Playing Pocket Aces

[Hummer]

***** Hand History for Game 348316361 *****
100/200 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (PL) (TOURNAMENT 1990684) - THU JAN 22 22:22:01 EST 2004
Table Card Room Table 4661 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: jdhaccount (1910)
Seat 2: svarta (2040)
Seat 5: Hummer21 (1210)
Seat 6: berco24 (1415)
Seat 7: Brillo1 (680)
Seat 10: flutiegirl (745)
Hummer21 posts small blind (50)
berco24 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hummer21 [ Ad, Ac ]
Brillo1 folds.
flutiegirl calls (100)
jdhaccount folds.
svarta folds.
Hummer21 raises (250) to 300
berco24 calls (200)
flutiegirl calls (200)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Tc, Kh, 8c ]
Hummer21 bets (300)
berco24 raises (600) to 600
flutiegirl calls (445)
flutiegirl calls all-In.

Now what?

[11pecans]

you are against some of this: could be club draw, hi pair, trips or two pair

depends how you feel, call, fold or reraise

you are probably 2nd best.... fold

especially since you posted here for validation...lol

[Happy Extinction]

Fold or all in! I would lean towards all in, since you will only have 3xBB if you fold.

The only thing you are worried about is KT. Fluitie girl could have this since she sort of limped in, but i am guessing she floppped middle pair or is on a draw and is going all in becuase she doesn't have enough chips left. Berco24 is a little strange, but I am guessing he has KQo.

That's just me.

[11pecans]

pocket 8s or 10s is not out of the question for the big blind

[Happy Extinction]

Oooh, I always forget about low pocket pairs. And he would have 6xBB now that i do the math.

Also, it is more than likely that flutiegirl is out, giving you less competition. I like to get out of the way when two people are trying to knock each other out.

Also, we don't know what you know about either player. Has either player been playing especially loose or tight?

Now i don't know what I would do - has my 20 second timer gone off yet?

[foghorn]

I'm all in.

[Hummer]

Also, we don't know what you know about either player. Has either player been playing especially loose or tight?

Now i don't know what I would do - has my 20 second timer gone off yet?

I've pegged FlutieGirl as desparate. Third all-in in the past few hands. Survived one playing Ax offsuit to get to where she is chip count wise. I put her on Ax or 2 overs preflop.

Berco has played somewhat tight, but I have not seen too many showdowns (has shown cards when uncalled). He did bet strong once with top pair and a decent kicker despite flush and straight possibilities. I consider him to be an average player. eg - showing pocket cards when taking down pots.

[Happy Extinction]

Yeah, I am all in too.

[Hummer]

Anyone want to change the post-flop bet?

...or the SB pre-flop raise? Can't be higher since PL.

[foghorn]

Okay here's an amateur's take on it. They were very happy with the pocket cards to begin with, and didn't put you on aces even after your raise from the SB, thus the calls. Then when you raised after the turn, they saw it as you continuing to bluff against their pocket J's perhaps. flutiegirl could be on the flush draw or just desperate.
I think I'm still all-in.

[Bama Gambler]

I would have bet the pot instead of 300 on the flop.

[Hummer]

I would have bet the pot instead of 300 on the flop.

I agree with that play. I normally bet the pot unless it's all paint or a pair on the board. I was feeling gun shy from having Kings cracked earlier. Need to work on the short-term memory.

So I bet the pot? I may be able to take the pot down there, or possibly just get Flutie to call. If they both call themselves all-in, the hand plays to a showdown.

[foghorn]

I would have bet the pot instead of 300 on the flop.

I agree with that play. I normally bet the pot unless it's all paint or a pair on the board. I was feeling gun shy from having Kings cracked earlier. Need to work on the short-term memory.

So I bet the pot? I may be able to take the pot down there, or possibly just get Flutie to call. If they both call themselves all-in, the hand plays to a showdown.

Isn't the pot only about 100 less than all in after the flop?

[11pecans]

care to tell us what really happened? Didnt the all in result in tournament ejection?

[FSAme]

I'd go pot on the flop. But since you didn't, I'd go all in now..

How'd it turn out?

[3rookie]

Pot limit, foghorn.

I figure berco will call no matter what you do because he's getting good odds on a draw or he has a King. I would be all-in also, as you could still take the side pot w/Berco if fgirl wins.

I see Bama's point about betting the pot after the flop -- I assume it's to keep people from having good odds on a draw.

