Blackjack Card Counters

[I Pity the Fool]

What system do you use? Does anyone have a link to an internet site with a good counting system?

[patty_griffin]

over the past 6 months I have netted around $6,000 playing with a base bet of $30 using the system in this book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451190181/qid=1076432343//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i15_xgl14/102-9105899-7072927?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Dr T Non-Fan]

-1 for 10 - A
+1 for 2 - 6

Single bet = double the minimum.
Double bet when +3 or more.
Half bet when -3 or lower.

Find a double-deck table, no reshuffle, with double-down allowed on all two cards, and surrender allowed. And make sure BJ is paid 3-2. I've seen a recent game that has every possible advantage -- double down any number of cards, split all you want, etc. -- EXCEPT that BJ is paid even.
Play optimal strategy with surrender and doubling down.

Shackleford (ASA) has an extremely detailed basic strategy table, which takes into account the actual cards (strategy with 7-9 vs 5 might be different from 10-6 vs 5, for example).

And don't be surprised when advantage to you is a lot rarer than, say, in the movies.

[patty_griffin]

that's an interesting system. the only thing I don't like about it is that it gives Aces the same value as a ten, and the betting, if the deck gets super-favorable, doesn't raise up enough.

otherwise it's a decent system. way better than going in blind.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Vary the bets as you wish. I've found it extremely rare to have an extremely favorable deck.
Also try to find dealers who don't shuffle after only half the deck has been dealt.

[All Clear]

Firstly, if anyone is reading this post and has true count indices for Spanish 21, please post or pm me. I have been trying to find those somewhere for quite some time.

But to the matter at hand- if you not fimiliar with the game and basic strategy, I would highly reccomend "www.wizardofodds.com", which has an option that allows you to see the exact house edge using basic strategy for any specific BJ rules.

If you already know everything about basic strategy and want to learn card-counting, I would reccomend going to "www.gamemasteronline.com", and then clicking on the upper right corner, which says something like "blackjack school, card counting" or something like that. Of all the sites I have seen online, this one has helped me the most, though I would like to see other free sites that discuss the specifics of card counting and indices, if someone else knows any good ones. He uses the basic Hi-Low, with 10, A being -1, and 2-6 being +1. This is the card counting system used by well over 80% of counters, with the second most popular probably being Wong's system, which is far more complex.

In terms of what you should know, I personally leave the table when the True Count (TC) goes below -2, and I find the TC rarely goes above +4 when 8 decks are used (which is the case at all casinos in AC, which is the nearest place to me), so I have memorized ALMOST all the indices between those numbers. The exception being if I have an A-7 (which is the only hand where you sometimes double, sometimes hit, sometimes stand, and is therefore already complex enough for me) or certain pairs (because they come up so infrequent, I may have left one or two out- this doesnt make the biggest difference- count how many times at a casino you get dealt a 6,6 against a dealer 2).

For those that want, I am going to put in the next post a copy of a sheet I have memorized, and keep in my wallet. During the bus rides to AC, or if I am driving and stuck in traffic, I review it, though by now I know everything on it by heart. Remember that all indices shown are of the TRUE COUNT, and not the running count. Also I should point out, that even after counting cards, you still only have a very slight advantage over the house. (As I pointed out in another friend, I am still down a slight amount of money in total after my 4 or 5 trips to AC).

[All Clear]

(r means against any dealer card other than the exceptions shown)
Using AC rules- DD on any 2 cards, DD after split, no surrender, 4 or more decks are used, Dealer stands on soft 17

Player's Hand Decision
5-7, 8r... Hit
8 vs. 6... Double at 3+, o/w Hit
9 vs. 2... Double at 2+, o/w Hit
9 vs. 3... Double at -1 or higher, o/w Hit
9r... Double vs. 4-6, o/w Hit
10... Double vs. 2-9, o/w Hit
11r... Double
11 vs. A... Double at 1+, o/w Hit
12 vs. 2... Stand at 3+, o/w Hit
12 vs. 3... Stand at 2+, o/w Hit
12 vs. 4... Stand at 0+, o/w Hit
12 vs. 5... Stand at -1 or higher, o/w Hit
12r... Stand vs. 6, o/w Hit
13 vs. 2... Stand at -1 or higher, o/w Hit
13r, 14, 15r... Stand vs. 2-6, o/w Hit
15 vs. 10... Stand at 4+, o/w Hit
16 vs. 10... Stand at 0+, o/w Hit
16 vs. A... Stand at 3+, o/w Hit
16r... Stand 2-6, o/w Hit
17-20... Stand

