House voting now on bailout

[Aaron Brachowitz]

Currently 122 yea, 114 nay

[H.R. Paperstacks]

Can someone add personal debt?

[Need Vacation]

will be very close!
rejected

[Aaron Brachowitz]

Nays have pulled ahead 223-199! Math is hard, but I think 223 is >50% of 435.
:party:

[Aaron Brachowitz]

CNBC is reporting that it has failed.

[satogaeru]

:party:

[H.R. Paperstacks]

Maybe wachovia failing wasn't enough.

[Listeria]

CNBC is reporting that it has failed.

Who blocked it?

[douglan]

Let the political posturing by the Ds and Rs begin!

[H.R. Paperstacks]

Let the political posturing by the Ds and Rs begin!

I don't think they were expecting this many of them to posture and vote nay.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

That was too close, although I am happy it failed.

Although, something tells me that Bush/Paulson et al will keep at it.

[douglan]

I don't think they were expecting this many of them to posture and vote nay.

I thought Pelosi said they had the votes in the house. Woops!

Actually, congrats should go to those house members who actually listened to the 90%+ of their constituents. :tup:

[Wendy Crewson]

And now I am watching the Dow...................

[H.R. Paperstacks]

And now I am watching the Dow...................

:Time to invest:

[zeuz]

I ain't bailing out until I have my parachute on. (I need a golden parachute.)

[Mopus]

The vote is still open. There's been 1 flip. Dems looking for 10 more. CNBC says heavy arm twisting going on.

[Listeria]

I wish I had a golden umbrella this year. :-(

[Keep It Real, Yo]

I might put $100-$200 in some cheap stuff on Wednesday

[Listeria]

The vote is still open. There's been 1 flip. Dems looking for 10 more. CNBC says heavy arm twisting going on.
Are people moving about the place pestering each other?

[H.R. Paperstacks]

The dow just dropped 500.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EDJI

[Wendy Crewson]

I thought that the lady said that this was a fifteen minute vote. What's happening? Can you tell I'm a C-SPAN newbie?

[Keep It Real, Yo]

The vote is still open. There's been 1 flip. Dems looking for 10 more. CNBC says heavy arm twisting going on.

Arm twisting? Get Cheney in there! He'll get some vote flipped!

Or Jack Bauer! Jack has 24 hours to get the bill passed! And he'll get it passed by any means necessary!

[Rickson]

I have a friend that works at an office for a rep and she said the phones were ringing NON stop saying no, email and letters pouring in, all against the bailout.

[Westley]

The vote is still open. There's been 1 flip. Dems looking for 10 more. CNBC says heavy arm twisting going on.
It's all public record, so if you flip now, everybody knows that you're the guy that directly gave $700B to Wall Street. Gonna be hard to flip them. I suspect that they will have to put in at least a few more (largely face-saving and meaningless) protections and re-vote.

[Rickson]

:Time to invest:

When 1 oz of gold = djia is when it's time to invest...or at least gets close...

[JBGolf35]

I picture a chaotic room of noogies and indian burns. Can someone confirm?

[Wendy Crewson]

There really is something profound about this when you consider that Bushie is for the rescue and so many Repubs are against it. Gives me agita.

[Actuary321]

My quote on Yahoo says the Dow dropped 705 from the previous close before it started going back up. Now around -480

[Need Vacation]

Great! Democracy rules!

[Mopus]

Gavel down. It's dead. The flip flipped back.

[Wendy Crewson]

Should we all be going to Walmart and buying tunafish and powdered milk? Agita increasing........

[Actuary321]

They are going to reconsider.

[H.R. Paperstacks]

What a bunch of wimps!

[H.R. Paperstacks]

They just realized that everyone can't vote nay or it won't get passed.

[The President]

Great! Democracy rules!
Its good news until you realize that the people throwing out their opinion have no idea about finance.

[zeuz]

Wait!! The representative from Kentucky wants to add a provision for subsidizing hay!

[Hoosier Voter]

Its good news until you realize that the people throwing out their opinion have no idea about finance.That makes them worse than congress in what way?

