The Afterlife

[MountainGirl]

So what happens when you die, after you die?

yes, there probably has been a thread to discuss this before, but I'm starting a new one.

[Len Myers]

Life is eternal,
love is immortal and
death is only a horizon -- Carly

[Louis Rich]

You follow the light.

[Hugh Jass]

nothingness

[Louis Rich]

Maggots eat your body.

[MountainGirl]

You follow the light.

but where does it go?

[bloodninja]

nothingness

Your going to hell, I'm gonna bask in His Glory and sing hymns about His Righteous Love for all of eternity.

[hiho]

nothingness

:iatp:

[Louis Rich]

but where does it go?
To the end of a tunnel.

[MountainGirl]

so do all the non-believers go straight to hell? is that how it works? (really, i'm not up on the christian belief system)

[MountainGirl]

i wish i had made a poll.

[bloodninja]

I will enter His Eternal Kingdom, and sit at the table with the Lamb. For he is righteous.

Thus saith the LORD, In the place where dogs licked the blood of Naboth shall dogs lick thy blood, even thine.--1 Kings 21:19

[Hugh Jass]

start a new thread with a poll. It's not like there's limited spots for threads.

[bloodninja]

so do all the non-believers go straight to hell? is that how it works? (really, i'm not up on the christian belief system)

Yes my child, for His Justice is without end.

Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.--2 Chronicles 15:13

[Hugh Jass]

so do all the non-believers go straight to hell? is that how it works? (really, i'm not up on the christian belief system)
I think if you've ever heard of Christ in your life, but do not accept, yes you go to hell. If you lived in some remote village and never heard of Christ, but led a good life you go to purgatory. Hell otherwise.

[Guilty Bystander]

I don't know and no one else does either. Except for the maggot part if your corpse isn't creamated and the casket doesn't have an airtight seal.

[bloodninja]

I don't know and no one else does either. Except for the maggot part if your corpse isn't creamated and the casket doesn't have an airtight seal.

I will behold the Glory of the LORD.

14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

[vividox]

Sheep go to heaven.

Goats go to hell.

[The Drunken Actuary]

so do all the non-believers go straight to hell? is that how it works? (really, i'm not up on the christian belief system)

Then you should have started a thread about the christian belief system.

[bloodninja]

so do all the non-believers go straight to hell? is that how it works? (really, i'm not up on the christian belief system)

I hope your grapes aren't ripe!

Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

[The Drunken Actuary]

i wish i had made a poll.

Um, you can add a poll to this thread. Go to thread tools. I bet you can figure it out from there.

[MountainGirl]

Sheep go to heaven.

Goats go to hell.

m

[MountainGirl]

start a new thread with a poll. It's not like there's limited spots for threads.

you underestimate my laziness

[FormLetter]

start a new thread with a poll. It's not like there's limited spots for threads.

Wouldn't that be some shit?

Thread starts would have to be rationed.

[The Drunken Actuary]

you underestimate my laziness

Seriously, you don't need to start a new thread. Add a poll to this one. You know you want to.

[MountainGirl]

Then you should have started a thread about the christian belief system.

yeah i don't really care what all those whackos think.... j/k

[General Apathy]

After a somewhat mysterious sequence of events, an oceanic flight from Sydney to LA crashes on what appears to be a deserted island. The chance of being found and rescued is fairly small, so the survivors have to cope with a set of challenges. They have to learn to survive on the island, a mysterious place with enough dangers on its own. Also, they have to learn to live with each other if any success is to be expected. And finally, they have to live with themselves and their pasts. Interwoven with the events on the islands are flashbacks to the pasts of 14 main characters. Step by step, we learn a little more about their diverse and unexpected pasts as the group's quest to survive takes shape

[Chronus]

I think if you've ever heard of Christ in your life, but do not accept, yes you go to hell. If you lived in some remote village and never heard of Christ, but led a good life you go to purgatory. Hell otherwise.

If it exists we'll have to throw a party in hell together. We know there will be plenty of immoral, loose women there to join us.

[vividox]

I had no idea you could make a poll after the thread was made. Huh. I guess I learn something new every day.

[GuineaPig]

I assume when I die I hang out with mountain girl for a few millennia :shrug:

[General Apathy]

I had no idea you could make a poll after the thread was made. Huh. I guess I learn something new every day.

kind of like an afterlife...

[magillaG]

Do maggots get you if you are 6 feet underground? I guess they would burrow down to your body, then tunnel back up to become flies? Or do other sorts of worms get you?

As to what happens to "you"- I think its important to specify what is meant by "you". The evidence is that the personal, subjective experience that has been you- the thoughts, feelings, relationships, etc, you have experienced for most of your life- seems very likely to end. However, information may never be lost, which would mean everything about you would be encoded in the universe forever, just in a way human beings cannot recognize. Of course, we can always hope for more.

[MountainGirl]

so what if you believe in god, but don't accept christ per se, or christian beliefs, are you still going to hell?

[vividox]

kind of like an afterlife...

That's a good analogy.

No, I take it back.

That's a great analogy.

[MountainGirl]

Do maggots get you if you are 6 feet underground? I guess they would burrow down to your body, then tunnel back up to become flies? Or do other sorts of worms get you?

As to what happens to "you"- I think its important to specify what is meant by "you". The evidence is that the personal, subjective experience that has been you- the thoughts, feelings, relationships, etc, you have experienced for most of your life- seems very likely to end. However, information may never be lost, which would mean everything about you would be encoded in the universe forever, just in a way human beings cannot recognize. Of course, we can always hope for more.

"you" = your "soul" i guess??

no way to know for sure what happens.

[GuineaPig]

so what if you believe in god, but don't accept christ per se, or christian beliefs, are you still going to hell?

Depends - are you jewish? do you believe in the concept of pluralism? Or are you a universalist? do you believe in buddha or some other diety? I like my hanging with mountian girl and other AOers version of the afterlife - much less confusing.

[Hugh Jass]

I had no idea you could make a poll after the thread was made. Huh. I guess I learn something new every day.
me neither. Could've swore I tried this before and found out you can't. Maybe it depends on what subforum you're in.

[MountainGirl]

Depends - are you jewish? do you believe in the concept of pluralism? Or are you a universalist? do you believe in buddha or some other diety? I like my hanging with mountian girl and other AOers version of the afterlife - much less confusing.

none of the above, or at least, i try not to label it.

definitely believe there is more going on than we see. definitely think there is consciousness after death. what happens and what is out there, i don't know.

i also think there is a part of god inside everyone (and everything) that you can tap into whenever you want.

[General Apathy]

Dearly beloved
We are gathered here today
2 get through this thing called life

Electric word life
It means forever and that's a mighty long time
But I'm here 2 tell u
There's something else
The afterworld

A world of never ending happiness
U can always see the sun, day or night

So when u call up that shrink in Beverly Hills
U know the one - Dr Everything'll Be Alright
Instead of asking him how much of your time is left
Ask him how much of your mind, baby

'Cuz in this life
Things are much harder than in the afterworld
In this life
You're on your own

And if de-elevator tries 2 bring u down
Go crazy - punch a higher floor

[Hugh Jass]

none of the above, or at least, i try not to label it.

definitely believe there is more going on than we see. definitely think there is consciousness after death. what happens and what is out there, i don't know.

i also think there is a part of god inside everyone (and everything) that you can tap into whenever you want.

why do you think this? What evidence do you have that you could demonstrate to me (or anyone else) to support this idea? Or do you just want to believe that?

[GuineaPig]

none of the above, or at least, i try not to label it.

definitely believe there is more going on than we see. definitely think there is consciousness after death. what happens and what is out there, i don't know.

i also think there is a part of god inside everyone (and everything) that you can tap into whenever you want.

pantheism? :D

[MountainGirl]

is that what it's called?

[Danjew]

so do all the non-believers go straight to hell? is that how it works? (really, i'm not up on the christian belief system)

Nope. Eventually we all end up in the same place. United with G-d. Then after that we eventually come back to earth, perfected in complete harmony, peace and truth. This is due to all of the good things you and others did in their life. Congrats.

135. Failure
Adam trudged past the gates of Eden, his head low, his feet heavy with remorse and pain.

Then he stopped, spun around and exclaimed, "Wait a minute! You had this all planned! You put that fruit there knowing I would eat from it! This is all a plot!"

There was no reply.

Without failure, Man can never truly reach into the depths of his soul. Only once he has failed, can he return and reach higher and higher without end. Beyond Eden.

-From the wisdom of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of righteous memory

[GuineaPig]

is that what it's called?

I think pantheism is that God exists in all forms of nature, so something close to it... wikipedia might be able to explain better than I :lol:

[Hugh Jass]

none of the above, or at least, i try not to label it.

definitely believe there is more going on than we see. definitely think there is consciousness after death. what happens and what is out there, i don't know.

i also think there is a part of god inside everyone (and everything) that you can tap into whenever you want.

sigline, right there

when you gonna let me tap that? whenever I want? sweet :razz:

[MountainGirl]

well, i'll be damned.

Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical,[1] or that the Universe (including Nature on Earth) is the only thing deserving the deepest kind of reverence. The word derives from the Ancient Greek: πᾶν (pan) meaning "All" and θεός (theos) meaning "God" - literally "All is God". As such Pantheism promotes the idea that "God" is better understood as a way of relating to nature and the Universe as a whole - all that was, is and shall be - rather than as a transcendent, mental, personal or creator entity.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god. Although there are divergences within Pantheism, the central ideas found in almost all versions are the Cosmos as an all-encompassing unity and the "sacredness" of Nature.

actually i do believe there could be a creator, personal, and/or anthropomorphic god, and that i don't know. maybe i haven't tapped into that wisdom yet.

[Anitha Desai]

Depends - are you jewish? do you believe in the concept of pluralism? Or are you a universalist? do you believe in buddha or some other diety? I like my hanging with mountian girl and other AOers version of the afterlife - much less confusing.

Buddha is not a diety. Buddhism at its core does not "worship" any Gods AFAIK.
As for afterlife, I'm beginning to believe that there is none. Your body beomes one with nature. You do live on, through memories you have created for other people, through lives you have touched and influenced. Every person has necessarily influenced the course of humankind's history and will live on forever, no matter how small their contribution may seem.

[MountainGirl]

sigline, right there

when you gonna let me tap that? whenever I want? sweet :razz:

you just made me :lol:

[Kool-Aid Man]

I plan to live long enough to make it to the technological breakthrough that will allow a computer to perfectly emulate a human brain and an interface that allows one to upload one's consciousness and become mechanically immortal.

[Hugh Jass]

I plan to live long enough to make it to the technological breakthrough that will allow a computer to perfectly emulate a human brain and an interface that allows one to upload one's consciousness and become mechanically immortal.

like how IG-88 became the death star? :geek:

[Levin]

Are you looking for an explanation different from anything previously suggested by philosophers, prophets, priests, authors, poets, playwrights, musicians, and painters over thousands of years to answer this deepest of all questions? Or are you trying to gauge how well those explanations are accepted among AO posters?

