Interesting FEM detail I didn't know about

[mr coffee]

Saw this in a post in the edcuation forum about UQAM vs Concordia:


"One mounth ago evaluators from soa came in laval for evaluating the program in order to give a some recognition called "PROGRAM TO DESIGNATE
CENTERS OF ACTUARIAL EXCELLENCE" putting the university in the top and give some exemption for the preliminary exam depending on courses taken in the university with good grades."

I know FEM is on hold and supposedly dead as it was proposed, but did anyone realize the SOA was as far as doing this? I didn't know about it.

[Brad Gile]

Saw this in a post in the edcuation forum about UQAM vs Concordia:


"One mounth ago evaluators from soa came in laval for evaluating the program in order to give a some recognition called "PROGRAM TO DESIGNATE
CENTERS OF ACTUARIAL EXCELLENCE" putting the university in the top and give some exemption for the preliminary exam depending on courses taken in the university with good grades."

I know FEM is on hold and supposedly dead as it was proposed, but did anyone realize the SOA was as far as doing this? I didn't know about it.

Well, here is an soa document dealing with this.
http://www.soa.org/files/pdf/edu-cae-guidelines-site.pdf

If this was actually done recently, I'd say someone has jumped the gun.
Big time.

[Will Durant]

"One mounth ago evaluators from soa came in laval for evaluating the program in order to give a some recognition called "PROGRAM TO DESIGNATE CENTERS OF ACTUARIAL EXCELLENCE" putting the university in the top and give some exemption for the preliminary exam depending on courses taken in the university with good grades."
Somebody is confused. CAE <> give exemption.

[Brad Gile]

Somebody is confused. CAE <> give exemption.

Ah, indeed. :oops:

[Teddy KGB]

Somebody is confused. CAE <> give exemption.

Dear Will Durant,

Someone is confused, but it is not the original poster.

You telling me that a school will be designated a "Center of Actuarial Excellence" but then not be able to offer an exemption? Or vise versa?

:rofl:

Regards,

Teddy KGB

[campbell]

Well, they would likely be able to give exemptions, if any exemptions are allowed.

CAE is about giving research grants, graduate student fellowships, etc. to academic departments or to actuarial science professors.

The FEM stuff relates to undergrad programs, and the CAEs seem more related to grad programs and research.

[bdschobel]

The CAE program was basically initiated by me during my SOA presidency. It has nothing at all to do with FEM!!! It's a way to provide additional funds (from SOA) to good actuarial science programs, but when CAE was proposed, everyone understood that it was not supposed to be a precursor to FEM. I hope that's still understood. It would be a real shame if a good program were used to bolster a bad one.

Bruce

[Teddy KGB]

The CAE program was basically initiated by me during my SOA presidency. It has nothing at all to do with FEM!!! It's a way to provide additional funds (from SOA) to good actuarial science programs, but when CAE was proposed, everyone understood that it was not supposed to be a precursor to FEM. I hope that's still understood. It would be a real shame if a good program were used to bolster a bad one.

Bruce

Dear Bruce Schobel,

Correct me if I am mistaken but this program ships money from the SOA to university professors?

I hope the SOA has a large surplus annually to blow money like that.

Regards,

Teddy KGB

[Mary Frances]

Dear Bruce Schobel,

Correct me if I am mistaken but this program ships money from the SOA to university professors?

I hope the SOA has a large surplus annually to blow money like that.

Regards,

Teddy KGB

Two of the SoA's strategic goals are:
* To "produce and support research that expands the boundaries of actuarial science"
* To "promote the development of intellectual capital and identify opportunities for its application"

Where would you prefer to see the SoA invest funds to address these goals? If you think these are not reasonable goals, can you propose another way for the SoA to tackled ensuring that the Society stays at the forefront of actuarial science?

It's always easy to pooh pooh anything and everything. Harder to be part of the solution. Rather than just be a constant Negative Nancy, how about trying to participate in a dialog exploring where the SoA is headed and why?

