SOA Education redesign & CAS

[Oblomov retired (student)]

The SOA has been busy redesigning their education system. Currently, exams 1, 2 and 4 are shared between CAS and SOA. On the SOA side, these exams will no longer exist starting spring next year.

Does the CAS have an “official” (instead of rumours on this board) statement about how these changes will affect the CAS education system? Specifically what the transition rules will be and how the CAS views the new SOA requirements for subjects that will be “Validated by Educational Experience”, i.e. mandatory college credits instead of parts of exams 2 and 4?

Edit: Fixed title, thank you Slim Shady

[spotted cow]

I have the same question. There is nothing on the CAS website at all that talks about the redesign approval or VEE.

Either:

1) They (CAS) are slow to put it on their website, or
2) They are thinking about not going along with it

Hopefully it's #2.

I guess we will see.

[Howard Mahler]

I believe that the CAS is "going along" with the SOA.
I believe the CAS will continue to have its own Part 3 Exam.

The CAS will continue to do its own thing beyond Part 4, but some of this will probably change somewhat at some point (2005 or 2006). I do not know any details.

Howard Mahler

[Bored]

I believe that the CAS is "going along" with the SOA.

Am I the only one disturbed by this? If the CAS is indeed going along with the SOA, don't they have a responsibility to tell students this? I, along with many people I know, are considering switching to the CAS in a large part because it will enable us to take Course 4 beyond just this November. Shouldn't the CAS let people know that the last time they are offering certain exams is this year (if they are indeed going along with the SOA exactly, down to the timeline)? What if a student had just passed Course 1? They will have to pass 2 and 4 this year or have to take a few college classes. It would probably help them to know as soon as possible that they're under this pressure.

Up until now, I was angered by the SOA's complete disregard for students (waiting until February to finalize changes when they were supposed to be done in December); now it seems as though the CAS has stepped it up a notch to be just as bad.

[Wigmeister General]

Don't you know that when the SOA sneezes the CAS catches a cold? Do you really think the SOA, CAS and AAA are three distinct organizations? Have you ever called them both up to see if the phone numbers really are distinct?

[Maine-iac]

Believe me. They are two separate organizations. This fact is the curse of my life. :(

[Bored]

Does anybody have any information on who to contact at the CAS to find out what's going on?

[Wigmeister General]

Does anybody have any information on who to contact at the CAS to find out what's going on?

Phone: (703) 276-3100.
Fax: (703) 276-3108.

[Wigmeister General]

Believe me. They are two separate organizations. This fact is the curse of my life. :(

The SOA has you boonswoggled. It's only one organization.

[Pack Fan]

http://www.casact.org/admissions/reports/FETFRept.htm

After discussing the FETF recommendations, the Board and Executive Council authorized the following activities:


Creation of a Joint CAS/SOA Task Force on Preliminary Education to discuss the differences between the CAS and SOA proposals for the material currently covered on Exams 1-4 and develop final recommendations for joint vs. non-joint educational activity. This includes exploration of options for allowing candidates to demonstrate mastery of certain topics through means other than CAS or SOA administered exams. This task force expects to complete its work by year-end 2003, given the SOA Board's directive to implement new SOA preliminary exams by spring 2005.
Creation of a Computer-Based Testing Task Force to develop a proposal for implementing computer-based testing for at least one exam by spring 2005.
Creation of a Task Force on Study Materials charged initially to evaluate commercially-available study materials to see how those materials compare to the current syllabus material in terms of quality and efficiency and develop a proposal for future action regarding options for developing better study materials.
Creation of a Task Force on Modeling Workshop to develop and pilot a workshop along the lines proposed by the FETF to see whether this is a workable idea for future basic and/or continuing education.
The Admissions Committees need to determine how best to ensure that the CAS education process supports the CAS Centennial Goal and to review international developments in actuarial education, including the Actuarial Control Cycle. This may require establishment of additional task forces.


[/list]

[Bored]

Yes, I'd read that report. Actually, based on that I had been assumming that if they converted their system as well, they would either have let the students know by now, or they would offer the exams past just this November. Now I'm realizing that may not be true, particularly since neither organization finalized their plan by December as they said they would.

I know a few CAS students who knew nothing of any impending conversion until I mentioned it to them recently. One person in particular is taking Course 3 now and if she doesn't pass in May, will take it in November again and not have credit for 4. If the CAS is actually going to convert as fast as the SOA, shouldn't they let their students know?

[Brad Gile]

Believe me. They are two separate organizations. This fact is the curse of my life. :(

They are, indeed, separate. If they were one organization, the road to double fellowship would be far more efficient. NOTE that I did NOT say "easier".

Having said that, I must also say that I think the SOA has a very poor history of reconstructing its educational system every 5 years or so.

