Poker - How should I have played this?

[Matty]

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Stage #12417688: Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $30 [2004-03-23 23:38:09]
Seat 1 - STR8GUNNER $1775 in chips
Seat 3 - MATTY81 $3472.50 in chips
Seat 5 - POWDERHOUND $1065 in chips
Seat 7 - RONNELL $1865 in chips
Seat 8 - RFJ $5322.50 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 5] ***
RONNELL - Post small blind $30
RFJ - Post big blind $60
MATTY81 - Pocket [Jh,Jc]
STR8GUNNER - Calls $60
MATTY81 - Raises $60 to $180
POWDERHOUND - Folds
RONNELL - Folds
RFJ - Calls $120
STR8GUNNER - Calls $120
*** FLOP [Js,6c,Jd] ***
RFJ - Checks
STR8GUNNER - Checks
MATTY81 - Checks
*** TURN [Js,6c,Jd,6s] ***
RFJ - Checks
STR8GUNNER - Checks
MATTY81 - Checks
*** RIVER [Js,6c,Jd,6s,6h] ***
RFJ - Checks
STR8GUNNER - Checks
MATTY81 - ??????

My thinking was this: At this point it doesn't look like anyone (including me) has a J or a 6, so it looks like it's going to be a 3-way split. If I go all-in, the others will think I'm trying to steal the pot and they will call, hoping for a split. So I went all-in, and they both folded :cry:

So my question is, did I hit it too hard, making it obvious that I was slow-playing all along? What would you have done?

[Former UW]

This is a tough one to play because the best you can hope for if that one of the other two players has a 6 (or 2 sixes).

Given your position howver, it makes sense to place a bet after both other have checked on the tuen. Here I would probably place a bet of about $100. Then you may get a calleer if they feel you do not have a J or 6 and they have a strong kicker.

Since you checked, we move to the river. Here you have no reason to go all in. I would place a bet around $200. Either way, they are probably going to fold, but you have a better chance of getting a caller or a check-raiser.

[Matty]

n/m

[O. Hannah]

I would bet the pot (maybe less)....and make people think you are stealing the 3-way split.

Basically, whatever the table has been stealing with is what I would bet....maybe 200-500.

No one is going to risk elimination when THE BEST they can hope for is to split a couple hundred and walk with a measly 100+.

[abacustwo]

There's a full house on the board, so there are no kickers.

Given your position howver, it makes sense to place a bet after both other have checked on the turn. Here I would probably place a bet of about $100. Then you may get a calleer if they feel you do not have a J or 6 and they have a strong kicker.

Board is J,6,J,6 after the turn.

[vegas]

There's a full house on the board, so there are no kickers.

A full house with only 4 cards? That's impressive.

[Matty]

n/m, when he said "place a bet after they checked on the turn", I thought be meant I should bet on the river.

I have 2 problems with betting on the turn:
1) If they don't have an ace, they're going to fold for sure.
2) If they do have an ace, they may fold anyway, thinking I have a 6 and I've made my boat.

This is a $5 SnG, so I'm not exactly playing against world-class players...at a different $5 SnG yesterday, the board was JJ4 on the flop, J on the turn and J on the river. When I folded my pocket 5s on the river and the other two people split with aces, I told everyone what I had and their response was "why fold? we all split the pot with 4 of a kind"...only 2 of the 9 people at the table (including me) knew what a kicker is! A couple minutes later one of them said "I just called my local casino and you're right, the 5th card plays" :shake:

I wish it had been me with the ace and him with the 5 in that situation!

[vegas]

n/m, when he said "place a bet after they checked on the turn", I thought be meant I should bet on the river.

I have 2 problems with betting on the turn:
1) If they don't have an ace, they're going to fold for sure.
2) If they do have an ace, they may fold anyway, thinking I have a 6 and I've made my boat.