A,2... Double vs. 6 (vs. 5 at 0+), o/w Hit
A,3... Double vs. 5-6, o/w Hit
A,4... Double vs. 5-6 (vs. 4 at 0+), o/w Hit
A,5... Double vs. 4-6, o/w Hit
A,6... Double vs. 3-6, o/w Hit
A,7... Double vs. 3-6, Stand vs. 2,7,8, Hit vs. 9,10,A
A,8... Stand, (except Double vs. 5 at 2+ and vs. 6 at 1+)
A,9... Stand

2,2 and 7,7... Split vs. 2-7, o/w Hit
3,3... Split vs. 3-7 (and vs. 2 at +1), o/w Hit
4,4... Hit, (except Split vs. 5 at +1, & vs. 6 at -1)
5,5 and 10,10... Never Split, check regular totals for 10 or 20
6,6... Split vs. 3-6 (and vs. 2 at -1 and higher), o/w Hit
8,8 and A,A... Always Split
9,9... Split vs. 2-7, and vs. 9, o/w Stand

Take insurance at +3 and higher
Leave table when TC hits -2, minimum bet at TC of -1,0,1, 3X minimum bet at TC of 2,3, 6X minimum bet at TC of 4+

[I Pity the Fool]

EXCELLENT info, thank you!

[O. Hannah]

Patty, you must either play A LOT or they just don't care too much. Basically, don't you ever get thrown out for moving your bet amounts around?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Smaller places will be a bit more nervous. Larger places start to care at $100 bets.
Going from $5 to $25 will get an eye, but why make a big scene for such chump change? Wait until the person moves to the bigger tables,

[All Clear]

From such a positive response by IPTF, I am guessing I will be permitted to attend a future RF trip to foxwoods, even though I count (though I will have to review when to surrender at what count with each hand). In regard to O. Hannah's post, in AC, they are not legally allowed to ban you from a casino or ask you to leave. What they do instead, is when they suspect a counter is playing and making large bets, they will shuffle the deck instantly, and then after every couple of hands. This makes the TC = 0, which of course is never an advantage to anyone, card counter or not. Becuase the minimum bet at AC is $10, and the max bet I ever make is $60, they never bother me in the slightest at such low stakes. The only time it is difficult for me is if I stop betting because the count is so low, and someone else wants to move into my betting circle that wants to make a wager. At that point I guess I have to find a new table.

[3rookie]

All Clear,

When did Atlantic City as a whole change minimums to $10 from $5? I used to play one hand of $5 up to 2 hands of $50, but the last time was 4 years ago.

[All Clear]

I went for the first time when I was 21, around two years ago. I am told that on weekdays late late at night or very early on in the day (at extreme off-peak hours) there are still $5 games at some AC casinos, though I find even more often than that, I run into places that only have minimums of $15 for a hand. I of course leave and find one that has a $10 game. On occasions where I don't want my bankroll to fluctuate much, I may play "Multiple Action Blackjack", which has the exact rules and edges as regular Blackjack, and you can play two hands with $5 bets on each.

[cubedbee]

Wow, AC is expensive. You can find $5 tables pretty easily in Vegas, and can find $1 or $2 if you know where to look.

[3rookie]

I used to play 3-4 times/month, usually on weekdays, so there were plenty of $5 places, and assume there still are.

