Iowa HS Wrestling

[Dr T Non-Fan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/highschool/news/story?id=6131909

Interesting story about a boy who refused to wrestle against a girl, forfeiting his match.


Northrup's father, Jamie Northrup, is a minister in the Believers in Grace Fellowship, an independent Pentecostal church in Marion that believes young men and women shouldn't touch in a "familiar way," said Bill Randles, the church's pastor.

Um, but boys touching boys in a "familiar way" is acceptable? OK.

[Actuary321]

If they are not gay does it really matter?

I looked for another thread to bump for this one. I thought there was somewhere else where we discussed a guy refusing to wrestle a girl. Oh well.

Having wrestled in HS I can understand the reluctance. I was way more 'familiar' with my wrestling buddies than I was with any female prior to my marriage.

I can imagine that it might actually become quite embarrassing (in an extremely obvious way in a wrestling singlet, I mean they can be nearly embarrassing if you are not nearly bumping uglies with a girl) for a guy who has been taught that the only time you can touch a female in a 'familiar way' is when you are married to them.

[DanielSong39]

Create a women's division, for crying out loud.

I have nothing else to say.

[Actuary321]

As the article states a few states have female wrestling championship tournaments. But with so few girls that are wrestling now, there probably isn't going to be many matches.

[Mick Fan]

If they are not gay does it really matter?

I looked for another thread to bump for this one. I thought there was somewhere else where we discussed a guy refusing to wrestle a girl. Oh well.

Having wrestled in HS I can understand the reluctance. I was way more 'familiar' with my wrestling buddies than I was with any female prior to my marriage.

I can imagine that it might actually become quite embarrassing (in an extremely obvious way in a wrestling singlet, I mean they can be nearly embarrassing if you are not nearly bumping uglies with a girl) for a guy who has been taught that the only time you can touch a female in a 'familiar way' is when you are married to them.

Agreed ... On ESPN radio, they were trying to compare wrestling a girl to playing basketball with a girl. Not even close. I wouldn't want my 15-year old son to be wrestling a girl. Violence aside, boys shouldn't be touching certain body parts of a girl. Any sport in which those kinds of acts are likely should be segregated by gender and boys should not face girls.

I like how the article notes that Northrup will not have to face the other girl in the consolation rounds because she was "pinned" twice.

[Blue Man]

Agreed ... On ESPN radio, they were trying to compare wrestling a girl to playing basketball with a girl. Not even close. I wouldn't want my 15-year old son to be wrestling a girl. Violence aside, boys shouldn't be touching certain body parts of a girl. Any sport in which those kinds of acts are likely should be segregated by gender and boys should not face girls.
If the girl consents to let the boy touch her thingies, then it's OK. One more reason not to be a religionist. You get to wrestle girls.

[3rookie]

I may or may not belong to the Pentecostal Church, but I have no problem with a boy refusing to wrestle a girl.

[Lee Mellon]

I wrestled. I don't recall any particular hold requiring breast fondling. If a wrestler is thinking about sex during a match, that wrestler is going to get a nice long look up at the ceiling lights. Plenty of time for sex after the match.

[Scars]

Wrestling is a fairly violent sport. I always had a hard time wrestling the girls because I was afraid I'd hurt them. I was usually much better than the girl, so I would end up doing a takedown clinic and just win 10-5 or something. Drove my coach nuts, but I didn't really know how to wrestle on the mat without inflicting pain.

The reasons this article gives for not wrestling a girl are immature and pathetic.
1. Boys, if you can believe it, can actually control themselves
2. A boner in a singlet is not exactly the goal in a wrestling match

[HatCapitol]

I wrestled. I don't recall any particular hold requiring breast fondling. If a wrestler is thinking about sex during a match, that wrestler is going to get a nice long look up at the ceiling lights. Plenty of time for sex after the match.

:iatp:

The idea that there is a sexual undertone in wrestling is way overplayed by people who don't know much about it, or religious fanatics like this kid. I can't ever recall thinking about sex during a match. Granted, there were no girls at my weight class, but still, there's not really any fondling involved.

[vito]

:iatp:

The idea that there is a sexual undertone in wrestling is way overplayed by people who don't know much about it, or religious fanatics like this kid. I can't ever recall thinking about sex during a match. Granted, there were no girls at my weight class, but still, there's not really any fondling involved.
The sexual undertone is only part of the story. It seems like the boy's bigger issue is he feels it is disrespectful to women to try to physically hurt them. I think that sounds somewhat reasonable.