I don't doubt your sincerity, but it just isn't a "hey, guys, whaddya think about this?" type of question.

[MountainGirl]

Are you looking for an explanation different from anything previously suggested by philosophers, prophets, priests, authors, poets, playwrights, musicians, and painters over thousands of years to answer this deepest of all questions? Or are you trying to gauge how well those explanations are accepted among AO posters?

I don't doubt your sincerity, but it just isn't a "hey, guys, whaddya think about this?" type of question.

just something i've been thinking about. there's a lot of different beliefs out there. wanted to get a discussion going.

[Levin]

I plan to live long enough to make it to the technological breakthrough that will allow a computer to perfectly emulate a human brain and an interface that allows one to upload one's consciousness and become mechanically immortal.
That's only the first step. Then you break free from matter altogether and start making black 1x4x9 boxes so the monkeys can follow suit.

[Agadefe]

I really like this Pantheism stuff. It's similar to my own beliefs. Except not so much about nature being sacred, but more of the god is everywhere but isn't an actual being.

[CNN]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pzgVDzOEizg/Rn2p3_jw7nI/AAAAAAAAARg/Gd9q9oKh7Vk/s1600/070621_Sopranos.jpg

[Hugh Jass]

I really like this Pantheism stuff. It's similar to my own beliefs. Except not so much about nature being sacred, but more of the god is everywhere but isn't an actual being.

:iatp:

it don't really like to call it 'god' because of all the baggage associated with that.

[MountainGirl]

:iatp:

it don't really like to call it 'god' because of all the baggage associated with that.

iatp. but i will still call it god. well, sometimes i call it the universe instead, but really i mean god.

[Agadefe]

Original question:

After you die, this is what happens. You go into a dimly lit room. A being that vaguely resembles everyone you have ever known in life (except the being is clearly bald and wearing a very bad toupee) asks you 3 questions. If you get all of these questions right you go into room 1. If you get one wrong, you go into room 2. 2 wrong: room 3, and 3 wrong: room 4.

In each of these rooms a certain game is being played. You don't know the rules to this game, but it's a lot like backgammon. You could say it is backgammon. If you wanted to be truthful. Except instead of black and white pieces, each piece is a different shade of gray. Depending on which room you are in, your opponent is that much harder. So room 1, you are playing against a beginner and so forth.

If you win the game, you get reincarnated. If you lose the game, you wait 1 year in limbo (you can be a ghost or just chill out and observe the world). After 1 year, you become the "opponent" that newly dead people play against. You play weekly games until you win. Then you get reincarnated.

This is fact.

[Anitha Desai]

:iatp:

it don't really like to call it 'god' because of all the baggage associated with that.

The Adwaita philospohy stuff I've been exposed to lately lines up with this very closely. What's different about it is that it seems as if you can "realize" that you have "God", or whatever you want to call it, inside you and then going through life becomes an experience on a completely different plane. This is the part I am unable to grasp intellectually.

[Hugh Jass]

iatp. but i will still call it god. well, sometimes i call it the universe instead, but really i mean god.

the universe has not shown me any evidence that my ego/being survives death. It has shown me that my organic matter may be used to create life for other beings and that my actions have an effect on things other than myself, but I don't really "live on" through other's memories of me.

[bloodninja]

the universe has not shown me any evidence that my ego/being survives death. It has shown me that my organic matter may be used to create life for other beings and that my actions have an effect on things other than myself, but I don't really "live on" through other's memories of me.

You will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[MountainGirl]

well i have always liked campfires. will there be smores? and singalongs? sounds delightful.

[Linus]

I believe in an afterlife, but what it is, I'm not so sure. But the energy and force of life is just too strong to dissipate upon death.

About six months before my mom passed, she was in intensive care mostly due to a procedure one of her doctors botched. They called me to come in because her numbers were all over the place and they were afraid she could have a stroke, heart attack, have renal failure, etc. with little notice. She was mostly unconscious and I felt like there was some sort of presence in the room. I assumed it was my dad, who had died a few years earlier. At one point, while her numbers were going crazy still, she woke up and looked over at me and started talking to me like everything was normal. Then she looked over in the corner, smiled and looked back at me and said, "why is my mother here?". We talked for another ten seconds and she laid back down and went out again. I will always believe that her mother was there with her during that day, when she was so close to death herself. Here's the thing: I don't think she could have been hallucinating or anything like that because she never had any idea what her mother even looked like because she died when my mom was 3 and there were no pictures of her. But my mom knew it was her. When my mother recovered, I told her about it but she couldn't remember it happening. But she did ask me if she had said what her mother looked like, to which I said no. And then she made me promise that if anything like that happened again, I was to ask her what her mom looked like.

[vividox]

I believe in an afterlife, but what it is, I'm not so sure. But the energy and force of life is just too strong to dissipate upon death.

About six months before my mom passed, she was in intensive care mostly due to a procedure one of her doctors botched. They called me to come in because her numbers were all over the place and they were afraid she could have a stroke, heart attack, have renal failure, etc. with little notice. She was mostly unconscious and I felt like there was some sort of presence in the room. I assumed it was my dad, who had died a few years earlier. At one point, while her numbers were going crazy still, she woke up and looked over at me and started talking to me like everything was normal. Then she looked over in the corner, smiled and looked back at me and said, "why is my mother here?". We talked for another ten seconds and she laid back down and went out again. I will always believe that her mother was there with her during that day, when she was so close to death herself. Here's the thing: I don't think she could have been hallucinating or anything like that because she never had any idea what her mother even looked like because she died when my mom was 3 and there were no pictures of her. But my mom knew it was her. When my mother recovered, I told her about it but she couldn't remember it happening. But she did ask me if she had said what her mother looked like, to which I said no. And then she made me promise that if anything like that happened again, I was to ask her what her mom looked like.

I like this story.

[Hugh Jass]

I believe in an afterlife, but what it is, I'm not so sure. But the energy and force of life is just too strong to dissipate upon death.

About six months before my mom passed, she was in intensive care mostly due to a procedure one of her doctors botched. They called me to come in because her numbers were all over the place and they were afraid she could have a stroke, heart attack, have renal failure, etc. with little notice. She was mostly unconscious and I felt like there was some sort of presence in the room. I assumed it was my dad, who had died a few years earlier. At one point, while her numbers were going crazy still, she woke up and looked over at me and started talking to me like everything was normal. Then she looked over in the corner, smiled and looked back at me and said, "why is my mother here?". We talked for another ten seconds and she laid back down and went out again. I will always believe that her mother was there with her during that day, when she was so close to death herself. Here's the thing: I don't think she could have been hallucinating or anything like that because she never had any idea what her mother even looked like because she died when my mom was 3 and there were no pictures of her. But my mom knew it was her. When my mother recovered, I told her about it but she couldn't remember it happening. But she did ask me if she had said what her mother looked like, to which I said no. And then she made me promise that if anything like that happened again, I was to ask her what her mom looked like.

But the energy and force of life is just too strong to dissipate upon death. please explain to me how you "know" this and can show this to be true.

was your mom on drugs? My grandmother died from cancer and was hepped up on morphine and was seeing John Wayne and stuff.

[Patrick Bauer]

So what happens when you die, after you die?

yes, there probably has been a thread to discuss this before, but I'm starting a new one.


When you die.
Assuming it is not from some major trauma and all of your primary organs are intact, your heart stops pumping blood. When your heart stops pumping blood, you are unconscious, you quit breathing, all your muscles relax. You are clinically dead. You may make some noise, gasping type sounds or possibly a small intermittent muscle twitch. You can even vomit, not with any force, more like a nasty smelly flow from a slack mouth. You are clinically dead but the cells in your body are still alive. It takes a few minutes from them to shutdown and die.

If someone brings you back at this point, shocking your heart back into rhythm, you most likely won't remember a thing. This is when some people talk about seeing a white light or being aware of their surroundings as if they were floating above their body.

If no one restarts your heart. You just lay there slumped in a pile like so much raw meat. The electrical signal in your heart eventually fades away. There was a signal at first it just wasn't in a normal sinus rhythm. The cells in your major organs begin to die off. You have no blood pressure so gravity begins to pull your blood towards the lowest point as you lay. Eventually your blood will noticeably pool there inside your body like a large bruise. But lets get back to the freshly clinically dead and consider the most important aspect, the brain. Biological death, the death you don't come back from, is determined by loss of brain function. Your heart has stopped. Your brain cells are no longer receiving oxygen. Over a few minutes your brain cells start to shut down and die. (What is interesting is many of your cells do not die in a way that they can't be revived hours later. We haven't been able to come up with a way to revive those shut down brain cells yet.) As your brain cells quit functioning, you begin to lose, sometimes permanently, the ability to control/command your body as well as memory. On occasion personality traits have been lost with the loss of parts of the brain. Eventually you lose enough brain function that you are no longer alive. You are now biologically dead.

Without brain function, that chemical mix and messaging, all those electrical pulses, do you exist? We do not know. Let's say somehow that intricate web of brain cells are still completely intact. The cells are not dead, just in that shut down state. Let's say we can hold your brain (frozen?) for an indefinite amount of time. Let us also say we can revive your brain, pumping blood back in with some sort of magic drug that wakes up all those brain cells. What do we have? Is it still you? My guess:
Some of this revived body's choices and behaviors will be the same as yours but memories won't. I would guess it would have a de ja vu feeling quite often.

[Linus]

please explain to me how you "know" this and can show this to be true.

res ipsa loquitur

was your mom on drugs? My grandmother died from cancer and was hepped up on morphine and was seeing John Wayne and stuff.

Nope, nothing. She wasn't in pain. The only thing she was hooked up to was a saline drip.

[MountainGirl]

that is an interesting story Linus.

[Anitha Desai]

When you die.
Assuming it is not from some major trauma and all of your primary organs are intact, your heart stops pumping blood. When your heart stops pumping blood, you are unconscious, you quit breathing, all your muscles relax. You are clinically dead. You may make some noise, gasping type sounds or possibly a small intermittent muscle twitch. You can even vomit, not with any force, more like a nasty smelly flow from a slack mouth. You are clinically dead but the cells in your body are still alive. It takes a few minutes from them to shutdown and die.

If someone brings you back at this point, shocking your heart back into rhythm, you most likely won't remember a thing. This is when some people talk about seeing a white light or being aware of their surroundings as if they were floating above their body.

If no one restarts your heart. You just lay there slumped in a pile like so much raw meat. The electrical signal in your heart eventually fades away. There was a signal at first it just wasn't in a normal sinus rhythm. The cells in your major organs begin to die off. You have no blood pressure so gravity begins to pull your blood towards the lowest point as you lay. Eventually your blood will noticeably pool there inside your body like a large bruise. But lets get back to the freshly clinically dead and consider the most important aspect, the brain. Biological death, the death you don't come back from, is determined by loss of brain function. Your heart has stopped. Your brain cells are no longer receiving oxygen. Over a few minutes your brain cells start to shut down and die. (What is interesting is many of your cells do not die in a way that they can't be revived hours later. We haven't been able to come up with a way to revive those shut down brain cells yet.) As your brain cells quit functioning, you begin to lose, sometimes permanently, the ability to control/command your body as well as memory. On occasion personality traits have been lost with the loss of parts of the brain. Eventually you lose enough brain function that you are no longer alive. You are now biologically dead.

