BlackJack

[Prawnz Perdinand]

No, I'm not talking about Jables - or BlaJes. Do you play blackjack online?

[Jables]

:wave:
Now here's a topic I can enjoy!

I don't play online, but I'd meet up with fellow posters at Foxwoods any time! ;)

http://gregdooley.com/images/bj.gif

[Pseudolus]

I actually dreamed last night that I was playing blackjack. Badly. And losing a lot of money. I don't gamble, rarely play cards at all, and have never gambled on blackjack in my life. No idea where that came from. :-?

[I Pity the Fool]

I don't play online, but I'd meet up with fellow posters at Foxwoods any time! ;)

Hey now, I made you that offer for The Sun that one time and you declined it. I'll be heading there on Monday if you'd be interested in meetin' me and another common fellow RF poster.

[I Pity the Fool]

By the way, your card is for a table where the dealer hits on soft 17.... but I'm pretty sure Foxwoods (and I know Mohegan) hits on that. For shame!!! :x

[Jables]

I don't play online, but I'd meet up with fellow posters at Foxwoods any time! ;)

Hey now, I made you that offer for The Sun that one time and you declined it. I'll be heading there on Monday if you'd be interested in meetin' me and another common fellow RF poster.

I only declined because I highly suspected (and correctly so) that my boss would keep me late... That and I definitely know my way around Foxwoods much better than Mohegan. Who else is going? What time? Foxwoods or Mohegan?

[Jables]

By the way, your card is for a table where the dealer hits on soft 17.... but I'm pretty sure Foxwoods (and I know Mohegan) hits on that. For shame!!! :x

Oops, I just grabbed the biggest image of one I could find. Also Foxwoods definitely stands on all 17's, I checked their website to be sure (all the more reason to hit up Foxwoods over Mohegan!)

[I Pity the Fool]

Oops, I just grabbed the biggest image of one I could find. Also Foxwoods definitely stands on all 17's, I checked their website to be sure (all the more reason to hit up Foxwoods over Mohegan!)
Ohhhhhh snap!, I'm dumb. Mohegan stands on 17 too, I must've had some green crap in my brain.

Other fellow RF poster (not sure if I should "out" him.. as in, out him, in the being gay sense) said he's not sure, since he might have a date this weekend and then he'll need to catch up with stuff on Monday. But he won't have a date, I'm sure of that. Anyway, I'll let ya know what goes downnn.

[All Clear]

I probably should have reported on this in the last big BlackJack thread we had on the RF, but last time I was at AC, I suddenly saw all three casinos I played at allowed splitting to up to 3 piles (for non A's), a change from the previous time I was there. I am hoping that next time I show up, I will suddenly notice that Surrender is once more allowed. IPTF- what are the foxwood/mohegin rules, aside from standing on soft 17? resplitting? surrender? DD after split?

[I Pity the Fool]

I probably should have reported on this in the last big BlackJack thread we had on the RF, but last time I was at AC, I suddenly saw all three casinos I played at allowed splitting to up to 3 piles (for non A's), a change from the previous time I was there. I am hoping that next time I show up, I will suddenly notice that Surrender is once more allowed. IPTF- what are the foxwood/mohegin rules, aside from standing on soft 17? resplitting? surrender? DD after split?
I'm only familiar with Mohegan Sun, but I think they're the same on all blackjack rules. They are very, very generous. For the Sun at least...

* Dealer stands on soft 17
* Resplit as many times as you want (non A's only of course)
* Surrender allowed
* DD after split allowed

[Jables]

:bump:

Anybody going to Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun after work today?

[I Pity the Fool]

Anybody going to Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun after work today?
Yepppppppp, I will be at The Sun. The fellow RF poster I've talked about won't be, so it'll just be me and a greezy Italian. Let me know if you'll be there and want to meet up.

I am gonna get SO rich.

[Jables]

Sure, what time? It should take me about an hour to get there from where I am... and I've only been there twice, quite some time ago too, so I'm not too familiar with the layout. Where would we meet?

