candidate would complain if you had 1 exam a day
Oh come on. For any action the SOA takes, there will always be at least one candidate who complains. ;-)
DaBears
07-25-2008, 09:14 AM
I don't see where that is addressed in the definition of "preliminary": "something that precedes or is introductory or preparatory". Supposedly introductory material isn't as hard as later material because it doesn't require the same prerequisites, but that says nothing about how strenuous the actual exam ordeal should be.
I understand requesting that MFE and MLC be offered on separate days. I don't understand complaining about it, or insisting that the current system isn't fair.
:tup: exactly
sheesh, kids, nothing's ever easy. ask nicely, you might get somewhere. It's just not that unfair. It's mildly unfair, like the fact that written exams are handwritten, proving unfair to scribblers. It's not seriously unfair, like quietly announcing material added to a syllabus four days before the exam. Let's keep it in perspective folks.
The Spocker
07-25-2008, 10:22 AM
:tup: exactly
sheesh, kids, nothing's ever easy. ask nicely, you might get somewhere. It's just not that unfair. It's mildly unfair, like the fact that written exams are handwritten, proving unfair to scribblers. It's not seriously unfair, like quietly announcing material added to a syllabus four days before the exam. Let's keep it in perspective folks.
what's the harm in making it on separate days? that's our point.
what's the harm in making it on separate days? that's our point.
No harm, actually, but if the CAS hadn't disagreed about the content emphasis, it would have been a single exam. Regardless of how disparate the topics may appear. :guitar:
no driver
07-25-2008, 11:22 AM
No harm, actually, but if the CAS hadn't disagreed about the content emphasis, it would have been a single exam. Regardless of how disparate the topics may appear. :guitar:
But in reality, it is two different exams. For both societies. And for the record, CAS offers Exam 3L a full week before MFE this fall.
Mc Lovin
07-31-2008, 12:26 AM
But in reality, it is two different exams. For both societies. And for the record, CAS offers Exam 3L a full week before MFE this fall.
:iatp:
LifeAct
08-01-2008, 07:59 AM
There seems to be 2 different arguements being made here.
MFE is more like FM than MLC.
MFE should be offered on a different day than MLC because many people consider them to be one exam.
This makes no sense to me. If a candidate feels that MFE is more like FM, then they should be taking them at the same time. The CBT FM has to be taken within a window and the paper version is on a different day than MFE.
Some of these complaints sound very similar to the complaints when there were about 60 different 1 hour tests. (from what I have heard, I was a just a young lad in those days)
ConfusedNY
08-01-2008, 09:18 AM
the problem is that the people who broke it into two pieces still viewed it as one exam, where the exam takers (correctly, IMO) view it as 2. so what if they are smaller. there are 2 signups, and 2 different grades.
the problem will be gone in 2 years when they go CBT. But if they could move the fall 2009 dates (maybe those are still changeable) people wouldn't object.
This is a good point. If the SOA/CAS were to move the exams to 2 different days it might convince some employers that they are 2 exams.
I took the 2 exams seperately and would suggest it to anyone. The MFE is very light and I was also able to complete the modules in that time period. MLC was just too big to add any other studying to. MLC is basically the previous M which was much too large and many failed over and over. The new MLC is a lighter version of M.
THE SOA DOES NOT WANT TO ADMIT THAT THEY ADDED ONE MORE EXAM.
I also think some employers also do not want to admit this.
Waa Waa
Visit the fair (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=5686)
_BullDog_
08-01-2008, 09:23 AM
:iatp:
LifeAct
08-01-2008, 09:35 AM
Waa Waa
Visit the fair (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=5686)
Can we make the fair a sticky?
campbell
08-01-2008, 10:14 AM
They didn't want to admit they added an exam?
Then why didn't they try the same thing with the FSA exams? Having two Course 8s (essentially) isn't fun. Adding a prelim is small beer compared to that.
Waa Waa
Visit the fair (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=5686)
I think the whole point is that I haven't ever heard any reason why it should be on the same day.
The Spocker
08-01-2008, 11:32 PM
Waa Waa
Visit the fair (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=5686)
:pdftt:
we are here expressing legitmate concerns. please take your trolling elsewhere.