Without brain function, that chemical mix and messaging, all those electrical pulses, do you exist? We do not know. Let's say somehow that intricate web of brain cells are still completely intact. The cells are not dead, just in that shut down state. Let's say we can hold your brain (frozen?) for an indefinite amount of time. Let us also say we can revive your brain, pumping blood back in with some sort of magic drug that wakes up all those brain cells. What do we have? Is it still you? My guess:
Some of this revived body's choices and behaviors will be the same as yours but memories won't. I would guess it would have a de ja vu feeling quite often.

I like this one.

[Hugh Jass]

res ipsa loquitur



Nope, nothing. She wasn't in pain. The only thing she was hooked up to was a saline drip.

ok, thanks for sending me to google; "the thing speaks for itself"? Lame.

even without drugs people can enter into altered states. Not convinced she saw anything other than a figment of her own imagination. And no one else should think she saw anything supernatural, either.

[MountainGirl]

ok, thanks for sending me to google; "the thing speaks for itself"? Lame.

even without drugs people can enter into altered states. Not convinced she saw anything other than a figment of her own imagination. And no one else should think she saw anything supernatural, either.

why not? is it not up to each person to pick their own beliefs?

lots of people have those experiences HJ

[Hugh Jass]

why not? is it not up to each person to pick their own beliefs?

lots of people have those experiences HJ

:lol:

that's my belief that no one else should believe that stuff.

I know lots of people have those beliefs/experiences. Sometimes there are scientific explanations and sometimes there aren't. But I don't think its smart or a "good thing" to jump to supernatural conclusions regarding them. I think religious thought/superstition is bad.

[Linus]

ok, thanks for sending me to google; "the thing speaks for itself"? Lame.

My response was probably borderline obnoxious, but here's a question for you: have you ever been in the presence of somebody as they passed? If so, did you experience anything other than sadness?

even without drugs people can enter into altered states. Not convinced she saw anything other than a figment of her own imagination. And no one else should think she saw anything supernatural, either.

OK, so first you tried to imply what she saw was from drugs. And when that wasn't the answer, it was her own imagination. In your own words, "lame".

I wasn't trying to convince you or anybody else of anything, just relating my own experience. And I'll believe what I choose to believe, tyvm.

[The Drunken Actuary]

so what if you believe in god, but don't accept christ per se, or christian beliefs, are you still going to hell?

No, because there is no hell. QED.

[The Drunken Actuary]

"you" = your "soul" i guess??

no way to know for sure what happens.

There is no such thing as a soul either.

[MountainGirl]

:lol:

that's my belief that no one else should believe that stuff.

I know lots of people have those beliefs/experiences. Sometimes there are scientific explanations and sometimes there aren't. But I don't think its smart or a "good thing" to jump to supernatural conclusions regarding them. I think religious thought/superstition is bad.

your statement was one big judgment about how other people should believe what you believe and now you say that is your belief. i get it. your approach is annoying.

why is religious thought/superstition "bad"

[Hugh Jass]

My response was probably borderline obnoxious, but here's a question for you: have you ever been in the presence of somebody as they passed? If so, did you experience anything other than sadness?



OK, so first you tried to imply what she saw was from drugs. And when that wasn't the answer, it was her own imagination. In your own words, "lame".

I wasn't trying to convince you or anybody else of anything, just relating my own experience. And I'll believe what I choose to believe, tyvm.

have you ever been in the presence of somebody as they passed:aypi:

OK, so first you tried to imply what she saw was from drugs. And when that wasn't the answer, it was her own imagination. In your own words, "lame". so I only get one shot at explaining it? That's lame. I saw you trying this tactic a mile away. "ooh, the non-believer guessed wrong. LETS USE THAT TO DISCREDIT THEIR ARGUMENTS!!!


wasn't trying to convince you or anybody else of anything, just relating my own experience. And I'll believe what I choose to believe, tyvm:duh: sorry for asking you to think critically about your religious beliefs and to explain them clearly.

[Hugh Jass]

your statement was one big judgment about how other people should believe what you believe and now you say that is your belief. i get it. your approach is annoying.

why is religious thought/superstition "bad"

obviously I feel that everyone should believe as I believe. sorry, I'm not trying to be annoying. Don't think I came across that way.

believing in the supernatural is backwards and weak, imo

[MountainGirl]

i am kinda surprised at how judgmental you are about this, HJ, and a bit defensive/argumentative as well.

[MountainGirl]

:aypi:

so I only get one shot at explaining it? That's lame. I saw you trying this tactic a mile away. "ooh, the non-believer guessed wrong. LETS USE THAT TO DISCREDIT THEIR ARGUMENTS!!!


:duh: sorry for asking you to think critically about your religious beliefs and to explain them clearly.

all linus did was share an experience. when did he say anything about believers and non-believers etc...

[MountainGirl]

were you raised in a religious upbringing? just curious.

[ACCtuary]

Buddha is not a diety. Buddhism at its core does not "worship" any Gods AFAIK.
As for afterlife, I'm beginning to believe that there is none. Your body beomes one with nature. You do live on, through memories you have created for other people, through lives you have touched and influenced. Every person has necessarily influenced the course of humankind's history and will live on forever, no matter how small their contribution may seem.

:iatp:

[Linus]

:aypi:

Is that a "no"?

so I only get one shot at explaining it? That's lame. I saw you trying this tactic a mile away. "ooh, the non-believer guessed wrong. LETS USE THAT TO DISCREDIT THEIR ARGUMENTS!!!

I wasn't trying any "tactic". I didn't ask anybody to question, critique, believe or not believe anything I had to say. That was your doing.

:duh: sorry for asking you to think critically about your religious beliefs and to explain them clearly.

I don't really have any religious beliefs. Mostly agnostic I guess. :shrug:

[bloodninja]

:lol:

that's my belief that no one else should believe that stuff.

I know lots of people have those beliefs/experiences. Sometimes there are scientific explanations and sometimes there aren't. But I don't think its smart or a "good thing" to jump to supernatural conclusions regarding them. I think religious thought/superstition is bad.

I vaguely remember watching a show about a scientist who subjected himself to enough G's to cause him to black out, to see if he would have something similar to a "near death experience." I think he reported seeing something like the "white light" that many describe.

[Linus]

obviously I feel that everyone should believe as I believe. sorry, I'm not trying to be annoying. Don't think I came across that way.

believing in the supernatural is backwards and weak, imo

There are many atheists in the world and that's cool. Then there are the evangelical atheists. Not so cool. And just as annoying as the evangelical theists.

[ACCtuary]

I'm beginning to think there cannot be an afterlife. An eternity of awareness is impossible to contemplate. How would such an awareness be maintained? Nor do I think that fairytales about good people going to heaven and bad to hell are possibly true regardless of how self-assuring they may be.

It's all a farce and a lie. The good we do lives on after us. That is all we can do.

[ACCtuary]

There are many atheists in the world and that's cool. Then there are the evangelical atheists. Not so cool.

Why is that not cool? Should they just sit back and from their point of view permit the world to be run by self-delusion? Every person who has a point of view has the right to advocate it.

[ACCtuary]

I think the major test of a civilized religion is the nature of the provisions it makes for non-believers to live in peace.

[Hugh Jass]

Is that a "no"?
that is correct. I assume you're going to try to throw that back in my face?


I wasn't trying any "tactic". I didn't ask anybody to question, critique, believe or not believe anything I had to say. That was your doing.
no, you were claiming victory that your interpretation was > my (wrong) guess


I don't really have any religious beliefs. Mostly agnostic I guess. :shrug:

.

[Hugh Jass]

were you raised in a religious upbringing? just curious.

yes. catholic.

[Hugh Jass]

Why is that not cool? Should they just sit back and from their point of view permit the world to be run by self-delusion? Every person who has a point of view has the right to advocate it.

thank you.


FTR, I don't care if you're a believer. I like most of the posters on this forum who are believers (abused student, danjew, punmanbowler, to name a few). I really don't think I came across as annoying or anything here, just trying to challenge people to explain their beliefs. If you can't or don't want to, that's cool. Please don't think I am trying to change you, just trying to talk god on an internet chat board.

[Linus]

Why is that not cool? Should they just sit back and from their point of view permit the world to be run by self-delusion? Every person who has a point of view has the right to advocate it.

Fine. But it's exactly the same rationale as the people who show up on your porch and want to talk about Jehovah, Jesus, Buddha or FSM.

[MountainGirl]

thank you.


FTR, I don't care if you're a believer. I like most of the posters on this forum who are believers (abused student, danjew, punmanbowler, to name a few). I really don't think I came across as annoying or anything here, just trying to challenge people to explain their beliefs. If you can't or don't want to, that's cool. Please don't think I am trying to change you, just trying to talk god on an internet chat board.

this seems to contradict the statement that you think everyone should believe the same as you. (that is what annoyed me, i think. it implies you are right and everyone else is wrong.)

[Hugh Jass]

Fine. But it's exactly the same rationale as the people who show up on your porch and want to talk about Jehovah, Jesus, Buddha or FSM.

no atheist is going to show up on your door to try to convert you. This is an internet chat forum and the title of this thread obviously implies that we are going to be talking about religion here. Stop trying to equate atheists who (obviously) have convictions about what they perceive to be true with other religious people who are similarly enthusiastic. If you knew me IRL, we probably wouldn't talk about god that much, just as I'm sure most believers don't talk about god all the time.

What's wrong with asking people on a message board to explain their beliefs?

[Linus]

that is correct. I assume you're going to try to throw that back in my face?

No, I didn't post to start an argument or anything like that. And I think anything I can say now will be interpreted as such.

no, you were claiming victory that your interpretation was > my (wrong) guess

Again, I really wasn't. I told a story. You told me I was wrong. I countered against your allusion. And you told me I was wrong again.

Good thread, MG. I'm sorry that my story turned it contentious. I'm done here.

[CindyLou Who]

No, I didn't post to start an argument or anything like that. And I think anything I can say now will be interpreted as such.



Again, I really wasn't. I told a story. You told me I was wrong. I countered against your allusion. And you told me I was wrong again.

Good thread, MG. I'm sorry that my story turned it contentious. I'm done here.

:bighug:

[Hugh Jass]

this seems to contradict the statement that you think everyone should believe the same as you. (that is what annoyed me, i think. it implies you are right and everyone else is wrong.)

when I said "I think everyone should believe the same as me" I meant it as: of course I believe what I believe to be true with some degree of certainty. I have examined several options regarding what may or may not be true, and this one is the best I came up with.

This is what everyone does when they come to conclusions. Obviously, everyone thinks their conclusion is the best and that everyone should come to the same conclusion if they examined the same evidence and had the same capacity to reason.

I didn't mean it as a challenge to anyone, and I really don't mean that I disrespect anyone's beliefs on here (unless they push me into a corner). I meant it in a purely theorectical way.

