Hypothetical version of my WPT bust hand

[Bama Gambler]

You have 4800 in chips

Blinds 100/200
Andy Bloch UTG+1 raises to 600
Two call
You get KK on the button and raise to 2000 (even though I now believe it's slightly better to go all-in here)
Andy just calls
The other two fold

Flop Axx (rainbow)
Andy checks

Your move?

[MountainHawk]

xx is pair, or just two unrelated cards?

[Bama Gambler]

xx is pair, or just two unrelated cards?just two rags (not paired). in other words, two cards like a 3 and an 8.

[Expunge]

I go all in instead of raise to 2000, i'm happy taking 600x3 + bb + sb.
If i raised to 2000, I must have been willing to fold to a bad flop and the ace in the flop, a bad flop. If i'm not willing to get away form the hand then going all in preflop is the move.

[Tim><]

Has Andy been stealing a lot of blinds? If not, he probably has an ace or a lower pair. Is this an NL tournament, or are you playing with real money. With real money, I might check here, but in a tournament style game, I would probably match the pot with my bet. If he has been stealing a lot of blinds, I would bet even more aggressively here.

[Bama Gambler]

I go all in instead of raise to 2000, i'm happy taking 600x3 + bb + sb.
If i raised to 2000, I must have been willing to fold to a bad flop and the ace in the flop, a bad flop. If i'm not willing to get away form the hand then going all in preflop is the move.Let's pretend you intended to go all-in preflop but accidentally made a string bet, first putting in 2000 then trying to put the rest of your chips in. The dealer said you had to pull the rest of your chips back. Now how do you play the flop?

[Hummer]

You have 4800 in chips

Blinds 100/200
Andy Bloch UTG+1 raises to 600
Two call
You get KK on the button and raise to 2000 (even though I now believe it's slightly better to go all-in here)
Andy just calls
The other two fold

Flop Axx (rainbow)
Andy checks

Your move?

I'm assuming Andy has $10,000 or so. I'm also ignoring the 2 callers of Andy's $600 raise in the real hand since you did not give us that information.

Andy raised 3x BB, indicating he has a strong hand. You come over the top telling him you have a very strong hand (most likely pocket Qs or higher). He simply calls. In the real hand, their were 2 others to act, so Aces would require a reraise. But in this situation, it's only you 2, so I don't think you can rule out Aces. He can afford to keep that information from you, and not ruin is tournament chances.

When he checks, I only see two options: check or go all-in. I rule out a small bet of $1,000, because it's less than 25% of the pot, and it doesn't give you any information if he calls. When getting knocked out of a tournament, I prefer to go out aggressive, as opposed to being bled down and having to play mediocre cards. I go all-in giving myself 2 ways to win, and a chance to be a spectator.

[MountainHawk]

OK. I still don't think I chase. Without another K, I'd fold to any bet.

[Bama Gambler]

Has Andy been stealing a lot of blinds? If not, he probably has an ace or a lower pair. Is this an NL tournament, or are you playing with real money. With real money, I might check here, but in a tournament style game, I would probably match the pot with my bet. If he has been stealing a lot of blinds, I would bet even more aggressively here.It's a NL tournament ($7500 buy-in). The average stack is around 9000 and there are around 180 players left. Top 27 get paid. Andy has around 15000 in chips. Remember you only have 2800 left after your raise.

[Bama Gambler]

OK. I still don't think I chase. Without another K, I'd fold to any bet.So you check the flop and then fold the turn if he bets? What if he checks the turn?

[vegas]

Interesting.....

By raising and then calling a re-raise pre-flop, Andy must have something, and Ax is a possibility. However, unless he had AK (unlikely given your cards) AJ, or Ax suited, I could not see him calling with an Ax. Therefore I probably conclude that he has a mid pair. When the flop comes Axx and he checks, I think of two scenarios:
1. either hit a set or does have the A, and he is trying to trap, or
2. his lower mid pair doesn't look so good anymore

With that, I would bet into him to see if he has something. Given that the scenarios in #1 are not far fetched (depending on the xx cards), I think a bet of $2,800 works for me. This is large enough that he will probably not call is he still needs help, but if he re-raises then you are probably beat and can save $2,000 to help you get back in the game.

Flame away

[Hummer]

With that, I would bet into him to see if he has something. Given that the scenarios in #1 are not far fetched (depending on the xx cards), I think a bet of $2,800 works for me. This is large enough that he will probably not call is he still needs help, but if he re-raises then you are probably beat and can save $2,000 to help you get back in the game.

Flame away

Bama only had $4,800 to start. He is down to $2,800 now. So a $2,000 bet leaves him with only $800.

[MountainHawk]

OK. I still don't think I chase. Without another K, I'd fold to any bet.So you check the flop and then fold the turn if he bets? What if he checks the turn?

I have to think he has the A with the initial bet. As long as he's willing to give free cards, I'll take them, but 2800 on a 200 BB isn't a killer situation, since you still have a number of hands before you are bled dry.

[Expunge]

I go all in instead of raise to 2000, i'm happy taking 600x3 + bb + sb.
If i raised to 2000, I must have been willing to fold to a bad flop and the ace in the flop, a bad flop. If i'm not willing to get away form the hand then going all in preflop is the move.Let's pretend you intended to go all-in preflop but accidentally made a string bet, first putting in 2000 then trying to put the rest of your chips in. The dealer said you had to pull the rest of your chips back. Now how do you play the flop?

Is this what happened on the cruise? Is this why you didn't go all in? Or were you simply afraid of someone have AA?

If i get called on the string bet scenario and the ace flops i think i check/fold the hand away. Too much risk that he had an A, or that he made his set. He's only going to call your bet if he has you beat. so now your betting regardless of your hand, and only on your read of him.