[A Student]

:iatp:

The idea that there is a sexual undertone in wrestling is way overplayed by people who don't know much about it, or religious fanatics like this kid. I can't ever recall thinking about sex during a match. Granted, there were no girls at my weight class, but still, there's not really any fondling involved.

I agree that there is no sexual undertone in wrestling. But I can see where the boy has a no win situation here. If he wins, no big deal he beat up on a girl and his teammates would probably razz him for awhile. If he loses, then he's totally teased for getting beat up by a girl. Also, if he doesn't have any girls on his team that he practices against, then the first time going up against a girl could be awkward for him. Wrestling is very mental, and if you're thinking of "is this move appropriate" or "am I going to hurt her" rather than the situation, there is a good chance you'll screw up.

[Ginormous76]

There was another meet in the year where they both qualified to a certain point where they would wrestle. The boy also bowed out of that one based on his principles. It's only getting major coverage now, because he did it in the state championship tournament. To me, this seems like some kind of religious segregation by the Iowa HSAA. He already forfeited to her earlier in the year for the same reasoning, it now looks like they intentionally wouldn't let him win the championship.

[Cynical Realist]

He didn't forfeit to her earlier in the year, he sat out, and somebody else wrestled her.

[urysohn]

Good for him. It's not too often you see high school kids put in a position where they need to balance personal convictions against their personal (and attainable) goals and make the choice to put their convictions first.

[gosuruss]

I agree that there is no sexual undertone in wrestling. But I can see where the boy has a no win situation here. If he wins, no big deal he beat up on a girl and his teammates would probably razz him for awhile. If he loses, then he's totally teased for getting beat up by a girl. Also, if he doesn't have any girls on his team that he practices against, then the first time going up against a girl could be awkward for him. Wrestling is very mental, and if you're thinking of "is this move appropriate" or "am I going to hurt her" rather than the situation, there is a good chance you'll screw up.

Of course there is a win in this situation. It's the state tournament. you are there to win. Wow he gets razzed for a few days about it, who cares? People will forget in a week, and he'll be holding up the state championship if he's good.

[DeadActorII]

Correction to earlier post - the boy who refused to wrestle the girl may still see her again - there were TWO girls in the tournament this year, and it was the OTHER girl that got pinned twice and eliminated.

The forfeit-winning girl will compete again this morning...

[DeadActorII]

There was another meet in the year where they both qualified to a certain point where they would wrestle. The boy also bowed out of that one based on his principles. It's only getting major coverage now, because he did it in the state championship tournament. To me, this seems like some kind of religious segregation by the Iowa HSAA. He already forfeited to her earlier in the year for the same reasoning, it now looks like they intentionally wouldn't let him win the championship.

Same weight class, and if you are 1 or 2 in your District you go to State - IAHSAA can't do anything about it except to keep girls out of the boys' bracket, so there was absolutely no "fixing" involved by anyone at any level. Iowa is serious about wrestling - they would die on the sword if integrity came into question.

Earlier post about "separate women's division" - I doubt you'd find enough girls willing to wrestle to make a separate division that would rise to the competitive level of a State tournament.

[oofta]

I wrestled. I don't recall any particular hold requiring breast fondling. If a wrestler is thinking about sex during a match, that wrestler is going to get a nice long look up at the ceiling lights. Plenty of time for sex after the match.

Did you ever wrestle freestyle or Greco? (I realize this isn't either)

I could see how a ball and chain would be awkward too.

[DanielSong39]

Same weight class, and if you are 1 or 2 in your District you go to State - IAHSAA can't do anything about it except to keep girls out of the boys' bracket, so there was absolutely no "fixing" involved by anyone at any level. Iowa is serious about wrestling - they would die on the sword if integrity came into question.

Earlier post about "separate women's division" - I doubt you'd find enough girls willing to wrestle to make a separate division that would rise to the competitive level of a State tournament.

I'm sure you can find 5 girls that are willing to wrestle in the entire state of Iowa. Invite them all to the tournament and the winner gets crowned state champion.

[HatCapitol]

I agree that there is no sexual undertone in wrestling. But I can see where the boy has a no win situation here. If he wins, no big deal he beat up on a girl and his teammates would probably razz him for awhile. If he loses, then he's totally teased for getting beat up by a girl. Also, if he doesn't have any girls on his team that he practices against, then the first time going up against a girl could be awkward for him. Wrestling is very mental, and if you're thinking of "is this move appropriate" or "am I going to hurt her" rather than the situation, there is a good chance you'll screw up.

