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lawfi5h
04-05-2004, 09:23 AM
A friend of mine...let's call him Jim....

Jim isn't too happy with his job. Last week, he had a nice run playing limit on party. He won about $750 playing 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10, for only about 15 hours. But Jim considers himself a good limit player (better then NL, although NL is much more fun, in Jim's opinion), playing premium hands and not chasing outside shots.

Jim is curious if he can make a living playing online poker. Jim figures if he makes $200 a day, he'd be set. Jim figures he grind it out, and even if it took 8 hours, it would still be much more enjoyable then a 9-5 job in front of a desk with a boss.

I, er sorry, Jim, would be curious to hear the input of some of the great minds in this forum whether this is smart or not. I guess some of Jim's concerns include
1) Taxability
2) The absense of a stable income

Any thoughts?

Bama Gambler
04-05-2004, 09:33 AM
You, err Jim, needs to play about 2000 (just a guess) more hours before he can conclude if he is really a winning player. Go to www.twoplustwo.com and search for expected winning rate (or something similar) and you should be able to find how many hours you need to play before you can get a good estimate of your expected hourly rate and standard deviation. Then you will need to compute the bankroll size needed to stay solvent.

If you pre-tax salary is 50,000 then I would say your pre-tax poker salary needs to be at least 75,000 (for health insurance, retirement, etc.) Of course, playing poker means your income will vary greatly from week to week.

Expunge
04-05-2004, 10:22 AM
I would also guess that Jim would also need to step up a level or two in limits (which likely results in quality players as well). Your win rate in limit will probabily be in X big bets per hour. So increase your limits increases you income. However these better players will reduce your X big bets per hour rate. Also online allows multiple tables at once, however again your bb/hour rate will decrease as you pay less attention to any one game.

For now why don't you work 2 jobs (9-5 with a boss, and 7-11 without a boss) One of the guys on the twoplustwo forums is quite a ways into a year of playing online for a living. He puts out some pretty nice weekly reports.

Also i think if you are serious about this you would definately look into pokertracker as playing as many hours as needed would definately get you running into the same people quite a bit. If I were to do something like this i would schedule a certain amount of time each week learning from expert books/videos. (this time might get cut down some after a year or two, but i think you can learn even from the poor books as it might give you an idea of what others are trying to do) I would also spend X hours a week reviewing my play for the week. Its best to catch leaks as soon as possible.

BTW i also think i'm a better limit player than a NL player, About the only think i prefer to play NL is the SnG's, although lately its a toss up for multi's anyways.
Just my 2 cents.

Expunge
04-05-2004, 10:24 AM
If Jim knew of other players IRL that were trustworthy they could enter into some kind of agreement to help balance out the ups and downs.

Sotally Tober
04-05-2004, 10:27 AM
Something I'd be interested in knowing is since you can play so many more hands online than IRL, how many hours would you need to play to "simulate" the necessary hours to determine if playing full-time online is a viable option? I would guess that an 8-10 hour session IRL might equate to 3-4 hours online? Maybe less?

O. Hannah
04-05-2004, 10:44 AM
I met a guy at a casino that used to be a dealer and started playing for a living on-line. Here were some comments he made...

1) He typically makes more money playing 3/6 on-line than higher limits. The players are worse and looser at 3/6. (Ditto for at a casino too.) This applies to casino play as well.

2) It got to be a bit of a grind playing so much...just like a REAL job.

douglan
04-05-2004, 10:47 AM
Hello all. I'm a friend of Sotally Tober. I play under my alias "douglan", almost exclusively at Poker Stars. As a former actuary (I use the word "former" because the examinations kicked my butt ), I really like these discussion threads.

As an addendum to this series of posts, I am curious as to what it would take to move to Vegas and become a professional poker player. Not that I would give up my job in the pulsating field of ERISA law, but....it seems like all of the great poker players uprooted at some point, headed west to Vegas or Reno or Los Angeles, and started playing professionally. Hellmuth is a prime example of this.

Here are some of my initial questions:

How much of an initial bankroll would you need? (I'm thinking 50,000 to 100,000). To give it a fair shot, you probably need a year's worth of living expenses as well.

Starting out, would you play ring tables or tourneys or both (I like the tourneys, but I think for consistent winning long-term and a steady income, one would play the ring tables).

Just some random thoughts for a monday morning...

MNBridge
04-05-2004, 11:07 AM
Another MAJOR thing to take into account.

Typically sites will have weak times and strong times. For example I find Friday nights from about 7 - 10 are easy pickins.
Same for Sunday afternoons (especially during the $200 tourneys - lots of good players play those).

If you are going to play full time you will be playing midday? Or is this going to be a nighttime gig?
I would be willing to wager that the players playing on Tuesday afternoon are MUCH tougher than those playing on Friday night.

No conclusive evidence just a thought (although I suppose I could check MY win rates using tracker to see if my theory holds any water.)

MNBridge
04-05-2004, 11:10 AM
....it seems like all of the great poker players uprooted at some point, headed west to Vegas or Reno or Los Angeles, and started playing professionally. Hellmuth is a prime example of this.

Here are some of my initial questions:

How much of an initial bankroll would you need? (I'm thinking 50,000 to 100,000). To give it a fair shot, you probably need a year's worth of living expenses as well.

Just some random thoughts for a monday morning...

I see no need to uproot anymore until the on-line games don't offer games that are big enough for your tastes.
Benefits of on line - More hands per hour (If you are a positive EV player this is good). You can live anywhere.
And it is up to you how you report income. (Of course I would recommend reporting and paying taxes on it all but that's me)

For example you win $5,000 in a tourney in vegas (here come the tax forms). You win $5,000 in a tourney on line. No silly forms.

O. Hannah
04-05-2004, 11:14 AM
Great points MN.

Expunge
04-05-2004, 11:26 AM
The advantage of playing live in vegas, there's no question on its legality.

lawfi5h
04-05-2004, 11:44 AM
These are some great pieces of advice.

What is pokertracker? Being of a mathematical background, anything that keeps stats (like hand histories or stuff like that) is of great interest to me.

Any other suggestions on software like that (or more importantly, where I can find it)?

douglan
04-05-2004, 11:47 AM
Another advantage to playing in Vegas is that you can play against the better players face-to-face. On-line play is great, but I think there is a lot to be said for "in-person" play with advanced players. Playing against the best may be expensive, but your game would improve.

MNBridge
04-05-2004, 01:49 PM
These are some great pieces of advice.

What is pokertracker? Being of a mathematical background, anything that keeps stats (like hand histories or stuff like that) is of great interest to me.

Any other suggestions on software like that (or more importantly, where I can find it)?

Poker tracker keeps track of every hand you play and shows various stats. i.e. How often have you had AA what is you win percentage, What is your win / loss amount at each postion, etc.

I'm sure there is tons more info in the database that is shown or easily can be used to find different stats but the one sore spot I have for it is there is no user guide.

I have no idea what some of the columns are or how to use them.

One thing I'd really like to pull out is my all in play. From posts Expunge has done it looks like this is possible but I have no clue how to do it.

www.pokertracker.com

Expunge
04-05-2004, 02:03 PM
Tracker is especially useful if you have MS access at home. They leave the DB portion open so you can get your hands on the data easily and make whatever queries you desire.

Sotally Tober
04-05-2004, 02:07 PM
Tracker is especially useful if you have MS access at home. They leave the DB portion open so you can get your hands on the data easily and make whatever queries you desire.

How much was that again? $40-ish?

Bama Gambler
04-05-2004, 02:11 PM
How much was that again? $40-ish?

Try Poker Tracker for free by downloading the free trial version today. Import up to 1,000 hands with no obligation. If you like the software and want to be able to import more than 1,000 hands, you can purchase a registration code for only $55.00.

Expunge
04-05-2004, 02:13 PM
How much was that again? $40-ish?

Try Poker Tracker for free by downloading the free trial version today. Import up to 1,000 hands with no obligation. If you like the software and want to be able to import more than 1,000 hands, you can purchase a registration code for only $55.00.

I think it was 40 when i purchased it, looks like the price has increased since.

lawfi5h
04-05-2004, 03:34 PM
Can it run if I do not have MS access?

Expunge
04-05-2004, 04:01 PM
Can it run if I do not have MS access?

i believe so, i'm not positive but you can download the trial and see. Not sure if you can get at the data to add any of your own analysis though.

lawfi5h
04-06-2004, 12:00 PM
Reality check:

I dropped $300 last night. I got on tilt on a stupid 2/4 game and tried to make my money back on 5/10, but was still on tilt when trip 2s beat my two pair (BB stayed in on 62o, but got a 2 on the flop...bottom pair...).

