Poker: I HATE MULTIS / I HATE ASOP's

[MNBridge]

So I had a big weekend up $1000 + at Sit and Gos and I get into a multi $100

Build it up to $4000 at the break.

Get to round 7 I'm still at 4000

Then a guy gets AA twice in three hands to knock me out. And he limped in both times!

I had A8 in the blind, flop 8xx turn A. Lose 3000 chips

Two hands later
JJ on button.
3 limpers -- all in.

Same F'in guy has AA Again. Gone!

Congrats MN you took 80th and get NOTHING!

[Expunge]

it could be worse, you could be a huge favorite in a hand and because your opponent maes a bad call and is lucky you go bye bye.

[Hummer]

it could be worse, you could be a huge favorite in a hand and because your opponent maes a bad call and is lucky you go bye bye.

I always find that harder to accept. When I make a bad call or play, I can usually accept it (eventually). :duh:

[vegas]

I lost two tournaments this weekend when I had AA.

First time I went all-in preflop since there was a large raise and a call of that raise before I got to act. Got beat by a flush.

Second time I see the flop and it comes 10 8 x. So, I move all-in to end it right there. Guy call and pulls a straight to the J. Argghhhh.

[FSAme]

it could be worse, you could be a huge favorite in a hand and because your opponent maes a bad call and is lucky you go bye bye.

I always find that harder to accept. When I make a bad call or play, I can usually accept it (eventually). :duh:


I'm the exact opposite. I kick myself over and over, reliving the hand in my head for days, when I make a stupid play that knocks me out of the tourney....

But, I really don't mind when someone gets lucky on a stupid play. I guess it's because I know that if I keep making (or at least trying to make) the correct plays over time, the odds are in my favor, and in the long run I'll take more of those pots down and if that lucky guy continues to gamble - it'll catch up to him at somepoint.

Luck is a part of the game you can't avoid, but bad decisions are. Not saying I know how, but I believe it can be done.

[MNBridge]

it could be worse, you could be a huge favorite in a hand and because your opponent maes a bad call and is lucky you go bye bye.

I always find that harder to accept. When I make a bad call or play, I can usually accept it (eventually). :duh:


I'm the exact opposite. I kick myself over and over, reliving the hand in my head for days, when I make a stupid play that knocks me out of the tourney....

But, I really don't mind when someone gets lucky on a stupid play. I guess it's because I know that if I keep making (or at least trying to make) the correct plays over time, the odds are in my favor, and in the long run I'll take more of those pots down and if that lucky guy continues to gamble - it'll catch up to him at somepoint.

Luck is a part of the game you can't avoid, but bad decisions are. Not saying I know how, but I believe it can be done.

That's one of the things still bugging me. I'm not sure if I played the first one right.
A8 BB 4 limpers

Flop 8xx - Bet pot (500), all fold, last to act raises same amount as bet. (So I've got 1500 of my 4000 in there now and he has 1500 left -- and pot is now at 3350)
If he had raised all in I'm pretty sure I fold here (assuming no brain fart which is possible) but his raise of 500 just didn't convince me.

Should it have?


Should I have folded here? Now the kiss of death.

Turn Ace -- I'm all in, he calls
No question it's over here. No way I'm folding now.

And for the JJ hand no doubts just hurt. BTW flop was TTX and turn another T.
Though I had it won for sure until the idiot with AA bet 1/4 of the pot on the river.

I lost to an IDIOT! That's what really hurts. I've gotten a new sick satisfaction out of watching horrible players crash and burn.

[Bama Gambler]

Multi-table = high expected value, and even higher variance

It may take a year to realize your expected value.

[O. Hannah]

MN Poker, I have seen pro's in tournaments limp in with AA etc. on occasion to throw people off and then rip them a new one.

Frankly, limping in with a strong hand can be an extremely powerful tactic as you can nail aggressive players that go all-in trying to steal pots pre-flop as well as even nailing people post-flop when they run for the border with top pair.

I've read here that you are an agressive player, is there any chance that these playing styles are finding your achilles? :-?

[MNBridge]

MN Poker, I have seen pro's in tournaments limp in with AA etc. on occasion to throw people off and then rip them a new one.

Frankly, limping in with a strong hand can be an extremely powerful tactic as you can nail aggressive players that go all-in trying to steal pots pre-flop as well as even nailing people post-flop when they run for the border with top pair.

I've read here that you are an agressive player, is there any chance that these playing styles are finding your achilles? :-?

Very possible that my style of play is an achilles heel in Multis. And I would agree I'm agressive. One of the things that I seem to do well at in Single is take a big hit and regroup and come back.

In the singles I usually wait for a good chance at a double up and grab it. Once that works I pluck off small stacks inch by inch or all at once. Sometime I have to catch up but that's OK cause if I hit they are gone and if not well I can rebuild.
This makes people afraid to play me (I think) when it gets to 5 people cause they know I want to knock them out and all their chips will be at stake if I hit OR they show weakness.

But in Multi's I can't use this style cause I'm rarely the chip leader and always seem to get knocked out by AA or KK. Plus one blow will do the trick where in singles I can usually survive this.

I don't know? Does this seem like a license to fail in Multis?

Another problem I seem to have in multi's is once I get to 1.5 to 2x the average stack I seem to tighten up, and then the blinds catch up very quickly and I feel the need to attack again.

[Bama Gambler]

MNPoker,

Try playing VERY tight in the middle stages unless you have a MONSTER stack. Once you make the money you can start playing a little more aggressive and shot for the BIG money.

[MNBridge]

I'll NEVER be convinced that limping with AA midway through a multi table tournament with the intention of going all in is right. Especially when you are going to go all in no matter what flops.

There are exceptions to this and I noticed one below. (I'm sure I can think of others)

If you are short stacked.
If the only other player left to act is short stacked.
If the table is short handed (usually at the end)

If you are a pro and really know what you are doing.

[USCanuck]

MN Poker, I have seen pro's in tournaments limp in with AA etc. on occasion to throw people off and then rip them a new one.