F that. She gets in the ring, she's fair game, and he should not shy away from using any move he would use on a dude in order to win the match. I'm not saying he should be trying to hurt her or do anything illegal, but if she can't handle wrestling at its typical level of brutality, she has no place there, and there's nothing wrong with showing her that.

As far as the getting teased for losing thing, that's completely lame. The real reason for sports at the youth level is to teach character and build experience in dealing with situations. Here is an opportunity for a kid to learn that he should do the best job he can regardless of potentially embarassing consequences, and the lesson he learns instead is how to weasel out of a team commitment, while BSing a moral pretense? Yeah, great example coach, or dad, or whatever adult made this decision. They should be ashamed.

[ldancer911]

I'm not saying he should be trying to hurt her or do anything illegal, but if she can't handle wrestling at its typical level of brutality, she has no place there, and there's nothing wrong with showing her that.

But you can see how some 15 year old kid might be uncomfortable with that...right? I mean how many sports are there have regular co-ed competitions? Let alone ones with a lot of physical contact.

[Optimus Prime]

I don't think there is anything wrong with what this kid did. I also don't think there would be anything wrong with him stepping on the mat and kicking her ass with the same level of ass kicking he would have administered to a male. I also don't think there would be anything wrong with her kicking his ass.

Has this kid hurt himself out of a scholarship? Or does it really not matter because the colleges have already scouted him?

[DeadActorII]

I'm sure you can find 5 girls that are willing to wrestle in the entire state of Iowa. Invite them all to the tournament and the winner gets crowned state champion.

No, sorry, winning a tournament of 5 is not the same as winning a tournament of 16, the number of boys that go to State in Iowa...from EACH WEIGHT CLASS...in EACH of THREE SCHOOL-SIZE CLASSES...

Thanks for playing though - here are some lovely parting gifts...

[DeadActorII]

BTW, the fofeit-winning girl lost her first competitive match in the tournament, and then was pinned in the consolation match so she is now out of the tournament. The boy who defaulted to her also lost his next consolation match so he's out too.

[Meathead]

Good for him. It's not too often you see high school kids put in a position where they need to balance personal convictions against their personal (and attainable) goals and make the choice to put their convictions first.

:iatp:

No, sorry, winning a tournament of 5 is not the same as winning a tournament of 16, the number of boys that go to State in Iowa...from EACH WEIGHT CLASS...in EACH of THREE SCHOOL-SIZE CLASSES...

Thanks for playing though - here are some lovely parting gifts...

Wow, DeadActorIII heavy on the sarcasm. I didn't realize all State Championships have to be equal. Why do they even have football championships in Iowa? Quick test question:

Iowa Girls wrestling : Iowa Boys wreastling as Iowa h.s. football : _____
A. Texas h.s. Football
B. Florida h.s. Football
C. California h.s. Football
D. A and B
E. All of the Above

Answer:
E, with a nice parting gift basket

[DeadActorII]

Meathead, you missed the point completely, and you speak of that which you clearly do not know...and why did you change the subject to football? I was discussing the difference between winning a 5-entry tournament and a 16-entry tournament in a completely different sport...

IA HS wrestling is quite a big deal - arguably the best in the nation at that level - and being crowned State Champ Wrestler in Iowa is HUGE because of the quality of the competition...finding 5 girls from across the state to wrestle in a separate division is a laughable suggestion - that was my point...

[vito]

No, sorry, winning a tournament of 5 is not the same as winning a tournament of 16, the number of boys that go to State in Iowa...from EACH WEIGHT CLASS...in EACH of THREE SCHOOL-SIZE CLASSES...

Thanks for playing though - here are some lovely parting gifts...
Why does it have to be "the same"?

[A Student]

F that. She gets in the ring, she's fair game, and he should not shy away from using any move he would use on a dude in order to win the match. I'm not saying he should be trying to hurt her or do anything illegal, but if she can't handle wrestling at its typical level of brutality, she has no place there, and there's nothing wrong with showing her that.

As far as the getting teased for losing thing, that's completely lame. The real reason for sports at the youth level is to teach character and build experience in dealing with situations. Here is an opportunity for a kid to learn that he should do the best job he can regardless of potentially embarassing consequences, and the lesson he learns instead is how to weasel out of a team commitment, while BSing a moral pretense? Yeah, great example coach, or dad, or whatever adult made this decision. They should be ashamed.

