Dirty Jim Tressel caught in another scandal

[Keep It Real, Yo]

Link or it didn't happen (the rumor, that is)

[greenman]

Rumor is tressel getting let go by end of day

Not doubting you, but just curious where you are hearing this. I haven't seen it anywhere on the interwebs.

[rawl316]

Brian baldinger reported this on 97.5 thephanatic.

[greenman]

Brian baldinger reported this on 97.5 thephanatic.

Thanks

Is he the guy with the mutiliated pinky that always freaks me out when I see him analyzing NFL stuff?

[rawl316]

It's all over twitter now. He better be right...

[rawl316]

Thanks

Is he the guy with the mutiliated pinky that always freaks me out when I see him analyzing NFL stuff?

That's the guy

[Whiskey]

Hmmm, most people seem to blowing it off saying this guy knows nothing about tOSU football.

But my research did point out that despite what twitter says, Jackid Chan is not dead.

[Wasp]

Rumor is tressel getting let go by end of day

That would be sweet. They should let Gee and Smith the AD go too.

[Wasp]

Sounds like the story of being let go was debunked:


POLL: Jim Tressel Is Probably Not Fired, But What If He Is?

by Holly Anderson • Mar 29, 2011 2:10 PM EDT

Brian Baldinger, known from coast to coast as "that FOX guy with the scary pinky," caused quite a stir on the internets today when he insinuated to Philadelphia radio station 97.5 The Fanatic that Jim Tressel was about to be fired from Ohio State for, y'know, everything. The story has since been debunked by the radio station itself, but given the NCAA's itchy trigger finger of late and Tressel's odd relationship with OSU president Gordon Gee, it does raise one crucial philosophical conundrum: What happens if, in a fit of pique, the two men attempt to fire each other?

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/3/29/2078963/jim-tressel-fired-rumors-press-conference

[Wasp]

Funny comments:

Please. Gee is just the university president. Tressel is the football coach of what is essentially an athletic department with a school.Gee should be glad Tressel let him hang around this long.

Any OSU alumni with a degree from this athletic department degree granting operation?

[Wasp]

OSU deserves a major penalty, but shrimp will fly first.

Two weeks ago when Ohio State suspended football coach Jim Tressel for the first two games of the season for committing a major rules violation, the school president was asked if firing his enormously successful coach ever crossed his mind.

"No, are you kidding me?" Ohio State President Gordon Gee said during a news conference. "I'm just hopeful that the coach doesn't dismiss me."

Though Gee was trying to be funny, to many reform-minded educators, the comment said more about the culture of big-time sports than Gee likely intended.

"As asinine as that comment was, it's not as stupid as it sounds," said David Ridpath, an assistant professor of sport administration at Ohio University and a member of the Drake Group, a national network of college professors who lobby for academic integrity in college athletics. "It was dumb, a poor attempt at humor, but I think we all know what he's really saying. Jim Tressel can have him out of office tomorrow but it would be tougher to get Jim Tressel fired."

Over the course of this academic year, as numerous high-profile programs have run afoul of NCAA rules or are currently under investigation, the call for increased presidential control seems louder then ever.

"The big point here is: Who's in charge? We've had this issue long enough, but the public is reaching the conclusion that nobody is and nobody will do anything," said William Friday, president emeritus of the University of North Carolina and former co-chairman of the watchdog Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics.

Tressel failed to notify the NCAA, his Ohio State bosses and the school's compliance department that he was aware for more than nine months that some key players, including star quarterback Terrelle Pryor, sold championship rings, jerseys and awards to the owner of a Columbus tattoo parlor.

In December, the NCAA suspended five Buckeyes players for the first five games of the 2011 season. Last Thursday, when the NCAA denied Ohio State's appeal on behalf of the players, the school announced that Tressel added three games to his suspension. "My mistakes need to share the same game sanctions," the coach said in a statement.

CAMPUS RIVALRY: Tressel asks for five-game suspension

Though many viewed the gesture as a shrewd public relations move after an onslaught of criticism, others wondered if it might mitigate possible NCAA sanctions.

Ohio State certainly isn't alone, given that scandals were a major subplot this past year. Auburn and Oregon, which played in the Bowl Championship Series national title game, are being investigated for football recruiting issues. North Carolina's football team spent the season embroiled in an agent scandal. Tennessee basketball coach Bruce Pearl admitted he lied to NCAA investigators and was fired Monday. After sidestepping harsh penalties for recruiting violations, Connecticut will play San Diego State in the Sweet 16 on Thursday.

CAMPUS RIVALRY: Tennessee fires coach Bruce Pearl

Viewed through this lens, Gee's off-handed remark seems that much more inappropriate, said Hodding Carter, a professor of public policy at North Carolina and a former member of the Knight Commission.

"I realize now why I had my doubts about trusting presidents with the responsibility," Carter said. "Of course the comment was in jest. The problem was it was in the context of him standing tall."

When asked last week to clarify his remark, Gee declined, through a university spokesman.

The last time he drew attention for a comment was December, when he criticized schedules of football teams outside the major conferences, saying, "We do not play the Little Sisters of the Poor."

The power of money

Gee is the highest-paid public university president in the country, earning more than $1 million, according to The Chronicle of Higher Education. He oversees the largest athletic department in the country, one with a budget well over $100 million a year. Tressel is one of the nation's highest-paid football coaches, earning close to $4 million last year and winning seven Big Ten titles and a national title in the 2002 season.

Two years ago, the Knight Commission surveyed nearly half the presidents of Bowl Subdivision schools. Those interviewed said they wanted "serious change" but felt powerless to enact such change. In the report, presidents said athletics departments' reliance on outside sources of income such as large TV rights contracts "have diminished presidents' authority over athletics and their ability to influence reform."

Todd Turner was the athletics director at Vanderbilt under Gee. In 2003, Gee reassigned Turner and folded the athletic program into the office of student affairs. The move established Gee's reputation as a radical reformer. He returned in 2007 to Ohio State, where he had served as president from 1990 to 1997.

Turner has served as an athletics director at schools in four of the six major conferences and now runs Collegiate Sports Associates, assisting schools with the hiring of athletics directors and coaches. Given his background, he knows plenty about the landscape of college sports.

"I've never seen more concern on the part of presidents, particularly presidents that are not at schools like Ohio State, Texas and Florida," Turner said. "They're looking at one another and saying, 'We can't keep up.' They're also powerless to do something about it. It's a very precarious position."
What's next for Ohio State?

Amid this investigation, athletics director Gene Smith was also chair of the NCAA Division I basketball committee. He has declined to comment about the football situation since Tressel's suspension was announced March 8.

According to The Columbus Dispatch, since 2006, the NCAA has sanctioned 27 schools for violating bylaw 10.1, which requires coaches and others to be truthful and forthcoming about possible violations. Of the 12 coaches involved, one kept his job. The others resigned or were fired.

Tressel violated the same bylaw when he failed to notify Ohio State about the information he received. Tressel's contract stipulates that he must disclose potential violations. He also signed an NCAA disclosure form in September that he was unaware of any violations.

However, he had exchanged e-mails last spring with a Columbus lawyer who informed him of the benefits the players had received.

Throughout his team's 12-1 season, Tressel said he didn't tell anyone because he felt bound by confidentiality, since the tattoo parlor owner was the subject of a federal drug-trafficking investigation. He said he was concerned for his players' safety. He has since apologized.

Speaking generally about NCAA infractions and not specifically about Ohio State, Jo Potuto, a Nebraska law professor and former chair of the NCAA Committee on Infractions, said when information is received by someone who represents a university, his first responsibility is to notify appropriate officials.

"I don't know what went on at Ohio State," Potuto said. "I can only say that if I received confidential information, I would feel an obligation to share it with my chancellor and maybe with the general counsel of the university. Because I act for the university."

This week, Ohio State's top-seeded basketball team plays for a spot in the Final Four. Next week, spring football practice begins, kicking off a season of uncertainty. The coach and quarterback will be benched for the first five games, but what lies beyond is unclear.

After spending years pushing for reform during involvement with the Knight Commission, Carter is jaded by it all.

"I expect shrimp to fly before I expect the NCAA to inflict a major penalty," Carter said about Ohio State. "I do not expect it to happen, and it should."

[Wasp]

link of above
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/2011-03-22-ohio-state-presidential-debate_N.htm

[Actuary321]

They could suspend him for the season. They could I think even suspend him permanently which seems like firing to me.Precedent would not allow them to do much more than what tOSU has already done. Any thing like what you are suggesting nearly certainly be overturned on appeal.

[Whiskey]

Precedent would not allow them to do much more than what tOSU has already done. Any thing like what you are suggesting nearly certainly be overturned on appeal.

:-? Really? Everyone who has been caught lying to the NCAA like this has been fired by their school. There really is no precedent for a school trying to keep a coach who has done this.

[MY$.02]

tressal is a dirt bag skeez

[Actuary321]

:-? Really? Everyone who has been caught lying to the NCAA like this has been fired by their school. There really is no precedent for a school trying to keep a coach who has done this.Wasp said the NCAA should fire him and suggested a couple of things they could do which would be virtually the same as the NCAA firing him. I was pointing out that there is virtually nothing the NCAA could do, because of prior NCAA precedent, that would be tantamount to the NCAA firing him.

Every coach that was separated from their school for these type of infractions either resigned or was fired by their school. Gee has already said he will not fire Tressel over this, and Tressel doesn't seem prepared to resign and based on Gee's comments, I am not sure he would accept Tressel's resignation.

[MY$.02]

tOSU will be charged with a lack of institutional control and tressal will be fired.

[General_Hodge_Podge]

i heard tressel will be forced to dress as the wolverine mascot for the entire season. even during press conferences and practices.

sorry no link. came to me in a dream.

[Meathead]

tOSU will be charged with a lack of institutional control and tressal will be fired.

You won't see that phrase used for any major football/basketball program after that way SMU was destroyed. The one possible exception may be Auburn once the true size of that iceberg is discovered.

i heard tressel will be forced to dress as the wolverine mascot for the entire season. even during press conferences and practices.

sorry no link. came to me in a dream.

Wolverines don't have a mascot, so the Vest will have to dress as a loud, plain-looking overweight co-ed from New York.

[Whiskey]

Wasp said the NCAA should fire him and suggested a couple of things they could do which would be virtually the same as the NCAA firing him. I was pointing out that there is virtually nothing the NCAA could do, because of prior NCAA precedent, that would be tantamount to the NCAA firing him.

Every coach that was separated from their school for these type of infractions either resigned or was fired by their school. Gee has already said he will not fire Tressel over this, and Tressel doesn't seem prepared to resign and based on Gee's comments, I am not sure he would accept Tressel's resignation.

I was trying to say that the NCAA can easily do more than what tOSU has done. You were saying the NCAA can't, based on precedent. There is no precedent for this. The NCAA could easily suspend him for more games and/or restrict his ability to recruit. They have restricted coaches ability to restrict in the past. Not head coaches, but they have done it to assistant coaches. Don't see why the couldn't do it here.

[Whiskey]

You won't see that phrase used for any major football/basketball program after that way SMU was destroyed. The one possible exception may be Auburn once the true size of that iceberg is discovered.




I think you might be confused with your history. The phrase in question has been used to level punishments many times over the past 20 years (not at the SMU level, but still punishment). The UW Huskies and USC are two teams that come to mind.

No one (except maybe wasp) is saying that tOSU deserves the "death penalty" like SMU. However, there is a huge range of things that will fall under the spectrum of "lack of institutional control". Hardly any of them are at the SMU corruption level.

[egg]

They could issue a 'show-cause' against Tressel, which is tantamount to firing him.

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/03/30/11/Attorney-Could-get-much-worse-for-Tresse/landing_ohiostate.html?blockID=493685&feedID=3725

[Whiskey]

They could issue a 'show-cause' against Tressel, which is tantamount to firing him.

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/03/30/11/Attorney-Could-get-much-worse-for-Tresse/landing_ohiostate.html?blockID=493685&feedID=3725
Interesting article. Of course that is a lawyer who is trying to get his name out there. But the fact that this is in the five year window of the O'Brien violations will probable end up being a big deal in the end.

[Whiskey]

My guess is that he coaches the 7 games plus a bowl game in 2011. After the season he gets hit with a pretty big penalty (and tOSU with a smaller penalty because of lack of institutional control). Tressel then retires in a hissy fit as a martyr just like Don James did at Washington in the mid '90s.

[Meathead]

I think you might be confused with your history. The phrase in question has been used to level punishments many times over the past 20 years (not at the SMU level, but still punishment). The UW Huskies and USC are two teams that come to mind.

No one (except maybe wasp) is saying that tOSU deserves the "death penalty" like SMU. However, there is a huge range of things that will fall under the spectrum of "lack of institutional control". Hardly any of them are at the SMU corruption level.

You are correct sir - my bad

[Actuary321]

I was trying to say that the NCAA can easily do more than what tOSU has done. You were saying the NCAA can't, based on precedent. There is no precedent for this. The NCAA could easily suspend him for more games and/or restrict his ability to recruit. They have restricted coaches ability to restrict in the past. Not head coaches, but they have done it to assistant coaches. Don't see why the couldn't do it here.Would they put recruiting restrictions based on these violations? I don't remember hearing of any recruiting restrictions being placed on coaches because of violations somehow involving recruiting, though I could be mistaken.

[Whiskey]

Would they put recruiting restrictions based on these violations? I don't remember hearing of any recruiting restrictions being placed on coaches because of violations somehow involving recruiting, though I could be mistaken.

Former USC running back coach Todd McNair got the "show cause" treatment following the Reggie Bush crap. The ruling against him was that he should have known about the violations, didn't report his suspicions and was not honest and forthcoming with the NCAA (there is more, but that sums it up). According to the articles that I have read, the 1year "show cause" penalty he received restricted him from having ANY contacts with recruits for one year. USC chose not to renew his contract for the 2010 season, so he was not technically fired for this.

McNair was not punished for actually aiding Bush in his shenanigans or actually any violations with the exception of lying and not being forthcoming to the NCAA about what the NCAA determined should have been clearly an ineligible player being part of the team. This closely parallels the details of the Tressel situation, with the clear difference of the severity of the underlying violation that was covered up.

If Tressel gets the "Show Cause" punishment, I believe he will be also restricted from having contact with recruits for the length of the punishment.

[Wasp]

No one (except maybe wasp) is saying that tOSU deserves the "death penalty" like SMU.

I don't think the death penalty is warranted for OSU. But I think Tressel should be fired. Also, Gee and Smith should be fired for not taking the rule breaking seriously. What a lack of institutional control.

[Wasp]

A two-year NCAA investigation found that player Boban Savovic had received improper benefits and committed academic fraud while he played for Ohio State. On March 10, 2006, the NCAA gave Ohio State three years' probation and ordered it to pay back all tournament money earned from 1999–2002 when Boban Savovic was on the Buckeyes' roster. In addition, Ohio State had to remove all references to team accomplishments from those years including a 1999 visit to the Final Four.

