1 table -- Sit and Go 4 left.

[MNBridge]

Situation:
Sit and Go, 4 players remain, blinds have gotten very high, and everyone has about the same number of chips.

Blinds I believe were 400/ 800 ($50 ante) and chip leader 4,000 and small stack had about 2,500.

You have KT first to act. (One time around the table take 1/3 to 1/2 your chips)

I have about 3,000 in chips.

Raise to 1,600 (BB raises to 3,000) What do you do?

A) Fold if you get nothing in the blinds you are pretty much done.
B) Call and you take the chance of 4th place

Also curious on how do you play 4 way in general (Try to get the chip lead and figure at 4 way everyone wants to get in the $'s so they may play tighter? Or play timid and hope someone gets knocked out?)

Well in this situation I called and the player turned up 88.
No help -- I'm out.
(I don't think I raise with 88 knowing that when the raiser entered the pot he was almost committed and 88 is surely a coin flip that will be called -- Giving me a 50% chance of being in the money.)

I've taken WAY to many 4ths but am curious if this is also the reason I've taken so many 1st's and is it worth it?

9 players (rough estimate):
1sts -- 18%
2nd -- 8%
3rd -- 11%
4th -- 15%

[douglan]

Situation:
Sit and Go, 4 players remain, blinds have gotten very high, and everyone has about the same number of chips.

Blinds I believe were 400/ 800 ($50 ante) and chip leader 4,000 and small stack had about 2,500.

You have KT first to act. (One time around the table take 1/3 to 1/2 your chips)

I have about 3,000 in chips.

Raise to 1,600 (BB raises to 3,000) What do you do?

A) Fold if you get nothing in the blinds you are pretty much done.
B) Call and you take the chance of 4th place

Also curious on how do you play 4 way in general (Try to get the chip lead and figure at 4 way everyone wants to get in the $'s so they may play tighter? Or play timid and hope someone gets knocked out?)

Well in this situation I called and the player turned up 88.
No help -- I'm out.
(I don't think I raise with 88 knowing that when the raiser entered the pot he was almost committed and 88 is surely a coin flip that will be called -- Giving me a 50% chance of being in the money.)

I've taken WAY to many 4ths but am curious if this is also the reason I've taken so many 1st's and is it worth it?

9 players (rough estimate):
1sts -- 18%
2nd -- 8%
3rd -- 11%
4th -- 15%

4-handed, I'd fold KT if I were first to act. But once you raised and were re-raised by 88, I'd probably fold. The best you are going to get in that situation is a coin flip.

[Expunge]

How about the hand i went out on last night.

4 left in a 2 table so cash already secured.

im the short stack and get Axs. UTG raises 2x. I push all in, SB goes all in over the top of me with 88, the BB and initial raiser fold.

I'm not sure i like the re-reraise by the sb. I thought i was totally doomed up against AA or KK, but 88, i was reasonably happy thats all he had. I didn't get any help so i was indeed doomed, but this move with 88 shocked me.

[MNBridge]

If you are folding KT where the blinds are this high what hands are you betting?
This I may buy into with more explanation.


And fold to his raise? I'm betting $1,400 to win $4800. Certainly worth a coin flip.
Are you saying the positive EV of the hand is that skewed by placing 1 out of the $'s?

(I agree I hated being in this situation and I still can't understand why the player with 88 made this move -- But it worked and people definetely overplay low pairs short handed. -- Great for entering a pot first, horrible once someone is pot committed : Unless you have bully $'s :) )

[Cohete009]

If you are folding KT where the blinds are this high what hands are you betting?
This I may buy into with more explanation.



IMO, I only like KTo if there is only 3 people left. Since you all had roughly similar stacks, if you are going to want to stay in with this hand at all, I would just call and hope nobody raises and see a free flop. If nothing hits you, get out and you still have time to make a move. I just don't like raising with this hand, unless you are sure the others are very tight players, and are playing for 3rd.

Once you were re-raised, it is very hard to lay this hand down, so that is why I don't like the raise in this situation.