[magillaG]

Without brain function, that chemical mix and messaging, all those electrical pulses, do you exist? We do not know. Let's say somehow that intricate web of brain cells are still completely intact. The cells are not dead, just in that shut down state. Let's say we can hold your brain (frozen?) for an indefinite amount of time. Let us also say we can revive your brain, pumping blood back in with some sort of magic drug that wakes up all those brain cells. What do we have? Is it still you? My guess:
Some of this revived body's choices and behaviors will be the same as yours but memories won't. I would guess it would have a de ja vu feeling quite often.

I think that being under general anesthesia is very close to this. (Of course, you don't lose any memories, etc.)

I think your brain is necessary, but not sufficient, for you. You are a product of your brain's, and body's, interaction with the world around you. You especially need society. Human beings raised outside of society (by wolves, say) don't develop many of the characteristics we strongly associate with people. Complete isolation tends to drive most people insane.

I'm not sure this notion that we are our brains is correct. We are more than our brains.

[Hugh Jass]

No, I didn't post to start an argument or anything like that. And I think anything I can say now will be interpreted as such.



Again, I really wasn't. I told a story. You told me I was wrong. I countered against your allusion. And you told me I was wrong again.

Good thread, MG. I'm sorry that my story turned it contentious. I'm done here.

sorry linus- didn't mean for it to turn that way either. I thought disagreements were par for the course here. I know from your story you said you were a believer and I asked you to explain the lifeforce thing and you seemed to imply that your mom saw something supernatural when she was in the hospital. I don't believe in that stuff and I was offering up some other explanation for that.
I called your latin phrase thing "lame" and if that's what got the argument rolling, I'm sorry.

[Inconceivable]

I don’t claim to know what will happen in the after life but I don’t think it’s nothing. I have a friend I’ve known for a long time. This isn’t some quack. She didn’t tell me this story until we’ve been friend for a while because she didn’t want me to think she was crazy.

When she was a young girl she had an imaginary friend. He friend would show up in her room and they’d play. Anyway after a while my friend learned some strange words that her parents had no idea where she could have learned nor did they know what they mean. So they looked into them and the words were from a certain Native American tribe that used to live in that area long time ago. Her imaginary friends name (forget what it was) actually means “little girl” in that tribes language. Now there is no way that she would have learned this from her parents (who had no clue what the words were, from the TV or her other friends – this was a old Native American language people around here didn’t speak) So after she tells her parents that her imaginary friend told her that – they talked about it and realized something else very odd. Unlike most imaginary friends that went with you everywhere – her friend would only show up and play in her room.

Turns out her house was build close to an Native American burial ground – FROM THE TRIBE WHO’S WORDS SHE KNEW!!!

Now I trust 100% that this story is not made up because I know this person very well. It’s not something she freely talks about. But when I hear things like this I always think there’s more to the afterlife then nothingness. If that’s good or bad – I have no idea.

[Inconceivable]

BTW, I don't mean to turn this into a "ghost stories" thread.

[MountainGirl]

this thread was prompted by my reading about one guy's near death experience.

i didn't want to start any sort of religous debate.

[Hugh Jass]

this thread was prompted by my reading about one guy's near death experience.

i didn't want to start any sort of religous debate.

how is that possible?!?!?!!??

[jalapeno29]

when I die, they will bury me behind the shed with the hampsters.

[Hugh Jass]

I don’t claim to know what will happen in the after life but I don’t think it’s nothing. I have a friend I’ve known for a long time. This isn’t some quack. She didn’t tell me this story until we’ve been friend for a while because she didn’t want me to think she was crazy.

When she was a young girl she had an imaginary friend. He friend would show up in her room and they’d play. Anyway after a while my friend learned some strange words that her parents had no idea where she could have learned nor did they know what they mean. So they looked into them and the words were from a certain Native American tribe that used to live in that area long time ago. Her imaginary friends name (forget what it was) actually means “little girl” in that tribes language. Now there is no way that she would have learned this from her parents (who had no clue what the words were, from the TV or her other friends – this was a old Native American language people around here didn’t speak) So after she tells her parents that her imaginary friend told her that – they talked about it and realized something else very odd. Unlike most imaginary friends that went with you everywhere – her friend would only show up and play in her room.

Turns out her house was build close to an Native American burial ground – FROM THE TRIBE WHO’S WORDS SHE KNEW!!!

Now I trust 100% that this story is not made up because I know this person very well. It’s not something she freely talks about. But when I hear things like this I always think there’s more to the afterlife then nothingness. If that’s good or bad – I have no idea.


I call BS

[MountainGirl]

I don’t claim to know what will happen in the after life but I don’t think it’s nothing. I have a friend I’ve known for a long time. This isn’t some quack. She didn’t tell me this story until we’ve been friend for a while because she didn’t want me to think she was crazy.

When she was a young girl she had an imaginary friend. He friend would show up in her room and they’d play. Anyway after a while my friend learned some strange words that her parents had no idea where she could have learned nor did they know what they mean. So they looked into them and the words were from a certain Native American tribe that used to live in that area long time ago. Her imaginary friends name (forget what it was) actually means “little girl” in that tribes language. Now there is no way that she would have learned this from her parents (who had no clue what the words were, from the TV or her other friends – this was a old Native American language people around here didn’t speak) So after she tells her parents that her imaginary friend told her that – they talked about it and realized something else very odd. Unlike most imaginary friends that went with you everywhere – her friend would only show up and play in her room.

Turns out her house was build close to an Native American burial ground – FROM THE TRIBE WHO’S WORDS SHE KNEW!!!

Now I trust 100% that this story is not made up because I know this person very well. It’s not something she freely talks about. But when I hear things like this I always think there’s more to the afterlife then nothingness. If that’s good or bad – I have no idea.

freaky deaky. interesting story inco

[MountainGirl]

how is that possible?!?!?!!??

i'm sorry, not debate. ARGUMENT.

was just looking for people to share what they thought and their beliefs, not challenge other people, criticize, tell them they are wrong, etc...

i forgot this is the AO.

[Inconceivable]

I call BS

Why? I am certain she is not lying because she has no incentive to, I know her well and she is in no way profiting from this story. One of the coolest people I know. Top 3 probably. Trust her that she believes this story.

It's easy to say I call BS.

[Hugh Jass]

Why? I am certain she is not lying because she has no incentive to, I know her well and she is in no way profiting from this story. One of the coolest people I know. Top 3 probably. Trust her that she believes this story.

It's easy to say I call BS.

right, it's easy because it's an impossible story.

An alternative hypothesis: the parents formulated this native american idea and maybe interpreted her words as sounding like native american words. Native americans have a lot of vowel sounds, and kids make those kinds of sounds all the time.

I'm not saying she ain;t cool. I'm sure she probably really believes that story.

[MountainGirl]

it's not impossible.

to say it's impossible seems narrowminded.

[Inconceivable]

right, it's easy because it's an impossible story.

An alternative hypothesis: the parents formulated this native american idea and maybe interpreted her words as sounding like native american words. Native americans have a lot of vowel sounds, and kids make those kinds of sounds all the time.

I'm not saying she ain;t cool. I'm sure she probably really believes that story.

yeah that's possible except that there is no such thing as "native american" words. There were many tribes and many languages. Very coincidental that the words turned out to be from the one tribe that had a burrial ground near by.

Anyway the only reason that her parents thought that the words might be native american is because my friend wanted her hair braded on both sides in a really right braid because that's how her friend wore her hair. Then her parents asked her to describe the girls hair, looks and clothes and she described a little native american girl.

So maybe it's BS but it's not like I heard this from a guy who knows a guy. I believe the story. What exactly that means, I have on idea.

[jalapeno29]

it's not impossible.

to say it's impossible seems narrowminded.

the word that is needed here is improbable

[Hugh Jass]

it's not impossible.

to say it's impossible seems narrowminded.

:sad: no body in this thread agrees with me

[Inconceivable]

Inconceivable!!!

[Inconceivable]

:sad: no body in this thread agrees with me

I'll still buy you a beer.

[Hugh Jass]

the word that is needed here is improbable

impossible=100% could not happen
improbable=<100%

this story's "improbable" rating: 99.999999999999999999999% didn't happen

[jalapeno29]

:sad: no body in this thread agrees with me

can we agree to disagree?

I didnt even pay attention to what your stance is on this topic.

[Hugh Jass]

I'll still buy you a beer.

:bighug:

:toast:

[The Hoff]

So what happens when you die, after you die?

yes, there probably has been a thread to discuss this before, but I'm starting a new one.

You get to meet me.

[ACCtuary]

this thread was prompted by my reading about one guy's near death experience.

i didn't want to start any sort of religous debate.

If you drive by an outhouse, even if you don't stop there, your car will still smell.

[Hugh Jass]

can we agree to disagree?

I didnt even pay attention to what your stance is on this topic.

sure


I don't believe in supernatural events. Everyone else does and everyone else here thinks I'm a c*nt because I challenge their beliefs.

[General Apathy]

sure


I don't believe in supernatural events. Everyone else does and everyone else here thinks I'm a c*nt because I challenge their beliefs.

What about UFOs?

[MountainGirl]

j is just here for the beer.

HJ, we don't need to argue about this.

[jalapeno29]

sure


I don't believe in supernatural events. Everyone else does and everyone else here thinks I'm a c*nt because I challenge their beliefs.


I take that back, I completely agree

[Hugh Jass]

What about UFOs?

I don't believe in UFOs

-but-

as a point of debate, at least UFOs are based on SCIENCE not some mystical mumbo-jumbo

[jalapeno29]

j is just here for the beer.

HJ, we don't need to argue about this.

and the women!

[ACCtuary]

so what if you believe in god, but don't accept christ per se, or christian beliefs, are you still going to hell?

You didn't mean to start a religious debate, but you jump right in with the post here. If you feel certain that Christ or Christian beliefs are false, then their opinion of who is hell-bound is completely irrelevant.

[jalapeno29]

I believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, cause they give me presents.

[Inconceivable]

sure


I don't believe in supernatural events. Everyone else does and everyone else here thinks I'm a c*nt because I challenge their beliefs.

I think you are a whales vagina.

[MountainGirl]

sure


I don't believe in supernatural events. Everyone else does and everyone else here thinks I'm a c*nt because I challenge their beliefs.

HJ, i don't think anyone here is trying to argue with you are calling you a c*nt. we still love you! But I believe Inco's story and i believe other stuff that you don't. so what. why can't we all get along?

[Hugh Jass]

j is just here for the beer.

HJ, we don't need to argue about this.

ok, maybe I'll just leave this thread before I cause any more damage.

Please know that when I argue, it's never personal with anyone. I lovies you all just the same.

[Inconceivable]

I don't believe in UFOs

-but-

as a point of debate, at least UFOs are based on SCIENCE not some mystical mumbo-jumbo

Why can't the afterlife (some form of it) be explained by science? Are you sure that because it hasn't been that it can't be? We've discovered and proved all that there is and ever will be?

[jalapeno29]

ok, maybe I'll just leave this thread before I cause any more damage.