Frankly, limping in with a strong hand can be an extremely powerful tactic as you can nail aggressive players that go all-in trying to steal pots pre-flop as well as even nailing people post-flop when they run for the border with top pair.

I've read here that you are an agressive player, is there any chance that these playing styles are finding your achilles? :-?

I limped with AA over the weekend. I was short stacked and wanted some bets, so thought I would risk slow playing slightly. Flopped the other two AA. Actually got some bets and felt that I got more by limping than if I had gone in big.

[Hummer]

I limped with AA over the weekend. I was short stacked and wanted some bets, so thought I would risk slow playing slightly. Flopped the other two AA. Actually got some bets and felt that I got more by limping than if I had gone in big.

But how often does that happen, let alone flopping even one Ace. Try limping in a few more times and report your results. IMO, nothing good happens from limping in with AA on a full table.

I rejoiced yesterday watching someone slowplay their pocket kings (full house on the turn) into a straight flush made on the river. I loved every minute of it, including the complaining by the full house.

[Matty]

I like the limp-reraise with AA, especially in early position. I don't have any experience in $215 multis, but your average schmoe in a $5 SnG will be much too stubborn to lay down JJ, QQ, KK, AK or AQ to a reraise. Easy double up...most of the time...

[Bama Gambler]

I'll only limp with AA when the blinds are EXTREMELY high and the table loves to raise after someone limps. Otherwise I'm at least raising 2x. I don't want the BB seeing the flop with 72 for free and taking all my chips.

[Hummer]

I like the limp-reraise with AA, especially in early position. I don't have any experience in $215 multis, but your average schmoe in a $5 SnG will be much too stubborn to lay down JJ, QQ, KK, AK or AQ to a reraise. Easy double up...most of the time...

Sure. This is a good way to get extra money into the pot, but you have to be sure someone is going to give you the option of reraising. In cheap tournaments, this does work well from early position. Nice point Matty.

[O. Hannah]

I like the limp-reraise with AA, especially in early position. I don't have any experience in $215 multis, but your average schmoe in a $5 SnG will be much too stubborn to lay down JJ, QQ, KK, AK or AQ to a reraise. Easy double up...most of the time...

Sure. This is a good way to get extra money into the pot, but you have to be sure someone is going to give you the option of reraising. In cheap tournaments, this does work well from early position. Nice point Matty.

Actually, this is mostly what I meant by limping in. It also serves the purpose of making people a little more tenative about trying to push you around. You really don't want to be limping into a multi-way flop for cheap...as it's a good way to get hurt by someone hitting 2pr etc. It CAN be risky but you have to weigh that.

[MNBridge]

Boyle Brunson from "Super System"

AA and KK are hands that don't tend to make a lot of money after the flop but CAN lose a alot of money.

My own analysis:

If you are playing AA you KNOW you are the favorite preflop you can never know that afterwards. (with the exception of the AA flop above)

Why would you want to START betting after you may be down to 2 outs?

[vegas]

I'll only limp with AA when the blinds are EXTREMELY high and the table loves to raise after someone limps. Otherwise I'm at least raising 2x. I don't want the BB seeing the flop with 72 for free and taking all my chips.

What if someone raises before you act? Do you re-raise or just call and see the flop?

I see advantages to both.

[Bama Gambler]

What if someone raises before you act? Do you re-raise or just call and see the flop?Usually re-raise (especially if the blinds are high).

[O. Hannah]

Boyle Brunson from "Super System"

AA and KK are hands that don't tend to make a lot of money after the flop but CAN lose a alot of money.

My own analysis:

If you are playing AA you KNOW you are the favorite preflop you can never know that afterwards. (with the exception of the AA flop above)

Why would you want to START betting after you may be down to 2 outs?

No one is saying that it is a good idea to limp in all the time. But ONCE IN A WHILE....it can be LETHAL. Position, table aggression, blind amounts, stack sizes....there ARE times when it is appropriate.

Yeah, if blinds are huge and I have two limpers before me....I'm INSANE not to all-in with my AA. IF blinds are small and I have two limpers already and I have you sitting in the BB behind me....maybe I take the chance that you are looking for a steal or say...catch AK or something else I can dominate.

Brunsons comments mainly pertain to people that REFUSE to give up on AA or KK post flop and then get ripped by someone with trips, flush etc.

[O. Hannah]

What if someone raises before you act? Do you re-raise or just call and see the flop?Usually re-raise (especially if the blinds are high).

I would almost always re-raise...all-in quite often.

[MNBridge]

Boyle Brunson from "Super System"

AA and KK are hands that don't tend to make a lot of money after the flop but CAN lose a alot of money.

My own analysis:

If you are playing AA you KNOW you are the favorite preflop you can never know that afterwards. (with the exception of the AA flop above)

Why would you want to START betting after you may be down to 2 outs?

No one is saying that it is a good idea to limp in all the time. But ONCE IN A WHILE....it can be LETHAL. Position, table aggression, blind amounts, stack sizes....there ARE times when it is appropriate.

Yeah, if blinds are huge and I have two limpers before me....I'm INSANE not to all-in with my AA. IF blinds are small and I have two limpers already and I have you sitting in the BB behind me....maybe I take the chance that you are looking for a steal or say...catch AK or something else I can dominate.

Brunsons comments mainly pertain to people that REFUSE to give up on AA or KK post flop and then get ripped by someone with trips, flush etc.

Think we will have to agree to disagree here.

Where it helps:
Someone with AQ (catches a Q)
Someone with pocket pair (flop is rags below the pair they hold)

Where it kills:
Someone with QJs (catches 9Ts and is actually a favorite)
Someone with 33 (catches a 3)
Someone with 78s (catches 78 ')

Now the BIG problem I see here is in most (not all) of the good for you situations they call EVEN if you raise all in preflop.

[MNBridge]

How do yuo know when to give up on AA?