[douglan]

If you are folding KT where the blinds are this high what hands are you betting?

4-handed, I'd raise with KT from the Button or the SB. But generally not from UTG in that situation. Even with blinds this high, I don't like raising 2X with KT from UTG. If you decide to raise, I'd raise all-in to scare away smaller pocket pairs and other marginal hands (e.g., A10). Even 4-handed, with blinds this high, I think you can do a couple of laps and wait for a better hand.

And fold to his raise? I'm betting $1,400 to win $4800. Certainly worth a coin flip. Are you saying the positive EV of the hand is that skewed by placing 1 out of the $'s?

Yes, I'd still fold, pot odds notwithstanding. And I would not be happy about it. But for a chance at $, I think that it is the right decision.

[DblDownTrent]

All depends what your goal is. Do you just want some money? If so, play tight and hope you get a monster or someone gets knocked out..

Or, do you want to win? If this is the case, with 4 or 5 (or 5-6 at 2 table) to go is movin' time. Use marginal hands, at the proper time, to steal pots. Most people are playing more timid so it can work. Or, you run up against a big one and go out on the bubble. Also depends on how you've played up to this point.

[MNBridge]

Thanks for the comments they all helped me to think this over. Would still like to hear more thoughts on 4 handed play (or bubble play)

Think I've found my answer and my play was wrong either way.

Should have either gone ALL IN or folded. Not sure which I like better and actually think both are proper a certain percentage of the time.

I think calling is OK but it's just not something I do. If I'm in the BB and someone starts calling to enter pots I almost always raise and take it down.
If they come over the top I know they had a HUGE hand and I can lay it down.

[MNBridge]

All depends what your goal is. Do you just want some money? If so, play tight and hope you get a monster or someone gets knocked out..

Or, do you want to win? If this is the case, with 4 or 5 (or 5-6 at 2 table) to go is movin' time. Use marginal hands, at the proper time, to steal pots. Most people are playing more timid so it can work. Or, you run up against a big one and go out on the bubble. Also depends on how you've played up to this point.

I think this is the tough one. Cause I do want to win, a win is worth a 2nd AND a 3rd.
But is this attitude hurting me at the wrong times?

I know if I can get a big chip lead I can usually win. Cause once we get to 3 people neither of the other 2 wants to attack me and ultimately they both slowly run out of chips until one is gone and the other has nothing left.

I don't allow the big stack to do that and ultimately take 3rd (or 4th) as a result. But I also get first more often if I can manage to cripple the big bully.

BTW ( I really don't care if I take 3rd or 2nd the difference isn't worth being timid for. Basically at 3 way playing for 150 1st: 50 second: 0 third) That chance at 150 is well worth giving up the 50.

No I need to decide:
When is it worth it to go for first? What hands should I have?

When do I just want to hide and get in the $'s?

Food for thought.

[Grits N Gravy]

I thought i was totally doomed up against AA or KK, but 88, i was reasonably happy thats all he had.

If your x is below 8, you're a 2-1 dog against 88 or KK (or A-y, y>x, for that matter). You're only really doomed against AA, unless I'm holding it, but that's one for the BB thread.

[Bama Gambler]

MNPoker,

I would have moved-in right off the bat so I could avoid this decision. Before you raised to 1600 you should have asked yourself this question: what if some re-raises? Then you would have realized: all-in or fold. Since the blinds are about to hit me and if I don't get a playable hand in the blinds and I won't be able to steal after the blinds since my stack will be too low (sorry about the run-on) I am all-in.

[Expunge]

OK you're in the huge antes and blinds stage. At this point before raising tow just 2x you need to ask yourself which of these players will I lay the hand down against. If you won't lay it down to anyone then its all in or fold.
imagine you only come for 2x and you pot commit yourself (you can't fold the hand regardless of what happens) You have just given your opponents a shot at all your chips for only 2x of their chips. Now that would be a huge mistake.
ok sliding slightly off the specifics. Your playing on the button and have 3k, sb has 1k and bb has 9k. Now you get a hand you don’t mind being all in with against the short stack (heck you're even with him if he doubles against you) on the other hand you don't want to be all in vs the chip leader. blinds are 100/200 what do you bet here? i say 600 is enough. if sb calls he can't possibly fold the rest of the way, but if the bb calls you can still get away from the hand rather easily.
ok playing the hand farther… sb just calls pot size is 1400 sb has 400 left you have 2400 left. Flop comes and totally misses you, you must think it’s a toss up either hand could be good. Do you force him all in or not? If so when on the flop, turn, or river?

