PDA

View Full Version : BtPotEC Ghost Forum: PM thread (was: Bafflingly long)


Super Silver Haze
05-30-2004, 09:10 PM
This thread is for posting copies of game-related PMs you've received.

Leela
05-31-2004, 07:27 PM
(deleted)

Leela
05-31-2004, 07:29 PM
(deleted)

Leela
05-31-2004, 10:35 PM
I'll post the pms I receive in this thread.

Here's the first one:

This is a PM that I sent to Asynchronous on May 26. It was in response to a PM of his of May 25th, which in turn was responding to a PM I sent him where I told him I thought he was innocent, expressed some wariness of Gandalf, and asked what he thought of the others.

I have already sent this to the slayer. I am forwarding this to you mainly because of what Asynchronous wrote to me. I am fairly convinced that Asynchronous is innocent, for his offer to be lynched on page 8 of the thread. While this went essentially unnoticed in the wake of Avi's nomination of Gandalf and my own offer of martyrdom, Asynch could not have known this at the time he made the posting. I think it would be insane for EC to have done such a thing. Asynch is not insane. As you can see, he also had quite a bit of insight to provide.

Thanks for the message. Yes - I was more than a little surprised that my offer was completely and utterly ignored (except by you, now). I guess they wanted a celebrity ghost instead! I now suspect that I will become a lynching target in about 5 rounds or so, when someone sees that I posted that and never followed up. So actually, I'm more afraid of lynching (or slaying) than EC assassination.
If I were you, I wouldn't worry about being a lynching target. Again, it seems that nobody noticed. However, I have mentioned it to the slayer as evidence that you are probably innocent and shouldn't be slain, and to CubedBee, but not to anyone else. Since the slayer is directing our lynchings, I do not see that you are at any risk.

I would worry more if there gets to be a lot of publicity about it and a widespread sentiment for your innocence develops, as this would make you a more attractive EC target. I think your best strategy now is to stay low-key, hope that you aren't the sleeper EC, and try and survive deep into the game. If the ghosts and slayer are aware of your innocence without EC catching on, this would be a very good thing for the students, as we would increase our odds of hitting EC each round. Of course, once the sleeper activates, all bets are off....
I agree with you about the Gandalf situation. He did announce before the roles were picked that he was going to play this one quietly, which is a point in his defense. But I agree that his behavior was strange, and he could be either EC or slayer. Perhaps we should PM this to EC_Slayer and suggest that they slay Gandalf. That was if he's the slayer, he can protect himself, and if not, we can resolve the EC issue without the risk of lynching the slayer. I have pointed out his odd behaviour to the slayer. I think it is early to lynch him but we should keep a wary eye. I'm totally stumped by the slayer's selection of Oblomov. Unless it was a "kill the silent" move. That strategy is less important in this game due to the recission of the quorum rule, but it will matter later on when we get to the endgame. With the slayer's selection of stu, it appears that the slayer was targeting quiet folks. However, it also appears that the slayer didn't have enough time to devote to the game. My flood of E-mails to him may well have helped create this perception. On the Sunny issue, I agree that would be extremely unlikely that she would forget to switch accounts for her Death to the Students post. I was willing to overlook that as a red herring. However, her subsequent defense is triggering red flags. I would be willing to support a lynching at some point on the basis that I consider her to have a more than 2/n chance of being EC at this point. I'm still undecided on Sunny. I will have to study her defense a bit more.I don't have a high enough profile to receive PMs from people. I consider that to be one of the better sources of information, as the messages would either a) not be couched in the same language as a public post; or b) would contain a specific message targeted at aspecific recipient, which would have a higher "information value". That was one of the reasons I was volunteering to be ghost coordinator - I felt that the group would lose less by lynching me that they would if 4σ, Gandalf, etc. were taken out of the "live players" pool, and thus could no longer carry on PM dialogs with other live students (including the 2 ECs). I agree that PMs are pretty good info. I confess I've had PMs going with about 8 different people so far -- you, Gandalf, Rocky, EK, Sunny, B^3, the slayer, and thing. However, you may find that it is better to remain low-profile than to call attention to yourself and become an EC target. B^3 did tell me that that was the reason he selected Gandalf and Cho Da last game. I think you began to fill their shoes when they were gone, and may have thus attracted a bit of B^3's attention, though he claims you were a random pick.

I really don't have any suspects at this time. The signal to noise ratio has been quite low - 21 pages for one lynching and one killing? I'll be going through things more carefully in a couple of rounds once things have had a chance to develop. In the meantime, in addition to Gandalf and Sunny, my watch list (not yet suspects) includes Mulan (why wouldn't she know the rules) and Cho Da (deviation from standard behavior). Yes, the S-N ratio is abysmal. I think if we kill off Karma Police it should improve. I hope Sunny quits sulking as she is also weakening the remaining signal. I don't find Mulan all that suspicious -- I believe her actual statement was that the stuff about ghosts and sleepers and slayers was new to her, which is true. They do change the strategy significantly. Cho Da is being awfully quiet for a man who suggested lynching the quiet folks last game. Haven't seen any strategy at all from him this game -- just a few votes. I think I shall send him a PM and see what he has to say for himself. I agree with you about CubedBee's presumed innocence at this point. It's not conclusive, but I think it's a good assumption for the moment.

Leela
05-31-2004, 10:54 PM
This was sent to me on Weds 5/25 from Sunny. I think it is evidence that CubedBee is not EC. I do not think he would go out of his way to get Sunny to trust me if he were EC -- I think he would try and remain Sunny's only confidant.

Maybe also less likely for Sunny to be EC, though less clear IMO.


The following I think you should know...



I'm hoping that you are not EC.

I have something to tell the students, so I'll tell you. I believe Karma Police is EC. I have been in chat for a while now. Normally people wouldn't really go in chat, even if they see that I'm there. EC1, however, went into chat and chatted with me, the transcript of which I posted. It seems to me he is familiar with chat and would just go in because he's done it before.

Karma is a close friend of mine irl, we're both in NYC and have studied together, however, he has been very insistent on lynching me, and has never denied that he isn't EC when I asked him.

so my first guess would be, lynch karma and see if he's EC.
I'm not sure about the going into chat thing since I'm hardly ever there, but I'll defer to you as the expert. I do agree that Karma has be very insistent on your guilt and lynching you. I think most of the more sophisticated players realize that you just made a silly mistake and don't seriously suspect you. In addition to Karma, Will and snafu seem to be both pushing pretty hard to get you lynched. At this point of the game, I find that behavior pretty suspicious.

Also, another thing to note. Usually when one logs out of chat (since I'm such a chat expert,) if he still is curious about what's going on there, he'd log back in a different ID just to lurk. After EC1 logged out, there are just a couple of players that would go in and check out what was going on, and they were BC, Snafu, 4sigma, and Rocky, so they are also highly suspicious on my list.

You're right, I could definitely see EC1 changing IDs then coming back into chat to see the reaction. I'll keep this names in mind, although I'm really doubtful about 4sigma. He did volunteer to be lynched and came pretty close to that happening.



Who else do you think is definitely not EC? Maybe I will also pm them.
There's a lot of people who still haven't said much, so its hard to know. 4sigma and you are the two people I'm most sure are innocent. Gandalf seems to be a little quiet, which made me suspect him at first, but he seems to have come up with some genuinely good advice for the students and I'm starting to think he's innocent. Leela is a poster I haven't seen around before, but from her contribution to the thread so far I think she is a student and serious about the game.

I normally would trust Mulan, as I've had good PMs with her and she is a poster I like, but Leela pointed out how Mulan was proclaiming ignorance about the game even though she took the lead in hosting one of these in the past. This is making me suspicious of her.

You're safe for this round, and I'm going to try to get the students not to waste a lynching on you next round. I'll let you know about any further suspcious activity I see in any of our suspects. Be careful what students you PM, and once we get a ghost leader we should both be sure to pass this stuff on to them.

Ok, just so you know, I have also pm'd kenshiro, the slayer, and Gandalf.

I don't think they are EC, so..

I agree with you about sigma.

snafu would have been my second biggest guess for EC.

I'm also waiting to see if any student pm me. At this point, I'm not going to pm anyone anymore, although I think some are innocent still, such as J.T. All Clear, Leela and maybe Ebenezer.

Karma's post below is also highly suspicious, because he isn't getting any pm yet. probably fretting:


Could I create an anonymous poll as to who are the EC? Or is this against the rules?

Leela
05-31-2004, 10:55 PM
This PM is copied to Leela and to EC_Slayer. Following is my list of everyone who I think has any indications of being innocent or guilty. I will post some thoughts of who I think may be guilty in the main thread, and encourage the players to lynch whoever you may suggest. I think we should start our lynching sometime on Tuesday in order to meet our deadline of Wednesday noon.

4sigma I of course am innocent. I very nearly got myself lynched in round 1. This may or may not have been the best strategy for the students, but it can only be described as a hopeless strategy for EC.

Asynchronous: Almost certainly innocent. Offers to be lynched on page 8. This same strategy very nearly got me lynched. An insane strategy for EC. Asynch is not insane. Therefore he is not EC. Q.E.D.

BC: early to say, but some slight indication of innocence due to being in chat at the same time as EC1. I do not think BC is a sophisticated chatter and I don't know that he would have had the know-how to pull this off. Of course, he could be EC2.

Butters: Some evidence of innocence. Apparently was out of town while EC1 and EC2 were posting to the thread. His "return to town" was very convincing -- I do believe he was gone. Also his analysis of the case against Avi, while perhaps not compelling, does not seem the sort of thing that EC would try, since EC has sort of attempted to mimic Avi in their use of the :burn: icon.

CubedBee: I am reasonably convinced that CubedBee is innocent. This is mainly on the basis of his PM to me, and his PM to Sunny which she forwarded to me. In his PM to me he admits that in his post about his strategy as EC, he held back some of his thoughts so as to not help EC this game. I think if he were EC he would have just said that he had given his full thoughts in his public post. Also in his PM to Sunny where he tells Sunny he thinks she can trust me, that seems like a very strange thing for EC to do. EC would rather keep Sunny suspicious of me, I think. CubedBee is also behaving quite differently from last game, in which he was EC. All together this looks quite likely to be an innocent student.

Gandalf: I do not know what to make of Gandalf yet. I honestly think that he was displeased to be killed by EC so quickly last game, and has decided that it is better for him to be a bit less of a team leader in order to hopefully avoid becoming an early EC target. Of course, a similar strategy would also be a very good one for EC.

Points in his favor:
1) He requested prompt establishment of Ghost Forum
2) He sent me a PM suggesting a possible way to trick EC into identifying themselves (although not one very likely to be effective -- we subsequently scrapped it.)
3) Refines Leela's strategy suggestion on use of ghosts to protect slayer.
4) Suggests use of EC_Slayer to protect the slayer, rather than the lead ghost.

Points that raise suspicion:
1) Resisted becoming lead ghost, which he volunteered for last game.
2) Omitted opportunities to propound strategy. For example, last game he made a major post about his "tell a ghost" strategy. This game, the strategy should be "Tell EC_Slayer". Because EC_Slayer can tell the ghosts, but the ghosts cannot PM EC_Slayer. I am sure Gandalf has thought of this but he has mentioned this only in one line of a rather unnoticed posting. Part of his low-key student strategy? Or a sign of EC?

Anyway, I haven't really got a good read on the wizard yet. Some of the points in his favor could simply be a clever attempt by an EC Gandalf to divert suspicion. The points against him could be the efforts of an innocent Gandalf to avoid an early lynching by EC. I am inclined to let him live a bit longer, in the hopes that he is our ally, but his loyalties are not clear to me.

jadzia: I feel very strongly that jadzia is not EC. I believe she is Canadian and it appears that French is her first language. She makes grammar errors in English, usually one every couple of posts. If she were EC, I would expect to have seen some grammar errors from them by now. Since I have not, I believe that neither EC1 nor EC2 can be jadzia.

J.T. I think it is likely that J.T. is innocent. She is the first one to have posted (top of page 8) that the activation of sleeper EC will annul any evidence to that point that certain students are innocent. I do not think that EC would want to help make that clear, in light of all the confusion that the sleeper EC has generated.

Kenshiro: Slight evidence of innocence due to his good strategy insights, especially his post on page 16.

Mulan: Slightly suspicous due to her attemps to feign naivete. I do think all the bits about slayers and ghosts and sleepers are new to her, and she is not up to speed on strategy the same way as those who played in the previous game. I find her bickering with Will Durant to be fairly meaningless.

snafu: slightly suspicious for lurking in chat with Sunny. Sort of a "scene of the crime" instinct that EC1 might well have carried out. Offset perhaps slightly due to some good attempts to post strategy. While this could be deceptive, snafu strikes me as a newbie and not likely to engage in this deep a deception if he were EC.

Sunny: I don't know what to make of Sunny. I think that the chat transcript with EC1 does argue toward her innocence. I actually logged into chat and saw the end of it, so I am personally certain that the transcript is authentic. Against that, a chat veteran like Sunny could well have arranged it all.

Her typo is a bit suspicious, but I can see how this could be an accident by an innocent student. It could also be the result of switching between the EC ID and her own. I also think her defense has been very vehement, which perhaps is a bit EC-ish, though it is also quite consistent with a woman scorned.

Rocky: Not much of an opinion on Rocky yet. He seems to have had an epiphany since last game, and is out leading the call for a powerful ghost contingent. I think he is a bit scared of being labelled as "EC-ish" like I labelled him last game for his disdain of the ghost strategy. It is something of a coincidence that he wandered into chat with Sunny shortly after EC1 left. Probably meaningless, but who knows. I may just harbor a bit of bias against the guy....

Ulitmate Anyone: I tend to think he is innocent, though this is more of a gut feeling than based on firm evidence. His strategy posts strike me as genuine rather than an EC-deception. I find it interesting that he has picked up the call for lynching the quiet ones, but claims to have insufficient time to give the game. I suspect that perhaps he is the player who was the slayer for round 1 and asked to be replaced -- that would be consistent with the slayer's choice of Oblomov and stu.

Will Durant: A small point in his favor is his failure to bandwagon on the slaying of Oblomov. He would have done better as EC to have joined the bandwagon and had Oblomov lynched, rather than draw attention to himself for his refusal. For example, if Oblomov had turned out to be EC, I think we would all be highly suspicious of Will Durant about now. The fact that Oblomov was not EC makes a slight argument that Will Durant is not EC.

Leela
05-31-2004, 10:56 PM
This alerts you to PM discussion I had with Slayer. I hope my conduct, intended to warn him/her, isn't too suspicious.

It's good to have you on our side. BUT, you may want to be careful opening PMs like this on Memorial Day weekend. If an EC sends you a PM and you open it, they know you're around, and some people have said they won't have any RF access. So I suggest that as EC_Slayer you maintain a low profile until Tuesday at least; maybe until Wednesday morning.EC_slayer did open the same afternoon. No harm done since I’m not EC (hope neither you nor Slayer slays me for suspicious conduct over it), and it may protect Slayer from giving himself or herself away if the real EC tried the same stunt.

Anyway, after EC_Slayer had opened the PM (so that I couldn’t be giving ideas to EC1 or EC2 about Pming our Slayer), I sent Pms to EC1 and EC2, offering that if they told me the ideas of both EC and the sleeper, I would vote for them, win the swingline, and give it to them. Absurd, of course, but maybe it would keep them from realizing that I really Pmed just to see if they would open it. Sent Sat about 4 PM; opened by EC2 between 1 PM and 5 PM Sunday. So he's not someone who really has no RF access, but might be someone who claimed he would be away.

Meanwhile EC1 still (now about 9:15 Monday evening) has not opened the PM to him yet. So he might really be away, might not have logged in as EC1, or might have smelled a trap.

I told Slayer about EC2 opening the PM and that EC1 hadn't (as of when I reported to Slayer, which was probably Sunday evening; Slayer doesn't know it's still unopened.)

The following is just quoted for convenience. I'm conveying the info to you. The fact that I also conveyed it to Slayer is of little import.
I'm not EC, but of course all players would say that. If the students look like they're going to lynch me and you're fine with that, you can stay silent. Or if it looks like they're going to slay someone else you're comfortable with. But if you don't like the outcome that appears likely, you can speak up and direct a different hit, and the students will go along, just as they did with the first slayer's pick of Oblomov.

Personally, I suggest you don't let 4Sigma or Sunny be lynched. There's no realistic chance they're EC. I feel almost as sure Will Durant is not EC. He sent me a PM after round 1 asking why everyone went along with the first slayer's designation of Oblomov. Even though Will hasn't played before, if he were EC he would have gotten familiar enough with game 3 to have understood what was happening.

If you want a positive suggestion as to who to hit (either for intervening in the vote, or for your decision as slayer): Karma Police. EC1 committed that blunder (IMO) of talking to Sunny in Chat. She told me (by PM) that EC1 seemed very comfortable in Chat, thus she thinks he's a frequent chatter, hence may well be Karma Police. I don't want to bring this up in the public thread since it's to the students' advantage if EC1 starts chatting again.

Super Silver Haze
06-01-2004, 08:16 AM
(deleted)

Leela
06-01-2004, 09:36 AM
I realized in my "innocent or guilty" PM to you, I referenced the attached PM, which I hadn't forwarded to you yet. Here it is for your (EC_slayer and Leela et. al.) consideration.

B^3 send me this PM on Wednesday 26 May, in response to a query I sent him about this post (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=30397&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=415). I find this to be some evidence of his innocence. For example, if he were EC this game I would expect that he would have told what his strategy was last game, and then just followed a different strategy this game. That would be the surest way to divert attention from himself as EC. But he didn't do that -- he left out some of the key strategy he followed last game as EC. Strategy that is a pretty good strategy for EC to follow. It appears therefore that he is trying to avoid tipping off EC to their best strategy, in case they're not already aware of it.

I would not say he is innocent based on this PM alone, but this in addition to the PM he sent Sunny, and his change in behavior from last game, all of these combined are very suggestive to me that he is innocent.I'm just curious -- in a post a few pages back you said that as EC you didn't really have any pattern to your killings -- you were just picking off people at random. However, it seemed to me that you did have a preference for picking off the vocal strategists, once Jables died. IIRC, your first two targets were Cho Da and Gandalf.

Now, I also notice that you've been a bit more vocal and strategic this game than you were the last game. For example, your post on page 10, where you discuss the ghost leader strategy and whether the slayer will have access to the ghost forum. So I'm curious if your public position on EC strategy commentary is genuine, or if you're holding back in the hopes of not giving our current EC too much guidance (and perhaps out of self-preservation?) :)

-- 4σ

You're right, I didn't fully disclose my killing strategy. It's true that I didn't have any clue who the Slayer was, however when Jables got killed by the slayer so early, we thought we were dealing with quite a savvy nemesis. Cho Da and Gandalf were the experienced stategists, and seemed most likely. In retrospect, I hadn't realized how much PMing was going on behind the scenes, and probably wouldn't have gone after them. After they failed to pan out, Asynchrous and J.T. were chosen randomly.

Yeah, I think I made a pretty crappy EC. I should have definitely been posting more often and more consistently. Everyone knows I'm an RFaholic. I don't think I'm a very good liar though, which is why I didn't post. With the outcome of the game, I obviously should have taken my chances.

Are you suspicious of anyone yet? This exchange (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=551040#551040) has caused me to keep an eye on Mulan. Who would forget organizing and leading one of these games? The fact that Will refused to change his vote to Oblomov raised my eyebrow, but he claims this is his first game, and it could just be inexeperience. I'm almost completely sure Sunny isn't EC, but she definitely is melodramatic and doesn't seem to have a good grasp on the rules or strategies of the game. I think we should watch for people who continually try to throw suspicion on her. I definitely was always chiming in agreeing with the guilt of others, and I suspect the current EC will as well.

Leela
06-01-2004, 02:34 PM
I don't know if this will be a clue or not, but it looks like EC is killing based on post count. SSH and you have the lowest post counts in this game. If Kaput Shakur is next, then I will probably be #4 unless they change their strategy. However, they may decide to start skipping people to try to convince us to lynch one of our own if anyone ever mentions their post count strategy on the public board. That would lead me to believe that the EC are probably high to moderately high posters. If EC was someone in the low triple digits, I don't think they would start killing off all of the low posters. That also favors my choice to lynch Avi, although it's still likely he's innocent.

Those are my thoughts. I hope you can understand what I was trying to say. Of course, my theory could be worthless. :shake:

Leela
06-01-2004, 04:24 PM
Here's a pm I received from the Slayer. It includes some pms from Gandalf and 4sigma that I have already posted along with some pms I hadn't seen yet. He still hasn't told me what his real ID is. I'm not sure how get him to do that. If you have any suggestions, let me know.


A strategy pm to you will follow this one.

6/1 8:07AM from Snafu

I've sent a previous PM with my suspicions but wanted to reiterrate since the original slayer resigned and there is a new slayer.

I am very sure that jadzia is EC2. I happened to see jadzia in the list of signed in users. Then I saw her drop off, EC2 come on and post to the game thread. Then EC2 dropped off and jadzia immediately came back on.

I think Sunny is EC1 for the following reasons.
Her posting of "Death to the students"
her excessive protesting about her innocence
her chat with EC1 that she posted a transcript of (which a later poster revealed you can be logged into chat with two ids simulteneously
jadzia jumped on the martry 4Sigma bandwagon very quickly in round 1 when it looked like Sunny was about to get lynched
Sunny and Jadzia are often logged in at the same time

I am fairly sure that Cho Da and Rocky are innocent as I have seen both of them signed in at the same time as EC2.

I am very sure that 4Sigma is innocent due to his willingness to be martryed.

I do not think we should lynch either of the EC yet but should instead try to observe jadzia and Sunny to see if we can determine through their voting who the sleeper is. If we eliminate one of the EC then the sleeper (assuming we haven't gotten them yet) will just be activated and we will lose our ability to replace the slayer.

5/30 4:21 PM from Gandalf

For what is worth, shortly after you had opened the PM from me I sent PMs to EC1 and EC2 (offering that if they told me who they, their partner and the sleeper were, I could then win the swingline and give it to them). That idea is absurd, of course, but EC2 did open his PM between 1 and 5 PM eastern time today (Sunday). So he's not someone who really has no RF access, but might be someone who claimed he would be away.

Meanwhile EC1 has not opened the PM to him yet. So he might really be away, might not have logged in as EC1, or might have smelled a trap.

5/28 3:55PM from Sunny

Hey, just so you know, I've been pm'ing with Mulan and now that she might be a sleeper, she was advocating lynching Will Durant in her pm's, which I have forwarded to you as follows. Now, either it was EC1/EC2 that pm'd her, or not, but either way, Will could or could not be EC. This is FYI. Also, could BC be the EC now?

I've gotten a PM that claims I'm the sleeper, but I didn't believe it! Anyone else get something similar?? :o

I plan to be a late sleeper this weekend. :sleep:

BTW, I think Gandalf's last post as follows makes no sense. Except the bold part, that was more why he posted:

All Clear,

I think you are definitely right. I had not realized that loophole. It is not a problem yet, but it is one we must close.

If the sleeper is killed before activation, he is an innocent student, and remains an innocent student, even if the EC has told him he is the sleeper. (They could, if they chose, with complete safely PM someone from the EC1 or EC2 account that the recipient was the sleeper. On the other hand, they could send such a PM from EC1 or EC2 to someone who was not the sleeper, so there is no way the sleeper should trust them.) So anyone who becomes a ghost while there are two active EC must be safe, as far as I can see.