I know you and I have discussed Spanish 21 before, and I have found no indices. But remember that betting variation is FAR more important than playing strategy variation due to the true count. Not all Spanish 21 games are the same, so even if you do find indices, they may not be ideal for every casino. My suggestion is to know SP21 basic strategy cold, estimate the casino advantage at the start of a shoe (around .5%?), and raise your bet as your true count increases (it still should go up .5% for every +1 change from the initial -4). You make me wish I still lived up north so I could attack this game. You should also practice your counting at home with multiple Spanish decks because it is much harder to count when the count is negative.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

How much do dealers make? Suppose $10 per hour.

Suppose $5 min, 30 hands per hour. (too slow?)
At an average 2% loss for the player, $0.10 per hand gained by house, works to $3.00 per hour.
So, it seems that the house needs at least four players per table just to break even.
Increasing the minimum seems the easiest way to make more money. Close down tables if there aren't enough people playing.

[patty_griffin]

Actually unless the dealer or pit boss is counting the cards too it is almost impossible to tell who is counting cards because most of the players are not counting and they typically will vary their bets more frequently than a card counter. Next time you play just watch a $25-$1,000 table and people will go from 25 to 100 to 200 back to 25. so the only way you know who the counters are is to see who raises the bet only when the count goes positive.

I can immediately tell when I go to a table who is counting and who is not, because I always see people raise their bets at the worst time. but if I wasn't counting I would not know.

most dealer / pit bosses can't count the cards, too much else to worry about.

check this out - one time at a small Indian casino in Wisconsin, I had a deal who counted too, and he slowed down his deal specifically so I could count the cards easier. of course I started tipping regularly.

so basically I stick with the friendly places! here in Florida, the boats don't care if you count, they usually don;t even know.

[3rookie]

How much do dealers make? Suppose $10 per hour.

Suppose $5 min, 30 hands per hour. (too slow?)
At an average 2% loss for the player, $0.10 per hand gained by house, works to $3.00 per hour.
So, it seems that the house needs at least four players per table just to break even.
Increasing the minimum seems the easiest way to make more money. Close down tables if there aren't enough people playing.
The overall edge to the house in BJ in a large casino is usually over 5%. The strategy decisions made by poor players makes it such. The major causes are not doubling & splitting when you should, and taking insurance.

When the casino is dead, that's when you'll see the lower limit tables. But once action picks up, minimums will quickly go from $5 to $10, and the neighboring casinos do the same. Weekends are higher ($10 if you are lucky, at least $15), and holidays are the worst because of crowds and $15 or $25 minimums.

Patti, could you tell me what the rules are on the FL boats? Stay on Soft17, resplits, surrender, 6 decks, double any hand, etc.?

[All Clear]

I used to play 3-4 times/month, usually on weekdays, so there were plenty of $5 places, and assume there still are.

I know you and I have discussed Spanish 21 before, and I have found no indices. But remember that betting variation is FAR more important than playing strategy variation due to the true count. Not all Spanish 21 games are the same, so even if you do find indices, they may not be ideal for every casino. My suggestion is to know SP21 basic strategy cold, estimate the casino advantage at the start of a shoe (around .5%?), and raise your bet as your true count increases (it still should go up .5% for every +1 change from the initial -4). You make me wish I still lived up north so I could attack this game. You should also practice your counting at home with multiple Spanish decks because it is much harder to count when the count is negative.

I make you wish you lived up north? I make me wish you lived up north. I do enjoy blackjack, but don't really want to play that all day when I am at a casino, and the house edge in the don't pass in craps is bothering me, even if it is slight. Counting cards at Spanish 21 and playing without indices, though, just seems wrong to me, as if I am not taking advantage of all that I should be.

[3rookie]

All Clear

When using a Hi-Lo Count, the gain a player receives from altering playing strategy is a fraction of the gain a player receives from bet variation. I need to review to find an approximate difference. But for SP21, and the many different payouts it has, the mastery of the SP21 indices, to me, would add too much complexity for such a small gain. You could create a simulator that helps you with the most common close decisions for SP21, such as hitting 12-14 vs 2-6.

[Bama Gambler]

Hey patty_griffin do you mind editing your link so I don't have to use the scroll bar to read this thread?

Example
Type some descriptive message here (Type url here)

[O. Hannah]

Thankyou for the great explanations.