POKER: What would you do?

[Expunge]

PokerStars Game #231836100: Tournament #774291, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2004/01/03 - 20:13:18 (ET)
Table '774291 1' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: Carlie-Boo (715 in chips)
Seat 3: myguard (3750 in chips)
Seat 4: Bill47 (2920 in chips)
Seat 7: SP0NGE (1965 in chips)
Seat 9: Daddyfatsacs (4150 in chips)
Bill47: posts small blind 25
SP0NGE: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SP0NGE [Kh 3s]
Daddyfatsacs: calls 50
Carlie-Boo: folds
myguard: folds
Bill47: calls 25
SP0NGE: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts 3d 3c]
Bill47: bets 50
SP0NGE: calls 50
Daddyfatsacs: calls 50
*** TURN *** [Ts 3d 3c] [Tc]
Bill47: checks
SP0NGE: bets 150
Daddyfatsacs: folds
Bill47: raises 150 to 300
SP0NGE: calls 150
*** RIVER *** [Ts 3d 3c Tc] [Kd]
Bill47: bets 1600

[fallout]

fold.

I woulda bet big on the flop. This would have lost me more chips, but I woulda done it before that second 10 came.

[Bama Gambler]

On the flop I would raise his 50 bet. Prob to 250. If he comes over the top I call. If he just calls then I can put him on a T. So when the turn comes a T you can fold to any bet and check behind him if he checks. Think about it from his position. He could limp with a lot of hands from the small blind. Now if he has a weak T he will bet the flop (which he did). When you just call he must put you on a T or two over cards. Now he checks the turn and you bet. But your bet shows weakness so he raises. When you just call he is pretty sure you don't have a T. Now he feels fine betting you all-in on the river. You put yourself in this bad position by slowplaying the flop.

[fallout]

Something I am quickly learning, just calling is usually a bad move.

[Castle7]

I have a hand for the experts out there. As I said before, I am a stud player, but, given HoldEm's popularity, I am trying to break into NL HoldEm. (Playing 5 dollar buy-in tourneys) Please judge my opponents play also as I am not sure he played correctly either...

PS - Bama, after reading it many times, I borrowed your standard raise, works great, thanks!

This is the 2nd hand of a one table tourney (start 1500 chips), I am the BB, with 5d 6d. There is a 2x BB raise from the 3rd man in, 4 callers, so I decided it was worth it to call since i knew no one could raise behind me. Flop:
5c 6c Th. I bet 500 thinking I flopped a winner, 3rd from button guy calls, all else fold.
Turn: Qs
I figure my opponent had two overs on the flop or maybe a T since he just called, so I go all-in, he calls, and flips over AA.
River: Ad -> I'm outta there!

Looking back, before the river, he had 8 outs 3T's, 3Q's, and 2A's and 44 cards unseen, which makes me a significant favorite, but I would still like to know what both of us SHOULD have done. Thanks!

[Sotally Tober]

Definitely would have played my trips faster. A definite (big) raising position. If I have trips, especially with an over card out there that may have paired someone up, I can't let a free card fall that could hurt me...another 10, or even a J, Q, K or A that could give someone a straight draw that they may just draw at.

[Castle7]

Another question, as it just occured to me...
When you say 3x BB raise, and the BB is say 20, does that mean you raise 60 to 80 or 40 to 60 so that the total is 3x BB?

[Sotally Tober]

I have a hand for the experts out there. As I said before, I am a stud player, but, given HoldEm's popularity, I am trying to break into NL HoldEm. (Playing 5 dollar buy-in tourneys) Please judge my opponents play also as I am not sure he played correctly either...

PS - Bama, after reading it many times, I borrowed your standard raise, works great, thanks!

This is the 2nd hand of a one table tourney (start 1500 chips), I am the BB, with 5d 6d. There is a 2x BB raise from the 3rd man in, 4 callers, so I decided it was worth it to call since i knew no one could raise behind me. Flop:
5c 6c Th. I bet 500 thinking I flopped a winner, 3rd from button guy calls, all else fold.
Turn: Qs
I figure my opponent had two overs on the flop or maybe a T since he just called, so I go all-in, he calls, and flips over AA.
River: Ad -> I'm outta there!