OTOH, once an EC is dead, any future ghost might be the sleeper, might be aligned with the EC, and therefore cannot be admitted to the ghost forum. It seems like too big a risk. (Exception: the slayer can't be the sleeper, so if they get the slayer he/she is safe in the ghosts forum.)

Ghosts after one EC is dead are still free to PM other ghosts or post ideas in the public forum, but we can't let them have access to the information in the Ghost forum.


I say, lynch Mulan and BC and Gandalf are EC!!!!! :swear:

I will actually try and lynch Mulan and Will. But I'd say slaying Mulan might not be a bad idea.

Why did you vote for Cho Da before?No reason. Just floating trial balloons.

Why are you voting for Gandalf? Will Durant is a stronger choice, I think.

Mu

Why? hope I can trust you...

I've talked with him alot in Political and he doesn't seem himself. His questioning the slayer was the final straw to me - I can't see why he wouldn't vote for whoever the slayer says.

But something to consider is that maybe the EC would want one of their members dead, so the sleeper would rise and the students would have no idea if there was one or two. So maybe we should kill completely innocent students for a while to try to get the sleeper. When Will starts acting less ECish would be the time to get him.
Just a thought.

Go students! Death to the EC!!

I'm not sure I get this part.

You should know that I'm totally innocent by now. :roll: I agree that you are probably innocent, though you could be the sleeper and not know it.

When Will starts acting like an innocent student and not so much like EC, I think we can assume that the sleeper is dead by lynch or slaying. He'll have to protect the EC in that case.

Sunny, let's try to get a bunch of people to vote for Will and see what happens....

5/28 2:31PM from Mulan

I'm going to try to get a bunch of people to vote for Will just to see what will happen.

5/28 1:56PM from Gandalf

It's good to have you on our side. BUT, you may want to be careful opening PMs like this on Memorial Day weekend. If an EC sends you a PM and you open it, they know you're around, and some people have said they won't have any RF access. So I suggest that as EC_Slayer you maintain a low profile until Tuesday at least; maybe until Wednesday morning.

I'm not EC, but of course all players would say that. If the students look like they're going to lynch me and you're fine with that, you can stay silent. Or if it looks like they're going to slay someone else you're comfortable with. But if you don't like the outcome that appears likely, you can speak up and direct a different hit, and the students will go along, just as they did with the first slayer's pick of Oblomov.

Personally, I suggest you don't let 4Sigma or Sunny be lynched. There's no realistic chance they're EC. I feel almost as sure Will Durant is not EC. He sent me a PM after round 1 asking why everyone went along with the first slayer's designation of Oblomov. Even though Will hasn't played before, if he were EC he would have gotten familiar enough with game 3 to have understood what was happening.

If you want a positive suggestion as to who to hit (either for intervening in the vote, or for your decision as slayer): Karma Police. EC1 committed that blunder (IMO) of talking to Sunny in Chat. She told me (by PM) that EC1 seemed very comfortable in Chat, thus she thinks he's a frequent chatter, hence may well be Karma Police. I don't want to bring this up in the public thread since it's to the students advantage if EC1 starts chatting again.Happy Memorial Day!

Gandalf

5/28 1:47 PM from Sunny

IF THE STUDENTS SAY "SLAYER, GIVE US A NAME OF SOMEONE TO LYNCH" I WILL SUPPLY A NAME. NOT SURE IF I WILL OTHERWISE.

Ok, gotcha!

Also, I'm sure you'll know this but people might want to pm you much more now (esp the EC) because they want info from you, esp after my post about having some knowledge of your (the prior slayer's) strategy. so don't (obviously you'd know this) say much.

Also, I'm not sure if slaying an innocent student to get the EC to talk would be better after a while (or beginning now), because I suspect the EC might have already talked (at least one of them), and if the other one hasn't, it's their strategy anyways.

My strongest supicions are Gandalf, Rocky, maybe Snafu (but not sure) and that's it. The rest may still come up, but I've filtered them out so far.

Just my two cents.


5/28 11:18AM from Mulan

Have a good time! And happy strategizing. First of all, I'm NOT EC!!

I strongly feel that Will Durant is EC. I've talked with him alot in Political and he doesn't seem himself. His questioning the slayer was the final straw to me - I can't see why he wouldn't vote for whoever the slayer says.

He would probably make a good ghost leader if I'm wrong.

But something to consider is that maybe the EC would want one of their members dead, so the sleeper would rise and the students would have no idea if there was one or two. So maybe we should kill completely innocent students for a while to try to get the sleeper. When Will starts acting less ECish would be the time to get him.

Just a thought.

Go students! Death to the EC!!

5/28 5:57AM from 4sigma

THANK YOU. THE CODE SYSTEM YOU MENTIONED IS PERFECT. IF MORE COMPLEX MESSAGES ARE REQUIRED, I CAN STILL PRIVATE MESSAGE YOU ONCE YOU ARE DEAD, SO WRITE IN A PUBLIC POST THAT YOU HAVE A MESSAGE FOR ME. I WILL THEN PRIVATE MESSAGE YOU WITH A CODE THAT CAN BE USED, AND YOU CAN USE THAT CODE IN A PUBLIC POST WHICH ONLY I WILL UNDERSTAND. THANK YOU FOR ALL THE PRIVATE MESSAGES. :wink: :D

Will do, Captain Morgan! ;)

Possible future categories we could add are drinks, and "combination items" such as sandwiches/salads. And maybe picnic supplies, such as paper cups or plastic forks. I would make a public post saying, "The ghosts have noticed [new characteristic]. You could then PM me a category that will mean that characteristic, and then I could post the information.

I expect to be dead very soon. I think I've advertized to the world that I'm not EC. The only reason EC would have to not kill me is that it's also pretty clear that I'm not the slayer. Or should I say, it was pretty clear, until our slayer abdicated. :swear: Now I'm just as likely as anyone. Perhaps my only hope is to inspire fear in EC that I would create some sort of formidable ghost organization.

By the way, I think that everyone should send you PMs regarding who they think is innocent. The theory being similar to that of last game, that we don't want EC to know who we think is innocent. Assuming you're willing to deal with the flood of traffic this will generate for you, perhaps you should make a post to this effect. Or if you prefer to keep your public postings to a minimum, perhaps you could ask one of our ghosts to make such a post on your behalf.

Assuming that I die soon, I would appreciate if you would save copies of any PMs that you receive, so that you can send them to me when I'm dead, and I can post them on the ghost forum. In the event that I somehow don't get killed by EC, I am sure that some other ghost can be conscripted to perform this exciting task.

By the way, I'm sending you some copies of PMs that I've received, so that you can consider whether they are indicative of anything. I've had PMs back and forth with about 10 of the other players, to see if I can learn anything about their likely innocence, and also in case they happen to have observed anything interesting.

-- 4σ

5/28 5:47AM from 4sigma regarding pm from asynchronous

This is a PM that I sent to Asynchronous on May 26, in response to a PM of his of May 25th. I include it mainly because of what Asynchronous wrote to me. I am fairly convinced that Asynchronous is innocent, for the reasons I PM'd you earlier -- mainly his offer to be lynched on page 8 of the thread. As you can see, he also had quite a bit of insight to provide.
Thanks for the message. Yes - I was more than a little surprised that my offer was completely and utterly ignored (except by you, now). I guess they wanted a celebrity ghost instead! I now suspect that I will become a lynching target in about 5 rounds or so, when someone sees that I posted that and never followed up. So actually, I'm more afraid of lynching (or slaying) than EC assassination.
If I were you, I wouldn't worry about being a lynching target. Again, it seems that nobody noticed. However, I have mentioned it to the slayer as evidence that you are probably innocent and shouldn't be slain, and to CubedBee, but not to anyone else. Since the slayer is directing our lynchings, I do not see that you are at any risk.

I would worry more if there gets to be a lot of publicity about it and a widespread sentiment for your innocence develops, as this would make you a more attractive EC target. I think your best strategy now is to stay low-key, hope that you aren't the sleeper EC, and try and survive deep into the game. If the ghosts and slayer are aware of your innocence without EC catching on, this would be a very good thing for the students, as we would increase our odds of hitting EC each round. Of course, once the sleeper activates, all bets are off....


I agree with you about the Gandalf situation. He did announce before the roles were picked that he was going to play this one quietly, which is a point in his defense. But I agree that his behavior was strange, and he could be either EC or slayer. Perhaps we should PM this to EC_Slayer and suggest that they slay Gandalf. That was if he's the slayer, he can protect himself, and if not, we can resolve the EC issue without the risk of lynching the slayer.
I have pointed out his odd behaviour to the slayer. I think it is early to lynch him but we should keep a wary eye.


I'm totally stumped by the slayer's selection of Oblomov. Unless it was a "kill the silent" move. That strategy is less important in this game due to the recission of the quorum rule, but it will matter later on when we get to the endgame.
With the slayer's selection of stu, it appears that the slayer was targeting quiet folks. However, it also appears that the slayer didn't have enough time to devote to the game. My flood of E-mails to him may well have helped create this perception.


On the Sunny issue, I agree that would be extremely unlikely that she would forget to switch accounts for her Death to the Students post. I was willing to overlook that as a red herring. However, her subsequent defense is triggering red flags. I would be willing to support a lynching at some point on the basis that I consider her to have a more than 2/n chance of being EC at this point.
I'm still undecided on Sunny. I will have to study her defense a bit more.


I don't have a high enough profile to receive PMs from people. I consider that to be one of the better sources of information, as the messages would either a) not be couched in the same language as a public post; or b) would contain a specific message targeted at aspecific recipient, which would have a higher "information value". That was one of the reasons I was volunteering to be ghost coordinator - I felt that the group would lose less by lynching me that they would if 4σ, Gandalf, etc. were taken out of the "live players" pool, and thus could no longer carry on PM dialogs with other live students (including the 2 ECs).
I agree that PMs are pretty good info. I confess I've had PMs going with about 8 different people so far -- you, Gandalf, Rocky, EK, Sunny, B^3, the slayer, and thing. However, you may find that it is better to remain low-profile than to call attention to yourself and become an EC target. B^3 did tell me that that was the reason he selected Gandalf and Cho Da last game. I think you began to fill their shoes when they were gone, and may have thus attracted a bit of B^3's attention, though he claims you were a random pick.


I really don't have any suspects at this time. The signal to noise ratio has been quite low - 21 pages for one lynching and one killing? I'll be going through things more carefully in a couple of rounds once things have had a chance to develop. In the meantime, in addition to Gandalf and Sunny, my watch list (not yet suspects) includes Mulan (why wouldn't she know the rules) and Cho Da (deviation from standard behavior).
Yes, the S-N ratio is abysmal. I think if we kill off Karma Police it should improve. I hope Sunny quits sulking as she is also weakening the remaining signal. I don't find Mulan all that suspicious -- I believe her actual statement was that the stuff about ghosts and sleepers and slayers was new to her, which is true. They do change the strategy significantly. Cho Da is being awfully quiet for a man who suggested lynching the quiet folks last game. Haven't seen any strategy at all from him this game -- just a few votes. I think I shall send him a PM and see what he has to say for himself.


I agree with you about CubedBee's presumed innocence at this point.
It's not conclusive, but I think it's a good assumption for the moment.



5/28 5:40AM from 4sigma regarding pm from traina

This one is from Thursday 5/26. Not sure that it means much yet, but wanted you to have it while I'm still allowed to send it.No problem. I was really impressed with your analysis in the last game, even though I thought you were probably EC :oops:

I'm not at all sure what to make of Sunny. I can't fathom how someone could confuse Death to Students with Death to EC...but that's just me. I'm tending towards thinking she's guilty, but then she also keeps referring to the students as stupid...which really gets on my nerves...but may prove that she's innocent...I don't think EC would want to distance themselves that obviously from the students.

I'm suspicious of Leela, because of her comment with respect to absences of Butters and myself. Whereas on the surface it looks very helpful, it reminds me of Jables' suspicious comment early on in the previous game with respect to Hagbard's absence....I found it really hard, first of all to realise this game was on, and then to wade through all the posts and to keep track of when and why people were going to be absent would have been near impossible for me. So I'll keep my eye on her. However, I don't know her at all, so maybe she's just really observant and could be an innocent student.

**Just editted this, cause I checked the thread and Leela is now keeping track of the voters...not evidence of guilt necessarily...as 42 and myself kept track last time...but Jables did also help keep track...for the brief time he was alive...hmm***

Mulan, I don't have a feeling for one way or another yet. She seems to be her usual self.

Hope my ramblings help...unless YOU are EC! :evil:


5/28 5:38AM from 4sigma regarding pm from Sunny

This was sent on Weds 5/25. I think it is perhaps evidence that CubedBee is not EC. Maybe also less likely for Sunny to be EC.The following I think you should know...

I'm hoping that you are not EC.

I have something to tell the students, so I'll tell you. I believe Karma Police is EC. I have been in chat for a while now. Normally people wouldn't really go in chat, even if they see that I'm there. EC1, however, went into chat and chatted with me, the transcript of which I posted. It seems to me he is familiar with chat and would just go in because he's done it before.

Karma is a close friend of mine irl, we're both in NYC and have studied together, however, he has been very insistent on lynching me, and has never denied that he isn't EC when I asked him.

so my first guess would be, lynch karma and see if he's EC.

I'm not sure about the going into chat thing since I'm hardly ever there, but I'll defer to you as the expert. I do agree that Karma has be very insistent on your guilt and lynching you. I think most of the more sophisticated players realize that you just made a silly mistake and don't seriously suspect you. In addition to Karma, Will and snafu seem to be both pushing pretty hard to get you lynched. At this point of the game, I find that behavior pretty suspicious.


Also, another thing to note. Usually when one logs out of chat (since I'm such a chat expert,) if he still is curious about what's going on there, he'd log back in a different ID just to lurk. After EC1 logged out, there are just a couple of players that would go in and check out what was going on, and they were BC, Snafu, 4sigma, and Rocky, so they are also highly suspicious on my list.
You're right, I could definitely see EC1 changing IDs then coming back into chat to see the reaction. I'll keep this names in mind, although I'm really doubtful about 4sigma. He did volunteer to be lynched and came pretty close to that happening.


Who else do you think is definitely not EC? Maybe I will also pm them.
There's a lot of people who still haven't said much, so its hard to know. 4sigma and you are the two people I'm most sure are innocent. Gandalf seems to be a little quiet, which made me suspect him at first, but he seems to have come up with some genuinely good advice for the students and I'm starting to think he's innocent. Leela is a poster I haven't seen around before, but from her contribution to the thread so far I think she is a student and serious about the game.

I normally would trust Mulan, as I've had good PMs with her and she is a poster I like, but Leela pointed out how Mulan was proclaiming ignorance about the game even though she took the lead in hosting one of these in the past. This is making me suspicious of her.

You're safe for this round, and I'm going to try to get the students not to waste a lynching on you next round. I'll let you know about any further suspcious activity I see in any of our suspects. Be careful what students you PM, and once we get a ghost leader we should both be sure to pass this stuff on to them.

Ok, just so you know, I have also pm'd kenshiro, the slayer, and Gandalf.

I don't think they are EC, so..

I agree with you about sigma.

snafu would have been my second biggest guess for EC.

I'm also waiting to see if any student pm me. At this point, I'm not going to pm anyone anymore, although I think some are innocent still, such as J.T. All Clear, Leela and maybe Ebenezer.

Karma's post below is also highly suspicious, because he isn't getting any pm yet. probably fretting:

Could I create an anonymous poll as to who are the EC? Or is this against the rules?


5/28 5:34AM from 4sigma regarding pms from Gandalf

Sent Tuesday May 25th.
Lest you think I'm suggesting that maybe we shouldn't lynch you because I'm EC and scared:
1. OK, that's possible; but there's another good explanation:
2. Look at the prior game. I was extremely vehement among the ghosts that Macroman was not EC because he stepped up as potential lynchee/ghost leader at a time it put him in extreme peril. You did the same. Neither EC1 nor EC2 would. It's way too risky.

As I said in the public post, if we hit you we get a good ghost leader. Plus we have a 1/32 chance of getting the sleeper. (Since neither EC1 nor EC2 is the sleeper). On the other hand, if we hit at random we have about 3 times as good a chance of hitting an EC or the sleeper; and we keep someone alive that I'm strongly convinced is not EC.

I'm not posting that argument publicly in hope the EC's don't realize you're a sure student.

Sent Weds May 26th, in response to a PM of mine suggesting some sort of code system if he is the slayer. At the time, I thought Gandalf's reluctance to be lynched suggested that he might be EC or the slayer. I still think it is possible he is EC. Note that I have not sent him the detail of our actual code system, just discussed the idea of some possible ciphers with him.
I'm not EC, even if you think this response suggests I am. My interpretation of the rules is that Ghosts communications to players really have to be open to all. I.e., no codes, no e-mails, no responses that only one player could possibly understand, etc. [And no agreeing with a specific player than you would edit a specific one of your ancient public posts in another thread, even though in principle that edited post would be available to all.] What you do is up to you. If it affects your willingness to become a Ghost, you could ask Mr. P.

If you think this indicates I'm EC since this interpretation is limits the students:
1. You know, in the last game, when I was definitely student, that I was trying to follow Mr. P's guideline, even though it wasn't a published rule. I acknowledged PMs from players, but didn't pass any info back.
2. I'm not going to ask Mr. P about the interpretation. If you want to share that coding scheme (or a different one) with someone else, I won't interfere.

Another PM Gandalf sent me Weds May 26th.In case you become a ghost, or as info in case you don't:

Some people may take my insults of EC1 and EC2 as hiding the fact that I am EC1 or EC2. I'm surprised no one has suggested that publicly.

In fact, I think the more we get EC1 and EC2 to post, the better for us. It might be nice if I had any really ammunition to throw at them, but there isn't much to work with.

This one is from Thursday May 27thI think it was stupid of EC1 to join chat, for example -- this proves that EC1 cannot possibly be anyone who is on vacation, or anyone who cannot access the internet at 11:45 a.m. Pacific Time on a weekday.I agree: joining Chat was an incredible blunder. I'm not sure how much to comment on it in case he's crazy enough to do it again. Hopefully with sufficient goading, we can get the EC to provide additional clues to who they are not, and thus narrow the field.

I also am inclined to believe that Sunny is innocent. She appears to be reasonably clever, and she did follow the last EC game. So I think she understands that EC would like to stay out of the limelight -- which she has done exactly the reverse of, through her multitudinous responses to every least comment regarding herself.I think innocent, but she seems to be flaky, not clever, at least in this thread.

As one of the veterans around here, I'm curious what you make of the exhange between Leela and Mulan, regarding Mulan's attempt to claim inexperience. Is this out of character for Mulan? I don't really know her that well, or have a sense of what depth of experience she actually has with this game.I don't think it suggests much. It's a little surprising, but games 1 and 2 were a long time ago. Since I can't see any advantage to claiming inexperience by her, I attach little significance. Indeed, if anything she might have been more careful before making such a statement if she were EC.

Those are all the important pm's I got as slayer. Before I was annointed slayer when the previous one resigned, Rocky sent the previous slayer this

5/26 4:14PM from Rocky to previous slayer

I wanted to send this to you as an FYI. Since you seem to be filling the role that the ghosts performed last game, this information may turn out to be useful.

I am fairly certain that you are not EC as I have seen you logged in at the same time as EC2.

I know who EC2 is as I saw a student logged in, then drop off when EC2 logged in, then come right back as soon as EC2 logged out. I will reveal this person latter.

This person is one of the people defending Sunny.

I am very sure that Sunny is EC. If I am wrong then I will of course be viewed with tremendous suspicion. If I'm right, then lynching Sunny will also help confirm my guess for EC2.

If you swap your vote back to Sunny, your influence will help get the bandwagon rolling again. I am sending the PM to you and a couple of others.

Consider why Sunny would defend herself so vehemently. She is EC.

And from 4sigma to the previous slayer on 5/27 6:03AM

Here are my [unencrypted] thoughts at the moment of who is innocent or guilty.

Probably innocent:

1) Asynchronous. For his virtually unnoticed offer on page 8 of the thread to be lynched and become the lead ghost. This post was made before the bandwagon for Gandalf started, and before I volunteered myself. So Asynchronous was putting himself at serious risk of his offer being accepted. The fact that it was not does not change the fact that it would be very very risky strategy of EC to make the post that he made.

2) CubedBee. He is acting completely differently this game than he did last game. In particular, he is far more extroverted than when he was EC last game. This alone would not necessarily be conclusive. But Sunny also forwarded me a PM where CubedBee is advising Sunny that I am innocent. (Sunny has become a bit paranoid and is suspicious of everyone, including myself for having chatted with her.) If CubedBee were EC, I do not think he would take it upon himself to encourage Sunny to trust me.

3) jadzia. She is from Montreal, and it appears that English is her second language. She frequently makes errors in English grammar. However, both EC1 and EC2 have demonstrated the ability to put together some complex and slang sentences. I do not think jadzia is capable of this. Thus, she cannot be EC.

4) I hope that I'm on your innocent list. I did very nearly get myself lynched by volunteering, which is quite a poor strategy for EC.


There's admittedly not much evidence of guilt yet. Here's what little I have observed:

1) I have a bit of a wary eye on Gandalf for his reluctance to be lynched, though if he is innocent it is quite possible that he might just not want to be a martyr this game. He did die rather early last game. Still, I would have expected him to exhibit some willingness to be lead ghost. However, I consider this evidence to be far from conclusive against him. Because of his strategic prowess, I would prefer to try and keep him among the living unless the evidence against him becomes a fair bit stronger.

2) This is probably nothing, but it is something of a coincidence that Rocky showed up in chat shortly after EC1 left. Probably this signifies nothing more than my propensity to notice anything remotely suspicious about Rocky. If you slay him, however, this will probably make people a bit suspicious of myself being the slayer, and may get me executed more rapidly by EC.

I think there are some other events of note which others may find suspicious, but I do not. In particular:

1) Sunny's posting of "Death to the students" and her subsequent chat transcript defense. I think this whole thing has been blown utterly out of proportion. If she is EC, she is the stupidest EC ever for making such a spectacle of herself. EC would much rather lie low this early in the game. Sunny may be blonde, but she's not dumb. She spectated much of the last game and understood the strategies. I don't think she would have made this sort of fuss if she were EC. But her alibi with the EC1 chat is admittedly a bit convenient. EC1 is really stupid for logging into chat. Unless, of course, Sunny is EC and arranged the chat session. Anyway, I think that Sunny is too smart to make this kind of bonehead error if she were EC, but against that, the clever chat alibi is not beyond here. Overall I make it a wash whether she is any more likely to be guilty than anyone else.

I believe Leela suggested that Mulan appeared suspicious for her attempt to appear naive. Mulan did run an EC game a couple of years ago. However, there were no ghosts, slayers, or sleepers back then, which is all that Mulan actually said in her post which Leela considers suspicious. I find the accusation against Mulan to be more damning of Leela than of Mulan, though it is quite possibly a normal paranoid reaction by an innocent Leela. Anyway, I wouldn't go about lynching Mulan over this.