Too bad the three years probation expired in 1999.

[egg]

Too bad the three years probation expired in 1999.

Is it 3 years? The link above said it is 5 years probation.

[Wasp]

Is it 3 years? The link above said it is 5 years probation.

A two-year NCAA investigation found that player Boban Savovic had received improper benefits and committed academic fraud while he played for Ohio State. On March 10, 2006, the NCAA gave Ohio State three years' probation and ordered it to pay back all tournament money earned from 1999–2002 when Boban Savovic was on the Buckeyes' roster. In addition, Ohio State had to remove all references to team accomplishments from those years including a 1999 visit to the Final Four.

I saw three years, where did you see 5? It happened in 2004, so maybe in 2006 after investigating they gave 3 more for a total of 5, but I'm just making up numbers now.

[egg]

They could issue a 'show-cause' against Tressel, which is tantamount to firing him.

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/03/30/11/Attorney-Could-get-much-worse-for-Tresse/landing_ohiostate.html?blockID=493685&feedID=3725

I saw three years, where did you see 5? It happened in 2004, so maybe in 2006 after investigating they gave 3 more for a total of 5, but I'm just making up numbers now.

This link said it was 5.

[Wasp]

This link said it was 5.

That link says it is within a 5 year window and by definition that means OSU is classified as a repeat offender. That's good. Penalties should be more severe. The other link, however, says they were only on probation for 3 years. That's too bad.

But I'm not sure about the 5 year time line. Obrien was found out in 2004, penalty was issued in 2006. If 5 years from infraction then 2004 + 5 is 2009. Window closed. Can they measure from finding/punishment in 2006 until 2011? If so good. Tressel ruling might not happen until 2012. Why wait? Fire him now.

[Actuary321]

Ha Ha!! (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110419/ap_on_sp_co_ne/fbc_ohio_st_ncaa)

His fine won't even cover the cost of the schools investigation.

:shake:

And it sounds like they had to force him to give his public apology.

[Wasp]

Seems like he should forfeit his salary for the games he is suspended. Five games with no salary. Being suspended with pay is like a paid vacation. What kind of penalty is that?

[JUICE]

Seems like he should forfeit his salary for the games he is suspended. Five games with no salary. Being suspended with pay is like a paid vacation. What kind of penalty is that?

No kidding. It's like packaging trash mortgages into securities, misrepresenting those mortgages, betting against them at the same time as you push them to clients, and then getting "bailed out" when the SHTF.

[greenman]

Don't know if this means anything in the grand scheme, but the NCAA sent a "notice of allegations" to OSU.

Some snippets (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6424573)

The NCAA, in a notice of allegations to the Ohio State school president last week, says football coach Jim Tressel was not honest after discovering his players were selling autographs, uniforms, championship rings and other memorabilia for money and tattoos.

The incident, which resulted in a self-imposed school fine of $250,000 and a five-game suspension for Tressel, could be considered a second offense when the NCAA hands down any discipline, according to the notice, which was delivered Friday to president Gordon Gee.

The NCAA says Tressel "falsely attested" that he reported all knowledge of NCAA violations to the school.

The report also cites previous violations involving former quarterback Troy Smith, who received $500 from a booster and former men's basketball coach Jim O'Brien, who gave $6,000 to a recruit.

NCAA rules state second-time violators face postseason levies, coaching-staff suspensions and a loss of scholarships.

Ohio State must go before the NCAA's committee on infractions Aug. 12.

Absent from the notice was mention of a "failure to monitor" or "failure of institutional control," the most serious violations that historically have resulted in the worst penalties for programs.

"That was very significant," a source close to the investigation told The Columbus Dispatch on Monday.

[Actuary321]

This is probably the most important part.
Absent from the notice was mention of a "failure to monitor" or "failure of institutional control," the most serious violations that historically have resulted in the worst penalties for programs.This means nothing serious will happen to them.

[greenman]

Two national college football reporter's responces to the NCAA's notice of allegations:

Stewart Mandel (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/04/25/ohio-state-tressel-ncaa/index.html?eref=sihp):

What has been whispered for nearly two months took a significant step toward becoming reality Monday: Jim Tressel's tenure at Ohio State is numbered. It may even be over before the end of the calendar year.

Pat Forde (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=6425516):

Jim Tressel is a big deal.

Big salary. Big reputation. Big winning percentage (.828 at Ohio State, second-best in Big Ten history for coaches with 10 or more years in the league, trailing only Fielding H. Yost).

He is not, however, bigger than Ohio State. Which is why the school should terminate its star football coach before it responds in the coming months to the NCAA notice of allegations that was made public Monday.

[Actuary321]

I seriously doubt it will be by the end of the calendar year unless tOSU doesn't go to a New Year's Day or beyond bowl.

Well, I guess he could resign effective after the end of the season, bowl game included.

[Whiskey]

Most recent information from Columbus Dispatch (?) is showing text messages from last summer between Tressel and many others (including Pryor) discussing the violation. I seriously doubt he will coach this season or ever again at tOSU.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

Kirk Herbstreit: Ohio State should "quit recruiting players like Maurice Clarett and Terrelle Pryor."

:yikes:

Good thing he already moved away from Columbus.

[Italian Halibut]

FAIL

I should tell my local Christian bookstore to pull his books on integrity and leadership...

[Wasp]

How badly will this end for dirty scum bag Tressel? How much does the bullet proof squeaky clean image sweater vest protect you when the bullet of shame hits you squarely in the temple? Does tOSU have any pride and self-respect left? Can he really get away with lying and cheating with little consequences? Is tOSU a university that instills values in graduates anymore or is it just a football factory that places winning over character? Will Tressel fire the dean and athletic director or will they fire him?

[Meathead]

And yet, he's cleaner than Auburn and probably no worse than LSU, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, ... (except Vandy)

[Wasp]

And yet, he's cleaner than Auburn and probably no worse than LSU, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, ... (except Vandy)

Based on what, your bias maybe? What do you think Auburn did wrong? I wasn't aware Auburn were even being investigated. So you think the NCAA is just persecuting Tressel because he's a nice guy? LOL. No wonder you go by meathead. Tressel broke rules at youngstown, Maurice Clarett, Pryor, Troy Smith, AND they broke rules in basketball. Sounds like an utter lack of institutional control to me.

[Wasp]

The cover up:

The heart of the matter is that Ohio St. won 12 games last year including the Sugar Bowl. They did so with key players, with their coaches knowledge,who were ineligible. That’s not a minor violation folks, that’s not an oops. Sounds to me like there is a “lack of institutional control” at The Ohio State University.

Then again this isn’t new behavior for Tressel, he has spent his career acting clueless about his programs repeated NCAA violations. From his days at Youngstown State to Maurice Clarett and Troy Smith, Tressel has managed to remain oblivious to the fact that his star players have been getting paid for over a decade, and he wants you to think he was just confused.

The difference this time around, is Tressel has been caught in the cover up. The cover up is always worse than the crime, exhibit A: Richard Nixon, exhibit B: Bill Clinton.

The cover up:

1. September 13, 2010, Tressel signed a document that said he was not aware of NCAA violations.
2. He failed to tell school officials on Dec. 9, 2010 about emails he received in April explaining players’ involvement in selling memorabilia.
3. He failed to tell school officials about the emails – or his knowledge of players selling memorabilia — when specifically asked on Dec. 16, 2010. He also misled school officials that day when stating he “did not recall from whom he received the tip,” and that he “did not know that any items had been siezed.

In what could be the nail in the coffin, during a February 8, 2011 interview, Tressel said it was “inevitable” that players named in the email had committed NCAA violations and would be ruled ineligible. Howerver, Tressel knew the players were ineligible and had played them anyway.

That sounds to me like a man who knew exactly what he was doing. Not a man who was confused or afraid of interfering with a federal investigation. No matter what you believe was the reason for Tressle committing the violations, the fact is he committed them, and then attempted to cover them up. The admission of those violations, and cover up, jeopardize Ohio State’s 12 victories from the 2010 season including the Sugar Bowl. It also lays the ground work for more serious sanctions from the NCAA.

Now that Tressel has admitted to lying about the emails and misleading university investigators, the NCAA has a frame work to bring ‘lack of institutional control charges’ against The Ohio State University.

http://www.edaveryreport.com/college-football/jim-tressel-cheated-again/

[DanielSong39]

I concede that Tressel has been a dirty cheat.

However, he's no dirtier than the coaches at SEC schools and less dirty than Pete Carroll. Plus, he looks good in a sweater.

I say let the guy keep coaching.

[tommie frazier]

he is likely to get the bruce pearl treatment. you can't lie to the investigators, or swear all is ok, and then have it come out that you knew it wasn't a-ok.

[Whiskey]

I concede that Tressel has been a dirty cheat.

However, he's no dirtier than the coaches at SEC schools and less dirty than Pete Carroll. Plus, he looks good in a sweater.

I say let the guy keep coaching.

No one who has lied to NCAA like this has been allowed to "just keep coaching". You can apply the moral relativism argument that he isn't as bad as SEC coaches that are still coaching. But that is based on your (and most people's) opinion and not on fact. The NCAA is investigating this and will punish Tressel based on facts, not opinions.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

I concede that Tressel has been a dirty cheat.

However, he's no dirtier than the coaches at SEC schools and less dirty than Pete Carroll. Plus, he looks good in a sweater.

I say let the guy keep coaching.

No one who has lied to NCAA like this has been allowed to "just keep coaching". You can apply the moral relativism argument that he isn't as bad as SEC coaches that are still coaching. But that is based on your (and most people's) opinion and not on fact. The NCAA is investigating this and will punish Tressel based on facts, not opinions.

I agree with the first two lines of Daniel's post.

They are all dirty. But you still have to punish those that get caught or it goes from "dirty" to a "free-for-all clusterf*ck"

[Big Pete]

They are all dirty. But you still have to punish those that get caught or it goes from "dirty" to a "free-for-all clusterf*ck"

:iatp:

For me, the biggest reason I think they guy needs a severe punishment is this part from wasp's link:
"1. September 13, 2010, Tressel signed a document that said he was not aware of NCAA violations." combined with the understanding that he was actually aware of the issues well before that.

Isn't there some coach's membership group that this should be a violation of? I seem to remember something about Kelvin Sampson having headed up something like that, then later getting busted for knowingly breaking some rules.

[Agadefe]

The NCAA is trying too hard to undermine the status quo imo.

The corrupt system is able to maintain itself because the NCAA turns a blind eye (or gives a slap on the hand) to stuff like this. The minute they start doling out serious punishments, it's just going to make people concentrate more on how the NCAA is making millions of dollars off of players that aren't even allowed to sell memorabilia? We'll see what happens though.

[greenman]

Here is how I look at it:

Strike 1 - Not telling the school when he found out about it last spring, but instead talking to Pryor's "mentor" (and possibly others).

Strike 2 - Signing the NCAA form in September stating that he knew of no violations.

Strike 3 - When the Tat 5 news came out in December, Tressel still contended that he knew nothing about it, lying once again to the NCAA.

Adding all of that together, he knowingly played ineligible players and lied TWICE to the NCAA.

[I'll Call]

Here is how I look at it:

Strike 1 - Not telling the school when he found out about it last spring, but instead talking to Pryor's "mentor" (and possibly others).

Strike 2 - Signing the NCAA form in September stating that he knew of no violations.

Strike 3 - When the Tat 5 news came out in December, Tressel still contended that he knew nothing about it, lying once again to the NCAA.

Adding all of that together, he knowingly played ineligible players and lied TWICE to the NCAA.

3 Strikes...:party:

[DanielSong39]

Having witnessed Convicts U. (University of Miami), Free Shoes University (FSU), Lawrence Phillips saga (Nebraska), academic fraud (Tennessee), Maurice Clarett saga (Ohio St.), Reggie Bush saga (USC), and $cam Newton (Auburn), I can only conclude that there are no moral standards in college football and punishment is minimal to nonexistent even if you get caught.

If you never punish anyone for any reason, we can at least agree that there is a consistent standard. It can't be too much worse than the hypocrisy we're seeing from the NCAA these days.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

Having witnessed Convicts U. (University of Miami), Free Shoes University (FSU), Lawrence Phillips saga (Nebraska), academic fraud (Tennessee), Maurice Clarett saga (Ohio St.), Reggie Bush saga (USC), and $cam Newton (Auburn), I can only conclude that there are no moral standards in college football and punishment is minimal to nonexistent even if you get caught.

If you never punish anyone for any reason, we can at least agree that there is a consistent standard. It can't be too much worse than the hypocrisy we're seeing from the NCAA these days.

The punishment that bothers me the most is lost scholarships.

Said best here:

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/preview2010/insider/news/story?id=5784053

Following a highly publicized investigation concerning alleged recruiting violations, the Connecticut Huskies self-sanctioned their men's basketball program during the offseason. They placed the team on probation, limited recruiting by coaches, and took away two scholarships over the next two seasons. While it's hard to say just how much the probation and limited recruiting will affect UConn in the long run (or if the NCAA will tack on more penalties), I'd argue the loss of scholarships won't have much of an effect on the team. This is because -- more often than not with these cases -- taking away one scholarship per year does nothing to punish the program or people who actually committed the violations. Instead it places the punishment on players who are the furthest removed from the infractions -- the ones sitting at the end of the bench. I know, because it happened to me.

During two years of my walk-on career at Ohio State, I was lucky enough to be given a full-ride scholarship. I was Greg Oden's longtime friend and coach Thad Matta wanted to do whatever it took to make Greg happy. Unfortunately, following my junior year our basketball program was sanctioned because we fell short of a few of the NCAA's academic benchmarks. Most of the problem was rooted in the fact that my teammates and predecessors at Ohio State were knuckleheads who didn't get the job done in the classroom -- but the problem was magnified after a few of my teammates went to the NBA early and withdrew from classes after the university deadline. They had to stay enrolled in classes to be eligible for our games, but our seasons never ended before the withdrawal deadline. It may be more of a flawed system than negligence on their part, still, withdrawing meant that they automatically flunked all their classes, which crippled our team's academic standing.

Because of this, our program was forced to give up two scholarships, limiting our total scholarship count to 11. I was the 12th guy on the roster. As a result, any potential of me being awarded a scholarship for my senior year was gone; all because guys who had multi-million-dollar contracts waiting for them in the NBA understandably placed more emphasis on their careers than Sociology 101 lectures.

Let me make this one part clear: I would never suggest that I was entitled to a scholarship or that I was legitimately upset with our coaching staff over this incident. That would be both foolish and selfish. I knew what I was getting into when I signed up to be a walk-on and I'm eternally grateful to have a scholarship for the two years I did. But when our entire basketball program was supposed to be reprimanded, I couldn't help but think of how, in the grand scheme of things, I was the only one who was really losing out.