RE: first paragraph, I agree that that's the way it SHOULD be, but to expect that every male competitor is going to feel that way is just not realistic.

RE Second paragraph, I disagree that the kid should be ashamed if it was his descision. He did exactly what you said sports were for - he expressed his character by dealing with the situation that he was given. He dealt with it in a way that upheld his principles. I think he learned a good lesson (or demonstrated good character). Now, if it was somebody else forcing him to forfeit based on their own principles, then that is something else.

[vito]

Meathead, you missed the point completely, and you speak of that which you clearly do not know...and why did you change the subject to football? I was discussing the difference between winning a 5-entry tournament and a 16-entry tournament in a completely different sport...

IA HS wrestling is quite a big deal - arguably the best in the nation at that level - and being crowned State Champ Wrestler in Iowa is HUGE because of the quality of the competition...finding 5 girls from across the state to wrestle in a separate division is a laughable suggestion - that was my point...
Most everyone knows rasslin' is wildly popular in Iowa. So wouldn't it seem possible that if the school systems officially set up a girl's wrestling progam and actively promoted it that there would be a sufficient level of participants?

[vito]

As far as the getting teased for losing thing, that's completely lame. The real reason for sports at the youth level is to teach character and build experience in dealing with situations. Here is an opportunity for a kid to learn that he should do the best job he can regardless of potentially embarassing consequences, and the lesson he learns instead is how to weasel out of a team commitment, while BSing a moral pretense? Yeah, great example coach, or dad, or whatever adult made this decision. They should be ashamed.
Who are you to judge this as weaseling out? Did Sean Green weasel out of his team commitment by not playing on Yom Kippur?

[Whiskey]

People are making a big deal that both girls lost their two actual matches by pin, so the didn't belong there. WTF?!?! They both won their way to the state tournament, defeating boys along the way.along it to the state tourney in IA is not an easy task.

I have no issues with the kid taking this stance for religious reasons. Girls and boys have been wrestling each other in many states for decades. Not sure why it is such a big deal now.

[yankeetripper]

People are making a big deal that both girls lost their two actual matches by pin, so the didn't belong there. WTF?!?! They both won their way to the state tournament, defeating boys along the way.along it to the state tourney in IA is not an easy task.

I have no issues with the kid taking this stance for religious reasons. Girls and boys have been wrestling each other in many states for decades. Not sure why it is such a big deal now.

Exactly. Just because they finished in the botton half of the field doesn't mean they were any less deserving that the other compettitors that also lost their first two matches.

The boys who don't want to wrestle the girls should just grow up.

[Whiskey]

Most everyone knows rasslin' is wildly popular in Iowa. So wouldn't it seem possible that if the school systems officially set up a girl's wrestling progam and actively promoted it that there would be a sufficient level of participants?

If there was support for girls wrestling at that level in IA, it would exist. But there is not. WA has a girls tourney, and it does not have the same level of craziness towards wrestling as IA.

[Whiskey]

The boys who don't want to wrestle the girls should just grow up.

Many churches do not believe or teach that men and women are equal(men makes church/family decisions) This attitude often finds it way onto the wrestling mat. 15+ years ago when I was in HS, many if the religious schools would forfeit all their matches to the female wrestlers. It was their choice. Not sure it is a growing up issue at all, but I way they believe issue.

[yankeetripper]

Many churches do not believe or teach that men and women are equal(men makes church/family decisions) This attitude often finds it way onto the wrestling mat. 15+ years ago when I was in HS, many if the religious schools would forfeit all their matches to the female wrestlers. It was their choice. Not sure it is a growing up issue at all, but I way they believe issue.

Those churches would be wrong :shrug:

[Whiskey]

F that. She gets in the ring, she's fair game, and he should not shy away from using any move he would use on a dude in order to win the match. I'm not saying he should be trying to hurt her or do anything illegal, but if she can't handle wrestling at its typical level of brutality, she has no place there, and there's nothing wrong with showing her that.

Both the girls that made it to the tourney earned their way their through the entire season, showing that they "have a place there".

[Whiskey]

Those churches would be wrong :shrug:

In my opinion, yes. But doesn't mean they can't keep being the way they are. They will have similar issues dealing with authoritative women in the work place. But that is for them to deal with.

[Whiskey]

BTW, the fofeit-winning girl lost her first competitive match in the tournament, and then was pinned in the consolation match so she is now out of the tournament. The boy who defaulted to her also lost his next consolation match so he's out too.

