Poker

[Numbers Nerd]

So, any of you actuaries play poker? What is your favorite game? What stakes do you play? Any books you recommend?

Me: 5-card draw; big night is $20; "Education of a Poker Player"

[jets fan]

I used to play in high-school, 5 card draw, 5,7 card stud, baseball, blackjack, acey-duecey (sp?) among others. Usually $5-$10 per person with 5, 10 and 25 cent colored chips.

[Gandalf]

Favorite game: Strip poker with the WC Chicks.

Stakes: One item per hand.

Comment: Games go especially quickly on Fridays.

[Maine-iac]

Play with my family. We are cheap. $0.02 ante.

I like seven card stud games such as "Baseball" and its nasty cousin "Football".

If I want to drive my dad nuts, I can always call for "No Peek" :smile:

[You]

I play online at http://www.pokerroom.com or another similar site. Texas Hold 'em is the main game. It's the one they play in the World Series of Poker as seen on ESPN I believe. Great game. You can play for fake money, or if you are brave enough, give them your credit card to play for real dough!

[MNBridge]

Obviously I guess.

I play Texas Hold 'em. A card room was recently opened here (If a year is recent).

I can be found at the 8/16, 15/30 or 30/60 game.

Worm: You know what always cheers me up?
Mike McDermott: No, what's that?
Worm: Rolled up aces over kings. Check-raising stupid tourists and taking
huge pots off of them. Playing all-night high-limit Hold'em at the Taj, "where the sand turns to gold." Stacks and towers of checks I can't even see over.
Mike McDermott: F*** it, let's go.
Worm: Don't tease me.
Mike McDermott: Let's play some cards.
Worm: Yes!

[MNBridge]

New post to answer the first post.

Theory of Poker by Slansky (A Must)
Texas Hold'em for Advanced Players by Slansky
The Psycology of Poker (Can't remember author)

2 + 2 Publishing as far as I can tell has the best books on the subject.

[Cynical Realist]

I'm semi-big time in this waterhole stop of a town - but nothing like that MNPoker guy. In fact I think I may have sat down with him last March and he cleaned me out of 5 bennies in a few hours.

Put my tail between my legs and watched the master for awhile. Finally borrowed a couple hundy got back in and won my stake back plus a little extra for traveling expenses.

I play in a few games here. One game is .25-$5.00 limit. The other is .25-$2.00. We play a lot of Double-Rack Omaha, Pablo (or cadillac), some Challenge, Two-Handed Want It? Want It? Got It!, and many 7-card stud type games (low hole, chicago, etc).

I did get into a small game a few weeks ago which was pretty funny. They played .25-$1.00 but $1.00 was the Max Bet - no raises. So if somebody bet a $1.00, you couldn't raise. Most of the guys were 25-35 and they wanted to keep it "friendly" (meaning guys who showed up short banrolled w/ $40-$60 wouldn't be overwhelmed). I had to struggle all night just to clear $100+ from these guys.

I've explained to them, that they seem to want to play Poker, but don't know how. They were basically playing poker games, with a $1.00 ante to see the next card - so they needed to have some raises to make it real poker. I think I'll have to coddle them on the real way to play. Should be good for $200 minimum a session (My time is expensive, I could be studying). Their biggest mistakes are they have no idea what it takes to win certain games, and they won't fold unless they have no chance to win (My kind of guys).

I could charge them a flat fee for the lessons, but it is usually better if you just take it by sweeping pots, and marvel at your own "dumb-luck".

Haven't read too many books on poker yet, but if MNPoker guy is recommending them I may have to put them on my reading list. At least it might give me a fighting chance this March.

[MNBridge]

Hey CR-

Sorry but chances are I will not be playing in the March games.
Double Rack Omaha, Queens Rule, etc. is NOT poker, and involve about as much strategy as becoming a professional war player. (Which by the way I had a cool 100% win percent at in November :smile:

The following are poker games:
Hold 'em
7 card High or 8 Low
Omaha (Not double)
5 card draw or stud (can be high lo)
Razz

All the other stuff is still gambling but not really poker.

Simple Poker Rule:
The more basic the game the more strategy is involved. The more monkey the game the more luck that is involved.

P.S. Going to Viva on Feb 22nd for the Asian New Year. Of course NYNY is welcoming me with open arms. Hopefully the tiles will be lucky (Yes I realize the only stategy is finding a betting structure and my expected outcome is (and probably will be) negative.)
But Ah the Tile Dealers and Cocktail Waitresses make it well worth it.

[thing]

I'm just getting into it. Some of the folks here at work organize a monthly game -- dealer's choice, .10 minimum bet, .50 maximum raise, $5 max loss per hand. Keeps it low stress. Lots of Hold'em, 7-card hi-low, 5 card draw, 2 and 3 card guts.

I recommend Thursday Night Poker by Peter Steiner. Had my first winning night after reading this book.

[Ammie]

Help me!
I now have "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em..." in my head!!!
http://www.emoticons.f2s.com/misc/General/brickwall.gif

[Mick Fan]

OK, Ammie. I'll help ... :wink:

"Know when to walk away, know when to run ..."

[Another day in Paradise]

"You never count your money when you're sitting at the table"

[The Drunken Actuary]

Back to the original question, sort of...How about video poker. I like to go to vegas and play black jack, but lots of folks say video poker has great odds too. Anybody ever play video poker enough to have an opinion? Last time I was in vegas I played a few times but not too much.

[Cynical Realist]

Simple Poker Rule:
The more basic the game the more strategy is involved. The more monkey the game the more luck that is involved.

MNPoker - I guess that's why you Minnesotan's call them Iowa Chimp Games. I I don't disagree with you. But you have to take the local opportunities where I can get them.

Not going to be there in March??? I just lowered my bankroll needs below 4 figures and raised my expected profit to a cool $350. Although I'll be disappointed your not there, I won't miss the competition especially against the drunken pigeons in that game.

I'm surprised NYNY doesn't have a Limo waiting to whisk you to the airport every Friday. I know they want you back badly.

VIDEO POKER - Yes, have played a ton - know it inside and out. There are money making opportunities there even for the .25 player between the expected value of the game, casino cash back and comps. You need to know the game very well - do not be afraid to pay for some information to learn how to play the different games.

However, the variances of some of the games can create some big swings in the short term - so it does take some bankroll to get past the down swings. There are many different games, some with bad paybacks, some with higher variances. You need to know what you are getting into.

The best bets are to stick to Jacks Or Better 9-6 machines if you can find them anymore. (That's 9 on the FH and 6 on the Flush). A lot of pros also pay a lot of Dueces Wild because of it's lower variance.

If you really want to learn get WINPOKER to practice on your computer at home. It's a great product. There;s a lot of info here: http://www.vphomepage.com/ and you can order WINPOKER here too.

The best part of Video Poker is if you are learning you can sit with your cheat sheets on your lap and play at your oen speed. The trend in the casinos is to dry up the best plays - there are quite a few pros who make a living off these things making 5 figures a year in profit. The casinos are starting to cut back the best opportunities.

You have to know how to read the pay tables - how to find games you know, and what are good Expected Value opportunities to "invest" your money in.

Oh well Jenny just won the semis down under - better get some shut-eye!

[PocketAces]

I played semi-professionally for about 5 years. Exclusively hold-em, generally 20-40, about 1000 hours a year. Also dabbled in tournaments.

[Mick Fan]

See TAN topic ...

[Darth Tater]

I've heard that Actuaries love to gamble. I personally have a thursday night poker game that is almost as important as making mass on Sunday. I've been to Vegas and look forward to going back soon, I hope.

Also, I rarely leave a loser at this little game.

[Numbers Nerd]

Ok, so I got a bit of a lesson on Saturday night. Now I'll ask for some advice. I often dropped out early - I was by far the most conservative player at the game. So I only won four pots in six hours - at a 9-person game. Was it bad luck, or should I stay more often? When the ante is $9, and the bet is $1 or $2, and everyone is in, it seems to me that pot odds change, so maybe you should be like everyone else and always call.
(game was $1 ante, $3 max bet. Played hold-em, 5-card stud, 6-card stud lowball mostly.)

Suggestions?

[switched]

NN:

You took 4 pots in 6 hours? How many did you LOSE? If you came out positive, and only played a few hands, you were doing it right. Boring (since you're out of most hands), but constant positive expectation. Only bet when you think you'll win.

[Cynical Realist]

Can't say - since I don't know what cards you folded on - you probably played too conservatively. I'd say a $9 ante w/ a $1 or $2 bet is quite odd in most games. Generally the Ante may be at the smallest betting limit or double it, but not 9X or 5X it. If that were the case it might make more sense to chase a little more. Also the more people that stay in - the more it pays to chase a marginal hand, especially in Hold 'Em, but generally fold after the flop if you have nothing.

Heard some disturbing news about MNPoker. He got taken by the local yahoos on New Years Day for quite a bundle. Pretty sad when I hear Jensen is walking out of a game with MNPoker up 7 bennies! Unfathomable!

[MNBridge]

New Years Day was quite a beating. 8 big ones. I wish I could say that I played well and still lost but as you well know with Jensen, Boofresne, JT, and the other local hacks that's just not possible.

Got caught behind and started chasing. Would have quit but that's hard when it's at my house.

Now that you've brought up that fiasco, I guess I'll have to play in March.
Yep that's it, name the game Double Omaha, Queens Rule, 727, Pass The Trash, I'll play em all. Except this time it's poker for blood!!

To answer NN,
With the Ante that High you probably do need to play more hands.
Here's a stategy I'd recommend: Keep the betting as low as possible early (pre-flop in Texas) and almost always stay. Once you see the flop when you have a good hand (i.e. 2 pair?) or a good drawing hand (flush, top straight) bet as much as possible. Raise whenever you can.

If you have nothing get out at this point.

In these games the drawing hands will usually beat the made hands. i.e. don't expect Your AK to hold up with an Ace, ,6 ,8, J, 2 on the board. Someone surely has the 6 and 8 for two pair.

Play more drawing hands than high card hands. i.e. suited and touching cards.

I would like to change something someone mentioned in an earlier post. Bet when that bet gives you a positive expected value.

For example
Ah 5h.

Board

Kh, Jc, 7h, 5c, ?

If 4 people are still in bet and raise as much as possible. While chances are you won't win, the times you do (about 1 in 3.5) make it worth it.
Sure win (8 hearts)
Very Probable win (Jh, 5d or 5s, 3 aces)
Giving you a little less than a 14 / 46 chance of winning. Of course if you think someone has 2 kings under this changes to 8/ 46 and you need 6 people in to raise.

Sorry for the Long post CR just got me going.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MNPoker on 2002-01-28 12:13 ]</font>

[Cynical Realist]

Your playing in March? Ouch - sometimes I'm my own worst enemy. When am I going to keep my witty retorts to myself?

Now March is going to be like work. Usually I can just sit back get the cards sweep some pots, watch the other guys drink themselves under the table, and clear 3 to 6 hundred easy, w/o having a stellar night. But you sure do complicate the matter - will probably have to play it tighter and grind out some profit.

[Chiprunner]

I play Texas Hold 'Em, $6-12 in casinos, $10 (non-structured) in a local poker parlor. I also play Omaha Hi-Lo (8-High or Better) and some 7-Stud Hi-Lo.

I agree the home poker varieties are not really poker. Generally, the more exotic the variant (esp those that allow wild cards), the more it becomes a game of chance. Video Poker is not real poker. Pai Gow or Carribean Poker is not real poker.

Both real poker and the games mentioned above involve short-term luck, where a fish who will play 7-deuce offsuit can still beat your rockets. But real-poker becomes a game of skill in the long-run (though we're talking thousands of hours here) and in the higher betting limits (say $20-40 Hold 'Em).

I have the same comment on the relative size of the ante to the bets. The smaller the ante, the tighter (more conservative) you should play. But as with all rules, this also depends on the tightness / looseness of the other players.

Of course, position is very important, especially in Hold 'Em and Omaha, where one can play lower-quality starting hands in late position (close to the button).

David Sklansky, Mason Malmouth and the rest of the 2+2 gang are considered authorities in poker. But if you're just starting, David's Theory of Poker might overwhelm you, even with your math / actuarial skills.

Try Poker for Dummies, it's a good introductory book, but if you play a lot, you might outgrow it quickly.

http://www.pokerdigest.com or http://www.pokerpages.com also has some nice articles. The complete chapter on Hold 'Em in the Dummies book is in one of these sites.