[JBGolf35]

Its good news until you realize that the people throwing out their opinion have no idea about finance.

Go on...

[Guerilla poster]

Its good news until you realize that the people throwing out their opinion have no idea about finance.


this is scary man, we are ****ed for 10 years at least...thanks Republicans with your no regulation mantra.

[E. Blackadder]

Wait!! The representative from Kentucky wants to add a provision for subsidizing hay!

That goes to the heart of the issue.

[The President]

That makes them worse than congress in what way?
For one, the average person has not read and debated what is actually in the bill. That might be true about those in congress as well, but should be a lot less likely.

[H.R. Paperstacks]

this is scary man, we are ****ed for 10 years at least...thanks Republicans with your no regulation mantra.

They were just trying to show the country that trickle down economics does work.

[Pseudolus]

this is scary man, we are ****ed for 10 years at least...thanks Republicans with your no regulation mantra.

Why are you so sure this problem dovetails so neatly with your ideological predilections? What is the actual hard evidence that deregulation is to blame for this?

[H.R. Paperstacks]

:co:

[no driver]

The US House website is slashdotted...

[Joe Blow]

:co:

:iatp:

[Pseudolus]

plonk

[Heathen]

Why are you so sure this problem dovetails so neatly with your ideological predilections? What is the actual hard evidence that deregulation is to blame for this?

He doesn't. And, he also doesn't want to admit that Obama's former employer ACORN and similar organizations helped make a large part of this sh!t sandwich.

[cubedbee]

He doesn't. And, he also doesn't want to admit that Obama's former employer ACORN and similar organizations helped make a large part of this sh!t sandwich.

Yup, it's the community organizers' fault that the banking industry made foolish investment :rofl:

[td25er]

I think America is f*cked

[cubedbee]

I think America is f*cked

I agree, but it's because they're going to end up passing this anyway later in the week.

[SirVLCIV]

Wait!! The representative from Kentucky wants to add a provision for subsidizing hay!

Is this true? ("I vote no, unless I can get some earmarks!")

[ShebaPoe]

Why are you so sure this problem dovetails so neatly with your ideological predilections? What is the actual hard evidence that deregulation is to blame for this?

(1) The repeal of the Glass - Steagall act allowed banks to sell securities of their own creation. Previously, if a bank like JP Morgan or another wanted to sell mortgage securities, they would have to buy them from, say, Wachovia. As a result, the amount of due diligence on said securities was greatly diminished; MBS and their derivative instruments often received AAA ratings without any real scrutiny. If investment banks were required to buy the pools from another bank, (as they had been) you could be sure the due diligence would have been extensive. This repeal removed the incentive for banks to limit membership in the MBS pool.



(2) In 2004, the SEC changed the capital requirements for investment banks in such a manner that banks with $5BN or more in assets could use 40-1 leverage, rather than the previously applicable 12-1 standard. Banks granted this privilege included Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch, and Lehman Brothers.


These outcomes are directly responsible for the current situation. They are not the only things, but they are two examples of how deregulation contributed mightily to the current crisis.

[ShebaPoe]

He doesn't. And, he also doesn't want to admit that Obama's former employer ACORN and similar organizations helped make a large part of this sh!t sandwich.

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. This is a mighty dumb post.

[Guerilla poster]

Why are you so sure this problem dovetails so neatly with your ideological predilections? What is the actual hard evidence that deregulation is to blame for this?

the financial industry shoule be regulated, because it is incredibly important to the workings of our country, these products which caused the banks to go under were more or less run outside of any regulatory framework. I don't believe that regulations are needed in everything, like airline companies, but financial companies, yes.

It is not just a Republican problem, I mean Rubin is more at fault than anybody for this crisis.

[H.R. Paperstacks]

(1) The repeal of the Glass - Steagall act allowed banks to sell securities of their own creation. Previously, if a bank like JP Morgan or another wanted to sell mortgage securities, they would have to buy them from, say, Wachovia. As a result, the amount of due diligence on said securities was greatly diminished; MBS and their derivative instruments often received AAA ratings without any real scrutiny. If investment banks were required to buy the pools from another bank, (as they had been) you could be sure the due diligence would have been extensive. This repeal removed the incentive for banks to limit membership in the MBS pool.



