NBA: Size uncorrelated with Skill

[CNN]

I've seen this topic come up several times with different groups of friends or acquaintances. It usually happens when we watch some 6'10'' to 7'2'' NBA Center throw down an easy dunk or something.

The guys I'm with will say something like: "If you put me right now into the body of Kendrick Perkins or Shaq or Dwight Howard, etc, then I could do just as well in the NBA."

They go on to say that successful big men in the NBA do not need to be particularly coordinated or athletic and can rely solely on their size to make them effective NBA players. Most of these guys who make this claim range from average white men who never played even JV basketball to marginal HS varsity players.

I disagree with them based on knowing some extremely athletic people who were gifted in other sports too and also built for the NBA. These few examples still didn't have what it takes to make it in the NBA and had to downgrade to European leagues. What do others think?

[dlwktb]

I think it's pretty clear the big men are less skillful than the little guys. I'm not sure it's as big of gap as those guys claim though. Maybe Yao Ming, though. He seems like he's just getting by on size.

[MooBeay]

I've seen this topic come up several times with different groups of friends or acquaintances. It usually happens when we watch some 6'10'' to 7'2'' NBA Center throw down an easy dunk or something.

The guys I'm with will say something like: "If you put me right now into the body of Kendrick Perkins or Shaq or Dwight Howard, etc, then I could do just as well in the NBA."

They go on to say that successful big men in the NBA do not need to be particularly coordinated or athletic and can rely solely on their size to make them effective NBA players. Most of these guys who make this claim range from average white men who never played even JV basketball to marginal HS varsity players.

I disagree with them based on knowing some extremely athletic people who were gifted in other sports too and also built for the NBA. These few examples still didn't have what it takes to make it in the NBA and had to downgrade to European leagues. What do others think?

i agree with you. the NBA players are being compared to other phenom nba players, so they look uncoordinated etc. put them in a league of 6'10 non-nba players and they would look incredible.

[MooBeay]

I think it's pretty clear the big men are less skillful than the little guys. I'm not sure it's as big of gap as those guys claim though. Maybe Yao Ming, though. He seems like he's just getting by on size.

yao ming is extremely skilled.

[Mark it 8, Dude]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems pretty obvious that if your friends were 7 feet tall, they'd be better basketball players.

[CNN]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems pretty obvious that if your friends were 7 feet tall, they'd be better basketball players.

I don't think anyone's not agreeing with that, but good enough to immediately play in the NBA and be effective? I think these people underestimate just how much skill is required in addition to size.

[Inconceivable]

I think it's pretty clear the big men are less skillful than the little guys. I'm not sure it's as big of gap as those guys claim though. Maybe Yao Ming, though. He seems like he's just getting by on size.

This is a schockingly stupid post.

[dlwktb]

This is a schockingly stupid post.

Not that shocking. I don't watch much NBA.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

Let's say there are only 1,000 7 footers in the world and 5,000,000 6 footers. Obviously there are going to be more 6 footers that have mad skills.

[Minnesotah]

I think at the highest level (NBA) there is a lot of skill and athleticism that, along with a 6'10'' to 7'2'' frame, allows those players to succeed. At lower levels (high school, NCAA) not so much. Basketball is a bit annoying in that regard. Most 6'10'' farm boys from no-where Nebraska can get a full ride to college, even if they played only one year of high school basketball and can barely walk and chew gum. Whereas any talented 5'11'' guy has to be in the top 1% of about 5 million other guys just like him fighting for a point-guard position in the NCAA.

In summary, play soccer or baseball -- sports that emphasize skill and have a broad range of heights/weights at the highest levels of competition.

[dlwktb]

Since my Yao Ming statement was wrong, who is the least talented 7-footer? Just so we can get a frame of reference for what these guys would be trying to achieve.

[kolya23]

I think at the highest level (NBA) there is a lot of skill and athleticism that, along with a 6'10'' to 7'2'' frame, allows those players to succeed. At lower levels (high school, NCAA) not so much. Basketball is a bit annoying in that regard. Most 6'10'' farm boys from no-where Nebraska can get a full ride to college, even if they played only one year of high school basketball and can barely walk and chew gum. Whereas any talented 5'11'' guy has to be in the top 1% of about 5 million other guys just like him fighting for a point-guard position in the NCAA.

In summary, play soccer or baseball -- sports that emphasize skill and have a broad range of heights/weights at the highest levels of competition.