Looking back, before the river, he had 8 outs 3T's, 3Q's, and 2A's and 44 cards unseen, which makes me a significant favorite, but I would still like to know what both of us SHOULD have done. Thanks!

You gotta like your chances after the flop & turn. This is precisely the kind of hand you'd want, w/pot odds, to bust AA. Sometimes, the river just gets you.

After the flop:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6d 5d 702 70.91 288 29.09 0 0.00 0.709
Ac Ah 288 29.09 702 70.91 0 0.00 0.291

After the turn:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6d 5d 36 81.82 8 18.18 0 0.00 0.818
Ac Ah 8 18.18 36 81.82 0 0.00 0.182

[vegas]

This is the 2nd hand of a one table tourney (start 1500 chips), I am the BB, with 5d 6d. There is a 2x BB raise from the 3rd man in, 4 callers

This is enough for me to fold.

Now, since you stayed in an floped 2 pair, I understand why you would want to bet, but that T had to scare you. Your 500 bet makes sense, and his call indicates some weekness (although he had to be happy with his AA after that flop). I do not know why he didn;t re-raise you there. Anyways, after the turn, the TQ has to be a concern. He has stayed in for a reason and called a fairly strong bet of yours already. Since you are still in, you need to bet this, and bet it strong, but I would not push all in at this point. If he re-raises you can get out. If not, he shows weekness again. He stays in, and catches the river. Oh well. Fact is, he called two tough bets with the lesser hand. In the long run, this was not solid play on his part, but in the short run, he got lucky.

[Expunge]

I agree about not slowplaying the trips for the reason that the T may come, less worried about J, Q, A. (why don't i always follow my advice about slowplaying?) I'd love to see a K come and him be on a straight draw, cause then i'm a lock. I'm actually quite thankful that he raised my 150 bet to 300, that gave me a pretty good indication he had the T, I'm more worried about what would have happened if he just called that bet. would i have known enough that he a decent chance at having the T, either get out of a big bet on the river, or even just check to a showdown instead of getting trapped?

Anyways after thinking about the hand for a bit i told him i was folding K3 to him and did. The sng tourney proceeded and he came in third i came in second. I asked if he had it when he got knocked out and he said he did, however i don't know for sure if he did.

btw, Vegas do you read weakness in every bet? Or just non all in bets?

[Bama Gambler]

I have a hand for the experts out there. As I said before, I am a stud player, but, given HoldEm's popularity, I am trying to break into NL HoldEm. (Playing 5 dollar buy-in tourneys) Please judge my opponents play also as I am not sure he played correctly either...

PS - Bama, after reading it many times, I borrowed your standard raise, works great, thanks!

This is the 2nd hand of a one table tourney (start 1500 chips), I am the BB, with 5d 6d. There is a 2x BB raise from the 3rd man in, 4 callers, so I decided it was worth it to call since i knew no one could raise behind me. Flop:
5c 6c Th. I bet 500 thinking I flopped a winner, 3rd from button guy calls, all else fold.
Turn: Qs
I figure my opponent had two overs on the flop or maybe a T since he just called, so I go all-in, he calls, and flips over AA.
River: Ad -> I'm outta there!

Looking back, before the river, he had 8 outs 3T's, 3Q's, and 2A's and 44 cards unseen, which makes me a significant favorite, but I would still like to know what both of us SHOULD have done. Thanks!The call preflop is fine. In fact folding here preflop is DEAD wrong. On the flop the pot is 5x40 = 200. I think 500 may be a bit too much. Of course you want people to pay to draw to the flush or over cards, but don't get carried away. Bottom two pair against a field of 4 is not the nuts, especially since there is a flush draw. Lots of bad players will call the 500 on a flush draw. Now if the flush card comes on the turn you have lost 1/3 of your stack. I would bet 200 hoping someone in late position would raise so that I could go over the top. Now someone in-between can't call with a flush draw. If I lose to TT then so be it. If one or two players just call my 200 and a scare card (flush card or Ace) doesn't come on the turn then I'm pushing all-in.

Now the guy with AA played the hand horribly. He should have raised much more preflop. Even if he was first in he should raise more than 2x.