Please know that when I argue, it's never personal with anyone. I lovies you all just the same.

you c*nt

[MountainGirl]

You didn't mean to start a religious debate, but you jump right in with the post here. If you feel certain that Christ or Christian beliefs are false, then their opinion of who is hell-bound is completely irrelevant.

just a healthy curiosity.

[Hugh Jass]

HJ, i don't think anyone here is trying to argue with you are calling you a c*nt. we still love you! But I believe Inco's story and i believe other stuff that you don't. so what. why can't we all get along?

oh, I'm getting along. I was just saying I don't believe inco's story. I don't think any less of any of you. What kind of thread would this be if there wasn't more than 1 side to a topic? Wouldn't be fun if it was a bunch of believers stroking eachother off.

[Inconceivable]

ok, maybe I'll just leave this thread before I cause any more damage.

Please know that when I argue, it's never personal with anyone. I lovies you all just the same.

:tup:

You remember taht I was one of the main people arguing in that religion thread. I have a problem with organized religion. But I'm not going to say that there is no afterlife because I don't know everything there is to know in the world. So you can say that your best quess is taht there is nothing and I can say that my best quess is that there is something - but anyone speaking with certainty is kidding themselves.

[Inconceivable]

oh, I'm getting along. I was just saying I don't believe inco's story. I don't think any less of any of you. What kind of thread would this be if there wasn't more than 1 side to a topic? Wouldn't be fun if it was a bunch of believers stroking eachother off.

I call bids on MG.

And I disagree. If MG was stroking me off - this thread would be thread of the year IMO.

[Hugh Jass]

Why can't the afterlife (some form of it) be explained by science? Are you sure that because it hasn't been that it can't be? We've discovered and proved all that there is and ever will be?

I will amend my beliefs when I see the evidence.

[ACCtuary]

Fine. But it's exactly the same rationale as the people who show up on your porch and want to talk about Jehovah, Jesus, Buddha or FSM.

Nobody has ever stopped by my door to talk about FSM. It's not in their nature. To a degree, your arguments have the feel of describing properties of the empty set.

You are speaking of a very specific form of evangelism. Now, I have a better idea of what you were saying. Sales is OK. Door-to-door sales are annoying, but that's more a choice of medium than a discussion of the merits of evangelizing as a concept.

[vividox]

right, it's easy because it's an impossible story.

An alternative hypothesis: the parents formulated this native american idea and maybe interpreted her words as sounding like native american words. Native americans have a lot of vowel sounds, and kids make those kinds of sounds all the time.

I'm not saying she ain;t cool. I'm sure she probably really believes that story.

A thought:

I think it's kind of ridiculous when someone who is faithful starts calling everything and anything a "miracle". If anything happens at all, that event is justified by saying "this was a miracle".

However, I do think that there are certain things that happen that can't be described by science.

On the flip side, I think it's equally ridiculous when someone who is non-faithful tries to explain every extraordinary event is preposterous based on science.

There are things that happen that can't be explained by science, flat out. Someone may experience something and a doctor may call it "dementia, hallucination, schizophrenia, multiple-personality disorder" or a host of other things, but I think humans in general are just afraid of anything they can't explain. As if our intelligence should know no bounds, never be uncertain of why an event takes place, and always has an answer ready. We want to be our own God - we want to understand everything and anything. I think we are kidding ourselves. Especially if you subscribe to the fact that we are all here due to billions of years worth of chance and evolution, why do we think nature has equipped us with the ability to understand every single thing that happens when we can't even understand our own sociopolitical structures that we ourselves have created?

[Hugh Jass]

:tup:

You remember taht I was one of the main people arguing in that religion thread. I have a problem with organized religion. But I'm not going to say that there is no afterlife because I don't know everything there is to know in the world. So you can say that your best quess is taht there is nothing and I can say that my best quess is that there is something - but anyone speaking with certainty is kidding themselves.

absolutely.

[Inconceivable]

I will amend my beliefs when I see the evidence.

That's fine. Plus I don't THINK that you need to amend anything. The afterlife that I think exists is a one that your actions while you are alive have no bearing on.

[ACCtuary]

just a healthy curiosity.

Good point. From a political point of view, it actually does matter what are the prevalent beliefs of 1 billion people are even though from a theological point of view it should not matter at all.

[ACCtuary]

We ourselves will build the afterlife in the google cloud, then plug you in when you die.

[MountainGirl]

absolutely.

holy crap i think we're all agreeing on soemething

[ACCtuary]

If you are going to propose that something exists, and you cannot provide evidence,then you are obliged to propose a model by which it would work.

[Inconceivable]

Now getting back to the stroking part...

[General Apathy]

I don't believe in UFOs

-but-

as a point of debate, at least UFOs are based on SCIENCE not some mystical mumbo-jumbo

What if angels and Deities and mexicans are all just aliens?

what then?

[Inconceivable]

What if angels and Deities and mexicans are all just aliens?

what then?

Do they have papers? Are they in Arizona?

[MountainGirl]

A thought:

I think it's kind of ridiculous when someone who is faithful starts calling everything and anything a "miracle". If anything happens at all, that event is justified by saying "this was a miracle".

However, I do think that there are certain things that happen that can't be described by science.

On the flip side, I think it's equally ridiculous when someone who is non-faithful tries to explain every extraordinary event is preposterous based on science.

There are things that happen that can't be explained by science, flat out. Someone may experience something and a doctor may call it "dementia, hallucination, schizophrenia, multiple-personality disorder" or a host of other things, but I think humans in general are just afraid of anything they can't explain. As if our intelligence should know no bounds, never be uncertain of why an event takes place, and always has an answer ready. We want to be our own God - we want to understand everything and anything. I think we are kidding ourselves. Especially if you subscribe to the fact that we are all here due to billions of years worth of chance and evolution, why do we think nature has equipped us with the ability to understand every single thing that happens when we can't even understand our own sociopolitical structures that we ourselves have created?

while reading this i switched over to a twilight zone voice. i enjoyed that.

[Hugh Jass]

On the flip side, I think it's equally ridiculous when someone who is non-faithful tries to explain every extraordinary event is preposterous based on science.



why? how is that ridiculous? If you came home and your car was on the roof of your house would you think god did it or someone maybe showed up with a crane and hoisted it up there?


attempting to describe observed phenomona is the first step towards understanding them, and in some way, understanding ourselves.

[jalapeno29]

why? how is that ridiculous? If you came home and your car was on the roof of your house would you think god did it or someone maybe showed up with a crane and hoisted it up there?


attempting to describe observed phenomona is the first step towards understanding them, and in some way, understanding ourselves.

it was an isolated tornado DUH!

[Hugh Jass]

holy crap i think we're all agreeing on soemething

:toast:

[The Drunken Actuary]

why? how is that ridiculous? If you came home and your car was on the roof of your house would you think god did it or someone maybe showed up with a crane and hoisted it up there?


attempting to describe observed phenomona is the first step towards understanding them, and in some way, understanding ourselves.

Yeah, but what about the earth and the sun and life and cells and stuff. You telling me some crane put it all here?

[Hugh Jass]

Yeah, but what about the earth and the sun and life and cells and stuff. You telling me some crane put it all here?

yes

some metaphorical crane

[vividox]

why? how is that ridiculous? If you came home and your car was on the roof of your house would you think god did it or someone maybe showed up with a crane and hoisted it up there?


attempting to describe observed phenomona is the first step towards understanding them, and in some way, understanding ourselves.

If you come home to find a car on your roof, I'm sure there is an explanation other than "God put it there."

In the situation with Inconceivable's friend, however, there is no tangible empirical proof one way or the other. You can't scientifically prove to me she was lying or this story is embellished any more than I can scientifically prove to you that she actually saw an Indian ghost girl and played with her on occasion. You, however, insist you are right. You just assume there is a proof somewhere, we just don't have access to it.

[Hugh Jass]

If you come home to find a car on your roof, I'm sure there is an explanation other than "God put it there."

In the situation with Inconceivable's friend, however, there is no tangible empirical proof one way or the other. You can't scientifically prove to me she was lying or this story is embellished any more than I can scientifically prove to you that she actually saw an Indian ghost girl and played with her on occasion. You, however, insist you are right. You just assume there is a proof somewhere, we just don't have access to it.

there is an invisible chair next to you. Prove to me that this statement isn't true.

In the absence of evidence I refuse to jump to the supernatural conclusion because doing so means you've given up looking for real evidence. Is it not more reasonable to assume you just haven't found the answer yet than to credit some invisible force that can never be proven? This is why I think my perspective is "more right."

[Inconceivable]

there is an invisible chair next to you. Prove to me that this statement isn't true.

In the absence of evidence I refuse to jump to the supernatural conclusion because doing so means you've given up looking for real evidence. Is it not more reasonable to assume you just haven't found the answer yet than to credit some invisible force that can never be proven? This is why I think my perspective is "more right."

yeah but if I told you that I saw a chair (which I no longer see) and describe it to you in perfect detail, you research it and find that a rare (one of a kind or something) chair that looked exactly like i described was lost when that house burned down 80 years ago - what explanation/proof do you have that I didn't see that chair?

That scenario is a little more apples to apples.

[vividox]

there is an invisible chair next to you. Prove to me that this statement isn't true.

In the absence of evidence I refuse to jump to the supernatural conclusion because doing so means you've given up looking for real evidence. Is it not more reasonable to assume you just haven't found the answer yet than to credit some invisible force that can never be proven? This is why I think my perspective is "more right."

You are still assuming what the end result is before you know it, though. No, we don't know the answer, and if you want to know the answer you have to search for it, but if we were to further research this you would look for reasons how this story got distorted, not whether or not science can prove the existence of ghosts or remaining spirits or whatever you want to call them.

[Hugh Jass]

yeah but if I told you that I saw a chair (which I no longer see) and describe it to you in perfect detail, you research it and find that a rare (one of a kind or something) chair that looked exactly like i described was lost when that house burned down 80 years ago - what explanation/proof do you have that I didn't see that chair?

That scenario is a little more apples to apples.


how am I able to verify your description of the chair? is there a picture or something?

[Inconceivable]

how am I able to verify your description of the chair? is there a picture or something?

Sure. Or a description in a book or something. The point was that your invisible chair analogy was not apples to apples to the story that I told.

[Steve Grondin]

If you come home to find a car on your roof, I'm sure there is an explanation other than "God put it there."

What if it were a Mercedes-Benz?

[Hugh Jass]

You are still assuming what the end result is before you know it, though. No, we don't know the answer, and if you want to know the answer you have to search for it, but if we were to further research this you would look for reasons how this story got distorted, not whether or not science can prove the existence of ghosts or remaining spirits or whatever you want to call them.

If science came out with some instruments (like in ghostbusters) that could detect ghosts I would be interested in them. Of course, by that time, ghosts would no longer be supernatural and would be an acceptable theory to explain previous unknown events.

[ACCtuary]

What if it were a Mercedes-Benz?

then you must make amends!