[Expunge]

don't tempt me like this, i should study this evening.

[Jables]

Dude, F studying... the more the merrier!

[I Pity the Fool]

Hells yeah! Hmm... I'll be showing up around 5:30, and we'll be playing in the older part of the casino. As for a meeting place, I usually meet people by the fountain in between the two casinos, but I don't know about that for tonight. What time would you be there?

Don't forget to bring a U-Haul so you can take away all your CASH

[Jables]

Which one is the older one? Casino of the Earth? Sky?

I can probably be there by 6:00-6:15

[I Pity the Fool]

It's the one with the lower ceiling. More smokey and old-time feel... I usually prefer the other one, but the greezy Italian thinks this one is "more lucky." Crazy greezy Italians.

I could come grab you at... how's 6:30 sound? There's the big hallway between the two casinos with all the shops. At the connection point of the hallway and the old casino is a fountain with a wolf on top that moves. How about there?

[I Pity the Fool]

Good news... we might have another RF poster there. HARRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

[Jables]

Ok, sounds good...see ya there!

Expunge, are you enticed into coming yet?

[Jables]

Good news... we might have another RF poster there. HARRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Whooo, I sure hope so! :toast:

[MountainHawk]

Ugh ... if the casinos were just a little closer, I'd be tempted too. I just won $250 at Seneca Niagara in Buffalo on Friday, so maybe it's better I don't press my luck. ;-)

[I Pity the Fool]

Yeah, everyone, come on down! My goal is to win enough to make a two-story house this weekend entirely out of black chips.

[Jables]

Hehe, we'll have to plan another night sometime in the future with more advance notice so we can get some more people to come :)

[MountainHawk]

If you have one of these on a Friday night that I'm around, I'm in. It's too far of a drive out there for me on a night where I have to worry about getting to work the next day. :-)

[All Clear]

I probably should have reported on this in the last big BlackJack thread we had on the RF, but last time I was at AC, I suddenly saw all three casinos I played at allowed splitting to up to 3 piles (for non A's), a change from the previous time I was there. I am hoping that next time I show up, I will suddenly notice that Surrender is once more allowed. IPTF- what are the foxwood/mohegin rules, aside from standing on soft 17? resplitting? surrender? DD after split?
I'm only familiar with Mohegan Sun, but I think they're the same on all blackjack rules. They are very, very generous. For the Sun at least...

* Dealer stands on soft 17
* Resplit as many times as you want (non A's only of course)
* Surrender allowed
* DD after split allowed

I like. I really like. Even if I get lazy and decide not to count cards, I only have a tiny disadvantage.... Ok, youve convinced me. I'll go in a week or so after work- just have to put in to leave work slightly early. Are you guys going next monday?

[Expunge]

I'll pass for tonight. I'm prolly heading to see the rent's this weekend since it's an extended weekend. But give me a touch more notice and i'm in sometime next week. Besides i wouldn't be able to arrive there until 6:15 at the earliest tonight depending on traffic could be around 7:00.

BTW what table mins are you guys into playing? / What's availble on the weekdays?

[MountainHawk]

Personally, I like the $15 mins, just because I like to vary my bets based upon how the shoe is going (ie, number of face cards out), and the $15 min allows you to ride out a bad shoe without too much damage. $25 mins can get pretty ugly pretty darn fast.

[patty_griffin]

you basic strategy players are a total joke.

the good news is that players like you keep the casinos in business so players like me can make some real money.

[I Pity the Fool]

Well, the blackjack tables were not especially kind to Jables and I. I got there a bit earlier than him, played $25 hands, and managed to lose 13 of my first 15 hands (or something like that, there might've been a DD in there somewhere) to quickly whittle my $300 down to $25. Made a small comeback from there, but eventually the $300 was gone, I went and withdrew $400 more, and almost lost all that too (came down to a point where I had it all on the line). But in the end the casino let me crawl back and I walked away with a cool 40 bucks. Guess who's eatin' Taco Bell for lunch today!