[bdschobel]

The SOA does have a large annual surplus, and using some of it to support actuarial education (including through universities) makes perfect sense to me -- and to the SOA Board. Having said that, I'll reemphasize something I've said a lot over the past 3 months: Education and validation are not the same thing! Support for actuarial education implies nothing at all with respect to changing validation requirements, which I believe are not in need of change.

Bruce

[jprep]

This may be the wrong place to post this, but since internships are becoming quite scarce, I feel it would benefit a college student to have taken a course with the following aspects:

- Involves learning how to create projects or mess with excel tables, similar to entry-level work
- Actuaries come to the class as guest speakers.

Let's get theoretical: What would be the best class for a college student's resume? A course in the following:

Course Title: Life Analyst Training
Description: A one-semester course which mimics the training an entry-level actuarial analyst would receive (in general) at a life insurance firm.

Have courses like this available for P&C, Health, and Pensions as well. If there is a way to provide even half of on-the-job training while in college, before someone has a job, then wouldn't a student who passed such a course have an easier time getting a job? Just some absurd thoughts on my mind. :wink:

[Will Durant]

Some folks may disagree, but I would not look favorably upon such a course. College and OTJT are completely different things. All your suggestion does is create a poor man's internship where the role of the employer is played by the university (which is NOT in the business of life insurance) rather than a real employer.

[Lucy]

Some folks may disagree, but I would not look favorably upon such a course. College and OTJB are completely different things. All your suggestion does is create a poor man's internship where the role of the employer is played by the university (which is NOT in the business of life insurance) rather than a real employer.
Nor would I. I'd prefer you took a course in anthropology or graphic design and got a job as a waiter.

[campbell]

I think it makes sense for the SOA and CAS to fund research grants. Not all the grants go to academics, by the way. Sometimes it's consultants [whether corporate, or independent individuals].

[jprep]

Some folks may disagree, but I would not look favorably upon such a course. College and OTJT are completely different things. All your suggestion does is create a poor man's internship where the role of the employer is played by the university (which is NOT in the business of life insurance) rather than a real employer.

Nor would I. I'd prefer you took a course in anthropology or graphic design and got a job as a waiter.

Very true, as it has been discussed that workplace skills, and real world skills, cannot be developed to a great extent in college classes. It just doesn't happen. I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

I'm glad you two feel this way, as I am a career changer myself. And my anthropology class was very informative, along with both of my college history classes.

[ditkaworshipper]

My school's business program had a computer class. From my friends' homework assignments, it was painfully obvious that the excel done in that course was less than I figured out in 2 weeks in an internship. In this regard, you are better served finding a class with VBA or mathematica, not to mention the liberal arts stuff. My experience with college was that it was great for theoretical background, but not so much on the practical application. You need to get into the trenches for that.

[jprep]

I've found throughout my past that no college courses can actually prepare you for the real world - they can only give you the aforementioned theoretical background.

It takes a recession like this to make people finally realize that it's work experience that matters most. Where you go to college might matter a little bit, but ultimately the degree is just a prerequisite for employment.

For example, my mom is a nurse (RN) with a 2-year Associate's degree and more than 15 years of experience. She has contemplated going back to school to get a Bachelor's degree. In Las Vegas, there are plenty of new RN graduates with Bachelor's degrees who cannot find work, who I'm sure would love to have even a fourth of my mom's experience. It's a shame that they can't get their foot in the door, and I thought nursing was recession-proof.

Thanks for the replies! :)

[mr coffee]

This may be the wrong place to post this, but since internships are becoming quite scarce, I feel it would benefit a college student to have taken a course with the following aspects:



Let's get theoretical: What would be the best class for a college student's resume? A course in the following:



Have courses like this available for P&C, Health, and Pensions as well. If there is a way to provide even half of on-the-job training while in college, before someone has a job, then wouldn't a student who passed such a course have an easier time getting a job? Just some absurd thoughts on my mind. :wink:

I think this is a great idea. If someone can't get an internship or coop, they could at least get something close to practical experience through a course like this, if done right. And experience like this may help when interviewing for internships as well. And this would be different than typical university offerings, new and significant. Thinking out loud, a university could do the approach above, or even do something along the lines of the old course 7 approach - intense, group lectures, actuarial models to work with, a final project. Or maybe some MBA type projects - but very actuarial problems. Realistically there's a range in the quality of internship or even entry level assignments, so an internship or entry level experience is no guarantee of valuable educational experience.