[Hugh Jass]

Sure. Or a description in a book or something. The point was that your invisible chair analogy was not apples to apples to the story that I told.

ok if there's a picture in a book or something I would start trying to figure out how you may have seen that picture before and what your motivations for lying to me might be.

My invisible chair I mentioned because people who look for supernatural solutions fall into the trap of asking others to disprove their unproveable claims.

[Danjew]

impossible=100% could not happen
improbable=<100%

this story's "improbable" rating: 99.999999999999999999999% didn't happen

What evidence do you use to support your hypothesis that this story is 99.999999999999999999999% improbable. Inco brings some evidence. You say it is BS, but based on what evidence exactly? How do you explain how accurate the description was?

I could understand the idea, I won't believe anything without evidence, but what evidence do you need for this sort of event? Why isn't this good enough? I am not asking you to believe in the afterlife, G-d, etc, just that why do you dismiss this evidence as totally fabricated without any evidence that it was fabricated?

ETA: A girl says an invisible native american spoke to her, BS. A girl gets info from this Native American that she could have never known to be true and is infact true and is detailed, I would say that this is likely not fabricated unless there is evidence that shows it is.

138. Exploiting the Darkness
One who returns from the darkness must bring of it with him and convert it to light. He must exploit his experience to surge higher and higher with greater strength.

Therefore, the one who returns from a distance is greater than the one who was always close. What matters is not so much where you stand, but with what force you are moving in which direction.

-From the wisdom of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of righteous memory

[GuineaPig]

Buddha is not a diety. Buddhism at its core does not "worship" any Gods AFAIK.
As for afterlife, I'm beginning to believe that there is none. Your body beomes one with nature. You do live on, through memories you have created for other people, through lives you have touched and influenced. Every person has necessarily influenced the course of humankind's history and will live on forever, no matter how small their contribution may seem.

its my understanding buddhist believe in a deity (but buddha is not said deity) but buddhist also believe that is vain to even attempt to talk about the deity since we have no way to understand it. but yeah.

[Hugh Jass]

What evidence do you use to support your hypothesis that this story is 99.999999999999999999999% improbable. Inco brings some evidence. You say it is BS, but based on what evidence exactly? How do you explain how accurate the description was?

well, I think it should be painfully clear I was being facetious with the 99.999999999999999% number....

Inco's evidence is fine. I want more evidence before I accept his hypothesis that his friend incountered the supernatural. Maybe there is no evidence to prove she made it up, imagined it, etc....I would always wonder about it but I would not think "oh, wow, there really must be ghosts."

[Hugh Jass]

My daughter makes up words all the time and talks to imaginary people. My daughter is also hard to understand sometimes. I bet some of her ramblings could, with a little imagination (especially if you really WANTED to believe in ghosts) sound like native american words (yes, Inco, I know there were mutliple native american languages. So please know that I mean she sounds like the ones that lived where I live)

[Inconceivable]

ok if there's a picture in a book or something I would start trying to figure out how you may have seen that picture before and what your motivations for lying to me might be.

My invisible chair I mentioned because people who look for supernatural solutions fall into the trap of asking others to disprove their unproveable claims.

But that's the thing. You're proving my point. For you no explanation/story would be good enough. If I didn't lie to you and I really did see that chair - you will assume that I somehow lied or did something else in order to justify your view that there is nothing. It just doesn't seem like you're open to the possibility. Which you're allowed to be.

I just prefer to be open to all possible options and consider all angles.

[Inconceivable]

That's it. I'm getting Hugh super drunk and them I'm dressing up like a ghost to mess with him. I'll probably get away with it to, as long as there are no meddling kids around.

[Hugh Jass]

I'm part native american. My ancestors are from the Micmac tribe up in the nova scotia are. When the europeans came over, they were converted to christianity. The priests would teach them and the micmacs wrote things down. They are the only tribe to write like that in the whole north america. Their writing looks just like heiroglyphics. In fact, many of the symbols for the words are the same as the ancient egyptians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi'kmaq_hieroglyphic_writing

some people thought "aha! this means they came from ancient egyptians!" because that's an exciting thought. With more study though, it doesn't function the same way as eqyptian writing and is probably a big coincidence.

That's what I think about inco's story. Just a big coincidence.

[GuineaPig]

for all those interested, there is a difference between pantheism and panentheism, but I can't tell you what it is and i think in most context they are used interchangeably

[QMO]

I will amend my beliefs when I see the evidence.Your reaction to Linus's and Inconceivable's stories is evidence that you'd be more likely to dismiss the evidence.

Just sayin'.

[QMO]

...The evidence is that the personal, subjective experience that has been you- the thoughts, feelings, relationships, etc, you have experienced for most of your life- seems very likely to end...I'm surprised at your wording. You've found evidence of this? Please share.

[Hugh Jass]

But that's the thing. You're proving my point. For you no explanation/story would be good enough. If I didn't lie to you and I really did see that chair - you will assume that I somehow lied or did something else in order to justify your view that there is nothing. It just doesn't seem like you're open to the possibility. Which you're allowed to be.

I just prefer to be open to all possible options and consider all angles.

no, if I could prove that you're not lying to me I would not suspect that you are lying to me. I would just think that right now, I have no way to know how you did what you did.

[QMO]

If it exists we'll have to throw a party in hell together. We know there will be plenty of immoral, loose women there to join us.But, would Hell be Hell if you could have party there?

[Hugh Jass]

Your reaction to Linus's and Inconceivable's stories is evidence that you'd be more likely to dismiss the evidence.

Just sayin'.

depends on what the "evidence" is.

[Inconceivable]

no, if I could prove that you're not lying to me I would not suspect that you are lying to me. I would just think that right now, I have no way to know how you did what you did.

Well in all honestly, I really didn't see that chair.

[GuineaPig]

Socrates believed in an afterlife - that's enough for me to think its real.

[ACCtuary]

Your going to hell, I'm gonna bask in His Glory and sing hymns about His Righteous Love for all of eternity.

Like that's fun.

[Inconceivable]

Dust in the wind.

All we are is dust in the wind.

[Hugh Jass]

Socrates believed in an afterlife - that's enough for me to think its real.

he was also gay. You gonna do that, too?

[Inconceivable]

he was also gay. You gonna do that, too?

Have you tried it? Don't knock it then.

[GuineaPig]

he was also gay. You gonna do that, too?

no, but i will believe that gay acts exist. Really that was a pretty lame thing to say.

[Danjew]

no, if I could prove that you're not lying to me I would not suspect that you are lying to me. I would just think that right now, I have no way to know how you did what you did.

Why would you not use this reasoning for anything you consider "evidence" of the supernatural? Why should you ever give in and "close your mind" to "real" evidence that comes up to explain such things?

139. Returning Light
In creating the whole of existence, G-d made forces that reveal Him and forces that oppose Him --He made light and He made darkness. One who does good brings in more light. One who fails, feeds the darkness.

But the one who fails and then returns transcends that entire scheme. He reaches out directly to the Essential Creator. Beyond darkness and light.

And so, his darkness becomes light.

-From the wisdom of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of righteous memory

[Patrick Bauer]

Socrates believed in an afterlife - that's enough for me to think its real.

In Socrates world there was no word for religion. Belief in demons, gods, etc. was as obvious as belief in the wind and the weather.

[GuineaPig]

In Socrates world there was no word for religion. Belief in demons, gods, etc. was as obvious as belief in the wind and the weather.

phaedo is a little more thought out than most of the superstitions of the time. :shrug:

[magillaG]

I'm surprised at your wording. You've found evidence of this? Please share.

Brain states and mental states seem very closely connected. Physical damage to your brain state has been known for a long time to be associated with a change in your mental state. More recently, studies with MRI machines show that changes in mental states are associated with changes in physical brain states.

Similarly, when you are born, and your brain is undeveloped, your personality, sense of self, memories, etc, are also undeveloped. They develop as your brain develops. People who have lost parts of their brain experience a similar loss in these things.

I am distinguish this from consciousness itself. As we understand consciousness better- if we understand consciousness better- then we may decide that it makes more sense to think of consciousness as continuing after death, presumably in a way that is very much outside of our current experience.

[Linus]

sorry linus- didn't mean for it to turn that way either

:tup: :h5: :toast:

[The Drunken Actuary]

I'm surprised at your wording. You've found evidence of this? Please share.

People die.

[Paul Brand]

there is an invisible chair next to you. Prove to me that this statement isn't true.

In the absence of evidence I refuse to jump to the supernatural conclusion because doing so means you've given up looking for real evidence. Is it not more reasonable to assume you just haven't found the answer yet than to credit some invisible force that can never be proven? This is why I think my perspective is "more right."

Suppose there is another universe out there with different physical laws. Are those laws supernatural? If yes, then supernatural isn't really a reason for disbelief in a god that is external to this universe. If no, then god need not be defined as supernatural.

[Linus]

depends on what the "evidence" is.

You see, I don't really think that any of this is "supernatural". I just think there's a lot of science that we just don't know about yet. Science that may be at times compatible and other times incompatible with notions of God, life and afterlife.

[Patrick Bauer]

I think that being under general anesthesia is very close to this. (Of course, you don't lose any memories, etc.)

I think your brain is necessary, but not sufficient, for you. You are a product of your brain's, and body's, interaction with the world around you. You especially need society. Human beings raised outside of society (by wolves, say) don't develop many of the characteristics we strongly associate with people. Complete isolation tends to drive most people insane.

I'm not sure this notion that we are our brains is correct. We are more than our brains.

I had a nice long response to this but it got deleted due to work demands. Freaking god unfairly makes me work. SO, the brief...

- I was stating what we know happens not stating the only thing that happens.
- Experiments with brain mapping have demonstrated physical locations (individual neurons) in the brain for memories.
- I don't know the answer and so I leave my view open for probable explanations.
- Speculative Fiction Contest Challenge: If we are able to take a person with all of their memories and personality traits and transfer them to a functioning artificial vessel of some kind what happens to life insurance? The body dies but the person lives on.

- I think of memories and traits as worn paths. Walk the same path many times or walk it heavily (high stress) and it becomes easier to stick to the trail. It is the act of walking and the path that make up who we are.

[Linus]

But, would Hell be Hell if you could have party there?

The beer would be warm, the music would be Milli Vanilli and the only person there would be a crying Jimmy Swaggart.

[JohnLocke]

Say there existed a being that was completely logical and made no assumption not based on proof and had no desire whatsoever to live past the normal life-death cycle that we know (in the way that many humans do in fact want to live forever or a very long time)...Even with the same information that we have, would such a being come to the conclusion that there is life after death? What My guess is no. Would they consider it even remotely likely (even though it's not disprovable)? My guess is the being would consider it very unlikely.

[GuineaPig]

OMGWTFBBQQ!!!!!!! JL!!!!!!!! WOOF!!!!

[Keep It Real, Yo]

JohnLocke... is from the afterlife!

[dragonfromtheeast]

We can celebrate death just like when we celebrate birth. Be happy :)

[Paul Brand]

Regarding an earlier question on what Christians believe about hell. I think it is quite varied. On one extreme you have the double predestinationists who believe that God elects people to heaven and elects people to hell, before you are even born. You have no choice in the matter.