But Jables... I've never seen someone get that screwed. He played all the hands correctly and started with $200, but even by playing the $15 table minimum each hand he still almost burned through the 200 in one shoe. It was sick. He eventually had to go withdraw some more too, and several times he came almost back to even on the night. Finally at the very end, he was one hand away from even, tried to get there, but it didn't work out. So he increased the bet to again try for even, got screwed (lost a 20 vs. a 21 I think?), so what do you do in that case.... try once more! Put out a $50 bet, got dealt 11 vs an 8... doubled down, 21, finally wins the $100! to be about even. Dealer reveals a 5 behind the 8, then another 8..... 21, and yet another screwjob for Jables. :( I forget what happened in the final hand, but I remember it was another screw. The Indian bank takes only deposits. :evil:

But, he kept in good spirits the whole time, which is more than I can say for myself (I pounded the table a few times :D ). Then we went to Johnny Rocket's, slammed down some burgers (paid for by the greezy Italian who won $400 in two hands), and took off. Jables may be down some money, but the memories and friendships will last a lifetime. Awwwwww!

And by the way, the Captain was there, and he managed to pick up a few doubloons.

[Jables]

Yup, some tough luck for Mr. Bojables at the end, as Mr. T wrote... Not sure how that final hand played out (I've tried to erase it from my memory), but it wasn't pretty. Spent most of the night battling back to even, only to end up down $250 on the last 3 hands. Just didn't know when to walk away, hehe.

So, who's going tonight to win it back with me?!? :D Just kidding, I need to save up some mo' money before heading back, hehe...

Anyway, I may have lost $250, but it was better than studying ;)

[patty_griffin]

your problem and most gambler problems is you have no idea when to vary your bets. you are probably throwing out big bets at the worst times and small bets when you should be betting big. that's why basic strategy players are such a joke because if you play basic strategy only you should NEVER vary your bet and they all do, throwing out 25 one hand then 50 then 15 and they are totally oblivious to the deck count. That way the house gets a huge edge and you are just pissing in the wind. if you vary your bets and don't count cards, you are NOT 50/50 against the house as your precious charts tell you that you are.

If you're capable of it, you ought to learn to count cards. then you hold a huge advantage over the house and you know how much to bet and when.

Until then you'll be like 99.9999% of gamblers. A loser. Playing for fun and not playing to win.

[I Pity the Fool]

Whoa whoa whoa, you're wrong. Varying your bets does NOT change your expected value, moron. You see (and I'll try to explain this real slow so you can understand), it would lower it if you raised your bets when the deck count was low, but here we don't know when the bets are being raised, so we should assume they are approximately random. Thus the variance of your winnings is increased, but the expected odds on your payouts remains the exact same. Idiot.

Normally I'm nice, but not to you since you're a dick. :shake:

[Gandalf]

:duh:

patty: if a basic strategy player bets 10 on 1/3 of the hands, 20 on 1/3 of the hands, and 30 on 1/3 of the hands, his expected value is the same as if he bets 20 on all hands. This is true whether he randomly bets 10, 20 or 30, or whether he always cycles 10-20-30-10-20-30,...

The only time it is not true is if he is subconsciously influenced by the count, and in practice bets more when the count is bad.

It is possible (though I doubt it) that the expected value is different if his intent is to play until he wins $y or loses $x rather than to plan n hands.

[patty_griffin]

I am sorry to say that you are wrong, because the deck becomes favorable and unfavorable at different times, hence varying your bets, even if you do it in a system, will give the house a 25% or greater edge. if you stick to your base bet you are 50/50 against the house.

plus if you start with less than 50 times your base bet (for instance $750 if you intend to play $15 per hand), then the house advantage rises as well. so if you go in with $500 and start betting $15-50 per hand, it will be just a short time before you are broke.

the only way to win consistently is to count cards, vary your bet with the count and have at least a 50X unit bet bankroll and to never waver from the strategy.

then you will be playing to win not for fun.