If there's really nothing to go on this round as to who is EC, I would recommend that you slay someone quiet. There are certainly some quiet ones around -- Anonymouse, Kaput Shakur, and stu, for starters. Though there is an argument to make that they are not EC, since EC1 and EC2 have been around but they have not. I'm too lazy at the moment to check whether they have posted to any other threads, but perhaps someone else has researched this, or you may be inspired to look it up.

If none of the quiet types appeal to you, Karma Police is starting to work his way up my annoying list, and his slaying might well render the thread a bit more readable for the rest of the game. (Please don't take this personally if you are KP. Consider it some friendly advice.) :D

Good luck with your slaying, and I'll be in touch regularly, as long as I have breath. FYI, I have been exchanging some rather detailed PMs with Asynch and CubedBee, and some slightly less detailed ones with Rocky and Sunny. And have sent what could charitably be called a fishing expedition to Gandalf, to see if I can get a better read on the wizard.

CubedBee also pm'd me the conversation he had with Sunny, which Sunny included in her pm.

In addition, 4sigma and Gandalf said they pmd you messages that were also sent to me, most importantly Gandalf, on 6/1, with "communicating" as the first word of the subject line and 4sigma on 5/31 with the first word of the subject line being "innocent", and 4sigma on 5/29 with the first word being "EC strategy" If you somehow did not recieve one of these, type the word "send" somewhere in the next post you write in the thread. Also, there are some other, more minor pm's that were sent th the previous slayer that are said again in future posts by the same person. Also, Sunny has been pming a lot before, but with things that don't apply, because she does not understand the rules. I will address that shortly....

Leela
06-01-2004, 04:51 PM
Sunny talks a lot. Probably a little too much. My feelings are that, contrary to pm's from other students, she is more likely than average to be an EC member. The thing is, if she is such, I have little doubt she will say something that make students even more suspicious later on in the game. She sent the previous EC Slayer half a dozen pm's (more than everyone else combined), and has sent me a couple, each of which I believe I sent in the post where I sent pretty much all the pm's I've got. I don't see a need to get rid of her now.

4sigma has personally helped me a lot, with first deciding that codes should be used, and giving some intriguing ideas of innocence and guilt by other members, as well as sending over pm's from many of them. As someone that is almost surely innocent (if he fooled us, he is one of the smartest people I have met in my life), I think his opinions should be valued slightly higher than those of an average "student" who may be an EC member. This I feel to be a very good thing, that there is a "student" that we are almost sure is not an EC member. The problem is that once we kill an EC, we can no longer listen to him in the same way, since he might now be the activated sleeper. Still, because of the slim chances we have of knocking an EC on this turn or next, I would like to keep him around as a student, and hope that he wont be killed anytime soon. The advantage of killing him and having him as a ghost now, is he would be able to help us throughout the game, without suspicions of ever being an EC member. While I will defer to you guys (ghosts) on this, by preference would be not to knock a Gandalf, 4sigma, or the like, that seem to be helping us as students, by telling us strategies, or sending us pms they have with others.

Leela
06-01-2004, 05:56 PM
I helped establish Hagbard Celine last game by voting my name upon his recommendation to lynch. I did this to have others give him respect and push my influence within the ghost committee.

Will Durant = EC2
Avi = EC1
karma police = EC1
Gandalf = EC2
snafu = EC1
Mulan = EC1, sleeper EC

Ghosts only have as much power as the students give them. Revolution against your committee will occur while you eliminate quiet students. Be certain to select those whom you believe to be EC. Don’t plan endgame this early in the game.

EC1 chatted with Sunny and used “yourself” first post of the gate. EC2 is a grammarian.

Leela
06-01-2004, 07:37 PM
(deleted)

Super Silver Haze
06-01-2004, 11:58 PM
(deleted)

Super Silver Haze
06-02-2004, 12:06 AM
(deleted)

Leela
06-02-2004, 12:11 AM
(deleted)

Super Silver Haze
06-02-2004, 12:21 AM
(deleted)

Leela
06-02-2004, 12:46 AM
(deleted)

Leela
06-02-2004, 10:03 AM
Here are some pms I received on June 1 that didn't get posted here somehow.



My thoughts as best to lynch:

1. Anonymouse. Not a single post in this thread since the one where he signed up. He's around, having posted in several different threads in Games over the weekend. As in the prior game, I think it's important to hit the quiet ones, otherwise you risk getting to the end with nothing to go on. Deciding to take him out this soon is a little extreme, but 0 posts is a little extreme, too. And I don't think there are alternatives that are likely to be EC, except maybe
2. Karma Police. Lots of bad vibes about his posting style. And, as I'm pretty sure I suggested before, he's a fairly likely choice to have been the EC that was in Chat with Sunny.
And finally, there's
3. Mulan. Nothing extreme, but I find her attacks on Will Durant not convincing and not even seeming like she thought they had any merit. That's OK; throwing around suspicion to stir up discussion is reasonable. But it didn't seem natural. Then there was the issue about her not remembering game 2 when she ran it. I had forgotten that she ran it (I didn't even play that one), but I don't see how she would have.

As to innocent (besides me):
4Sigma, definitely
Will Durant
Sunny
Avi
BC (I think he was definitely looking for info about the rules today, and I think an EC would know)
All Clear (because of his confusion about the rules, and because of his suggestion about how to communicate with ghosts, even though Mr. P disallowed it)
J.T.
snafu

As the game goes on, I may again have doubts about some I've listed as innocent, but I'm hoping you don't hit them this round. Some of the thoughts about who's innocent are based on PMs from them. None of it is hard enough evidence that if I forwarded the PM you would say "they can't be EC". But I hope you've got little suspicion against them, so that a mild expression of support is enough to save them.

Gandalf









Dear Ghost Forum,

I'm almost 100% sure that one of the EC is Will Durant. However, we wouldn't want to lynch or slay an EC member yet, because our slayers health and the possibility of a sleeper rising would both be bad for the students.

The other EC might be Cho Da, Cubedbee, or Kenshiro.

I say keep killing the quiet ones. OR kill me so I can get some work done.... :D

Mu

Leela
06-02-2004, 12:49 PM
(deleted)

snafu
06-02-2004, 01:14 PM
The reason snafu is number 1 for me is that she said jadzia is EC2. 4sigma, whom I trust, said jadzia was not EC because English is not her first language and he hadn't seen the ECs make any grammatical errors. Ebenezer Kohl, whom I also trust, independently said that EC2 was a grammarian (someone skilled in grammar) - the exact opposite of what one would expect from jadzia.



snafu said:
I am very sure that jadzia is EC2. I happened to see jadzia in the list of signed in users. Then I saw her drop off, EC2 come on and post to the game thread. Then EC2 dropped off and jadzia immediately came back on.

That sounds like garbage to me. What, did she just sit there on the main page and keep reloading it over and over? I don't think that list updates automatically.

Yes, that is exactly what I did. I baited the EC trying to get them to post and watched the loging screen. It was a boring morning with nothing to do.

Leela
06-02-2004, 03:52 PM
Here's a pm I received from the Slayer on June 1. I forwarded it to SSH. The Slayer wants to use this code in the future. So, I'm posting it here for all current and future ghosts to see.

I would like to suggest that the ghosts give me guidance on who to choose, and give me two or three or four names (in code) for either the students to lynch or myself to slay. I am of the firm belief that multiple ghosts can figure more things out than a single slayer, even one as d*mn smart as I. 4sigmas code may be used if you feel it is alright for him to know who we think are suspicous, or if not, I would like to reccomend this for the next three or four choices (based on Gandalf's strategy)- using the names on Mr. Penguin's original post on page 1, with 14 being the top person (ebenezer), 15 being the second (cubedbee), 16 being the next (Will Durant), all the way down until the bottom where 48 is thing. I would like the numbers given in this form, with a comma after each. _ _ _ a a _ , _ _ _ b b _ , _ _ _ c c _ , _ _ _ d d _ where the aa, bb, cc, dd are the suspicious people, people you think are EC (the blank spaces can be filled in with any number, and please remember to double check to make sure you got the numbers right). for example, a post of 183248, 382301, 800149 means that there are three people the ghosts would like to see killed, and in order, they are id# 24, 30, and 14 (Gandalf, Anonymouse, and ebenezer).

It appears as if the students would like a name by this evening, so if I do not see a post by you or SSH with numbers by 8PM, I will give a name of my own this evening, though to be honest, though I have a hunch or two, I have no strong suspiciouns. A name (and by that I mean a few numbers, of course) from you guys would be appreciated. If I do see numbers from you, I will probably choose the first one, and type the name out for the students to vote on.

Leela
06-02-2004, 03:52 PM
In terms of who I am hitting, I am currently leaning toward Anonymouse, with possibilities of Ahow or Sunny. Following this pm, I'll be sending you the messages I have gotten over the last day. Please put this message in the forum, so that I can be filled in on your thoughts on who to hit.

At first I wanted to knock people that are not involved in the game and don't post much (and when they do, post nothing of real meaning) since later in the game they still won't be saying anything, and it will be hard to determine what their thoughts are. Anonymouse has made only two posts since signing up, both of them today when he first voted for Snafu, and then explained why he hasn't posted more. From the other threads I have read, Anonymouse tends to post a lot. In the previous EC game, Anonymouse changed his vote at one point so much, it was compared to "changing his vote as often as he changed his underwear". In this game he has not been doing that, and has changed his posting his habits. In the second post he made today, he implied that he would not be writing much in the future, so I believe I will be slaying him, hopefully to get an EC member (I don't know why he isn't posting anything when he did so much last time- could that be the reason?), but if not, to get a quiet one.

Ahow has only posted three times since signing up, and has not posted at all since the 28th. The thing is, he didn't post in any thread since the 28th, so he may just be away. Still though, the only post where he really mentioned something of thought in the game, is when he expressed interest in running the list of who has voted for what. He apparently never followed up on that. I am wondering if that is a sign that he wants people to think he is involved in the game, but isn't.... Still though, I realize this isn't a strong reason for suspicion. The main reason Ahow is here, is because of only three posts, mostly of little to no substance, over the course of the game.

Sunny is to me the most suspicious person on this board. She is an actuarial student who has already passed a couple of exams, so I know she is smart- the thing is that most of her game-related posts lead to things that would be bad ideas for students to follow. Her private message through suspicions for quite odd reasons. The "death to the students" thing does have me wondering whether she meant to write it or not.... I know some (Gandalf especially) are convinced she is innocent, and if a ghost or two feels the same way, I won't use a slaying turn on her for a long time, if at all.

How about this code- as soon as all the ghosts have had a chance to read this, please post a six digit number in the forum. _ a _ _ _ _ where the blanks are any number, and the "a" (second of the six digits) is the code number meaning the ghosts think

1 = get Anonymouse
2 = get Ahow
3 = get Sunny
4 = ghosts have no opinion, whoever I think is EC or suspicious is fine
5 = get someone else (If doing this, follow the first six digit number by another six digit one, with the person you would MUCH rather me hit, using the same code from last time, where numbers 4 and 5 of the six digits are the important ones, and the top person is number 14, etc.)

In the future, I like this setup, where I tell you who I will hit and you tell me who you will before it happens. This way, I can continue to protect the slayer (me) from you, and you all can fill me in on things I may not be privy to.

I will wait until this evening if I don't see a number before that. At that point, I'll probably just go with Anonymouse.

Leela
06-02-2004, 03:54 PM
(even tho he was one of the ones I PMed to the ghosts as probably innocent student)

Sorry Gandalf. That pm got kind of lost in the shuffle. I am going to start a new thread in the Ghost Forum that is dedicated to keeping a list of who thinks which players are innocent or EC. So, if people would like to send me their list of most likely innocent and most likely EC, that would be great.

I can't promise that we'll follow everyone's list, but it would really help us out.

Hey you guys, I'm not quite sure if I would lynch snafu this time, but again I defer to what you want us to do this time.

I did some figuring out at the end of last week and had my guesses, but although I've been following (kinda) the game, I'm no strategist and can be wrong. But these are my guesses.

Suspicious:

Karma Police -- because EC1 came into chat to talk to me, as if 1. he's familiar with chat and comfortable about getting into it anytime and 2. he knows me and feels bad about the situation--Karma knows me irl, we studied together. And I've told him multiple times in chat or in pm's that I'm really not EC, but unlike what he's like irl, he has been very insistent on why I would be EC! :x That's just very suspicious to me. He was in chat both while EC1 was still kinda around, and after that, I've noticed he's been lurking a lot more. I actually would personally choose to lynch Karma and Rocky first. Then maybe Mulan.

Rocky -- he is extremely suspicious to me. The way he posts. The way he advocated me. Then tried to flirt with me and befriend me in chat. He came back to chat after EC1 was gone. He also seem to leave me alone after the students did not quite all jump on the bandwagon to lynch and when I said whoever wanted to lynch me would be EC. I knew EC would be quiet after the whole fiasco with me and he did also decide to lay low after saying some more things as Rocky until the weekend came around. I can't remember everything that made me suspicious of him, such as how he started posting last Monday, how he tried to get the conversation going after SSH was slained, but he and Karma are definitely my prime target for EC.

Mulan -- I wonder, and really am leaning to thinking yes, if she is EC sleeper. I think she slipped out there. And I think she's been quite activein proposing people to lynch, this could be a suspicious EC behavior, out to get innocent students. In general, I propose people that seem suspicious for a reason, not for no reason. I've asked Mulan why Cho Da etc. She would say, for no reason. That's just kinda weird to me.

Not sure if Suspicious (between outright Suspicious and Probably innocent):

Will Durant -- he could be innocent. Mulan has been telling me he should be lynched, although I still am not sure why. I haven't said much to Mulan myself either, since I'm not sure if I trust her. But we've had a few pm exchanges, in which she has multiple times advocated lynching Will. But personally, even though he tries to lynch me, I think he might just be an innocent student. (Is he also Yoda?)

Cho Da -- Again almost the same as Mulan--Mulan keeps saying he's EC. Again I haven't had too many pm exchanges with her. But ya know how once you've had an exchange you tend to watch what that person posts. Cho Da has been pretty antagonistic to me. Not sure if it's because I had a confrontation with Red in the problems area and he seems to be Red's friend. I also saw him in chat shortly after the EC1 incident, although not right then and there, but somewhat after. So I'm not sure about him.

Gandalf -- even though he's been very details and somewhat helpful and informative publicly (and maybe to the ghosts and the slayer), I have pm'd the slayer cubedbee, 4sigma and Gandalf after my encounter with EC1, and his was the most terse response. Unlike the others, he did NOT warn me to not pm too many other people. His pm response was the shortest and most brief, and least helpful. Cubedbee also said his behavior is very different from the last game's. I don't know, it seems that you guys are trusting this guy?? I actually would lynch him third because I'm like this, until I'm really sure because of really concrete facts, I would hate to think he's ok when he's not, especially if he is EC, he can turn the strategy against the students and we're weaker already in this game. And if he's not, even though the ghosts may not have as much power, I feel if we have gandalf there we won't have to worry about if the ghosts are too weak ever. However, I could also be wrong, and he did say he'll be more quiet next time. So he's in the in-between category.

BC -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts. Although he was on my suspicious list before. But some of his reasonings have been pretty calm and clear-headed. but I'm not so completely sure about his innocence, so I'm putting him in the middle category. Although I tend to think he's innocent.

Probably Innocent:

Ebenezer Kohlx -- he seems to be saying things that an innocent student would say, ie. very specific in what he's trying to figure out and asking things that seem to indicate him being just a student.

CubedBee -- we've had several pm's that I've included the slayer with. I probably trusted Cubed the most. He seems to be an innocent student this time and has been extremely informative as we brainstormed.

J.T. -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

4sigma -- probably the most likely to be innocent. :)

[the following conclusion actually came after some studying of the entire thread, although I could be wrong but I thought they are innocent tho, for the most part I tried not to be too cynical but more simple in my observations. in general, I think if we're too cynical almost anybody can seem like the EC. so in my more straight-forward and intuitive way I think the following is innocent]

Hagbard Celine -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Ultimate Anyone -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Kenshiro -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Jables -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Maine-iac -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

All Clear -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

jadzia -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Traina -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

RedSoxFan -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Kaput Shakur -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Butters -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.

Macroman -- I think he's innocent by the way he posts.



The rest I just don't know:

Avi

Ahow

Asychronous

Anonymouse

Werewolf -- I may have had some opinion about him before, but I don't seem to see my sheet of paper anywhere as I am doing this last minute analysis all anew right now, trying to get this in before our noon deadline.

thing -- same as werewolf

Leela
06-02-2004, 03:55 PM
I sent this to 4sigma, and decided that it was worth sending to EC_Slayer and to the ghosts, so here you go:

Checking in again with a couple of ruminations...

I think that EC gave us one important clue that while it was mentioned publicly, I'm not sure enough attention may have been focused (or perhaps wisely, the attention has not been publicised). This concerns the avatar that EC2 I believe first selected. If I recall correctly, EC2 originally had an SOA logo. This would be a pretty strong clue as to which society they are a member of, as I'm doubtful as to whether they would have realized that this was a givaway. I believe EC1 could go either way since the discussion of avatars occured before EC1 ever posted. However, EC2 made the following strange posting:

Hey EC1, you never did admit to changing your logo.
Logo change? What are you talking about?

Are you one of those dual-society candidates?
In the interest of fair play, I will let you know that I am indeed "one of those dual-society candidates."

Dual-society could mean that they are a student taking 1-4 which are dual-society, or it could be a red herring. Even if they are dual-society, their employer (if they have one) would cause them to self-identify as SOA or CAS.

It might be useful to compile a listing of the students categorized by SOA, CAS or student. Then if we can verify the avatar issue to determine where EC2's bias, we could narrow the list.

In addition, the machismo posting of both EC1 &2 is going to do them in. Whenever they write more than a simple phrase, we get language that we know is EC that we can compare back to the language of known students. I think there are two examples already that warrant analysis:

As you said, EC1 seems like a gay male. NTTAWWT.

There is nothing I love more than long hard wizard wands. I don't think that alone makes me a gay male does it?

I think this (grossly offensive) post was made by a younger male - college or early twenties. Once I have time to review the member list, I think we could get it down to a fairly narrow list.


BOO!!!
Man, I love being the EC. Fear and ignorance. Ignorance and fear. Yous guys gonna do half our work for us.

Again, I think this is a male poster. Also, the quote is telling. The middle two sentences are too unigue not to be a quote. The quite is from a role-playing game called Paranoia. The full quote is "Fear and Ignorance. Ignorance and Fear. These are our watchwords." The game Paranoia dates back to at least 1991 (the quote appears here in 1991) (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3yLV12w163w%40shark.cs.fau.edu&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522fear%2520and%2520ignorance.%2520 %2520Ignorance%2520and%2520fear%2522%2520watchword s%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg). This means were probably talking about an older, male player who is or was a D&D / Paranoia gamer. I also googled (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22fear%20and%20ignorance.%20%20Ignorance %20and%20fear%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=gw) the phrase and only Paranoia references came up, so I don't think there is a contemporary reference. Therefore, I think we've got a good lead.

Given this, it'd be nice to see a student stratification by age band. I haven't done this yet, and it may provide more clues, but in the interim combined with other suspicions, I think EC2 may very well be Gandalf.

I am also posting this to EC_Slayer in the very unlikely chance that you are EC. I'll pass on my updated suspicion list after the expected Slayer & EC carnage of the next few days.

Leela
06-02-2004, 04:00 PM
From Gandalf regarding his post today about Anonymouse, June 2nd 10:16AM

My public post is not a suggestion that you should stake him now. I'm sure you have better possibilities (IMO, Karma Police or possibly Mulan; certainly not 4Sigma; probably not J.T. or Avi or some others I think I sent you as more likely than not to be innocent).

But don't let Anonymouse and other quiet ones stay off the radar screen.


From Ebenzer Kohl, June 2nd 12:06PM

I, and others, look at when the mystery folk pick up their emails. It will move from our Outbox to Sentbox. I, and others, note what time of day you post. I, and others, are aware when people are available to use the Rebel Outpost. I look at writing styles. I look at how well you understand the game.

If I were the Slayer, I would post once every three or four days, which is probably too much but I would enjoy the potential confusion I could create. I would post something (time of day, writing style, or oddity) consistent in every post that would generate unnecessary interest.

If I were the Slayer, I would stake who I thought was EC. I would consider it a given the EC would PM me. I would plan endgame with about 12 students left. Don’t let student dissatisfaction in your slaying cause you concern. If we knew better, then we should lynch the EC without your help.

Who to lynch? Go with your gut. Split up pairs - Mulan or Will Durant would be my first target. This strategy is to generate further discussion if you miss.

I am opposed to targeting quiet students at this time simply for endgame purposes, though if done, I’d rather you do it and not the ghost committee, who can lose credibility and power, which derives from the students.


Even with Gandalf's pm, I like Anonymouse. What are your thoughts? :D :wink:

Leela
06-02-2004, 04:06 PM
In terms of who I am hitting, I am currently leaning toward Anonymouse, with possibilities of Ahow or Sunny. Following this pm, I'll be sending you the messages I have gotten over the last day. Please put this message in the forum, so that I can be filled in on your thoughts on who to hit.

At first I wanted to knock people that are not involved in the game and don't post much (and when they do, post nothing of real meaning) since later in the game they still won't be saying anything, and it will be hard to determine what their thoughts are. Anonymouse has made only two posts since signing up, both of them today when he first voted for Snafu, and then explained why he hasn't posted more. From the other threads I have read, Anonymouse tends to post a lot. In the previous EC game, Anonymouse changed his vote at one point so much, it was compared to "changing his vote as often as he changed his underwear". In this game he has not been doing that, and has changed his posting his habits. In the second post he made today, he implied that he would not be writing much in the future, so I believe I will be slaying him, hopefully to get an EC member (I don't know why he isn't posting anything when he did so much last time- could that be the reason?), but if not, to get a quiet one.

Ahow has only posted three times since signing up, and has not posted at all since the 28th. The thing is, he didn't post in any thread since the 28th, so he may just be away. Still though, the only post where he really mentioned something of thought in the game, is when he expressed interest in running the list of who has voted for what. He apparently never followed up on that. I am wondering if that is a sign that he wants people to think he is involved in the game, but isn't.... Still though, I realize this isn't a strong reason for suspicion. The main reason Ahow is here, is because of only three posts, mostly of little to no substance, over the course of the game.

Sunny is to me the most suspicious person on this board. She is an actuarial student who has already passed a couple of exams, so I know she is smart- the thing is that most of her game-related posts lead to things that would be bad ideas for students to follow. Her private message through suspicions for quite odd reasons. The "death to the students" thing does have me wondering whether she meant to write it or not.... I know some (Gandalf especially) are convinced she is innocent, and if a ghost or two feels the same way, I won't use a slaying turn on her for a long time, if at all.

How about this code- as soon as all the ghosts have had a chance to read this, please post a six digit number in the forum. _ a _ _ _ _ where the blanks are any number, and the "a" (second of the six digits) is the code number meaning the ghosts think

1 = get Anonymouse
2 = get Ahow
3 = get Sunny
4 = ghosts have no opinion, whoever I think is EC or suspicious is fine
5 = get someone else (If doing this, follow the first six digit number by another six digit one, with the person you would MUCH rather me hit, using the same code from last time, where numbers 4 and 5 of the six digits are the important ones, and the top person is number 14, etc.)

In the future, I like this setup, where I tell you who I will hit and you tell me who you will before it happens. This way, I can continue to protect the slayer (me) from you, and you all can fill me in on things I may not be privy to.