I'm not sure i could handle the ups and downs and not be put on tilt easily....er, i mean Jim.

Expunge
04-06-2004, 12:12 PM
Reality check:

I dropped $300 last night. I got on tilt on a stupid 2/4 game and tried to make my money back on 5/10, but was still on tilt when trip 2s beat my two pair (BB stayed in on 62o, but got a 2 on the flop...bottom pair...).

I'm not sure i could handle the ups and downs and not be put on tilt easily....er, i mean Jim.

I think i'm starting to realize when i'm at a potential for being on tilt. (ie if i'm thinking about moving up in levels to make it back faster) If that occurs then i'm start reviewing my play, checking out just how bad the beats really are, anything to stay off the tables, If i can't resist playing then instead of moving up a level i will move down a level if available

O. Hannah
04-06-2004, 12:30 PM
Additionally, you can tighten up your play. (I've caught myself playing looser than I should after getting up in my chip totals and try to work on this flaw.)

I would suggest writing down a set of guidelines for your poker play (like how much to lose, or what kind of gneral hands you will play against a certain table style) and keeping them next to your computer. Then STICK TO THEM or give yourself something like 3 *exception* points a day to use at your discretion.

My occasional problem is that some joker will pull a total boner move (like beat my AA with 8-3ns or J-5ns pre-flop all-in) and I will *want* to wipe them out. I've learned to just laugh that stuff off or the rest of the table will eat your lunch when you try to single out "lucky boy".

FSAme
04-06-2004, 12:40 PM
I would suggest writing down a set of guidelines for your poker play (like how much to lose, or what kind of gneral hands you will play against a certain table style) and keeping them next to your computer. Then STICK TO THEM or give yourself something like 3 *exception* points a day to use at your discretion.


I have the word PATIENCE written on a post it note on my monitor. I've had to remind myself to look at it several times. I seriouly think it's won me a few SnGs and, more effectively, kept me in multi table tourneys.

Speaking of tilting, the best time to catch a great starting hand is right after you get taken down by a bad beat. People think your on tilt and you'll get more action than normal. My rule is to always lay down the next hand after a bad beat, unless it's top 5.

Bama Gambler
04-06-2004, 12:51 PM
My rule is to always lay down the next hand after a bad beat, unless it's top 5.Good rule.

lawfi5h
04-06-2004, 01:39 PM
that's why i like this forum....great advice everyone!

douglan
04-06-2004, 01:55 PM
Great tips!

douglan
04-06-2004, 01:56 PM
Those are really good tips.

Here's my favorite:

When I first started playing, some guy told me that you should "never get married to a hand."

He was talking about players who get dealt good starting hands like AA or KK and then play them way too strongly after the flop. Obviously, you want these hands, but there are also times when you need to slow down or (depending on your opponents bets) even release them when a dangerous flop hits the deck (J 10 9, for example or all suited cards on the flop and you have none of it).

That tip has saved me more than a few times.

My 2 cents.

MNBridge
04-06-2004, 02:06 PM
Here's a couple as long as you promise to not use them against me :)

1) If you've shown weakness you can call with less than if you haven't. i.e. You checked 2nd pair on the flop and turn now Opp bets river. You can probably call.

2) If you raised preflop and hit your hand still bet. Opps are expecting the raiser to bet whether he hit or not so a check will alert them. (Especially true in late position)
2a) If you limped in and hit your hand now you can check as opps won't expect you to bet and a bet would alert them.

3) Note on slowplaying. People are looking out for the slowplay, disguise yours as a bluff.
i.e. No one bets flop, bet 1/2 pot on turn and check river (looking for a reraise is one example -- there would be many)

4) In No Limit Multi's DO NOT take advice from MNPoker he has never placed in the $. (Must be 0 fer 30+ now, with over 3/4 ending up in top 30% but out of the money)

Bama Gambler
04-07-2004, 09:36 AM
4) In No Limit Multi's DO NOT take advice from MNPoker he has never placed in the $. (Must be 0 fer 30+ now, with over 3/4 ending up in top 30% but out of the money)Play loose early when the blinds are low, but only play the hand out if it's strong. Play extremely tight in the middle. Towards the end play tight, but when you do play, play it fast (no slowplaying). Late in the tournament any one hand can take you down so it's often better to win the pot right there.

O. Hannah
04-07-2004, 10:16 AM
So many good comments so I'll give it a shotgun scattering of odd thoughts:

1) Be REAL careful with lower end str8's. ie) flop 8-10 and you are holding a 6....and the 7 comes....congrats someone might have a J.
Also don't get tunnel vision when you hit top str8 and fail to notice that it also put the 3rd heart etc. on the board. :o

2) When it comes to LIMIT holdem....A-x suited are high value hands to me. Flushes hold up really well and if you don't like the flop...you bail cheap. If you are on the flush draw...often there is too much money in the pot for your opponent to push you off the draw....and you get the bonus of milking any poor soul playing 2 suited cards chasing the same flush as you.

3) IMHO, too many people play JJ's like they are some monster hand (full table). Then they get creamed with a flop of Q, K or A or got too aggressive pre-flop and wind up all-in against QQ-AA. CRUNCH!

4) The check-raise is your friend and is a great way to thwack an aggressive player.

Expunge
04-07-2004, 10:22 AM
So many good comments so I'll give it a shotgun scattering of odd thoughts:

1) Be REAL careful with lower end str8's. ie) flop 8-10 and you are holding a 6....and the 7 comes....congrats someone might have a J.
Also don't get tunnel vision when you hit top str8 and fail to notice that it also put the 3rd heart etc. on the board. :o


Also if you check to see that the flush hasn't hit yet, Also check if a house is possible.

*********** # 42 **************
PokerStars Game #372762150: Tournament #1347233, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/04/05 - 22:41:58 (ET)
Table '1347233 1' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: welp7116 (2895 in chips)
Seat 2: lindros37 (2525 in chips)
Seat 4: Xanax44 (610 in chips)
Seat 5: ron2573 (1170 in chips)
Seat 7: 1MoreGame (2920 in chips)
Seat 8: SP0NGE (3380 in chips)
1MoreGame: posts small blind 50
SP0NGE: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SP0NGE [8s 7h]
welp7116: calls 100
lindros37: calls 100
Xanax44: folds
ron2573: folds
1MoreGame: calls 50
SP0NGE: checks
*** FLOP *** [5h 6c 6h]
1MoreGame: bets 200
SP0NGE: calls 200
welp7116: calls 200
lindros37: calls 200
*** TURN *** [5h 6c 6h] [9s]
1MoreGame: checks
SP0NGE: bets 1200
welp7116: folds
lindros37: raises 1025 to 2225 and is all-in
1MoreGame: folds
SP0NGE: calls 1025
SP0NGE said, "nh"
*** RIVER *** [5h 6c 6h 9s] [Ac]
lindros37 said, "ty"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SP0NGE: shows [8s 7h] (a straight, Five to Nine)
lindros37: shows [9d 9c] (a full house, Nines full of Sixes)
lindros37 collected 5650 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5650 | Rake 0
Board [5h 6c 6h 9s Ac]
Seat 1: welp7116 folded on the Turn
Seat 2: lindros37 showed [9d 9c] and won (5650) with a full house, Nines full of Sixes
Seat 4: Xanax44 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ron2573 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: 1MoreGame (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: SP0NGE (big blind) showed [8s 7h] and lost with a straight, Five to Nine

O. Hannah
04-07-2004, 10:47 AM
Yep. Good point Expunge....cause he can slow play that one and hope someone hits flush etc.

foghorn
04-07-2004, 10:56 AM
How would you play that hand then? I am thinking I would play it the same way.

MNBridge
04-07-2004, 12:39 PM
How would you play that hand then? I am thinking I would play it the same way.

Most of the poker books tell you to lay down draws when a pair is on the board.
Little Omaha logic: Don't play drawing hands that aren't drawing to the nuts!

Also (my own thoughts not to be confused with people who know what they are doing).
You should lay down a straight draw when a pair hits quicker than a flush draw because. Given a flop like 778 a player who is playing a 7 is also PROBABLY playing a connector. So if your straight hit there is a good chance he hit (already had) a full house.

Now flushes are a little different. Say flop is 77J with two hearts to you A2h.
If the flush hits (let's make it the 4) there is a MUCH smaller chance he has a fullhouse cause now he needs to be playing 74 or 7J, not likely.