He (Northrup) won his first consolation match, then ended up exiting the tournament in the 2nd round of consolation. The same round that the girl (Heckleman) exited. I think she places higher than him based on head to head. Not sure if that is how they do it in IA, but I believe that is the way in WA.

[Whiskey]

Has this kid hurt himself out of a scholarship? Or does it really not matter because the colleges have already scouted him?
Doubt it hurts. Also doubt he has much of a chance anyway, with losing where he lost in the tourney. He is young, so still a lot of room to improve through club wrestling and his remaining years.

[Meathead]

Meathead, you missed the point completely, and you speak of that which you clearly do not know...and why did you change the subject to football? I was discussing the difference between winning a 5-entry tournament and a 16-entry tournament in a completely different sport...

IA HS wrestling is quite a big deal - arguably the best in the nation at that level - and being crowned State Champ Wrestler in Iowa is HUGE because of the quality of the competition...finding 5 girls from across the state to wrestle in a separate division is a laughable suggestion - that was my point...

DA, in regards to missing your point. I know IA HS (boys) wrestling is huge. It may even be as huge as TX h.s. football is in Texas. (no, i'm not a Texan, but places that build $30m h.s. stadiums take it seriously) I understood from your post that somehow having an IA girls wrestling state champion would tarnish the (boys) IA HS wrestling championship? To me they are clearly at different levels ... like IA h.s. football to TX h.s. football.

[DeadActorII]

No that's not what I'm saying...I am saying it would be meaningless TO THE GIRLS to have 5 of them show up and wrestle "like the boys do" because the boys thing is so huge it would never compare. The boys' tournament would not be impacted at all.

[Whiskey]

If the boys don't want girls in "their" tournament, they could just defeat them in districts. That would solve the problem.

Also, both these girls qualified for the 3A tournament, which is the large school classification in the state. Not sure how the competitive level varies between classifications in IA. But normally, the largest school classifications have the toughest competition.

[CedarTree]

Whiskey,

You've pretty much been spot on in this thread. I wrestled in Iowa and qualified for the State tourney all 4 years. I wrestled in 3A and I'm biased, but I think it's usually the best class. However, it really is fairly even for all the classes. There are a lot more schools in the lower classes since it's set up so that the total enrollment of the classes is equal (i.e. 20 schools with 40 kids in 1A is equal to 1 school with 800 kids in 3A). Therefore in theory, every kid had to beat out the same number of potential opponents, regardless of class.

Also, neither of them did well enough to place in the current format of the tourney. And it's pretty much placewinner or not-placewinner. Nobody really says this guy got 9th and this guy got 14th around here.

[Actuary321]

Same weight class, and if you are 1 or 2 in your District you go to State - IAHSAA can't do anything about it except to keep girls out of the boys' bracket, so there was absolutely no "fixing" involved by anyone at any level. Iowa is serious about wrestling - they would die on the sword if integrity came into question.

Earlier post about "separate women's division" - I doubt you'd find enough girls willing to wrestle to make a separate division that would rise to the competitive level of a State tournament.Other states have managed to find enough girls to have girls only tournaments. With how crazy wrestling is in Iowa, you would think they would be able to do it there as well.

F that. She gets in the ring, she's fair game, and he should not shy away from using any move he would use on a dude in order to win the match. I'm not saying he should be trying to hurt her or do anything illegal, but if she can't handle wrestling at its typical level of brutality, she has no place there, and there's nothing wrong with showing her that.

As far as the getting teased for losing thing, that's completely lame. The real reason for sports at the youth level is to teach character and build experience in dealing with situations. Here is an opportunity for a kid to learn that he should do the best job he can regardless of potentially embarassing consequences, and the lesson he learns instead is how to weasel out of a team commitment, while BSing a moral pretense? Yeah, great example coach, or dad, or whatever adult made this decision. They should be ashamed.The kid as certain values that make up his character and he held to those values. You may disagree with his values but that does not mean he didn't do the right thing. Nixon was able to find someone to fire the special prosecutor.

Most everyone knows rasslin' is wildly popular in Iowa. So wouldn't it seem possible that if the school systems officially set up a girl's wrestling progam and actively promoted it that there would be a sufficient level of participants?This is what Title IX did in many other sports.

If there was support for girls wrestling at that level in IA, it would exist. But there is not. WA has a girls tourney, and it does not have the same level of craziness towards wrestling as IA.
And this is the same argument that anti-Title IX people used.