[I Pity the Fool]

Am I totally missing something, or wouldn't he need either pocket 10's or 10-K to win? I didn't see anything that would strongly indicate he had either of those.

[vegas]

.

btw, Vegas do you read weakness in every bet? Or just non all in bets?

Generally I read weekness in checks. Of course one could be checking to trap you, but that will generally come out as soon as you place a bet (he will re-raise).

This is just a general rule. Each hand is unique and has to played to its unique characteristics. However, over the long run I view checks as a sign of weekness. In any individual hand, this is certainly not the case. Also, for seasoned pros, checking can be a great weapon.

I forget what book it was that said (paraphrased), "If your hand is good enough to check, it is good enough to bet."

[Bama Gambler]

I forget what book it was that said (paraphrased), "If your hand is good enough to check, it is good enough to bet."If you read that in a book, then throw that book away. Maybe the book said, "If your hand is good enough to call, then it is good enough to bet." Remember when you bet there is two ways to win (everyone folds or you have the best hand), but when you call there is only one way to win.

[vegas]

The call preflop is fine. In fact folding here preflop is DEAD wrong.

Please explain. You have one better, 4 callers and a starting hand not in the top 42. What about this hand tells you to call? I am curious as to the different points of view here.

[Bama Gambler]

Am I totally missing something, or wouldn't he need either pocket 10's or 10-K to win? I didn't see anything that would strongly indicate he had either of those.Any hand with a T would win. Remeber you don't have to play both of your hole cards. With a board of T33TK he only needs one ten in his hand to have TTT33.

[Expunge]

Now the guy with AA played the hand horribly. He should have raised much more preflop. Even if he was first in he should raise more than 2x.

Being the 2nd hand of the tourney the 2x raise is definately too weak on AA, people don't have a read on you yet, plus the Average stack to BB is huge.

Late in the tourney i would like the standard raise, likely 2x or 2.5x. AA is a hand that you want preflop action on, and not settle for just the blinds. Thats why a standard raise is good.

[Bama Gambler]

The call preflop is fine. In fact folding here preflop is DEAD wrong.

Please explain. You have one better, 4 callers and a starting hand not in the top 42. What about this hand tells you to call? I am curious as to the different points of view here.
In this situation I would call with almost any hand. Maybe even 72. Now I can't recommend this to any player. I feel I play well after the flop. I can fold a strong hand if I have to. But the great thing about a hand like 56s is it's usually easy to play. Plus it's hard for anyone to put you on that hand. You either flop two pair, trips, str, or flush or you are done. You are only risking 20 to win A LOT. You could double up or more. When you flop two pair with 56 it's hard for AA to put you on that hand. Which is exactly why his raise preflop is wrong. If had raised to 100, then when the flop comes 56T he only has to fear TT.

[Expunge]

.

btw, Vegas do you read weakness in every bet? Or just non all in bets?

Generally I read weekness in checks. Of course one could be checking to trap you, but that will generally come out as soon as you place a bet (he will re-raise).

This is just a general rule. Each hand is unique and has to played to its unique characteristics. However, over the long run I view checks as a sign of weekness. In any individual hand, this is certainly not the case. Also, for seasoned pros, checking can be a great weapon.

I forget what book it was that said (paraphrased), "If your hand is good enough to check, it is good enough to bet."

Not sure either, and I'm guessing its a limit book too... And that the comment is quallified as Check-Call is good enough to bet, where as Check-Fold is not good enough to bet.

[Expunge]

I have a hand for the experts out there. As I said before, I am a stud player, but, given HoldEm's popularity, I am trying to break into NL HoldEm. (Playing 5 dollar buy-in tourneys) Please judge my opponents play also as I am not sure he played correctly either...

PS - Bama, after reading it many times, I borrowed your standard raise, works great, thanks!

This is the 2nd hand of a one table tourney (start 1500 chips), I am the BB, with 5d 6d. There is a 2x BB raise from the 3rd man in, 4 callers, so I decided it was worth it to call since i knew no one could raise behind me. Flop:
5c 6c Th. I bet 500 thinking I flopped a winner, 3rd from button guy calls, all else fold.
Turn: Qs
I figure my opponent had two overs on the flop or maybe a T since he just called, so I go all-in, he calls, and flips over AA.
River: Ad -> I'm outta there!