[campbell]

I've done a math modeling class similar to what's being described [and a seminar], in applied math.

Sounds like a neat idea for actuarial stuff. It's important to have theoretical coverage in the universities, but I bet some more practical courses will be very popular, and may very well attract more students to the university actuarial programs.

Again, something like this may already exist in some programs. Sounds like a good idea to me.

[SirVLCIV]

I've done a math modeling class similar to what's being described [and a seminar], in applied math.

Sounds like a neat idea for actuarial stuff. It's important to have theoretical coverage in the universities, but I bet some more practical courses will be very popular, and may very well attract more students to the university actuarial programs.

Again, something like this may already exist in some programs. Sounds like a good idea to me.

It would have to be sufficiently rigorous (and challenging), however, to be worth anything. Nothing more annoying than a 'hands on' course that feels like busy work.

[ADoubleDot]

The CAE program was basically initiated by me during my SOA presidency. It has nothing at all to do with FEM!!! It's a way to provide additional funds (from SOA) to good actuarial science programs, but when CAE was proposed, everyone understood that it was not supposed to be a precursor to FEM. I hope that's still understood. It would be a real shame if a good program were used to bolster a bad one.

Bruce

Is this program in place today? Is there a list of such schools? Thanks

[campbell]

http://www.soa.org/education/resources/cae/edu-cae-overview.aspx

http://www.soa.org/education/resources/cae/edu-cae-timeline.aspx

Sounds like we'll hear of the first in December, perhaps?

[Will Durant]

At the Education & Research council breakfast, Stuart Klugman confirmed this and noted that the first round of schools would basically be the ones you'd expect to see on such a list.

[JMO]

At the Education & Research council breakfast, Stuart Klugman confirmed this and noted that the first round of schools would basically be the ones you'd expect to see on such a list.
Do we know how many there are going to be on that initial list?

[Will Durant]

I recall that Stuart said (approximately), but I don't remember the number. Sorry.

[Mary Frances]

I recall that Stuart said (approximately), but I don't remember the number. Sorry.

18 schools applied. The evaluations aren't completed, though, so don't know how many will make it through. I understand that there were also a number who skipped the first round, waiting to see how it all goes before putting together an application.

[no]

I know of a school that did not want to bother with CAE application because
1) too much paper work
2) could not decide who would pay the associated cost (site visit etc)
3) could not figure out whether the payback (grants) is worth the effort (mind
you they did not see any value in having a link in the soa website).
They want to wait and see.

[no]

Way back in this thread Will and Lucy and some others were not
supportive of college courses that handle practical projects.
Why? What is so special about actuarial work?
Engineers do that; many engineers come back to school
for MEng/MBAs.

Now, I am all for having fun in college.

Wouldn't it be fun if Devry start offering an associate degree
on "actuarial technician"; I hear they have a very good placement
service.

PS: Wow two consecutive post on the same thread, must be bored.

[Will Durant]

Engineers do that; many engineers come back to school for MEng/MBAs.
MEng's don't do so for practical experience; they do so for academics.

And to the extent that MBAs get "practical" experience, their programs are a joke.

[ditkaworshipper]

Way back in this thread Will and Lucy and some others were not supportive of college courses that handle practical projects.
Why? What is so special about actuarial work?
Engineers do that; many engineers come back to school
for MEng/MBAs.

Any "practical" project I ever had in college was modelled and seemingly editted to reflect the topic we were learning at the time and thus pretty much useless. Usually colleges are trying to push theory, but real life scenarios rarely fit the theory well enough for demonstration purposes. However, universities are the right place to learn theory and new techniques.