[3rookie]

I am sorry to say that you are wrong, because the deck becomes favorable and unfavorable at different times, hence varying your bets, even if you do it in a system, will give the house a 25% or greater edge. if you stick to your base bet you are 50/50 against the house.
Random variations of bets do not change the Expected Value or change the house edge.

plus if you start with less than 50 times your base bet (for instance $750 if you intend to play $15 per hand), then the house advantage rises as well. so if you go in with $500 and start betting $15-50 per hand, it will be just a short time before you are broke.
Again, this has nothing to do with Expected Value, but instead Risk of Ruin would be much greater.

the only way to win consistently is to count cards, vary your bet with the count and have at least a 50X unit bet bankroll and to never waver from the strategy.
Correct.

[Expunge]

agreed that until you count cards your not playing to win, but the notion that you increase the house edge (the % not $) by varing your bets randomly is idiotic.

[Gandalf]

Hey, I just found a great way to get a big edge over the house just playing Basic Strategy.

I show up the same night that I Pity the Fool and Jables do, and sit at the table, so I go into each deal with the same count they do. I sit where they place their bets before I have to commit. We agree we're each going to play for an hour (and have sufficient bankroll to do so), then go elsewhere for some beers.

I enjoy the conversation with Jables, but his boring 15 per hand bets. Instead, I watch IPTF like a hawk. For some reason, even though he's playing Basic Strategy as are Jables and I, he's betting 10 some hands, 20 others, and 30 on others, like, totally random. :crazy:

So I carefully bet 40 - IPTF's bet on each hand.

According to some self-proclaimed blackjack guru, IPTF's going to lose an average of 5 per hand, and Jables will pretty much break even. Since my bets plus IPTF's will also on average break even, I'll win 5 per hand on average.

Can't get odds that good even counting cards.

[patty_griffin]

I can see how you guys are bitter given how you bleed money every time you go to Foxwoods.

I'd be happy to meet you there next time I am in the NE and show you how to win money.

varying bets with basic strategy = big losses. period.

I guarantee if you follow basic strategy and have the will power to not vary your bet, you will do ok. else you are pissing in the wind because you have no idea what the deck is like when you push the bigger bets out there.

I realize not everyone has the cognitive ability to count cards, so then play your basic strategy, but don't vary the bets. stick with the same bet and have at least 50X your bet to start with and you will have MUCH more fun at the casino.

[Gandalf]

You are fortunate to be able to count cards.

I realize not everyone has the cognitive ability to understand basic probability.

[patty_griffin]

I couldn't agree more.

[Jables]

Geez, I step out to do work for a few hours and look what erupts in here... First of all, I only posted the basic strategy picture because it was the first thing that popped into my head ;) I don't follow it religiously either, sometimes you just have to go with a hunch as well as what other players around you have for cards.

Secondly, I did bet mostly $15/hand, but I do vary my bets every so often... Not a lot, but I went up to $20-$25 now and then. I didn't have a huge bankroll to start with, so no dramatic leaps. Also, the guy to my left kept shoving hundred of dollars in chips under mine around the middle of my stay at the table, so during that time, I almost always bet $15, only because it made it easier to remember whose winnings were whose (yes, I did manage to win some hands, hehe).

I should have walked away down $50, but I lost or pushed my last 3 hands that really should have been winners. Being down $50 for the night would have been fine for a night of fun with Pity and the Cap, I just got burned at the end. And yes, I'm kicking myself for not leaving the table earlier, but I'm sure that even with last night's losses I'm still ahead of the game in the long run :D

[patty_griffin]

playing on hunch will give you plenty of opportunity to hit the ATM.

[Jables]

I'm not saying my decisions are based mostly on hunches... I usually follow the basic strategy guides to a T, but every now and then I'll go with an educated hunch on a close call... seems to have worked out pretty well over time for me.

[cubedbee]

Patty, you're an abrasive moron. Shut up.

[patty_griffin]

cubed, why must you be so hostile? I am only trying to be part of the discussion and I happen to be an expert on this topic. I'm being kind by sharing my vast and expert knowledge and you are being unkind.