[vegas]

The fact that flutiegirl is all-in does not affect my decision in this case. The problem is berco24. Since berco called preflop, and did not make a strong raise on the flop, I am thinking that he has a draw (Straight or Flush) or he has a pair of Tens. Either way, I am going all in at this point and hoping that he folds before he catches something on the turn or river.

Now, since you posted this question I assume that you lost the hand. Perhaps you lost to two pair (K's and T's) but my guess is that berco caught a flush.

[Bama Gambler]

Given that you bet 300 instead of the pot and he raised to 600 you have to call. He might make that raise with KQ. Also, flutiegirl is low and may make that call with any pair.

[Hummer]

...and here's the rest of the story.

Hummer21 raises (600) to 900
Brillo1: go fg
berco24 raises (515) to 1115
berco24 calls all-In.
Hummer21: I hate Aces
Hummer21 calls (10)
Hummer21 calls all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5c ]
flutiegirl: lol i dont know
** Dealing River ** : [ Jh ]
Creating Main Pot with $2235 with flutiegirl
Creating Side Pot 1 with $930 with Hummer21
Creating Side Pot 2 with $205 with berco24
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2235 | Side Pot 1: 930 | Side Pot 2: 205
Board: [ Tc Kh 8c 5c Jh ]
jdhaccount balance 1910, didn't bet (folded)
svarta balance 2040, didn't bet (folded)
Hummer21 balance 0, lost 1210 [ Ad Ac ] [ a pair of aces -- Ad,Ac,Kh,Jh,Tc ]
berco24 balance 3370, bet 1415, collected 3370, net +1955 [ Js Kd ] [ two pairs, kings and jacks -- Kd,Kh,Js,Jh,Tc ]
Brillo1 balance 680, didn't bet (folded)
flutiegirl balance 0, lost 745 [ As 8s ] [ a pair of eights -- As,Kh,Jh,8s,8c ]

PL bet on the flop would have been the best move. It probably would not have driven Berco out, but would have created the possibility before he was pot committed. Bama wins the quiz, and get's knocked out just like me. Decided to play a $50 PL on tilt next... fortunately I won it.

[11pecans]

you are against some of this: could be club draw, hi pair, trips or two pair

depends how you feel, call, fold or reraise

you are probably 2nd best.... fold

especially since you posted here for validation...lol

After the river you were 2nd which is all that matters.
I was right on, folding was the correct play. :D

[FSAme]

you are against some of this: could be club draw, hi pair, trips or two pair

depends how you feel, call, fold or reraise

you are probably 2nd best.... fold

especially since you posted here for validation...lol

After the river you were 2nd which is all that matters.
I was right on, folding was the correct play. :D

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=196469
pokenum -h ad ac - as 8s - js kd -- tc kh 8c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Tc 8c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ad 628 69.55 264 29.24 11 1.22 0.702
As 8s 77 8.53 815 90.25 11 1.22 0.091
Js Kd 187 20.71 716 79.29 0 0.00 0.207
In hindsight, folding turned out the be the correct play, but after the flop, all in is the statistical best play....

[Bama Gambler]

12pack, if you always fear the nuts when you don't have them, you aren't going to win too many tournaments. Playing ultra-conservative might get you to the money often, but it won't make you any big scores.

[Bama Gambler]

You just won't see me folding an overpair that often. Especially when the pot is already large and doing so will leave me short stacked.

[Hummer]

After the river you were 2nd which is all that matters.
I was right on, folding was the correct play. :D

I would disagree. I think the best (notice I didn't say correct) play would be a PL bet after the flop. Make Berco really think about playing one pair with a marginal kicker. Ignoring runners, Berco had 5 outs. Not the kind of odds a good player would take. Especially given he would be cripled if he lost to me.

Now, he could have been a good player, and my $300 bet UTG showed weakness against a King on board. He could have put me on queens or jacks. PL bet would have left no doubt about where is Kings stood.

[foghorn]

After the river you were 2nd which is all that matters.
I was right on, folding was the correct play. :D

I would disagree. I think the best (notice I didn't say correct) play would be a PL bet after the flop. Make Berco really think about playing one pair with a marginal kicker. Ignoring runners, Berco had 5 outs. Not the kind of odds a good player would take. Especially given he would be cripled if he lost to me.

Now, he could have been a good player, and my $300 bet UTG showed weakness against a King on board. He could have put me on queens or jacks. PL bet would have left no doubt about where is Kings stood.