I went through my first transition from 1974-78, when we went from a 10 exam system to a 9 exam one. Then in 1979, we had yet another transition. Fortunately, I finished FSA in 1986-just before ANOTHER transition to FES, which was a remarkably long lived boondoggle. Then they went to the year 2000 system, changed ASA gears in 03 and NOW plan a MAJOR rehaul in '05 that is supposed to fix all ills. Unfortunately, every SOA fix has promised to do that. Equally unfortunately, I have no alternative to offer.

Brad<---thankful he no longer writes anybody's exams

[Wigmeister General]

LVB <---- More thankful than Brad that LVB doesn't write anymore exams.

I thumb my nose at thee, O Evil Empire.

[DW Simpson]

This is what someone at the CAS just told me:

From what I understand, the changes in the exam structure were prepared/recommended by a joint CAS/SOA task force. Having already been approved by the SOA Board, the proposal will be presented to the CAS Board during its March 8-9, 2004 meeting.

[DW Simpson]

http://www.soa.org/library/futactuary/1992-09/fut_winter03/fut_winter03.htm

Coordination with the CAS

Currently, exams 1, 2 and 4 are administered jointly with the CAS. A joint CAS/SOA task force is currently at work refining the learning objectives for the four new exams and the subjects to be validated by educational experience. There are a few items on which the two societies do not currently agree. They include:

Use of validation by educational experience. If the CAS does not accept this for economics and corporate finance, they will continue to offer an exam much like the current Course 2, rather than an exam concentrating on the mathematics of finance.

Direct testing of mathematical statistics. Prior to 2000, mathematical statistics was directly tested on the second exam. Currently, it is indirectly tested on the fourth exam. The SOA is recommending that this approach continue, while the CAS prefers more explicit testing.

The exam on using actuarial models (similar to the current third exam) may continue to be offered separately, although the possibility of a joint exam has not been ruled out. If separate exams are given, the CAS is likely to include mathematical statistics on this exam.

[jets fan]

http://www.soa.org/library/futactuary/1992-09/fut_winter03/fut_winter03.htm

Coordination with the CAS

Currently, exams 1, 2 and 4 are administered jointly with the CAS. A joint CAS/SOA task force is currently at work refining the learning objectives for the four new exams and the subjects to be validated by educational experience. There are a few items on which the two societies do not currently agree. They include:

Use of validation by educational experience. If the CAS does not accept this for economics and corporate finance, they will continue to offer an exam much like the current Course 2, rather than an exam concentrating on the mathematics of finance.

Direct testing of mathematical statistics. Prior to 2000, mathematical statistics was directly tested on the second exam. Currently, it is indirectly tested on the fourth exam. The SOA is recommending that this approach continue, while the CAS prefers more explicit testing.

The exam on using actuarial models (similar to the current third exam) may continue to be offered separately, although the possibility of a joint exam has not been ruled out. If separate exams are given, the CAS is likely to include mathematical statistics on this exam.

The only thing that is clear from reading this is that nothing is clear at all. Bored, just proceed with business as usual until you are told otherwise. There will be a very clear link on the CAS website (and info will probably be mailed to you) if/when there's any concrete change. And if there is any change, I would think they'd have to give you a reasonable time frame to prepare for it.

[Shrek]

They are, indeed, separate. If they were one organization, the road to double fellowship would be far more efficient. NOTE that I did NOT say "easier".

Brad<---thankful he no longer writes anybody's exams

No it wouldn't. They're happy to get every last dime out of you (or your company) along the way. Otherwise there would be some "education" in the E&noE process.

Tim <--- don't call me about serving on yer exam committee until there's education involved.

[Shrek]

The only thing that is clear from reading this is that nothing is clear at all. Bored, just proceed with business as usual until you are told otherwise. There will be a very clear link on the CAS website (and info will probably be mailed to you) if/when there's any concrete change. And if there is any change, I would think they'd have to give you a reasonable time frame to prepare for it.
You'd think that, wouldn't you? I mean, after all, it is a professional organization.

Personally, I'd be shopping for socks with handles at the ankles.

[DW Simpson]

The CAS also directed me to these pages:

http://www.casact.org/admissions/futfell/dec03/

http://www.casact.org/admissions/reports/FETFRept.htm

[DW Simpson]

http://www.casact.org/admissions/futfell/dec03/jtforce.htm is the best source that I've found for the likely CAS changes.

[GuyInWestGrove]

http://www.casact.org/admissions/futfell/dec03/jtforce.htm is the best source that I've found for the likely CAS changes.

From my perspective, there is a beautiful sentence in that doc:

"One of the minimum requirements to move forward with this idea is that candidates would need alternatives that did not require them to go back to school if they did not take these courses while they were in college. "

p.s. Where can I can I get some of those socks with handles? Considering how easy they would be to put on, you'd think they'd have to make them. :)

[jets fan]

From my perspective, there is a beautiful sentence in that doc:

Another beautiful sentence said:

The proposal to validate certain subjects by educational experience had less than majority support within the FETF.

[Howard Mahler]

The CAS is extremely likely to adopt "validation by educational experience" for the same topics as the SOA. (Not as certain as the rising of the sun in the east.)