[cubedbee]

You're being condescending and are posting things that are absolutely wrong regarding probability. Everyone else can see this but you. Nobody disagrees that counting cards is the best way to go, but your analysis of simple strategies is plain incorrect.

[CAPTAIN_MORGAN]

I can see how you guys are bitter given how you bleed money every time you go to Foxwoods.

I'd be happy to meet you there next time I am in the NE and show you how to win money.

varying bets with basic strategy = big losses. period.

I guarantee if you follow basic strategy and have the will power to not vary your bet, you will do ok. else you are pissing in the wind because you have no idea what the deck is like when you push the bigger bets out there.

I realize not everyone has the cognitive ability to count cards, so then play your basic strategy, but don't vary the bets. stick with the same bet and have at least 50X your bet to start with and you will have MUCH more fun at the casino.

HEY LOSER

I VARIED MY BETS MUCHO GRANDE WHEN I WAS PLAYING LAST NIGHT

I ONLY BET LARGE AMOUNTS WHEN I WON

AND IT WORKED OUT JUST FINE

I'VE NEVER BEEN TO FOXWOODS AND I'VE NEVER LOST

YOU BIG LOSER IT MUST SUCK TO BE YOUUUUUU
OH SNAP I DID JUST SAY THAT!

HARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

[patty_griffin]

I see everyone on here is mean natured. I would have thought different of a group of professionals.

and it is true that once in a while you'll hit when varying bets when only following basic strategy, but it's a guaranteed LOSING STRATEGY over several trips to the casino.

you guys are all just pissed because you go to the casino and lose money most of the time and don't count cards so you're mad when someone tells you how stupid of a strategy that is. Essentially you are going in knowing that you will be losing money.

and the only "basic probability" you need to know is that you guys are 100% losing blackjack players. but that's good because if everyone played like me the casinos wouldn't offer the game.

go ahead and throw away your money.

[MountainHawk]

I don't count cards per se, because that's work and I'm there to enjoy myself. I do have a general sense of where the deck is A/face card heavy or light, and may vary my bets accordingly.

If I had to estimate, I figure I'm up about $500-1K over the past few trips to the casino. Had a couple of loser trips, of course, but usually walk away in the black by a decent amount. The loser trips are usually the ones where I do what Jables did, and bet pissed.

[MountainHawk]

And the only way you are right on the house advantage increasing (as a percentage) is if people instinctively vary their bets high when the shoe has been "hot", which would generally mean that the shoe is also now face card/A depleted, making it a bad idea to increase the wager.

Finally, you aren't 50/50 even if you count cards. The house has an intrinsic advantage because if both the player and house bust, it's not a push, it's a house win.

[cubedbee]

.

the only way to win consistently is to count cards, vary your bet with the count and have at least a 50X unit bet bankroll and to never waver from the strategy.

then you will be playing to win not for fun.

Maybe most of us just want to play for fun? We all make a lot more money a lot easier than we could as professional blackjack players. For the 99.9% of normal people, blackjack is a form of entertainment that we're prepared to spend money on. Actually, every single game in the casino is the same way. Of course we want to spend as little as possible, but the added effort of card counting significantly lessens the enjoyment of playing from everyone I've talked to.

[patty_griffin]

ok, well at least you admit that you don't expect to win. you play to lose, you plan to leave with less money than you came. nothing wrong with that. The casinos love those who take the losing approach.

and you are an idiot if you think you don't have an advantage over the house when counting cards and varying bets with the count just because the house wins if you both bust.

anyhow...don't be sad because 99.999% of players are like you. I am glad for that. I prefer to walk out with my pockets full of money. I don't know what kind of entertainment you get from being guaranteed to lose money, but hey, if it works for you go for it!

how about we hold the game at my place and I'll be the house! I'd love to take some of your money.

see ya later...

Patty

[cubedbee]

Yeah, how could anyone get any entertainment when they know they will walk out with less money than they came in with. Movie theaters, amusement parks, golf courses, concerts, plays, iceskating rinks, museums...who could ever get any entertainment out of these?