You've got the best hand after the flop, don't you want him to call? Or better yet don't you want him to raise all-in?

[Hummer]

[quote=12pack]
After the river you were 2nd which is all that matters.
I was right on, folding was the correct play. :D

I would disagree. I think the best (notice I didn't say correct) play would be a PL bet after the flop. Make Berco really think about playing one pair with a marginal kicker. Ignoring runners, Berco had 5 outs. Not the kind of odds a good player would take. Especially given he would be cripled if he lost to me.

Now, he could have been a good player, and my $300 bet UTG showed weakness against a King on board. He could have put me on queens or jacks. PL bet would have left no doubt about where is Kings stood.

Not necessarily. In a tournament, I want Flutie to call since she is short stacked and desperate. Even if she catches, I am still alive. Berco started the hand with more chips than me. A call by him could end my hopes (which it did). I prefer to take down the pot right there instead of doubling up if it means risking being bounced.
You've got the best hand after the flop, don't you want him to call? Or better yet don't you want him to raise all-in?

[11pecans]

12pack, if you always fear the nuts when you don't have them, you aren't going to win too many tournaments. Playing ultra-conservative might get you to the money often, but it won't make you any big scores.

I never said I always play ultra conservative, I just figured that no one would start a thread about "I played aces and they stood up" when 7 out of 10 times its gonna be "I played aces and they beat me on the river."

[foghorn]

Ribeye, I guess you are right. It's hard for me to see past the 7 out of 10 times you've more than doubled your chips and virtually eliminated two people.

[Hummer]

12pack, if you always fear the nuts when you don't have them, you aren't going to win too many tournaments. Playing ultra-conservative might get you to the money often, but it won't make you any big scores.

I never said I always play ultra conservative, I just figured that no one would start a thread about "I played aces and they stood up" when 7 out of 10 times its gonna be "I played aces and they beat me on the river."

I have virtually an identical hand I could post where Aces held up versus top pair from the flop. I didn't post that b/c I made a PL raise from late position after a minimum bet. Surprisingly, the opener called with a horrible draw. I chose this hand due to the position, chip stack size etc. I wanted advice about SB/BB playing. It has nothing to do with the outcome. It's much easier to play any high pocket pair when you are in late position.

[Happy Extinction]

Fluitie girl could have this since she sort of limped in, but i am guessing she floppped middle pair or is on a draw and is going all in becuase she doesn't have enough chips left. Berco24 is a little strange, but I am guessing he has KQo.

That's just me.

Hey,

I was pretty close!

[Bama Gambler]

Ribeye, I guess you are right. It's hard for me to see past the 7 out of 10 times you've more than doubled your chips and virtually eliminated two people.Yes that's an ideal situation, but he couldn't know that when he bet the 300. A more likely outcome would be he is called by a draw and someone with a pair. In that case as many as 13 cards could hurt him. Therefore it's better to bet the pot and force one or two of the draws out.

[Jack & Whack 'til Bla]

I agree with Bama

[MNBridge]

12pack, if you always fear the nuts when you don't have them, you aren't going to win too many tournaments. Playing ultra-conservative might get you to the money often, but it won't make you any big scores.

I never said I always play ultra conservative, I just figured that no one would start a thread about "I played aces and they stood up" when 7 out of 10 times its gonna be "I played aces and they beat me on the river."

:D I give 12 Pack the award for most deductive answer.

[Sotally Tober]

Since this thread came back up and I had AA, I've got a hand that I think I played wrong for the intention I had.

Tourney, final three players. I took a huge hit several hands earlier. Chip leader in very strong position.

>*********** # 148 **************
>PokerStars Game #275264421: Tournament #942461, Hold'em No Limit - Level XI
>(600/1200) - 2004/02/06 - 00:08:43 (ET)
>Table '942461 2' Seat #8 is the button
>Seat 6: douglan (2080 in chips)
>Seat 7: brak (20295 in chips)
>Seat 8: rdavey (4625 in chips)
>douglan: posts the ante 75
>brak: posts the ante 75
>rdavey: posts the ante 75
>douglan: posts small blind 600
>brak: posts big blind 1200
>*** HOLE CARDS ***
>Dealt to rdavey [Ad Ac]
>rdavey: calls 1200
>douglan: folds
>brak: checks

OK, I've got the person I want in the hand in the pot with me. At this point I want to double up, on him, right now. I'm in a pretty desperate position and will be blinded off in no time. douglan will too, and I could hold out and see if douglan goes out before me and I'll take 2nd, but I'm dealt Aces with no guarantee that I'll take second. Gotta take every chip from brak I can.