After my experience at Ohio State, I realized that the NCAA or a school's compliance office punishing a basketball program for violations by taking away scholarships makes as much sense to me as a high school principal suspending a student from school for truancy. The truth is, most teams need only eight or nine scholarships for the guys that regularly see the court and maybe two or three for underclassmen on the bench that could become better players over time. This means that teams realistically need anywhere from 10-12 scholarships, despite the fact that the NCAA allows for up to 13.

Obviously some teams choose to recruit more guys and use all the scholarships, but it's also not uncommon for coaches to give any of the leftover scholarships to a walk-on, especially if the walk-on is a senior in his fourth year with the team. In fact, through playing at Ohio State and getting to know walk-ons from all over the country, I've discovered that a majority of guys are awarded a scholarship for at least one year of their four-year careers -- so not only is the practice of giving walk-ons scholarships common, it might actually be the norm.

But when the time comes for a school to forfeit a scholarship, coaches are always going to hang the guys on the bottom of the totem pole out to dry, which means the walk-ons are the ones who are left out of luck. Instead of punishing a coaching staff or basketball program in a way that will make them learn from their mistakes and not want to ever commit the same violations again, the NCAA and the school's compliance office are basically telling coaches that a big part of their punishment is not being able to give a leftover scholarship to a deserving walk-on. My guess is that most of them are perfectly fine with this punishment.

In UConn's case, Kyle Bailey is the senior walk-on that could have been given a scholarship this year. At the start of the school year, Bailey was the 13th man on the roster, which means that he could have received the scholarship that UConn forfeited (Ater Majok has since left the team, but under NCAA rules his scholarship cannot be transferred to another player). Instead, he'll be forced to pay his way through another year of school simply because the Connecticut compliance department was trying to get through to Jim Calhoun and his coaching staff. I'll let you decide who is really getting punished here.

It should be noted that despite interviewing Bailey for a previous story I wrote, in no way did he have anything to do with this writing. I'm just empathizing with him because I went through a similar situation myself. It's an unfortunate reality in college basketball that needs to be fixed. While an entire package of sanctions could be enough to deter coaches from violating rules in the future, the fact remains that taking a scholarship away really only affects the walk-ons, and that simply isn't right.

[greenman]

Having witnessed Convicts U. (University of Miami), Free Shoes University (FSU), Lawrence Phillips saga (Nebraska), academic fraud (Tennessee), Maurice Clarett saga (Ohio St.), Reggie Bush saga (USC), and $cam Newton (Auburn), I can only conclude that there are no moral standards in college football and punishment is minimal to nonexistent even if you get caught.

Being a Husker, I must point out that every one of those instances except for Lawerence Phillips involed a (potential) NCAA violation. Phillips was a criminal case, and he was suspended for 7 or 8 games. I'm not defending Phillips and I think Osborne should not have let him back on the team, I'm just saying that's not the same thing as the others.

Miami - pell grants fraud w/ plenty of criminal behavior, but the pell grants got them the big probation.
FSU - special benfits
Tennessee - academic fraud
Clarett - academic fraud and special benefit
Bush - special benefits
Newton - pay for play

[Wasp]

The punishment that bothers me the most is lost scholarships.

Said best here:

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/preview2010/insider/news/story?id=5784053

The problem is, they should tweak the scholarship penalty. But for one thing, I don't really care about the walk on. Frankly, all the positions should be walk ons. It's stupid to give people scholarships for athletics. Athletic programs should be for students, not mercenaries.

But fine, they could tweak the penalty program. If a team needs to be punished, then forbid them from giving any scholarships to freshman or JUCO transfers. Don't let them take away the walk on scholarship to give it to a one and done future NBA player. I agree the punishment should actually punish the coach and program and not be a slap that only hurts the guy at the end of the bench. No one cares about punishing the sorry hanger on like Sheba.

[Wasp]

I concede that Tressel has been a dirty cheat.

However, he's no dirtier than the coaches at SEC schools and less dirty than Pete Carroll. Plus, he looks good in a sweater.

I say let the guy keep coaching.

I agree Pete Carroll was dirty. That's partly why he ran away to the NFL because his time was up too. As for your nebulous SEC accusations, got any proof for that? There is no evidence Auburn did anything wrong with Cam Newton. If there was real evidence that Newton were like Pryor or Clarett or Troy Smith, then Auburn would be punished too. You can't just throw out accusations with no proof. There's hard and fast evidence that Tressel has been a dirty cheat for a long time. It's about time he did the time for the multiple crimes.

[Actuary321]

Having witnessed Convicts U. (University of Miami), Free Shoes University (FSU), Lawrence Phillips saga (Nebraska), academic fraud (Tennessee), Maurice Clarett saga (Ohio St.), Reggie Bush saga (USC), and $cam Newton (Auburn), I can only conclude that there are no moral standards in college football and punishment is minimal to nonexistent even if you get caught.

If you never punish anyone for any reason, we can at least agree that there is a consistent standard. It can't be too much worse than the hypocrisy we're seeing from the NCAA these days.The problem is the NCAA does not have subpoena power and lying to them is not a violation of the law.

It takes someone willing to talk and/or with not much more to lose and corroboration to prove the case.

If you saw the 30 for 30 SMU episode, you saw that even with the kid telling the NCAA investigator everything, the fact that no one else would talk basically stopped the investigation until the kid gave the investigator the envelope that the coach used to pay him with.

As long as no one talks or everyone's stories match up, there is no proof for the NCAA to base a punishment on.

[Wasp]

I don't blame Art Schlichter, he was schooled at Ohio State.

Ex-Ohio State, NFL player indicted in theft case
The Associated Press
Posted: 04/29/2011 06:07:49 PM PDT
Updated: 04/29/2011 06:07:52 PM PDT

COLUMBUS, Ohio—A grand jury has indicted former Ohio State and NFL player Art Schlichter (SHLEES'-tur) on 13 felony counts.

The Columbus Dispatch reported the indictment on 12 counts of theft and one count of engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity is linked to a million-dollar ticket-selling scheme.

The charges allege the 51-year-old Schlichter and unnamed associates bilked people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Defense attorney Sam Shamansky says the indictment was expected and doesn't eliminate the possibility of a plea deal.

Schlichter played at Ohio State between 1978 and 1981, and in the NFL for the Baltimore and Indianapolis Colts and the Buffalo Bills. His career was derailed by a gambling addiction, and he went to prison for gambling-related crimes.

[Actuary321]

Delany (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/04/delany-would-not-support-tressel-sugar-bowl-/1) say he probably would have not supported letting tOSU players play in Sugar Bowl.

So what is he going to be saying when the NCAA gives Tressel a 'show cause' order?

[ditkaworshipper]

:link: (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6499662)
Uh Oh...
Report: Ohio State faces more scrutiny

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Ohio State's director of compliance is reviewing at least 50 car sales to Buckeyes athletes and relatives to see if they met NCAA rules, The Columbus Dispatch reported Saturday.

The newspaper reported that a salesman who received game passes from Ohio State athletes handled many of the deals at two different dealerships. Ohio State has since taken the salesman, Aaron Kniffin, off the pass list.

Athletes are prevented from receiving special deals not available to other students. They are not permitted to trade autographs for discounts. Both dealerships display signed Ohio State memorabilia in their showrooms.

One car, a 2-year-old Chrysler 300 with fewer than 20,000 miles, was titled to then-sophomore defensive player Thaddeus Gibson in 2009. Documents show the purchase price as $0. Gibson said he did not know why the title showed a zero for the purchase price and said he was still paying for the car.

State law requires dealers to report accurate information about all car sales for tax purposes.

School officials have seen no evidence of players getting special treatment in vehicle sales, Douglas Archie, associate athletic director for compliance, said in a statement Saturday.

"Consistent with our standard procedures, we are nevertheless reviewing these sales to assure ourselves that our policies were adhered to," he said.

Quarterback Terrelle Pryor's mother and brother also purchased cars from the dealerships. Kniffin loaned his own car to Pryor for a three-day test drive to Pryor's home in Jeannette, Pa.

Kniffin and the owner of one of the dealerships he worked for, Jason Goss, have attended seven football games as guests of players, including the 2007 national championship game and the 2009 Fiesta Bowl.

Ohio State already has five players -- including Pryor -- serving five-game suspensions for accepting improper benefits from a tattoo parlor. The NCAA is investigating coach Jim Tressel, also suspended for five games, for knowing about the benefits but not telling superiors.

[Whiskey]

:lol:

[willel2338]

I have a few thoughts:



Jim Tressel is a liar and a cheat. I guess I can buy that. But, what are we really talking about here?

The extra benefits the players took are minimal. They got some ink for selling belongings which they legally owned. Five games for that seems crazy, but at least its consistent when compared to what AJ Green and Dez Bryant got.

I have a hard time reconciling the fact that such minor benefits merit a large suspension when there are so many players who break the law and put other people in danger, yet end up with no suspension or 1-2 games, max. How many players get DUI during the season? In some countries, DUI is a capital offense. If convicted, one gets the death penalty! How many players get cited for disorderly conduct when it should have been felonious assault or negligent driving when it should have been DUI, etc.?

The NCAA's punishment model is specious at best and wholly unjust at worst. In a Machiavellian sense, is Tressel attempting to protect his players from that crappy system really all that bad?! I'd argue he's guilty of bad judgment, but I'm apt to believe him that he was trying to do the right thing.



I want to know more about Terrelle Pryor's "mentor" Mr. Ted Sarniak. I also want to know more about what Herbstreit meant when he said, "[Ohio State should] quit recruiting players like Maurice Clarett and Terrelle Pryor." Herbie is plugged in to college football and he certainly has [or had] connections with OSU.

The cynic in me wants to say that Pryor and Clarett were both paid to play just like Cam Newton and Reggie Bush, but that's impossible for me to prove. After Josh Luchs' report failed to make headlines nothing would really surprise me.



"Lack of Institutional Control" wouldn't have made any sense nor would "Failure to Monitor"...

At least Ohio State has a huge compliance office and they evidently have the appropriate forms and the the right policies in place. This was not institutional. This appears to be one man acting outside the boundaries.

As such, firing Tressel before responding to the NCAA should alleviate and possibly eliminate any penalties the school might face.



A mouse on a wheel could win 10+ games at Ohio State. It's an easy conference, they don't have to compete too hard for local talent and they have a strong recruiting base that connects all the way to Florida/Georgia and New Jersey/Pennsylvania. Other than some misplaced sense of loyalty for previous accomplishments, is there a reason to keep Tressel?

Further, when looking at Tressel's rosters, his 2002 Buckeyes put more players in the NFL than any of his other teams [and the vast majority of them weren't even his recruits]. Thus, the only championship he ever won was largely with someone else's players! And, I'd argue the only reason they won that championship upset was because:



Larry Coker was incompetent.
Willis McGahee suffered a freak injury right as he was starting to carve up the OSU D-Line
The Back Judge through a curiously late flag for pass interference/holding.



In short: Regardless of whether any of this NCAA process makes any sense, is Tressel not overrated both on and off the field? OSU doesn't need him.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

I have a few thoughts:



Jim Tressel is a liar and a cheat. I guess I can buy that. But, what are we really talking about here?

The extra benefits the players took are minimal. They got some ink for selling belongings which they legally owned. Five games for that seems crazy, but at least its consistent when compared to what AJ Green and Dez Bryant got.

I have a hard time reconciling the fact that such minor benefits merit a large suspension when there are so many players who break the law and put other people in danger, yet end up with no suspension or 1-2 games, max. How many players get DUI during the season? In some countries, DUI is a capital offense. If convicted, one gets the death penalty! How many players get cited for disorderly conduct when it should have been felonious assault or negligent driving when it should have been DUI, etc.?

The NCAA's punishment model is specious at best and wholly unjust at worst. In a Machiavellian sense, is Tressel attempting to protect his players from that crappy system really all that bad?! I'd argue he's guilty of bad judgment, but I'm apt to believe him that he was trying to do the right thing.



I want to know more about Terrelle Pryor's "mentor" Mr. Ted Sarniak. I also want to know more about what Herbstreit meant when he said, "[Ohio State should] quit recruiting players like Maurice Clarett and Terrelle Pryor." Herbie is plugged in to college football and he certainly has [or had] connections with OSU.

The cynic in me wants to say that Pryor and Clarett were both paid to play just like Cam Newton and Reggie Bush, but that's impossible for me to prove. After Josh Luchs' report failed to make headlines nothing would really surprise me.



"Lack of Institutional Control" wouldn't have made any sense nor would "Failure to Monitor"...

At least Ohio State has a huge compliance office and they evidently have the appropriate forms and the the right policies in place. This was not institutional. This appears to be one man acting outside the boundaries.

As such, firing Tressel before responding to the NCAA should alleviate and possibly eliminate any penalties the school might face.



A mouse on a wheel could win 10+ games at Ohio State. It's an easy conference, they don't have to compete too hard for local talent and they have a strong recruiting base that connects all the way to Florida/Georgia and New Jersey/Pennsylvania. Other than some misplaced sense of loyalty for previous accomplishments, is there a reason to keep Tressel?

Further, when looking at Tressel's rosters, his 2002 Buckeyes put more players in the NFL than any of his other teams [and the vast majority of them weren't even his recruits]. Thus, the only championship he ever won was largely with someone else's players! And, I'd argue the only reason they won that championship upset was because:



Larry Coker was incompetent.
Willis McGahee suffered a freak injury right as he was starting to carve up the OSU D-Line
The Back Judge through a curiously late flag for pass interference/holding.



In short: Regardless of whether any of this NCAA process makes any sense, is Tressel not overrated both on and off the field? OSU doesn't need him.


Part of why Tressel can win 10 games every year is because he owns Michigan. Ohio State used to have to basically split the northern Ohio recruits with Michigan (Charles Woodson, Desmond Howard, etc). I think he also has a good shot at Pennsylvania recruits since no one knows how long Paterno can keep going.

In other words, until Michigan and Penn State can claim to have long time coaches in place, whoever is at Ohio State will get the lions share of a population of 20 million people's recruits

[Whiskey]

I have a few thoughts:



Jim Tressel is a liar and a cheat. I guess I can buy that. But, what are we really talking about here?

The extra benefits the players took are minimal. They got some ink for selling belongings which they legally owned. Five games for that seems crazy, but at least its consistent when compared to what AJ Green and Dez Bryant got.

I have a hard time reconciling the fact that such minor benefits merit a large suspension when there are so many players who break the law and put other people in danger, yet end up with no suspension or 1-2 games, max. How many players get DUI during the season? In some countries, DUI is a capital offense. If convicted, one gets the death penalty! How many players get cited for disorderly conduct when it should have been felonious assault or negligent driving when it should have been DUI, etc.?

The NCAA's punishment model is specious at best and wholly unjust at worst. In a Machiavellian sense, is Tressel attempting to protect his players from that crappy system really all that bad?! I'd argue he's guilty of bad judgment, but I'm apt to believe him that he was trying to do the right thing.

I think you are getting caught up in the same place where most the Tressel apologists(not saying you are one) want to steer the discussion.