Looking back, before the river, he had 8 outs 3T's, 3Q's, and 2A's and 44 cards unseen, which makes me a significant favorite, but I would still like to know what both of us SHOULD have done. Thanks!

I use a semi standard raise...

Early in tournaments it can be as high as 5x, but usually 4x. Near the end of the tournament it often falls to 2x. It depends on my stack, the size of the blinds, and the average stack. With that said, on a specific hand if the additional amount required to force anyone, including myself, all in is within 1x the bet is adjusted to do so.

[Bama Gambler]

Another question, as it just occured to me...
When you say 3x BB raise, and the BB is say 20, does that mean you raise 60 to 80 or 40 to 60 so that the total is 3x BB?raise 40 to 60.

[Expunge]

The call preflop is fine. In fact folding here preflop is DEAD wrong.

Please explain. You have one better, 4 callers and a starting hand not in the top 42. What about this hand tells you to call? I am curious as to the different points of view here.
In this situation I would call with almost any hand. Maybe even 72. Now I can't recommend this to any player. I feel I play well after the flop. I can fold a strong hand if I have to. But the great thing about a hand like 56s is it's usually easy to play. Plus it's hard for anyone to put you on that hand. You either flop two pair, trips, str, or flush or you are done. You are only risking 20 to win A LOT. You could double up or more. When you flop two pair with 56 it's hard for AA to put you on that hand. Which is exactly why his raise preflop is wrong. If had raised to 100, then when the flop comes 56T he only has to fear TT.

Agreed, remember you're not risking 20 for 200, you're risking 20 to see a flop, if the full house or str flush come, you will win much more than 200.

[Bama Gambler]

Agreed, remember you're not risking 20 for 200, you're risking 20 to see a flop, if the full house or str flush come, you will win much more than 200.or two pair or trips or str or flush (maybe)

[Expunge]

Another question, as it just occured to me...
When you say 3x BB raise, and the BB is say 20, does that mean you raise 60 to 80 or 40 to 60 so that the total is 3x BB?raise 40 to 60.

If both you and your opponent have many chips i also like to make this standard 3x raise on the flop / turn. He bets 150 I like to raise 300 to 450. This to me says as much of, I have a great hand and want you to call, as much as it shows weakness for not going all in.

[Expunge]

Agreed, remember you're not risking 20 for 200, you're risking 20 to see a flop, if the full house or str flush come, you will win much more than 200.or two pair or trips or str or flush (maybe)

Yes the (maybe is important) too many hands can beat you with 2 pair, trips, straight, or flush. The straight with no possiblity of higher straight and no flush potential being another very good outcome. 5 people seeing the flop doesn't tell me that making the flush is good.

[I Pity the Fool]

Am I totally missing something, or wouldn't he need either pocket 10's or 10-K to win? I didn't see anything that would strongly indicate he had either of those.Any hand with a T would win. Remeber you don't have to play both of your hole cards. With a board of T33TK he only needs one ten in his hand to have TTT33.
Yeah, I definitely thought KK333 beat TTT33. :oops: I'm amazed I've never run into a situation like that in a game.... it's a good thing I'm learning this now.

[vegas]

I forget what book it was that said (paraphrased), "If your hand is good enough to check, it is good enough to bet."If you read that in a book, then throw that book away. Maybe the book said, "If your hand is good enough to call, then it is good enough to bet." Remember when you bet there is two ways to win (everyone folds or you have the best hand), but when you call there is only one way to win.

Sorry, I meant good enough to call (not check).

[Expunge]

full house vs full house uses what the 3 of a kind part is as first tie break, and the pair part as a second tie break.

[Castle7]

Another question, as it just occured to me...
When you say 3x BB raise, and the BB is say 20, does that mean you raise 60 to 80 or 40 to 60 so that the total is 3x BB?raise 40 to 60.

Good. That is what I meant by it too. I called only another 20 to see the flop.

[vegas]

The call preflop is fine. In fact folding here preflop is DEAD wrong.