>*** FLOP *** [8c 7s 4h]
>brak: checks
>rdavey: bets 1200

Wrong play. Right? I saw all under cards and instinctively I thought just don't go all-in. I saw past the potential straight (i.e. didn't take enough time to think about it) and bet the minimum.

>brak: folds
>rdavey collected 3225 from pot
>rdavey: doesn't show hand

Of course. He thinks that I could have a straight or at least a straight draw.

So I wonder how should I have played this to maximize my payout? Not just win the hand.

Option 1:
All-in. They fold. Hand over. Not what I want.

Option 2:
Raise a small amount pre-flop. I think this most likely pushes both players out. If brak calls me, he may put me on higher cards (QTo, for example) but perhaps not Aces. When the flop comes, maybe he doesn't think I have a piece of it and so now my 1200 bet doesn't look so much like I'm drawing to a straight.

Option 3:
Check the flop and risk a free card that makes him a straight. He's the BB, I've limped in, he simply checked it. He could have anything. But I guess at this point in the game, it's a risk I have to take IF I want this hand to be the one where I double up at brak's expense.

Option 3, right? If I lose, I lose. Winning the hand was not enough. Maybe it should have been.

FYI, I'm out the very next hand going over the top of brak for all my chips with Ah Th. Of course, brak had AA. Two hearts hit the board on the flop, but no love for me after that. Dumb move. I know. douglan had 1405, I had 6575, brak at 19020. I should wait and see if douglan goes out before I do at this point and just fold this hand and let the blinds have a shot at knocking douglan out. I guess I was just upset about not getting the result I wanted the previous hand, thought this one was pretty good too and got beat. Truthfully, second or third made no difference to me.

[Bama Gambler]

I'd either raise to 2400 or all-in preflop. Just calling 3 handed from the button actually screams trap to me. When I'm the BB three handed and some just calls from the button I slow down. If someone raise 2x or 3x from the button then I'm usually very aggressive. If I was brak I would call your all-in pre-flop with a lot of hands, but if you just called I would check pre-flop and the fold any flop that didn't hit me.

[Sotally Tober]

I'd either raise to 2400 or all-in preflop. Just calling 3 handed from the button actually screams trap to me. When I'm the BB three handed and some just calls from the button I slow down. If someone raise 2x or 3x from the button then I'm usually very aggressive. If I was brak I would call your all-in pre-flop with a lot of hands, but if you just called I would check pre-flop and the fold any flop that didn't hit me.

Interesting. I wouldn't necessarily see a pre-flop limp as a trap. Maybe I should. I am just a beginner.

This hand was about 6-8 hands after losing my straight to the FH on the river, so perhaps a raise here or an all-in might seem like I'm on tilt and he'd call it. I'd love to have known what he had to know if he folded b/c his hand was crap (in which case, he folds to my all-in) or if he thought I was trapping after the flop (in which case, he might have called a pre-flop all-in not thinking I was trapping). The world may never know.

[vegas]

This hand was about 6-8 hands after losing my straight to the FH on the river, so perhaps a raise here or an all-in might seem like I'm on tilt and he'd call it.

As with all these scenarios we post, there is always more than meets the eye.

I think a pre-flop raise is in order here. Unless brak has a terrible hand, he will probably call. If he has a terrible hand and you allow him to limp in, one of four things will happen. First, he does not catch on the draw and so folds after your next bet bet. This would result in less money than if he called a pre-flop raise and then folded on the flop. Seconds, he catches a nice potential draw (like the scenario above). In this case, you go all in and he probably folds. Again, your pre-flop bet got you some more money. (I guess he could call your all-in, and you would be happy with this). Thirds, he catches a pair. Again a strong bet will probably result in a fold, and if not, your happy to have him call. Fourth, he catches a good hand (2 pair, a set, etc). Now he is probably going to call your bets and you will need some help to stay alive. This fourth scenario would be the same with or w/o a pre-flop raise, so again the pre-flop raise does not hurt you.

My 2 cents.............

[Bama Gambler]

vegas makes a great point. In summary, you risk so much (your whole stack) to gain so little (1200).

[Sotally Tober]

vegas makes a great point. In summary, you risk so much (your whole stack) to gain so little (1200).