For those who have taken courses for which they would be granted credit,
this may effect which exams to take this year. For example, someone who would get credit for economics and finance in 2005, probably should take something other than Course 2 in 2004. Therefore, the sooner candidates are informed the better.

Howard Mahler

P.S. I was a member of the CAS future education taskforce and did not favor "validation by educational experience", particularly for Regression and Time Series. A large minority of the FTEF (perhaps 45%), the Vice President of Admissions, the President (I think), the President-Elect, and most or all of the Board did favor it. This was known almost a year ago.

[jets fan]

The CAS is extremely likely to adopt "validation by educational experience" for the same topics as the SOA. (Not as certain as the rising of the sun in the east.)

Howard Mahler

P.S. I was a member of the CAS future education taskforce and did not favor "validation by educational experience", particularly for Regression and Time Series. A large minority of the FTEF (perhaps 45%), the Vice President of Admissions, the President (I think), the President-Elect, and most or all of the Board did favor it. This was known almost a year ago.

Howard, given that the minority (large or not) of the FTEF support VBEE, how can it be "extremely likely" to be adopted? Is it a case of not all votes being equal?

[J.T.]

The CAS is extremely likely to adopt "validation by educational experience" for the same topics as the SOA. (Not as certain as the rising of the sun in the east.)

Howard Mahler

P.S. I was a member of the CAS future education taskforce and did not favor "validation by educational experience", particularly for Regression and Time Series. A large minority of the FTEF (perhaps 45%), the Vice President of Admissions, the President (I think), the President-Elect, and most or all of the Board did favor it. This was known almost a year ago.

Howard, given that the minority (large or not) of the FTEF support VBEE, how can it be "extremely likely" to be adopted? Is it a case of not all votes being equal?

I would think it is the Board's decision, not the committee's.

I agree that is a bad choice, since as a math major, I didn't take Economics or Finance in college, but since I have exams 1-4, I'm not as concerned. Just curious how many transitions I will have to sit through until I finish.

Howard, thanks a lot for posting this. It is nice to know what the CAS is up to, and although not a detailed listing of what they will decide, it is at least nice to know that they are planning on making changes also.

[snarf]

The CAS is extremely likely to adopt "validation by educational experience" for the same topics as the SOA. (Not as certain as the rising of the sun in the east.)

Howard Mahler

P.S. I was a member of the CAS future education taskforce and did not favor "validation by educational experience", particularly for Regression and Time Series. A large minority of the FTEF (perhaps 45%), the Vice President of Admissions, the President (I think), the President-Elect, and most or all of the Board did favor it. This was known almost a year ago.

Howard, given that the minority (large or not) of the FTEF support VBEE, how can it be "extremely likely" to be adopted? Is it a case of not all votes being equal?

I would think it is the Board's decision, not the committee's.


yet another good reason to volunteer presented by cas leadership. "participate. we value your input almost as much as a stick in the eye." yeah, sign me up for as many committees as you want. i've got nothing better to do with my time. :roll:

[Loner]

Question - what if you failed an exam that you have "validated by educational experience"? e.g., somebody fails Part 2 in November 2004, but took econ and finance in college? Does he then get credit for it or do they make him take the college classes again?

[Sunny]

Question, is the misspelling in the title intentional? ;)

[Gandalf]

Question - what if you failed an exam that you have "validated by educational experience"? e.g., somebody fails Part 2 in November 2004, but took econ and finance in college? Does he then get credit for it or do they make him take the college classes again?
The entire Part 2 is not associated with "validated by educational experience". In the situation you describe, an SOA candidate would still have to take new exam MF, which is a requirement regardless of college background. He would need to validate econ, but the courses he already took would count (subject to course content, minimum grade, etc). Corporate finance is only a pre-requisite: the SOA recommends that everyone learn it, but will not require any verification of any sort.

[bbqcarrot]

I'm still confused (hope I'm not the only one here)....

My biggest concern/question is, if I'd managed to pass exam 1 thru 4 before the official redesign date (tentatively 2005), does is mean that I don't have to go back to school to make up for all the credits they are asking for? Or are exams passed and courses taken 2 separate requirements that need to be fulfilled in order to get my ASA (ACAS) designation? And how does SOA fair from CAS on this right now?

[Oblomov retired (student)]

if I'd managed to pass exam 1 thru 4 before the official redesign date (tentatively 2005), does is mean that I don't have to go back to school to make up for all the credits they are asking for?Correct.

http://www.casact.org/admissions/reports/FETFRpt.pdf

From the link provided by Pack Fan:

In the proposed new system there are 3 separate topics subject to Validation by Educational Experience (VEE)

Economics
Corporate Finance
Applied statistical models

The transition rules state that

The current exam 2 will give credit for the new Exam 2 and for VEE Economics and VEE Corporate Finance
The current exam 4 will give credit for the new exam 4 and for VEE Applied Statistical Methods