MNBridge
04-07-2004, 12:42 PM
Now in the case of the actual hand above.

SPONGE needs to lay this down. For starters there is a flush draw so of the 8 cards he's hoping to hit 2 make flushes. Down to 6 outs.

If he hits he doesn't have the nuts.

A six outer without the nuts is probably worse than drawing to an inside straight that is the nuts. And I think we all agree we would lay down QJ when the flop is AKx.

(Note in actual play I might not go through the thought process above and do the exact same thing SPONGE did but I am pretty sure it's the wrong play)

foghorn
04-07-2004, 12:53 PM
Now in the case of the actual hand above.

SPONGE needs to lay this down. For starters there is a flush draw so of the 8 cards he's hoping to hit 2 make flushes. Down to 6 outs.

If he hits he doesn't have the nuts.

A six outer without the nuts is probably worse than drawing to an inside straight that is the nuts. And I think we all agree we would lay down QJ when the flop is AKx.

(Note in actual play I might not go through the thought process above and do the exact same thing SPONGE did but I am pretty sure it's the wrong play)

I agree with laying down after the flop. I was looking more after he hit his straight on the turn. I guess he shouldn't have even been there at that point.

Expunge
04-07-2004, 01:07 PM
Now in the case of the actual hand above.

SPONGE needs to lay this down. For starters there is a flush draw so of the 8 cards he's hoping to hit 2 make flushes. Down to 6 outs.

If he hits he doesn't have the nuts.

A six outer without the nuts is probably worse than drawing to an inside straight that is the nuts. And I think we all agree we would lay down QJ when the flop is AKx.

(Note in actual play I might not go through the thought process above and do the exact same thing SPONGE did but I am pretty sure it's the wrong play)

I totally agree. On top of that i'm the chip leader at this point, i don't need to give away my lead chasing a open-ender that can still cripple me if it comes. No way i should call the 200 on the flop, especially with 2 to act behind me that could raise the pot, in which case i would have to fold to a serious raise there and toss that 200 away. However this was real play and the note section applied. Hopefully it turns out that i learned the lesson on this hand and don't make the same mistake in the future.

Expunge
04-07-2004, 01:09 PM
Now in the case of the actual hand above.

SPONGE needs to lay this down. For starters there is a flush draw so of the 8 cards he's hoping to hit 2 make flushes. Down to 6 outs.

If he hits he doesn't have the nuts.

A six outer without the nuts is probably worse than drawing to an inside straight that is the nuts. And I think we all agree we would lay down QJ when the flop is AKx.

(Note in actual play I might not go through the thought process above and do the exact same thing SPONGE did but I am pretty sure it's the wrong play)

I agree with laying down after the flop. I was looking more after he hit his straight on the turn. I guess he shouldn't have even been there at that point.

I think i agree that if i make the straight for free (checks around on the flop too) that i'm on the hook.

Expunge
04-07-2004, 10:05 PM
Here's a set of odds i was a little surprised to see.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=265379
pokenum -h 3d 3s - th jh
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3s 3d 788451 46.05 904324 52.81 19529 1.14 0.466
Jh Th 904324 52.81 788451 46.05 19529 1.14 0.534

Hummer
04-08-2004, 03:02 AM
I had a lengthy argument with two guys online about the very same exception to the PP > 2 over cards argument. They would not believe me.

Happy Extinction
04-08-2004, 07:58 AM
I had a similar arguement but dumber.

I went all in with a pair of 2's (late in a tourney, blinds are high, last chance, etc.)

Guy calls with QKo. I breathe a sigh of relief knowing i am a slight favorite. I win. Two other guys berate me for pulling off such a long shot. i say"what?"

Then I ask, what were the odds do you think?

Other guy says "You were a 3-1 underdog at least!"

Whatever. This goes to show why small pairs can be dangerous heads up or 3 players.

Bama Gambler
04-08-2004, 09:19 AM
Whatever. This goes to show why small pairs can be dangerous heads up or 3 players.Small pair (<88) are pretty weak short handed. You are most likely a very small favorite or a big dog (to an overpair).

Triweasel
04-08-2004, 12:02 PM
If you're about to be blinded out, a low pair gives you a pretty decent shot at staying in the tourney though.

Bama Gambler
04-08-2004, 12:05 PM
If you're about to be blinded out, a low pair gives you a pretty decent shot at staying in the tourney though.Yeah if I'm low stack and less than 3x BB I might gamble with a low pocket pair.

O. Hannah
04-08-2004, 12:23 PM
I would play ANY pockets but would want to limp in with little pockets...but fold-em if it get's pricey or if I miss my set.

Frankly, I kinda like little pockets as it's typically hard to get hurt playing them and when you hit...no one sees it coming....especially the poor sucker that hit the 2pair and gets wiped out.

Hummer
04-08-2004, 12:52 PM
If you're about to be blinded out, a low pair gives you a pretty decent shot at staying in the tourney though.Yeah if I'm low stack and less than 3x BB I might gamble with a low pocket pair.

I will often muck small pockets when I'm medium stack and not in the money. For example, four players left with 3000, 2000, 2000 and 1000 where I have 2000 and blinds are getting high (say 100/200).

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 11:20 AM
Since today seems to be bump old thread day...

First off...lets get this out of the way...RedRooster=lawfi5h.

I am breaking my absense from the forum to ask a very serious question - since the need has arisen (I would rather not divuldge details)..... I hope you can take a precious few minutes from your busy daily schedule to help me out here...

So...if one were to go pro...that is...pick up and move to vegas to play full time...what would you estimate a starting bankroll requirement to be? Sotally and I talked about this this weekend (with regard to someone else) and the general agreement among other people was that $65,000 would be too low. I am thinking that would be enough...and wondering if they think that would be too low cause they are thinking about $10,000 buy in tournaments, not the typical 15/30 game....i mean even a 1000BB swing would only be half your bankroll at $65,000. Of course there are living expenses etc...

Anyway...no restrcitions make up your own assumptions with regard to living conditions...what would you personnally need to pick up and move to vegas. Grant it, I am sure some of you prefer the steady life and don't wanna move for any price...but lets assume you were in my shoes...what amount would make you comfortable?

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 11:25 AM
Assuming that I took it seriously, and studied and practiced so I became a winning player at big levels, I'd probably require a bankroll in the neighborhood of $250K to move to vegas (primarily because I find limit dreadfully boring most of the time, so I think I'd end up being a ring NL player, and $250K would be 25 $10K buyins for a medium size NL game.

win diesel
08-25-2005, 11:31 AM
15/30, I'd want around $8,000 at least. Hawk, $250K? lol

Arachn
08-25-2005, 11:34 AM
I'd want a year's expenses put aside, and a 250-300BB roll. I'd want to be playing a minimum of 15/30 to start and moving up to the 50-100 range by the end of that year.

I guess that means about 50k total - 40k to live on and be able to escape Vegas if need be, 10k to grind out.

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 11:37 AM
15/30, I'd want around $8,000 at least. Hawk, $250K? lol

Yes. I'm risk averse when it comes to things like having money for shelter and food. I live a pretty comfortable life as an actuary doing work I enjoy 80% of the time, so I'm not going to be willing to leave that behind very easily.

$100K of that would probably be non-poker bankroll for life expenses when poker wasn't going well.

Mo' 5!
08-25-2005, 11:38 AM
what would you personnally need to pick up and move to vegas?
To rewind 10 years and change my marital and parental statuses.

In any case, I'd like at least 100K if I was single, 1M in my current situation (wife + 2 kids).

hardinda
08-25-2005, 11:43 AM
Bankroll purposes - $20k (everyone has downswings and I'd like a safe starting amount in case the downswing starts right out of the gun)

Living expense - 1 years worth, anyone know what rent goes for in Vegas? I'd prob prefer prepaying 1 years worth of rent. Then you don't have to worry day to day about paying rent, just worry day to day about eating, but comps could take care of part of that.