I will wait until this evening if I don't see a number before that. At that point, I'll probably just go with Anonymouse.

I'm just not sure what to tell him. I don't think Anonymouse or Ahow are EC just because I don't think EC would be that quiet. Sunny could be EC, but we might find out more info if we let her live a little longer. SSH, snafu, your thoughts?

snafu
06-02-2004, 04:30 PM
I still think Sunny and jadzia are the EC. I've provided my evidence in numerous previous posts.

I am in the same spot as Lella, I think Sunny is guilty but don't know whether or not we gain more information by lynching her or observing her. Maybe we should we post to the students that we have identified a potential EC and are considering lynching or observing and let the students vote on whether we should lynch or observe?

Leela
06-02-2004, 04:47 PM
Did you notice this (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=559104&highlight=#559104) post by EC 1 in the Survey section?

snafu
06-02-2004, 05:34 PM
I have pulled together all of the student posts since the start of the game. You can copy and past into MSExcel and then sort and analyze to your heart's content.

LINE POSTER POSTTIME
0001 4sigma 05/25/2004 09:06 AM
0002 4sigma 05/25/2004 08:34 AM
0003 4sigma 05/24/2004 08:53 PM
0004 4sigma 05/22/2004 06:29 AM
0005 4sigma 05/21/2004 11:56 PM
0006 4sigma 05/21/2004 11:35 PM
0007 4sigma 05/18/2004 10:27 PM
0008 4sigma 05/18/2004 12:45 AM
0009 4sigma 05/18/2004 12:22 AM
0010 4sigma 05/17/2004 08:07 PM
0011 4sigma 05/15/2004 07:45 AM
0012 4sigma 05/14/2004 12:29 AM
0013 4sigma 05/13/2004 10:03 PM
0014 4sigma 05/13/2004 09:49 PM
0015 4sigma 05/13/2004 07:35 PM
0016 4sigma 05/13/2004 07:03 PM
0017 4sigma 05/13/2004 06:28 PM
0018 4sigma 05/12/2004 10:44 PM
0019 4sigma 05/11/2004 07:21 PM
0020 4sigma 05/11/2004 05:52 PM
0021 4sigma 05/10/2004 10:35 PM
0022 4sigma 05/10/2004 08:24 PM
0023 4sigma 05/06/2004 06:02 PM
0024 4sigma 05/01/2004 08:21 AM
0025 4sigma 05/01/2004 07:21 AM
0026 ahow 05/24/2004 03:47 PM
0027 ahow 05/24/2004 03:33 PM
0028 ahow 05/20/2004 02:22 PM
0029 ahow 05/19/2004 05:15 PM
0030 ahow 05/19/2004 05:09 PM
0031 ahow 05/19/2004 04:10 PM
0032 ahow 05/19/2004 04:01 PM
0033 ahow 05/19/2004 03:54 PM
0034 ahow 05/19/2004 03:37 PM
0035 ahow 05/19/2004 03:22 PM
0036 ahow 05/18/2004 02:34 PM
0037 ahow 05/18/2004 02:17 PM
0038 ahow 05/17/2004 10:56 PM
0039 ahow 05/17/2004 10:52 PM
0040 ahow 05/17/2004 06:23 PM
0041 ahow 05/17/2004 05:52 PM
0042 ahow 05/17/2004 05:48 PM
0043 ahow 05/12/2004 09:31 PM
0044 ahow 05/07/2004 12:21 AM
0045 ahow 05/06/2004 05:47 AM
0046 ahow 05/06/2004 05:42 AM
0047 ahow 05/06/2004 05:40 AM
0048 ahow 05/06/2004 02:29 AM
0049 ahow 05/06/2004 01:07 AM
0050 ahow 05/06/2004 12:46 AM
0051 All Clear 05/20/2004 04:08 PM
0052 All Clear 05/19/2004 05:13 PM
0053 All Clear 05/18/2004 09:00 PM
0054 All Clear 05/16/2004 07:48 AM
0055 All Clear 05/14/2004 05:57 AM
0056 All Clear 05/14/2004 05:50 AM
0057 All Clear 05/14/2004 05:31 AM
0058 All Clear 05/13/2004 07:55 PM
0059 All Clear 05/10/2004 04:48 AM
0060 All Clear 05/07/2004 06:34 PM
0061 All Clear 05/05/2004 05:42 PM
0062 All Clear 05/05/2004 05:30 PM
0063 All Clear 05/04/2004 04:50 AM
0064 All Clear 05/02/2004 02:24 AM
0065 All Clear 05/01/2004 12:16 AM
0066 All Clear 04/30/2004 04:38 PM
0067 All Clear 04/30/2004 04:28 PM
0068 All Clear 04/25/2004 05:59 PM
0069 All Clear 04/25/2004 05:49 PM
0070 All Clear 04/24/2004 12:12 AM
0071 All Clear 04/23/2004 04:49 PM
0072 All Clear 04/22/2004 01:47 AM
0073 All Clear 04/22/2004 01:37 AM
0074 All Clear 04/21/2004 11:37 PM
0075 All Clear 04/20/2004 05:45 AM
0076 Anonymouse 05/24/2004 01:55 AM
0077 Anonymouse 05/24/2004 01:52 AM
0078 Anonymouse 05/21/2004 04:17 AM
0079 Anonymouse 05/20/2004 03:39 AM
0080 Anonymouse 05/20/2004 03:36 AM
0081 Anonymouse 05/14/2004 05:54 PM
0082 Anonymouse 05/14/2004 03:00 PM
0083 Anonymouse 05/14/2004 06:52 AM
0084 Anonymouse 05/13/2004 10:42 PM
0085 Anonymouse 05/13/2004 09:37 PM
0086 Anonymouse 05/13/2004 07:59 PM
0087 Anonymouse 05/13/2004 07:25 PM
0088 Anonymouse 05/12/2004 06:41 PM
0089 Anonymouse 05/12/2004 04:51 PM
0090 Anonymouse 05/12/2004 01:58 PM
0091 Anonymouse 05/12/2004 04:42 AM
0092 Anonymouse 05/12/2004 01:50 AM
0093 Anonymouse 05/11/2004 06:49 PM
0094 Anonymouse 05/11/2004 06:36 PM
0095 Anonymouse 05/11/2004 02:57 PM
0096 Anonymouse 05/11/2004 07:31 AM
0097 Anonymouse 05/10/2004 10:26 PM
0098 Anonymouse 05/10/2004 10:23 PM
0099 Anonymouse 05/10/2004 08:56 PM
0100 Anonymouse 05/10/2004 03:20 PM
0101 Asynchronous 05/25/2004 03:42 PM
0102 Asynchronous 05/25/2004 03:27 PM
0103 Asynchronous 05/25/2004 03:22 PM
0104 Asynchronous 05/20/2004 04:32 PM
0105 Asynchronous 05/13/2004 09:09 PM
0106 Asynchronous 05/06/2004 09:54 PM
0107 Asynchronous 05/05/2004 03:32 AM
0108 Asynchronous 04/23/2004 04:29 PM
0109 Asynchronous 04/23/2004 04:25 PM
0110 Asynchronous 04/23/2004 04:23 PM
0111 Asynchronous 04/22/2004 07:07 PM
0112 Asynchronous 04/22/2004 03:12 PM
0113 Asynchronous 04/21/2004 06:31 PM
0114 Asynchronous 04/21/2004 04:08 PM
0115 Asynchronous 04/19/2004 08:11 PM
0116 Asynchronous 04/19/2004 03:38 PM
0117 Asynchronous 04/16/2004 07:54 PM
0118 Asynchronous 04/16/2004 03:40 PM
0119 Asynchronous 04/15/2004 08:27 PM
0120 Asynchronous 04/15/2004 03:42 AM
0121 Asynchronous 04/15/2004 03:20 AM
0122 Asynchronous 04/14/2004 07:23 PM
0123 Asynchronous 04/08/2004 08:53 PM
0124 Asynchronous 04/07/2004 03:47 PM
0125 Asynchronous 04/06/2004 11:17 PM
0126 Avi 05/25/2004 04:51 PM
0127 Avi 05/25/2004 03:50 PM
0128 Avi 05/25/2004 03:18 PM
0129 Avi 05/25/2004 03:06 PM
0130 Avi 05/25/2004 03:05 PM
0131 Avi 05/25/2004 02:52 PM
0132 Avi 05/25/2004 02:56 AM
0133 Avi 05/25/2004 02:36 AM
0134 Avi 05/25/2004 02:34 AM
0135 Avi 05/25/2004 12:45 AM
0136 Avi 05/24/2004 09:08 PM
0137 Avi 05/24/2004 09:08 PM
0138 Avi 05/24/2004 09:07 PM
0139 Avi 05/24/2004 09:05 PM
0140 Avi 05/24/2004 09:04 PM
0141 Avi 05/24/2004 09:02 PM
0142 Avi 05/24/2004 08:41 PM
0143 Avi 05/24/2004 07:51 PM
0144 Avi 05/24/2004 07:40 PM
0145 Avi 05/24/2004 07:22 PM
0146 Avi 05/24/2004 07:21 PM
0147 Avi 05/24/2004 07:21 PM
0148 Avi 05/24/2004 07:19 PM
0149 Avi 05/24/2004 06:35 PM
0150 Avi 05/24/2004 06:34 PM
0151 Avi 05/24/2004 05:22 PM
0152 Avi 05/24/2004 05:21 PM
0153 Avi 05/24/2004 12:46 AM
0154 Avi 05/24/2004 12:45 AM
0155 Avi 05/23/2004 01:49 AM
0156 Avi 05/23/2004 01:47 AM
0157 Avi 05/23/2004 01:47 AM
0158 Avi 05/23/2004 01:46 AM
0159 Avi 05/23/2004 01:44 AM
0160 Avi 05/23/2004 01:43 AM
0161 Avi 05/23/2004 01:43 AM
0162 Avi 05/21/2004 09:48 PM
0163 Avi 05/21/2004 06:51 PM
0164 Avi 05/21/2004 05:06 PM
0165 Avi 05/21/2004 04:32 PM
0166 Avi 05/21/2004 03:02 PM
0167 Avi 05/21/2004 02:53 AM
0168 Avi 05/21/2004 02:12 AM
0169 Avi 05/20/2004 11:51 PM
0170 Avi 05/20/2004 09:17 PM
0171 Avi 05/20/2004 09:09 PM
0172 Avi 05/20/2004 08:18 PM
0173 Avi 05/20/2004 07:08 PM
0174 Avi 05/20/2004 06:47 PM
0175 Avi 05/20/2004 06:13 PM
0176 BC 05/25/2004 05:52 PM
0177 BC 05/25/2004 05:36 PM
0178 BC 05/24/2004 03:23 PM
0179 BC 05/23/2004 08:10 PM
0180 BC 05/21/2004 04:34 PM
0181 BC 05/21/2004 04:32 PM
0182 BC 05/21/2004 04:32 PM
0183 BC 05/21/2004 04:26 PM
0184 BC 05/21/2004 03:57 PM
0185 BC 05/21/2004 03:53 PM
0186 BC 05/21/2004 03:37 PM
0187 BC 05/21/2004 03:05 PM
0188 BC 05/21/2004 01:43 PM
0189 BC 05/21/2004 01:35 PM
0190 BC 05/14/2004 08:02 PM
0191 BC 05/14/2004 08:01 PM
0192 BC 05/14/2004 05:22 PM
0193 BC 05/14/2004 03:38 PM
0194 BC 05/14/2004 02:26 PM
0195 BC 05/14/2004 02:24 PM
0196 BC 05/14/2004 02:12 PM
0197 BC 05/13/2004 04:39 PM
0198 BC 05/11/2004 08:18 PM
0199 BC 05/11/2004 06:38 PM
0200 BC 05/06/2004 06:05 PM
0201 Butters 05/20/2004 06:24 PM
0202 Butters 05/20/2004 03:54 PM
0203 Butters 05/20/2004 03:08 PM
0204 Butters 05/19/2004 04:55 PM
0205 Butters 05/18/2004 04:40 PM
0206 Butters 05/18/2004 04:04 PM
0207 Butters 05/17/2004 05:48 PM
0208 Butters 05/17/2004 03:30 PM
0209 Butters 05/14/2004 09:03 PM
0210 Butters 05/14/2004 08:54 PM
0211 Butters 05/14/2004 08:51 PM
0212 Butters 05/14/2004 08:36 PM
0213 Butters 05/12/2004 05:53 PM
0214 Butters 05/12/2004 03:20 PM
0215 Butters 05/11/2004 08:49 PM
0216 Butters 05/11/2004 07:23 PM
0217 Butters 04/27/2004 02:36 PM
0218 Butters 04/23/2004 03:35 PM
0219 Butters 04/23/2004 02:14 PM
0220 Butters 04/21/2004 06:16 PM
0221 Butters 04/21/2004 06:03 PM
0222 Butters 04/21/2004 02:17 PM
0223 Butters 04/20/2004 09:05 PM
0224 Butters 04/20/2004 05:23 PM
0225 Butters 04/20/2004 02:30 PM
0226 Cho Da 05/25/2004 05:06 PM
0227 Cho Da 05/25/2004 02:45 PM
0228 Cho Da 05/24/2004 07:43 PM
0229 Cho Da 05/24/2004 07:40 PM
0230 Cho Da 05/24/2004 04:24 PM
0231 Cho Da 05/21/2004 04:48 PM
0232 Cho Da 05/18/2004 03:49 PM
0233 Cho Da 05/18/2004 02:17 PM
0234 Cho Da 05/17/2004 06:10 PM
0235 Cho Da 05/17/2004 06:00 PM
0236 Cho Da 05/14/2004 07:18 PM
0237 Cho Da 05/14/2004 11:58 AM
0238 Cho Da 05/13/2004 06:58 PM
0239 Cho Da 05/13/2004 05:52 PM
0240 Cho Da 05/13/2004 05:47 PM
0241 Cho Da 05/13/2004 12:25 PM
0242 Cho Da 05/11/2004 05:26 PM
0243 Cho Da 05/10/2004 08:22 PM
0244 Cho Da 05/10/2004 06:20 PM
0245 Cho Da 04/23/2004 05:18 PM
0246 Cho Da 04/23/2004 03:20 PM
0247 Cho Da 04/16/2004 10:02 PM
0248 Cho Da 04/16/2004 02:26 AM
0249 Cho Da 04/15/2004 11:16 PM
0250 Cho Da 04/15/2004 09:05 PM
0251 cubedbee 05/25/2004 04:39 PM
0252 cubedbee 05/25/2004 04:31 PM
0253 cubedbee 05/25/2004 03:01 PM
0254 cubedbee 05/25/2004 02:44 PM
0255 cubedbee 05/25/2004 02:18 PM
0256 cubedbee 05/25/2004 02:13 PM
0257 cubedbee 05/25/2004 02:03 PM
0258 cubedbee 05/25/2004 01:43 PM
0259 cubedbee 05/25/2004 10:35 AM
0260 cubedbee 05/25/2004 09:53 AM
0261 cubedbee 05/25/2004 09:43 AM
0262 cubedbee 05/25/2004 09:37 AM
0263 cubedbee 05/25/2004 09:36 AM
0264 cubedbee 05/24/2004 10:09 PM
0265 cubedbee 05/24/2004 10:07 PM
0266 cubedbee 05/24/2004 10:03 PM
0267 cubedbee 05/24/2004 10:00 PM
0268 cubedbee 05/24/2004 08:48 PM
0269 cubedbee 05/24/2004 08:42 PM
0270 cubedbee 05/24/2004 07:01 PM
0271 cubedbee 05/24/2004 06:50 PM
0272 cubedbee 05/24/2004 06:32 PM
0273 cubedbee 05/24/2004 06:16 PM
0274 cubedbee 05/24/2004 05:44 PM
0275 cubedbee 05/24/2004 12:49 PM
0276 cubedbee 05/23/2004 06:58 AM
0277 cubedbee 05/22/2004 12:30 AM
0278 cubedbee 05/22/2004 12:28 AM
0279 cubedbee 05/22/2004 12:27 AM
0280 cubedbee 05/22/2004 12:26 AM
0281 cubedbee 05/22/2004 12:25 AM
0282 cubedbee 05/21/2004 06:41 PM
0283 cubedbee 05/21/2004 04:05 PM
0284 cubedbee 05/21/2004 02:27 PM
0285 cubedbee 05/21/2004 12:29 PM
0286 cubedbee 05/21/2004 11:47 AM
0287 cubedbee 05/21/2004 12:04 AM
0288 cubedbee 05/20/2004 10:29 PM
0289 cubedbee 05/20/2004 10:27 PM
0290 cubedbee 05/19/2004 07:43 PM
0291 cubedbee 05/19/2004 07:42 PM
0292 cubedbee 05/19/2004 02:00 PM
0293 cubedbee 05/19/2004 11:10 AM
0294 cubedbee 05/19/2004 11:08 AM
0295 cubedbee 05/19/2004 11:06 AM
0296 cubedbee 05/19/2004 11:05 AM
0297 cubedbee 05/19/2004 10:54 AM
0298 cubedbee 05/18/2004 03:04 PM
0299 cubedbee 05/18/2004 03:03 PM
0300 cubedbee 05/18/2004 02:57 PM
0301 Ebenezer Kohl 05/25/2004 04:19 PM
0302 Ebenezer Kohl 05/24/2004 08:36 PM
0303 Ebenezer Kohl 05/24/2004 06:18 PM
0304 Ebenezer Kohl 05/24/2004 04:23 PM
0305 Ebenezer Kohl 05/23/2004 10:21 PM
0306 Ebenezer Kohl 05/21/2004 02:45 AM
0307 Ebenezer Kohl 05/20/2004 02:14 PM
0308 Ebenezer Kohl 05/20/2004 02:08 PM
0309 Ebenezer Kohl 05/20/2004 01:48 PM
0310 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 10:24 PM
0311 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 08:58 PM
0312 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 08:49 PM
0313 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 08:44 PM
0314 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 08:37 PM
0315 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 08:21 PM
0316 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 08:03 PM
0317 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 07:55 PM
0318 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 06:54 PM
0319 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 06:24 PM
0320 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 02:38 PM
0321 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 01:57 PM
0322 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 01:54 PM
0323 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 01:35 PM
0324 Ebenezer Kohl 05/19/2004 03:11 AM
0325 Ebenezer Kohl 05/18/2004 09:21 PM
0326 Gandalf 05/25/2004 06:00 PM
0327 Gandalf 05/25/2004 04:31 PM
0328 Gandalf 05/25/2004 03:53 PM
0329 Gandalf 05/25/2004 02:10 PM
0330 Gandalf 05/25/2004 01:24 PM
0331 Gandalf 05/25/2004 01:05 PM
0332 Gandalf 05/25/2004 12:59 PM
0333 Gandalf 05/25/2004 03:10 AM
0334 Gandalf 05/24/2004 06:16 PM
0335 Gandalf 05/24/2004 03:04 PM
0336 Gandalf 05/24/2004 02:45 PM
0337 Gandalf 05/24/2004 02:41 PM
0338 Gandalf 05/23/2004 04:53 PM
0339 Gandalf 05/21/2004 01:33 PM
0340 Gandalf 05/21/2004 12:38 PM
0341 Gandalf 05/20/2004 04:58 PM
0342 Gandalf 05/20/2004 03:09 PM
0343 Gandalf 05/19/2004 07:50 PM
0344 Gandalf 05/19/2004 06:19 PM
0345 Gandalf 05/19/2004 05:20 PM
0346 Gandalf 05/19/2004 05:03 PM
0347 Gandalf 05/19/2004 04:26 PM
0348 Gandalf 05/19/2004 04:03 PM
0349 Gandalf 05/19/2004 03:53 PM
0350 Gandalf 05/19/2004 03:42 PM
0351 Hagbard Celine 05/25/2004 05:57 PM
0352 Hagbard Celine 05/25/2004 03:36 PM
0353 Hagbard Celine 05/25/2004 02:03 PM
0354 Hagbard Celine 05/25/2004 02:01 PM
0355 Hagbard Celine 05/25/2004 02:26 AM
0356 Hagbard Celine 05/24/2004 06:24 PM
0357 Hagbard Celine 05/24/2004 05:12 PM
0358 Hagbard Celine 05/24/2004 01:57 PM
0359 Hagbard Celine 05/24/2004 01:55 PM
0360 Hagbard Celine 05/24/2004 12:31 PM
0361 Hagbard Celine 05/24/2004 11:40 AM
0362 Hagbard Celine 05/22/2004 09:57 PM
0363 Hagbard Celine 05/21/2004 08:20 PM
0364 Hagbard Celine 05/21/2004 06:26 PM
0365 Hagbard Celine 05/21/2004 02:57 PM
0366 Hagbard Celine 05/21/2004 02:49 PM
0367 Hagbard Celine 05/21/2004 01:38 PM
0368 Hagbard Celine 05/21/2004 01:19 PM
0369 Hagbard Celine 05/20/2004 07:37 PM
0370 Hagbard Celine 05/20/2004 12:13 PM
0371 Hagbard Celine 05/20/2004 12:10 PM
0372 Hagbard Celine 05/15/2004 09:44 PM
0373 Hagbard Celine 05/15/2004 09:37 PM
0374 Hagbard Celine 05/15/2004 09:33 PM
0375 Hagbard Celine 05/15/2004 08:28 PM
0376 J.T. 05/25/2004 03:05 PM
0377 J.T. 05/25/2004 02:47 PM
0378 J.T. 05/24/2004 04:23 PM
0379 J.T. 05/24/2004 01:48 PM
0380 J.T. 05/20/2004 12:51 PM
0381 J.T. 05/18/2004 04:39 PM
0382 J.T. 05/18/2004 04:00 PM
0383 J.T. 05/17/2004 06:17 PM
0384 J.T. 05/17/2004 01:08 PM
0385 J.T. 05/14/2004 08:29 PM
0386 J.T. 05/14/2004 06:30 PM
0387 J.T. 05/14/2004 01:39 PM
0388 J.T. 05/13/2004 07:01 PM
0389 J.T. 05/10/2004 01:27 PM
0390 J.T. 05/09/2004 07:56 PM
0391 J.T. 05/05/2004 08:49 PM
0392 J.T. 05/03/2004 02:42 PM
0393 J.T. 05/03/2004 02:41 PM
0394 J.T. 05/03/2004 02:40 PM
0395 J.T. 04/30/2004 08:09 PM
0396 J.T. 04/30/2004 07:54 PM
0397 J.T. 04/30/2004 07:03 PM
0398 J.T. 04/29/2004 04:34 PM
0399 J.T. 04/29/2004 03:53 PM
0400 J.T. 04/28/2004 04:40 PM
0401 Jables 05/25/2004 04:03 PM
0402 Jables 05/25/2004 02:44 PM
0403 Jables 05/25/2004 01:52 PM
0404 Jables 05/25/2004 01:33 PM
0405 Jables 05/25/2004 12:44 AM
0406 Jables 05/25/2004 12:31 AM
0407 Jables 05/25/2004 12:16 AM
0408 Jables 05/25/2004 12:02 AM
0409 Jables 05/24/2004 11:57 PM
0410 Jables 05/24/2004 04:00 PM
0411 Jables 05/24/2004 03:57 PM
0412 Jables 05/24/2004 05:05 AM
0413 Jables 05/24/2004 05:04 AM
0414 Jables 05/24/2004 03:12 AM
0415 Jables 05/24/2004 02:55 AM
0416 Jables 05/24/2004 02:44 AM
0417 Jables 05/24/2004 02:43 AM
0418 Jables 05/24/2004 02:39 AM
0419 Jables 05/24/2004 02:20 AM
0420 Jables 05/24/2004 02:15 AM
0421 Jables 05/24/2004 02:12 AM
0422 Jables 05/24/2004 02:06 AM
0423 Jables 05/24/2004 01:58 AM
0424 Jables 05/24/2004 01:51 AM
0425 Jables 05/24/2004 01:45 AM
0426 Jables 05/21/2004 03:35 AM
0427 Jables 05/21/2004 02:23 AM
0428 Jables 05/21/2004 02:21 AM
0429 Jables 05/21/2004 02:17 AM
0430 Jables 05/21/2004 02:14 AM
0431 Jables 05/21/2004 02:04 AM
0432 Jables 05/21/2004 01:38 AM
0433 Jables 05/21/2004 01:37 AM
0434 Jables 05/21/2004 01:33 AM
0435 Jables 05/21/2004 01:27 AM
0436 Jables 05/21/2004 01:19 AM
0437 Jables 05/21/2004 01:18 AM
0438 Jables 05/21/2004 01:14 AM
0439 Jables 05/21/2004 01:10 AM
0440 Jables 05/21/2004 01:05 AM
0441 Jables 05/21/2004 01:03 AM
0442 Jables 05/21/2004 12:58 AM
0443 Jables 05/21/2004 12:54 AM
0444 Jables 05/21/2004 12:42 AM
0445 Jables 05/21/2004 12:38 AM
0446 Jables 05/21/2004 12:35 AM
0447 Jables 05/21/2004 12:33 AM
0448 Jables 05/21/2004 12:30 AM
0449 Jables 05/21/2004 12:28 AM
0450 Jables 05/21/2004 12:25 AM
0451 jadzia 05/25/2004 05:22 PM
0452 jadzia 05/25/2004 05:08 PM
0453 jadzia 05/25/2004 05:05 PM
0454 jadzia 05/25/2004 02:39 PM
0455 jadzia 05/25/2004 01:41 AM
0456 jadzia 05/24/2004 07:49 PM
0457 jadzia 05/24/2004 07:35 PM
0458 jadzia 05/24/2004 07:28 PM
0459 jadzia 05/24/2004 07:15 PM
0460 jadzia 05/24/2004 06:42 PM
0461 jadzia 05/24/2004 06:39 PM
0462 jadzia 05/24/2004 06:31 PM
0463 jadzia 05/24/2004 01:47 AM
0464 jadzia 05/23/2004 06:46 PM
0465 jadzia 05/21/2004 06:18 PM
0466 jadzia 05/21/2004 02:27 PM
0467 jadzia 05/20/2004 09:19 PM
0468 jadzia 05/20/2004 09:11 PM
0469 jadzia 05/20/2004 08:52 PM
0470 jadzia 05/20/2004 12:42 AM
0471 jadzia 05/20/2004 12:41 AM
0472 jadzia 05/20/2004 12:36 AM
0473 jadzia 05/20/2004 12:31 AM
0474 jadzia 05/19/2004 11:26 PM
0475 jadzia 05/19/2004 12:41 AM
0476 Kaput Shakur 05/25/2004 04:52 PM
0477 Kaput Shakur 05/24/2004 04:18 PM
0478 Kaput Shakur 05/24/2004 03:27 PM
0479 Kaput Shakur 05/24/2004 03:20 PM
0480 Kaput Shakur 05/20/2004 08:57 PM
0481 Kaput Shakur 05/20/2004 08:55 PM
0482 Kaput Shakur 05/18/2004 03:30 PM
0483 Kaput Shakur 05/18/2004 02:27 PM
0484 Kaput Shakur 05/14/2004 07:42 PM
0485 Kaput Shakur 05/14/2004 03:14 PM
0486 Kaput Shakur 05/13/2004 02:08 PM
0487 Kaput Shakur 05/10/2004 04:11 PM
0488 Kaput Shakur 05/03/2004 03:46 PM
0489 Kaput Shakur 04/29/2004 04:06 PM
0490 Kaput Shakur 04/29/2004 01:57 PM
0491 Kaput Shakur 04/27/2004 09:14 PM
0492 Kaput Shakur 04/16/2004 04:37 PM
0493 Kaput Shakur 04/15/2004 09:03 PM
0494 Kaput Shakur 04/15/2004 07:22 PM
0495 Kaput Shakur 04/15/2004 03:29 PM
0496 Kaput Shakur 04/14/2004 07:46 PM
0497 Kaput Shakur 04/13/2004 08:32 PM
0498 Kaput Shakur 04/13/2004 08:12 PM
0499 Kaput Shakur 04/13/2004 07:48 PM
0500 Kaput Shakur 04/13/2004 07:11 PM
0501 karma police 05/25/2004 04:03 PM
0502 karma police 05/25/2004 03:43 PM
0503 karma police 05/25/2004 03:33 PM
0504 karma police 05/25/2004 03:20 PM
0505 karma police 05/25/2004 03:07 PM
0506 karma police 05/25/2004 03:06 PM
0507 karma police 05/25/2004 03:04 PM
0508 karma police 05/25/2004 02:38 PM
0509 karma police 05/25/2004 02:29 PM