[Expunge]

2800 will keep you alive for a bit, and while you'll take a gamble or two preflop, i still like the chances of my future gamble, better that the chances he has an ace or a set in which case i'm down to two outs.

[Bama Gambler]

Is this what happened on the cruise? Is this why you didn't go all in? Or were you simply afraid of someone have AA?No. No. No. But let's discuss this in the other thread. Here I want to talk about this situation.

[3rookie]

I would bet 800. I would want him to think that I want him to call. Maybe he'd put me on AK and fold. Although he could put me on AK if I went all-in. I changed my mind. I'm all in (pretending I have AK).

Note: If I actually were playing, I have no idea what I would do, because there is no chance of me sitting down in such a high-stakes game. I'm not close to ready for it.

[Bama Gambler]

I posed this question to Freeman at lunch. We both had the same initial reaction - all-in. It didn't take Freeman 30 seconds to change his mind. Ok the pot is 6500 and you have 2800. Freeman and I both agree that you are committed to this pot. If you bet all-in on the flop Andy will only call you if you’re beat. So you check (I wouldn't worry too much about a free card here since if he doesn't already have a set the chances of him making one on the turn are very small - 2/45). Now your check shows weakness and Andy might bet the turn and you can pick off his bluff. If he checks the turn then you move in. Now he might call your all-in on the turn with a weaker hand (like QQ) since you checked the flop and he doesn't think you have an Ace.

This is very similar to river play in limit hold'em. If you think your opponent is drawing and missed his draw on the river, then you check to him (since he wouldn't call a bet anyways). Now he might bet trying to pick-up the pot and you gain a bet.

[Voter]

Personally I don't get the all-in craze. In SNG's anyway it seems that the last 3 people are the ones who did NOT go all-in easily - only with the nuts, or an extremely strong hand (and I don't consider KK with an A on the board to be a strong hand at all). Just my .02. Why are so many people so willing to bust out in a single hand?

[Expunge]

I posed this question to Freeman at lunch. We both had the same initial reaction - all-in. It didn't take Freeman 30 seconds to change his mind. Ok the pot is 6500 and you have 2800. Freeman and I both agree that you are committed to this pot. If you bet all-in on the flop Andy will only call you if you’re beat. So you check (I wouldn't worry too much about a free card here since if he doesn't already have a set the chances of him making one on the turn are very small - 2/45). Now your check shows weakness and Andy might bet the turn and you can pick off his bluff. If he checks the turn then you move in. Now he might call your all-in on the turn with a weaker hand (like QQ) since you checked the flop and he doesn't think you have an Ace.

This is very similar to river play in limit hold'em. If you think your opponent is drawing and missed his draw on the river, then you check to him (since he wouldn't call a bet anyways). Now he might bet trying to pick-up the pot and you gain a bet.

I agree with this analysis if and only if i was called on a string bet. The best play is still all in pre flop, i think this is significantly better than 2000. Good hypothetical but it requires a mistake prior to the situation arising.

[Bama Gambler]

Good hypothetical but it requires a mistake prior to the situation arising.You never make mistakes preflop? I do.

FWIW, I posted this in the 2+2 forum as well. A couple of players suggested all-in was best, but one really respected player preferred my play. All of them agree (Freeman as well) that my play was a close 2nd and that one caller with an under-pair is the idea result of the pre-flop play.

[Expunge]

Good hypothetical but it requires a mistake prior to the situation arising.You never make mistakes preflop? I do.

FWIW, I posted this in the 2+2 forum as well. A couple of players suggested all-in was best, but one really respected player preferred my play. All of them agree (Freeman as well) that my play was a close 2nd and that one caller with an under-pair is the idea result of the pre-flop play.

I make mistakes all the time. That's why i said said its a good hypothetical. I'm used to think more about optimal strategy from the start of the hand. This hypothetical will prolly get me into thinking about less than optimal situations anyways. I'll have to check the 2+2 forum when i get home.

[Maxprime]

Well you have to come on strong to scare everyone - half your chip count is pretty strong I would say. The all in play would keep you in the tourney - but you're getting blinds off it and nobody gets to the final table by just taking blinds when they're given KK. I say you made the right call.

[Expunge]

Well you have to come on strong to scare everyone - half your chip count is pretty strong I would say. The all in play would keep you in the tourney - but you're getting blinds off it and nobody gets to the final table by just taking blinds when they're given KK. I say you made the right call.

he's getting andys 600, first callers 600, second callers 600, a big blind of 200 a small blind of 100. for a profit of 2100 (7 rounds worth of blinds) an increase of close to 50% of his chip stack, take it and be greatful that you got that much action with such little risk.

[Bama Gambler]

I was moving my thread from Games to Poker forum and I stumbled across this thread. Above I mention a respected player from 2+2 that agreed with my 2000 raise pre-flop. His name is Greg Raymer (aka FossilMan 2004 WSOP Main Event Champion).

[Sotally Tober]

I was moving my thread from Games to Poker forum and I stumbled across this thread. Above I mention a respected player from 2+2 that agreed with my 2000 raise pre-flop. His name is Greg Raymer (aka FossilMan 2004 WSOP Main Event Champion).

Bragger. ;)

[Spidurman]

I was moving my thread from Games to Poker forum and I stumbled across this thread. Above I mention a respected player from 2+2 that agreed with my 2000 raise pre-flop. His name is Greg Raymer.

Sorry never heard of him

(that's the funny thing about Raymer - he's exactly the type of player who is dangerous in any huge field - very good, experienced player - but just one of the many who fits that catagory).