Hmm, I would say "play whatever sport you enjoy". I wouldn't concern myself at all with my (or presumably my child's) odds of turning pro. If they are that good at a sport, I bet we'll figure it out.

[Quasi]

Since my Yao Ming statement was wrong, who is the least talented 7-footer? Just so we can get a frame of reference for what these guys would be trying to achieve.

Kwame Brown comes to mind. Is he even in the league anymore? I doubt your friends would even be as "good" as Kwame and he sucks donkey balls.

[Inconceivable]

Since my Yao Ming statement was wrong, who is the least talented 7-footer? Just so we can get a frame of reference for what these guys would be trying to achieve.

Well there are so many dudes that didn't pan out that it's crazy. But a bunch of guys that play(ed) can be used...Darko Milicic, Quame Brown, Shawn Bradley, Gheorghe Mureşan...

[Runner]

Let's say there are only 1,000 7 footers in the world and 5,000,000 6 footers. Obviously there are going to be more 6 footers that have mad skills.
This is right on. There was a statement in Outliers I think. He said you don't have to be super tall to make it to the NBA, you just have to be tall enough. There are as many 6-2 NBA players as there are 7-0 NBA players. What he neglected to mention is that there are thousands of times as many 6-2 people in the population. Your chances of getting to the NBA given that you are 7-0 are astronomically higher than if you are 6-2. But, your chances are still still pretty small even if you are 7-0. You probably have a better chance of being a doctor.

[keyser soze]

Since my Yao Ming statement was wrong, who is the least talented 7-footer? Just so we can get a frame of reference for what these guys would be trying to achieve.

I would say someone like Shawn Bradley or Greg Ostertag.

[ditkaworshipper]

well, if they had Dwight Howard's body, I agree with your friends that they could be in the NBA. He is an athletic freak. The other examples given are people who are not athletic freaks.

That said, Howard has to work A TON for his body.

Pretty much, if you are 6'8" and extremely athletic (40 in. vertical type) and you can't get into the NBA, you screwed up. Tyrus Thomas is a good example. He had no jump shot when the bulls picked him up with a 4th pick. Granted, his defense is disgusting.

[Minnesotah]

Hmm, I would say "play whatever sport you enjoy". I wouldn't concern myself at all with my (or presumably my child's) odds of turning pro. If they are that good at a sport, I bet we'll figure it out.

I agree. I'm not talking about needing my kid to turn pro, or even play in college. My reference to soccer and baseball was just for grins. But...

There are plenty of people who are good basketball players that played from ages 5-15 only to realize they will never be able to play for their high-school team because they are 5-10, and there are 500 other guys in their high-school who are just like them. Maybe the're in the top 2 out of those 500, and can be a guard, but still pretty tough. In contrast, if you're 6-8 and learned how to dribble yesterday you'll probably make the team. This exposes a flaw in the sport, IMO.

[kolya23]

well, if they had Dwight Howard's body, I agree with your friends that they could be in the NBA. He is an athletic freak. The other examples given are people who are not athletic freaks.

That said, Howard has to work A TON for his body.

Pretty much, if you are 6'8" and extremely athletic (40 in. vertical type) and you can't get into the NBA, you screwed up. Tyrus Thomas is a good example. He had no jump shot when the bulls picked him up with a 4th pick. Granted, his defense is disgusting.

I've always been a little suspicious of how hard Howard "worked" for his body. No doubt he was a physical freak from birth, but his muscle development in the last couple years seems beyond mere "hard work in the gym".

[Chuck]

I think the friends need to see some of these guys play really close up. I was at an Illini game a few years ago courtside and you otherwise really don't get the full flavor of how unhumanly quick and talented some of the really big guys are. And I am talking about guys not good enough for the NBA.

[ditkaworshipper]

I've always been a little suspicious of how hard Howard "worked" for his body. No doubt he was a physical freak from birth, but his muscle development in the last couple years seems beyond mere "hard work in the gym".
He's only 24 now, so that is part of it. I'm about that age and I added quite a bit of muscle in just a few months. If I was just working out all day like him, I could only imagine what would be possible. Protein supplements and gym work are a completely legitimate explanation in this case.
I think the friends need to see some of these guys play really close up. I was at an Illini game a few years ago courtside and you otherwise really don't get the full flavor of how unhumanly quick and talented some of the really big guys are. And I am talking about guys not good enough for the NBA.
True, and I have watched some great athletes courtside too. It's the quickness to size ratio that's really impressive, not the quickness itself. Same with NFL linemen.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

There was a dude at my high school that was 6'6" in 9th grade. He made the 9th grade team, and while the rest of us practiced and ran and all that shit, one coach stayed with him on the side and taught him how to catch a basketball and turn around without travelling. After a few weeks, the moved on to actually shooting a two foot shot after catching and turning.

By his senior year he was 6'11" and could catch the ball and turn and shoot five footers. Scored 5 or so points a game, and had 5+ blocks per game.

[larsondjs]

My college roommate made it to the NBA. He is 7'0". He only played in four or five games, but still...

Anyhoo, he was really fast. Quick, could knock down 15 footers like a high school guard. But he couldn't jump much. Seeing his athleticism compared to NBA dudes was very eye opening, as I'd actually played with/against him a few times.

[erosewater]

I think the friends need to see some of these guys play really close up. I was at an Illini game a few years ago courtside and you otherwise really don't get the full flavor of how unhumanly quick and talented some of the really big guys are. And I am talking about guys not good enough for the NBA.

:iatp:

The guy in the NBA who appears to be slow and unathletic is so much quicker and more agile than people realize. Just being big doesn't even come close to making you NBA-ready.

[Joe Blow]

Since my Yao Ming statement was wrong, who is the least talented 7-footer? Just so we can get a frame of reference for what these guys would be trying to achieve.

Well there are so many dudes that didn't pan out that it's crazy. But a bunch of guys that play(ed) can be used...Darko Milicic, Quame Brown, Shawn Bradley, Gheorghe Mureşan...I would say someone like Shawn Bradley or Greg Ostertag.

After dlwktb's post, I wanted to mention Shawn Bradley but have been scooped twice.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I think it's more obvious that the shorter you are, the more non-height skill you will need in order to make it and stay in the NBA.
Hence, the extremely biased, selected pool of NBA players will have smaller and highly skilled players, and it will have taller and relatively lower skilled players. (Yes, they are the highest-skilled of the tall people in the world.)

[CtrlAltDelete]

The player with the highest skill-to-size ratio (when the player is at their respective peaks) I've ever seen is Allen Iverson. But the player with the highest skill-to-speed ratio is Shaq.

[glassjaws]

yao ming is extremely skilled.

He gets injured and sits on the bench like the best of 'em. Or is that Greg Oden?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

The player with the highest skill-to-size ratio (when the player is at their respective peaks) I've ever seen is Allen Iverson. But the player with the highest skill-to-speed ratio is Shaq.
13.5-foot shots unguarded is not an important skill?

[Incredible Hulctuary]

I think it's more obvious that the shorter you are, the more non-height skill you will need in order to make it and stay in the NBA.
Hence, the extremely biased, selected pool of NBA players will have smaller and highly skilled players, and it will have taller and relatively lower skilled players. (Yes, they are the highest-skilled of the tall people in the world.)
Yep. Basically the difference between having to be in the top 0.00001% of skill + athleticism if you're 6', vs. being in the top 0.1% of those abilities if you're a 7-footer.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Yep. Basically the difference between having to be in the top 0.00001% of skill + athleticism if you're 6', vs. being in the top 0.1% of those abilities if you're a 7-footer.

Just found this in teh (spud) we(b)bs:
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-shortest-nba-players.php

[Incredible Hulctuary]

Just found this in teh (spud) we(b)bs:
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-shortest-nba-players.php

They left out Keith Jennings, a 5'7 guy who played 2 or 3 seasons for Golden State. Plus maybe a dozen other 5'10 and 5'11 guys, such as Travis Best.

[MooBeay]

They left out Keith Jennings, a 5'7 guy who played 2 or 3 seasons for Golden State. Plus maybe a dozen other 5'10 and 5'11 guys, such as Travis Best.

i took the list to be the BEST of the short guys listed by decreasing height. not shortest guys to play.

[MooBeay]

They left out Keith Jennings, a 5'7 guy who played 2 or 3 seasons for Golden State. Plus maybe a dozen other 5'10 and 5'11 guys, such as Travis Best.

plus its hard to put a dozen other guys into a top 10 list.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

plus its hard to put a dozen other guys into a top 10 list.
Well, they are small...