The issue at hand for Tressel is not, nor has it ever been, the level of the violations. The question/charge the NCAA is investigating is about Tressel's honesty with the NCAA and HIS compliance with the rules. The ship has sailed on the actual violation and punishment for the players with respect to "tattoo gate".

Tressel is being investigated and will be punished because he thought the rules did not apply to him. He took a very black and white rule (answering yes/no is pretty black and white) and broke it and flaunted his breaking of the rule by repeatedly lying about it.

[willel2338]

Part of why Tressel can win 10 games every year is because he owns Michigan. Ohio State used to have to basically split the northern Ohio recruits with Michigan (Charles Woodson, Desmond Howard, etc). I think he also has a good shot at Pennsylvania recruits since no one knows how long Paterno can keep going.

In other words, until Michigan and Penn State can claim to have long time coaches in place, whoever is at Ohio State will get the lions share of a population of 20 million people's recruits

That makes logical sense, but I'm not sure that's the reality. If I'm not mistaken, John Cooper put way more players in the NFL despite the fact Michigan owned his soul. I have a different perspective than you, obviously, but being in the South, it certainly seems that way to me. I can remember Eddie George, Shawn Springs, Orlando Pace, et al., in the NFL. Truthfully, I can't remember any of Tressel's players doing anything great at the next level. Also, when was the last time OSU produced the #1 overall pick? IIRC, Cooper's teams produced 2-3 #1 overall picks and he had multiple players drafted in the top 10. Just glancing at the first round picks in the NFL Draft, it appears AJ Hawk is Tressel's only top 5 selection. To compound that, Hawk was one of the players in Tressel's very first recruiting class...

[willel2338]

I think you are getting caught up in the same place where most the Tressel apologists(not saying you are one) want to steer the discussion.

The issue at hand for Tressel is not, nor has it ever been, the level of the violations. The question/charge the NCAA is investigating is about Tressel's honesty with the NCAA and HIS compliance with the rules. The ship has sailed on the actual violation and punishment for the players with respect to "tattoo gate".

Tressel is being investigated and will be punished because he thought the rules did not apply to him. He took a very black and white rule (answering yes/no is pretty black and white) and broke it and flaunted his breaking of the rule by repeatedly lying about it.

Point taken. I'm not a Tressel apologist. I think the school should fire him. And, I think the NCAA should ban him for 2+ years anyway.

I'm just saying that in the larger context the rules his players broke are pretty stupid when you have guys at Tennessee committing armed robbery and Ndamakong Suh drinking and driving, crashing into parked cars and then the police waiting 8+ hours to give him a breathalyzer so that he is charged not with DUI but instead with negligent driving..... getting some free tattoos merits 5 games, but putting innocent people's lives in danger only 2?! That's incongruent and unfair. Criminals are treated better than those who didn't break any law other than an anachronistic NCAA bylaw.

[donny5k]

That makes logical sense, but I'm not sure that's the reality. If I'm not mistaken, John Cooper put way more players in the NFL despite the fact Michigan owned his soul. I have a different perspective than you, obviously, but being in the South, it certainly seems that way to me. I can remember Eddie George, Shawn Springs, Orlando Pace, et al., in the NFL. Truthfully, I can't remember any of Tressel's players doing anything great at the next level. Also, when was the last time OSU produced the #1 overall pick? IIRC, Cooper's teams produced 2-3 #1 overall picks and he had multiple players drafted in the top 10. Just glancing at the first round picks in the NFL Draft, it appears AJ Hawk is Tressel's only top 5 selection. To compound that, Hawk was one of the players in Tressel's very first recruiting class...

Nick Mangold (perennial pro bowler), Santonio Holmes (super bowl mvp, pothead), Will Smith (solid DE for NO), AJ Hawk, Malcom Jenkins, James Laurinaitis are some of the best. Chris Gamble and several others have been decent starters, but there have been a number of first round busts (not really reflecting on Tressel, it happens). First round busts include V. Gholston, Bobby Carpenter, Michael Jenkins, Ted Ginn (didn't really get a shot yet with a good QB but had dropsies in Miami). Also Chris Beanie Wells and Anthony Gonzalez have had injury issues, otherwise they might be solid players.

[Wasp]

That makes logical sense, but I'm not sure that's the reality. If I'm not mistaken, John Cooper put way more players in the NFL despite the fact Michigan owned his soul. I have a different perspective than you, obviously, but being in the South, it certainly seems that way to me. I can remember Eddie George, Shawn Springs, Orlando Pace, et al., in the NFL. Truthfully, I can't remember any of Tressel's players doing anything great at the next level. Also, when was the last time OSU produced the #1 overall pick? IIRC, Cooper's teams produced 2-3 #1 overall picks and he had multiple players drafted in the top 10. Just glancing at the first round picks in the NFL Draft, it appears AJ Hawk is Tressel's only top 5 selection. To compound that, Hawk was one of the players in Tressel's very first recruiting class...

If Tressel wins with lesser talent, doesn't that make him a better coach (albeit a worse recruiter)? Anyway, if Tressel is not fired then he is still part of the institution, in fact, the leader of the institution. President Gee said of Tressel, "I hope he doesn't fire me." If Tressel is still there and Tressel is out of control lying to the NCAA then tOSU has a lack of institutional control.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

That makes logical sense, but I'm not sure that's the reality. If I'm not mistaken, John Cooper put way more players in the NFL despite the fact Michigan owned his soul. I have a different perspective than you, obviously, but being in the South, it certainly seems that way to me. I can remember Eddie George, Shawn Springs, Orlando Pace, et al., in the NFL. Truthfully, I can't remember any of Tressel's players doing anything great at the next level. Also, when was the last time OSU produced the #1 overall pick? IIRC, Cooper's teams produced 2-3 #1 overall picks and he had multiple players drafted in the top 10. Just glancing at the first round picks in the NFL Draft, it appears AJ Hawk is Tressel's only top 5 selection. To compound that, Hawk was one of the players in Tressel's very first recruiting class...

Never said Cooper didn't get some fantastic players, just saying that part of why Tressel is far more successful is that he gets gobs of players that might have otherwise gone to Michigan and Penn State. OSU is deep, real deep.

Also, perhaps Tress isn't that great at preparing dudes for the NFL.

[greenman]

I'm just saying that in the larger context the rules his players broke are pretty stupid when you have guys at Tennessee committing armed robbery and Ndamakong Suh drinking and driving, crashing into parked cars and then the police waiting 8+ hours to give him a breathalyzer so that he is charged not with DUI but instead with negligent driving..... getting some free tattoos merits 5 games, but putting innocent people's lives in danger only 2?! That's incongruent and unfair. Criminals are treated better than those who didn't break any law other than an anachronistic NCAA bylaw.

[Nebraska Homer Alert On]

:-? I know of the accident, but not of the waiting 8 hour for the breathalyer thing. According to him he swerved to miss a cat or dog running into the street and hit 3 cars in doing so (if you have ever been in Lincoln in the area the accident was in the streets are super narrow). He immediately called the police and Pellini right after it happened. The Lincoln Police loving nailing football players, so I find it hard to beleive they would have let him wait on the breathalyer.

[Nebraska Homer Alert Off]

Getting back to the overall DUI/criminal conduct subject, the NCAA does not have jurisdiction on that. That is totally up to the schools to give punishment. It would be nice to see the schools/conferences get together and lay out some sort of guideline punishments. But it can get really tricky in criminal cases in punishing someone before any trial (see Duke lacrosse).

[greenman]

Here is the Tressel signed compliance letter from last September saying he had no knowledge of any violations, as well as clauses in his contract which would allow OSU to fire him and not owe him a dime.

The Scarlet Letter (http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/scarlet-letter-the-doc-that-doomed-osus-tressel-29672)

[Wasp]

Ndamakong Suh drinking and driving, crashing into parked cars and then the police waiting 8+ hours to give him a breathalyzer so that he is charged not with DUI but instead with negligent driving

How do you know he even committed a DUI offense? You assume you know the results of a breathalyzer that wasn't given? You think he should be suspended more games for being in a traffic accident where he hit parked cars simply because you THINK he may have done a DUI?

[greenman]

Here are all the emails between Tressel, the attorney who tipped him off (Chris Cicero), and Pryor's "mentor "(Ted Sarniak).

Tressel emails (http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/the-lost-tressel-emails-anatomy-of-a-coverup-29681)

Tressel sure does like to use the double exclamation points.

[Wasp]

According to that story, tOSU was hiding emails to bolster Tressel's ludicrous "confidentiality" defense.

Tressel had a car-gate at Youngstown that he never got punished for, wonder if this car-gate will blow up. He is slick and smarmy so there may not be a smoking gun tying Tressel to giving his players free cars.

[willel2338]

If Tressel wins with lesser talent, doesn't that make him a better coach (albeit a worse recruiter)? Anyway, if Tressel is not fired then he is still part of the institution, in fact, the leader of the institution. President Gee said of Tressel, "I hope he doesn't fire me." If Tressel is still there and Tressel is out of control lying to the NCAA then tOSU has a lack of institutional control.



No. Because the Big Ten sucks now. It used to be decent. I agree with the second part. If Tressel survives this, OSU deserves sanctions.


How do you know he even committed a DUI offense? You assume you know the results of a breathalyzer that wasn't given? You think he should be suspended more games for being in a traffic accident where he hit parked cars simply because you THINK he may have done a DUI?

Firstly, Suh admitted he was drinking. Secondly, a breathalyzer was given and he was at half the legal limit... Thirdly, however, he took it at the station many hours after the estimated time of the incident. That much is fact.

I'd argue the rest is common sense. A guy that big will have his BAC drop very quickly once he stops drinking. That's a minor point, though. My real point is that players don't get hammered for breaking the law; they get hammered for ticky tack things like making a few dollars off a signed jersey.. it's Liliputian and silly.

[willel2338]

...it can get really tricky in criminal cases in punishing someone before any trial (see Duke lacrosse).

Good point.

[willel2338]

Never said Cooper didn't get some fantastic players, just saying that part of why Tressel is far more successful is that he gets gobs of players that might have otherwise gone to Michigan and Penn State. OSU is deep, real deep.

Also, perhaps Tress isn't that great at preparing dudes for the NFL.

...

Nick Mangold (perennial pro bowler), Santonio Holmes (super bowl mvp, pothead), Will Smith (solid DE for NO), AJ Hawk, Malcom Jenkins, James Laurinaitis are some of the best. Chris Gamble and several others have been decent starters, but there have been a number of first round busts (not really reflecting on Tressel, it happens). First round busts include V. Gholston, Bobby Carpenter, Michael Jenkins, Ted Ginn (didn't really get a shot yet with a good QB but had dropsies in Miami). Also Chris Beanie Wells and Anthony Gonzalez have had injury issues, otherwise they might be solid players.




I'm not sold. Will Smith and Chris Gamble were recruited by Cooper. Besides Nick Mangold and Santonio Holmes, maybe Laurinaitis and Beanie Wells maybe... the rest are mediocre players.


Part of why Tressel can win 10 games every year is because he owns Michigan. Ohio State used to have to basically split the northern Ohio recruits with Michigan (Charles Woodson, Desmond Howard, etc). I think he also has a good shot at Pennsylvania recruits since no one knows how long Paterno can keep going

I don't know. Michigan used to steal Ohio talent. Now, other teams take it instead... it's not like OSU gets all of it now that magic man Tressel is in town. IIRC, the 2-3 best players in the state of Ohio the last few years have not chosen OSU. We stole a really good LB [Trey DePriest] from Springfield, OH and the year before Texas came in and got 2 of the 4 best players or something like that. It's just they're no longer going to Michigan.

[greenman]

Firstly, Suh admitted he was drinking. Secondly, a breathalyzer was given and he was at half the legal limit... Thirdly, however, he took it at the station many hours after the estimated time of the incident. That much is fact.

Link?

[donny5k]

I'm not sold. Will Smith and Chris Gamble were recruited by Cooper. Besides Nick Mangold and Santonio Holmes, maybe Laurinaitis and Beanie Wells maybe... the rest are mediocre players.

Don't hate on Malcolm Jenkins, he was a beast for the Saints last year. Two times NFC defensive player of the week last year after switching to free safety.

He's had guys go in the first round. Just a lot of busts and not a lot of high-profile guys. Mangold might be the best player of the Tressel era in terms of NFL but he's a center. Ginn, Whitner, Carpenter, etc. just all happened to bust. He's definitely recruited guys and developed them into players the NFL wants to take a chance on in the first round.

[Wasp]

That's a minor point, though. My real point is that players don't get hammered for breaking the law; they get hammered for ticky tack things like making a few dollars off a signed jersey.. it's Liliputian and silly.

But the point you used isn't that convincing. For one thing, if someone robs a bank or does a DUI those things are not against NCAA rules per se. That is breaking society's rules and the criminal justice system will punish them for those rules. It is not the NCAA's job to punish them for that. OTOH, breaking NCAA rules is not against society's rules - for example - Reggie Bush can take money and not be eligible as an amateur and he won't go to jail. If you break an NCAA rule then the NCAA has to punish you, society will not. And if the penalty is not severe then no one will follow the rule.

Finally, the example you gave, the player did not fail a DUI test. Is that the NCAA's fault? Is that the school he played for's fault?

Tressel knew the guys broke rules, he didn't report it, he lied about it, he tried to cover it up. That seems like a major violation to me.

[General_Hodge_Podge]

For one thing, if someone robs a bank or does a DUI those things are not against NCAA rules per se. That is breaking society's rules and the criminal justice system will punish them for those rules.

I think the point is that the NCAA rules are arbitrary and inadequate.

begin :heynow:

A player who commits a crime reflects poorly on their school and NCAA as an organization so they should be punished in addition to what ever the criminal justice system decides.

You see suspensions for DUIs etc. (sometimes) in the NFL, but I think it should be stricter in college sports. If you suspend a guy 5 games for selling stuff they shouldn't, then suspend them an entire year for a DUI. These guys are not irreplaceable and there are many solid athletes in waiting that could take their place and not be embarrassments.

end :heynow:

[Wasp]

I think the point is that the NCAA rules are arbitrary and inadequate.


Why? Simply because you think they are? I can see the NCAA being more lenient on a kid in school with a DUI then the NFL is for a grown man making millions of dollars who presumably is more grown up and could probably afford a limo. Kids are dumb. Adults should be more responsible.

[Scars]

I see an 18 year old as a young adult, not a child.

[greenman]

Two OSU updates today:

(1) Former Buckeye legend Chris Spielman (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Headlinin-8217-Chris-Spielman-doesn-8217-t-e?urn=ncaaf-wp1399) told a gathering that he would be surprised if Tressel coached in 2011.

"Ohio State is bigger than one individual. So what has to happen, in my opinion, is that the people in charge have to take an honest look and say, 'What is best for the university moving forward?' Then they have to make a hard decision. And I do believe Coach Tressel owes it to our university, he has to look in the mirror and say, 'What is best for the university looking forward?"