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 11:44 AM
Don't forget the annual liposuction costs from eating all the comps. ;)

Sotally Tober
08-25-2005, 11:51 AM
Bankroll purposes - $20k (everyone has downswings and I'd like a safe starting amount in case the downswing starts right out of the gun)

Living expense - 1 years worth, anyone know what rent goes for in Vegas? I'd prob prefer prepaying 1 years worth of rent. Then you don't have to worry day to day about paying rent, just worry day to day about eating, but comps could take care of part of that.
http://www.apartments.com/search/oasis.dll?Rent_Minimum=0&Rent_Maximum=99999&onebdrm=1&am28=3&type_listing=1&mode=4096&current_criteria=%26area1%3DY%26subarea1%3DY%26all sizes%3D1%26allbaths%3D1%26state%3DNV%26rgn3%3D137 %26prvpg%3D5%26type_listing%3D1%26srt1%3D0.36%26sr t2%3D0.18%26srt3%3D0.46%26Rent_Minimum%3D0%26Rent_ Maximum%3D99999&page=Results&area1=Y&subarea1=Y&state=NV&rgn3=137&prvpg=5&cont.x=66&cont.y=6

One BR, near the strip, looks like plan on $850-1000/mo. for a non-dump.

hardinda
08-25-2005, 11:54 AM
http://www.apartments.com/search/oasis.dll?Rent_Minimum=0&Rent_Maximum=99999&onebdrm=1&am28=3&type_listing=1&mode=4096&current_criteria=%26area1%3DY%26subarea1%3DY%26all sizes%3D1%26allbaths%3D1%26state%3DNV%26rgn3%3D137 %26prvpg%3D5%26type_listing%3D1%26srt1%3D0.36%26sr t2%3D0.18%26srt3%3D0.46%26Rent_Minimum%3D0%26Rent_ Maximum%3D99999&page=Results&area1=Y&subarea1=Y&state=NV&rgn3=137&prvpg=5&cont.x=66&cont.y=6

One BR, near the strip, looks like plan on $850-1000/mo. for a non-dump.

So, I think you could do it with $40k in your pocket fairly easily.

$20k bankroll, $10k prepaid apt rent (1 year), $2k for utilities, $8k for emergencies and spending money initially and other expenses (car payments, insurance and such)

In a year, you'd find out if you were a fish or a pro.

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 12:03 PM
In a year, you'd find out if you were a fish or a pro.

This isn't the issue. The issue is bankroll behind my daily nut to absorb bad swings. The first year would be a grind...just like any other job where you bust your hump for a one year to get on your feet. I would expect the same here.

Arachn
08-25-2005, 12:06 PM
The biggest two questions I would flag are: playing stamina: physical, mental, and psychological.

If you're playing for a living, you are going to take many more awful beats than you do now. Can you shrug them off and go back to work.

Mental: can you sustain your best game for long periods?

Physical: its alot of hours.

Can you emotionally handle the downswings of dropping a couple grand a night for a week, and then go play again?

I actually hate to phrase it this way but I can't come up with another: Can you be Knish - grind out the wins every day, play the percentages, and make steady money, or will you risk it all on a single session?

That Goblin
08-25-2005, 12:09 PM
I actually hate to phrase it this way but I can't come up with another: Can you be Knish - grind out the wins every day, play the percentages, and make steady money, or will you risk it all on a single session?To put it another way... can you avoid lawfish moments?

BrewCity
08-25-2005, 12:09 PM
Why don't you try it with the money you have and if you go bust then we know an amount that isn't enough? If you make it then we have a correct answer.

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 12:09 PM
or will you risk it all on a single session?

I would never risk my livelihood. I honestly think I would play even better if I was playing with money I needed to live off of. I might have a bit of a reputation for lawfish moments, but I never...repeat never have gambled with money I need to live off of.

Let's be frank.

-I have the skill
-I have the determination
-I (as it may be) have the need

What I am uncertain of is the bankroll. That is what it has come down to. I know what I have. My question is....is it enough?

Arachn
08-25-2005, 12:14 PM
What's the highest limit that you KNOW (not think, know) you can beat?

Multiply by 200-250. That's bankroll.

Expected income is approximately 2500 big bets per year (50 hours/50 weeks). That's how much you 'should' make.

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 12:17 PM
What's the highest limit that you KNOW (not think, know) you can beat?

Multiply by 200-250. That's bankroll.

Expected income is approximately 2500 big bets per year (50 hours/50 weeks). That's how much you 'should' make.

In vegas? 15/30 I mean limits very by location (both in terms of city and online vs B&M). But in vegas, that is the highest limit I KNOW I can beat. I only say that by virtue of having played it and seen the skill (both as a player and railbird). Amazingly (amazing only if you are not familiar with the vegas rounders) the 15/30 game is MUCH easier to beat than the 10/20 game.

Of course I would still play online, too. That much is a given.

Sotally Tober
08-25-2005, 12:20 PM
Multiply by 200-250. That's bankroll.

Not including a cushion to pay expenses upon first starting, I assume. In my mind, maybe others too, I want to think of the bankroll as serving no other purpose. It's capital and not something I dip into to pay for things outside of poker. All of those things come from income or savings, not what I term "bankroll".

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 12:26 PM
Not including a cushion to pay expenses upon first starting, I assume. In my mind, maybe others too, I want to think of the bankroll as serving no other purpose. It's capital and not something I dip into to pay for things outside of poker. All of those things come from income or savings, not what I term "bankroll".

What a lot of players do is they have a bankroll specifically for poker and a bankroll for living. So that would be like a normal savings account or day to day checking account. They are mutually exclusive except for a regular salary that they pay themselves. Some pay themself an hourly rate, others a flat rate. So one might decide they want to live off $100,00 a year. Anything they make more than that stays in the poker bankroll...

They then adjust this based on performance, like one would also expect like a normal job. If they find they are making (say like Daniel) $5M in a year, they may award themself a bonus, or up that amount. Of course if they are struggling, they may shrink it.

Arachn
08-25-2005, 12:28 PM
Not including a cushion to pay expenses upon first starting, I assume. In my mind, maybe others too, I want to think of the bankroll as serving no other purpose. It's capital and not something I dip into to pay for things outside of poker. All of those things come from income or savings, not what I term "bankroll".

If you are a professional poker player, you will be withdrawing daily from the bankroll (theoretically) to pay your expenses.

Lets say you require $54,750 to live your preferred lifestyle in Vegas. That is $150 per day...if the money does not come from the bankroll (after year one), where does it come from?

Sotally Tober
08-25-2005, 12:34 PM
If you are a professional poker player, you will be withdrawing daily from the bankroll (theoretically) to pay your expenses.

Lets say you require $54,750 to live your preferred lifestyle in Vegas. That is $150 per day...if the money does not come from the bankroll (after year one), where does it come from?

Profit comes from the bankroll in the form of your play. Some goes to you (as a "salary", like RR said), some may go back into the roll, like retained earnings, which may eventually allow you to support a bigger game/income. Like growth for a normal company. I'm trying to figure out how to think of the "up front needs" as a start-up company, per se.

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 12:44 PM
I don't think you could do this unless you had a business model. Not successfully at least. I mean I know there are tons of players..even the big name players...who just play and don't consider these types of things, but they are also the ones that will not be able to provide long term stability for themselves (IMHO).

There would definately be a business plan and a set of rules defining how the money is allocated. I mean lets face it...we all like craps. But if I want to make a living off gambling, I can't be doing it off negative EV games. So stuff like that would HAVE to come from my non poker bankroll...and it would have to be on a very limited basis (like when I am just in the mood to gamble, esp if friends are in town or what not).

That said, I think it would be much harder to do it on my own. Who's ready to roll up a stake and join? Come on hardinda...you know you wanna. Can you imagine that...lawfish and hardinda sharing a one bedroom apartment. LOLOLOLOL Oh man.

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 12:47 PM
I'd have to add you two to any future 'celebrity death pool' entries.

Drzy
08-25-2005, 12:49 PM
I'm surprised no one has brought this up, but you can make a living as a poker pro much easier online than by moving to Vegas. Simply put, Vegas has more fees, more rake, the pace of play is a lot slower (less winnings per hour), and despite an influx of tourists losing their money, I would assume the concentration of poker professionals there would more than cancel that out. Really, the only benefit I can see from Vegas is the access to live action for a change of pace. Otherwise, why not move to Hawaii (or wherever you want) and make your living as an online pro there?

hardinda
08-25-2005, 12:51 PM
I don't think you could do this unless you had a business model. Not successfully at least. I mean I know there are tons of players..even the big name players...who just play and don't consider these types of things, but they are also the ones that will not be able to provide long term stability for themselves (IMHO).

There would definately be a business plan and a set of rules defining how the money is allocated. I mean lets face it...we all like craps. But if I want to make a living off gambling, I can't be doing it off negative EV games. So stuff like that would HAVE to come from my non poker bankroll...and it would have to be on a very limited basis (like when I am just in the mood to gamble, esp if friends are in town or what not).