(2) In 2004, the SEC changed the capital requirements for investment banks in such a manner that banks with $5BN or more in assets could use 40-1 leverage, rather than the previously applicable 12-1 standard. Banks granted this privilege included Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch, and Lehman Brothers.


These outcomes are directly responsible for the current situation. They are not the only things, but they are two examples of how deregulation contributed mightily to the current crisis.
plonk
:iatp:
There should be a MTS is right emoticon.

[Joe Blow]

plonk

So this is an insult used by nerds and dorks or am I mistaken?

[H.R. Paperstacks]

the financial industry shoule be regulated, because it is incredibly important to the workings of our country, these products which caused the banks to go under were more or less run outside of any regulatory framework. I don't believe that regulations are needed in everything, like airline companies, but financial companies, yes.

It is not just a Republican problem, I mean Rubin is more at fault than anybody for this crisis.

Its part of national security.

[td25er]

I agree, but it's because they're going to end up passing this anyway later in the week.

I think we are whether it happens or not. Oil is probably going to get ridiculous. Investors jumped oil by 25 or 26 bucks last week before it eased at closing. Things are so unstable right now. It's pretty scary.

[Pseudolus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk

(a couple intervening posts confuse the record, but I think you can figger it out)

[Loner]

the financial industry shoule be regulated, because it is incredibly important to the workings of our country, these products which caused the banks to go under were more or less run outside of any regulatory framework. I don't believe that regulations are needed in everything, like airline companies, but financial companies, yes.

It is not just a Republican problem, I mean Rubin is more at fault than anybody for this crisis.

I dunno, I'd like bidnesses that throw 200-ton flying potential bombs into the air every day to have some level of oversight beyond the invisible hand.

[Guerilla poster]

I dunno, I'd like bidnesses that throw 200-ton flying potential bombs into the air every day to have some level of oversight beyond the invisible hand.

yes, but not to the extent of regulations we had pre 1980's.

[ShebaPoe]

the financial industry shoule be regulated, because it is incredibly important to the workings of our country, these products which caused the banks to go under were more or less run outside of any regulatory framework. I don't believe that regulations are needed in everything, like airline companies, but financial companies, yes.

It is not just a Republican problem, I mean Rubin is more at fault than anybody for this crisis.

The reason the banking industry should be regulated is because it enjoys a government sponsored monopoly. Banks must join the Federal Reserve system, and federal reserve notes are the only legal tender. Whether you bank at B of A, Wells Fargo, Wachovia Citigroup or whatever, you're doing business with the same system, and your dollars are recognized in a bank's account at the Federal Reserve. When banks need money, they borrow from each other. There is really only one bank. This is why the industry must be highly regulated; they face no competition.

If banks want total deregulation, let's close the Fed and let them compete against each other without a backstop. But they can't have it both ways.

[Joe Blow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk

(a couple intervening posts confuse the record, but I think you can figger it out)

So the word "plonk" has been used as an insult 20 times on the AO. Eighteen of those times the insult came from you, Pseu. This hasn't caught on. You should give it up.

:shrug:

[notreallyme]

the financial industry shoule be regulated, because it is incredibly important to the workings of our country, these products which caused the banks to go under were more or less run outside of any regulatory framework. I don't believe that regulations are needed in everything, like airline companies, but financial companies, yes.

It is not just a Republican problem, I mean Rubin is more at fault than anybody for this crisis.

Is there are industry with more Gov't involvement than the mortgage industry?

I know there is no amount of facts that will change you preconceived notions but at least take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
The CRA was passed by the 95th United States Congress and signed into law by President Jimmy Carter in 1977 as a result of national grassroots pressure for affordable housing, and despite considerable opposition from the mainstream banking community.