Guy Smiley
08-02-2008, 12:57 PM
:pdftt:
we are here expressing legitmate concerns. please take your trolling elsewhere.
Call JMO a troll isn't likely to help you out.
You're expressing a legitimate concern. Just not a very important concern.
BingBoing
08-02-2008, 04:59 PM
The SOA still considers both MFE and MLC part of the same exam, Exam 3. This could be the reason why they don't have them on different days. If they start viewing it as exam 3 and 4 and make C exam 5, then maybe things will change.
campbell
08-03-2008, 01:50 PM
You know, my various college courses were separate, and sometimes they'd schedule the finals (3 hours each!) on the same day! It was at the same college! What's up with that! I once had 4 final exams in the same day! Yowza.
Heck, I remember the written qualifiers for grad school, and we had multiple parts in one day. That was pretty brutal. And don't get me started on the oral qualifiers.
In any case, I'm guessing (I have no clue, really) that the reason that the two exams are scheduled for the same day, at different times, is for the convenience of the SOA. It may have started because the thinking was that they were two parts of the same exam, but now I'm thinking it's because the length allows them to put the two on the same day. It's probably cheaper in terms of rental costs and shipping, too. So they do it. As P and FM are shorter than the old Courses 1 & 2, if they weren't CBT, they could have put those on the same day as well.
I understand getting your brain wrung out by these exams, but as stated above a) the SOA written exams are going to give you this treat, and it's not like you can pass the morning half and fail the afternoon half b) you don't have to take both on the same sitting (I took Courses 1 & 2 on the same sitting - consecutive days, but it would have made no difference if they had been on the same day...but that was my own choice) c) this is a temporary situation until they transition to CBT over the next few years (hopefully you will have moved on by then, but the annoyance is temporary, is what I'm saying).
I think the whole point is that I haven't ever heard any reason why it should be on the same day.
Because, regardless of how CAS considers it, the SOA thinks it is two portions of one exam. That's why both parts are still designated "M" something.
ETA: What BingBoing said. Plus I also agree with Campbell. Recall that when there were hundreds of little pieces, it took a big hunk of the month to do all the exams. Employers (who are the PAYING customers, you know) really prefer that exams are over and done with in about a week.
Laurelinda
08-05-2008, 01:08 PM
You know, my various college courses were separate, and sometimes they'd schedule the finals (3 hours each!) on the same day! It was at the same college! What's up with that! I once had 4 final exams in the same day! Yowza.
:iatp:
The Spocker
08-05-2008, 02:29 PM
:iatp:
please, I showed up at my college exams drunk and still passed/did well. you really want to compare a college "education" to an soa exam?
campbell
08-05-2008, 02:36 PM
please, I showed up at my college exams drunk and still passed/did well. you really want to compare a college "education" to an soa exam?
Well, this is why I also mentioned grad school qualifying exams, which were a =wee= bit harder than SOA exams. I understand that some college finals are less than challenging (to say the least.)
Danny Boy
08-05-2008, 03:09 PM
please, I showed up at my college exams drunk and still passed/did well. you really want to compare a college "education" to an soa exam?
I'm sure many of us had classes that were more difficult, and had a lower passing percentage, than the modules.
campbell
08-05-2008, 03:33 PM
Probably not, unless you mean by passing percentage: getting an A.
Of course, the highest failing percentage I ever saw in a class I taught was the GED-level math class. That was mainly due to people not showing up to the class, though.
please, I showed up at my college exams drunk and still passed/did well. you really want to compare a college "education" to an soa exam?
You are right, trying to make that comparison is silly. I would rather have 10 finals on the same day then 2 actuarial exams on 1 day.
abwoc
08-06-2008, 10:23 AM
But in reality, it is two different exams. For both societies. And for the record, CAS offers Exam 3L a full week before MFE this fall.
So, CAS is best?
Tight Tin Foil Hat
08-06-2008, 11:07 AM
Depends when you took them. They certainly have gotten a hell of a lot easier in the past 2 years.
So... I'm not as smart as I thought? Damn!
LifeAct
08-09-2008, 09:34 PM
Depends when you took them. They certainly have gotten a hell of a lot easier in the past 2 years.
I guess that means you finished them 2 years ago.
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