[MountainHawk]

Pretty sure since the house plays from the same shoe as the player. If the player's card count is +5, so is the dealer's. Hence, the fact that the player is forced to play first is the driving factor in the odds, so the house always has an advantage.

[Gandalf]

Pretty sure since the house plays from the same shoe as the player. If the player's card count is +5, so is the dealer's. Hence, the fact that the player is forced to play first is the driving factor in the odds, so the house always has an advantage.
Not true, as the house's strategy is fixed, isn't it? (House must always stick on certain counts, and must always hit on others. This fixed strategy is optimal on some counts but not others.)

[patty_griffin]

I can see I am dealing with unknowledgeable players

well guess what, the dealer HAS to hit on 16 and below, the player can stay and let the dealer bust. who's advantage is that to when the count is +4 ??? duh. plus the player is putting much more money on the line when the odds are in their favor (with a high count). that's how the player has the odds in their favor.

why don't you morons buy a book on card counting and you'd see that the advantage is to the player.

[MountainHawk]

Yes, which is why the house advantage diminishes some by counting cards. However, the effect of busting first is greater than the 'house will bust because it doesn't change strategy based on count' effect. After all, if the count is high, the house is less likely to be in a 12-16 situation where the count matters most.

[cubedbee]

A deck rich in 10s and As has a high probability for a blackjack. The 3:2 payment is an advantage that only the player has.

[Gandalf]

MH: There are other asymmetric positions that affect the merits of counting cards. E.g., you win extra for your blackjack; you don't lose more for dealer's blackjack. Thus situations with increased probability of blackjack benefit the player.

Counting cards without varying your bet helps very little. Counting cards and varying bets is much better, as you have more wagered when the odds are in your favor.

[Bama Gambler]

Two things:

1. Counting cards can make BJ profitable for the player (provided the count swings in your favor often enough).

2. patty_griffin is a obnixious dumba$$.

[Gandalf]

why don't you morons buy a book on card counting and you'd see that the advantage is to the player.
Card counting is a non-issue to almost all of us. Everyone agrees it's better (expected financial result) than basic strategy. Almost no one disputes that its expected financial result is positive.

Why don't you buy a book on basic probability and you would see that randomly varying bets independent of the count does not change expected value compared to uniform bets? Trolls don't read?

[MountainHawk]

Maybe if I have time one of these days, I'll throw together a black jack simulation for myself and see. If the 3:2 Blackjack payout gave a card counter a winning strategy, I doubt casinos would have it out there.

[Bama Gambler]

Maybe if I have time one of these days, I'll throw together a black jack simulation for myself and see. If the 3:2 Blackjack payout gave a card counter a winning strategy, I doubt casinos would have it out there.Sorry MH don't waste your time. It's been done many times before. You can win at BJ if you count. Most shoes these days have 6-8 decks and makes counting almost worthless. You have to play high stakes to get 2 decks. Even then they like to deal the cards face down and reshuffle after ever deal.

[MountainHawk]

Maybe if I have time one of these days, I'll throw together a black jack simulation for myself and see. If the 3:2 Blackjack payout gave a card counter a winning strategy, I doubt casinos would have it out there.Sorry MH don't waste your time. It's been done many times before. You can win at BJ if you count. Most shoes these days have 6-8 decks and makes counting almost worthless. You have to play high stakes to get 2 decks. Even then they like to deal the cards face down and reshuffle after ever deal.

OK, fair enough. I'm still somewhat interested in the amount you have to vary your bets on high counts to win, and what kind of bankroll you need to ensure the P(ruin) isn't too high.

The last couple of casinos I played at had an automatic shuffler, which making counting moot.

[Bama Gambler]

I'm still somewhat interested in the amount you have to vary your bets on high counts to win, and what kind of bankroll you need to ensure the P(ruin) isn't too high.Me too. Somewhere I have a real good book on BJ (considered the bible) and it may say.

The last couple of casinos I played at had an automatic shuffler, which making counting moot.They just fed the cards back into the shuffler after each round was dealt?