(2) The $0 car that linebacker Thad Gibson (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/05/11/older-title-shows-player-paid-13700-for-his-car.html?sid=101) bought was reported incorrectly, and he did buy if for $13,700. The car was a 2007 Chrysler 300C with 13,760 miles. The Blue Book value for that car in excellent condition, with that mileage, in 2011 in Columbus is $24,275. He bought it four years ago. (http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/05/11/osus-thaddeus-gibson-paid-13700-for-chrysler-300c-still-less-than-half-what-he-should-have-paid/#more-94756) Now, we don't know the exact condition of the car, but I'm guessing you or I couldn't have walked in and got that deal.

[donny5k]

Like 1% of cars are considered excellent condition, so it was probably worth $23k. I can't say I'm shocked. Also, Spielman has echoed that refrain for a while now. I think it would be for the best if Tressel resigned, but it probably won't happen. At least not until the NCAA makes it clear that harsher punishments are coming.

[Whiskey]

Two OSU updates today:

(1) Former Buckeye legend Chris Spielman (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Headlinin-8217-Chris-Spielman-doesn-8217-t-e?urn=ncaaf-wp1399) told a gathering that he would be surprised if Tressel coached in 2011.

"Ohio State is bigger than one individual. So what has to happen, in my opinion, is that the people in charge have to take an honest look and say, 'What is best for the university moving forward?' Then they have to make a hard decision. And I do believe Coach Tressel owes it to our university, he has to look in the mirror and say, 'What is best for the university looking forward?"

(2) The $0 car that linebacker Thad Gibson (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/05/11/older-title-shows-player-paid-13700-for-his-car.html?sid=101) bought was reported incorrectly, and he did buy if for $13,700. The car was a 2007 Chrysler 300C with 13,760 miles. The Blue Book value for that car in excellent condition, with that mileage, in 2011 in Columbus is $24,275. He bought it four years ago. (http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/05/11/osus-thaddeus-gibson-paid-13700-for-chrysler-300c-still-less-than-half-what-he-should-have-paid/#more-94756) Now, we don't know the exact condition of the car, but I'm guessing you or I couldn't have walked in and got that deal.

He bought a 2007 model year car with nearly 14k miles on it in 2007? How the heck did that thing get so many miles on it? I would guess that might be a bit off, too. Was probably in near excellent condition.

[greenman]

He bought a 2007 model year car with nearly 14k miles on it in 2007? How the heck did that thing get so many miles on it? I would guess that might be a bit off, too. Was probably in near excellent condition.

I could see it happening. We bought a 2008 model used car in 2008 w/ around 7,500 miles. In our case, the 2008 model came out in fall 2007 and we bought the car in fall 2008. I think it was a program car. And ours was a lot more than $13k too.

[Whiskey]

I could see it happening. We bought a 2008 model used car in 2008 w/ around 7,500 miles. In our case, the 2008 model came out in fall 2007 and we bought the car in fall 2008. I think it was a program car. And ours was a lot more than $13k too.

I guess that seems reasonable then.

[General_Hodge_Podge]

Why? Simply because you think they are?

You seem pretty bright, there are plenty of posts that precede mine that go into detail. I was simply summarizing the point for you.

I can see the NCAA being more lenient on a kid in school with a DUI then the NFL is for a grown man making millions of dollars who presumably is more grown up and could probably afford a limo. Kids are dumb. Adults should be more responsible.

As already stated, they are at least 18 years old so they are adults. Maybe thats why these "kids" grow into NFL players who continue to do dumb stuff because they got their hand slapped by their enablers when they were younger.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

Not surprising that the dealer put $0 on the price even if it wasn't. That's shady for a dealer, it avoids taxes. Which also means the dealer is going to spill the beans. The NCAA has a tough time making a case unless someone spills the beans. And when someone has to choose between jail and/or a massive fine vs telling all, they tell all.

[donny5k]

Not surprising that the dealer put $0 on the price even if it wasn't. That's shady for a dealer, it avoids taxes. Which also means the dealer is going to spill the beans. The NCAA has a tough time making a case unless someone spills the beans. And when someone has to choose between jail and/or a massive fine vs telling all, they tell all.
I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, but wouldn't this be embezzlement too? They basically exchanged part of an asset for tickets. I'm sure they didn't report their taxes correctly but maybe they committed financial fraud as well. I guess they would have to be deceiving some other part owners of the dealerships or something.

[General_Hodge_Podge]

read yesterday the original title showed the $13k, but one from 6 months later showed $0. Not sure what that means exactly...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6526673

[Actuary321]

Not surprising that the dealer put $0 on the price even if it wasn't. That's shady for a dealer, it avoids taxes. Which also means the dealer is going to spill the beans. The NCAA has a tough time making a case unless someone spills the beans. And when someone has to choose between jail and/or a massive fine vs telling all, they tell all.I bought a vehicle for $1 once from a relative. When I went to license it, the DMV charged me tax based on the blue book price. The state really wants their money. They aren't going to get screwed.

[greenman]

I don't understand why people are calling for Tressel's head.


Because he knowingly played ineligible players and flat out lied to the NCAA and his bosses.

[egg]

Because he knowingly played ineligible players and flat out lied to the NCAA and his bosses.

And everyone who has done that before has been fired.

[Whiskey]

Because he knowingly played ineligible players and flat out lied to the NCAA and his bosses.

This is pretty much it.

What I don't get is why all the Tressel apologists like to ignore this fact or gloss over it saying others are doing worse.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

I don't understand why people are calling for Tressel's head.
We live in an environment where John Calipari continues to coach, Auburn and $cam Newton got off scott-free, and SEC stands for "Sure, everyone cheats".

I think we all need a serious reality check and accept that college sports is dirty, has always been dirty, and will always be dirty. It's an environment where cheaters always prosper. If you enjoy college sports, you might as well enjoy it for what it is.

What I don't like about the NCAA is the selective enforcement. Half of the champions in the last 20 years have been involved in major scandals. Yet they seemingly play favorites and lay down the hammer on a few schools, while handing the others a get-out-of-jail-free card. The lack of enforcement is bad enough, but the blatant hypocrisy is what's really alarming.

Which of these statements is the one you meant to say?

[greenman]

I see Daniel deleted his post...

[greenman]

More OSU news...

Ohio St.'s Ray Small says he sold rings (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6592185)

Some highlights:

Former Ohio State wide receiver Ray Small told the school's student newspaper that he sold Big Ten championship rings and other memorabilia for cash and got special car deals as an athlete during his playing days.

The Lantern reported that Small, who played for the Buckeyes from 2006 to 2010, said "everyone was doing it" on the team.

He said the biggest advantages came from car dealerships.

"It was definitely the deals on the cars. I don't see why it's a big deal," said Small.

[donny5k]

FYI, Small is like the Jose Canseco of ex-Buckeye players, but not as good at the sport. That said, these car dealers are in some trouble, and OSU is gonna get the USC treatment.

[greenman]

FYI, Small is like the Jose Canseco of ex-Buckeye players, but not as good at the sport. That said, these car dealers are in some trouble, and OSU is gonna get the USC treatment.

And Canseco ended up being right about a lot of the steriod stuff...

[donny5k]

And Canseco ended up being right about a lot of the steriod stuff...

I know, and Small probably isn't lying, but not shocked that he was the first to rat out the behind the scenes stuff the players/boosters are doing.

[willel2338]

I doubt it will be the USC treatment, but I still have to believe it would certainly be wise to fire Tressel and make changes ASAP to show they have self-remedied any problems.

FWIW, Small has commented further...:link: (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6600920&campaign=rss&source=NCFHeadlines)

[pingsta]

Tressel resigns! (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6606999)

[rawl316]

peace sweater vest :peace:

[Mick Fan]

A little surprised.

It's never the crime; it's always the cover-up.

[Mick Fan]

So will Jimmy T coach again? When? Where?

[hokie9415]

When news came out a few months ago that Tressel knew about the violations but did not report them, I couldn't see how this would end without him resigning or being fired. That being said, I'm still surprised to see it happen. He seemed like he was hunkering down since he had lawyered up.
Hard to feel sorry for him though. He made his millions and won a national championship.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

This one actually bothers me the most, since most of the other "crimes" were victimless.


One of Tressel's duties then was to organize and run the Buckeyes' summer camp. Most of the young players who attended it would never play college football, but a few were top prospects whom Ohio State was recruiting. At the end of camp, attendees bought tickets to a raffle with prizes such as cleats and a jersey. According to his fellow assistant, Tressel rigged the raffle so that the elite prospects won -- a potential violation of NCAA rules. Says the former colleague, who asked not to be identified because he still has ties to the Ohio State community, "In the morning he would read the Bible with another coach. Then, in the afternoon, he would go out and cheat kids who had probably saved up money from mowing lawns to buy those raffle tickets. That's Jim Tressel."
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/30/jim.tressel/index.html#ixzz1Nvr6cKnX

[General_Hodge_Podge]

So will Jimmy T coach again? When? Where?

Yes. Soon. Raiders.

[The Drunken Actuary]

This one actually bothers me the most, since most of the other "crimes" were victimless.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/30/jim.tressel/index.html#ixzz1Nvr6cKnX:lol: An unidentified source says they saved up their hard earned money mowing lawns to buy raffle tickets and Jimmy T fixed the raffle. :roll:

[Keep It Real, Yo]

:lol: Saved up their hard earned money mowing lawns to buy raffle tickets. Please.

Well, that quote was a little over the top, but still. Rigging a raffle offered to high school kids is pretty damn un-Christian.

[rawl316]

I liked the part about prior driving 8 cars in 3 years. Hey, osu is still better than everyone else because they do things the right way.

[The Drunken Actuary]

Well, that quote was a little over the top, but still. Rigging a raffle offered to high school kids is pretty damn un-Christian.Did they really have to pay for raffle tickets? There are plenty of events where everyone in attendance is entered in a raffle for free. It wouldn't bother me too much if that sort of thing was fixed. A little misleading but not really the same thing as stealing some kids hard earned lawn mowing money. It's kind of hard for me to believe these players at this camp had to pay for raffle tickets. Those kinds of raffles are usually to make money. Is the OSU athletic department really trying to earn money by selling raffle tickets at a kids camp for cleats and jerseys?

[The Drunken Actuary]

I liked the part about prior driving 8 cars in 3 years. Hey, osu is still better than everyone else because they do things the right way.What was the violation in that situation?

[egg]

I liked the part about prior driving 8 cars in 3 years. Hey, osu is still better than everyone else because they do things the right way.

Make it 9 since he was driving around yesterday in a Nissan 350Z. http://yfrog.com/h0dngyuuj

The guy is gold.

[Cynical Realist]

There is a kind of surprising parallel to Tressel and Woody.

Woody - 3 yards and cloud of dust, always ran an option offense with a run first QB. Then comes a long this highly touted recruit from southern Ohio named Art Schlicter, he's a more traditional drop back QB. Hardly fits the OSU offense.

OSU lands him sits him for the opener, then trots him out at home against Penn St (non-conference game then). Art throws 5 INT's OSU gets pummeled 30-0.

A few years later in the highly regarded also ran Liberty Bowl, Art throws the INT to Clemson's Charlie Bauman, who gets knocked out of bounds on the OSU sideline and then Woody punches the guy and bye-bye Woody.

Of course this would have never played out if they hadn't landed the prize recruit in Schlicter. It was poetic that Woody's career ends on the forward pass which he had disdain for saying: "When you throw the ball, three things can happen, and two of them are bad."


Tressel lands the biggest recruit in Pryor, where as the won with some lackluster QB play before that....

[rawl316]

What was the violation in that situation?

Is this a level?

[The Drunken Actuary]

Is this a level?

:-?

[Keep It Real, Yo]

The heat is on Terrelle Pryor now

[Brutè]

Make it 9 since he was driving around yesterday in a Nissan 350Z. http://yfrog.com/h0dngyuuj

The guy is gold.I'm on record as saying during the Pryor recruitment that I didn't want him here. I was actually kind of glad we got him just because he didn't go to Michigan but other than that I thought he was bad news and didn't want him to come. I was right! You can ask a coworker. His name is Steve. True story. Of course I didn't know how bad news he was or I would have wished him on Michigan instead.

Anyway, between ths NFL and this I guess I won't be watching any football this fall now. Probably get a lot done around the house though so my wife will be happy(er).

As for the car thing, i dunno, but I actually thought that was generally within the rules. Everybody around columbus knows these guys get cars. The mechanism seemed to be that the players' actual cars went 'into the shop' and they would get these other cars as loaners. I'm not sure if it's a straight up violation or just looks bad. I admit I really haven't followed it that closesly though.

Oddly, no one at work is talking about it. At least not with me. I think most people thought it was inevitble I guess.

[rawl316]

:-?

Even tressell knew what he was doing wrong. Surely you can figure it out.

[The Drunken Actuary]

Even tressell knew what he was doing wrong. Surely you can figure it out.

Did Tressel get a car?

I don't know what 'is this a level' means. Sorry. :shrug:

[The Drunken Actuary]

The mechanism seemed to be that the players' actual cars went 'into the shop' and they would get these other cars as loaners.Seems like a legit way to skirt the rules.

What's the violation here, Rawl?

[SharksFan08]

Seems like a legit way to skirt the rules.

What's the violation here, Rawl?

:troll:

[The Drunken Actuary]

:troll:

No, just ignorant.

Carry on, I really don't care that much. Mike and mike were talking about it this morning which is the only reason I know about it.

[willel2338]

Seems like a legit way to skirt the rules.

What's the violation here, Rawl?

The violation is taking advantage of the "extra benefits" that aren't available to other students of the university. Supposedly, the manual for compliance with these ruls is near 10,000 pages and covers nearly everything, much of it explicitly... For what it's worth, sleeping on someone's couch free of charge was recently considered an "extra benefit" by the NCAA. Surely, driving a free rental car would be as well...

[The Drunken Actuary]

The violation is taking advantage of the "extra benefits" that aren't available to other students of the university. Supposedly, the manual for compliance with these ruls is near 10,000 pages and covers nearly everything, much of it explicitly... For what it's worth, sleeping on someone's couch free of charge was recently considered an "extra benefit" by the NCAA. Surely, driving a free rental car would be as well...

Unless other students can be shown to have received a loaner car while their car was in the shop, right?

[Actuary321]

A little surprised.

It's never the crime; it's always the cover-up.Sometimes it is the crime. But the coverup usually seems to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Had he handled it correctly and let the university know, they investigate, and the players probably are suspended for a couple games and life goes on.

With the coverup you get reporters digging up as much dirt as possible finding things that would never have come out through a university or NCAA investigation. And without the coverup to push the reporters, they don't dig as much.

Unless other students can be shown to have received a loaner car while their car was in the shop, right?Well if that was the only issue then it might not be too bad, though it might become questionable about how often student athlete's cars broke down and how long it took to fix them while the student athlete was driving the loaner (and of course the value of the loaner).