0510 karma police 05/25/2004 02:28 PM
0511 karma police 05/25/2004 02:16 PM
0512 karma police 05/25/2004 01:58 PM
0513 karma police 05/25/2004 01:37 PM
0514 karma police 05/25/2004 12:39 PM
0515 karma police 05/25/2004 12:27 PM
0516 karma police 05/25/2004 03:14 AM
0517 karma police 05/25/2004 03:11 AM
0518 karma police 05/25/2004 01:13 AM
0519 karma police 05/25/2004 01:09 AM
0520 karma police 05/25/2004 01:07 AM
0521 karma police 05/25/2004 12:58 AM
0522 karma police 05/25/2004 12:52 AM
0523 karma police 05/24/2004 09:09 PM
0524 karma police 05/24/2004 08:40 PM
0525 karma police 05/24/2004 08:37 PM
0526 karma police 05/24/2004 08:32 PM
0527 karma police 05/24/2004 08:28 PM
0528 karma police 05/24/2004 08:24 PM
0529 karma police 05/24/2004 08:21 PM
0530 karma police 05/24/2004 08:20 PM
0531 karma police 05/24/2004 08:19 PM
0532 karma police 05/24/2004 07:47 PM
0533 karma police 05/24/2004 07:37 PM
0534 karma police 05/24/2004 07:37 PM
0535 karma police 05/24/2004 07:36 PM
0536 karma police 05/24/2004 07:35 PM
0537 karma police 05/24/2004 07:34 PM
0538 karma police 05/24/2004 07:31 PM
0539 karma police 05/24/2004 07:21 PM
0540 karma police 05/24/2004 07:20 PM
0541 karma police 05/24/2004 07:19 PM
0542 karma police 05/24/2004 07:12 PM
0543 karma police 05/24/2004 07:10 PM
0544 karma police 05/24/2004 07:06 PM
0545 karma police 05/24/2004 06:48 PM
0546 karma police 05/24/2004 06:35 PM
0547 karma police 05/24/2004 06:32 PM
0548 karma police 05/24/2004 06:14 PM
0549 karma police 05/24/2004 06:12 PM
0550 karma police 05/24/2004 06:03 PM
0551 karma police 05/24/2004 05:53 PM
0552 karma police 05/24/2004 05:41 PM
0553 karma police 05/24/2004 03:43 PM
0554 karma police 05/24/2004 03:40 PM
0555 karma police 05/24/2004 03:37 PM
0556 karma police 05/24/2004 03:17 PM
0557 karma police 05/24/2004 03:16 PM
0558 karma police 05/24/2004 03:11 PM
0559 karma police 05/24/2004 02:52 PM
0560 karma police 05/24/2004 02:45 PM
0561 karma police 05/24/2004 02:39 PM
0562 karma police 05/24/2004 02:34 PM
0563 karma police 05/24/2004 02:33 PM
0564 karma police 05/24/2004 02:27 PM
0565 karma police 05/24/2004 02:25 PM
0566 karma police 05/24/2004 02:21 PM
0567 karma police 05/24/2004 02:08 PM
0568 karma police 05/24/2004 01:20 PM
0569 karma police 05/24/2004 12:45 AM
0570 karma police 05/24/2004 12:44 AM
0571 karma police 05/23/2004 10:27 PM
0572 karma police 05/23/2004 10:26 PM
0573 karma police 05/23/2004 10:17 PM
0574 karma police 05/23/2004 10:16 PM
0575 karma police 05/23/2004 10:15 PM
0576 Kenshiro 05/25/2004 05:09 PM
0577 Kenshiro 05/25/2004 03:20 PM
0578 Kenshiro 05/25/2004 11:27 AM
0579 Kenshiro 05/17/2004 05:53 PM
0580 Kenshiro 05/14/2004 09:49 PM
0581 Kenshiro 05/13/2004 07:52 PM
0582 Kenshiro 05/10/2004 05:16 PM
0583 Kenshiro 05/10/2004 03:34 PM
0584 Kenshiro 05/01/2004 02:21 AM
0585 Kenshiro 04/30/2004 06:52 PM
0586 Kenshiro 04/29/2004 08:40 PM
0587 Kenshiro 04/21/2004 08:05 PM
0588 Kenshiro 04/18/2004 01:15 AM
0589 Kenshiro 04/14/2004 09:13 PM
0590 Kenshiro 04/14/2004 01:05 PM
0591 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 09:45 PM
0592 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 09:23 PM
0593 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 08:15 PM
0594 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 05:09 PM
0595 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 03:52 PM
0596 Kenshiro 04/10/2004 12:16 AM
0597 Kenshiro 04/01/2004 12:09 AM
0598 Kenshiro 04/01/2004 12:06 AM
0599 Kenshiro 03/31/2004 11:41 PM
0600 Kenshiro 03/31/2004 10:20 PM
0601 Leela 05/25/2004 04:44 PM
0602 Leela 05/25/2004 02:41 PM
0603 Leela 05/25/2004 01:15 PM
0604 Leela 05/25/2004 01:10 PM
0605 Leela 05/24/2004 08:24 PM
0606 Leela 05/24/2004 08:22 PM
0607 Leela 05/24/2004 04:14 PM
0608 Leela 05/18/2004 10:22 PM
0609 Macroman 05/25/2004 11:43 AM
0610 Macroman 05/25/2004 02:18 AM
0611 Macroman 05/25/2004 12:48 AM
0612 Macroman 05/24/2004 03:35 AM
0613 Macroman 05/23/2004 11:36 PM
0614 Macroman 05/23/2004 04:29 PM
0615 Macroman 05/22/2004 02:58 PM
0616 Macroman 05/20/2004 11:38 PM
0617 Macroman 05/20/2004 02:54 AM
0618 Macroman 05/20/2004 02:09 AM
0619 Macroman 05/19/2004 02:14 AM
0620 Macroman 05/15/2004 09:31 PM
0621 Macroman 05/15/2004 07:39 AM
0622 Macroman 05/15/2004 05:16 AM
0623 Macroman 05/15/2004 04:43 AM
0624 Macroman 05/15/2004 04:19 AM
0625 Macroman 05/15/2004 04:17 AM
0626 Macroman 05/15/2004 03:56 AM
0627 Macroman 05/13/2004 02:52 AM
0628 Macroman 05/12/2004 05:50 PM
0629 Macroman 05/12/2004 05:44 PM
0630 Macroman 05/12/2004 04:46 PM
0631 Macroman 05/12/2004 05:05 AM
0632 Macroman 05/10/2004 11:30 PM
0633 Macroman 05/09/2004 09:40 PM
0634 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 06:08 PM
0635 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 06:02 PM
0636 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 05:57 PM
0637 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 05:54 PM
0638 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 05:21 PM
0639 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 03:55 PM
0640 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 03:34 PM
0641 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 03:30 PM
0642 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 01:51 PM
0643 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 12:27 PM
0644 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 12:20 PM
0645 Maine-iac 05/25/2004 12:18 PM
0646 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 08:38 PM
0647 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 08:17 PM
0648 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 07:29 PM
0649 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 06:55 PM
0650 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 03:24 PM
0651 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 02:57 PM
0652 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 02:55 PM
0653 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 02:49 PM
0654 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 02:41 PM
0655 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 02:11 PM
0656 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 01:18 PM
0657 Maine-iac 05/24/2004 12:15 PM
0658 Maine-iac 05/21/2004 07:53 PM
0659 Mulan 05/25/2004 06:17 PM
0660 Mulan 05/25/2004 06:07 PM
0661 Mulan 05/25/2004 05:36 PM
0662 Mulan 05/25/2004 04:00 PM
0663 Mulan 05/25/2004 02:43 PM
0664 Mulan 05/25/2004 02:13 PM
0665 Mulan 05/24/2004 10:14 PM
0666 Mulan 05/24/2004 09:18 PM
0667 Mulan 05/24/2004 08:57 PM
0668 Mulan 05/24/2004 03:19 PM
0669 Mulan 05/24/2004 03:14 PM
0670 Mulan 05/24/2004 03:03 PM
0671 Mulan 05/21/2004 07:55 PM
0672 Mulan 05/21/2004 06:10 PM
0673 Mulan 05/21/2004 06:06 PM
0674 Mulan 05/21/2004 03:53 PM
0675 Mulan 05/21/2004 03:44 PM
0676 Mulan 05/21/2004 03:36 PM
0677 Mulan 05/21/2004 03:25 PM
0678 Mulan 05/21/2004 02:56 PM
0679 Mulan 05/21/2004 02:44 PM
0680 Mulan 05/21/2004 02:40 PM
0681 Mulan 05/20/2004 06:35 PM
0682 Mulan 05/20/2004 06:03 PM
0683 Mulan 05/20/2004 04:27 PM
0684 Oblomov 05/25/2004 03:07 PM
0685 Oblomov 05/25/2004 03:05 PM
0686 Oblomov 05/25/2004 02:54 PM
0687 Oblomov 05/25/2004 02:52 PM
0688 Oblomov 05/25/2004 02:49 PM
0689 Oblomov 05/25/2004 02:44 PM
0690 Oblomov 05/25/2004 02:38 PM
0691 Oblomov 05/25/2004 02:30 PM
0692 Oblomov 05/25/2004 12:32 AM
0693 Oblomov 05/24/2004 11:45 PM
0694 Oblomov 05/24/2004 11:26 PM
0695 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:40 PM
0696 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:38 PM
0697 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:36 PM
0698 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:31 PM
0699 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:27 PM
0700 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:26 PM
0701 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:23 PM
0702 Oblomov 05/24/2004 02:01 PM
0703 Oblomov 05/24/2004 01:50 PM
0704 Oblomov 05/24/2004 12:21 PM
0705 Oblomov 05/24/2004 09:15 AM
0706 Oblomov 05/24/2004 08:31 AM
0707 Oblomov 05/24/2004 03:14 AM
0708 Oblomov 05/24/2004 03:12 AM
0709 Oblomov 05/24/2004 03:10 AM
0710 Oblomov 05/24/2004 03:08 AM
0711 Oblomov 05/24/2004 01:56 AM
0712 Oblomov 05/23/2004 10:36 PM
0713 Oblomov 05/23/2004 10:26 PM
0714 Oblomov 05/23/2004 10:17 PM
0715 Oblomov 05/23/2004 10:15 PM
0716 Oblomov 05/23/2004 10:07 PM
0717 Oblomov 05/23/2004 02:14 PM
0718 Oblomov 05/23/2004 02:06 PM
0719 Oblomov 05/23/2004 01:53 PM
0720 Oblomov 05/23/2004 09:14 AM
0721 Oblomov 05/22/2004 12:02 AM
0722 Oblomov 05/21/2004 11:59 PM
0723 Oblomov 05/21/2004 11:47 PM
0724 Oblomov 05/21/2004 11:02 PM
0725 Oblomov 05/21/2004 11:00 PM
0726 Oblomov 05/21/2004 10:56 PM
0727 Oblomov 05/21/2004 10:50 PM
0728 Oblomov 05/21/2004 10:47 PM
0729 Oblomov 05/21/2004 10:39 PM
0730 Oblomov 05/21/2004 10:35 PM
0731 Oblomov 05/21/2004 12:55 PM
0732 Oblomov 05/21/2004 12:47 PM
0733 Oblomov 05/21/2004 12:38 PM
0734 RedSoxFan 05/25/2004 02:11 AM
0735 RedSoxFan 05/24/2004 04:04 PM
0736 RedSoxFan 05/24/2004 03:43 PM
0737 RedSoxFan 05/24/2004 01:39 PM
0738 RedSoxFan 05/24/2004 01:30 PM
0739 RedSoxFan 05/24/2004 02:06 AM
0740 RedSoxFan 05/23/2004 09:57 PM
0741 RedSoxFan 05/23/2004 08:43 PM
0742 RedSoxFan 05/23/2004 08:30 PM
0743 RedSoxFan 05/23/2004 12:05 AM
0744 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 11:39 PM
0745 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 05:22 PM
0746 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 04:38 PM
0747 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 04:26 PM
0748 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 04:23 PM
0749 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 04:20 PM
0750 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 03:51 PM
0751 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 03:32 AM
0752 RedSoxFan 05/22/2004 03:32 AM
0753 RedSoxFan 05/21/2004 09:26 PM
0754 RedSoxFan 05/21/2004 09:07 PM
0755 RedSoxFan 05/21/2004 06:44 PM
0756 RedSoxFan 05/21/2004 01:30 PM
0757 RedSoxFan 05/21/2004 12:59 PM
0758 RedSoxFan 05/21/2004 03:06 AM
0759 Rocky 05/25/2004 06:15 PM
0760 Rocky 05/25/2004 06:09 PM
0761 Rocky 05/25/2004 06:02 PM
0762 Rocky 05/25/2004 06:00 PM
0763 Rocky 05/25/2004 05:48 PM
0764 Rocky 05/25/2004 05:44 PM
0765 Rocky 05/25/2004 05:31 PM
0766 Rocky 05/25/2004 05:29 PM
0767 Rocky 05/25/2004 03:59 PM
0768 Rocky 05/25/2004 03:52 PM
0769 Rocky 05/25/2004 02:15 PM
0770 Rocky 05/25/2004 02:11 PM
0771 Rocky 05/25/2004 02:08 PM
0772 Rocky 05/25/2004 01:45 PM
0773 Rocky 05/24/2004 08:51 PM
0774 Rocky 05/24/2004 08:47 PM
0775 Rocky 05/24/2004 02:18 PM
0776 Rocky 05/24/2004 01:16 PM
0777 Rocky 05/24/2004 01:13 PM
0778 Rocky 05/24/2004 01:10 PM
0779 Rocky 05/21/2004 09:07 PM
0780 Rocky 05/21/2004 08:43 PM
0781 Rocky 05/21/2004 08:32 PM
0782 Rocky 05/21/2004 08:30 PM
0783 Rocky 05/21/2004 08:00 PM
0784 stu 05/23/2004 05:00 PM
0785 stu 05/19/2004 02:15 AM
0786 stu 05/16/2004 10:29 PM
0787 stu 05/11/2004 02:12 AM
0788 stu 05/09/2004 10:13 PM
0789 stu 05/09/2004 02:13 AM
0790 stu 05/08/2004 10:51 PM
0791 stu 05/08/2004 01:35 AM
0792 stu 05/07/2004 03:09 AM
0793 stu 05/06/2004 10:36 PM
0794 stu 04/30/2004 11:33 PM
0795 stu 04/30/2004 04:00 PM
0796 stu 04/28/2004 09:41 PM
0797 stu 04/26/2004 10:21 PM
0798 stu 04/26/2004 05:31 AM
0799 stu 04/24/2004 11:16 PM
0800 stu 04/24/2004 05:37 AM
0801 stu 04/24/2004 04:46 AM
0802 stu 04/24/2004 03:58 AM
0803 stu 04/23/2004 10:00 PM
0804 stu 04/21/2004 10:54 PM
0805 stu 04/18/2004 10:53 PM
0806 stu 04/18/2004 10:18 PM
0807 stu 04/14/2004 06:57 PM
0808 stu 04/14/2004 04:10 PM
0809 Sunny 05/25/2004 06:30 PM
0810 Sunny 05/25/2004 06:23 PM
0811 Sunny 05/25/2004 06:04 PM
0812 Sunny 05/25/2004 06:03 PM
0813 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:55 PM
0814 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:51 PM
0815 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:46 PM
0816 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:41 PM
0817 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:33 PM
0818 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:32 PM
0819 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:29 PM
0820 Sunny 05/25/2004 05:27 PM
0821 Sunny 05/25/2004 04:47 PM
0822 Sunny 05/25/2004 03:21 PM
0823 Sunny 05/25/2004 02:32 PM
0824 Sunny 05/24/2004 06:25 PM
0825 Sunny 05/24/2004 05:45 PM
0826 Sunny 05/24/2004 03:57 PM
0827 Sunny 05/24/2004 02:47 PM
0828 Sunny 05/24/2004 02:45 PM
0829 Sunny 05/24/2004 02:35 PM
0830 Sunny 05/24/2004 02:21 PM
0831 Sunny 05/21/2004 11:36 PM
0832 Sunny 05/21/2004 04:33 PM
0833 Sunny 05/21/2004 03:58 PM
0834 thing 05/25/2004 05:44 PM
0835 thing 05/25/2004 04:12 PM
0836 thing 05/24/2004 08:47 PM
0837 thing 05/24/2004 08:42 PM
0838 thing 05/24/2004 08:21 PM
0839 thing 05/24/2004 03:57 PM
0840 thing 05/24/2004 03:11 PM
0841 thing 05/24/2004 12:08 AM
0842 thing 05/21/2004 11:34 PM
0843 thing 05/21/2004 09:02 PM
0844 thing 05/21/2004 06:12 PM
0845 thing 05/21/2004 06:06 PM
0846 thing 05/21/2004 05:42 PM
0847 thing 05/21/2004 05:36 PM
0848 thing 05/19/2004 09:31 PM
0849 thing 05/19/2004 09:26 PM
0850 thing 05/19/2004 04:44 PM
0851 thing 05/19/2004 03:21 AM
0852 thing 05/18/2004 11:13 PM
0853 thing 05/18/2004 05:39 PM
0854 thing 05/18/2004 02:07 AM
0855 thing 05/18/2004 01:49 AM
0856 thing 05/18/2004 01:42 AM
0857 thing 05/14/2004 11:49 PM
0858 thing 05/14/2004 10:38 PM
0859 Traina. 05/25/2004 04:49 PM
0860 Traina. 05/25/2004 04:45 PM
0861 Traina. 05/24/2004 02:19 PM
0862 Traina. 05/24/2004 02:15 PM
0863 Traina. 05/24/2004 02:11 PM
0864 Traina. 05/24/2004 02:09 PM
0865 Traina. 05/24/2004 12:53 PM
0866 Traina. 05/24/2004 12:24 PM
0867 Traina. 05/24/2004 12:24 PM
0868 Traina. 05/18/2004 10:09 PM
0869 Traina. 05/14/2004 06:43 PM
0870 Traina. 05/14/2004 04:08 AM
0871 Traina. 05/14/2004 04:06 AM
0872 Traina. 05/14/2004 04:00 AM
0873 Traina. 05/13/2004 12:35 PM
0874 Traina. 05/13/2004 10:54 AM
0875 Traina. 05/13/2004 10:51 AM
0876 Traina. 05/13/2004 10:50 AM
0877 Traina. 05/13/2004 10:49 AM
0878 Traina. 05/12/2004 01:00 PM
0879 Traina. 05/12/2004 12:59 PM
0880 Traina. 05/12/2004 11:32 AM
0881 Traina. 05/11/2004 11:38 AM
0882 Traina. 05/11/2004 11:35 AM
0883 Traina. 05/11/2004 11:34 AM
0884 Ultimate Anyone? 05/25/2004 02:16 PM
0885 Ultimate Anyone? 05/25/2004 01:20 PM
0886 Ultimate Anyone? 05/24/2004 04:10 PM
0887 Ultimate Anyone? 05/24/2004 04:02 PM
0888 Ultimate Anyone? 05/24/2004 03:59 PM
0889 Ultimate Anyone? 05/22/2004 04:28 PM
0890 Ultimate Anyone? 05/22/2004 04:24 PM
0891 Ultimate Anyone? 05/22/2004 01:52 PM
0892 Ultimate Anyone? 05/22/2004 04:32 AM
0893 Ultimate Anyone? 05/21/2004 08:34 PM
0894 Ultimate Anyone? 05/21/2004 04:00 PM
0895 Ultimate Anyone? 05/18/2004 04:26 PM
0896 Ultimate Anyone? 05/18/2004 02:34 PM
0897 Ultimate Anyone? 05/17/2004 01:43 AM
0898 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 11:28 PM
0899 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 10:22 PM
0900 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 09:33 PM
0901 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 09:18 PM
0902 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 08:44 PM
0903 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 08:13 PM
0904 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 08:03 PM
0905 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 03:44 AM
0906 Ultimate Anyone? 05/14/2004 03:32 AM
0907 Ultimate Anyone? 05/13/2004 07:51 PM
0908 Ultimate Anyone? 05/13/2004 07:49 PM
0909 Werewolf 05/25/2004 04:04 AM
0910 Werewolf 05/25/2004 04:01 AM
0911 Werewolf 05/25/2004 04:00 AM
0912 Werewolf 05/25/2004 03:58 AM
0913 Werewolf 05/24/2004 05:06 AM
0914 Werewolf 05/24/2004 05:05 AM
0915 Werewolf 05/24/2004 05:01 AM
0916 Werewolf 05/23/2004 07:48 AM
0917 Werewolf 05/22/2004 04:16 AM
0918 Werewolf 05/18/2004 05:53 AM
0919 Werewolf 05/18/2004 05:52 AM
0920 Werewolf 05/18/2004 05:51 AM
0921 Werewolf 05/18/2004 05:50 AM
0922 Werewolf 05/18/2004 05:46 AM
0923 Werewolf 05/18/2004 05:43 AM
0924 Werewolf 05/15/2004 05:01 AM
0925 Werewolf 05/15/2004 04:54 AM
0926 Werewolf 05/15/2004 04:32 AM
0927 Werewolf 05/12/2004 05:13 AM
0928 Werewolf 05/12/2004 02:55 AM
0929 Werewolf 05/12/2004 02:54 AM
0930 Werewolf 05/12/2004 01:17 AM
0931 Werewolf 05/12/2004 01:10 AM
0932 Werewolf 05/12/2004 01:10 AM
0933 Werewolf 05/12/2004 12:56 AM
0934 Will Durant 05/25/2004 06:25 PM
0935 Will Durant 05/25/2004 06:25 PM
0936 Will Durant 05/25/2004 06:12 PM
0937 Will Durant 05/25/2004 04:55 PM
0938 Will Durant 05/25/2004 04:48 PM
0939 Will Durant 05/25/2004 04:11 PM
0940 Will Durant 05/25/2004 03:55 PM
0941 Will Durant 05/25/2004 03:51 PM
0942 Will Durant 05/25/2004 03:43 PM
0943 Will Durant 05/25/2004 03:34 PM
0944 Will Durant 05/25/2004 02:54 PM
0945 Will Durant 05/25/2004 01:59 PM
0946 Will Durant 05/25/2004 01:51 PM
0947 Will Durant 05/24/2004 11:31 PM
0948 Will Durant 05/24/2004 11:26 PM
0949 Will Durant 05/24/2004 11:23 PM
0950 Will Durant 05/24/2004 11:21 PM
0951 Will Durant 05/24/2004 10:53 PM
0952 Will Durant 05/24/2004 10:42 PM
0953 Will Durant 05/24/2004 10:28 PM
0954 Will Durant 05/24/2004 10:23 PM
0955 Will Durant 05/24/2004 09:24 PM
0956 Will Durant 05/24/2004 09:22 PM
0957 Will Durant 05/24/2004 07:42 PM
0958 Will Durant 05/24/2004 07:21 PM
0959 Will Durant 05/24/2004 07:14 PM
0960 Will Durant 05/24/2004 07:13 PM
0961 Will Durant 05/24/2004 06:45 PM
0962 Will Durant 05/24/2004 06:43 PM
0963 Will Durant 05/24/2004 06:41 PM
0964 Will Durant 05/24/2004 06:40 PM
0965 Will Durant 05/24/2004 04:49 PM
0966 Will Durant 05/24/2004 04:25 PM
0967 Will Durant 05/24/2004 04:23 PM
0968 Will Durant 05/24/2004 04:21 PM
0969 Will Durant 05/24/2004 03:58 PM
0970 Will Durant 05/24/2004 03:49 PM
0971 Will Durant 05/24/2004 03:44 PM
0972 Will Durant 05/24/2004 03:14 PM
0973 Will Durant 05/24/2004 02:54 PM
0974 Will Durant 05/24/2004 02:50 PM
0975 Will Durant 05/24/2004 02:36 PM
0976 Will Durant 05/24/2004 02:01 PM
0977 Will Durant 05/22/2004 02:41 PM
0978 Will Durant 05/22/2004 12:02 AM
0979 Will Durant 05/22/2004 12:00 AM
0980 Will Durant 05/21/2004 10:48 PM
0981 Will Durant 05/21/2004 06:27 PM
0982 Will Durant 05/21/2004 04:27 PM
0983 Will Durant 05/21/2004 04:21 PM
0984 EC1 05/25/2004 02:31 PM
0985 EC1 05/24/2004 06:11 PM
0986 EC2 05/25/2004 05:25 PM
0987 EC2 05/25/2004 04:33 PM
0988 EC2 05/25/2004 02:48 PM
0989 EC2 05/24/2004 06:28 PM
0990 EC2 05/24/2004 05:20 PM
0991 EC2 05/24/2004 05:04 PM
0992 EC_Slayer 05/24/2004 08:33 PM
0993 EC_Slayer 05/24/2004 06:16 PM
0994 4sigma 06/01/2004 10:48 PM
0995 4sigma 06/01/2004 09:07 PM
0996 4sigma 06/01/2004 08:27 PM
0997 4sigma 06/01/2004 07:07 PM
0998 4sigma 06/01/2004 06:55 PM
0999 4sigma 06/01/2004 06:51 PM
1000 4sigma 06/01/2004 05:58 PM