That said, I think it would be much harder to do it on my own. Who's ready to roll up a stake and join? Come on hardinda...you know you wanna. Can you imagine that...lawfish and hardinda sharing a one bedroom apartment. LOLOLOLOL Oh man.

Ain't gonna happen. I've briefly thought about it during times I'm not happy at work, but it would take the fun out of the game for me. I have alot of fun playing poker, b/c it doesn't affect my daily lifestyle. It's for fun and gives me some side cash. As soon as it's for a living, I know it would become more of a grind. I don't want it to become a grind. I can play 35 SNG's in a night and I don't think of myself as grinding, isn't that ridiculous?

If for some reason I started to get really good and actually win quite a few of the bigger tournies (MTT's) I play in, then maybe I'd reconsider. For now, it's a well payed hobby.

hardinda
08-25-2005, 12:52 PM
I'm surprised no one has brought this up, but you can make a living as a poker pro much easier online than by moving to Vegas. Simply put, Vegas has more fees, more rake, the pace of play is a lot slower (less winnings per hour), and despite an influx of tourists losing their money, I would assume the concentration of poker professionals there would more than cancel that out. Really, the only benefit I can see from Vegas is the access to live action for a change of pace. Otherwise, why not move to Hawaii (or wherever you want) and make your living as an online pro there?

Move out of the country, no taxes is a +EV move.

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 12:57 PM
Move out of the country, no taxes is a +EV move.


You have to surrender your American citizenship to be free of taxes, and if the IRS decides that you surrendered your American citizenship to avoid taxes, they can still hold you liable for them.

hardinda
08-25-2005, 01:01 PM
You have to surrender your American citizenship to be free of taxes, and if the IRS decides that you surrendered your American citizenship to avoid taxes, they can still hold you liable for them.

Isn't that a bummer. IRS always taking the fun out of tax evasion.

jayhawk
08-25-2005, 01:01 PM
1st) read ed miller's recent posts in the 2+2 magazine. Over the past 3 months, he has posted excellent articles on expectations and what it takes to go pro

2nd) for me... If I got divorced, would do it in a heartbeat. Luckily, bankroll isn't an issue thanks to the past 8 years of poker. As for minimum bankroll...
1 years living expenses. Since I would be in Vegas, I would probably spend more money than I do now. Say $6k/month, so $72k (includes traveling expenses of two 2-week vacations a year). On top of that, I would need a car (assuming wife got ours in the divorce), so another $30k.
I would play mainly online, since there are more hands = more money. I would prefer to play 15/30 limit to 30/60 limit and 5/10 nl to 10/20 nl. Let's say I would need 500 BB for 30/60, so another $30k. I would probably also want another $20k for tournaments to experiment and see if I can make them work.

In total, I would need a min of $152k in the bank. Since I would probably wouldn't rent, I would also need another $100k for a downpayment on a house/condo.

3rd) The most important decision to go pro isn't necessarily your initial bankroll, it is also setting expectations on earning potential. The Ed Miller articles are excellent for that. Take your current earn rate and multiply it by .7. Then assume 30 hours/week, since it can get boring. Now determine online vs live, and make sure to have a good health club membership....

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 01:09 PM
Good stuff jayhawk.

Oh, and the health club thing....I already got me a bowflex and a treadmill (collecting dust, but whatever) fully paid for with poker winnings...so I can check THAT off the list! ;)

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 01:11 PM
Good stuff jayhawk.

Oh, and the health club thing....I already got me a bowflex and a treadmill (collecting dust, but whatever) fully paid for with poker winnings...so I can check THAT off the list! ;)


Not unless you use the treadmill for something other than a conveyor belt for beer from the fridge to the CPU. :)

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 01:12 PM
You have to surrender your American citizenship to be free of taxes, and if the IRS decides that you surrendered your American citizenship to avoid taxes, they can still hold you liable for them.

To quote hardinda...ain't gonna happen.

However, I thought that wasn't true in the Grand Cayman's. I will have to look it up, but I thought that was the only tax free nation in the world (both income and sales) which included protection for ex-pats.

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 01:17 PM
To quote hardinda...ain't gonna happen.

However, I thought that wasn't true in the Grand Cayman's. I will have to look it up, but I thought that was the only tax free nation in the world (both income and sales) which included protection for ex-pats.


They may not extradite you, but you also would never be able to come through US customs again without worrying that the IRS hasn't had a warrant issued for you.

TiderInsider
08-25-2005, 01:17 PM
If for some reason I started to get really good...Your definition of really good <> my definition, cause you're there in my book.

Sotally Tober
08-25-2005, 01:20 PM
However, I thought that wasn't true in the Grand Cayman's.

But WAAAAAAY expensive to live there.

Sotally Tober
08-25-2005, 01:21 PM
Your definition of really good <> my definition, cause you're there in my book.
:brown-noser:

For the last time TI, he is NOT going to stake you!!!! ;)

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 01:23 PM
But WAAAAAAY expensive to live there.

Not to mention you are taking the chance that a hurricane comes through and destroys a good part of the island, like happened last year.

HangerAngler
08-25-2005, 01:30 PM
The business plan is imperative. You must get realistic about your expenses in the beginning. Just b/c Xmas isn't a monthly occurence doesn't mean you don't need to budget for it [if you care about it, that is]. Don't forget doctor's visits, haircuts, health insurance, auto maintenance, auto gas, household cleaning products, pet food/vet costs, etc. There are lots of places your money goes when you aren't tracking it constantly and accurately. It will be bright and shining when you're running it off the salary your create from your poker bankroll.

You also have to monitor your results frequently; I'm thinking at least monthly. Look at your bankroll and see how it is doing. Look at your living expenses and see if you've actually budgeted enough to let you live without being miserable.

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 01:33 PM
I could just use cheat-at-poker.com. I keep seeing ads for it. I mean $25,000/MONTH would be good, right?

Sotally Tober
08-25-2005, 01:34 PM
I could just use cheat-at-poker.com. I keep seeing ads for it. I mean $25,000/MONTH would be good, right?
Yes.

hardinda
08-25-2005, 01:37 PM
When did this fascination with moving to Vegas come up anyway? Are you choosing Vegas for the live play aspect or for the location? I could think of much better places to move and still be able to get the live play aspect. Lake Tahoe would be right up there on my list. Golfing and boating in the summer, skiing in the winter. Living off poker. That'd be the life.

That Goblin
08-25-2005, 01:37 PM
I could just use cheat-at-poker.com. I keep seeing ads for it. I mean $25,000/MONTH would be good, right?
No. Not enough. I don't think that's enough to party with the likes of Paris Hilton. Which is the whole point of being rich in the first place.

HangerAngler
08-25-2005, 02:08 PM
No. Not enough. I don't think that's enough to party with the likes of Paris Hilton. Which is the whole point of being rich in the first place.

You think everyone that goes to the same parties she goes to make more than $25K a month? Oh wait, they are probably all actors, actresses, athletes, musicians, writers, or producers. I guess you're right.

Darn. I need to find www.cheat-real-hard-and-real-good-at-poker.com. :borg:

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 02:26 PM
When did this fascination with moving to Vegas come up anyway? Are you choosing Vegas for the live play aspect or for the location? I could think of much better places to move and still be able to get the live play aspect. Lake Tahoe would be right up there on my list. Golfing and boating in the summer, skiing in the winter. Living off poker. That'd be the life.

Good point. Not sure why vegas was THE place...I guess whenever I dream of playing for a living, I've always pictured it being there. I guess there is no particular reason, other than if I plan to play a lot of MTTs, which I think might be more available there.

Castle7
08-25-2005, 02:32 PM
BECAUSE IT IS VEGAS BABY!

I know if I wanted to live somewhere for the live play aspect, there is no doubt, I would be in Las Vegas, end of story....besides, would you really want to be the pro poker player who lived in....Tahoe? :P

hardinda
08-25-2005, 02:34 PM
besides, would you really want to be the pro poker player who lived in....Tahoe? :P

Uh, yeah ... golfer and skiers paradise. If I was playing poker for a career, that'd def open up alot of time to play golf and ski.

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 02:39 PM
BECAUSE IT IS VEGAS BABY!

I know if I wanted to live somewhere for the live play aspect, there is no doubt, I would be in Las Vegas, end of story....besides, would you really want to be the pro poker player who lived in....Tahoe? :P


I wouldn't mind being the pro poker player from North Stonington ... he won the main event. ;)

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 02:43 PM
I wouldn't mind being the pro poker player from North Stonington ... he won the main event. ;)

It don't matter where I live, cause that is where the 06 main event winner will be from.