But there is a whole list of students athletes and their families who were able to buy cars from theses 2 dealers at what seem to be (questionably) great deals.

[SharksFan08]

Unless other students can be shown to have received a loaner car while their car was in the shop, right?

No. Scholarship athletes are not treated like other students. There are tons of additional restrictions placed on them, which is made explicitly clear to both players and coaches.

For example, my college roommate (scholarship swimmer) wasn't allowed to participate when one of his classes did a white elephant at Christmas, because he could have ended up with a gift of greater value than the one he brought.

[vito]

The prevailing message today seems to be that if Tressel would have immediately contacted the compliance office after receiving the e-mails, then both he and the school could have avoided a majority of this mess. I'm not so sure I would agree with this.

If he would have contacted the compliance office, the current players would have been suspended immediately, but that would not have stopped the snooping around by the NCAA and the media. Eventually, IMO, Terrell Pryor will be known as Reggie Bush -version 2.0.

Also, the Maurice Clarett and Troy Smith stories are going to be "re-examined".

[vito]

Let me be the first to congratulate the Arkansas Razorbacks. Within the next 6 months or so, it will be proclaimed that you did not lose the 2011 Sugar Bowl.

[anon3]

Bye Bye Cheaty McSweater

[vito]

If you want to destroy my sweater
Hold this thread as I walk away
Watch me unravel, I'll soon be fired
Lying on the (compliance) form, lying on the form
I've come undone

[General_Hodge_Podge]

If you want to destroy my sweater
Hold this thread as I walk away
Watch me unravel, I'll soon be fired
Lying on the (compliance) form, lying on the form
I've come undone

ha, traded in his sweater vest for an emo sweater!

[Actuary321]

Let me be the first to congratulate the Arkansas Razorbacks. Within the next 6 months or so, it will be proclaimed that you did not lose the 2011 Sugar Bowl.Actually it will not be proclaimed that the Arkansas Razorbacks didn't lose. Their record will not change. It will be proclaimed that tOSU Buckeyes did not win. So the 2001 Sugar Bowl will not have an official winner. But it will still have an official loser.

[ditkaworshipper]

I'll be honest, since seeing half of my school rooting for tOSU in our season opener my Freshman year, I did not like tOSU football program. It seemed like Tressel ran a fairly tight ship to me, but with how all this went down, I've lost respect for him as well.

I hope they get USC like sanctions. Sorry tOSU AO members, but this is nothing against your school, just the religion of Ohio State football.

[wolferine]

I hope they get the death penalty. Clearly a lack of institutional control for Gordon Gee down to Tressel. From basketball to football. They need to be made an example of. Tressel has been cheating since he got to OSU. Even before at Youngstown St. It's amazing he got away with it for so long. They should vacate the ill gotten title because Tressel was doing car deals and covering it up for Maurice Clarett, Pryor, and all his other players.

[Cynical Realist]

Oh Death Penalty, be still my heart. Players getting cars, Oh my! Can't believe this was happening when it never happens anywhere else. This is just crazy. how could this all go on at one place....


As for the 2011 Sugar Bowl - there was a winner tOSU - and the bookies paid the bettors for tOSU, the rest is academic.... If you are still holding your Arkansas ticket, try collecting.

[Meathead]

Actually it will not be proclaimed that the Arkansas Razorbacks didn't lose. Their record will not change. It will be proclaimed that tOSU Buckeyes did not win. So the 2001 Sugar Bowl will not have an official winner. But it will still have an official loser.

I think that depends on whether OS(tatt-)U has to vacate wins or has to forfeit games. Who knows, RichRod may turn out to be the only UM coach who has never lost to the Buckeyes.

[egg]

Oh Death Penalty, be still my heart. Players getting cars, Oh my! Can't believe this was happening when it never happens anywhere else. This is just crazy. how could this all go on at one place....


As for the 2011 Sugar Bowl - there was a winner tOSU - and the bookies paid the bettors for tOSU, the rest is academic.... If you are still holding your Arkansas ticket, try collecting.

No way no how does OSU get the death penalty. First, their level of improprieties don't rise to the level of SMU. Second, OSU didn't continue to flaunt it in front of the NCAA after being punished once. Finally, if the NCAA had to do it again, they wouldn't give SMU the death penalty, because it lived up to its name and totally destroyed that program.

That being said, I think OSU might be in for some serious penalties, with everything that has come out since the original notice of allegations, "lack of institutional control" has to be on the table, plus in the original notice they were subject to additional penalties because they were on probation.

They will probably be facing recruiting visit reductions, almost certainly scholarship reductions, 2010 vacated wins [maybe more pending how far back some of this goes], and a bowl ban is on the table.

[Whiskey]

No way no how does OSU get the death penalty. First, their level of improprieties don't rise to the level of SMU. Second, OSU didn't continue to flaunt it in front of the NCAA after being punished once. Finally, if the NCAA had to do it again, they wouldn't give SMU the death penalty, because it lived up to its name and totally destroyed that program.

That being said, I think OSU might be in for some serious penalties, with everything that has come out since the original notice of allegations, "lack of institutional control" has to be on the table, plus in the original notice they were subject to additional penalties because they were on probation.

They will probably be facing recruiting visit reductions, almost certainly scholarship reductions, 2010 vacated wins [maybe more pending how far back some of this goes], and a bowl ban is on the table.

I would think that they are going to get at least as much as a punishment as USC.

[egg]

Hard to say, more players are involved with OSU, but the $ amounts are a lot less. Or in actuarial speak, higher frequency and lower severity.

[wolferine]

Hard to say, more players are involved with OSU, but the $ amounts are a lot less. Or in actuarial speak, higher frequency and lower severity.

Was it ever shown that Pete Carroll tried to cover up the Reggie Bush scandal or lied to the NCAA? I'm not that familiar with the facts surrounding the USC penalty. I don't think the dollar amount is what is important. It's the actions of the people running the program. In that case the frequency of cover ups and number of lies seems more severe.

[Whiskey]

Hard to say, more players are involved with OSU, but the $ amounts are a lot less. Or in actuarial speak, higher frequency and lower severity.

:lol: I was going to make the frequency vs. severity arguement here, but thought it was too geeky.

If even half of the reported violations are real, I think the frequency and duration of what was going on at OSU was a much bigger deal. We will find out in the next year or so if the NCAA agrees.

[Whiskey]

Was it ever shown that Pete Carroll tried to cover up the Reggie Bush scandal or lied to the NCAA? I'm not that familiar with the facts surrounding the USC penalty. I don't think the dollar amount is what is important. It's the actions of the people running the program. In that case the frequency of cover ups and number of lies seems more severe.

Carroll = no.

However, the NCAA feels like they proved an assistany coach (mcnair?) had knowledgd of the Bush shenanigans.

[tometom]

I think the penalty should be as harsh if not harsher than USC. USC is 10 scholarships a year plus bowl ban for 2 years. Maybe tOSU should get 3 years.

Anyone see the article about Terrelle driving on a suspended license? This kid has to be all kinds of stupid.

[donny5k]

Carroll = no.

However, the NCAA feels like they proved an assistany coach (mcnair?) had knowledgd of the Bush shenanigans.

And with USC you had institutional lack of control since OJ Mayo happened around the same time where the coach was involved in the wrongdoing. Also, you had celebrities hanging out around the practices and lots of other nonsense. I am hoping as a Buckeye fan this crap is isolated to football.

[DanielSong39]

When is Auburn going to be punished?

[Meathead]

And with USC you had institutional lack of control since OJ Mayo happened around the same time where the coach was involved in the wrongdoing. Also, you had celebrities hanging out around the practices and lots of other nonsense. I am hoping as a Buckeye fan this crap is isolated to football.

and basketball. Just sayin'

[Meathead]

Was it ever shown that Pete Carroll tried to cover up the Reggie Bush scandal or lied to the NCAA? I'm not that familiar with the facts surrounding the USC penalty.

Not sure what was "shown", but Carroll certainly picked, in hindsight, an opportune time to leave the best job in college sports to coach the Seahawks.

[wolferine]

When is Auburn going to be punished?

When they play Alabama next year.

What did Auburn do that warrants punishment? Was anyone involved with Auburn accused of paying Cam Newton?

[hokie9415]

And with USC you had institutional lack of control since OJ Mayo happened around the same time where the coach was involved in the wrongdoing. Also, you had celebrities hanging out around the practices and lots of other nonsense. I am hoping as a Buckeye fan this crap is isolated to football.

Who will you blame for all this? Will you boo Pryor and the other 4 in their first home game, or do you put all the blame Tressell?

[Mick Fan]

Who will you blame for all this? Will you boo Pryor and the other 4 in their first home game, or do you put all the blame Tressell?

You are making the assumption that Terelle Pryor will actually suit up for tOSU this season. Richard Pryor has a better chance of playing for tOSU in the 2011 season, IMHO.

[rawl316]

Sounds like Pryor is going to enter the supplemental draft

[donny5k]

Who will you blame for all this? Will you boo Pryor and the other 4 in their first home game, or do you put all the blame Tressell?

I would have to boo the whole team if that were the case (since who knows how many have been taking things / car deals), which I would never do. Can't get mad at only the guys that happened to get caught. I don't think Pryor is going to play. And Braxton Miller is going to have to suffer through a sanctioned era.

The way I'm kinda looking at it now is if he's going to lie about something that obviously will eventually come out (federal investigation...) why the heck did he talk about it in emails? How dumb is it to think any email you send/receive can't be easily looked up once compliance starts to investigate? So I'm kinda mad at Tressel for being dumb in addition to the ethical mistake.

[Bamafan]

When they play Alabama next year.

What did Auburn do that warrants punishment? Was anyone involved with Auburn accused of paying Cam Newton?

Of course, :iatp: !

[Actuary321]

I would have to boo the whole team if that were the case (since who knows how many have been taking things / car deals), which I would never do. Can't get mad at only the guys that happened to get caught. I don't think Pryor is going to play. And Braxton Miller is going to have to suffer through a sanctioned era.

The way I'm kinda looking at it now is if he's going to lie about something that obviously will eventually come out (federal investigation...) why the heck did he talk about it in emails? How dumb is it to think any email you send/receive can't be easily looked up once compliance starts to investigate? So I'm kinda mad at Tressel for being dumb in addition to the ethical mistake.Wait a minute, those 5 players gave their word that they would come back next year and serve out their suspensions. That was the deal to let them play in the Sugar bowl. They can't go back on their word now. That would be like cheating or lying or something.

[Whiskey]

Wait a minute, those 5 players gave their word that they would come back next year and serve out their suspensions. That was the deal to let them play in the Sugar bowl. They can't go back on their word now. That would be like cheating or lying or something.

:iatp:

[wolferine]

How dumb is it to think any email you send/receive can't be easily looked up once compliance starts to investigate? So I'm kinda mad at Tressel for being dumb in addition to the ethical mistake.

Typical Ohio Tattoo State alumni. Isn't so mad that Tressel cheats, just that he got caught. I guess we can agree that the "t" in tOSU now stands for tattoo.

[Actuary321]

Typical Ohio Tattoo State alumni. Isn't so mad that Tressel cheats, just that he got caught. I guess we can agree that the "t" in tOSU now stands for tattoo.Interesting, so who ninja'd (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showpost.php?p=5247395&postcount=10) whom?
:lol:

[donny5k]

Typical Ohio Tattoo State alumni. Isn't so mad that Tressel cheats, just that he got caught. I guess we can agree that the "t" in tOSU now stands for tattoo.

Every top program, including Michigan, likely has these things going on (players taking advantage of their value in spite of NCAA rules that forbid it). You are naive if you think that isn't the case. I am sure that whatever Woody did that was questionable in terms of recruiting or improper benefits was also utilized by Bo.

[Whiskey]

Every top program, including Michigan, likely has these things going on (players taking advantage of their value in spite of NCAA rules that forbid it). You are naive if you think that isn't the case. I am sure that whatever Woody did that was questionable in terms of recruiting or improper benefits was also utilized by Bo.

so this is the ohio state fan stance? "Everyone else is doing exactly the same and OSU is just being picked on by the NCAA." :shake:

[wolferine]

Every top program, including Michigan, likely has these things going on (players taking advantage of their value in spite of NCAA rules that forbid it). You are naive if you think that isn't the case. I am sure that whatever Woody did that was questionable in terms of recruiting or improper benefits was also utilized by Bo.

People get murdered every day, so by your reasoning murder is ok. Nice.

[donny5k]

so this is the ohio state fan stance? "Everyone else is doing exactly the same and OSU is just being picked on by the NCAA." :shake:

People get murdered every day, so by your reasoning murder is ok. Nice.
I never said OSU is being picked on. I merely stated the fact that this is going on everywhere and its just a symptom of the real problem. It's a house of cards system that is about to collapse. A different program will be caught every year. Notice the NCAA never finds things on its own, it takes an unrelated federal investigation or a public records request by a news service to find these things. Last year it was USC and Tennessee. Next year it will probably be Auburn, who knows.

wolferine, nice try, but that analogy would only work if there were false incentives created to make murder a requirement for success.
Or I guess if you were referring to the players selling memorabilia I don't know how you could possibly compare murder to doing something that is completely legal but against the arbitrary rules of your employer. It's the moral equivalent of taking an extra long lunch break every day.

[Brutè]

so this is the ohio state fan stance? "Everyone else is doing exactly the same and OSU is just being picked on by the NCAA." :shake:
Meh. Yeah, that's pretty much my stance. It was my stance when USC got nailed and when Bruce Pearle got busted too. I just didn't care as much. There was blood in the water with the tattoo thing so Yahoo! and SI and everyone else piled on.

[willel2338]

So what he didn't turn his players in. I wouldn't have either.

And, looking back with perfect information, I still wouldn't have turned them in.

I wonder if OSU fans still think that's true...

[Brutè]

Wait a minute, those 5 players gave their word that they would come back next year and serve out their suspensions. That was the deal to let them play in the Sugar bowl. They can't go back on their word now. That would be like cheating or lying or something.
They gave their word to Tressel, not the NCAA. I doubt Tressel cares much at this point. For all we know Pryor asked Tressel to be let out of that committment.

[donny5k]

Meh. Yeah, that's pretty much my stance. It was my stance when USC got nailed and when Bruce Pearle got busted too. I just didn't care as much. There was blood in the water with the tattoo thing so Yahoo! and SI and everyone else piled on.

But rather than picked on, it is just our turn to be the punching bag that is being held up by the NCAA in order to avoid the punches hitting them.

[donny5k]

They gave their word to Tressel, not the NCAA. I doubt Tressel cares much at this point. For all we know Pryor asked Tressel to be let out of that committment.

It is most likely in everyone's mutual best interest for him to just declare for the supplemental draft and go be a 3rd string QB in the NFL.