On the other extreme you have the universalists who don't believe in the concept of hell, and that everyone goes to heaven.

I'm probably closer to the latter. I'm a borderline trinitarian universalist. I don't think anyone will be rejected eternally from heaven, unless they want to be. And I think God's grace comes with no expiry date. It does need to be received, and salvation is a process of transformation into unity with Christ. I don't think as many Christians do, that once you die, your choice of path ends. I'm sympathetic to temporary views of purgatory, but beyond that, I'm venturing into territory that is beyond speculative (and my views on this issue are speculative).

[Hugh Jass]

no, but i will believe that gay acts exist. Really that was a pretty lame thing to say.

I thought you were joking so I was joking

[GuineaPig]

I thought you were joking so I was joking

discrediting someone for the sexuality is a less than funny joke.

[Hugh Jass]

Suppose there is another universe out there with different physical laws. Are those laws supernatural? If yes, then supernatural isn't really a reason for disbelief in a god that is external to this universe. If no, then god need not be defined as supernatural.

there can't be another universe, by definition the universe is all that there is

[Hugh Jass]

discrediting someone for the sexuality is a less than funny joke.

sorry dude

eta: that isn't what I was doing but sorry you took it that way if you're seriously upset

[Patrick Bauer]

phaedo is a little more thought out than most of the superstitions of the time. :shrug:

Yes it was. It was a product of living a well examined life.

[Agadefe]

there can't be another universe, by definition the universe is all that there is

But parallel universes! LOST!

[Patrick Bauer]

1. We know things.
2. We know of things we don't know.
3. We don't know things.

One is finite, three is infinite. As our knowledge grows things move up the list. It is foolish to attribute what we know to the supernatural. It is foolish to assume all that we don't know is within our ability to know.

[CNN]

Does anyone else have Squirrel Nut Zippers going through their head all day because of this stupid thread?

[Hugh Jass]

Does anyone else have Squirrel Nut Zippers going through their head all day because of this stupid thread?

I do

[Hugh Jass]

1. We know things.
2. We know of things we don't know.
3. We don't know things.

One is finite, three is infinite. As our knowledge grows things move up the list. It is foolish to attribute what we know to the supernatural. It is foolish to assume all that we don't know is within our ability to know.

right, but it is also foolish to assume that what we will never know is "supernatural"

[MountainGirl]

right, but it is also foolish to assume that what we will never know is "supernatural"

the point is that we don't know, so we don't know if it is supernatural or not. and also, define supernatural.

[Paul Brand]

there can't be another universe, by definition the universe is all that there is

You are equivocating yourself out of answering my question.

It is very clear from the context, which definition of 'universe' I'm using, and it ain't the one that means the totality of all matter and energy. Perhaps you have never heard of the concept of a multiverse? Perhaps you are certain that a multiverse couldn't possibly exist? Perhaps you were unaware of multiverse theories which suggest different natural laws and physical constants amongst various universes?

[Hugh Jass]

the point is that we don't know, so we don't know if it is supernatural or not. and also, define supernatural.

supernatural means does not follow the laws of nature that everything else follows.

Can someone please tell me some more examples of things that have happened that we can't explain and that you think we will never be able to explain?
Seems like the stuff we will never be able to explain are qualitative in nature, like "why do I exist" and "why is there anything?" and "what is love?"
What you guys are trying to trap me with, so far, are anecdotal stories of ghosts and sick relatives knocking on death's door that have plausible reasonable explanations.

what about a physics kind of thing? Like marrying quantum mechanics to general relativity. I don't know if we can ever figure it out. Maybe it is unknowable. But that doesn't mean it is supernatural.

[Hugh Jass]

You are equivocating yourself out of answering my question.

It is very clear from the context, which definition of 'universe' I'm using, and it ain't the one that means the totality of all matter and energy. Perhaps you have never heard of the concept of a multiverse? Perhaps you are certain that a multiverse couldn't possibly exist? Perhaps you were unaware of multiverse theories which suggest different natural laws and physical constants amongst various universes?

I'm not an expert on multiverse stuff.

ok, if I can imagine this universe had different laws of physics and stuff, then no, they would not be supernatural.
As I replied to MG, I understand supernatural to mean something that happens contrary to all known laws of nature. So in your framework, if there are laws of nature and things obey them consistently, they are not supernatural within that universe.

[Hugh Jass]

OMG!!! I just levitated out of my chair!!!!!!You have to believe me because you can't prove it didn't happen and gosh darn it, there are just some things that are unknowable!

[The Drunken Actuary]

What's up Paul?

[MountainGirl]

i was wondering where htis thread would go

[vividox]

HJ's mad guitar skillz are un'splainable. Science has no answer for how good he is!

[Hugh Jass]

HJ's mad guitar skillz are un'splainable. Science has no answer for how good he is!

aw shucks, you're too generous there

viv had super dooper mad skillz

[Hugh Jass]

actually, how do we know that there are some things that are unknowable? How can we ever prove this?

[vividox]

actually, how do we know that there are some things that are unknowable? How can we ever prove this?
String theory.

[Inconceivable]

:boo:

[Paul Brand]

I'm not an expert on multiverse stuff.

ok, if I can imagine this universe had different laws of physics and stuff, then no, they would not be supernatural.
As I replied to MG, I understand supernatural to mean something that happens contrary to all known laws of nature. So in your framework, if there are laws of nature and things obey them consistently, they are not supernatural within that universe.

Suppose further that two different universes collided (I'm still within orthodox scientific speculation), and the laws are shifted in ways that are totally bizarre (relative to our experience). Would that be supernatural?

I want to be clear how you are defining supernatural. Are laws from a different universe supernatural to us? I think you implied your answer is yes, but I'm not sure whether you intentionally implied it.

The laws of nature that exist in our universe, could be thought of as a subset, of what I call 'super-natural' laws (e.g. the general laws that govern the multiverse).

By the way, I don't expect this to convince you that God exists (I can't always convince myself either), but I think it does show that your reasoning is either flawed or incomplete with regard to your rejecton of supernatural phenomena.

----

On a slight tangent, I've discussed this on this forum here before, but there is something very bizarre about why anything exists. Choosing between an existence that has an ultimate beginning, and an existence that goes into the infinite past, are both incomprehensible, in my opinion. People often justify their beliefs in one or the other by the absuridity of the other option, and a bit of Spock logic (i.e. of every other option is shown to be impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be true).

In my mind, I've never really gotten past the stumbling block of out of nothing, nothing comes. Wouldn't the universe be more comprehensible if nothing existed? We also have the scientific observation, that our particular universe is extraordinarily fine-tuned, to be hospitable to life. (This may be one reason why the multiverse theory exists by the way, as a single universe hypothesis doesn't explain this coincidence all that well). You can explain fine-tuning, either as a stroke of luck, as a necessary outcome due to a very, very large sample size of universe, or as the product of a mind of sorts (perhaps God, or a computer programmer). There may be a few other explanations, but I think these are the most popular ones.

But, sorting through the science and philosophy is pretty hard, and so either people give up trying, or they defer to some other way of discerning the universe (these aren't the only options). I think people tend to develop a mental model, as to how their lifetime of experiences can be explained. And for many, some of these experiences are bizarre.

And to clarify, I'm very skeptical of supernatural claims. I don't expect God to intervene all that much in nature. I think nature largely accomplishes what God desires, and that God is competent enough that he doesn't have to tinker much with what he originally created. I think some Christians are too animistic in their beliefs about nature (and they think I'm too deistic).

[Klaymen]

Nope. Eventually we all end up in the same place. United with G-d. Then after that we eventually come back to earth, perfected in complete harmony, peace and truth. This is due to all of the good things you and others did in their life. Congrats.
That might be the unitarian univeralist loving-God-could-never-send-anyone-to-hell philosphy, but I wouldn't begin to label that as a "Christian" belief.
I think if you've ever heard of Christ in your life, but do not accept, yes you go to hell. If you lived in some remote village and never heard of Christ, but led a good life you go to purgatory. Hell otherwise.
I've never ever attended a church that believed in purgatory either. Is there a biblical basis for it? Not that I'm aware of.

[Paul Brand]

What's up Paul?

Recycling old conversations. Refreshes my memory on what I believe. But sometimes I forget, and I decide to believe something else. One of the advantages of being forgetful is that I get to live my life believing all sorts of things. I might become a libertarian tomorrow. You never know.

Is that the answer you were looking for?

[The Drunken Actuary]

Recycling old conversations. Refreshes my memory on what I believe. But sometimes I forget, and I decide to believe something else. One of the advantages of being forgetful is that I get to live my life believing all sorts of things. I might become a libertarian tomorrow. You never know.

Is that the answer you were looking for?
I wasn't really looking for anything in particular. Just saying hi.

[Paul Brand]

I wasn't really looking for anything in particular. Just saying hi.

Hi!

Have any of your beliefs changed in the last 5 years that we need to discuss?

[Paul Brand]

I've never ever attended a church that believed in purgatory either. Is there a biblical basis for it? Not that I'm aware of.

I think Catholics reference the Apocrypha. Personally, I think the Bible seems to stick to metaphorical descriptions of the afterlife, and a concept similar to purgatory could help fill in some of the unknowns. The early church had a large segment of universalists (they may have even been the majority opinion at one point in time), and they thought so based on their understanding of the Bible. But, I think the concept of trinitarian universalism (to be contrasted with unitarian universalism), doesn't suggest (at least with regard to what the early Christians believed) that everyone simply goes to heaven after they die, but that eventually, everyone will be saved.

I think this is a good article on trinitarian universalism. As I mentioned before, I'm not certain on what I believe, but I'm sympathetic to this view. It also discusses various biblical texts that are used in support, and that are used against the doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarian_Universalism

[Hugh Jass]

Suppose further that two different universes collided (I'm still within orthodox scientific speculation), and the laws are shifted in ways that are totally bizarre (relative to our experience). Would that be supernatural?

I want to be clear how you are defining supernatural. Are laws from a different universe supernatural to us? I think you implied your answer is yes, but I'm not sure whether you intentionally implied it.

The laws of nature that exist in our universe, could be thought of as a subset, of what I call 'super-natural' laws (e.g. the general laws that govern the multiverse).

By the way, I don't expect this to convince you that God exists (I can't always convince myself either), but I think it does show that your reasoning is either flawed or incomplete with regard to your rejecton of supernatural phenomena.

----

On a slight tangent, I've discussed this on this forum here before, but there is something very bizarre about why anything exists. Choosing between an existence that has an ultimate beginning, and an existence that goes into the infinite past, are both incomprehensible, in my opinion. People often justify their beliefs in one or the other by the absuridity of the other option, and a bit of Spock logic (i.e. of every other option is shown to be impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be true).