Yup, I'm convinced that a pre-flop raise was the right play. But given that I let him limp in, a mistake, granted, I think I'm now at the point where I have to risk checking the flop and hope he makes something but that won't beat my aces.

As for risking my stack, at this point in the tournament I'm nearly done, the blinds are about to kill me, and I don't care about whether I finish in 2nd or 3rd. I'm looking to give myself a chance at getting my chip stack back to where I can apply legitimate pressure to him should I win this hand and maybe still win this thing.

[Bama Gambler]

I agree, given they way you played pre-flop you have to check the flop. He might try to steal on the turn since you checked the flop too.

[Sotally Tober]

He might try to steal on the turn since you checked the flop too.

Impatience on my part. And I didn't honestly think a bet of 1200 would scare him off.

[Bama Gambler]

He might try to steal on the turn since you checked the flop too.

Impatience on my part. And I didn't honestly think a bet of 1200 would scare him off.If he had any piece of the flop he would call, but if he didn't then he would fold. But by checking the flop you might induce him to bluff the turn.

[USCanuck]

You gotta love this....

PokerStars Game #508346943: Tournament #1923817, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2004/06/26 - 02:15:49 (ET)
Table '1923817 1' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 4: *TR20* (4970 in chips)
Seat 7: RSDallas (2545 in chips)
Seat 9: mikemillions (5985 in chips)
*TR20*: posts the ante 25
RSDallas: posts the ante 25
mikemillions: posts the ante 25
*TR20*: posts small blind 100
RSDallas: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RSDallas [Ah Ac]
mikemillions: raises 200 to 400
*TR20*: folds
RSDallas: raises 200 to 600
mikemillions: raises 5360 to 5960 and is all-in
RSDallas: calls 1920 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [6h As Ad]
*** TURN *** [6h As Ad] [Kh]
RSDallas said, "I think I win that one"
*** RIVER *** [6h As Ad Kh] [3c]
*TR20* said, "wwwwwwwwwoooooooowwwwww"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RSDallas: shows [Ah Ac] (four of a kind, Aces)
mikemillions: shows [9h 8d] (a pair of Aces)
RSDallas collected 5215 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5215 | Rake 0
Board [6h As Ad Kh 3c]
Seat 4: *TR20* (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: RSDallas (big blind) showed [Ah Ac] and won (5215) with four of a kind, Aces
Seat 9: mikemillions (button) showed [9h 8d] and lost with a pair of Aces

mikemillions went on tilt and lost his stack shortly thereafter.

[DblDownTrent]

nice one RS, last night must have been the night for quad AAAA, I got the same hand in my multi on party last night, but don't have the hand history to show for it.

Anyone know if there's a good way to get hand history for Party multis without requesting every hour?

[Expunge]

Get the reputation as a theif and theres no need to slowplay.

POKERSTARS GAME #508104402: TOURNAMENT #1922097, HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VIII (200/400) - 2004/06/26 - 00:02:06 (ET)
Table '1922097 2' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: DawsonS64 (2930 in chips)
Seat 3: Cohete009 (1770 in chips)
Seat 5: rod255 (13295 in chips)
Seat 6: SP0NGE (4313 in chips)
Seat 9: RSDallas (4692 in chips)
DawsonS64: posts the ante 25
Cohete009: posts the ante 25
rod255: posts the ante 25
SP0NGE: posts the ante 25
RSDallas: posts the ante 25
DawsonS64: posts small blind 200
Cohete009: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SP0NGE [Ad Ah]
rod255: folds
SP0NGE: raises 800 to 1200
RSDallas: folds
DawsonS64: folds
Cohete009: raises 545 to 1745 and is all-in
SP0NGE: calls 545
Cohete009 said, "nh"
*** FLOP *** [Qs 2h 3c]
RSDallas said, "oops"
Cohete009 said, "gl guys"
*** TURN *** [Qs 2h 3c] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [Qs 2h 3c Ks] [Qd]
RSDallas said, "gg cohete"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Cohete009: shows [Jh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
SP0NGE: shows [Ad Ah] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
SP0NGE said, "gg cohete"
SP0NGE collected 3815 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3815 | Rake 0
Board [Qs 2h 3c Ks Qd]
Seat 1: DawsonS64 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Cohete009 (big blind) showed [Jh Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 5: rod255 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: SP0NGE showed [Ad Ah] and won (3815) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 9: RSDallas (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[fallout]

This is why I never play pocket aces. Too many tough decisions.