[no]

MEng's don't do so for practical experience; they do so for academics.

And to the extent that MBAs get "practical" experience, their programs are a joke.

MEng <> MSc in Engineering

Wow, you put down MBA?
I know one John Doe, FSA, CFA, FCIA, who went to London School of Business to get the MBA. May be Georgia State MBA is a joke?

[no]

Could some entry level guy (less than 2 years of experience) elaborate
their "real life work experience"? I keep hearing "Excel monkey" phrase.


Mine was, running some sas programs, which were obviously written by
a person who had no programming expertise.

[Mary Frances]

Any "practical" project I ever had in college was modelled and seemingly editted to reflect the topic we were learning at the time and thus pretty much useless. Usually colleges are trying to push theory, but real life scenarios rarely fit the theory well enough for demonstration purposes. However, universities are the right place to learn theory and new techniques.

I ran across a young man last week who just completed a masters in public policy at Michigan. One of their assignments was a consulting project with the company that runs the Ambassador Bridge between the US and Canada (one of the few privately run border crossings for the US, by the way). They evaluated whether expansion of the Bridge could bring significant economic relief to Detroit (no). That's a good example of industry/university cooperation and practical application of theory for the students that we are pretty much lacking in the actuarial field.

[dschobel]

Could some entry level guy (less than 2 years of experience) elaborate
their "real life work experience"? I keep hearing "Excel monkey" phrase.


Mine was, running some sas programs, which were obviously written by
a person who had no programming expertise.

Excel. Lots and lots and lots of excel.

[Animals Are Delicious]

MEng <> MSc in Engineering

Wow, you put down MBA?
I know one John Doe, FSA, CFA, FCIA, who went to London School of Business to get the MBA. May be Georgia State MBA is a joke?

Except for Harvard and Wharton, almost all MBA programs are a joke. It's not about what you do or learn, it's about who you meet.

[Will Durant]

Harvard, seriously?

[ditkaworshipper]

I ran across a young man last week who just completed a masters in public policy at Michigan. One of their assignments was a consulting project with the company that runs the Ambassador Bridge between the US and Canada (one of the few privately run border crossings for the US, by the way). They evaluated whether expansion of the Bridge could bring significant economic relief to Detroit (no). That's a good example of industry/university cooperation and practical application of theory for the students that we are pretty much lacking in the actuarial field.

I will agree that is pretty good, and some of my friends in poli sci/urban and regional planning did get to do these kinds of projects and they absolutely loved it. I was talking more about the math/stat/finance courses that I have taken, and I may be way off base on this one. Do you have any examples in any business or actuarial classes of real world applications being used effectively? From other recent graduates I have spoken to, the undergrad/masters level of math/stats/actuarial science is more theoretical than practical. In either case, I think this was very beneficial for having the ability to analyze more technical documents, so I don't really have complaints about this approach.

[Animals Are Delicious]

Harvard, seriously?

HBS is/isn't a joke?

[Mary Frances]

I will agree that is pretty good, and some of my friends in poli sci/urban and regional planning did get to do these kinds of projects and they absolutely loved it. I was talking more about the math/stat/finance courses that I have taken, and I may be way off base on this one. Do you have any examples in any business or actuarial classes of real world applications being used effectively? From other recent graduates I have spoken to, the undergrad/masters level of math/stats/actuarial science is more theoretical than practical. In either case, I think this was very beneficial for having the ability to analyze more technical documents, so I don't really have complaints about this approach.
Michigan State has an applied math masters ("industrial math") that does have a lot of real world application stuff built in:
http://www.mth.msu.edu/Academic_Programs/graduate/msim/Default.aspx
We interviewed a guy from there - he got snatched up by somebody else, though.

[campbell]

I did this program as a grad student:
http://www.ncsu.edu/crsc/imsm/

Something that seems related:
http://www.ncsu.edu/crsc/iamp.html