Board:
T98, player bets 1/2 pot are you gone?
44Q, player bets 1/2 pot
KQx
KsTsX
8s6s2s

[Matty]

OK guys, I'm man enough to admit when I get it wrong...
$3 multi, 47 entrants, down to the final 4...and then this happens:

###############################################
Stage #14554530: Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $750 [2004-04-12 18:34:49]
Seat 2 - PACMAN21 $23436.16 in chips
Seat 3 - REXRODE $29185.12 in chips
Seat 5 - POCKETACES99 $7869.36 in chips
Seat 9 - RADGE $10009.36 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 9] ***
PACMAN21 - Post small blind $750
REXRODE - Post big blind $1500
POCKETACES99 - Pocket [Ah,Ac]
POCKETACES99 - Calls $1500
RADGE - Folds
PACMAN21 - Calls $750
REXRODE - Checks
*** FLOP [3c,7h,7c] ***
PACMAN21 - Checks
REXRODE - Checks
POCKETACES99 - Bets $6369
PACMAN21 - Folds
REXRODE - Calls $6369
*** TURN [3c,7h,7c,2d] ***
REXRODE - Checks
POCKETACES99 - All-In(Raise) $1500 to $0.36
REXRODE - Calls $0.36
*** RIVER [3c,7h,7c,2d,Qd] ***
REXRODE - Calls
POCKETACES99 - Calls
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($17238.72:$17238.72,$0)
Board [3c,7h,7c,2d,Qd]
PACMAN21 - Folded on the FLOP
REXRODE - Total ($17238.72) HI:($17238.72)Four of a kind, sevens [7d,7s - P:7s,B:7h,P:7d,B:7c,B:Qd]
POCKETACES99 - HI:Two pair, aces and sevens [Ah,Ac - P:Ah,P:Ac,B:7h,B:7c,B:Qd]
RADGE - Folded on the POCKET CARDS

If I'm all in preflop, does he call me with 77? Probably, so I guess I was doomed either way...it's just funny because we were discussing exactly this situation this morning!

[Expunge]

Multi-table = high expected value, and even higher variance

It may take a year to realize your expected value.

I suspect it may take much closer to a lifetime to realize youre expected value. (maybe multiple lifetimes)

[Expunge]

Let me recaps last nights play. I was lucky to get some good cards fairly early on and build my stack through solid play. In the early middle of the tournament I kept stealing some blinds and taking the pots in the few real hands that I got. In the late middle half of the field is desperate moving all-in or folding. I play my coin flips and double a couple of the desperate. In the late part of the tournament I still have 15x, but now the chip leaders are no longer interested in playing poker, they would rather bully and make every pot worth all of my chips. Now I’m desperate and it’s the final table, I need to move in once a round to maintain my position. I pick my hands and pick up just the blinds, until someone finally calls me; I’m out on a coin flip.

It just seems like our tournaments are half poker, and half who can win the coin flips.

[lawfi5h]

It just seems like our tournaments are half poker, and half who can win the coin flips.

No sp0nge....its more like 2% poker (the first 10 minutes), 95% who can suck out the largest, 3% coin flips.

I'm looking at the ASOP winners for the last 6 weeks.....all had a MAJOR suckout to save their skin....that happens in all multis...but shouldn't be that way all the time for small multis..especially with those less then 30 people.

We need to get stars to let us start with 2,500 or else this will turn into a crap shoot....and fast.

[Bama Gambler]

In the late part of the tournament I still have 15x, but now the chip leaders are no longer interested in playing poker, they would rather bully and make every pot worth all of my chips.

It just seems like our tournaments are half poker, and half who can win the coin flips. :cry:

[Spidurman]

That's why I took a month off of ASOPs law. I went in there last week with a couple ideas, some worked, some really didn't (raising rainbow brite = bad).

I went in there this week with a much clearer gameplan, which I executed very well until the final table, when I had a lil case of brainlock.

I would say that I had good cards, but not great - you just need to play the ASOPs totally different than a normal multi.

I'm looking at my hand hists from the 2+0 I cashed Sunday and last night's ASOP, and I wouldn't believe it was the same person on the two histories.....but its what worked in each case.

[lawfi5h]

That's why I took a month off of ASOPs law. I went in there last week with a couple ideas, some worked, some really didn't (raising rainbow brite = bad).

I went in there this week with a much clearer gameplan, which I executed very well until the final table, when I had a lil case of brainlock.

I would say that I had good cards, but not great - you just need to play the ASOPs totally different than a normal multi.

I'm looking at my hand hists from the 2+0 I cashed Sunday and last night's ASOP, and I wouldn't believe it was the same person on the two histories.....but its what worked in each case.

I think I'm gonna forget trying to see flops and move all in on good hands preflop. What's the difference?

[Bama Gambler]

POKER IS GAMBLING!

If you play enough poker you are going to take a lot of bad beats. You are going to lose A LOT of coin flips. The sooner you realize that, the easier it is to take the pain. If you can’t handle it, well, you are playing the wrong game.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=84343
pokenum -h ad ac - 7h 2s
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ad 1493820 87.24 212248 12.40 6236 0.36 0.874
2s 7h 212248 12.40 1493820 87.24 6236 0.36 0.126

If I told you an outcome happens 12.4% of the time and then it happened, would you be really surprised? If I told you an outcome happens 12.4% of the time, and then I performed that experiment 10 times and that outcome happened once or twice, would you be surprised?

POKER IS GAMBLING!

[lawfi5h]

So I should play 27?

My point is the ASOP hits the 12.6% way more often then the 87.4%.



Try to finish in the bottom half of the asop for the entire season because of suckouts and bad beats and see how you feel.

Don't remind me that it is gambling. Gambling implies a probability of winning.

[Spidurman]

Until the final table (brainlock kicked in right around that time) - I probably saw more flops with a decision to make than anyone else at the table we played at.

This is exactly what Bama and I were talking about - I'm very comfortable trying to outplay people post-flop, and will give myself opportunities to do so with a large variety of hands. It works and its fun.

I am not terribly fond of getting all my chips in with five cards to come, even with aces.