snafu
06-02-2004, 05:38 PM
And part two since there seems to be a limit on how much you can post in one message
1001 4sigma 06/01/2004 09:56 AM
1002 4sigma 06/01/2004 09:05 AM
1003 4sigma 05/31/2004 10:12 PM
1004 4sigma 05/29/2004 10:24 AM
1005 4sigma 05/29/2004 09:55 AM
1006 4sigma 05/29/2004 07:59 AM
1007 4sigma 05/28/2004 04:32 PM
1008 4sigma 05/28/2004 10:54 AM
1009 4sigma 05/27/2004 09:55 PM
1010 4sigma 05/26/2004 08:59 PM
1011 4sigma 05/26/2004 08:20 PM
1012 4sigma 05/26/2004 06:25 PM
1013 4sigma 05/26/2004 08:48 AM
1014 4sigma 05/25/2004 08:36 PM
1015 4sigma 05/25/2004 07:18 PM
1016 4sigma 05/25/2004 07:17 PM
1017 4sigma 05/25/2004 07:11 PM
1018 4sigma 05/25/2004 06:57 PM
1019 ahow 05/28/2004 05:10 PM
1020 ahow 05/28/2004 05:07 PM
1021 ahow 05/28/2004 04:47 PM
1022 ahow 05/27/2004 09:38 PM
1023 ahow 05/26/2004 02:12 PM
1024 ahow 05/26/2004 02:04 PM
1025 ahow 05/25/2004 09:54 PM
1026 ahow 05/24/2004 03:47 PM
1027 ahow 05/24/2004 03:33 PM
1028 ahow 05/20/2004 02:22 PM
1029 ahow 05/19/2004 05:15 PM
1030 ahow 05/19/2004 05:09 PM
1031 ahow 05/19/2004 04:10 PM
1032 ahow 05/19/2004 04:01 PM
1033 ahow 05/19/2004 03:54 PM
1034 ahow 05/19/2004 03:37 PM
1035 ahow 05/19/2004 03:22 PM
1036 ahow 05/18/2004 02:34 PM
1037 ahow 05/18/2004 02:17 PM
1038 ahow 05/17/2004 10:56 PM
1039 ahow 05/17/2004 10:52 PM
1040 ahow 05/17/2004 06:23 PM
1041 ahow 05/17/2004 05:52 PM
1042 ahow 05/17/2004 05:48 PM
1043 ahow 05/12/2004 09:31 PM
1044 All Clear 06/02/2004 02:22 PM
1045 All Clear 06/02/2004 04:13 AM
1046 All Clear 06/01/2004 10:54 PM
1047 All Clear 05/31/2004 08:44 PM
1048 All Clear 05/30/2004 11:24 PM
1049 All Clear 05/30/2004 11:09 PM
1050 All Clear 05/30/2004 03:13 AM
1051 All Clear 05/28/2004 08:03 PM
1052 All Clear 05/26/2004 12:24 AM
1053 All Clear 05/20/2004 04:08 PM
1054 All Clear 05/19/2004 05:13 PM
1055 All Clear 05/18/2004 09:00 PM
1056 All Clear 05/16/2004 07:48 AM
1057 All Clear 05/14/2004 05:57 AM
1058 All Clear 05/14/2004 05:50 AM
1059 All Clear 05/14/2004 05:31 AM
1060 All Clear 05/13/2004 07:55 PM
1061 All Clear 05/10/2004 04:48 AM
1062 All Clear 05/07/2004 06:34 PM
1063 All Clear 05/05/2004 05:42 PM
1064 All Clear 05/05/2004 05:30 PM
1065 All Clear 05/04/2004 04:50 AM
1066 All Clear 05/02/2004 02:24 AM
1067 All Clear 05/01/2004 12:16 AM
1068 All Clear 04/30/2004 04:38 PM
1069 Anonymouse 06/02/2004 03:44 PM
1070 Anonymouse 06/02/2004 12:51 PM
1071 Anonymouse 05/30/2004 07:06 PM
1072 Anonymouse 05/29/2004 10:54 PM
1073 Anonymouse 05/28/2004 02:10 PM
1074 Anonymouse 05/28/2004 04:05 AM
1075 Anonymouse 05/28/2004 02:22 AM
1076 Anonymouse 05/28/2004 01:04 AM
1077 Anonymouse 05/27/2004 02:34 PM
1078 Anonymouse 05/27/2004 03:42 AM
1079 Anonymouse 05/26/2004 11:32 PM
1080 Anonymouse 05/26/2004 06:48 AM
1081 Anonymouse 05/26/2004 06:45 AM
1082 Anonymouse 05/26/2004 06:31 AM
1083 Anonymouse 05/26/2004 06:24 AM
1084 Anonymouse 05/24/2004 01:55 AM
1085 Anonymouse 05/24/2004 01:52 AM
1086 Anonymouse 05/21/2004 04:17 AM
1087 Anonymouse 05/20/2004 03:39 AM
1088 Anonymouse 05/20/2004 03:36 AM
1089 Anonymouse 05/14/2004 05:54 PM
1090 Anonymouse 05/14/2004 03:00 PM
1091 Anonymouse 05/14/2004 06:52 AM
1092 Anonymouse 05/13/2004 10:42 PM
1093 Anonymouse 05/13/2004 09:37 PM
1094 Asynchronous 06/02/2004 05:18 PM
1095 Asynchronous 06/02/2004 02:27 PM
1096 Asynchronous 05/31/2004 05:34 PM
1097 Asynchronous 05/26/2004 04:18 PM
1098 Asynchronous 05/25/2004 03:42 PM
1099 Asynchronous 05/25/2004 03:27 PM
1100 Asynchronous 05/25/2004 03:22 PM
1101 Asynchronous 05/20/2004 04:32 PM
1102 Asynchronous 05/13/2004 09:09 PM
1103 Asynchronous 05/06/2004 09:54 PM
1104 Asynchronous 05/05/2004 03:32 AM
1105 Asynchronous 04/23/2004 04:29 PM
1106 Asynchronous 04/23/2004 04:25 PM
1107 Asynchronous 04/23/2004 04:23 PM
1108 Asynchronous 04/22/2004 07:07 PM
1109 Asynchronous 04/22/2004 03:12 PM
1110 Asynchronous 04/21/2004 06:31 PM
1111 Asynchronous 04/21/2004 04:08 PM
1112 Asynchronous 04/19/2004 08:11 PM
1113 Asynchronous 04/19/2004 03:38 PM
1114 Asynchronous 04/16/2004 07:54 PM
1115 Asynchronous 04/16/2004 03:40 PM
1116 Asynchronous 04/15/2004 08:27 PM
1117 Asynchronous 04/15/2004 03:42 AM
1118 Asynchronous 04/15/2004 03:20 AM
1119 Avi 06/02/2004 05:34 PM
1120 Avi 06/02/2004 04:52 PM
1121 Avi 06/02/2004 04:51 PM
1122 Avi 06/02/2004 01:25 PM
1123 Avi 06/02/2004 01:23 PM
1124 Avi 06/02/2004 04:38 AM
1125 Avi 06/02/2004 02:57 AM
1126 Avi 06/02/2004 02:00 AM
1127 Avi 06/02/2004 01:27 AM
1128 Avi 06/02/2004 01:13 AM
1129 Avi 06/01/2004 08:14 PM
1130 Avi 06/01/2004 08:13 PM
1131 Avi 06/01/2004 06:06 PM
1132 Avi 06/01/2004 05:54 PM
1133 Avi 06/01/2004 05:52 PM
1134 Avi 06/01/2004 05:45 PM
1135 Avi 06/01/2004 05:39 PM
1136 Avi 06/01/2004 04:45 PM
1137 Avi 06/01/2004 04:43 PM
1138 Avi 06/01/2004 04:35 PM
1139 Avi 06/01/2004 04:17 PM
1140 Avi 06/01/2004 04:16 PM
1141 Avi 06/01/2004 04:06 PM
1142 Avi 06/01/2004 04:03 PM
1143 Avi 06/01/2004 03:53 PM
1144 BC 06/02/2004 04:47 PM
1145 BC 06/02/2004 03:23 PM
1146 BC 06/02/2004 03:15 PM
1147 BC 06/02/2004 03:05 PM
1148 BC 06/02/2004 02:28 PM
1149 BC 06/01/2004 07:55 PM
1150 BC 06/01/2004 07:52 PM
1151 BC 06/01/2004 07:01 PM
1152 BC 06/01/2004 06:57 PM
1153 BC 06/01/2004 06:49 PM
1154 BC 06/01/2004 06:48 PM
1155 BC 06/01/2004 06:24 PM
1156 BC 06/01/2004 06:17 PM
1157 BC 06/01/2004 06:11 PM
1158 BC 06/01/2004 03:07 PM
1159 BC 06/01/2004 03:05 PM
1160 BC 06/01/2004 02:55 PM
1161 BC 06/01/2004 02:49 PM
1162 BC 06/01/2004 02:44 PM
1163 BC 06/01/2004 02:31 PM
1164 BC 06/01/2004 02:29 PM
1165 BC 06/01/2004 02:22 PM
1166 BC 06/01/2004 02:15 PM
1167 BC 06/01/2004 02:12 PM
1168 BC 06/01/2004 02:07 PM
1169 Butters 06/02/2004 03:25 PM
1170 Butters 06/02/2004 01:07 PM
1171 Butters 06/01/2004 09:20 PM
1172 Butters 06/01/2004 09:11 PM
1173 Butters 06/01/2004 09:01 PM
1174 Butters 06/01/2004 07:47 PM
1175 Butters 06/01/2004 06:52 PM
1176 Butters 06/01/2004 05:55 PM
1177 Butters 06/01/2004 05:12 PM
1178 Butters 05/29/2004 02:22 AM
1179 Butters 05/29/2004 12:57 AM
1180 Butters 05/28/2004 06:15 PM
1181 Butters 05/28/2004 03:15 AM
1182 Butters 05/28/2004 03:13 AM
1183 Butters 05/27/2004 07:43 PM
1184 Butters 05/20/2004 06:24 PM
1185 Butters 05/20/2004 03:54 PM
1186 Butters 05/20/2004 03:08 PM
1187 Butters 05/19/2004 04:55 PM
1188 Butters 05/18/2004 04:40 PM
1189 Butters 05/18/2004 04:04 PM
1190 Butters 05/17/2004 05:48 PM
1191 Butters 05/17/2004 03:30 PM
1192 Butters 05/14/2004 09:03 PM
1193 Butters 05/14/2004 08:54 PM
1194 Butters 06/02/2004 03:25 PM
1195 Butters 06/02/2004 01:07 PM
1196 Butters 06/01/2004 09:20 PM
1197 Butters 06/01/2004 09:11 PM
1198 Butters 06/01/2004 09:01 PM
1199 Butters 06/01/2004 07:47 PM
1200 Butters 06/01/2004 06:52 PM
1201 Butters 06/01/2004 05:55 PM
1202 Butters 06/01/2004 05:12 PM
1203 Butters 05/29/2004 02:22 AM
1204 Butters 05/29/2004 12:57 AM
1205 Butters 05/28/2004 06:15 PM
1206 Butters 05/28/2004 03:15 AM
1207 Butters 05/28/2004 03:13 AM
1208 Butters 05/27/2004 07:43 PM
1209 Butters 05/20/2004 06:24 PM
1210 Butters 05/20/2004 03:54 PM
1211 Butters 05/20/2004 03:08 PM
1212 Butters 05/19/2004 04:55 PM
1213 Butters 05/18/2004 04:40 PM
1214 Butters 05/18/2004 04:04 PM
1215 Butters 05/17/2004 05:48 PM
1216 Butters 05/17/2004 03:30 PM
1217 Butters 05/14/2004 09:03 PM
1218 Butters 05/14/2004 08:54 PM
1219 Cho Da 06/02/2004 03:18 PM
1220 Cho Da 06/01/2004 06:10 PM
1221 Cho Da 06/01/2004 06:05 PM
1222 Cho Da 05/28/2004 10:23 PM
1223 Cho Da 05/28/2004 09:50 PM
1224 Cho Da 05/27/2004 06:53 PM
1225 Cho Da 05/27/2004 06:47 PM
1226 Cho Da 05/27/2004 05:18 PM
1227 Cho Da 05/26/2004 08:46 PM
1228 Cho Da 05/26/2004 08:06 PM
1229 Cho Da 05/26/2004 03:30 PM
1230 Cho Da 05/26/2004 03:22 PM
1231 Cho Da 05/26/2004 01:45 PM
1232 Cho Da 05/26/2004 12:19 PM
1233 Cho Da 05/26/2004 12:14 PM
1234 Cho Da 05/25/2004 05:06 PM
1235 Cho Da 05/25/2004 02:45 PM
1236 Cho Da 05/24/2004 07:43 PM
1237 Cho Da 05/24/2004 07:40 PM
1238 Cho Da 05/24/2004 04:24 PM
1239 Cho Da 05/21/2004 04:48 PM
1240 Cho Da 05/18/2004 03:49 PM
1241 Cho Da 05/18/2004 02:17 PM
1242 Cho Da 05/17/2004 06:10 PM
1243 Cho Da 05/17/2004 06:00 PM
1244 cubedbee 06/02/2004 05:51 PM
1245 cubedbee 06/02/2004 05:06 PM
1246 cubedbee 06/02/2004 05:04 PM
1247 cubedbee 06/02/2004 12:39 PM
1248 cubedbee 06/02/2004 12:38 PM
1249 cubedbee 06/02/2004 04:00 AM
1250 cubedbee 06/02/2004 02:34 AM
1251 cubedbee 06/01/2004 09:11 PM
1252 cubedbee 06/01/2004 09:10 PM
1253 cubedbee 06/01/2004 09:05 PM
1254 cubedbee 06/01/2004 07:52 PM
1255 cubedbee 06/01/2004 07:47 PM
1256 cubedbee 06/01/2004 07:39 PM
1257 cubedbee 06/01/2004 05:33 PM
1258 cubedbee 06/01/2004 03:02 PM
1259 cubedbee 06/01/2004 02:27 PM
1260 cubedbee 06/01/2004 02:15 PM
1261 cubedbee 06/01/2004 02:10 PM
1262 cubedbee 06/01/2004 02:09 PM
1263 cubedbee 06/01/2004 02:07 PM
1264 cubedbee 06/01/2004 01:59 PM
1265 cubedbee 06/01/2004 01:57 PM
1266 cubedbee 06/01/2004 11:55 AM
1267 cubedbee 05/30/2004 01:23 PM
1268 cubedbee 05/29/2004 05:52 PM
1269 Ebenezer Kohl 06/02/2004 07:36 PM
1270 Ebenezer Kohl 06/02/2004 03:55 PM
1271 Ebenezer Kohl 06/02/2004 02:32 PM
1272 Ebenezer Kohl 06/02/2004 02:01 PM
1273 Ebenezer Kohl 06/01/2004 08:00 PM
1274 Ebenezer Kohl 06/01/2004 03:31 PM
1275 Ebenezer Kohl 06/01/2004 02:58 PM
1276 Ebenezer Kohl 05/28/2004 10:23 PM
1277 Ebenezer Kohl 05/28/2004 09:29 PM
1278 Ebenezer Kohl 05/28/2004 09:19 PM
1279 Ebenezer Kohl 05/28/2004 06:42 PM
1280 Ebenezer Kohl 05/28/2004 06:33 PM
1281 Ebenezer Kohl 05/28/2004 04:48 PM
1282 Ebenezer Kohl 05/28/2004 02:53 PM
1283 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 10:40 PM
1284 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 10:02 PM
1285 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 09:29 PM
1286 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 08:36 PM
1287 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 08:04 PM
1288 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 07:24 PM
1289 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 06:12 PM
1290 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 05:59 PM
1291 Ebenezer Kohl 05/27/2004 03:11 PM
1292 Ebenezer Kohl 05/26/2004 09:18 PM
1293 Ebenezer Kohl 05/26/2004 09:08 PM
1294 Gandalf 06/02/2004 07:55 PM
1295 Gandalf 06/02/2004 06:53 PM
1296 Gandalf 06/02/2004 05:29 PM
1297 Gandalf 06/02/2004 04:45 PM
1298 Gandalf 06/02/2004 04:37 PM
1299 Gandalf 06/02/2004 04:04 PM
1300 Gandalf 06/02/2004 03:58 PM
1301 Gandalf 06/02/2004 03:12 PM
1302 Gandalf 06/02/2004 02:40 PM
1303 Gandalf 06/02/2004 01:50 PM
1304 Gandalf 06/02/2004 01:15 PM
1305 Gandalf 06/02/2004 12:59 PM
1306 Gandalf 06/02/2004 12:46 PM
1307 Gandalf 06/01/2004 08:27 PM
1308 Gandalf 06/01/2004 08:08 PM
1309 Gandalf 06/01/2004 07:55 PM
1310 Gandalf 06/01/2004 07:20 PM
1311 Gandalf 06/01/2004 07:08 PM
1312 Gandalf 06/01/2004 06:52 PM
1313 Gandalf 06/01/2004 06:45 PM
1314 Gandalf 06/01/2004 06:31 PM
1315 Gandalf 06/01/2004 05:19 PM
1316 Gandalf 06/01/2004 04:25 PM
1317 Gandalf 06/01/2004 03:20 PM
1318 Gandalf 06/01/2004 01:17 PM
1319 Hagbard Celine 06/02/2004 05:59 PM
1320 Hagbard Celine 06/02/2004 03:32 PM
1321 Hagbard Celine 06/02/2004 03:04 PM
1322 Hagbard Celine 06/01/2004 07:38 PM
1323 Hagbard Celine 06/01/2004 07:32 PM
1324 Hagbard Celine 06/01/2004 06:01 PM
1325 Hagbard Celine 06/01/2004 01:02 PM
1326 Hagbard Celine 06/01/2004 12:09 PM
1327 Hagbard Celine 06/01/2004 11:55 AM
1328 Hagbard Celine 05/28/2004 03:28 PM
1329 Hagbard Celine 05/28/2004 03:05 PM
1330 Hagbard Celine 05/28/2004 01:24 PM
1331 Hagbard Celine 05/28/2004 12:20 PM
1332 Hagbard Celine 05/28/2004 12:05 PM
1333 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 07:28 PM
1334 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 05:18 PM
1335 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 05:17 PM
1336 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 02:47 PM
1337 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 02:33 PM
1338 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 02:25 PM
1339 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 01:46 PM
1340 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 01:42 PM
1341 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 01:31 PM
1342 Hagbard Celine 05/27/2004 01:02 PM
1343 Hagbard Celine 05/26/2004 09:27 PM
1344 J.T. 06/02/2004 12:44 PM
1345 J.T. 06/01/2004 06:19 PM
1346 J.T. 06/01/2004 06:16 PM
1347 J.T. 06/01/2004 12:53 PM
1348 J.T. 05/28/2004 06:26 PM
1349 J.T. 05/28/2004 01:10 PM
1350 J.T. 05/26/2004 07:40 PM
1351 J.T. 05/26/2004 07:39 PM
1352 J.T. 05/26/2004 07:30 PM
1353 J.T. 05/26/2004 04:31 PM
1354 J.T. 05/26/2004 03:25 PM
1355 J.T. 05/26/2004 01:01 PM
1356 J.T. 05/26/2004 12:57 PM
1357 J.T. 05/25/2004 06:34 PM
1358 J.T. 05/25/2004 03:05 PM
1359 J.T. 05/25/2004 02:47 PM
1360 J.T. 05/24/2004 04:23 PM
1361 J.T. 05/24/2004 01:48 PM
1362 J.T. 05/20/2004 12:51 PM
1363 J.T. 05/18/2004 04:39 PM
1364 J.T. 05/18/2004 04:00 PM
1365 J.T. 05/17/2004 06:17 PM
1366 J.T. 05/17/2004 01:08 PM
1367 J.T. 05/14/2004 08:29 PM
1368 J.T. 05/14/2004 06:30 PM
1369 Jables 06/02/2004 01:03 PM
1370 Jables 06/02/2004 01:00 PM
1371 Jables 06/02/2004 12:47 PM
1372 Jables 06/02/2004 12:43 PM
1373 Jables 06/02/2004 05:22 AM
1374 Jables 06/02/2004 04:35 AM
1375 Jables 06/02/2004 04:24 AM
1376 Jables 06/02/2004 04:12 AM
1377 Jables 06/02/2004 02:06 AM
1378 Jables 06/02/2004 02:01 AM
1379 Jables 06/02/2004 01:57 AM
1380 Jables 06/02/2004 01:02 AM
1381 Jables 06/02/2004 12:56 AM
1382 Jables 06/02/2004 12:56 AM
1383 Jables 06/02/2004 12:55 AM
1384 Jables 06/02/2004 12:52 AM
1385 Jables 06/02/2004 12:48 AM
1386 Jables 06/01/2004 08:59 PM
1387 Jables 06/01/2004 08:04 PM
1388 Jables 06/01/2004 08:03 PM
1389 Jables 06/01/2004 08:02 PM
1390 Jables 06/01/2004 06:19 PM
1391 Jables 06/01/2004 06:10 PM
1392 Jables 06/01/2004 06:07 PM
1393 Jables 06/01/2004 02:48 PM
1394 jadzia 06/02/2004 02:48 PM
1395 jadzia 06/02/2004 01:27 PM
1396 jadzia 06/02/2004 01:06 PM
1397 jadzia 06/02/2004 01:01 PM
1398 jadzia 06/02/2004 01:28 AM
1399 jadzia 06/02/2004 01:24 AM
1400 jadzia 06/01/2004 08:07 PM
1401 jadzia 06/01/2004 07:37 PM
1402 jadzia 06/01/2004 02:36 PM
1403 jadzia 05/31/2004 04:59 AM
1404 jadzia 05/31/2004 04:56 AM
1405 jadzia 05/29/2004 03:36 PM
1406 jadzia 05/29/2004 01:38 AM
1407 jadzia 05/29/2004 12:02 AM
1408 jadzia 05/28/2004 10:00 PM
1409 jadzia 05/28/2004 08:41 PM
1410 jadzia 05/28/2004 08:11 PM
1411 jadzia 05/28/2004 08:07 PM
1412 jadzia 05/28/2004 07:14 PM
1413 jadzia 05/28/2004 04:37 PM
1414 jadzia 05/28/2004 02:10 PM
1415 jadzia 05/28/2004 02:02 PM
1416 jadzia 05/28/2004 01:56 PM
1417 jadzia 05/28/2004 04:03 AM
1418 jadzia 05/28/2004 12:46 AM
1419 Kaput Shakur 06/02/2004 01:41 PM
1420 Kaput Shakur 06/02/2004 01:28 PM
1421 Kaput Shakur 06/01/2004 08:49 PM
1422 Kaput Shakur 05/28/2004 07:07 PM
1423 Kaput Shakur 05/28/2004 05:44 PM
1424 Kaput Shakur 05/28/2004 04:30 PM
1425 Kaput Shakur 05/28/2004 02:57 PM
1426 Kaput Shakur 05/28/2004 01:59 PM
1427 Kaput Shakur 05/27/2004 07:40 PM
1428 Kaput Shakur 05/27/2004 07:18 PM
1429 Kaput Shakur 05/27/2004 06:32 PM
1430 Kaput Shakur 05/27/2004 06:30 PM
1431 Kaput Shakur 05/27/2004 06:22 PM
1432 Kaput Shakur 05/27/2004 01:39 PM
1433 Kaput Shakur 05/26/2004 05:14 PM
1434 Kaput Shakur 05/25/2004 08:59 PM
1435 Kaput Shakur 05/25/2004 04:52 PM
1436 Kaput Shakur 05/24/2004 04:18 PM
1437 Kaput Shakur 05/24/2004 03:27 PM
1438 Kaput Shakur 05/24/2004 03:20 PM
1439 Kaput Shakur 05/20/2004 08:57 PM
1440 Kaput Shakur 05/20/2004 08:55 PM
1441 Kaput Shakur 05/18/2004 03:30 PM
1442 Kaput Shakur 05/18/2004 02:27 PM
1443 Kaput Shakur 05/14/2004 07:42 PM
1444 karma police 06/02/2004 04:42 AM
1445 karma police 06/02/2004 04:39 AM
1446 karma police 06/02/2004 02:46 AM
1447 karma police 06/01/2004 11:10 PM
1448 karma police 06/01/2004 08:39 PM
1449 karma police 06/01/2004 08:33 PM
1450 karma police 06/01/2004 07:55 PM
1451 karma police 06/01/2004 07:52 PM
1452 karma police 06/01/2004 07:51 PM
1453 karma police 06/01/2004 07:49 PM
1454 karma police 06/01/2004 07:43 PM
1455 karma police 06/01/2004 07:41 PM
1456 karma police 06/01/2004 07:31 PM
1457 karma police 06/01/2004 07:30 PM
1458 karma police 06/01/2004 07:26 PM
1459 karma police 06/01/2004 07:25 PM
1460 karma police 06/01/2004 07:21 PM
1461 karma police 06/01/2004 07:20 PM
1462 karma police 06/01/2004 07:14 PM
1463 karma police 06/01/2004 07:10 PM
1464 karma police 06/01/2004 07:06 PM
1465 karma police 06/01/2004 07:02 PM
1466 karma police 06/01/2004 07:01 PM
1467 karma police 06/01/2004 07:00 PM
1468 karma police 06/01/2004 06:53 PM
1469 Kenshiro 06/01/2004 04:15 PM
1470 Kenshiro 05/26/2004 06:22 PM
1471 Kenshiro 05/26/2004 04:39 PM
1472 Kenshiro 05/26/2004 03:17 PM
1473 Kenshiro 05/25/2004 05:09 PM
1474 Kenshiro 05/25/2004 03:20 PM
1475 Kenshiro 05/25/2004 11:27 AM
1476 Kenshiro 05/17/2004 05:53 PM
1477 Kenshiro 05/14/2004 09:49 PM
1478 Kenshiro 05/13/2004 07:52 PM
1479 Kenshiro 05/10/2004 05:16 PM
1480 Kenshiro 05/10/2004 03:34 PM
1481 Kenshiro 05/01/2004 02:21 AM
1482 Kenshiro 04/30/2004 06:52 PM
1483 Kenshiro 04/29/2004 08:40 PM
1484 Kenshiro 04/21/2004 08:05 PM
1485 Kenshiro 04/18/2004 01:15 AM
1486 Kenshiro 04/14/2004 09:13 PM
1487 Kenshiro 04/14/2004 01:05 PM
1488 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 09:45 PM
1489 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 09:23 PM
1490 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 08:15 PM
1491 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 05:09 PM
1492 Kenshiro 04/13/2004 03:52 PM
1493 Kenshiro 04/10/2004 12:16 AM
1494 Macroman 06/01/2004 11:02 PM
1495 Macroman 06/01/2004 12:39 AM
1496 Macroman 05/29/2004 05:39 AM
1497 Macroman 05/29/2004 03:41 AM
1498 Macroman 05/28/2004 05:05 AM
1499 Macroman 05/26/2004 10:40 PM
1500 Macroman 05/26/2004 09:55 PM
1501 Macroman 05/26/2004 11:32 AM
1502 Macroman 05/26/2004 01:02 AM
1503 Macroman 05/25/2004 11:43 AM
1504 Macroman 05/25/2004 02:18 AM
1505 Macroman 05/25/2004 12:48 AM
1506 Macroman 05/24/2004 03:35 AM
1507 Macroman 05/23/2004 11:36 PM
1508 Macroman 05/23/2004 04:29 PM
1509 Macroman 05/22/2004 02:58 PM
1510 Macroman 05/20/2004 11:38 PM
1511 Macroman 05/20/2004 02:54 AM
1512 Macroman 05/20/2004 02:09 AM
1513 Macroman 05/19/2004 02:14 AM
1514 Macroman 05/15/2004 09:31 PM
1515 Macroman 05/15/2004 07:39 AM
1516 Macroman 05/15/2004 05:16 AM
1517 Macroman 05/15/2004 04:43 AM
1518 Macroman 05/15/2004 04:19 AM
1519 Leela 06/02/2004 07:47 PM
1520 Leela 06/02/2004 07:06 PM
1521 Leela 06/02/2004 07:00 PM
1522 Leela 06/02/2004 06:55 PM
1523 Leela 06/02/2004 06:54 PM
1524 Leela 06/02/2004 06:52 PM
1525 Leela 06/02/2004 06:52 PM
1526 Leela 06/02/2004 04:42 PM
1527 Leela 06/02/2004 04:10 PM
1528 Leela 06/02/2004 03:49 PM
1529 Leela 06/02/2004 03:42 PM
1530 Leela 06/02/2004 03:38 PM
1531 Leela 06/02/2004 03:36 PM
1532 Leela 06/02/2004 01:11 PM
1533 Leela 06/02/2004 01:03 PM
1534 Leela 06/02/2004 12:22 PM
1535 Leela 06/02/2004 03:53 AM
1536 Leela 06/02/2004 03:46 AM
1537 Leela 06/02/2004 03:11 AM
1538 Leela 06/01/2004 10:37 PM
1539 Leela 06/01/2004 08:56 PM
1540 Leela 06/01/2004 08:28 PM
1541 Leela 06/01/2004 07:51 PM
1542 Leela 06/01/2004 07:24 PM
1543 Leela 06/01/2004 05:34 PM
1544 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 07:05 PM
1545 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 05:31 PM
1546 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 02:31 PM
1547 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 01:48 PM
1548 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 01:29 PM
1549 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 01:03 PM
1550 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 12:57 PM
1551 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 12:54 PM
1552 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 12:53 PM
1553 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 12:40 PM
1554 Maine-iac 06/02/2004 12:37 PM
1555 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 07:15 PM
1556 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 06:37 PM
1557 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 06:19 PM
1558 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 06:05 PM
1559 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 06:02 PM
1560 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 05:57 PM
1561 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 05:55 PM
1562 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 05:31 PM
1563 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 03:47 PM
1564 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 03:15 PM
1565 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 02:40 PM
1566 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 02:34 PM
1567 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 01:09 PM
1568 Maine-iac 06/01/2004 01:03 PM
1569 Mulan 06/02/2004 07:57 PM
1570 Mulan 06/02/2004 05:28 PM
1571 Mulan 06/02/2004 04:59 PM
1572 Mulan 06/02/2004 04:05 PM
1573 Mulan 06/02/2004 03:52 PM
1574 Mulan 06/02/2004 02:42 PM
1575 Mulan 06/02/2004 02:33 PM
1576 Mulan 06/01/2004 08:08 PM
1577 Mulan 06/01/2004 07:50 PM
1578 Mulan 06/01/2004 07:49 PM
1579 Mulan 06/01/2004 07:35 PM
1580 Mulan 06/01/2004 04:47 PM
1581 Mulan 06/01/2004 04:45 PM
1582 Mulan 06/01/2004 04:39 PM
1583 Mulan 06/01/2004 03:24 PM
1584 Mulan 05/28/2004 09:35 PM
1585 Mulan 05/28/2004 09:05 PM
1586 Mulan 05/28/2004 08:27 PM
1587 Mulan 05/28/2004 08:15 PM
1588 Mulan 05/28/2004 04:42 PM
1589 Mulan 05/28/2004 04:25 PM
1590 Mulan 05/28/2004 04:05 PM
1591 Mulan 05/28/2004 04:00 PM
1592 Mulan 05/28/2004 03:58 PM
1593 Mulan 05/28/2004 03:56 PM
1594 RedSoxFan 06/02/2004 03:29 PM
1595 RedSoxFan 06/02/2004 01:53 PM
1596 RedSoxFan 06/02/2004 01:25 PM
1597 RedSoxFan 06/02/2004 12:58 PM
1598 RedSoxFan 06/02/2004 12:55 PM
1599 RedSoxFan 05/29/2004 03:49 AM
1600 RedSoxFan 05/29/2004 12:33 AM
1601 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 11:05 PM
1602 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 05:21 PM
1603 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 05:20 PM
1604 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 02:57 PM
1605 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 02:56 PM
1606 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 02:54 PM
1607 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 01:18 PM
1608 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 02:27 AM
1609 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 02:26 AM
1610 RedSoxFan 05/28/2004 01:45 AM
1611 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 03:50 PM
1612 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 03:49 PM
1613 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 01:59 PM
1614 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 01:57 PM
1615 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 01:30 PM
1616 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 01:29 PM
1617 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 12:43 PM
1618 RedSoxFan 05/27/2004 12:38 AM
1619 Rocky 06/02/2004 06:59 PM
1620 Rocky 05/26/2004 09:39 PM
1621 Rocky 05/26/2004 09:23 PM
1622 Rocky 05/26/2004 09:06 PM
1623 Rocky 05/26/2004 09:01 PM
1624 Rocky 05/26/2004 08:54 PM
1625 Rocky 05/26/2004 08:34 PM
1626 Rocky 05/26/2004 08:23 PM
1627 Rocky 05/26/2004 08:22 PM
1628 Rocky 05/26/2004 08:09 PM
1629 Rocky 05/26/2004 08:03 PM
1630 Rocky 05/26/2004 05:16 PM
1631 Rocky 05/26/2004 05:12 PM
1632 Rocky 05/26/2004 05:02 PM
1633 Rocky 05/26/2004 02:52 PM
1634 Rocky 05/26/2004 02:26 PM
1635 Rocky 05/26/2004 02:19 PM
1636 Rocky 05/26/2004 02:16 PM
1637 Rocky 05/26/2004 01:57 PM
1638 Rocky 05/26/2004 01:09 PM
1639 Rocky 05/25/2004 09:34 PM
1640 Rocky 05/25/2004 09:18 PM
1641 Rocky 05/25/2004 09:10 PM
1642 Rocky 05/25/2004 09:04 PM
1643 Rocky 05/25/2004 08:46 PM
1644 snafu 06/02/2004 07:30 PM
1645 snafu 06/02/2004 04:14 PM
1646 snafu 06/02/2004 03:33 PM
1647 snafu 06/02/2004 02:53 PM
1648 snafu 06/02/2004 02:46 PM
1649 snafu 06/02/2004 02:18 PM
1650 snafu 06/02/2004 01:49 PM
1651 snafu 06/02/2004 01:22 PM
1652 snafu 06/02/2004 12:40 PM
1653 snafu 06/02/2004 12:38 PM
1654 snafu 06/02/2004 12:36 PM
1655 snafu 06/01/2004 08:46 PM
1656 snafu 06/01/2004 08:35 PM
1657 snafu 06/01/2004 02:37 PM
1658 snafu 06/01/2004 01:42 PM
1659 snafu 05/29/2004 12:04 AM
1660 snafu 05/27/2004 08:35 PM
1661 snafu 05/27/2004 02:25 PM
1662 snafu 05/27/2004 12:38 AM
1663 snafu 05/26/2004 08:38 PM
1664 snafu 05/26/2004 03:45 PM
1665 snafu 05/26/2004 02:29 PM
1666 snafu 05/26/2004 02:20 PM
1667 snafu 05/26/2004 01:22 PM
1668 snafu 05/26/2004 12:49 PM
1669 stu 05/26/2004 09:10 PM
1670 stu 05/23/2004 05:00 PM
1671 stu 05/19/2004 02:15 AM
1672 stu 05/16/2004 10:29 PM
1673 stu 05/11/2004 02:12 AM
1674 stu 05/09/2004 10:13 PM
1675 stu 05/09/2004 02:13 AM
1676 stu 05/08/2004 10:51 PM
1677 stu 05/08/2004 01:35 AM
1678 stu 05/07/2004 03:09 AM
1679 stu 05/06/2004 10:36 PM
1680 stu 04/30/2004 11:33 PM
1681 stu 04/30/2004 04:00 PM
1682 stu 04/28/2004 09:41 PM
1683 stu 04/26/2004 10:21 PM
1684 stu 04/26/2004 05:31 AM
1685 stu 04/24/2004 11:16 PM
1686 stu 04/24/2004 05:37 AM
1687 stu 04/24/2004 04:46 AM
1688 stu 04/24/2004 03:58 AM
1689 stu 04/23/2004 10:00 PM
1690 stu 04/21/2004 10:54 PM
1691 stu 04/18/2004 10:53 PM
1692 stu 04/18/2004 10:18 PM
1693 stu 04/14/2004 06:57 PM
1694 Sunny 06/02/2004 07:44 PM
1695 Sunny 06/02/2004 06:33 PM
1696 Sunny 06/02/2004 06:05 PM
1697 Sunny 06/02/2004 05:06 PM
1698 Sunny 06/02/2004 05:03 PM
1699 Sunny 06/02/2004 04:57 PM
1700 Sunny 06/02/2004 04:03 PM
1701 Sunny 06/02/2004 04:02 PM
1702 Sunny 06/02/2004 03:23 PM
1703 Sunny 06/02/2004 03:22 PM
1704 Sunny 06/02/2004 03:12 PM
1705 Sunny 06/02/2004 02:56 PM
1706 Sunny 06/02/2004 02:22 PM
1707 Sunny 06/02/2004 02:05 PM
1708 Sunny 06/02/2004 01:12 PM
1709 Sunny 06/01/2004 10:10 PM
1710 Sunny 06/01/2004 10:07 PM
1711 Sunny 06/01/2004 09:21 PM
1712 Sunny 06/01/2004 09:19 PM
1713 Sunny 06/01/2004 09:12 PM
1714 Sunny 06/01/2004 09:11 PM
1715 Sunny 06/01/2004 09:09 PM
1716 Sunny 06/01/2004 08:52 PM
1717 Sunny 06/01/2004 08:49 PM
1718 Sunny 06/01/2004 08:40 PM
1719 Super Silver Haze 06/02/2004 03:21 AM
1720 Super Silver Haze 06/02/2004 03:20 AM
1721 Super Silver Haze 06/02/2004 03:06 AM
1722 Super Silver Haze 06/02/2004 02:58 AM
1723 Super Silver Haze 06/02/2004 01:54 AM
1724 Super Silver Haze 06/01/2004 09:31 PM
1725 Super Silver Haze 06/01/2004 11:16 AM
1726 Super Silver Haze 05/31/2004 02:50 AM
1727 Super Silver Haze 05/31/2004 12:10 AM
1728 Super Silver Haze 05/29/2004 05:32 PM
1729 Super Silver Haze 05/28/2004 09:56 PM
1730 Super Silver Haze 05/28/2004 09:37 PM
1731 Super Silver Haze 05/26/2004 02:30 AM
1732 Super Silver Haze 05/25/2004 09:30 PM
1733 Super Silver Haze 05/25/2004 02:54 AM
1734 Super Silver Haze 05/15/2004 02:03 AM
1735 Super Silver Haze 05/05/2004 02:51 AM
1736 Super Silver Haze 05/03/2004 09:44 PM
1737 Super Silver Haze 05/02/2004 11:53 AM
1738 Super Silver Haze 05/01/2004 11:27 PM
1739 Super Silver Haze 04/28/2004 11:08 PM
1740 Super Silver Haze 04/27/2004 10:24 PM
1741 Super Silver Haze 04/26/2004 10:41 PM
1742 Super Silver Haze 04/22/2004 11:35 PM
1743 Super Silver Haze 04/01/2004 11:05 PM
1744 thing 06/01/2004 08:50 PM
1745 thing 06/01/2004 06:22 PM
1746 thing 05/27/2004 06:16 PM
1747 thing 05/27/2004 06:09 PM
1748 thing 05/27/2004 05:31 PM
1749 thing 05/27/2004 05:15 PM
1750 thing 05/26/2004 06:38 PM
1751 thing 05/26/2004 04:30 PM
1752 thing 05/25/2004 09:56 PM
1753 thing 05/25/2004 08:11 PM
1754 thing 05/25/2004 07:18 PM
1755 thing 05/25/2004 05:44 PM
1756 thing 05/25/2004 04:12 PM
1757 thing 05/24/2004 08:47 PM
1758 thing 05/24/2004 08:42 PM
1759 thing 05/24/2004 08:21 PM
1760 thing 05/24/2004 03:57 PM
1761 thing 05/24/2004 03:11 PM
1762 thing 05/24/2004 12:08 AM
1763 thing 05/21/2004 11:34 PM
1764 thing 05/21/2004 09:02 PM
1765 thing 05/21/2004 06:12 PM
1766 thing 05/21/2004 06:06 PM
1767 thing 05/21/2004 05:42 PM
1768 thing 05/21/2004 05:36 PM
1769 Traina 05/27/2004 04:14 PM
1770 Traina 05/27/2004 04:03 PM
1771 Traina 05/27/2004 03:50 PM
1772 Traina 05/27/2004 02:54 PM
1773 Traina 05/26/2004 01:23 PM
1774 Traina 05/26/2004 01:22 PM
1775 Traina 05/26/2004 12:23 PM
1776 Traina 05/25/2004 09:51 PM
1777 Traina 05/25/2004 09:50 PM
1778 Traina 05/25/2004 09:44 PM
1779 Traina 05/25/2004 04:49 PM
1780 Traina 05/25/2004 04:45 PM
1781 Traina 05/24/2004 02:19 PM
1782 Traina 05/24/2004 02:15 PM
1783 Traina 05/24/2004 02:11 PM
1784 Traina 05/24/2004 02:09 PM
1785 Traina 05/24/2004 12:53 PM
1786 Traina 05/24/2004 12:24 PM
1787 Traina 05/24/2004 12:24 PM
1788 Traina 05/18/2004 10:09 PM
1789 Traina 05/14/2004 06:43 PM
1790 Traina 05/14/2004 04:08 AM
1791 Traina 05/14/2004 04:06 AM
1792 Traina 05/14/2004 04:00 AM
1793 Traina 05/13/2004 12:35 PM
1794 Ultimate Anyone? 06/02/2004 07:10 PM
1795 Ultimate Anyone? 06/01/2004 05:14 PM
1796 Ultimate Anyone? 06/01/2004 05:19 AM
1797 Ultimate Anyone? 06/01/2004 01:10 AM
1798 Ultimate Anyone? 05/31/2004 04:09 PM
1799 Ultimate Anyone? 05/31/2004 01:35 AM
1800 Ultimate Anyone? 05/29/2004 04:53 PM
1801 Ultimate Anyone? 05/29/2004 04:07 AM
1802 Ultimate Anyone? 05/28/2004 09:44 PM
1803 Ultimate Anyone? 05/28/2004 03:52 PM
1804 Ultimate Anyone? 05/28/2004 02:46 PM
1805 Ultimate Anyone? 05/28/2004 01:34 PM
1806 Ultimate Anyone? 05/28/2004 01:27 PM
1807 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 06:22 PM
1808 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 01:56 PM
1809 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 01:54 PM
1810 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 04:37 AM
1811 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 04:29 AM
1812 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 04:26 AM
1813 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 04:23 AM
1814 Ultimate Anyone? 05/27/2004 04:20 AM
1815 Ultimate Anyone? 05/26/2004 06:57 PM
1816 Ultimate Anyone? 05/26/2004 06:55 PM
1817 Ultimate Anyone? 05/26/2004 05:43 PM
1818 Ultimate Anyone? 05/26/2004 04:30 AM
1819 Werewolf 06/01/2004 02:09 AM
1820 Werewolf 06/01/2004 02:04 AM
1821 Werewolf 06/01/2004 01:57 AM
1822 Werewolf 06/01/2004 01:55 AM
1823 Werewolf 06/01/2004 01:55 AM
1824 Werewolf 06/01/2004 01:17 AM
1825 Werewolf 06/01/2004 01:13 AM
1826 Werewolf 06/01/2004 01:10 AM
1827 Werewolf 06/01/2004 12:08 AM
1828 Werewolf 05/31/2004 11:42 PM
1829 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:59 PM
1830 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:57 PM
1831 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:55 PM
1832 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:53 PM
1833 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:52 PM
1834 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:52 PM
1835 Werewolf 05/28/2004 03:10 AM
1836 Werewolf 05/28/2004 03:05 AM
1837 Werewolf 05/28/2004 03:03 AM
1838 Werewolf 05/28/2004 01:34 AM
1839 Werewolf 05/28/2004 01:30 AM
1840 Werewolf 05/28/2004 01:18 AM
1841 Werewolf 05/28/2004 01:07 AM
1842 Werewolf 05/28/2004 12:55 AM
1843 Werewolf 05/28/2004 12:38 AM
1844 Will Durant 06/02/2004 06:30 PM
1845 Will Durant 06/02/2004 05:59 PM
1846 Will Durant 06/02/2004 05:16 PM
1847 Will Durant 06/02/2004 02:38 PM
1848 Will Durant 06/02/2004 02:13 PM
1849 Will Durant 06/02/2004 12:19 AM
1850 Will Durant 06/01/2004 10:47 PM
1851 Will Durant 06/01/2004 04:44 PM
1852 Will Durant 06/01/2004 04:42 PM
1853 Will Durant 06/01/2004 04:16 PM
1854 Will Durant 06/01/2004 02:49 AM
1855 Will Durant 06/01/2004 02:03 AM
1856 Will Durant 05/31/2004 03:37 AM
1857 Will Durant 05/28/2004 09:36 PM
1858 Will Durant 05/28/2004 07:26 PM
1859 Will Durant 05/28/2004 07:06 PM
1860 Will Durant 05/28/2004 06:59 PM
1861 Will Durant 05/28/2004 04:34 PM
1862 Will Durant 05/28/2004 04:31 PM
1863 Will Durant 05/28/2004 04:03 PM
1864 Will Durant 05/28/2004 03:51 PM
1865 Will Durant 05/28/2004 02:53 PM
1866 Will Durant 05/27/2004 11:02 PM
1867 Will Durant 05/27/2004 09:51 PM
1868 Will Durant 05/27/2004 05:58 PM
1869 Will Durant 06/02/2004 06:30 PM
1870 Will Durant 06/02/2004 05:59 PM
1871 Will Durant 06/02/2004 05:16 PM
1872 Will Durant 06/02/2004 02:38 PM
1873 Will Durant 06/02/2004 02:13 PM
1874 Will Durant 06/02/2004 12:19 AM
1875 Will Durant 06/01/2004 10:47 PM
1876 Will Durant 06/01/2004 04:44 PM
1877 Will Durant 06/01/2004 04:42 PM
1878 Will Durant 06/01/2004 04:16 PM
1879 Will Durant 06/01/2004 02:49 AM
1880 Will Durant 06/01/2004 02:03 AM
1881 Will Durant 05/31/2004 03:37 AM
1882 Will Durant 05/28/2004 09:36 PM
1883 Will Durant 05/28/2004 07:26 PM
1884 Will Durant 05/28/2004 07:06 PM
1885 Will Durant 05/28/2004 06:59 PM
1886 Will Durant 05/28/2004 04:34 PM
1887 Will Durant 05/28/2004 04:31 PM
1888 Will Durant 05/28/2004 04:03 PM
1889 Will Durant 05/28/2004 03:51 PM
1890 Will Durant 05/28/2004 02:53 PM
1891 Will Durant 05/27/2004 11:02 PM
1892 Will Durant 05/27/2004 09:51 PM
1893 Will Durant 05/27/2004 05:58 PM
1894 EC1 06/02/2004 07:40 PM
1895 EC1 06/02/2004 04:15 PM
1896 EC1 05/26/2004 02:06 PM
1897 EC1 05/25/2004 02:31 PM
1898 EC1 05/24/2004 06:11 PM
1899 EC2 05/25/2004 11:28 PM
1900 EC2 05/25/2004 05:25 PM
1901 EC2 05/25/2004 04:33 PM
1902 EC2 05/25/2004 02:48 PM
1903 EC2 05/24/2004 06:28 PM
1904 EC2 05/24/2004 05:20 PM
1905 EC2 05/24/2004 05:04 PM
1906 EC_Slayer 06/01/2004 10:06 PM
1907 EC_Slayer 05/26/2004 03:39 PM
1908 EC_Slayer 05/24/2004 08:33 PM
1909 EC_Slayer 05/24/2004 06:16 PM