And another tidbit:
In early 1993 President Bill Clinton ordered new regulations for the CRA which would increase access to mortgage credit for inner city and distressed rural communities.[7] The new rules went into effect on January 31, 1995 and featured: requiring strictly numerical assessments to get a satisfactory CRA rating; using federal home-loan data broken down by neighborhood, income group, and race; encouraging community groups to complain when banks were not loaning enough to specified neighborhood, income group, and race; allowing community groups that marketed loans to targeted groups to collect a fee from the banks.[4][6]

The new rules, during a time when many banks were merging and needed to pass the CRA review process to do so, substantially increased the number and aggregate amount of loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers for home loans, some of which were "risky mortgages."


Gov't told businesses write risky loans or we will penalize you. GREAT IDEA

Yeah it's the bankers that pushed for these loans You can thanks both parties for trying to claim every American regardless of income should be able to afford any home they want.

If you don't like Wiki there are p[leanty of links you can go to from there.

[Pseudolus]

(1) The repeal of the Glass - Steagall act allowed banks to sell securities of their own creation. Previously, if a bank like JP Morgan or another wanted to sell mortgage securities, they would have to buy them from, say, Wachovia. As a result, the amount of due diligence on said securities was greatly diminished; MBS and their derivative instruments often received AAA ratings without any real scrutiny. If investment banks were required to buy the pools from another bank, (as they had been) you could be sure the due diligence would have been extensive. This repeal removed the incentive for banks to limit membership in the MBS pool.I've seen the argument that, if the G-S repeal were at fault, it would be different types institutions failing than the ones that actually are.

E.g.:Then there are the things that people think would have helped, but which wouldn't have done anything I can see:

* Repealing Gramm-Leach-Bliley, or at least the provisions that repealed Glass-Steagall's ban on commercial banks entering other lines of financial business. If this were part of the problem, it would be the commercial banks, not the investment banks, that were in trouble.

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/hindsight_regulation.php

(the rest of that post has some interest, as well)

[H.R. Paperstacks]

yes, but not to the extent of regulations we had pre 1980's.
I don't think we need some of the regulation on planes we have now. They took my toothpaste, body oil, and vodka last time I went to chicago.

[Pseudolus]

So the word "plonk" has been used as an insult 20 times on the AO. Eighteen of those times the insult came from you, Pseu. This hasn't caught on. You should give it up.

:shrug:

It's not an insult. It's a placemarker so that I can remind myself of when and why I decided to "ignore" someone. If I feel like relenting, I can go back, check, and realize that whatever moran it was was well worth ignoring.

If it bugs you, hey, put me on ignore.

[H.R. Paperstacks]

plonk

[notreallyme]

If banks want total deregulation, let's close the Fed and let them compete against each other without a backstop. But they can't shouldn't have it both ways.


:tup:

[Patrick Bauer]

I don't think we need some of the regulation on planes we have now. They took my toothpaste, body oil, and vodka last time I went to chicago.
Evil Bastadges!!

[Guerilla poster]

I've seen the argument that, if the G-S repeal were at fault, it would be different types institutions failing than the ones that actually are.

E.g.:

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/hindsight_regulation.php

(the rest of that post has some interest, as well)

I think it is the derivatives not the mortgages causing the problem, defaults really aren't that high. If these mortgages were held by small state banks as in the past, I don't think we would have this problem, of tcourse I can't prove this.

[Eimon Gnome]

All commerce needs regulation: The idea that each consumer should only purchase or transact when they are expert in the issue is ridiculous. Not a one of us on the board would be qualified to buy a car, a microwave, a pound of hamburger. If you let the market run free, there will be fraud. Its just the way people are. They will steal your money.

So, could we go without regulation? Sure. This should fill up the courts in a hurry. Don't write down the rules or guidelines - let every case be judged on its merits. What a nightmare. Half the friggin population would be judges. Anyone in favor of less regulation, and who admits that there will be arguments and disputes, is de facto promoting using the courts.

Less regulation will not change human behavior. It will only alters how we deal with it.

[Pseudolus]

All commerce needs regulation: The idea that each consumer should only purchase or transact when they are expert in the issue is ridiculous. Not a one of us on the board would be qualified to buy a car, a microwave, a pound of hamburger. If you let the market run free, there will be fraud. Its just the way people are. They will steal your money.