[DblDownTrent]

Do you force him all in or not? If so when on the flop, turn, or river?

If you check and he bets are you going to call? If so, put him to the test now. If not, check it down and assess the situation at each betting spot depending on the cards and your read on the player.

[KnightsPG]

MNPoker,

Excellent post. I like talking strategy on this site.

I agree with the all in or fold strategy. However, I also agree that there isn't a proper method. It probably depends on the three other guys left. If they are very aggressive, then you should probably fold, because someone may get knocked out before the big blind gets to you at all. If it is a pretty tight group, then I would opt to go all in, because more than likely they will fold. What you do in general if you haven't been paying attention or you were going to give general advice?

I would opt for the more aggessive approach. I think in general people are tighter when it gets to four and will most likely fold against an all in bet. I also think that you set yourself up big for the first place finish and to buy more blinds. IMO, You will make more money going for 1st place rather than waiting for 2nd and 3rd.

[MNBridge]

Expunge reminded me why I didn't go all in.

SB had me covered + about 1500.
BB and I were within 200 of each other.

I didn't want to commit against a player who if I beat I didn't guarantee $'s.
But wanted to steal blinds and if I had to go heads up against the other lower player (I know if he goes all in I'm a dog but must call, that's the chance you take stealing blinds).

I still think my action was wrong. Just not sure if I should have gone all in or folded.

The other reason I HATE my bet is if I'm in the BB and someone does that to me it's any easy call with almost anything. If I hit the flop (s)he's gone, if not I may make a bluff at it or check fold. (I don't see more than one more bet coming out of this)

Leaning towards all in. (Which obviously has the same result)

[MNBridge]

ok sliding slightly off the specifics. Your playing on the button and have 3k, sb has 1k and bb has 9k. Now you get a hand you don’t mind being all in with against the short stack (heck you're even with him if he doubles against you) on the other hand you don't want to be all in vs the chip leader. blinds are 100/200 what do you bet here? i say 600 is enough. if sb calls he can't possibly fold the rest of the way, but if the bb calls you can still get away from the hand rather easily.
ok playing the hand farther… sb just calls pot size is 1400 sb has 400 left you have 2400 left. Flop comes and totally misses you, you must think it’s a toss up either hand could be good. Do you force him all in or not? If so when on the flop, turn, or river?

If SB has 400 left I'm putting him all in on the flop. And if he bets it first I'm calling no matter what.

This is an interesting topic though. If you are one of the little guys (say there are 2) how do you play?

If you are a big guy (Again say there are 2) How do you play?

What if you are the only little or big stack?

What if 3 of you are tied and one player has less than a BB left (Will you still play certain hands v other big stacks / Is this a good time to steal?)

[Expunge]

I didn't want to commit against a player who if I beat I didn't guarantee $'s.
But wanted to steal blinds and if I had to go heads up against the other lower player (I know if he goes all in I'm a dog but must call, that's the chance you take stealing blinds).


If i'm reading everything right this is exactly what you got yourself into, being commited against someone who if you won would not guarantee a cash.

Plans are only good if you can follow through on them.

[MNBridge]

I didn't want to commit against a player who if I beat I didn't guarantee $'s.
But wanted to steal blinds and if I had to go heads up against the other lower player (I know if he goes all in I'm a dog but must call, that's the chance you take stealing blinds).


If i'm reading everything right this is exactly what you got yourself into, being commited against someone who if you won would not guarantee a cash.

Plans are only good if you can follow through on them.

No, the player who easily had me covered was in the SB and folded.

The BB who was virtually even with me and had he lost couldn't have covered the SB called.