snafu
06-02-2004, 05:44 PM
Since we know that EC2 was online during the three day weekend, I compiled a list of the posts made during the long weekend by any posters to any thread.
1003 4sigma 05/31/2004 10:12 PM
1047 All Clear 05/31/2004 08:44 PM
1048 All Clear 05/30/2004 11:24 PM
1049 All Clear 05/30/2004 11:09 PM
1050 All Clear 05/30/2004 03:13 AM
1071 Anonymouse 05/30/2004 07:06 PM
1096 Asynchronous 05/31/2004 05:34 PM
1267 cubedbee 05/30/2004 01:23 PM
1403 jadzia 05/31/2004 04:59 AM
1404 jadzia 05/31/2004 04:56 AM
1726 Super Silver Haze 05/31/2004 02:50 AM
1727 Super Silver Haze 05/31/2004 12:10 AM
1798 Ultimate Anyone? 05/31/2004 04:09 PM
1799 Ultimate Anyone? 05/31/2004 01:35 AM
1828 Werewolf 05/31/2004 11:42 PM
1829 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:59 PM
1830 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:57 PM
1831 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:55 PM
1832 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:53 PM
1833 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:52 PM
1834 Werewolf 05/31/2004 09:52 PM
1856 Will Durant 05/31/2004 03:37 AM
1881 Will Durant 05/31/2004 03:37 AM