This is a $5 SnG, so I'm not exactly playing against world-class players...at a different $5 SnG yesterday, the board was JJ4 on the flop, J on the turn and J on the river. When I folded my pocket 5s on the river and the other two people split with aces, I told everyone what I had and their response was "why fold? we all split the pot with 4 of a kind"...only 2 of the 9 people at the table (including me) knew what a kicker is! A couple minutes later one of them said "I just called my local casino and you're right, the 5th card plays" :shake:

I wish it had been me with the ace and him with the 5 in that situation!

First of all ............. ROTHLMAO. Please invite me to these tables.

On your logic about betting on the turn, I understand what you are saying. But given your position, a small bet might be viewed as trying to steal. They may call you with a kicker or just to attempt to split the pot.

[FSAme]

Not too much you can do with this hand.. Just be happy you got dealt it.... And check it around and hope that someone tries to steal.

You can try a small bet on the turn or river, but not much will come out of it unless someone has at least an A, a 6, or high wired pair. I personally would wait until the river after that turn card, in hopes that someone catches something on the river.

Also, be glad it didn't get cracked by a straight flush or higher 4 of a kind - see my post in bad beat threads.

[Bama Gambler]

The problem with this hand is pre-flop. You need to raise much more. With JJ you really want to pick the pot up there or at worst play it heads up. If you just double the BB and I'm on the BB I will call with KQ. You know at the $5 tables they are calling with any Ace. Now if you only double the BB you can't feel comfortable with a flop of Kxx, but if you make a big raise you can bet the pot on the flop (when you only have one caller). The other benefit of raising more is when the flop comes Axx and you bet the pot a good player will have to laydown AQ or AJ since he fears you have AK.

[Bama Gambler]

BTW, given the way you played the hand to the river - go allin. Someone might think you are trying to buy it and will call you. Since the likelihood of being called is small you might as well make it worth your while when you are called.

[Expunge]

The problem with this hand is pre-flop. You need to raise much more. With JJ you really want to pick the pot up there or at worst play it heads up. If you just double the BB and I'm on the BB I will call with KQ. You know at the $5 tables they are calling with any Ace. Now if you only double the BB you can't feel comfortable with a flop of Kxx, but if you make a big raise you can bet the pot on the flop (when you only have one caller). The other benefit of raising more is when the flop comes Axx and you bet the pot a good player will have to laydown AQ or AJ since he fears you have AK.
:notworth: You don't want to play JJ in 3 or 4 way action. If you get to 5 way you now can play it as a small pocket only looking for your set. You had a limper already in so standard 3x raise can be changed without giving away too much information. as an approximate i raise to (3+1.5*limpers)xBB when there are limpers before me. This helps to get rid of those that havn't acted yet as well as the blinds.

At a $5 table you don't see anyone laydown AQ or AJ when the flop comes Axx. I doubt you see many at any level lay down AQ without an additional read or tell that AK or 2 pair is present. But the good thing is by coming in strong if an A does come on the flop you can represent AK, but be careful someone else may actually have it.

[Expunge]

BTW, given the way you played the hand to the river - go allin. Someone might think you are trying to buy it and will call you. Since the likelihood of being called is small you might as well make it worth your while when you are called.

Yes might as well go all in, (i think bama said this when i questioned AAAA a while ago.

You might make a small bet on the turn to try to squueze more out, but i think waiting to the river is best. This way you can hope that someone catches an overcard to make what they think is a bigger two pair.

4 of a kinds are almost a cursed hand, players are pretty set in how they will approach the scary board and it all comes down to luck in having someone bet into you.

[Bama Gambler]

as an approximate i raise to (3+1.5*limpers)xBB when there are limpers before me. That works. What I do is call the bet and then raise the pot. For example, blinds 10-20 and two people limp. I will raise to 110 (10+20+20+20+20+90 - where the last 20 is my "call" and the 90 is the amount in the pot after I "call"). Using Expunge's formula we get (3+1.5*2)*20 = 120.

[Matty]

I don't know why it said "raise 60 to 180" because the big blind was 60 so I was actually raising 120 to 180 (raise to 3xBB). I was only on AbsolutePoker because of the free no-deposit $10 bonus, their software isn't very good.