I'd love the ASOPs if they developed into a tournament like this, but I doubt that will happen with this bunch.

[Bama Gambler]

My post wasn't directed towards anyone in general. Just something I wanted to put out there b/c there has been a lot of whining lately. The fact of the matter is bad beats, suck outs, and lost coin flips are going to happen. It sucks when it happens to you, but you have to move on. If you let it bother you then it will affect your game. I know b/c it happened to me. I lost my aggressive style, b/c I took a couple of bad beats and couldn't win a coin flip to save me life. If you let it get to you, then you stop pushing your edges and things being to spiral even more. All you can do is get your money in with the best of it.

Regarding the ASOPs the sample size is still too small to draw any real conclusions, IMO. I know I once went about 20 multi-table tournaments without cashing.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my previous post. Honestly I was trying to help (if you can believe that).

[lawfi5h]

i'm just frustrated bama...ignore my ranting.

[hardinda]

i'm just frustrated bama...ignore my ranting.

Maybe you should just check out your bankroll.... does that end your frustrations? Yeah, I think so!

[Chubbs_23]

Gambling alright.

In a $5 SNG on Stars yesterday, about 3 hands in, (everyone with around 1500 still), I get KK in the big blind. Action goes: Call, call, call, string raise, call, string raise, call, call. I go all in. I get 3 CALLERS. The first caller turns over AKo, the second caller turns over JJ, and the third caller turns over 88!

4 of us are all in with a pot of around 6200+.

Cards come out 10, 2, 5, 3, 4. Straight for the first caller.

Chant to yourself: "in the long run, in the long run, in the long run, serenity now"

[Bama Gambler]

So I should play 27?From the BB when no one raised, yes.

My point is the ASOP hits the 12.6% way more often then the 87.4%.I doubt that, in fact I'd be willing to bet against it. Freeman swore up and down that more Aces came out on the flop in internet card-play (this was following a night when 3 times he had KK only to see an ugly Ace flop). Of course, poker tracker told a different story. It's natural to remember the bad beats and to forget all the time the 87.4% stood up.

[Expunge]

Do you think that a larger starting stack would give us the opportunity to play more poker and less coinflips? Or will we as a group tighten up more and leave the 50/50 ratio the same and just lengthen the tournament. Is this problem inherent in no limit?

Bama for your crying post, get back to studying, for your other post ahh…

I guess what I’m trying to say is that to me poker is much more fun when you get to make decisions on and after the flop. To me our tournaments turn into preflop decisions only. Then turn the cards over and gamble.

[Cohete009]

So I should play 27?


Maybe if its "sooted" :D



Try to finish in the bottom half of the asop for the entire season because of suckouts and bad beats and see how you feel.


So are you trying to say that the karma just isn't with the fish, or do you have a problem with stars itself, or just the players playing hands against you?


Don't remind me that it is gambling. Gambling implies a probability of winning.

All you can do is get your chips in there with the best hand, and hope for the best.

[Bama Gambler]

Bama for your crying post, get back to studyingThanks for the reminder! :D

[Expunge]

Until the final table (brainlock kicked in right around that time) - I probably saw more flops with a decision to make than anyone else at the table we played at.

This is exactly what Bama and I were talking about - I'm very comfortable trying to outplay people post-flop, and will give myself opportunities to do so with a large variety of hands. It works and its fun.

I am not terribly fond of getting all my chips in with five cards to come, even with aces.

I'd love the ASOPs if they developed into a tournament like this, but I doubt that will happen with this bunch.

How do you give yourself opportunities to do so? I make a small preflop raise and am face with calling my opponents allin or folding.

[Cohete009]

I guess what I’m trying to say is that to me poker is much more fun when you get to make decisions on and after the flop. To me our tournaments turn into preflop decisions only. Then turn the cards over and gamble.

So would you like to see 30 minute blind levels? Would this solve some of the problem? Personally, in a live tourney, it is much much harder than in an online tourney, just because you see a lot more hands online then in a live tourney. You have to wait for the shuffle, deal, it adds up.

Just learn to be more patient, and you will be just fine in the ASOP's. Cohete has figured that part out.

[MNBridge]

Just to point out something I find quite ironic.

The ASOP players play very very close to the Slansky suggestion for NL tournaments.

i.e. Do not play when the blinds are small
Go all in or fold preflop when the blinds get big.

People are indeed finding this is a very very tough system to beat. Even though it would get killed in live games where players are deep in the money.

The problem with the internet tournaments (and most live ones as well) is that most players are not deep in the money long enough to really 'play' poker. And as a result the person who 'sucks out' wins. (Although I do agree with Bama that most of the suck outs referred to in the RF are not really suckouts.)

It is for these reasons that I am moving to ring games.

[Expunge]

My post wasn't directed towards anyone in general. Just something I wanted to put out there b/c there has been a lot of whining lately. The fact of the matter is bad beats, suck outs, and lost coin flips are going to happen. It sucks when it happens to you, but you have to move on. If you let it bother you then it will affect your game. I know b/c it happened to me. I lost my aggressive style, b/c I took a couple of bad beats and couldn't win a coin flip to save me life. If you let it get to you, then you stop pushing your edges and things being to spiral even more. All you can do is get your money in with the best of it.

Regarding the ASOPs the sample size is still too small to draw any real conclusions, IMO. I know I once went about 20 multi-table tournaments without cashing.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my previous post. Honestly I was trying to help (if you can believe that).

Sorry if my first post today sounded like whining about losing coin flips, it wasn’t meant to. It was meant to sound like whining about not getting to make a decision on or after the flop for the second half of the tournament.

I think I’m getting better at taking the suckouts and coin flips. I think in the long run those balance out. I’m just not thrilled that I’m forced to take coin flip situations.

Oh I agree the sample size is too small in the ASOP.

I was pretty confident you were trying to help. I think spidur helped define the situation better. Now I just need to figure out how to get to see flops in the second half of the tournament.

[MNBridge]

Seperate post for a separate thought.

To me it seems tournaments should be run in the following manner (not sure what X would be)

Players start with X times the BB.

At all times during the tournament the average player will have X times the BB.

The only time I feel like we are REALLY playing poker during the ASOP's is when the blinds are 25 / 50. (Assuming no one is knocked out)

This puts the average stack at 30x the BB. Seems like this number is about right for a QUICK tourney.

[lawfi5h]

(Although I do agree with Bama that most of the suck outs referred to in the RF are not really suckouts.)



77 beating 88
kk beating AA

are suckouts (off the top of my head)

If I had stars here, i'd find more.

[lawfi5h]

This thread should really be renamed "I HATE ASOPS"

[MNBridge]

This thread should really be renamed "I HATE ASOPS"

Done (with second billing) :D


Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=513531
pokenum -h as td - 8h 8c - 7d 7s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Td 520751 37.99 846910 61.78 3093 0.23 0.381
8c 8h 619101 45.16 748560 54.61 3093 0.23 0.452
7s 7d 227809 16.62 1139852 83.16 3093 0.23 0.167



So if you rolled a die and it was a 6 that's a surprise? And even the 8's are less than even money to win. They can't really complain about losing when it's going to happen MOST of the time can they?

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=513542
pokenum -h as ac - kh kc - qd qs
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 909850 66.38 455456 33.23 5448 0.40 0.665
Kc Kh 242152 17.67 1123154 81.94 5448 0.40 0.178
Qs Qd 213304 15.56 1152002 84.04 5448 0.40 0.157

Here in fact the aces LOSE 1 out of 3 times!! So rolling a die and getting a 1 or a 2 is a surprise?

Remember I started the I HATE MULTI's thread, but this is WHY I hate them. Because what is refered to as a suckout really isn't, that's just how hold 'em is. You don't get HUGE advantages (especially when all the $'s go in preflop)

I hope I'm not repeating myself but I'm sure I am.
In a tournament where yuo play for a longer period at the lower blinds the good players can amass a better chunk of chips.
Then if they lose with AA to KK they can still rebuild. In ASOP's it is not possible to get that spread early (or very difficult) due to how players play. (Slansky style).

[lawfi5h]

In a tournament where yuo play for a longer period at the lower blinds the good players can amass a better chunk of chips.
Then if they lose with AA to KK they can still rebuild. In ASOP's it is not possible to get that spread early (or very difficult) due to how players play. (Slansky style).

This is what I am saying...thanks :D

I am just more long winded and beating around the bush.

I'm done whining for the day.

[Expunge]

I guess what I’m trying to say is that to me poker is much more fun when you get to make decisions on and after the flop. To me our tournaments turn into preflop decisions only. Then turn the cards over and gamble.

So would you like to see 30 minute blind levels? Would this solve some of the problem? Personally, in a live tourney, it is much much harder than in an online tourney, just because you see a lot more hands online then in a live tourney. You have to wait for the shuffle, deal, it adds up.

Just learn to be more patient, and you will be just fine in the ASOP's. Cohete has figured that part out.

I don't know. Would 30 minute levels really solve it? I guess we would have to try it to see. I know live tournaments are worse because you see fewer hands per hour, from there it depends on how quick the blinds increase.

I’m not sure how to take the second part of this. Are you saying?
1) You saw my play hands impatiently. If so please let me know which hand(s) you think so. I’d be thrilled to discuss the situation.
2) “You need to be patient in these tournaments, Cohete’s been patient and has won or finished high multiple times, you’ve just been unlucky. Here let me rub it in some more Cohete’s done well in the tournaments”
3) “You need to be patient in these tournaments, Cohete’s been patient and has won or finished high multiple times. Since you haven’t won yet you MUST be impatient and therefore you aren’t as good as Cohete.”
4) Something else.

[MNBridge]

I don't know. Would 30 minute levels really solve it?

No.

What would solve it is:
Having the blinds start higher (the 10 / 15 and 10 / 20 rounds are a joke). And not increase as quickly. i.e. go up a unit rather than doubling.

This will stop players from being able to sit out the early rounds without it costing them much in blinds.
And will also make the ALL IN pre-flop play less effective as players will be deeper in the money when the blinds don't go up as quickly.

(OK now I KNOW I am repeating myself)

[lawfi5h]

If you let it bother you then it will affect your game. I know b/c it happened to me. I lost my aggressive style, b/c I took a couple of bad beats and couldn't win a coin flip to save me life. If you let it get to you

Yeah, that sounds about right. Here is a hand from the NL tourny at the Orleans this weekend.

I am at Button-1. No limpers ahead of me. Blinds are 15/30, I have 1,300. I look down at AcKc. I look right at the blinds hoping that my raise to 90 will make them think I am stealing. Button calls, but the BB moves all in. I am sure he is defending his blinds, but with button caller, it makes me think he has a legit hand. He has 800, and me, not wanting to take a coinflip, mucks it.

Now THAT, my friends, is EXACTLY what Bama was just saying. The entire bus ride back to the strip I was doing this: :shake:

WTF is that?

[Expunge]

I don't know. Would 30 minute levels really solve it?

No.

What would solve it is:
Having the blinds start higher (the 10 / 15 and 10 / 20 rounds are a joke). And not increase as quickly. i.e. go up a unit rather than doubling.

This will stop players from being able to sit out the early rounds without it costing them much in blinds.
And will also make the ALL IN pre-flop play less effective as players will be deeper in the money when the blinds don't go up as quickly.

(OK now I KNOW I am repeating myself)

OK I would like to try to make a private tournament that is more postflop and less preflop.
I’m assuming we can alter the starting chips as well as the length of the blind levels. What combination would you suggest to do so?

[lawfi5h]

OK I would like to try to make a private tournament that is more postflop and less preflop.
I’m assuming we can alter the starting chips as well as the length of the blind levels. What combination would you suggest to do so?

I didnt think you can do that.

But if you can, I'd recommend 2,500 and/or 30 minute levels. The games are already 2.5 hrs, and I personally don't mind that length, but if we lengthen it, we have to consider moving the time up, which interferes with our west coast players. Either that or move to sunday night around 7:00 eastern next session.

[Cohete009]

I don't know. Would 30 minute levels really solve it? I guess we would have to try it to see. I know live tournaments are worse because you see fewer hands per hour, from there it depends on how quick the blinds increase.

I’m not sure how to take the second part of this. Are you saying?
1) You saw my play hands impatiently. If so please let me know which hand(s) you think so. I’d be thrilled to discuss the situation.
2) “You need to be patient in these tournaments, Cohete’s been patient and has won or finished high multiple times, you’ve just been unlucky. Here let me rub it in some more Cohete’s done well in the tournaments”
3) “You need to be patient in these tournaments, Cohete’s been patient and has won or finished high multiple times. Since you haven’t won yet you MUST be impatient and therefore you aren’t as good as Cohete.”
4) Something else.

Just from reading your previous hand histories, you played marginal hands too aggressively, costing you a lot of chips early. Patience not from just being in pots, but how you bet patience. So number 1 is Cohete's choice.

If you want to discuss last nite's hand history, would be willing to give you feedback.

[DblDownTrent]

I love the ASOPs. Maybe I'm in the wrong thread.

I've sucked in them for the most part, but love them because they are a challenge. Sure they are different than other multis, but I want to play in as many different situations as I can for experience, which I believe will improve my game.

I've tried a few different strategies in ASOPs, and not many have worked, but some have. I'm had my share of losing with the best hand in, and done my share of complaining about it, but overall enjoy them a lot.

It's a cheap way to play in a very competitive environment.


and oh yeah, Bring it B**ches! DDT will be back next week.

[Expunge]

If you want to discuss last nite's hand history, would be willing to give you feedback.

Absolutely! Do you have any hands in particular you want to discuss? Or do I need to request the HH and send a copy to you?

[Cohete009]

If you want to discuss last nite's hand history, would be willing to give you feedback.

Absolutely! Do you have any hands in particular you want to discuss? Or do I need to request the HH and send a copy to you?

Well, since didn't play in the ASOP at all last nite (Packers baby!!), and only watched a few hands from it, would review your whole HH if you got a copy of it.

[SCavenger]

Sorry about the beat Law but I wouldn't call it a suck-out. A suck-out is what KnightsPG(I think it was him) did to me in one of the ASOPs. All-in on the turn, only 1 card in the deck that can beat me and here it comes floating down the river.

I was lucky, no doubt about it, but I don't think there's anybody here who would've played my hand differently given the situation:

> I have less than 10X
> Spdr makes his routine raise from the button
> I'm in SB with 77

My play is to get his raise as well as the BB. If he calls, well, let's flip. I can't play much longer with my stack.

You went in after me with 88. If spdr calls, you are almost certainly less than a coin flip(50%).

I know I made a couple of really bad plays but this was not, in my opinion, one of them.

[lawfi5h]

I know I made a couple of really bad plays but this was not, in my opinion, one of them.


nope, it wasn't. I never said you played it poorly. But I put spidur on a hand to try to steal the blinds and thought he'd go away to our all ins. When the cards turned over, I knew I had the right read, and was happy to be close to 50% with a possible triple up.

[nittany07]

I actually think the ASOP's are way too slow. Maybe it's because I still feel a little uncomfortable playing postflop poker. Maybe it's because I'm used to sit-n-go's where you have 5 people left and the blinds are still only 50/100. I'm not sure. But that first half hour was death to me. I'm crying for the blinds to go up so it becomes meaningful. 3 hours seems like a long time for a 21 person online tourney. They are a blast and I think the competition is great but they just seem a bit long.

The problem I have with the small blinds is that the value of building up your stack (by let's say 300) is much lower than the utility of losing the same number of chips. That's why IMO the play is so tight early on. I always hope that I get my premium hands as opposed to later for that main reason. I do enjoy the small blinds in the $1-5.50 multis because you can so often bust someone by limping in with small pairs and suited connectors. In the ASOP's it doesn't work because players are smart enough to raise.

Comment for sponge-
I take it that you were frustrated somewhat with my reraises against you (or maybe I'm just reading to far into the message). To me, it looked like you were stealing quite often, especially from the button or one off). In the blinds, I think my only play is to reraise or fold. It makes no sense for me to call out of position and try to outplay you post-flop. Some of the times I had a decent hand, sometimes I didn't. I've always believed that NL poker is about putting someone to a decision and applying Sklansky's gap concept. It works in the ASOP's because people will fold AJ to a reraise where as you get called 95% in low-limit tourney's. I think it's all about adapting your game to your opponents. Ahh, I love this game.

BTW - Scavenger, great headsup match last night.

[MNBridge]

It works in the ASOP's because people will fold AJ to a reraise where as you get called 95% in low-limit tourney's.

I disagree. Once the blinds are up to 50 / 100 + I don't see players folding AJ in the ASOPs on a reraise.
[On a cold call yes, not on a reraise]
(I have a feeling the hands you are seeing people folding to your reraises are much weaker and probably shouldn't have even been bet)

ASOP's are IMO for the first 2 or 3 rounds Weak Tight. Then become Loose Agressive at 50 / 100.

FYI -- Here is my strategy next week.
#1) Sit out until blinds get to 25 / 50.
#2) Limp virtually every hand at 25 / 50. If someone comes over the top ALL IN or fold. (And don't be afraid to all in bluff it's only $11)
#3) At 50 / 100 and beyond SHOVE EM IN! or fold.
P.S. Position will be a huge decision factor in my ALL IN moves.

See you all then :D

[Bama Gambler]

FYI -- Here is my strategy next week.
#1) Sit out until blinds get to 25 / 50.
#2) Limp virtually every hand at 25 / 50. If someone comes over the top ALL IN or fold. (And don't be afraid to all in bluff it's only $11)
#3) At 50 / 100 and beyond SHOVE EM IN! or fold.
P.S. Position will be a huge decision factor in my ALL IN moves.Thanks for the heads-up! :D

[Expunge]

Comment for sponge-
I take it that you were frustrated somewhat with my reraises against you (or maybe I'm just reading to far into the message). To me, it looked like you were stealing quite often, especially from the button or one off). In the blinds, I think my only play is to reraise or fold. It makes no sense for me to call out of position and try to outplay you post-flop. Some of the times I had a decent hand, sometimes I didn't. I've always believed that NL poker is about putting someone to a decision and applying Sklansky's gap concept. It works in the ASOP's because people will fold AJ to a reraise where as you get called 95% in low-limit tourney's. I think it's all about adapting your game to your opponents. Ahh, I love this game.

BTW - Scavenger, great headsup match last night.

Oh I was stealing for quite a bit, (I sent the victim a PM after the tourney) and he realized it too. I don’t have a problem with the only options being reraise or fold. The problem is that the reraise at this stage automatically equals all-in for one of the two players involved.

I think that in addition to the depth of money issue it comes down to the problem that most of us are tight aggressive. Where calling is seldom the best choice.

It almost like we need to play the preflop as limit poker and the postflop as nl.

[Bama Gambler]

Sounds like you want to play pot-limit poker.

[Spidurman]

Nah this would be even more fun:

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/slotboom11.htm

[Expunge]

Sounds like you want to play pot-limit poker.

The thing i don't like about pot limit is that you can't correctly price the flop many times.

I think the issue is the depth of the money. say i'm in the co with 15x and the bb has 25x. If i come in for 2.5x the bb must raise to 8.5x in order to force me to face a pot sized raise, well at this point 8.5 leaves me pretty much pot committed, and it almost definately leave the BB pot committed to call anything if i bet at any future point in the pot. Therefore the move that seems strongest at this point is to move it all in. Even if we are at 25x and 40x this changes significantly.

[Spidurman]

Sponge: this is how I can accumulate chips at the early levels (or piss em all away).

Every ASOP I play, after 45 minutes (25/50) I am either out or top three. This is directly related to the amount of play I have in my chips.

Pot limit there are different factors than no limit. You can't price perfectly 100% of the time, but you can imply things very well over time if you play it right.

[MNBridge]

flop many times.

I think the issue is the depth of the money.

EXACTLY what I have been saying all day!

[Expunge]

[quote=Expunge]flop many times.

I think the issue is the depth of the money.

EXACTLY what I have been saying all day![/quote

Thats been figured out quite early. The question is how can we make the money deeper given that we can only
A increase starting chips
B increase level time
C possibly skip a level or two to start


also a question is that we usually don't start with full tables, plus stars only has 9 per table in the tournament setting.

[Expunge]

Nah this would be even more fun:

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/slotboom11.htm

Lets give it a try!

[MNBridge]

[quote=Expunge]flop many times.

I think the issue is the depth of the money.

EXACTLY what I have been saying all day![/quote

Thats been figured out quite early. The question is how can we make the money deeper given that we can only
A increase starting chips
B increase level time
C possibly skip a level or two to start


also a question is that we usually don't start with full tables, plus stars only has 9 per table in the tournament setting.

I say radically increase the level times and DECREASE the starting chips.

It's all relative and the first few rounds are the only times the blinds don't double.

So for example start everyone with 600 chips.
And have the blinds go up every half hour.

What is the blind sturcture?
i.e. Level 1 = 10 /20 ?
Level 2 = 15 /30 ?

whatever.

[Cohete009]

How do you like the 4 Queens structure.

1000 in chips.

30 min levels.

5/15
10/25
25/50
50/100
100/200
...
...
...

But in this case, start at 10/25?

[Spidurman]

I'm in favor of any structure that gives alot of play in my chips (stars its levels 1-3 unless I double)

[lawfi5h]

I wouldnt play if there were LESS chips.

I don't see how that introduces more skill into the game.

Why not start everyone with 50 chips and the blinds at 25/50? That sounds fun.

[MNBridge]

I wouldnt play if there were LESS chips.

I don't see how that introduces more skill into the game.

Why not start everyone with 50 chips and the blinds at 25/50? That sounds fun.

You completely missed the point. Seriously think about it.

The chips are relative. You could start with 150 chips and make the blinds 1/2.
This is EXACTLY the same as starting with 1500 chips and the blinds at 10/20.

We could keep the structure so we never move past 10/20. (i.e. Have 5 hour rounds). But then the game would never end.

The goal is to keep the time the same and reduce the slow time (ie. the first two rounds of everyone being very tight and the end the ALL IN bonanza)

Could someone please post what the blinds are at each level.

It will make this much much easier to explain.

[lawfi5h]

I wouldnt play if there were LESS chips.

I don't see how that introduces more skill into the game.

Why not start everyone with 50 chips and the blinds at 25/50? That sounds fun.

You completely missed the point. Seriously think about it.

The chips are relative. You could start with 150 chips and make the blinds 1/2.
This is EXACTLY the same as starting with 1500 chips and the blinds at 10/20.

We could keep the structure so we never move past 10/20. (i.e. Have 5 hour rounds). But then the game would never end.

The goal is to keep the time the same and reduce the slow time (ie. the first two rounds of everyone being very tight and the end the ALL IN bonanza)

Could someone please post what the blinds are at each level.

It will make this much much easier to explain.

No I get it. But all that would do is make the all in bonanza start right away.

I am thinking about it in terms of starting chips over BB (round 1), which right now is 75.

[abacustwo]

Current Blind Structure changing every 15 minutes:

10/20
15/30
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
100/200 +25
200/400 +25
300/600 +50
400/800 +50
600/1200 +75
1000/2000 +100

[pokerwidow34]

Not that I think that I will ever win an ASOP, but here's an example of why I throw a fit to Sotally every Monday night and swear I will never play in another ASOP:

Table '2661024 2' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: iamapoc (1595 in chips)
Seat 4: Minus790 (1795 in chips)
Seat 5: Mountainhawk (1705 in chips)
Seat 6: abacustwo (2285 in chips)
Seat 7: RainbowBrite (1325 in chips)
Seat 8: pokerwidow34 (720 in chips)
Seat 9: ConnVBPA43 (1075 in chips)
ConnVBPA43: posts small blind 15
iamapoc: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pokerwidow34 [Ah Ks]
Minus790: folds
Mountainhawk: folds
abacustwo: raises 60 to 90
RainbowBrite: folds
pokerwidow34: calls 90
ConnVBPA43: folds
iamapoc: folds
*** FLOP *** [2d Ac 5s]
abacustwo: checks
pokerwidow34: bets 630 and is all-in
abacustwo: calls 630
abacustwo said, "nh"
*** TURN *** [2d Ac 5s] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [2d Ac 5s Ts] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
abacustwo: shows [Ad Th] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
pokerwidow34: shows [Ah Ks] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
abacustwo collected 1485 from pot

[abacustwo]

Average Chip Stack = ACS
Most are complaing that ACS/BB is too big in the beginning and ACS/BB is too small near the end.

Proposed blind structure, assuming starting with 1500 in chips:

20/40
30/60
40/80
50/100
60/120
80/160
100/200
125/250
160/320
200/400

[MNBridge]

Here is my proposal:

Start with 900 chips. and 1/2 hour rounds. (And personally I would go to 750 chips but I don't think others will go for that)

Now at the time period from 45 to 60 minutes, then average starting chips / BB is 18 rather than 10.
This is currently the 50/100 level and where I think the ALL IN bonanza really begins.

Now to make it so the tournaey doesn't last 10 hours we need to have some rounds be slightly more.

The first round is 1/30 of your stack rather than 1/50. (As we currently have it you can pretty safetly sit out the first 15 minutes) This will encourage people to 'play' earlier but will still make the ALL IN move an inefficient one.

This also makes it so if 1/2 the players are gone then from 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours we are playing once around cost 1/24 of the average stack. Not to far away from the beginning figures of 1/30.

Time Blinds / Ante Cost ot go Around Once Starting stack / Cost to go around
15 10/20 30 50
30 20/30 50 30
45 25/50 75 20
60 50/100 150 10
75 75/150 225 7
90 100/200 300 5
105 100/200 25 525 3
120 200/400 25 825 2
135 300/600 50 1350 1
150 400/800 50 1650 1
165 600/1200 75 2475 1

15 10/20 30 30
30 10/20 30 30
45 20/30 50 18
60 20/30 50 18
75 25/50 75 12
90 25/50 75 12
105 50/100 150 6
120 50/100 150 6
135 75/150 225 4
150 75/150 225 4
165 100/200 300 3

[MNBridge]

Average Chip Stack = ACS
Most are complaing that ACS/BB is too big in the beginning and ACS/BB is too small near the end.

Proposed blind structure, assuming starting with 1500 in chips:

20/40
30/60
40/80
50/100
60/120
80/160
100/200
125/250
160/320
200/400

If we can change the blind structure I would be for this rather than mine. In 15 minute increments.

[MNBridge]

After exams would people be up for a grueling tournament? (ie. Long)

Say same structure as now except 1 hour rounds? (maybe 1000 chips instead of a 1500) -- Otherwise you are looking at 3 hours (current) = 12 hours.

[lawfi5h]

After exams would people be up for a grueling tournament? (ie. Long)

Say same structure as now except 1 hour rounds? (maybe 1000 chips instead of a 1500) -- Otherwise you are looking at 3 hours (current) = 12 hours.

I would be....can we mess around with the structure. I thought we didnt have that ability.

[MNBridge]

Based on what Sponge wrote it sounds like we can change:

#1) Starting chips
#2) Length of rounds

That's it.

[Expunge]

There is nothing that we personally can do to change the structure of a tournament. However given that we are closing in on 20 weeks of play I could kindly ask that they adjust the structure. I would think that they would be willing to edit the above two situations, having to edit much more would start to heads toward asking too much.

[SCavenger]

BTW - Scavenger, great headsup match last night.

Yes, it was quite a battle. Could've easily gone the other way (and almost did).

Kudos to you and RainbowBrite on your 2 for 2 cashes!

[P. Utonium]

One good thing about ASOPs is that we play fast. Typical online play seems to go about 1 hand a minute, but we get up to almost 1.5, at least for early round play. So we get alot of hands per blind level.

I always thought that the blinds, even at 10/20, were too high. I think that part of what makes the first round of blinds seem useless is the fact that everyone knows that, in an hour, your 10xBB pot will not seem that big - it'll just be enough to pay for one orbit. Pretty much nothing you can do is going to prevent your chip stack from declining relative to the big blind. You can't double up every 15 minutes. If you knew the blinds would not increase until X players were eliminated, the low level blinds would seem more important.

I think a good starting chips/BB level would allow you to call a hand down to the river with, say, half-pot sized bets, and not be significantly hurt if you lose. So, take 10/20:

Pre-flop: Raise to 60, one caller, blinds fold. Pot at 150.
Flop: Bet 75, call. Pot doubles to 300.
Turn: Bet 150, call. Pot doubles to 600.
River: Bet 300, call. Pot at 1200. Each player put in 585.

This is a pretty timit pot, really, but if you started with 1,500 chips you'd be out over a third of your chips. To me, this is too much. If you play this hand and lose you are hurt badly.

I'd like to try playing with blinds progressing so that the average stack stays at about 125xBB.

[MNBridge]

I'd like to try playing with blinds progressing so that the average stack stays at about 125xBB.

That tournament would take 24 hours plus.

[win diesel]

Make the starting chips 10,000 and have the blinds increase every 2 hours.

[lawfi5h]

Make the starting chips 10,000 and have the blinds increase every 2 hours.

THen it would last 7 days and be called the WSOP main event.

[Bama Gambler]

Anyone see Raymer on SportsCenter? I like his quote (pharaphrased), "Anyone needs lucks to win a tournament, some need less luck than others." I think this applies to the ASOP. Anyone in the field can win, but some need less luck than others to win.