$5sng - bad bad move

[fallout]

***** Hand History for Game 507341911 *****
Table Table 12332 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: tdt20 ( $3040 )
Seat 2: theman131 ( $1213 )
Seat 3: fallaway ( $1825 )
Seat 7: JaniO ( $1787 )
Seat 8: jace22 ( $135 )
Trny:3074033 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fallaway [ 7d 7h ]
theman131 folds.
fallaway raises [500].
JaniO folds.
jace22 folds.
tdt20 calls [300].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Ac, 6d ]
tdt20 checks.
fallaway is all-In.
tdt20 calls [1325].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]
tdt20 shows [ 6s, 6h ] four of a kind, sixes.
fallaway shows [ 7d, 7h ] two pairs, kings and sevens.
fallaway finished in fifth place.
tdt20 wins 3750 chips from the main pot with four of a kind, sixes.
fallaway has left the table.

TD20 was a calling station the whole tournament. I didn't have a legitamte winner for quite some time, simply bought my survival. I think I guessed poorly this time.

[Hummer]

You were correct in assuming he did not have an Ace.

I probably would have either limped in or gone all-in pre-flop.

[foghorn]

Yeah, maybe just a little too aggressive with the sevens. If you hold out until the turn and get the third seven, then you go all in and lose to the 6's. :wink:

[Bama Gambler]

The import lesson here is who you are up against - the chip leader. He's the only one that can knock you out so tread lightly.

[foghorn]

Perfect topic for this hand last night.

I started the game on the SB with Player A on the BB and player B UTG.
Player B raises 5x (100) and gets 4 or 5 callers, I fold, and Player A goes all-in. Everyone folds. We play a few hands, and next time I'm on the SB Player B raises 3x, gets a few callers, I fold and Player A is all-in. Everyone folds to Player A, then Player B and A start talking smack. Player B says he's going to bust Player A on that and can't wait to do it. Player A says go ahead. So to start the next hand, Player A goes all-in and Player B calls. I'm sitting there with QQ.

I call.

Player A has A3o, and player B has AA. No help on the board, I'm way down.

I usually don't risk my stack this early, but they seemed prime for the picking. Oh well...lesson learned I guess.

[Bama Gambler]

Oh well...lesson learned I guess.What lesson did you learn. I think I'm calling there too.

[foghorn]

Oh well...lesson learned I guess.What lesson did you learn. I think I'm calling there too.

Really?

I usually don't put all my chips in that early when two people are already all-in. Late in a tourney, yes, but not that soon on a $5 SnG. Maybe with AA.

[Bama Gambler]

Maybe with AA.So you would fold AA pre-flop?

[Bama Gambler]

Really?Yes. I'm not laying down QQ in a $5 SNG. Maybe if three players are all-in before me. In this case it's even easier to call, b/c Player A is clearly a moron and going all-in with many hands and Player B is tired of him doing it so he can call with AK, AQ, JJ, TT.

[foghorn]

Maybe with AA.So you would fold AA pre-flop?

I suppose that was a bit of an exaggeration to illustrate how cautious I try to be early in a game. I've never folded AA pre-flop.

[foghorn]

Really?Yes. I'm not laying down QQ in a $5 SNG. Maybe if three players are all-in before me. In this case it's even easier to call, b/c Player A is clearly a moron and going all-in with many hands and Player B is tired of him doing it so he can call with AK, AQ, JJ, TT.

I definitely considered laying down QQ. It was early in the tourney and I didn't have much of a read on either player. Yes, Player A had been all-in twice before, but he could have had hands, and what a perfect time with that many players building the pot, to go all-in and steal the pot.
Player B turned out as I watched to be a good player, but you are right, he would have called with any of those hands, and I probably would have too, being the first to act after the all-in.
I'm thinking if it happened tonight, I would lay it down.

[Cohete009]

NEVER lay down QQ preflop in a $5 SNG. Are you kidding me? Don't tell me if you were playing at a casino, you would fold at a 1-2 table (or whatever) if someone raised in front of you and it would cost you $5 or more to see the flop. I'm all in every time! If you bust, so be it. It is only $5. If it was a $20 or higher tourney, I would think about it, but here I think it is really no decision at all.

[FSAme]

It is only $5. If it was a $20 or higher tourney, I would think about it, but here I think it is really no decision at all.

I usually play the same way no matter what the buy-in. $5 to me may not mean much (in terms of bankroll), but to someone else in the tourney, it may be a lot.

Also, when I hop in a $200 or $300 SnG, it's significant to me, but MJ or some other high roller may be on there that doesn't care much about $200.

Hence, I never vary my strategy between different levels of buy in's for SnGs. For example, why is a QQ better to me at a $5 vs a $200 table? Now multi-tables with cheap rebuys are a different story.

Comments?

[Cohete009]

I just notice that people play more serious the higher the limits, including house and live tourneys. If money doesn't matter to them, so be it, but the lower limit games, of course people are going to take more chances. I would. If you double or triple up on a hand, you are set the rest of the tourney. You could fold almost into the money then. It all depends on the player and his bankroll. But still, the 3rd best starting hand in poker, all in every time.

[MNBridge]

Hence, I never vary my strategy between different levels of buy in's for SnGs. For example, why is a QQ better to me at a $5 vs a $200 table? Now multi-tables with cheap rebuys are a different story.

Comments?

I vary my strategy BIG TIME from a small tourney to a larger one.

If you watch / play in a $200 sit and go there are almost always 7 or 8 people left at level 4 or 5.
In lower tournments often level 4 or 5 are in the money. I played a $50 SNG the other day where I personally knocked out 5 people in the first 2 rounds and only 4 remained after 20 hands.

Also small tourneys,
I don't bluff (or very seldom)
I don't make 'cute' plays, I check draws to the nuts 'knowing' if it hits they will still pay me.

You can definetely 'cute' yourself out of a low limit tourney. Usually you will be shaking your head on how that moron could call when you bluffed cause you perfectly 'represented' top pair and you knew he hand at best bottom pair. Yet out you go.

Slansky (Tournament Poker) has a 'system' for playing a certain way (without even having to know how to play. That system assumes if you go all in the only hands that call are AA, KK, or AKs.
His 'system' would get destroyed in a low limit tourney because there is no buying pots.
Yet this same 'system' is tough for pros to play against.

[O. Hannah]

QQ all-in with those guys. You did the right thing. I can think of a whole bunch of hands that Player B would call all-in with and only KK and AA have you as a big dog.

[Expunge]

give me the option to get all my money in with QQ preflop in a SnG i can't see passing this opportunity up unless there are 4 left, i'm the second stack, and chip leader has gone all in, and both stacks 3 and 4 are within 2 rounds of being blinded out.

In the SnG's you just don't get enough hands to wait forever.

[foghorn]

give me the option to get all my money in with QQ preflop in a SnG i can't see passing this opportunity up unless there are 4 left, i'm the second stack, and chip leader has gone all in, and both stacks 3 and 4 are within 2 rounds of being blinded out.

In the SnG's you just don't get enough hands to wait forever.

I agree if there is only one person all-in, or if I'm the first, but if two are all-in, in almost every case one of them has AA or KK or AK, and I don't want my stack against those odds early. I did think this current situation was a bit different given the circumstances so I called. I was wrong, it was no different.

[Hummer]

I call in a heartbeat for the same reasons mentioned above:

1. A & B are likely playing weaker hands because of their egos
2. They are likely sharing over cards
3. $5 SNG players are awful at ranking a preflop hand

[Bama Gambler]

2. They are likely sharing over cardsThis makes AK almost worthless when two people are all-in before you. Very likely you are facing a pocket pair and Ax. So you are most likely dead to three outs.

[Expunge]

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=265161
pokenum -h ah kd - ad qc - js jc
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Ah 448950 32.75 902682 65.85 19122 1.39 0.334
Qc Ad 274676 20.04 1076956 78.57 19122 1.39 0.207
Js Jc 628006 45.81 738247 53.86 4501 0.33 0.459

[Hummer]

2. They are likely sharing over cardsThis makes AK almost worthless when two people are all-in before you. Very likely you are facing a pocket pair and Ax. So you are most likely dead to three outs.

Just to clarify: are you still referring to having QQ vs two prior all-ins?

[Bama Gambler]

2. They are likely sharing over cardsThis makes AK almost worthless when two people are all-in before you. Very likely you are facing a pocket pair and Ax. So you are most likely dead to three outs.

Just to clarify: are you still referring to having QQ vs two prior all-ins?No, I'm saying if two people are all-in before AK goes way down in value.

[douglan]

Two people all-in before you and you have AK. Easy fold. AK against 2 or more players is weak. You need the big guns to play those hands (AA or KK).