[Brutè]

It is most likely in everyone's mutual best interest for him to just declare for the supplemental draft and go be a 3rd string QB in the NFL.I think I said before I never wanted Pryor here in the first place. I'm glad he's gone. If I see him on 270 in his 350Z I'll rear end him so he can get cited for not having a license. Yeah, thats it! That'll show him!

I agree with Speilman, he'll never suit up again. He'll get booed out of the stadium if he does.

He has no chance in the NFL either.

[Whiskey]

Not all the information is really out, but Tressel revealed that he was respecting an attorney's request for confidentiality in a drug trafficking case that was somehow related. He was erring on the side of protecting the players that were named in that investigation. I'm biased but I think he's being honest and he didn't know what he was supposed to do from a compliance standpoint.
:rofl:
lots of gems back on the first page of this thread.

[donny5k]

:rofl:
lots of gems back on the first page of this thread.

:lol:
I certainly had blinders on at that point.

[rawl316]

Am I naive for thinking Penn state is clean?

[egg]

A counter to the "everyone does it" defense:

http://recruitocosm.fantake.com/2011/05/31/texas-football-and-institutional-control/

And if everyone is doing it, why does Tressel's boys seem to be more public?

Tressel had allegations from Youngstown St. At OSU, Clarett admitted to taking money, Troy Smith got busted for taking money, AJ Hawk seemed to have a lot of money lying around for a college student (or for anyone else), Tat5 got caught. Why did this only happen during Tressel's reign? I don't recall Spielman or Herbstreit getting special privledges. I don't remember Eddie George or Orlando Pace or David Boston either.

Over the past 10 years, what other school has had this amount of violations? Why doesn't Texas have a similar track record? Or Oklahoma? USC got busted. The Cam Newton thing is ridiculous. But that is hardly "everyone".

[donny5k]

Or Oklahoma?
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2933008
:yellowcard:

You really think every player is as honorable as the military walk-on who bleeds burnt orange? There's plenty of quality guys that go through OSU who would have said similar things about their time at OSU had the rule violators not been caught.

[wolferine]

It's the moral equivalent of taking an extra long lunch break every day.

So you take an extra long lunch break and submit false time cards too?

The horror of it all. I guess tOSU alumni have no honor. Oh, and your blinders are still on. Maybe one day you will open your eyes but they are clearly still shut.

[willel2338]

Am I naive for thinking Penn state is clean?

Perhaps you're naive. Who knows? Call me cynical, but if somebody inside Penn State ever finds incriminating e-mails coming from JoePa's account, then those e-mails would be purged and swept under the rug... At minimum, I doubt they'd get sold to the local newspaper [which is what happened in Columbus]

[keyser soze]

A counter to the "everyone does it" defense:

http://recruitocosm.fantake.com/2011/05/31/texas-football-and-institutional-control/

And if everyone is doing it, why does Tressel's boys seem to be more public?

Tressel had allegations from Youngstown St. At OSU, Clarett admitted to taking money, Troy Smith got busted for taking money, AJ Hawk seemed to have a lot of money lying around for a college student (or for anyone else), Tat5 got caught. Why did this only happen during Tressel's reign? I don't recall Spielman or Herbstreit getting special privledges. I don't remember Eddie George or Orlando Pace or David Boston either.

Over the past 10 years, what other school has had this amount of violations? Why doesn't Texas have a similar track record? Or Oklahoma? USC got busted. The Cam Newton thing is ridiculous. But that is hardly "everyone".

I just want to say that Herbstreit got no special privileges because he was a dogshit football player.

[Mick Fan]

Perhaps you're naive. Who knows? Call me cynical, but if somebody inside Penn State ever finds incriminating e-mails coming from JoePa's account, then those e-mails would be purged and swept under the rug... At minimum, I doubt they'd get sold to the local newspaper [which is what happened in Columbus]

I don't think that JoePa has ever sent an e-mail in his life. :)

And yes, I am a PSU fan and I believe that crap goes on there as well.

The whole idea of big-time college sports seems more and more pointless ever year. It's so hypocritical and sad that major instutitions of higher learning will sell their souls for this junk.

I'll start watching more Division II sports. Maybe this is why I'm getting more and more drawn toward pro golf and the English Premier League.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

I'll start watching more Division II sports.

I've started doing this when I want my amateur fix.

But college football games are just too fun. I just can't quit them.

[Whiskey]

All 2010 victories have been vacated.
This includes their share of big10 title.
Football team is now on probation.

All actions are from the school directly. No word yet on extent or length of probation.

[greenman]

All 2010 victories have been vacated.
This includes their share of big10 title.
Football team is now on probation.

All actions are from the school directly. No word yet on extent or length of probation.

OSU argues that no other penalties are needed since the infractions were all Tressel and now he's gone, so no further penalties needed. I'm guessing the NCAA will at least dock them 1 bowl game (to make up for last year's Sugar fiasco) and 5-10 scholies for 2 years.

[Whiskey]

Also, he doesn't have to pay that large fine.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

So when does this story officially end? When the NCAA finally levies its decision?

[greenman]

So when does this story officially end? When the NCAA finally levies its decision?

Going by the USC model, probably about 6 months after that b/c OSU will appeal the NCAA decision and that will presumably be denied.

[MountainHawk]

They should bring the death penalty down on OSU, so the Big 10 can go back to the superior logo and not have the stupid division names.

[Irish Blues]

They should bring the death penalty down on OSU, so the Big 10 can go back to the superior logo and not have the stupid division names.

:iatp: with the latter 2 points. Re: the death penalty - it's clear there was a total lack of institutional control. The administration was cowtowing to Tressel, and even when presented with rampant evidence of violations the school completely danced around it. Is that sufficient to get the death penalty when there have been no prior penalties? Probably not - but the school should be on notice that anything out of the ordinary would earn it. I'd give tOSU 5 years probation, dock the football program 20-30 scholarships a la USC, and ban the team from the postseason for 2 years ... maybe even dock them a home non-conference game for good measure.

The argument against dropping the death penalty on a program is that SMU's program was so damaged when it got the death penalty, the NCAA didn't want another program to have to go through that. Bullshit - that's exactly the deterrent needed to get programs to try and be clean. Kentucky basketball almost got it in the late-80s [and probably should have gotten it then], and Alabama football committed major violations while already on probation in the 2001-2003 era ... but neither one of them actually got the hammer dropped. Right now, the ends justify the means because if you get caught, you don't have to return the money - and there's A LOT of money to be made if you can come out #1. Drop the death penalty on a program, and the benefit of being dirty going for #1 is wholly outweighed by the massive loss of revenue for the next 2 years and the resulting work in rebuilding the program.

[donny5k]

Going by the USC model, probably about 6 months after that b/c OSU will appeal the NCAA decision and that will presumably be denied.

I don't think OSU will appeal.

[Whiskey]

I don't think OSU will appeal.

Even if the NCAA gives them a 2 year bowl ban along with a significant reduction in scholarships? (Which is reasonable based on the USC case)

Or do you think that OSU will not appeal their own self imposed penalty if the NCAA thinks this Laughable sanction OSU gave themselves is adequate?

[donny5k]

Even if the NCAA gives them a 2 year bowl ban along with a significant reduction in scholarships? (Which is reasonable based on the USC case)

Or do you think that OSU will not appeal their own self imposed penalty if the NCAA thinks this Laughable sanction OSU gave themselves is adequate?

I think the USC punishment is around the upper bound for OSU's punishment. I think it will be somewhere between 1 year bowl ban + a handful of scholarships and USC's punishment. I think Gene Smith's strategy will be to not appeal going off of what he has done so far.

Also, I don't think OSU expects the self-imposed sanctions to be the end of it, but it seems like whatever they self-imposed would be called not enough by the "death penalty" torch and pitchfork crowd. NCAA would feel pressure to increase the penalty no matter what OSU set, so might as well set it low so when the NCAA decides 1 year bowl ban + 5 scholarships for 2 years, it isn't seen as a slap on the wrist (which it would certainly not be).

Let's put it this way, I'll be disappointed as an alum if they don't just take their medicine given the unlikelihood of a successful appeal.

[wolferine]

Also, I don't think OSU expects the self-imposed sanctions to be the end of it, but it seems like whatever they self-imposed would be called not enough by the "death penalty" torch and pitchfork crowd.


I'm guessing if OSU self-imposed the death penalty it would be deemed enough by the torch and pitchfork crowd.

[Whiskey]

I'm guessing if OSU self-imposed the death penalty it would be deemed enough by the torch and pitchfork crowd.

Dude, if are posting with this alt in this thread, you have to hate on the buckeyes. You are clearly doing it wrong.

[Whiskey]

I think the USC punishment is around the upper bound for OSU's punishment. I think it will be somewhere between 1 year bowl ban + a handful of scholarships and USC's punishment. I think Gene Smith's strategy will be to not appeal going off of what he has done so far.

Also, I don't think OSU expects the self-imposed sanctions to be the end of it, but it seems like whatever they self-imposed would be called not enough by the "death penalty" torch and pitchfork crowd. NCAA would feel pressure to increase the penalty no matter what OSU set, so might as well set it low so when the NCAA decides 1 year bowl ban + 5 scholarships for 2 years, it isn't seen as a slap on the wrist (which it would certainly not be).

Let's put it this way, I'll be disappointed as an alum if they don't just take their medicine given the unlikelihood of a successful appeal.

Okay. Makes sense. Wasn't sure exactly what you were saying in the original post.

I don't think they need the death penalty. But I do think the usc treatment is appropriate based on the actions of tressel and the clear lack of oversight the university showed wrt to his complience.

[donny5k]

Okay. Makes sense. Wasn't sure exactly what you were saying in the original post.

I don't think they need the death penalty. But I do think the usc treatment is appropriate based on the actions of tressel and the clear lack of oversight the university showed wrt to his complience.

I won't be shocked if they rule that way. I still think the institutional issues are less egregious than USC since USC had a coach provide an illegal benefit in addition to a cover-up. They also had issues with OJ Mayo that compounded the lack of institutional control. The 2 cases against USC compounded the overall penalty for each sport, imo.

[Whiskey]

Just heard that osu is not returning the sugar bowl money. Do schools normally keep the money for a bowl when an entire season is vacated likethis so closely to the completion of the season? Or is this type of quick vacating sorta unprecedented?

[wolferine]

Dude, if are posting with this alt in this thread, you have to hate on the buckeyes. You are clearly doing it wrong.

Doing what wrong? How am I loving on the buckeyes?

[Actuary321]

Does anyone ever give back money voluntarily? NO.

Unless OSU is ordered by the NCAA they will not be giving money back.

Was USC ordered to give back the money they got for the bowl games they played in that were vacated? NO.

[Actuary321]

And you can bet if the NCAA increases the punishment any more than what the self imposed, they will appeal.

For cripes sakes this all came out because they were appealing the 5 game suspensions given to the players before the Sugar bowl. And they had agreed to that.

[donny5k]

Does anyone ever give back money voluntarily? NO.

Unless OSU is ordered by the NCAA they will not be giving money back.

Was USC ordered to give back the money they got for the bowl games they played in that were vacated? NO.

I don't think the NCAA can order anyone to give money back. Anyone know for sure?

Yeah, maybe they will appeal. I just hope not. Or if they do, that it is a short appeal (yeah right).

[wolferine]

And you can bet if the NCAA increases the punishment any more than what the self imposed, they will appeal.

For cripes sakes this all came out because they were appealing the 5 game suspensions given to the players before the Sugar bowl. And they had agreed to that.

So are you saying if they appeal again then more violations will be found out?

I agree. The more they dig, the more skeletons they will find at OSU. If they appeal again they may well end up with more offenses that will result in the death penalty.

[donny5k]

So are you saying if they appeal again then more violations will be found out?

I agree. The more they dig, the more skeletons they will find at OSU. If they appeal again they may well end up with more offenses that will result in the death penalty.

That's the spirit!

[Keep It Real, Yo]

Just heard that osu is not returning the sugar bowl money. Do schools normally keep the money for a bowl when an entire season is vacated likethis so closely to the completion of the season? Or is this type of quick vacating sorta unprecedented?

They shouldn't have to give that back. The network got their money off ads, people paid to see the games.

What'd be cool is if when a season is vacated then all tickets are refunded.

[wolferine]

That's the spirit!

:tup:

[Whiskey]

That's the spirit!

:iatp:

[greenman]

I don't think OSU will appeal.

From The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2011/07/08/gene-smith-speaks-about-ncaa-tressel.html):

Ohio State athletics director Gene Smith said today that he believes the school's self-imposed NCAA sanctions are sufficient to ward off further penalties.

Smith termed Ohio State's decision to vacate all victories from the 2010 season a significant penalty. He said that if the NCAA adds penalties such as scholarship reductions or a bowl ban, he would want the school to challenge those sanctions, assuming no other damaging information comes to light.

"I'll be shocked and disappointed and on the offensive," Smith said. "Unless something new arises from where we are today, it'll be behavior (from me) you haven't witnessed."

Asked if that meant he was confident the NCAA would not come down harder on Ohio State, Smith replied, "I'm not saying I feel confident. What I'm saying is if they go that far as far as scholarship losses and things of that nature, I'm going to battle those hard."

Yeah, they will appeal if the NCAA gives them anything more.

[DanielSong39]

At least Michigan's losing streak vs. Ohio St. goes back to 6...

[Irish Blues]

At least Michigan's losing streak vs. Ohio St. goes back to 6...

:rofl:

[wolferine]

At least Michigan's losing streak vs. Ohio St. goes back to 6...

Ha ha. If they vacate last year, then they forfeit or lose. Michigan is on a one year winning streak.

And I would be shocked if the OSU doesn't lose scholarships for Tressel's not reporting violations.

How exactly have they been punished with their self-imposed punishments? Smith and Gee should be fired too.

[Actuary321]

Sorry, a vacated win does not give the opposing team the win. They still have a loss, but the winning team does not get a win.

So Michigan still has their losing streak going. But Ohio State does not have their winning streak in place.

Pretty funny actually.

[wolferine]

Sorry, a vacated win does not give the opposing team the win. They still have a loss, but the winning team does not get a win.

Every game has a winner and a loser. OSU lost. They used inelligible players.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

Every game has a winner and a loser. OSU lost. They used inelligible players.

Not in this case. The game didn't happen.

[wolferine]

Not in this case. The game didn't happen.

It happened. Penalty for cheating is losing.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

I'm standing by my "only one reply to a troll" policy. I've said my peace.

[wolferine]

I'm standing by my "only one reply to a troll" policy. I've said my peace.

Are you vacating this post? It looks like a reply to me. Guess I win.

[Actuary321]

The exodus begins. (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6757559/ohio-state-buckeyes-2012-recruit-kyle-kalis-now-headed-michigan-wolverines?campaign=rss&source=NCFHeadlines)

But does this statement make any sense at all?

"I can't go there (Ohio State) and take penalties for something I never did," Kalis told ESPN.com on Monday. "Ohio State is a great program. I'm just not sure how long it will take them to recover. I want a solid, grounded coaching staff with a safe environment. Where there aren't such tough questions."