So, could we go without regulation? Sure. This should fill up the courts in a hurry. Don't write down the rules or guidelines - let every case be judged on its merits. What a nightmare. Half the friggin population would be judges. Anyone in favor of less regulation, and who admits that there will be arguments and disputes, is de facto promoting using the courts.

Less regulation will not change human behavior. It will only alters how we deal with it.

Who (outside of the Ayn Rand Institute) is arguing for zero regulation?

[SirVLCIV]

I think it is the derivatives not the mortgages causing the problem, defaults really aren't that high. If these mortgages were held by small state banks as in the past, I don't think we would have this problem, of tcourse I can't prove this.

Yup.

It's leverage, pure and simple.

[ShebaPoe]

I've seen the argument that, if the G-S repeal were at fault, it would be different types institutions failing than the ones that actually are.

E.g.:

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/hindsight_regulation.php

(the rest of that post has some interest, as well)

Your author is not such a good source. When the G-S was repealed, commerical and investment banking merged, essentially, and almost everyone who played inthe merged pool has died.

Wachovia (really First Union) tried investment banking, and just went bye bye today. Wachovia failed after that article was written, so I can give your author a pass. Washington Mutual is not an investment bank and is gone good-bye. Same with IndyMac. Many more commercial banks will fail.

If G-S was still in place, Wachovia probably would still exist as a stand alone entity, WaMu and IndyMac definitely would. Dozens of small bank failures and the 100+on the FDIC watch list stand as proof that your author is incorrect about the fate of commercial banks.

[Joe Blow]

It's not an insult. It's a placemarker so that I can remind myself of when and why I decided to "ignore" someone. If I feel like relenting, I can go back, check, and realize that whatever moran it was was well worth ignoring.

If it bugs you, hey, put me on ignore.

I don't think you have a clear idea of the definition of an insult. From my perspective, it seems very insulting.

:wave: Have fun posting.

[Harry]

It's not an insult. It's a placemarker so that I can remind myself of when and why I decided to "ignore" someone. If I feel like relenting, I can go back, check, and realize that whatever moran it was was well worth ignoring.

If it bugs you, hey, put me on ignore.
wuss

[The President]

Is there are industry with more Gov't involvement than the mortgage industry?

I know there is no amount of facts that will change you preconceived notions but at least take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act


And another tidbit:


Gov't told businesses write risky loans or we will penalize you. GREAT IDEA

Yeah it's the bankers that pushed for these loans You can thanks both parties for trying to claim every American regardless of income should be able to afford any home they want.

If you don't like Wiki there are p[leanty of links you can go to from there.
The reason why this is irrelevant is because it is not the inner city and rural mortgages written starting in the 90s that blew up, it was those written mostly to people that bought into the biggest house they could afford on 0% down in 2006. Housing is taking a dump in markets that aren't so much rural or inner city, but predominantly white middle and upper middle class suburbs and the affluent big city neighborhoods.

[Basso]

this is scary man, we are ****ed for 10 years at least...thanks Republicans with your no regulation mantra.

yep...it was definately the Republicans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5tZc8oH--o) that didn't want any regulation.

[Warning...youtube link...not an unbiased report ;) ]

[H.R. Paperstacks]

The reason why this is irrelevant is because it is not the inner city and rural mortgages written starting in the 90s that blew up, it was those written mostly to people that bought into the biggest house they could afford on 0% down in 2006. Housing is taking a dump in markets that aren't so much rural or inner city, but predominantly white middle and upper middle class suburbs and the affluent big city neighborhoods.

I sorta hope the market is has diarrhea.

[notreallyme]

All commerce needs regulation: The idea that each consumer should only purchase or transact when they are expert in the issue is ridiculous. Not a one of us on the board would be qualified to buy a car, a microwave, a pound of hamburger. If you let the market run free, there will be fraud. Its just the way people are. They will steal your money.