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 02:45 PM
It don't matter where I live, cause that is where the 06 main event winner will be from.


I agree. The main event winner will be from planet Earth.

USCanuck
08-25-2005, 02:49 PM
I agree. The main event winner will be from planet Earth.


I'm not sure that's where Red Rooster is from! ;)

MountainHawk
08-25-2005, 02:51 PM
He's not. He's part of the scout team from the planet Justice, who are devising a plot to liberate Earth from lawyers, hence we let him live here.

DblDownTrent
08-25-2005, 02:59 PM
He's not. He's part of the scout team from the planet Justice, who are devising a plot to liberate Earth from lawyers, hence we let him live here.

:crazy:

:tfh:

:borg:


:slug:



(glad I could contribute to this thread).

Good luck if you go RR.

Why move? Why not just play 1,000 $100 SnGs a month at a 10% ROI and that's 10k a month, plus $2,250 in rakeback. I think this can be done in 187 hours if you 4 table, 94 if you can 8 table. that's only 23 hours a week. Starting bankroll needs would only be about $8k.

MNBridge
08-25-2005, 03:08 PM
I look at it this way.

I can play up to $100 / 200 at time time I want. So until that game isn't big enough I have no reason to move.

As for quitting my job, it would be a very gradual thing. It wouldn't be that hard to play 20 hours per week AND work full time. If you are good enough to go pro you should have a pretty sizable bankroll / income from those 2 or 3 years.

Figure play 20 hours per week at a rate of $180 per hour (that's 2 BB / 100 - 2 tabling 30 / 60) that's $14K+ a month for 2 or 3 years and you have over $500K in winnings*.
* That assumes you didn't even ever move up to the 50 / 100 or 100 / 200 or get better than being a 2 BB / 100 player <-- which to me would not be enough.

Pay off everything and go.

Til then no amount of money would do it. I don't just want a bankroll I want proof I can make very good $'s.

There is no way you can make as much in live games as you can on the net UNLESS you play for higher stakes than are available on the net.

Mo' 5!
08-25-2005, 03:18 PM
Or play several of the WCOOP events since your focus will be on MTTs. Use your performance there as the yardstick by which you measure your potential.

I might be in the minority on this one, but I say to study for your FSA and obtain it while you're not "working."

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 03:28 PM
Or play several of the WCOOP events since your focus will be on MTTs. Use your performance there as the yardstick by which you measure your potential.



That is a hell of an idea...except that I can't. I got too many things going on in september (weddings, cancun, Texas/OSU game, Browns games) that I am only gonna be around for like 2 hold em events.

hardinda
08-25-2005, 03:31 PM
I'd suggest staying away from MTT's if you are going pro. Variance is way too high.

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 03:33 PM
I'd suggest staying away from MTT's if you are going pro. Variance is way too high.

I agree. However, it is something I aspire too. That was what I was aluding to before when I said the first year or so will be a grind. But my MTT game is by far my strongest and once I have a bigger roll to manage the variance, that will probably be what I exclusively play.

jayhawk
08-25-2005, 04:16 PM
I look at it this way.

I can play up to $100 / 200 at time time I want. So until that game isn't big enough I have no reason to move.

As for quitting my job, it would be a very gradual thing. It wouldn't be that hard to play 20 hours per week AND work full time. If you are good enough to go pro you should have a pretty sizable bankroll / income from those 2 or 3 years.

Figure play 20 hours per week at a rate of $180 per hour (that's 2 BB / 100 - 2 tabling 30 / 60) that's $14K+ a month for 2 or 3 years and you have over $500K in winnings*.
* That assumes you didn't even ever move up to the 50 / 100 or 100 / 200 or get better than being a 2 BB / 100 player <-- which to me would not be enough.

Pay off everything and go.

Til then no amount of money would do it. I don't just want a bankroll I want proof I can make very good $'s.

There is no way you can make as much in live games as you can on the net UNLESS you play for higher stakes than are available on the net.

What I like most about this plan is that even if you only played 15 hrs/wk for 2 years you will know you can make it, and that poker will still be a good source of income in 2 years. The games have been soft before, and have gotten much worse. That type of cycle can happen again. I am very glad that I was winning money before this boom, because if I did decide to go full time, I think I would survive a downturn.

Another issue is how easy it would be to get another job if it didn't work out? I like to think I could always find a job, but who knows if anyone would want an FSA out of work for 5 years.

MNBridge
08-25-2005, 04:18 PM
I might be in the minority on this one, but I say to study for your FSA and obtain it while you're not "working."

At least one person agrees. But go FCAS ;)

I know if I ever decide to 'go pro' and decide it's not for me I can always come back to a nice six figure income.
Even if you never do come back that's a nice parachute to have.

Judge Dredd
08-25-2005, 04:18 PM
Thanks all for your advice. I am gonna refire up my blog (see here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawfish)) to keep you updated, if you wish.

Daily updates starting tonight!

Mo' 5!
08-25-2005, 05:02 PM
Another issue is how easy it would be to get another job if it didn't work out? I like to think I could always find a job, but who knows if anyone would want an FSA out of work for 5 years.
Five years is a long time to determine if you're not cut out for the pro life. Have a feeling that RR will know in a year (two max) if he can sustain the life. That being said, you can always start your own consulting company and do some light actuarial jobs on the side. Go to actuarial conferences to keep up with CE credits and the latest developments. That way your resume will not have any gaps in it.

jayhawk
08-25-2005, 06:30 PM
Five years is a long time to determine if you're not cut out for the pro life. Have a feeling that RR will know in a year (two max) if he can sustain the life. That being said, you can always start your own consulting company and do some light actuarial jobs on the side. Go to actuarial conferences to keep up with CE credits and the latest developments. That way your resume will not have any gaps in it.

I am assuming that I can make it, but get bored with it after 5 years. Hopefully I would know within a year if it is a lifestyle I would like. I get bored within 2 years of any job I have ever had.

lawfi5h
08-26-2005, 03:28 PM
I found my the password to my old ID long enough for 1 last post. Thanks to all of those who offered advice yesterday.

I am not sure what path I'll take. I have a lot of options, and I'll sift through those and try to figure out what I wanna do. Most of you have my email address and I'll be on MSN from time to time and would love to hear from you.

The one thing I do know is that whatever path I choose, it won't involve posting here. I would rather not leave on a bad note, so I'd rather just leave it at that, but those closest to me understand. But the friends I have made on here, and those that I have met IRL I value, so I hope they will continue to let me know how there are doing. Just know that without this place, I could not have made the tens of thousands that I have in poker. God's honest truth.

Just remember...when I see one of you at a big TV final table, you won't even have to ask...I'll chop up the cash with ya. But we are going to war for that title!!!!! :D

douglan
08-26-2005, 03:47 PM
Lawfish - does this mean that I will have to pick fights with MountainHawk to fill the void created by your departure from the forum? ;)

IMP
08-26-2005, 03:53 PM
I found my the password to my old ID long enough for 1 last post. Thanks to all of those who offered advice yesterday.

I am not sure what path I'll take. I have a lot of options, and I'll sift through those and try to figure out what I wanna do. Most of you have my email address and I'll be on MSN from time to time and would love to hear from you.

The one thing I do know is that whatever path I choose, it won't involve posting here. I would rather not leave on a bad note, so I'd rather just leave it at that, but those closest to me understand. But the friends I have made on here, and those that I have met IRL I value, so I hope they will continue to let me know how there are doing. Just know that without this place, I could not have made the tens of thousands that I have in poker. God's honest truth.

Just remember...when I see one of you at a big TV final table, you won't even have to ask...I'll chop up the cash with ya. But we are going to war for that title!!!!! :D
:cry:

MountainHawk
08-26-2005, 03:54 PM
Lawfish - does this mean that I will have to pick fights with MountainHawk to fill the void created by your departure from the forum? ;)

You are a mere lawyer. You'll never be able to fill the void in an argument for lawfish. ;)

Triweasel
08-26-2005, 04:18 PM
we'll miss you law, gl

Wino In Training
08-27-2005, 04:06 AM
Looks like Barry Greenstein's new book might have some interesting insights - hope you're still reading this, law....

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/calistri14.htm

lawfi5h
10-28-2005, 01:48 PM
Since today seems to be bump old thread day...

First off...lets get this out of the way...RedRooster=lawfi5h.

I am breaking my absense from the forum to ask a very serious question - since the need has arisen (I would rather not divuldge details)..... I hope you can take a precious few minutes from your busy daily schedule to help me out here...