Isn't Michigan under sanctions or just coming off of them? Or did their extra practice time not merit punishment?

[Actuary321]

Are you vacating this post? It looks like a reply to me. Guess I win.Yeah, just like Michigan 'won' the Ohio State game last year. :rofl:

[wolferine]

Yeah, just like Michigan 'won' the Ohio State game last year. :rofl:

Sure did. They didn't use 5 inelligible players so they won. It's not pretty to win by DQ but at least we didn't cheat.

[Actuary321]

From the Big 10 stand point and NCAA stand point, I see this as a win/win.

[Brutè]

Sure did. They didn't use 5 inelligible players so they won. It's not pretty to win by DQ but at least we didn't cheat.
:viola:

[Irish Blues]

Ha ha. If they vacate last year, then they forfeit or lose. Michigan is on a one year winning streak.
USC vacated their BCS win over Oklahoma - but Oklahoma did not suddenly get credit for a win and the BCS championship. As pointed out, Oklahoma still is credited with a loss. Go through NCAA history and see how this works; when one team's wins are vacated, the other team's loss is not erased. If the game was a forfeit, you'd be correct in that Michigan would get credit for a win [and tOSU would get tagged with a loss] ... but that's not what happened.

2/10 for the trolling effort; given that you fail miserably to understand how it works when one team's wins are vacated it's hard to give anything more.

[Actuary321]

:link: (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2011-07-15-jim-tressel-ohio-state-unacceptable-review_n.htm)

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — An evaluation of former Ohio State football coach Jim Tressel (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Sports+Coaches,+Team+Owners,+Execs,+Officials/NCAA/Jim+Tressel)'s job performance in 2005-06 rated him as "unacceptable" when it came to self-reporting rules violations in a timely manner.
...

[keyser soze]

Sure did. They didn't use 5 inelligible players so they won. It's not pretty to win by DQ but at least we didn't cheat.

Only because the NCAA hasn't been nosing around Ann Arbor. If they did, I'm sure they'd come up with something.

[egg]

You mean other than when they were there 18 months ago?

[Actuary321]

Like they practice too much and still can't seem to beat any good teams?

[willel2338]

Considering everything we know now, it seems to me that tOSU played this as perfectly as they could have given the situation.





Tressel knew about it and didn't tell anyone at tOSU, so he's gone, but by administratively changing his paperwork to say "retired" instead of "fired" or "resigned", the "senator" gets to keep his taxpayer paid retirement benefits and health insurance and pension for the rest of his life. It's an early retirement for a millionaire and even the $250,000 fine that was self-imposed has since been rescinded, since he's no longer the coach. [I would bet dollars to donuts that Tressel also signed a non-disclosure agreement with the school. Afterall, nobody in Columbus wants to see his "tell-all book" hit the shelf five years from now!!]

Of course, Tressel could have avoided all of this had he simply printed the e-mail, taken it to his compliance office and then deleted it, so he could later claim that he never read it and must have deleted it by accident... plausible deniability would have worked for him. He could have sacrificed 2010 and had a great team in 2011,2012,2013, etc.

Nonetheless, Tressel isn't getting the punishment he deserves, but the NCAA appears to have bought the story. The school gets to save face and say it cut out the cancer by releasing Tressel and at the same time they get to throw him a quiet retirement party. It's PR genius.

Question: What does it take for a successful football coach to get fired at tOSU?
Answer: you might get fired at tOSU if you sucker punch an opposing player in the stomach during a bowl game, but even then they will still name streets and buildings after you!




Pryor is the "ringleader" [according to Tressel's interview with OSU and NCAA]. He's also the sacrificial lamb and he's gone too. Does the fan base care? Was Pryor really that good anyway? I, for one, was never impressed. He certainly wasn't anything like sCam Newton or VY. [I wouldn't be shocked if the newcomer they have turns out to be better than Pryor anyway..]




The remaining four guys who actually broke minor NCAA bylaws will sit for five meaningless games this fall, but who cares? Everybody remembers tOSU beat Michigan [again] and everyone remembers they beat Arkansas on the field. In public perception, I have a feeling nobody cares that they used dirty players, just as everyone remembers USC won a national championship a few years ago that the NCAA tried to take away. [Nobody considers 2004 Oklahoma or Auburn a national champion just as nobody thinks Arkansas beat Ohio State.] Besides, I doubt anyone thinks Arkansas and Petrino are squeaky clean, :lol: All anyone takes away from the Sugar Bowl is that Ryan Mallett threw another INT right when his team needed him the most...to a freaking defensive lineman at that!




All the stuff about the vehicles and improper benefits there became essentially moot when the Ohio BMV released an 80+ page report that detailed the profits+losses on the car deals in question were consistent with other deals made to non-athletes. It's hard for the NCAA to question an official report from a state entity when they don't really have investigative power.




All the stories about the $100 handshakes and the cash-for-memorabilia allegations have disappeared, mostly because nobody is willing to go on the record about it [other than disgruntled Ray Small who is discredited and can produce no evidence]. This isn't a crime, nor a civil violation, so authorities don't care and the NCAA has no subpoena power. I would surmise that anybody who can prove anything has been bought off by the school's boosters, effectively silencing the rumors for a while. Anybody involved in college football has heard stories about what happens in Columbus, Ohio, but nobody has ever proven anything beyond a rumor.

In most places, where there's this type of smoke, they eventually find fire. In Columbus, where there's smoke, all anyone ever finds is more smoke... As a Bama fan, I'm downright jealous of how quickly and how well tOSU was able to put out the fires.




tOSU lowballed the NCAA, by self-imposing only the most obviously necessary penalties... In a game of chicken, the NCAA appears unwilling to risk facing an appeal over this matter with nothing in their hand other than allegations.

[Actuary321]

:link: (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Ohio-State-bans-Terrelle-Pryor-to-the-benefit-o?urn=ncaaf-wp4185)

Pryor got the boot, he didn't just leave the team. And he is banned from any contact with tOSU athletics for 5 years.

But Tressel will probably get his sweater-vest retired during a game this year.

[wolferine]

:link: (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Ohio-State-bans-Terrelle-Pryor-to-the-benefit-o?urn=ncaaf-wp4185)

Pryor got the boot, he didn't just leave the team. And he is banned from any contact with tOSU athletics for 5 years.

But Tressel will probably get his sweater-vest retired during a game this year.

Disagree.

It also shows that Pryor's decision to leave school in June, which seemed voluntary, was ultimately forced by the school.

He left, voluntarily. He declared pro and got an agent. Months later his agent gets a letter from tOSU so he can meet requirement for supplemental draft? Looks like Pryor is skirting rules once again. He should have to sit out until the next draft.

[Actuary321]

Well, I think you are right in that he left voluntarily and then had to go back and ask tOSU for a letter saying he was actually not eligible and tOSU used the fact that he hadn't cooperated with NCAA investigators as the reason for indicating he would not be reinstated.

Which I thought was pretty obvious in the letter so I didn't understand why the author of the blog post was wondering just what it was that Pryor had done to get the penalty tOSU gave him. Did he do more? Probably but no one is going to say anything and get the University in more trouble. But a 5 year ban seemed a bit excessive for not talking with the NCAA.

And not talking was probably a good thing for tOSU, I would have thought they would just give him a slap on the wrist 1 or 2 year ban. I wonder if someone was ticked that he left and upped it to 5?

[Actuary321]

:oops:

:link: (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6836665/ohio-state-buckeyes-confiscate-players-jim-tressel-wristbands?campaign=rss&source=NCFHeadlines)

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Two days after several Ohio State (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/194/ohio-state-buckeyes) freshmen proudly displayed wristbands supporting deposed Buckeyes coach Jim Tressel, the university has taken them away and refunded the players' money.

Ohio State spokesman Jerry Emig said Friday that officials wondered if wearing the wristbands -- which said "JT" -- could be an NCAA violation.
"We don't know that yet, but that's what compliance is looking into," Emig said.
Because Ohio State goes before the NCAA's Committee on Infractions Aug. 12, it also might appear that the school remains firmly behind a coach who was forced out May 30.
Tressel was pressured to resign when it was revealed he knew some of his players had broken NCAA rules and he did not report it for more than nine months.
"There was a concern that maybe this isn't a thing that should have been done," Emig said of the wristbands, which were worn by several freshmen at a news conference Wednesday.
He added that Ohio State decided to take a "cautionary" approach after the wristbands, which were sold by an Ohio State staffer, were mentioned prominently in several media reports. After turning in their wristbands, players were refunded $15 for each wristband.
Emig said interim head coach Luke Fickell was unaware that a staffer had sold the wristbands.:lol:

[wolferine]

Isn't $15 for a used wristband an improper inducement?

If I buy a wristband, wear it for a few days and then sell it, would fair value be like $7? I would think the depreciation on wristbands would be high. Looks like OSU overpaid the athletes for used wristbands.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

The hearing on infractions is Friday.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

The hearing is over. The NCAA is supposed to announce if there are any additional penalties within six weeks.

[Actuary321]

I was perusing some old threads and came across this post by someone no longer here.

Former Ohio State Head Coach John Cooper, speaking at the Knoxville Quarterback Club today, didn't mince any words. He called for the NCAA Death Penalty for both Alabama and Kentucky for their part in the Memphis
high school football slave trade.

Cooper, who won more Big 10 games in his tenure than any other coach, said his OSU assistants were quoted a price for Albert Means when they went to his high school coach, who is now under federal criminal indictment. He instructed his coaches to back off immediately. He said he told all his
assistants at Tulsa, Arizona State, and OSU, that if they knowingly violated an NCAA rule, they would be immediately fired. This is the same rule that U.T. has had in effect for years.

Cooper said that it has been common knowledge for many years that Memphis
high school coaches have been engaging in slave trading, shopping their players to the highest bidder. He said he was amazed that the bidding got as high as $200,000 for Means, who now plays at Memphis. He also said it was very well known among the coaching fraternity that Alabama and Kentucky
have been buying players for quite some time.

He also said that if a school has a strong President, Athletics Director, and Head Coach, who all make it clear that they will not tolerate NCAA violations, they will not happen. Obviously, the Dubose and Mummy regimes were both rotten to the core.

Cooper made it clear that he felt like the NCAA should "lock up both those programs." His emphatic statements were very insightful. He also expressed an interest in the Vanderbilt job should it become open this year.Did John Cooper ever make any comments on Tressel's situation at tOSU?

[Actuary321]

So Tressel gets a job in the NFL then the Colts get blowback about his players having to sit out suspensions even in the NFL so the Colts 'suspend' him for 6 games.:shake:

[Mick Fan]

So Tressel gets a job in the NFL then the Colts get blowback about his players having to sit out suspensions even in the NFL so the Colts 'suspend' him for 6 games.:shake:

Yes, but the case that he made is that Tressel was already "suspended" without pay for the rest of his OSU career ... he was fired, for goodness sakes. Tressel (deservedly) lost the most in this whole thing. Personally, adding this six-game suspension feel like a little piling on to me.

[Whiskey]

Yes, but the case that he made is that Tressel was already "suspended" without pay for the rest of his OSU career ... he was fired, for goodness sakes. Tressel (deservedly) lost the most in this whole thing. Personally, adding this six-game suspension feel like a little piling on to me.

According to ohio state, Tresssl retired. He wasn't fired at all. Still.gets his pension and everything.

[Keep It Real, Yo]

So Tressel gets a job in the NFL then the Colts get blowback about his players having to sit out suspensions even in the NFL so the Colts 'suspend' him for 6 games.:shake:

:shrug:

If the NFL is going to suspend Pryor, then why not Tressel?

[Actuary321]

So who has the most players suspended for this weeks game? tOSU or Miami? :lol:

[donny5k]

OSU does. The 3 players suspended for taking $200 are still not reinstated. Not exactly in line with the several Miami players in the most recent scandal getting 1 game suspensions.

Jacory Harris got 1 game for taking $140, 3 Buckeyes players still aren't reinstated after 2 games for taking $200. It would be nice if this was clarified.

[SharksFan08]

OSU does. The 3 players suspended for taking $200 are still not reinstated. Not exactly in line with the several Miami players in the most recent scandal getting 1 game suspensions.

Jacory Harris got 1 game for taking $140, 3 Buckeyes players still aren't reinstated after 2 games for taking $200. It would be nice if this was clarified.

OSU also got to play all those guys in last year's bowl game, when they probably shouldn't have. :shrug:

[donny5k]

OSU also got to play all those guys in last year's bowl game, when they probably shouldn't have. :shrug:

Independent cases... also voided the win and gave back the money. Just waiting for NCAA's response, not sure how mistakenly taking money at a charity event thinking it was cleared and you were "working" is 3 times worse than knowingly taking impermissible benefits (similar $ amount) from a sleazy booster. Not defending the players' actions, just wondering why the punishment is so harsh.

[Whiskey]

Independent cases... also voided the win and gave back the money. Just waiting for NCAA's response, not sure how mistakenly taking money at a charity event thinking it was cleared and you were "working" is 3 times worse than knowingly taking impermissible benefits (similar $ amount) from a sleazy booster. Not defending the players' actions, just wondering why the punishment is so harsh.
Answer is because of past failure to report violations accurately.

Unfortunately for these players they are getting punished and investigated with a higher degree of scrutiny because of the recent failings of OSU's compliance department in monitoring athletes. I don't blame the NCAA for not taking what OSU has said as the truth based on the recent under reporting of violations.

Where there is smoke there is fire, and the NCAA wants to know if this is all that these players have done.

[donny5k]

Not exactly true, looks like the reason for the 2nd game had more to do with the fact that the players were educated (after tat-gate) and still screwed up. But now they are (rightfully) reinstated for the Miami game.

[greenman]

Seems like small potatoes now, but OSU is facing the dreaded "failure to monitor" charge:

NCAA: Ohio State faces failure to monitor charge (http://www.buckeyextra.com/content/stories/2011/11/10/ohio-state-ncaa.html)

In a signal that tougher penalties likely loom, the NCAA has notified Ohio State University that it is facing a charge of failing to monitor its violation-plagued football program.

Failure to monitor is the second-worst finding the NCAA can impose on an athletic program.

Ohio State announced the NCAA findings this afternoon and that it would cut five scholarships over a three-year period beginning next year. The NCAA allows football programs to have 85 scholarship players.

The NCAA previously had notified OSU that it was not being accused of failure to monitor or the worst charge — loss of institutional control.

The NCAA’s move to invoke the charge now means that the NCAA considers the violations committed by Ohio State to stem from a central problem, rather than individual misdeed.

Despite the ongoing problems, Ohio State officials have insisted that the athletic compliance program directed by Doug Archie is “cutting edge” and among the best in the nation.

[The Drunken Actuary]

Oh, wait, this was that thing where some players traded some of their own trinkets for tattoos? Yeah, that's pretty serious. They should fire the coach like they did to that coach that covered up the pedophile on his staff.