If I raise more than 3x pre-flop, as I see it there are two possible outcomes:
1) No callers and I pick up $150, not very significant as this stage in the tourney.
2) Someone calls me, probably with QQ, KK, AA, AK or AQ and I'm 50-50 or worse, not a good position in the early stages with a good-sized stack.

Is it really worth the risk?

As a mathematically-oriented person I find that I have much more confidence in my post-flop game (when there's more information to analyze) than my pre-flop game (when I've only seen 2 cards out of 7 and I have very little info about other people's hands). Anyone else feel the same way?

[Expunge]

I don't know why it said "raise 60 to 180" because the big blind was 60 so I was actually raising 120 to 180 (raise to 3xBB). I was only on AbsolutePoker because of the free no-deposit $10 bonus, their software isn't very good.


I read it as 120 to 180 or to 3x myself was wondering where bama came up with 2x. Anyways with a limper or two in front of you 3x is no longer enough.

really AP has a free $10 no deposit? Is there a code or something required? I'm a sucker for free money.

[Expunge]

If I raise more than 3x pre-flop, as I see it there are two possible outcomes:
1) No callers and I pick up $150, not very significant as this stage in the tourney.
2) Someone calls me, probably with QQ, KK, AA, AK or AQ and I'm 50-50 or worse, not a good position in the early stages with a good-sized stack.

Is it really worth the risk?

As a mathematically-oriented person I find that I have much more confidence in my post-flop game (when there's more information to analyze) than my pre-flop game (when I've only seen 2 cards out of 7 and I have very little info about other people's hands). Anyone else feel the same way?

situation 1 is good (not just because you picked up 150, but because you also send a message by doing that. QQ, KK, AA are risks and will likely come over the top of you preflop. AK, AQ your about a 55% favorite, why not get their money in the pot.

[Matty]

Yes...found out about it from the good folks at pokerforum.ca

http://pokerforum.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94

[Patience]

What am I missing?? Doesn't he have two pocket Jacks and two on the table??

[Matty]

What am I missing?? Doesn't he have two pocket Jacks and two on the table??

Yes, I had 4 jacks which was the best possible hand given that board....so I'm going to win, the only question is how to get as much of the other people's money into the pot as possible.

[MNBridge]

Here's what I would probably do.

Bet like 1/4 to 1/2 of the pot on the flop. You were the intial raiser so they expect you to bet when they did not. You non bet would alert me more that you may have something than if you had bet.

MY thinking here is his hand was good enough to raise preflop but now he doesn't even want to take a stab at it? Surely you would bet with AK, AQ or any pair. Why is he checking AHHH he has a Jack!!!

Good chance everyone folds and you move on.

Now on the turn if you are lucky enough to get callers, check. Now it really looks like AK or a pair. He wanted to buy the pot on the flop didn't and will be happy to check it down or hope to hit on the river.

River.
If opp bets raise whatever he bets otherwise throw out a bet of about 1/2 the pot or if it is a small stack bet EXACTLY what he has left. I have found that you get more callers betting exactly what someone has than betting all in. Not sure why but test it.

[Voter]

Great analysis in general MNP.
I have found that you get more callers betting exactly what someone has than betting all in.
I've noticed this too. I think it pisses people off - instead of sliding the bar all the way over, you're actually taking the time to taunt them.

[Triweasel]

Great analysis in general MNP.
I have found that you get more callers betting exactly what someone has than betting all in.
I've noticed this too. I think it pisses people off - instead of sliding the bar all the way over, you're actually taking the time to taunt them.

Yeah, I do this too sometimes. It's fun - like you're double-dog-daring them to go all-in.

[Matty]

Solid analysis guys, thanks.

These are the kinds of things I don't consider in the few seconds I have to make my decision, that's why I'm not a really great poker player (yet). I find myself sticking to "rules" like always raise 3x preflop with a good hand, always slowplay a monster hand, etc. instead of looking at the exact circumstances surrounding each hand.