So...if one were to go pro...that is...pick up and move to vegas to play full time...what would you estimate a starting bankroll requirement to be? Sotally and I talked about this this weekend (with regard to someone else) and the general agreement among other people was that $65,000 would be too low. I am thinking that would be enough...and wondering if they think that would be too low cause they are thinking about $10,000 buy in tournaments, not the typical 15/30 game....i mean even a 1000BB swing would only be half your bankroll at $65,000. Of course there are living expenses etc...

Anyway...no restrcitions make up your own assumptions with regard to living conditions...what would you personnally need to pick up and move to vegas. Grant it, I am sure some of you prefer the steady life and don't wanna move for any price...but lets assume you were in my shoes...what amount would make you comfortable?

:bump:

Why did I bump, you ask? Cause I got laid off today. :cry:

Cohete009
10-28-2005, 01:49 PM
:bump:

Why did I bump, you ask? Cause I got laid off today. :cry:

Ugh, sorry to hear that l5.

That Goblin
10-28-2005, 01:50 PM
:bump:

Why did I bump, you ask? Cause I got laid off today. :cry:I'm sorry to hear that...

So you going pro?

Bama Gambler
10-28-2005, 01:50 PM
:bump:

Why did I bump, you ask? Cause I got laid off today. :cry:Dude that sucks. Big time. Sorry I don't have any advice, maybe some of the full-time pros on here can give you some.

Arachn
10-28-2005, 01:51 PM
law....sorry to hear about it, but good luck. You will land on your feet, I'm sure of it.

hardinda
10-28-2005, 01:53 PM
Bummer, not much else I can say.

GL and think of it as an opportunity

Mo' 5!
10-28-2005, 01:58 PM
Sorry to hear that, Law. I was laid off from my last company. Although it was a slow process that took over six months to materialize. I was able to find another job during that time and also received a nice severance package on top. If you do go pro, set some achievable daily, weekly, monthly targets and stick to them. Maybe we'll see you on TV one day. ;)

DblDownTrent
10-28-2005, 02:03 PM
Sorry to hear that law. :(

fallout
10-28-2005, 02:16 PM
Best of luck law! Maybe this will turn into something positive.

IMP
10-28-2005, 02:19 PM
ugh. sorry to hear law. i was laid off too...well, actually, i was kinda just let go...not sure if hardinda knows (or cares) what the real story there was. in any event, i landed on my own two feet, and i know you certainly will too. keep your chin up. there are plenty of recruiters out there if you want to stay in the industry. who knows, maybe going pro is the avenue for you. either way, you seem to be the kinda guy who gets right back on his feet again. best of luck to you.

Bama Gambler
10-28-2005, 02:22 PM
didn't know you were laid off too IMP. sorry to hear that. did you work at the same place as hardinda?

IMP
10-28-2005, 02:37 PM
didn't know you were laid off too IMP. sorry to hear that. did you work at the same place as hardinda?i worked with hardinda only briefly...like a couple of months. he was there just a short time when i left. like i said, i wasn't exactly laid off. bottom line...i was treated like crap, but i didn't want to quit b/c i wanted a package and unemployment, so i acted like the crap they were treating me as, and waited for them to let me go. it worked out just fine for me. :D

fallout
10-28-2005, 02:41 PM
i worked with hardinda only briefly...like a couple of months. he was there just a short time when i left. like i said, i wasn't exactly laid off. bottom line...i was treated like crap, but i didn't want to quit b/c i wanted a package and unemployment, so i acted like the crap they were treating me as, and waited for them to let me go. it worked out just fine for me. :D


I love happy endings.

Bama Gambler
10-28-2005, 02:49 PM
i worked with hardinda only briefly...like a couple of months. he was there just a short time when i left. like i said, i wasn't exactly laid off. bottom line...i was treated like crap, but i didn't want to quit b/c i wanted a package and unemployment, so i acted like the crap they were treating me as, and waited for them to let me go. it worked out just fine for me. :Dgood for you!

bfore13
10-28-2005, 03:07 PM
Sorry to hear that, Law. :sad:

lawfi5h
10-28-2005, 05:12 PM
hey, when life hands you a bad beat....you make ....

a lawfish moment I guess.



Sorry...bad joke.

Happy Professional
10-28-2005, 05:15 PM
hey, when life hands you a bad beat....you make ....

a lawfish moment I guess.



Sorry...bad joke.

Don't let the man keep you down! Very very sorry fi5h.

Go to political and beat up on 2Pac if it will make you feel better.

MNBridge
10-28-2005, 05:15 PM
Sorry to hear about that.

Hummer
10-28-2005, 06:42 PM
Hummer says Bummer Fish :crying:

knowles
10-28-2005, 10:26 PM
My condolences, law.

I had a serious conversation with my gf last week about whether or not I could supplement unemployment checks (60% of income, i think) with poker winnings and casino whoring if I ever got let go. I came to the conclusion that I could (and you're much better than me).

Whatever you decide to do from here, good luck.

E. Blackadder
10-28-2005, 10:54 PM
Nasty.

Don't play poker until you've had a couple nights' sleep. Then go for the throat. Just a recommendation.

Butters
10-31-2005, 11:30 AM
Sorry to hear it, lawfi5h. I hope you got a nice severance package.

snafu
10-31-2005, 12:34 PM
could be a real opportunity. Between severance and unemployement you can give professional poker a real shot for a short term.

Just remember that if you are giving the pro's a shot, no lawfish moments allowed.

Good luck and sorry to hear about you circumstances.

axjoke
10-31-2005, 12:51 PM
Sorry to hear about the loss. However, I agree with Snafu, this does give you the opportunity to pursue another passion or at least for the short term. Good luck with your future endeavers!

Sotally Tober
10-31-2005, 02:19 PM
Just remember...no lawfish moments allowed.

:lolup:

Good one. I'd settle for relatively small lawfi5h moments.

In all seriousness, I don't predict law will be having bad moments any time soon. At least, I hope not.

Triangle Man
10-31-2005, 02:24 PM
Sorry, Law.

lawfi5h
10-31-2005, 02:46 PM
Thanks guys.

But you know, it would be nice to do something with this time - like making a run at playing poker for a living, but my overriding concern at this point is MONEY - which for a "pro" is really the last thing one should be concerned about. I have enough to live the same way for X months. And I feel like I can get a job in X months. The problem is if I don't have something by then, I'll have wished I didn't spend so freely and that I tightened up. So I feel it prudent at this point to tighten up,you know? I don't even feel like I can set aside $1, let alone thousands, to play for a few weeks and see if I can do it.

axjoke
10-31-2005, 03:03 PM
Thanks guys.

But you know, it would be nice to do something with this time - like making a run at playing poker for a living, but my overriding concern at this point is MONEY - which for a "pro" is really the last thing one should be concerned about. I have enough to live the same way for X months. And I feel like I can get a job in X months. The problem is if I don't have something by then, I'll have wished I didn't spend so freely and that I tightened up. So I feel it prudent at this point to tighten up,you know? I don't even feel like I can set aside $1, let alone thousands, to play for a few weeks and see if I can do it.


If castle can drum up 10k? to run his experiment then, it seem like you could do the same (no offense castle) at least enough for an adequate bankroll at lower limits. I have no idea what your financial needs are, but I have no doubt you could beat 2/4 limit (no offense if this is below your level) to pay the bills and then take stabs at higher limits as you financial situation improves.

I would put some money where my mouth is if others did the same, under the assumption that no lawfish moments were to occur! ;)

IMP
10-31-2005, 03:09 PM
why don't you be mr. mom. let the woman work and you do the cooking and the cleaning....and the poker playing. hey...you could even have poker night with the girls using coupons instead of money!

Castle7
10-31-2005, 03:47 PM
Wow - a post that mentioned me specifically that didn't involve Paigow? I'm not sure what to think. :P

My experiment taught me...
Listen to MN, play with your own money. Right after I started, my results suffered, and I felt a "need" to do better for my investors, and it became a downward spiral. After I paid out - my game seems to have magically improved, so basically I got to enjoy publically posted one of the worst card playing periods of my life - good times. (Although I certainly agree with axjoke that you could certainly get a reasonable roll together just with the help of the AO, but I don't think you really need to)

Law - Let's suppose you are really broke broke broke. (Sorry to hear about your job) Couldn't you at least take $500 and play Mr. Bonus Whore to build that up a little, rewithdraw your $500 and start to build a roll that can play bigger limits. It would stink for a couple months probably, but you would then be able to play with money you didn't have before anyway....