In my mind, I've never really gotten past the stumbling block of out of nothing, nothing comes. Wouldn't the universe be more comprehensible if nothing existed? We also have the scientific observation, that our particular universe is extraordinarily fine-tuned, to be hospitable to life. (This may be one reason why the multiverse theory exists by the way, as a single universe hypothesis doesn't explain this coincidence all that well). You can explain fine-tuning, either as a stroke of luck, as a necessary outcome due to a very, very large sample size of universe, or as the product of a mind of sorts (perhaps God, or a computer programmer). There may be a few other explanations, but I think these are the most popular ones.

But, sorting through the science and philosophy is pretty hard, and so either people give up trying, or they defer to some other way of discerning the universe (these aren't the only options). I think people tend to develop a mental model, as to how their lifetime of experiences can be explained. And for many, some of these experiences are bizarre.

And to clarify, I'm very skeptical of supernatural claims. I don't expect God to intervene all that much in nature. I think nature largely accomplishes what God desires, and that God is competent enough that he doesn't have to tinker much with what he originally created. I think some Christians are too animistic in their beliefs about nature (and they think I'm too deistic).

If 2 universes collided and new law of physics emerged that would have previously been unthinkable in either one or both of the previous 2 separate universes, then they would not really be supernatural because there would still be some scientific explanation for them. We might not know what it is at first, and sure it would look like supernatural stuff is happening.

-HOWEVER-

this would still not be an acceptable conclusion to believe in, imo. Like if I examined all details and looked under every rock, I wouldn't be like "oh, ok, what must've happened is that 2 universes just collided" or something because we're still in the realm or speculation.

I like all the other stuff you said and have very similar views/thoughts myself.

[Paul Brand]

If 2 universes collided and new law of physics emerged that would have previously been unthinkable in either one or both of the previous 2 separate universes, then they would not really be supernatural because there would still be some scientific explanation for them. We might not know what it is at first, and sure it would look like supernatural stuff is happening.

-HOWEVER-

this would still not be an acceptable conclusion to believe in, imo. Like if I examined all details and looked under every rock, I wouldn't be like "oh, ok, what must've happened is that 2 universes just collided" or something because we're still in the realm or speculation.

I like all the other stuff you said and have very similar views/thoughts myself.

I think I'm clearer on your definition, but not entirely.

I don't think I can scientifically test the laws of a different universe, even if it were to exist.

If someone from a different universe found a way to interact with our universe, we might occassionally see some odd phenomena, but we might not be able to test it scientifically, because the interactions may be too chaotic to scientifically detect. I'm not clear whether you would say this is supernatural or not.

[Hugh Jass]

I think I'm clearer on your definition, but not entirely.

I don't think I can scientifically test the laws of a different universe, even if it were to exist.

If someone from a different universe found a way to interact with our universe, we might occassionally see some odd phenomena, but we might not be able to test it scientifically, because the interactions may be too chaotic to scientifically detect. I'm not clear whether you would say this is supernatural or not.

that's one reason why I don't really understand different universes- it seems like everything that exists is part of one universe. maybe different dimensions would be a better way of talking about it? If indeed there are big bangs and big crunches and everything in the universe disappears in a singularity, and then explodes again into something new, maybe then there are different laws of physics and I suppose that would be the closest thing to a true "different universe"

If some other being could interact with our universe or dimension and our current scientific instruments could not detect it but the interaction was otherwise observable to our natural senses, I guess most people would call that "supernatural" but I would say it is just the existing laws of the universe playing out. We may not understand those laws but I believe humans may be able to understand it as our knowledge grows.

[The Borg]

Regarding an earlier question on what Christians believe about hell. I think it is quite varied. On one extreme you have the double predestinationists who believe that God elects people to heaven and elects people to hell, before you are even born. You have no choice in the matter.

On the other extreme you have the universalists who don't believe in the concept of hell, and that everyone goes to heaven.

I'm probably closer to the latter. I'm a borderline trinitarian universalist. I don't think anyone will be rejected eternally from heaven, unless they want to be. And I think God's grace comes with no expiry date. It does need to be received, and salvation is a process of transformation into unity with Christ. I don't think as many Christians do, that once you die, your choice of path ends. I'm sympathetic to temporary views of purgatory, but beyond that, I'm venturing into territory that is beyond speculative (and my views on this issue are speculative).

It seems to me that double predestinationism caps grace, while universalism nearly eliminates grace. I tend to want grace to abound, but yet the opposite of grace needs to exist so that grace is not diminished (if that makes any sense). So, at this point, I'd say that I'm in the middle of those extremes.

[vividox]

I don't understand different universes either. Like, how could the force of gravity simply not exist?

[The Drunken Actuary]

I don't understand different universes either. Like, how could the force of gravity simply not exist?

How/why does it exist? And why does it attract and not repel?

[Hugh Jass]

How/why does it exist? And why does it attract and not repel?

hopefully that accelerator in Switzerland can give us some insight into those great questions.

I just read yesterday about some experiment with the accelerator in Chicago and how they found out some important info on why anything exists. Something about more matter being created than anti-matter.

[magillaG]

that's one reason why I don't really understand different universes- it seems like everything that exists is part of one universe. maybe different dimensions would be a better way of talking about it? If indeed there are big bangs and big crunches and everything in the universe disappears in a singularity, and then explodes again into something new, maybe then there are different laws of physics and I suppose that would be the closest thing to a true "different universe"

If some other being could interact with our universe or dimension and our current scientific instruments could not detect it but the interaction was otherwise observable to our natural senses, I guess most people would call that "supernatural" but I would say it is just the existing laws of the universe playing out. We may not understand those laws but I believe humans may be able to understand it as our knowledge grows.

I think there are different versions of this, but the version I remember reading about goes like this:

Suppose that we have a theory of everything that looks reasonably like the physics theories that we have now. The theories we have now contain free parameters that are not determined by the theory themselves, but have to be measured. So, for example, Newton's gravitational constant G from F = GmM/r^2 is one of these.

The thing is, the qualitative sort of behavior we see depends on the value of these constants. Again with the analogy, if keep "dialing" G higher, the Sun's gravitational pull would eventually be so strong that the planets slammed into the Sun. Similarly, if we dial it low enough, all the planets fly away from the Sun. However, G is in a range so that we get this very interesting relatively stable configuration where the planets are moving around the Sun.

Similarly, if we change the masses of the up quark or down quark, atomic nuclei will no longer have a mix of neutrons and protons. Matter as we know it won't exist. And many other things like this.

I think one idea is that these parameters might not have been constant through space at the moment of the big bang. Perhaps, very far away, these constants are very different from what we have here. However, space is expanding, and this complicates thinking about it. The rate that something is expanding away from us is proportional to its distance from us. (This was Hubble's observation.) Eventually things get far enough away that they are moving away from us faster than the speed of light, and we can never reach them (probably.) So we can think of things beyond that horizon as a whole other "universe." Whatever lies beyond that area, if it make sense to think of it as existing, might be subject to different parameters as our universe, or area of the universe, and might therefore have fundamentally different conditions or behavior.

[Descalzo]

I don't think anyone will be rejected eternally from heaven, unless they want to be. And I think God's grace comes with no expiry date. It does need to be received, and salvation is a process of transformation into unity with Christ. I don't think as many Christians do, that once you die, your choice of path ends. I'm sympathetic to temporary views of purgatory, but beyond that, I'm venturing into territory that is beyond speculative (and my views on this issue are speculative).

You might be interested to know that the Mormons believe something very like that.

[Gentle Giant]

Heard an interview on NPR with Lisa Miller, the author of the recently published Heaven: Our Enduring Fascination with the Afterlife (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060554754/). Then I found this thread. It can't be explained as a coincidence, so IT MUST BE A MIRACLE!!!!!111!!@@!!

I'm interested in reading this book. That is all.

[Danjew]

That might be the unitarian univeralist loving-God-could-never-send-anyone-to-hell philosphy, but I wouldn't begin to label that as a "Christian" belief.

Neither would I. I was giving the Jewish belief of the Afterlife not the Christian one. The Christian one isn't pretty and I could never believe in it.

143. Mentors
Every person needs a mentor. And that mentor needs a mentor. And that mentor as well --nobody pulls himself up by tugging at his own hair.

Go out and find yourself someone you can rely on for advice and counsel, someone who understands you and whom you can trust and respect. If that person turns you down, insist and persist. Don’t wait to become a student. Be proactive and make someone into your teacher.

-From the wisdom of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of righteous memory

[MountainGirl]

Heard an interview on NPR with Lisa Miller, the author of the recently published Heaven: Our Enduring Fascination with the Afterlife (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060554754/). Then I found this thread. It can't be explained as a coincidence, so IT MUST BE A MIRACLE!!!!!111!!@@!!

I'm interested in reading this book. That is all.

"Fast Lane to Heaven" is also a good book.

[Steve Grondin]

Falco's q about purgatory: As well as support from books excluded by Martin Luther from the Bible, Catholic position also comes in part from 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

A little bit of thread drift but I heard something for the first time the other day, regarding "How can a just God create a person knowing that person will choose against Him (choose Hell instead of salvation)?"

Some people believe that God's omniscience includes all things that are (or were or will be given His perspective outside time) and also what existing persons with free will choose, but not what the free will choices of a person not created will be, were he to be created. In essence the premise is God didn't know until He created you.

I don't have the philosophical chops to digest that one, but found it interesting.

[Klaymen]

Falco's q about purgatory: As well as support from books excluded by Martin Luther from the Bible, Catholic position also comes in part from 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
To me this speaks of how material possessions will be discarded at the end of the age. If that is all you have to show for, there will be little reward. I think to take this as grounds for purgatory is reading a lot into scripture. The rest of the New Testament goes on and on about heaven and hell, suffering or paradise, sheep or goats. Jesus really doesn't offer any middle ground at all, so I think purgatory is complete man-made fiction.

But, IANABS.


A little bit of thread drift but I heard something for the first time the other day, regarding "How can a just God create a person knowing that person will choose against Him (choose Hell instead of salvation)?"

I earnestly struggled with this one once. I don't think God wanted people to suffer, but if He wanted a creation then it would be up to them to choose Him with their free will. None of us knows what it's like to be God, this is certainly an area where our personalities fall short of understanding Him. Sometimes we are happy to see an evildoer reap his just reward. But in general none of us WANTS there to be a hell. Purgatory would then be a very popular concept - it's what people want to believe - that there is another alternative. But what basis is there for believing so?


Some people believe that God's omniscience includes all things that are (or were or will be given His perspective outside time) and also what existing persons with free will choose, but not what the free will choices of a person not created will be, were he to be created. In essence the premise is God didn't know until He created you.

I think God knows what everyone will choose, but still gives them the choice. From Psalm 139:

1 O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

[E. Blackadder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHnubRgmRA

[asdfasdf]

What happens to a dream you can't remember?

That's pretty much how I think of any life after death, maybe it's out there, I don't know, but I don't believe that I continue with the same conciousness I have now. No doubt the physical body dies, the problem is of course conciousness, and the root of that problem is that it doesn't really start in a discrete fashion, which makes it hard to really accept it ending in a discrete manner. In the end, although I fear death I think I'd fear eternal life more if I lived it as I exist now, what would you do after the first million years or so? It would become unbearable.