[MountainHawk]

The last couple of casinos I played at had an automatic shuffler, which making counting moot.They just fed the cards back into the shuffler after each round was dealt?

Yup. They dealt almost immediately though, so I suppose there was a one hand delay in getting the cards back into the deck, but that's not going to give you much information at all.

[Bama Gambler]

Cool. I like the automatic shufflers since I don't count. That way I don't have to sit there and wait for the guy to shuffle. Of course, I only play $5 a hand and try to consume as much alcohol as possible (drinks are free in Mississippi). I bring the "cheat" sheet with and me so I don't have to remember anything.

[patty_griffin]

play where you can get single deck or double deck. and you get plenty of chances to vary the bets. You can count against 8 decks but it takes longer to gain the advantage.

bankroll should = 50X your unit bet

bets can vary as high as 10x your unit bet depending on the count.

I appreciate some of the other card counters backing me up. I didn't realize this info was so unknown.

[MountainHawk]

$5 a hand? I wish I could find those. I found a $10 table on the American side of the falls, and $15 on the Canadian side.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Anyone know what the advantage of 3-2 BJ is? I know it seems to be one of the root rules, but I was at the Palms and saw a game with all the advantages, EXCEPT paid even on BJ. This would require knowing the BS for doubling, surrendering, and counting.

3-2 BJ payoff is only part of the game. For most of the game you're battling. And if the dealer happens to be counting or watching the change in betting, she can send over the pit boss or reshuffle.
I play Hoyle Casino at home, and leave on the counter (I know I should count for myself). When the true count is up, I go from $10 to $10+$100*true_count. During these high count times, I win more than I lose. Yes, I sometimes lose a high count hand.

[3rookie]

With 6-8 decks, one would want as high bet variation as one could get away with. At extreme counts, I like to also play 2 hands when allowed.

As mentioned earlier, with a favorable count, there are more BJs (3:2 for you, even money for dealer). Also:

Insurance can become profitable
Doubling/splitting is more profitable
Playing strategy changes so one does not bust as often
If the count is very high, as a rare example, splitting 10's vs. 4, 5, 6 can become more profitable than staying with 20

P.S. STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!

[Dr T Non-Fan]

From las vegas hack attack web site:

Variations of Las Vegas Blackjack Rules in the Player's Advantage:

Being able to double any number of cards +0.2%
Bonus for 6 cards- 4 decks +0.17%
Bonus for 6 cards-1 deck +0.10%
Draw extra cards to split aces +0.14%
Double after the splitting of pairs +0.10%
Surrender-4 decks +0.06%
Surrender-1 deck +0.02%

Variations of Rules to the Player's Disadvantage:

Dealer wins all ties................. -9.00%
No double on 10 - 1 deck........ -0.56%
.................2 decks............. -0.38%
.............4 or more decks....... -0.54%
Dealer hits soft 17 .................. -0.2%
No doubling on 9 or less........... -0.14%
No soft doubling allowed .......... -0.14%

Note: This chart assumes a one deck game, double on any two cards, no surrender and no doubling after splitting.

Yes, it is a near-even game with perfect basic strategy and favorable rules. Good luck finding a game with favorable rules (and an open table).

Remember, the casino doesn't have to win everyone's money. Just to win a lot more than it loses.

[3rookie]

Anyone know what the advantage of 3-2 BJ is? I know it seems to be one of the root rules, but I was at the Palms and saw a game with all the advantages, EXCEPT paid even on BJ. This would require knowing the BS for doubling, surrendering, and counting.

BJ paying even money gives another 2.3% advantage to the house.

[Woodrow]

I prefer to walk out with my pockets full of money. I don't know what kind of entertainment you get from being guaranteed to lose money, but hey, if it works for you go for it!


That's why I like my hobby so much. I go to the local McDonalds on Saturday and just hang out, work the register, prep some food. And the best thing is I get paid for it. Yeah!

[Dr T Non-Fan]

As for how much more to bet in favorable situations, I'd say the sky's the limit. At that moment, you have a better chance of winning than losing.