So, could we go without regulation? Sure. This should fill up the courts in a hurry. Don't write down the rules or guidelines - let every case be judged on its merits. What a nightmare. Half the friggin population would be judges. Anyone in favor of less regulation, and who admits that there will be arguments and disputes, is de facto promoting using the courts.

Less regulation will not change human behavior. It will only alters how we deal with it.


I could change market to Gov't in many cases in your post and still be correct.

The banks were in partnership with the Gov't not just regulated by them.

[notreallyme]

The reason why this is irrelevant is because it is not the inner city and rural mortgages written starting in the 90s that blew up, it was those written mostly to people that bought into the biggest house they could afford on 0% down in 2006. Housing is taking a dump in markets that aren't so much rural or inner city, but predominantly white middle and upper middle class suburbs and the affluent big city neighborhoods.


:link:

[H.R. Paperstacks]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23599085/

Here is an example of affluent neighborhoods taking a hit.

[notreallyme]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23599085/

Here is an example of affluent neighborhoods taking a hit.


That's far different than claiming it is 'predominately' white middle and upper income.

I'm lookinf for data on foreclosure by income but can't find any.

[H.R. Paperstacks]

That's far different than claiming it is 'predominately' white middle and upper income.

I'm lookinf for data on foreclosure by income but can't find any.

It's probably related to the assumption that inner city residents are mostly black.

[Heathen]

It's probably related to the assumption that inner city residents are mostly black.

I'm not sure were you are going with this, but the assumption that inner city residents are mostly minorities does have support (http://www.isc.hbs.edu/pdf/ICEF_2005.11.15.pdf). I was raised in the inner city of the Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex, but I'm not a minority. Does that make me a minority?

[Aaron Brachowitz]

Paulson has abjectly failed, both as Treasury secretary and as point-man for the rescue bill. Surely he should do the decent thing and resign. Bernanke, too. The uber-loyal Bush probably won't let them, plus he wouldn't be able to find anyone willing to take the job for three months in these conditions.

[H.R. Paperstacks]

I'm not sure were you are going with this, but the assumption that inner city residents are mostly minorities does have support (http://www.isc.hbs.edu/pdf/ICEF_2005.11.15.pdf). I was raised in the inner city of the Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex, but I'm not a minority. Does that make me a minority?

I can't say what he is thinking for sure, but I guess if most minorities are inner city, then in places that aren't inner city(suburbs) they would not be filled with mostly minorities.

[E. Blackadder]

Paulson has abjectly failed, both as Treasury secretary and as point-man for the rescue bill. Surely he should do the decent thing and resign. Bernanke, too. The uber-loyal Bush probably won't let them, plus he wouldn't be able to find anyone willing to take the job for three months in these conditions.

Perhaps the Obama camp can suggest a replacement.

[Heathen]

I can't say what he is thinking for sure, but I guess if most minorities are inner city, then in places that aren't inner city(suburbs) they would not be filled with mostly minorities.

Dekalb and Rockdale counties aren't inner city, but they have very large minority populations. (which is cool because my kids have a chance to talk to their friends about different cultural experiences like I did when I was a kid.)

[Harry]

Perhaps the Obama camp can suggest a replacement.
Bill Clinton?

[SlothropDawg]

Dekalb and Rockdale counties aren't inner city, but they have very large minority populations. (which is cool because my kids have a chance to talk to their friends about different cultural experiences like I did when I was a kid.)If I recall correctly, Clayton County by far led the foreclosure race in metro Atlanta, though the school debacle may be partially to blame. Henry and Dekalb followed, then Rockdale. At least that is what the AJC reported about 6 months ago. Clayton County is something like 80% "minority."

Again, just from my recollection, Gwinnett, Forsyth, Cobb, and Cherokee have been affected far less. For those not in the know, those are the whitest parts of Metro Atlanta.

Of course, the houses in question in my anecdote were mostly first-time homeowners. I'd wager that in Atlanta, this has hit middle class African Americans the hardest. The neighborhoods that I have seen dry up the most are those in South Dekalb and north Henry, $350k+ homes in mostly black areas. Rather than being a race issue, I think it was more first-time homeowners and rapidly upward advancing folks.