I am not saying that I agree with everything that Title IX has done, but if every school in Iowa started a girls wrestling team and actively recruited and provide everything that is provided for the boys teams, within 5-10 years I think you would have a decent HS girls wrestling program in the state of Iowa.

You are aware that the US has a Women's Olympic Wrestling team.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

While wrestling is crazy in Iowa, there are still only 3 million or so people in the state.

Also, his beliefs that he should not wrestle girls implies that he doesn't think girls should wrestle in a boys' division. In short, he disapproves of their choices. How much respect should he get for his beliefs from those girls now? Or, they're saying they respect his decision, but they actually do not.

[Len Myers]

If it would be sexual assault in any other context -- which it damn well would be -- it's sexual assault in this context.

[yankeetripper]

If it would be sexual assault in any other context -- which it damn well would be -- it's sexual assault in this context.

:confused:

[Actuary321]

If it would be sexual assault in any other context -- which it damn well would be -- it's sexual assault in this context.But couldn't it be considered simple assault between members of the same sex in any other context?

[DeadActorII]

While wrestling is crazy in Iowa, there are still only 3 million or so people in the state.

Also, his beliefs that he should not wrestle girls implies that he doesn't think girls should wrestle in a boys' division. In short, he disapproves of their choices. How much respect should he get for his beliefs from those girls now? Or, they're saying they respect his decision, but they actually do not.

Yeah, you missed the point completely...

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Yeah, you missed the point completely...
Perhaps.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

If it would be sexual assault in any other context -- which it damn well would be -- it's sexual assault in this context.

But couldn't it be considered simple assault between members of the same sex in any other context?

There is a lot of grabbing of sexual parts. The whole sport endorses sexual assault. This kid should really rethink his participation in this sport.

[CedarTree]

There is a lot of grabbing of sexual parts. The whole sport endorses sexual assault. This kid should really rethink his participation in this sport.

Oh gawd. There's no grabbing of sexual parts in wrestling. There's nothing sexual about the sport at all, and the boy never mentioned anything sexual about why he didn't participate (his pastor did, and I'm guessing the pastor never wrestled in his life.)

Also, the kid cited his faith and the combative nature of the sport. I don't get the faith part, but I can varify that wrestling is very physical, pain-inducing sport. I understand his point of view, even though I disagree with it.

I think I see what you're trying to say in the context of replying to another poster, but seriously people, there's nothing sexual about wrestling.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Boy had faith issues about touching women "familiarly." I'm not up to speed on my Iowan/Pentecostal dialect. Does that mean touching a woman anywhere on her? Shaking a hand? Or touching more private places? Like a thigh?

I know wrestling is physical and pain-inducing. That's why I never wrestled. I'm more a lover than a fighter.

[Lee Mellon]

Did you ever wrestle freestyle or Greco? (I realize this isn't either)

I could see how a ball and chain would be awkward too.

No Greco-Roman. Preferred leg rides and dbl-leg takedowns. I think a guillotine would work just fine.

I don't think the kid did anything wrong either. His choice. However, if someone had put a fish in my bracket, male or female, I'd have relished the opportunity to put points up for the team and advance.

[CedarTree]

Boy had faith issues about touching women "familiarly." I'm not up to speed on my Iowan/Pentecostal dialect. Does that mean touching a woman anywhere on her? Shaking a hand? Or touching more private places? Like a thigh?

I know wrestling is physical and pain-inducing. That's why I never wrestled. I'm more a lover than a fighter.

That was the pastor who talked about touching familiarly. The boy said he didn't think it was right to engage a girl in a combative sport. As I said, I can understand where he's coming from but I disagree with it.

I'm a non-Pentecostal Iowan who has no idea what the pastor means.

Personally, I would wrestle a pack of wild dogs if that's who I drew at the state tourney.

[ditkaworshipper]

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/ffd52a3c07ab158a9db5b8006162609f90.png

[ditkaworshipper]

On a more serious note, do you guys remember being in high school? Even if you are grabbing arms and legs in a non-sexual manner, you're probably going to have some incidental contact with breasts and butts. As a high school sophomore, that's basically the equivalent of getting a lapdance.

As my friends that wrestled put it, they hated when they had to wrestle girls, and they explained that there was a "boner rule," at least in IL, because women started wrestling, and they had actually seen matches paused for this reason. This is one of the reasons why I believe most competitive sports should be single sex.

[Whiskey]

On a more serious note, do you guys remember being in high school? Even if you are grabbing arms and legs in a non-sexual manner, you're probably going to have some incidental contact with breasts and butts. As a high school sophomore, that's basically the equivalent of getting a lapdance.

As my friends that wrestled put it, they hated when they had to wrestle girls, and they explained that there was a "boner rule," at least in IL, because women started wrestling, and they had actually seen matches paused for this reason. This is one of the reasons why I believe most competitive sports should be single sex.

When I was in HS and wrestling (1993-1996), we had multiple girls on our wrestling team and wrestled many teams that had girls on both their varsity and junior varsity squad. I find it disturbing and shocking that it is now 16+ years since I was wrestling, and people are still having issues with it. I really thought we all would have been done with all this by now, but I guess some states/people are further behind than even I expected.

[BuckyBadger]

When I was in HS and wrestling (1993-1996), we had multiple girls on our wrestling team and wrestled many teams that had girls on both their varsity and junior varsity squad. I find it disturbing and shocking that it is now 16+ years since I was wrestling, and people are still having issues with it. I really thought we all would have been done with all this by now, but I guess some states/people are further behind than even I expected.

Because clearly the differences between men and women have lessened considerably in the last 16 years.

[Darth Chef]

Because clearly the differences between men and women have lessened considerably in the last 16 years.

2 points for the takedown, no reversal :judge:

[Andy The Clown]

When I was in HS and wrestling (1993-1996), we had multiple girls on our wrestling team and wrestled many teams that had girls on both their varsity and junior varsity squad. I find it disturbing and shocking that it is now 16+ years since I was wrestling, and people are still having issues with it. I really thought we all would have been done with all this by now, but I guess some states/people are further behind than even I expected.


Where were you wrestling? Here in the Chicago area , it is unheard of at HS level (very few females at grade school level) I am guessing that 16 years age there were zero girls at any level.

[gosuruss]

i had to wrestle a girl once. the fear of getting a boner and being embarrassed overrides any physical interaction you can have while wrestling a mostly unattractive girl, so it wasn't really a problem IMO.

The Herkelmans -- and most of the state of Iowa -- praised Northrup for being a boy of faith. "It's his religion and he's strong in his religion," says Megan Black, the only other girl who made state. (These were the first two in the state's history. Black lost both her matches.) "You have to respect him for that."

Why?

Does any wrong-headed decision suddenly become right when defended with religious conviction? In this age, don't we know better? If my God told me to poke the elderly with sharp sticks, would that make it morally acceptable to others?

And where does it say in the Bible not to wrestle against girls? Or compete against them? What religion forbids the two-point reversal?

-rick reilly

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=6136707

[Whiskey]

Where were you wrestling? Here in the Chicago area , it is unheard of at HS level (very few females at grade school level) I am guessing that 16 years age there were zero girls at any level.

I wrestled in Washington, one of those lefty/liberal states that now has girls tournament because their was support to have one based on the number if girls participating. Washington has twice the population of IA, which is main reason they can have five divisions at the state tournament (4 size divisions for boys, one girls division).

Weird that indiana, one of the states with a state tourney for girls is right next to IL. So it is hard to see it as a west coast/liberal vs Midwest type of thing. :shrug:

[Actuary321]

Utah has 5 divisions of high schools based on size and each division has a wrestling tournament.

From smallest to largest school size:
1A: 8 Participants
2A: 12 Participants
3A: 16 Participants
4A: 16 Participants
5A: 17 Participants

And Utah is a fairly small state (though we have more kids than average).

An interesting thing I saw at the State Tournament I went to, there was a junior who won the state title and became a 3 time state champ, but his state championships came from IL, ID and now UT. I wonder where he will go next year.

And I think rick reilly and many others kinda have it wrong. Because of his religion he is refraining from doing something. That is quite different than using your religion to justify doing something immoral.

[The Man]

Rick Reilly is a tool, just like most of the other espn columnists. :joe:

[gosuruss]

And I think rick reilly and many others kinda have it wrong. Because of his religion he is refraining from doing something. That is quite different than using your religion to justify doing something immoral.

I don't think your point is very strong.

Think about it this way.. What if this girl was a black guy. "It's against my religion to have familiar contact with one of the tainted "black" humans" I will refrain from wrestling this person."

Is this immoral? Is this okay? If this isn't okay, why is it okay to use religion to be sexist and not use it to be racist?

[gosuruss]

Rick Reilly is a tool, just like most of the other espn columnists. :joe:

He's an 11 time National Sportswriter of the Year and his column is right on.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

He's an 11 time National Sportswriter of the Year and his column is right on.
Reilly sucks now. If he wrote something about this, then it's probably wrong. Even if he's on the right side, he screwed it up.

[ditkaworshipper]

When I was in HS and wrestling (1993-1996), we had multiple girls on our wrestling team and wrestled many teams that had girls on both their varsity and junior varsity squad. I find it disturbing and shocking that it is now 16+ years since I was wrestling, and people are still having issues with it. I really thought we all would have been done with all this by now, but I guess some states/people are further behind than even I expected.
:shrug: We were raised differently. I empathize with this kid because my mom is very religious, so my household was very strict on a few things. His dad (or mom) could be making him sack the matches. Considering the best women can't beat the best men anyways, it shouldn't have to be an issue and there should be seperate (not equal) divisions.

[Meathead]

He's an 11 time National Sportswriter of the Year and his column is right on.

Which makes him the lone authority on morality how?

[gosuruss]

Which makes him the lone authority on morality how?

And my statement implies he's the lone authority on morality how?

I said he was right on, on this issue. Not that, because I think he's right on this issue, this makes him the lone authority on morals.

[DanielSong39]

I think Reilly should stick to sports and leave the theology to a more qualified writer...

[Once It Hits Your Lips]

If it's for religious reasons, wouldn't grabbing parts of same gender be more evil? Last I checked, midwest religious folk put same-sex hanky panky as a worse sin than opposite-sex hanky panky.

[Actuary321]

When I was in about 1st or 2nd grade I got in a fight with the neighbor girl and hit her. She went crying to her parents who called my parents and my dad sat me down and had a talk with me.

He said in no uncertain terms that girls/women were to be respected and that physically fighting with them would not be tolerated. As I got older I was taught rules of modesty and respect for women. Part of that dealt with types and levels of physical contact.

In wrestling with boys, I never contacted them in a way that I would have considered 'hanky panky'. That same type of contact with a girl/woman would have gone beyond the types and levels of physical contact that I had been taught that would be wrong and would have gone beyond the level of physicallity that I would have considered unacceptable violence towards females that I would not have considered unacceptable violence toward males.

But I would probably have had the same difficulty playing organized tackle HS football with girls. Though I did play coed touch football in college. It was a much, much less violent game.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

When I was in about 1st or 2nd grade I got in a fight with the neighbor girl and hit her. She went crying to her parents who called my parents and my dad sat me down and had a talk with me.

He said in no uncertain terms that girls/women were to be respected and that physically fighting with them would not be tolerated. As I got older I was taught rules of modesty and respect for women. Part of that dealt with types and levels of physical contact.

In wrestling with boys, I never contacted them in a way that I would have considered 'hanky panky'. That same type of contact with a girl/woman would have gone beyond the types and levels of physical contact that I had been taught that would be wrong and would have gone beyond the level of physicallity that I would have considered unacceptable violence towards females that I would not have considered unacceptable violence toward males.

But I would probably have had the same difficulty playing organized tackle HS football with girls. Though I did play coed touch football in college. It was a much, much less violent game.

Meh. If she hit you first, you should be able to put her in her place in 1st grade, and not have to wait until getting married (to put her barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen).

[Dr T Non-Fan]

If it's for religious reasons, wouldn't grabbing parts of same gender be more evil? Last I checked, midwest religious folk put same-sex hanky panky as a worse sin than opposite-sex hanky panky.
Brings up an interesting question: is there a boner rule for same-sex wrestling?

[Uncle Ted]

:iatp:

The idea that there is a sexual undertone in wrestling is way overplayed by people who don't know much about it, or religious fanatics like this kid. I can't ever recall thinking about sex during a match. Granted, there were no girls at my weight class, but still, there's not really any fondling involved.The guys shower together after the competition. Nothing sexual about it, I've never thought about sex while showering after sports/working out. So should this girl be showering with the guys after since there's nothing sexual about it?

[Whiskey]

The guys shower together after the competition. Nothing sexual about it, I've never thought about sex while showering after sports/working out. So should this girl be showering with the guys after since there's nothing sexual about it?

:rofl: that is very creepy.

[The Man]

So should this girl be showering with the guys after since there's nothing sexual about it?

Only as adults in the same squad like in Starship Troopers. :tup:

[DanielSong39]

Create a women's division already so we can stop arguing over this.

Then again, if that happened it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

[Len Myers]

Create a women's division already so we can stop arguing over this.

Then again, if that happened it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

they could wrestle in jello