Please explain. You have one better, 4 callers and a starting hand not in the top 42. What about this hand tells you to call? I am curious as to the different points of view here.
In this situation I would call with almost any hand. Maybe even 72. Now I can't recommend this to any player. I feel I play well after the flop. I can fold a strong hand if I have to. But the great thing about a hand like 56s is it's usually easy to play. Plus it's hard for anyone to put you on that hand. You either flop two pair, trips, str, or flush or you are done. You are only risking 20 to win A LOT. You could double up or more. When you flop two pair with 56 it's hard for AA to put you on that hand. Which is exactly why his raise preflop is wrong. If had raised to 100, then when the flop comes 56T he only has to fear TT.

So you call because the raise is not very much to invest in a flop? I guess it makes some sense to me, but this starting hand is fairly weak, and you already have 5 people in the hand. I always find these low suited connectors tough. On one hand you could flop a flush, but the odds on favorite are that you will flop nothing worthy of a bet.

[Bama Gambler]

So you call because the raise is not very much to invest in a flop? I guess it makes some sense to me, but this starting hand is fairly weak, and you already have 5 people in the hand. I always find these low suited connectors tough. On one hand you could flop a flush, but the odds on favorite are that you will flop nothing worthy of a bet.Remember we are talking a tournament here where the blinds will increase every 15 minutes. It's important to give yourself a chance to win a big pot early when the blinds are small. I can't think of a better time than immediate odds of 10:1 and implied odd through the roof. If you are going to win these tournaments you have to take some chances when the price is right.

[Expunge]

The call preflop is fine. In fact folding here preflop is DEAD wrong.

Please explain. You have one better, 4 callers and a starting hand not in the top 42. What about this hand tells you to call? I am curious as to the different points of view here.
In this situation I would call with almost any hand. Maybe even 72. Now I can't recommend this to any player. I feel I play well after the flop. I can fold a strong hand if I have to. But the great thing about a hand like 56s is it's usually easy to play. Plus it's hard for anyone to put you on that hand. You either flop two pair, trips, str, or flush or you are done. You are only risking 20 to win A LOT. You could double up or more. When you flop two pair with 56 it's hard for AA to put you on that hand. Which is exactly why his raise preflop is wrong. If had raised to 100, then when the flop comes 56T he only has to fear TT.

So you call because the raise is not very much to invest in a flop? I guess it makes some sense to me, but this starting hand is fairly weak, and you already have 5 people in the hand. I always find these low suited connectors tough. On one hand you could flop a flush, but the odds on favorite are that you will flop nothing worthy of a bet.

Yeah but the times that you flop something will pay you off in the neighborhood of 1 in 100.

[Expunge]

but the odds on favorite are that you will flop nothing worthy of a bet.

This is also the beauty of the hand. It rarely makes you a 2nd best hand. 20 chips and after the flop you'll know almost immediately what to do.

[vegas]

So you call because the raise is not very much to invest in a flop? I guess it makes some sense to me, but this starting hand is fairly weak, and you already have 5 people in the hand. I always find these low suited connectors tough. On one hand you could flop a flush, but the odds on favorite are that you will flop nothing worthy of a bet.Remember we are talking a tournament here where the blinds will increase every 15 minutes. It's important to give yourself a chance to win a big pot early when the blinds are small. I can't think of a better time than immediate odds of 10:1 and implied odd through the roof. If you are going to win these tournaments you have to take some chances when the price is right.

Makes sense. In my limited action on one table tournaments, I have found the biggest downfall to be short stacked with only a handful of players left. Playing conservative consistently keeps me alive until 4 or 5 left, but then you have to make a move or the blinds will kill you.

Expunge, I agree that there is beauty in the fact that this hand rarely sets up as second best.

This gives me more to think about...............

[Castle7]

How large do you think a suited connector has to be before worthy of a pre-flop raise? TJs? QJs? T9s? something else?

[Expunge]

How large do you think a suited connector has to be before worthy of a pre-flop raise? TJs? QJs? T9s? something else?

Depends on opponents as well as position and how many limpers or other raisers are infront of you.

[IMP]

i'd fold

[vividox]

i'd fold

You really like digging up the old threads today, don't you?

That's a shitty board. I think you've got to fold it though, yeah.