In practice, three times your base bet should do. Any more, and people start watching. And if the dealer has to yell out "Black chip!" when you've been usually playing greens, the wrong people start to watch. And if you win too much, you get thrown out.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Also:
Insurance can become profitable
Doubling/splitting is more profitable
Playing strategy changes so one does not bust as often
If the count is very high, as a rare example, splitting 10's vs. 4, 5, 6 can become more profitable than staying with 20

You forgot "Surrender becomes less unprofitable."


P.S. STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!
I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe the troll will adapt to the near-civility here. I won't hold my breath.

[patty_griffin]

I agree that MH has been a bit trollish, but I'm willing to let that pass.

[All Clear]

So, the basic point of this thread appears to be that IPTF, Jables, and the Captin had a great time in the Conneticut woods yesterday. So I guess if you guys don't mind someone who counts cards and every now and then has to make up excuses for why he can't play a few hands (I have been known to "get tired" and need a break at BJ when the True Count goes under negative 1), I hope to come next time.

MountainHawk- I have heard of the automatic shuffler machines- and amazingly, according to an actuary at "www.wizardofodds.com", the machines actually decrease the house edge by a slight amount. His reasoning is hard to follow, though, and aside from screwing people like me who count cards, it doesn't make much of a difference. Your point about the True Count is incomplete, however. When there are more A's and 10's in the deck, not only are there more blackjacks (which pay you 3:2, while the dealer just takes your money if he gets one), when you double down you are more likely to get a 10 as your card. Since only the player can choose what times to double down (almost always when you want a 10, like on a hand of 11, 10, or 9), it is a big advantage when there are more 10's available.

Patty- Just thought I would tell you that although counting does increase your edge per hour, realize that it is by such a small amount- perhaps by 1.5% of your total bets. I do it more for enjoyment (yes, I actually enjoy counting cards- I like thinking while playing, more than just responding simply to cards in front of me) than to make money, and as a case in point, I am actually down money in total over the 5 times I have gone to AC (I haven't been over 21 for long). Still having fun, though.

[patty_griffin]

I'm glad we are all finally getting along.

You guys mind if a lady accompanies you to the casino next Monday? I've got lots of FF miles and am itching to hit the tables.

[Bama Gambler]

Here is a simple argument why continuous shuffling is better for the player only using basic strategy:

Basic strategy assumes a zero count.
If the deck is not re-shuffled after each deal then most likely the count is not zero, thus basic strategy will not always be optimal.

If you continuously shuffle, then basic strategy will always be optimal (not positive EV, but always optimal).

[patty_griffin]

I totally agree. if you are not counting cards a continuous shuffle is better, you are then ALWAYS facing a neutral deck. not a bad situation for a BS player.

this is cool, we're like a gambling gang!

[All Clear]

So, unless everyone is scared off due to Jables loosing his shirt on his way out of Foxwoods, is there interest in meeting up and playing at Foxwoods or AC one of these evenings?

[Jables]

First off, it was Mohegan :) Secondly it was just the last 2-3 hands that did me in... I'm ready again (financially? no but I feel the need for greed). Actually I might be down at Foxwoods Saturday night celebrating a comrade's birthday

[Jables]

:bump:

Prof. Jables took Foxwoods to school for $400 on Saturday...I'm back in positive territory for the month! :D

[MountainHawk]

Cool ... I walked out of Casino Niagara up $250 (Cdn) myself. :-) I also walked out to find a flat tire, but I guess you can't win em all.

[Drzy]

Went down $500 in half an hour at Mohegan Sun on Saturday, but I was able to claw back for a $100 profit in the end. 8)

[Expunge]

Why you guys not say you're heading there ahead of time?

[Drzy]

Jables had mentioned it earlier in the thread, MountainHawk was in Canada, and I didn't know I was going until my girlfriend's cousin asked us if we wanted to go. It wasn't exactly the right night for RF'ers. But I'll be happy to go again someday soon if one of us wants to pick a day...........

[Jables]

I'm game for another night at the casino, but I won't be around at all next week...