Edited to add - Rewithdraw? I guess that means you put money back in? :duh:

Triangle Man
10-31-2005, 03:49 PM
why don't you be mr. mom. let the woman work and you do the cooking and the cleaning....and the poker playing. hey...you could even have poker night with the girls using coupons instead of money!Would he be able to resist the charms of Ann Jillian? I'm not sure I could.

axjoke
10-31-2005, 03:54 PM
Wow - a post that mentioned me specifically that didn't involve Paigow? I'm not sure what to think. :P

My experiment taught me...
Listen to MN, play with your own money. Right after I started, my results suffered, and I felt a "need" to do better for my investors, and it became a downward spiral. After I paid out - my game seems to have magically improved, so basically I got to enjoy publically posted one of the worst card playing periods of my life - good times. (Although I certainly agree with axjoke that you could certainly get a reasonable roll together just with the help of the AO, but I don't think you really need to)

Law - Let's suppose you are really broke broke broke. (Sorry to hear about your job) Couldn't you at least take $500 and play Mr. Bonus Whore to build that up a little, rewithdraw your $500 and start to build a roll that can play bigger limits. It would stink for a couple months probably, but you would then be able to play with money you didn't have before anyway....

Edited to add - Rewithdraw? I guess that means you put money back in? :duh:


Weren't you trying higher limits than you usually played? I agree with castle, playing for bonuses (while less exciting) basically guarantees that you'll make money at the lower limits.

lawfi5h
10-31-2005, 03:58 PM
Maybe. I tried bonus whoring a few months ago and I HATED IT. My first try, I busted through my bonus deposit, and then felt the need to redeposit to continue to clear the bonus, only to lawfish moment that money away, too.

Then last month I turned $100 on full tilt into $1000 in 15 days (no joke), and then got tempted by stars reload bonus, so I moved $600 over there, only to blow through that and then the rest of the $400 on FT to try to clear the bonus.

So yeah, me and whoring don't go together so good.

Castle7
10-31-2005, 03:59 PM
Online - Yes, Higher Limits.
Live Play - No, for the simple reason that I already feel comfortable playing in the local 15/30 (the biggest game besides the 5-10 blind PL game with a min 500 buy-in no max, which I don't play because it has Omaha in it, and I figure that is a bad place to get my feet wet with Omaha), and I have a four hour drive to see a 30/60 game...

Where's Hardinda - I want to order a high-roller jacket. :)

That Goblin
10-31-2005, 04:04 PM
play Mr. Bonus WhoreA good point. I believe using Absolute alone with rakeback and bonuses would be an excellent low risk supplement to unemployment and severence. Its not a huge amount of money but a good way to stay afloat in between jobs. With $2000-$3000 you basically have an endless supply of bonuses. The 6-handed limit HE tables are very beatable and clear bonuses very quickly.

Castle7
10-31-2005, 04:05 PM
Maybe. I tried bonus whoring a few months ago and I HATED IT. My first try, I busted through my bonus deposit, and then felt the need to redeposit to continue to clear the bonus, only to lawfish moment that money away, too.

Then last month I turned $100 on full tilt into $1000 in 15 days (no joke), and then got tempted by stars reload bonus, so I moved $600 over there, only to blow through that and then the rest of the $400 on FT to try to clear the bonus.

So yeah, me and whoring don't go together so good.

Castle7's tips to better bonus whoring....Play tight. I mean tight. No, tighter than that. TIIIIIIIIIGHT, painfully tight. Reduce your variance of the cards, taking a slight -EV hit on the amount of hands you play in exchange for clearing the bonus without much risk of losing the deposit. Practice playing weak-tight if you have to, you will still come out ahead of the bonus game that way.

IMP
10-31-2005, 04:07 PM
Castle7's tips to better bonus whoring....Play tight. I mean tight. No, tighter than that. TIIIIIIIIIGHT, painfully tight. Reduce your variance of the cards, taking a slight -EV hit on the amount of hands you play in exchange for clearing the bonus without much risk of losing the deposit. Practice playing weak-tight if you have to, you will still come out ahead of the bonus game that way.where were you when i needed that advice? :(

That Goblin
10-31-2005, 04:10 PM
Castle7's tips to better bonus whoring....Play tight. I mean tight. No, tighter than that. TIIIIIIIIIGHT, painfully tight. Reduce your variance of the cards, taking a slight -EV hit on the amount of hands you play in exchange for clearing the bonus without much risk of losing the deposit. Practice playing weak-tight if you have to, you will still come out ahead of the bonus game that way.That's funny. I play the opposite. I play 1/2 LHE short handed and I play loose. I'm sure playing tight works well over at loosey goosey Party but mark my word, the heyday of low limit bonus whoring at Party are over!

Castle7
10-31-2005, 04:12 PM
Okay IMP, since you didn't get that last one in time (although you have it now), I have some more general advice for any poker player....

I have noticed, that if I don't force myself to SPECIFICALLY play rigid pre-flop requirements once every couple months, that I eventually start thinking I am so good I can loosen up far more than I really can. I am always shocked at how my game naturally loosens up over time and I must constantly tell myself to play a tight game, only deviating for specific reasons.

If you haven't thought about your starting requirements in a while, do it. It will help.

Castle7
10-31-2005, 04:13 PM
That's funny. I play the opposite. I play 1/2 LHE short handed and I play loose. I'm sure playing tight works well over at loosey goosey Party but mark my word, the heyday of low limit bonus whoring at Party are over!

Short handed. Entirely different game. 'nuff said.

That Goblin
10-31-2005, 04:15 PM
Okay IMP, since you didn't get that last one in time (although you have it now), I have some more general advice for any poker player....

I have noticed, that if I don't force myself to SPECIFICALLY play rigid pre-flop requirements once every couple months, that I eventually start thinking I am so good I can loosen up far more than I really can. I am always shocked at how my game naturally loosens up over time and I must constantly tell myself to play a tight game, only deviating for specific reasons.

If you haven't thought about your starting requirements in a while, do it. It will help.When playing full ring limit, I follow the SSH starting hand chart to the letter. With pretty damn good results. It goes pretty slow though when 4-tabling. However, when playing short handed, I throw the chart away. I either raise or fold. Limping is for babies.
Edit - as Castle correctly pointed out, Short handed is a different game. i will stop comparing apples and oranges.

Arachn
10-31-2005, 04:27 PM
Castle7's tips to better bonus whoring....Play tight. I mean tight. No, tighter than that. TIIIIIIIIIGHT, painfully tight. Reduce your variance of the cards, taking a slight -EV hit on the amount of hands you play in exchange for clearing the bonus without much risk of losing the deposit. Practice playing weak-tight if you have to, you will still come out ahead of the bonus game that way.

I just play my normal game when I'm whoring. Exception is if I'm doing hardcore hours ie 4-tabling low limit to get hands in, then I'm tight just cause I'm 4-tabling.

I hate hate hate anyone doing anything other than just playing their very best poker - by definition you're giving up EV if you playing suboptimal (for you).

Castle7
10-31-2005, 04:56 PM
Spidy - I totally agree....except....in this specific instance we are assuming a person trying to build a bankroll who can't afford to lose the initial buy-in, so I recommend a positive strategy that will minimize variance.

lawfi5h
08-08-2007, 04:33 PM
A friend of mine...let's call him Jim....

Jim isn't too happy with his job. Last week, he had a nice run playing limit on party. He won about $750 playing 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10, for only about 15 hours. But Jim considers himself a good limit player (better then NL, although NL is much more fun, in Jim's opinion), playing premium hands and not chasing outside shots.

Jim is curious if he can make a living playing online poker. Jim figures if he makes $200 a day, he'd be set. Jim figures he grind it out, and even if it took 8 hours, it would still be much more enjoyable then a 9-5 job in front of a desk with a boss.

I, er sorry, Jim, would be curious to hear the input of some of the great minds in this forum whether this is smart or not. I guess some of Jim's concerns include
1) Taxability
2) The absense of a stable income

Any thoughts?
you shoulda quit your job. moron.

Sotally Tober
08-08-2007, 04:41 PM
I thought he did, when he went and got another one. :shrug:

It's great having the fi5h back. Just like old times. Ahhhhh......

That Goblin
08-08-2007, 04:43 PM
you shoulda quit your job. moron.

You make a good point, lawfi5h.

lawfi5h
08-08-2007, 04:43 PM
You make a good point, lawfi5h.
:clap:

IMP
12-11-2007, 12:43 AM
:bump: