Aw geez, now Obama is telling college kids they can't have internships

[Baron Von Raschke]

Hey college kids, want to get some experience to make you more employable? Sorry - the president says you aren't allowed. :viola:

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/labor-243382-employers-interns.html

The U.S. Labor Department announced it will investigate unpaid internships at private-sector companies to clamp down on firms violating wage laws.

It's easy to view the action as the inevitable mischief of Democrats, irritating but not fatal. Such an attitude, however, overlooks what a blow this policy can represent to young people trying to establish careers.

Back in our parents' or grandparents' days, interns were mostly thought of as physicians-in-training. Eventually, an internship came to mean an initial training experience, perhaps unpaid, for people on the cusp of entering the workforce. This stepping stone to a hoped-for paid job became commonplace in many industries and a rite of passage for the college set.

These temporary positions became popular partly due to prosperity. During the past half century, many college students enjoyed the luxury of trying out different fields whereas previous generations had to make career choices quickly.

Unpaid internships also became more prevalent as the burdens on U.S. employers accumulated. Those burdens start with payroll taxes, which have increased to levels never anticipated by the authors of Social Security or Medicare. Then add mandates such as the new health care taxes, which Barack Obama recently described as a "moral imperative."

....

Since doing so is expensive, employers will tend to seek the most productive workers for those pricey jobs. Who's most like to lose out? Young or minority workers, who often lack the training or experience to make them productive.

President Obama and his team cannot be totally unaware of the future employment opportunities – white collar or blue collar – that they are stifling. Our leaders make it clear that they see their job is to lead the nation in sacrificing economic growth in the name of that "moral imperative" the president mentioned.

When it comes to applying that rule to youth employment, the administration can pat itself on the back: another job well done.

[Brad Gile]

At this point, is anyone surprised? :roll:

[NoName]

Of course you can still have internships - as long as they are at nonprofits such as the President's "Organizing for America" outfit. In the view of the administration, it is only internships at for-profits that are exploitative.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/apr/10/obama-interns-me-not-thee/

[Jack]

I think it's referring to unpaid internships. My last company paid interns close to $20/hr and we viewed that as a cheap way of getting lots of grunt work done.

[SamTheEagle]

Dude, Bill's been out of office for over 9 years now. Let it go, people.

[asymp_normal]

Working for free is anti-capitalist and un-American (volunteering for a non-profit is a separate category). Glad to see Obama restoring us to some good old-fashioned virtues like an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

On a related note, how many of you don't pay your interns?

[Baron Von Raschke]

Working for free is anti-capitalist and un-American (volunteering for a non-profit is a separate category). Glad to see Obama restoring us to some good old-fashioned virtues like an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

On a related note, how many of you don't pay your interns?

Working for free when it will likely make you more money in the future is actually very capitalist.

Many interns initially have negative to zero marginal value to the company when you include time to train them.

[SamTheEagle]

Working for free when it will likely make you more money in the future is actually very capitalist.

Many interns initially have negative to zero marginal value to the company when you include time to train them.

That's like saying many computer systems initially ahve negative marginal value to a company when you include the time and resources to initially set them up.

[No Fat Chicks]

I think it's referring to unpaid internships.What makes you think that? Is it the several times the article said "unpaid internships"?

[SirVLCIV]

I think it's referring to unpaid internships. My last company paid interns close to $20/hr and we viewed that as a cheap way of getting lots of grunt work done.

Yup. I made between $17 and $30 an hour in my 2.5 years of interning.

[The President]

Many interns initially have negative to zero marginal value to the company when you include time to train them.
You are hiring the wrong people as interns, or not using them effectively. I think the last intern in our department was more useful than some FSAs I have worked with around the company. Well, maybe not day 1, but by the end of the first week he was.

But perhaps that says more about some of the others than it does the intern.

[Baron Von Raschke]

You are hiring the wrong people as interns, or not using them effectively. I think the last intern in our department was more useful than some FSAs I have worked with around the company. Well, maybe not day 1, but by the end of the first week he was.

But perhaps that says more about some of the others than it does the intern.

Not all interns are actuarial interns.

[Baron Von Raschke]

That's like saying many computer systems initially ahve negative marginal value to a company when you include the time and resources to initially set them up.

Computer systems tend to be used for years. Summer interns may be around for a few months.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

Hey college kids, want to get some experience to make you more employable? Sorry - the president says you aren't allowed. :viola:
The college kids whose families can't afford to support them during the summer break or post-graduation when they're not working have to wait tables or do some other low-wage job unrelated to their major to put food on the table, so they can't take unpaid internships anyway.

Enforcing the ban on unpaid internships at for-profits means the affluent college kids will have to compete with the poorer kids for those internships. Oh my gosh :yikes:, more competition. How horrible.

[Jack]

If you object change the law but it should not be upsetting that the Justice Dept. would enforce labor laws.

[Tim><]

That's like saying many computer systems initially ahve negative marginal value to a company when you include the time and resources to initially set them up.No it isn't. Unless once you're done setting up your computer, it returns to school for a year and then is free to apply for other jobs.

[Tim><]

The college kids whose families can't afford to support them during the summer break or post-graduation when they're not working have to wait tables or do some other low-wage job unrelated to their major to put food on the table, so they can't take unpaid internships anyway.

Enforcing the ban on unpaid internships at for-profits means the affluent college kids will have to compete with the poorer kids for those internships. Oh my gosh :yikes:, more competition. How horrible.Maybe. Maybe not. Those same affluent kids are more likely to get the better paid internships through connections. In fact, they're less likely to need internships altogether. Meanwhile, many of those poorer kids are getting free rides anyway. The only sure thing about this measure is that there will be fewer internships - which will make it harder for these students to get good jobs when they graduate.

[Baron Von Raschke]

The college kids whose families can't afford to support them during the summer break or post-graduation when they're not working have to wait tables or do some other low-wage job unrelated to their major to put food on the table, so they can't take unpaid internships anyway.

Enforcing the ban on unpaid internships at for-profits means the affluent college kids will have to compete with the poorer kids for those internships. Oh my gosh :yikes:, more competition. How horrible.

So it's better for nobody to get the experience?

You sound like a hater.

[Tim><]

You are hiring the wrong people as interns, or not using them effectively. I think the last intern in our department was more useful than some FSAs I have worked with around the company. Well, maybe not day 1, but by the end of the first week he was.

But perhaps that says more about some of the others than it does the intern.The only place I worked at with an internship program was a major consulting firm. This was certainly not true there. While those happened to be paid interns, the real cost was rent, equipment and training. We billed them out at $25 / hour which was about 1/6 of an entry level position - I think this was calculated to be about the cost of keeping them on (bearing in mind that most of their time was not billable.) I don't think they offered any positive ROI during the internship. Most of their work during the internship stage was of marginal value (with a few exceptions, of course), but the candidates were top tier talent. The hope was that many would return as full time workers upon graduation - I think this was the primary goal of the program.

[SamTheEagle]

No it isn't. Unless once you're done setting up your computer, it returns to school for a year and then is free to apply for other jobs.

And you hire someone else's interns. So it's an industry-wide investment in the future of the industry.

And sometimes new computer systems don't work out and need to be scrapped for something else.

[Tim><]

And you hire someone else's interns. So it's an industry-wide investment in the future of the industry.

And sometimes new computer systems don't work out and need to be scrapped for something else.
That's ridiculous. Your reasoning provides no incentive for an individual company to offer an internship.

Between you and me, I think you realize your analogy is failing.

[independent]

If you object change the law but it should not be upsetting that the Justice Dept. would enforce labor laws.

Exactly. As long as we have minimum wage laws, unpaid internships are likely to be illegal.

The Department of Labor has had some pretty strict criteria for a long time. Here's one school's explanation: http://web.pacific.edu/x14113.xml I'm sure that it's possible to write more liberal rules.

It's okay to say we should change the law. It's not okay to say the DOL should simply ignore it.

[SamTheEagle]

That's ridiculous. Your reasoning provides no incentive for an individual company to offer an internship.

Some companies don't. I think each company that does hopes that they retain their interns (or at least the ones that were worth something).

[SamTheEagle]

Between you and me, I think you realize your analogy is failing.

Yeah, I'm thinking about letting some other poster pick it up, but I've already invested so much into it.

[Tim><]

Some companies don't. I think each company that does hopes that they retain their interns (or at least the ones that were worth something).
I agree. In some industries, that is worth enough to pay interns. In others, it's not. As with minimum wage, raising it will reduce the number of internships. Unlike with minimum wage jobs, internships are an investment and not a career.

[SamTheEagle]

I agree. In some industries, that is worth enough to pay interns. In others, it's not. As with minimum wage, raising it will reduce the number of internships. Unlike with minimum wage jobs, internships are an investment and not a career.

Oh, I'm not arguing that interns should necessarily have to be paid, if that's what you think I was doing.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

For a company that is bad-ass enough to attract interns that would work for free, having to pay the interns minimum wage will be a negligible expense, IMO

[SamTheEagle]

For a company that is bad-ass enough to attract interns that would work for free, having to pay the interns minimum wage will be a negligible expense, IMO

I think it just varies by industry. As far as I am aware, newspaper interns, for example, work for free, and most newspapers aren't exactly profit powerhouses.

It doesn't help that our colleges pump out more liberal arts types majors than anyone knows what to do with.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

Maybe. Maybe not. Those same affluent kids are more likely to get the better paid internships through connections. In fact, they're less likely to need internships altogether.
I don't mean Donald Trump's kids and the like. Perhaps "solidly middle-class" would have been a better choice of words than "affluent". Basically, those who can afford to support a no-income working college kid during the summer break or for some months post-graduation (which is more difficult than supporting a non-working college kid who doesn't have the clothing/transportation/etc. expenses of a job and can do things to lower other expenses like babysitting younger siblings instead of putting them in day care or summer camp).

Meanwhile, many of those poorer kids are getting free rides anyway.
Not during the summer when they're not taking classes, nor post-graduation.

The only sure thing about this measure is that there will be fewer internships - which will make it harder for these students to get good jobs when they graduate.
Fewer internships overall, but more available to those who can't work unpaid, and a few more actual entry-level jobs (i.e. if they have to pay anyway, some will just outright hire a full-time junior person instead of paying two interns to do the same work).

[FormLetter]

This legislation increases the costs for providing some internships. That means marginal cost will increase in some cases.

So some internships will become economically unviable, and hence there will be fewer internships.

It isn't complicated.

What is the motivation for this anyway? Is there some great evil that needs to be beaten down?

[Incredible Hulctuary]

What is the motivation for this anyway? Is there some great evil that needs to be beaten down?
See my posts above. And this is also about enforcing existing laws.

Of course, what I wrote doesn't agree with capitalism, socialism, or any other -ism. But as usual, I say screw -isms.

[JUICE]

What is the motivation for this anyway? Is there some great evil that needs to be beaten down?

The privileged class is trying to leverage their privilege into forcing poor kids out of internships. These clowns actually think that their privileged status entitles them to the privilege of an unpaid internship. Obama, being the people's populist, is just sticking up for the little guy... er the poor one. Something like that.

[GuineaPig]

Not all interns are actuarial interns.this.


Companies are not in business for charity. There is no way something like this will not reduce the number of internships available to college kids.

Clearly, to some an unpaid internship is work more for the experience than a paid job down at the banana stand.

[GuineaPig]

Fewer internships overall, but more available to those who can't work unpaid, and a few more actual entry-level jobs (i.e. if they have to pay anyway, some will just outright hire a full-time junior person instead of paying two interns to do the same work).
eh.. have you ever talked to some nonactuarial candidates about their interning experience. Typically they maybe have 1 "real" project and the rest of the time is alot of hurry up and wait. I'm guessing there will not be as many new entry level openings as you would like to think. Even if there are, the functionality of internships is still lost.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

eh.. have you ever talked to some nonactuarial candidates about their interning experience. Typically they maybe have 1 "real" project and the rest of the time is alot of hurry up and wait. I'm guessing there will not be as many new entry level openings as you would like to think.
So you're saying a large percentage of internships don't really involve much of anything that could be called useful experience. If that's the case, that makes it better overall if internships like that are eliminated because of the companies having to pay for them. Do-nothing internships like that distort the job market by making less competent candidates with an internship look better than they really are.

[FormLetter]

See my posts above. And this is also about enforcing existing laws.

Of course, what I wrote doesn't agree with capitalism, socialism, or any other -ism. But as usual, I say screw -isms.

IH is the AO's official nonismist, making him a supporter of nonismism.

:shake:

[FormLetter]

So you're saying a large percentage of internships don't really involve much of anything that could be called useful experience. If that's the case, that makes it better overall if internships like that are eliminated because of the companies having to pay for them. Do-nothing internships like that distort the job market by making less competent candidates with an internship look better than they really are.

And everybody involved is free to make their own determination and choose their own course of action.

If I interview an entry-level candidate, you can bet I am asking them about their internship experience in the interest of figuring out if they learned something that makes them valuable to me.

[GuineaPig]

So you're saying a large percentage of internships don't really involve much of anything that could be called useful experience. If that's the case, that makes it better overall if internships like that are eliminated because of the companies having to pay for them. Do-nothing internships like that distort the job market by making less competent candidates with an internship look better than they really are.still helps the resumes and shows a willingness on behalf of the intern, etc.

[Loner]

So you're saying a large percentage of internships don't really involve much of anything that could be called useful experience. If that's the case, that makes it better overall if internships like that are eliminated because of the companies having to pay for them. Do-nothing internships like that distort the job market by making less competent candidates with an internship look better than they really are.

Kind of like the way we expect kids to spend $50,000 and 4 years to prove they're "qualified" for a $30k job they could have done right out of high school.

[GuineaPig]

IH is the AO's official nonismist, making him a supporter of nonismism.

:shake:

to be against isms would suggest you are pretty middle of the road - I don't find IH to be anywhere near the middle.

[Travis]

I think the nature of internships is just too broad for this to have a net positive effect. I would expect that most internships in big businesses, paid or unpaid, are valuable to both parties, and I see no reason for them to be subject to more regulation.

However, I would expect internships in the entertainment industry to generally be highly exploitative (and no, I don't mean "casting couch" exploitative, just getting a lot of grunt labor out of someone in the hopes that they'll make connections). I think it would be very difficult to make any sweeping changes here that wouldn't be detrimental to non-exploitative internships. I also think it would be a waste of my tax dollars to spend resources investigating these internships.

[GuineaPig]

I think the nature of internships is just too broad for this to have a net positive effect. I would expect that most internships in big businesses, paid or unpaid, are valuable to both parties, and I see no reason for them to be subject to more regulation.

However, I would expect internships in the entertainment industry to generally be highly exploitative (and no, I don't mean "casting couch" exploitative, just getting a lot of grunt labor out of someone in the hopes that they'll make connections). I think it would be very difficult to make any sweeping changes here that wouldn't be detrimental to non-exploitative internships. I also think it would be a waste of my tax dollars to spend resources investigating these internships.

:iatp:

[Incredible Hulctuary]

And everybody involved is free to make their own determination and choose their own course of action.

If I interview an entry-level candidate, you can bet I am asking them about their internship experience in the interest of figuring out if they learned something that makes them valuable to me.
But they got the interview over the guy who worked the summer in a 7-11, so even if you conclude the internship was worthless they at least got the opportunity to tell you something else about them that makes them valuable, while the 7-11 guy didn't get that chance. Or they use their creativity to spin the internship into looking like something more than it really was.

[Wasp]

Dude, Bill's been out of office for over 9 years now. Let it go, people.

I think Bill paid his interns in cigar currency. You know those cubans are expensive.

[Wasp]

Anyway, does this really matter. For-profit organizations will soon be like dinosaurs. Extinct. In the peoples republic of Obama we will all work for non-profits or the government (or other deficit generating organizations).

[Bob Cobb]

I think it would be very difficult to make any sweeping changes here that wouldn't be detrimental to non-exploitative internships.

A personal example: There are quite a few folks, myself included, pursuing internships during the summer preceding the start of business school. This group is mostly comprised of career changers looking for experience in a new area that can be leveraged come recruiting season at school. As someone who is looking to break into the catch-22 private equity industry (you can't work in private equity unless you've worked in it before), I am willing to get virtually any experience possible, paid or unpaid. It could be crucial to future employment in the industry, and with a PE market that is trying to regain its footing, most employers would probably go the unpaid route if possible, especially for someone with no prior experience.

[Standtall]

Call your office a college and charge the interns to work there, umm I mean learn there.

In my office the paid interns do crappy menial work because we need positive productivity, the unpaid get to learn and how much they produce is not important.

[vito]

But they got the interview over the guy who worked the summer in a 7-11
After being involved in the hiring process for 20+ years, I can say that, with all else being equal, the guy with the internship would NOT have an advantage over the guy working at 7-11.

I worked at a grocery store and had a paid internship at an insurance company to pay for my schooling. The business skills and work ethic I developed at the store were much more valuable than the menial data entry time at the insurance company.

[ditkaworshipper]

eh.. have you ever talked to some nonactuarial candidates about their interning experience. Typically they maybe have 1 "real" project and the rest of the time is alot of hurry up and wait. I'm guessing there will not be as many new entry level openings as you would like to think. Even if there are, the functionality of internships is still lost.
IFYP to my experience. My nonactuarial internships were more work.
So you're saying a large percentage of internships don't really involve much of anything that could be called useful experience. If that's the case, that makes it better overall if internships like that are eliminated because of the companies having to pay for them. Do-nothing internships like that distort the job market by making less competent candidates with an internship look better than they really are.
Not exactly. The ability to see how a department functions in an office is huge. The ability to hurry up and wait is a skill actually.
But they got the interview over the guy who worked the summer in a 7-11, so even if you conclude the internship was worthless they at least got the opportunity to tell you something else about them that makes them valuable, while the 7-11 guy didn't get that chance. Or they use their creativity to spin the internship into looking like something more than it really was.
7-11 guy could have taken that chance, but didn't. That's the important thing to note here.

You have two types of interns. The first is the grunt work intern that will actually be productive for you. The second is the future talent. Think of it like the MLB draft. You pick interns to come into your company and at the end of the summer they decide whether or not they want to pick up a contract with you. If they don't, they will be in the free market again. In any case, not being paid in the first is worse than the second.

The administration is hoping people will take the view of the first type of internship only. What really kills me is not that it doesn't fix the system, but that the nonprofits and government will have a huge advantage for giving "internship" position titles to exploit the college slave labor this law/bill/whatever would be trying to "stop."

[Incredible Hulctuary]

After being involved in the hiring process for 20+ years, I can say that, with all else being equal, the guy with the internship would NOT have an advantage over the guy working at 7-11.
That's if he actually gets into your office for an interview. The problem is that he often won't put his 7-11 job on his resume, and even if he did HR would toss his before tossing an otherwise equal resume with an industry-related internship.

[FormLetter]

I am pretty sure that at least one of our underwriters had a coffee shop as their immediately prior job. Comforting, yes.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

7-11 guy could have taken that chance, but didn't. That's the important thing to note here.
Could have taken the chance how? Who was going to take care of his expenses if he's working an unpaid internship?

[Baron Von Raschke]

So are there any other things the government can do to make sure the middle class and higher don't get any unfair advantages at their own expense? Maybe ban all SAT prep classes?

[vito]

That's if he actually gets into your office for an interview. The problem is that he often won't put his 7-11 job on his resume, and even if he did HR would toss his before tossing an otherwise equal resume with an industry-related internship.
If that's the case at your company, then your HR department is living in the past.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

If that's the case at your company, then your HR department is living in the past.
HR departments all across the country are living in the past, future, or on another planet. That's why they post job ads requiring 5 years experience administering Windows 7.

[T-roy Boy]

So now my company will charge a "class fee to get credit" to take a course on an every day life in my corporate world. Cool, a new income stream.

[Sredni Vashtar]

That's if he actually gets into your office for an interview. The problem is that he often won't put his 7-11 job on his resume, and even if he did HR would toss his before tossing an otherwise equal resume with an industry-related internship.My last app at allstate just used "analytical internship" as a screening question. Never mind my 7-11 jobs, they could conceivably toss out my resume without ever considering my actual work experience.

In general, I agree with hulk, internships are about getting an edge. No reason that edge should be correlated to having money for rent. If free internships are really that useful they could be subsidized, and then anyone could do them without the 7-11 salary opportunity cost, but it doesn't sound like anyone thinks they are.

[tenthring]

I doubt that many of us pay out interns nothing. Many of our interns are working hard doing data entry and spreadsheet monkeying. Its really an issue in the humanities jobs with the worthless interns.