Anybody interested in a poker session during one of the SOA meetings? I'll bring the chips.

[Numbers Nerd]

I got the book "Thursday Night Poker" yesterday for my birthday. It looks excellent for us casual players.

[Cynical Realist]

Numbers Nerd - what is the betting limit on your $9 ante game? I'd agree with MNPoker's statements. Also - I'd bet them big if I had them, and bet them big before the flop if I had good starters. At least test their tolerance level for staying before the flop.

If you can chase some out before the flop it's good to know for when you have some good hands. No sense letting a lot of people hang on to the flop and beat you with a garbage two pair - if you can get the riff-raff out early w/ a big bet. Especially w/ that high of an ante for a payback.

If everybody starts folding, then more reason to keep betting big before the Flop. Poker can be about complete bluffing when you can make it work, it doesn't always have to be about having the best cards.

[Numbers Nerd]

The ante was $1 per person. Nine players. Maximum bet was $3, with maximum three raises per round. Most hands had somebody bet $1 in the first round, with everybody calling, and perhaps one person raising another $1. Often, 5-6 people stayed until the penultimate card, with 2-3 people in the showdown for a $40-$60 pot. The $1 bets were apparently just to build the pot (and get me out!).

I was way too conservative, only calling the $1 1/3 of the time, and betting/raising $3 when I actually had a good hand. In hindsight, with an $18 pot, paying $1 additional to see the flop should be nearly automatic, but I was trying to play "by the book".

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Can anyone tell me the betting rules for Texas Hold'em?
My Hoyle Casino PC game has a blind ante and a blind raise, but I'd rather see a full ante as NN describes.
The PC game also has a fixed low bet and raise, before the fourth card (river?), then a fixed high bet and raise after.

Is that the betting rule?

[Darth Tater]

First three cards are the flop. Next (forth card) is the turn. Last card is the river -- anyone hre seen "Rounders"? Great flix!

[MNBridge]

Dr. T Non-Fan: Looks like Hoyle has it right, but I've never heard the blinds referred to as blind ante and raise. Basically they are forced bets.

Structured Limit Hold'em.
When you bet your bet is a set amount depending on the round.

Generally a 2 or 3 chip game

OK let's say yopu are playing 15/30 hold'em ($5 chips) 3 chip game

Small Blind $10 (2 chips)
Big Blind $15 (3 chips)

Betting on first two rounds (pre-flop and flop) $15 3 chips

Betting on last two rounds (turn and river) $30 6 chips.


Ok onto 10/20 hold em (2 chip game)

Small blind $5 (1 chip)
Big Blind $10 (2 chips)

Pre-flop and Flop $10
Turn and River $20


Hope that helps if not ask and I'll try to explain further.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MNPoker on 2002-02-01 11:14 ]</font>

[Dr T Non-Fan]

OK, so players ante in an uneven fashion over time, but in long-term, everyone pays the same amount.
Q: Should you change your betting strategy when you ante versus not ante?

[thing]

Q: Should you change your betting strategy when you ante versus not ante?


Yes. The further back from where betting begins, the more information you have by the time the bet reaches you. Early position is good for bluffing. Later position isn't -- unless everyone before you merely called.

Caveat: my experience with that ante structure is limited to Yahoo Hold'em, where many people tend to be very irrational in their betting, what with it being only imaginary money.

[MNBridge]

The difference between a blind and an ante is that the blind counts as a bet.

So say you are sitting to the left of the big blind. On the first round you are the first to act.
The big blind has already put in 2 chips and the small blind 1 chip.

You have three options:
Call -- Put in an amount = to the big blind
Raise -- Twice as much as the big blind
Fold

Now if you are the Big Blind and no one raises you are automatically in and do not have to add more money to stay.

The Big Blind will ALWAYS equal the first bet in a structured game.

In an ante game the general rule is the higher the ante the more hands you need to play.

[Castle7]

:bump:
For no reason, bringing back the oldest Poker thread I could find - although I admit I didn't look very long either.

[fallout]

This is the first every poker thread?

[Judge Dredd]

This is the first every poker thread?
this is my new thread to post count pad.

[fallout]

Excellent.

Shall we discuss poker?

[fallout]

Did "You", "Chip Runner" and "Pocket Aces" become someone we know, or did they fade away?