This would seemingly narrow the choices for EC2 to the following:
4Sigma, All Clear, Anonymouse, Asynchronous, CubedBee, jadzia, Ultimate Anyone?, Werewolf, and Will Durant

Thoughts?

snafu
06-02-2004, 05:58 PM
Final thoughts, I don't think we should specifically recommend Ahow or Anonymouse or Sunny. I would recommend that we post in code to the slayer to chose from the list of people who posted over the weekend.

I need to check out for the day so will let you either recommend as you see fit or chose to continue discussion tomorrow.

Personally, I think we should go ahead and pick off jadzia. If she is EC then that would serve to partially confirm Sunny as EC as well. If she is not EC then that would eliminate most of my theories and allow me to have a clearer slate.

Super Silver Haze
06-02-2004, 06:56 PM
(deleted)

Super Silver Haze
06-02-2004, 08:47 PM
(deleted)

Super Silver Haze
06-02-2004, 11:01 PM
(deleted)

snafu
06-02-2004, 11:04 PM
Received the following PM from 4Sigma
Snafu,

Condolences on your lynching. Though I think you will find it is a lot of fun to be a ghost.

I confess that I had some small suspicion of you, though I thought this was somewhat offset by some helpful comments you have made. Really there is so little to go on, this early in the game. You will find my full comments about you posted in the ghost forum, I expect. I hope that you will forgive me to the extent that I may have contributed to your death.

In public I only posted my suspicions. It is the role of the ghosts to weigh the public suspicions against private determinations of innocence. The theory is that if we identify certain players as innocent, we target someone else, and that improves our chances of killing EC. But if EC knew who we thought was innocent, EC would kill them off to counter this strategy. Thus the ghosts are the custodians of information as to who is innocent.

For example, I think it is pretty clear that Asynchronous and jadzia are innocent. But this information has been kept private. Again, I expect you will find this in PMs I have forwarded to the ghost forum. If we can keep them alive, we improve our chances of hitting EC.

I want to reiterate that I found your post summarizing the voting and key events in round 1 to be very helpful. I hope that you will continue to remain active in the game and post similar information in the future. This will help the players to identify who is innocent and narrow the field correctly to target the EC.

-- 4σ

snafu
06-02-2004, 11:12 PM
My suggestion at this point would be to suggest the full list of people that posted over the long weekend to EC_Slayer.

This would be 4Sigma, All Clear, Anonymouse, Asynchronous, CubedBee, jadzia, Ultimate Anyone?, Werewolf, and Will Durant.

I do not think we give any reasons for chosing these people.

To liven up the discussion, I would actually be inclined to post the names openly instead of in code but this is not a strong preference or anything so feel free to object.

Can I get a second and third to open post to EC_Slayer of EC_Slayer, the ghosts suggest you chose from the following 4Sigma, All Clear, Anonymouse, Asynchronous, CubedBee, jadzia, Ultimate Anyone?, Werewolf, and Will Durant. We have our reasons but cannot explain.

The names can be either in the open or in code. Please post yea or nea on suggesting this and your preference for in the open or in code. If there is full agreement then I can take care of posting as I am in the earliest time zone. If there are any objections, I will hold on posting until we have a strong consensus or preferably full agreement.

Super Silver Haze
06-02-2004, 11:38 PM
(deleted)

Leela
06-02-2004, 11:43 PM
If you are getting repeated messages that have already been sent to you, you can remind everyone with a post in the forum that I will be forwarding to you everything I get, unless told by the sender that you already were sent a copy. If they are only sending to one of us, it would be better if the message is sent to me, since you can't pm me with what you get.

Speaking of which, snafu (probably forgetting that he is not allowed) sent me a private message. I answered it, since I am allowed to answer, but would like to remind every ghost reading this that they are not allowed by rule to private message me. If there is a short message that must reach me, have a ghost write in the main thread that I should pm leela with a code. I will pm her with something that will allow a ghost to post a short (few words) message in the main thread without others knowing what is going on.

Here are some more pm's Ive gotten.

From Avi, June 2nd 2:05PM

I believe that Gandalf is innocent, as he informed me that Mr. P. posted something that would indirectly adversely affect my chances of surviving, and G himself pointed it out to Mr. P, who then deleted the post's contents.

PM'ng Mr. P and then informing me upon my return of the incident is not something an EC would do in my opinion.

My gut feeling now lies vaguely on BC. He is much more vocal in this game than I have ever seen him on this board. Perhaps he is caught up in the mathematics, but the change in attitude is a cause for concern.


From Rocky, June 2nd 2:19PM

I wanted to send a preliminary list of my thoughts on 8 players for this game. Many players are still pretty quiet, and some just haven't given enough to go on yet. Below are my thoughts on the most and least likely candidates for E.C. today.


Prime EC Suspects (in decreading order):

Sunny - too many slip ups and constant questions about basic rules that she's claimed to have read.

Cho DA - not as vocal as last game. A good strategist who's not sharing any strategy this game.

Butters - the disappearing act seems like a cover. He's not lending anything to strategy.

Kenshiro - has been very adamant about strategies that I would consider somewhat shaky.


Least likely EC (starting with least likely):

Rocky - This is the only one that I know for sure.

4sigma - seems like he's playing the same game as last time. Good strategies.

All Clear - seems to be thinking through the issues a little more this game. He stated last game that he was deep in studying, so that may be his reason. However, he appears to be looking at the game from a student perspective.

Question Mark???

Gandalf - he could go either way. Good strategies, but his "quiet" approach makes him seem a little suspicious. I'd currently put him in the "not likely to be E.C." pile. He's too slick to slip up, IMO, but I'm going to try to find some clues in his posts.


From 4sigma, in response to a message I sent him (In my Captain Morgan tone- caps and short sentences) regarding thanking him for reccomending a code idea, and telling him that Leela and I are currently using a different code system
June 2nd 2:42PM


THOUGH YOU MAY HAVE REALIZED BY NOW THAT I RECCOMENDED A DIFFERENT CODE WHICH LEELA IS USING, I THINK THE IDEA YOU BROUGHT UP WAS GREAT, AND IS APPRECIATED. THANK YOU FOR THE PRIVATE MESSAGES.

Yes, I did notice that. I think it's great that you and Leela have got a code system going. I am going to see if I can decipher it or not. If I can, I will let you know and advise you to change it. :)

Good luck with your next slaying.

:-?

If I'm guessing correctly, she should have left the post up there. Then she could have claimed she was kidding - which is what I thought she was doing.

By deleting it, she now is a very serious candidate for slayer - AND WE DON'T NEED THE EC KNOWING THAT :(

If she truly is the slayer, it may be best if we lynch her while there are still 2 EC, so we can get a new anonymous slayer. Otherwise, EC may just wait until one goes, and then off her.

If she's not the slayer, then we're fine :)

Leela
06-02-2004, 11:49 PM
I would add Ebenezer Kohl or Kaput Shakur to that list. I don't think we have to post in code. Especially if we're including that many names.

Super Silver Haze
06-03-2004, 12:01 AM
:-?

If I'm guessing correctly, she should have left the post up there. Then she could have claimed she was kidding - which is what I thought she was doing.

By deleting it, she now is a very serious candidate for slayer - AND WE DON'T NEED THE EC KNOWING THAT :(

If she truly is the slayer, it may be best if we lynch her while there are still 2 EC, so we can get a new anonymous slayer. Otherwise, EC may just wait until one goes, and then off her.

If she's not the slayer, then we're fine :)

This is something Avi PMed directly to you, right? This one wasn't from the slayer?

Did anyone see what Mulan's deleted post said? I wasn't in there quickly enough to catch it.

We still don't know who the slayer is, but I don't think it's Mulan. She said something like "Kill me if you want, then I can get more work done" in an earlier PM. Slayers don't do that kind of stuff.

Leela
06-03-2004, 12:18 AM
Yes, Avi sent that to me directly. I believe it was quoted in the EC thread before it was deleted. I think it may have said "Check you pms" in response to when is the slayers victim going to post their death scene.


Also, now that I've caught up on the thread, I think maybe we should post the list to the slayer in code. But I don't know for sure.

snafu
06-03-2004, 10:35 AM
I like one of the suggestions that someone made (AVI? or 4Sigma)

Have the students post 3 or 4 suggestions each and possibly even a vote but do NOT cast enough votes to lynch anyone yet

Have the students PM EC_Slayer or the ghosts a list of who they think is innocent and why

Keep accusations public and innocence private

Then the ghosts and slayer will help consolidate the views and chose the most likely non-slayer person.

Leela - as you are online, do you have any objections to my posting this to the game?

Leela
06-03-2004, 10:47 AM
That sounds good to me. This is the system I would like to use also.

ahow
06-03-2004, 06:36 PM
I really don't have any justifications for them, but Sunny, Mulan, and Jadzia could all be EC in my opinion. Especially Sunny and it seems like there alot of info to support this. I say we push for Sunny to be lynched this next round...

Super Silver Haze
06-03-2004, 07:03 PM
PM from Gandalf about my last post (page 38) in the game thread...

Darn it. I PMed Leela and Slayer that my posts about how the EC could enlist the sleeper on their side by revealing their id were a trap. Then you go and point out that the sleeper would be able to choose death right away, and tell us an EC. Oh, well, they probably wouldn't have fallen for it anyway.

At least both of those PMs (neither has been opened yet) are time-stamped before your post, so it's on record that I wasn't helping EC. I don't know what Ebenezer was doing.

And here I thought people were just making idle conversation. Whoops. :duh:

Leela
06-03-2004, 11:11 PM
PM from Gandalf about my last post (page 38) in the game thread...

Darn it. I PMed Leela and Slayer that my posts about how the EC could enlist the sleeper on their side by revealing their id were a trap. Then you go and point out that the sleeper would be able to choose death right away, and tell us an EC. Oh, well, they probably wouldn't have fallen for it anyway.

At least both of those PMs (neither has been opened yet) are time-stamped before your post, so it's on record that I wasn't helping EC. I don't know what Ebenezer was doing.

And here I thought people were just making idle conversation. Whoops. :duh:


I did get a pm from Gandalf saying that he was trying to set a trap for EC.

Leela
06-04-2004, 09:56 AM
I'm not going to elaborate here, since I assume Slayer will forward a PM I sent, but my posts about how EC could notify a slayer pre-activation won't help EC. They're a trap. EC is unlikely to fall for it, but it can't hurt to try. We'll see what happens about halfway through the round of student deliberations.


Leela, this PM was sent to Snafu, but I thought you should get a copy as well.

Firstly, sorry about the lateness of this response, as I was unable to sign on today until now. There was a mix-up with the code, apparently, which I will address now. This message is being copied to Leela, and I guess either of you can post it.

On Wednesday at 1:42pm RF time, I sent Leela a message which I am hoping she posted in the ghost forum soon afterwards, detailing who I was considering. Here is the code aspect of it.


How about this code- as soon as all the ghosts have had a chance to read this, please post a six digit number in the forum. _ a _ _ _ _ where the blanks are any number, and the "a" (second of the six digits) is the code number meaning the ghosts think

1 = get Anonymouse
2 = get Ahow
3 = get Sunny
4 = ghosts have no opinion, whoever I think is EC or suspicious is fine
5 = get someone else (If doing this, follow the first six digit number by another six digit one, with the person you would MUCH rather me hit, using the same code from last time, where numbers 4 and 5 of the six digits are the important ones, and the top person is number 14, etc.)

In the future, I like this setup, where I tell you who I will hit and you tell me who you will before it happens. This way, I can continue to protect the slayer (me) from you, and you all can fill me in on things I may not be privy to.

I will wait until this evening if I don't see a number before that. At that point, I'll probably just go with Anonymouse.



By "evening", I was kind of hoping for something before the area of 8 or 9PM, RF time. At 10PM RF time, when nothing was posted, and not knowing if I should wait any longer (if I should, next time just post something in the main thread saying "Ghosts request EC Slayer to wait until tomorrow morning" or something like that), I decided to do some additional checking, and figured on getting Ahow, for reasons detailed in the PM I sent Leela, which I hope she posted. By the time I saw your code message the next morning, the decision had been made.

And now to the code sent, of "041605 115061 001181 215172 422103 420290 601030"

It is a moo point (like a cow's opinion- it doesn't matter.... if you have never seen a Friends episode, ignore that line) since the slaying had already occurred, but I am clueless as to what that code means. The second digit of the first number is 4, meaning I can get who I want, so I would guess that the next few numbers are just recommendations. The problem is, the fourth and fifth digit on the second number is "06", which does not correspond to anyone according to the code Leela and I set up in the previous message, where "14" is the top person on the list, and the numbers go down (so in the previous code Leela sent me, 37 is snafu, 21 is karma police, 45 is mulan).

I know you guys can't PM me back, but maybe confirm the numbers are correct with each other before posting. It would be a shame to hit the wrong person because of that. Following this, a PM will be sent to Leela with copies of messages I have gotten today.

As a side point, now that there are more ghosts, if Leela would like to pass the "head ghost" title on to someone else, please have Leela write a one letter message in the main thread of "E" or "J" where E means to switch to SSH, and J means to switch to snafu. As far as I can tell, oblomov and stu are MIA.



I didn't do this before since I wasn't sure if this was allowed, but Mr. Penguin confirmed it was- I will now be giving you all the pm's sent by the previous slayer, which I still have access to. I am clueless, but if a ghost is able to figure out who wrote this, we will know for sure who an innocent student is. In addition, I should tell you that the previous slayer definitely is NOT 4sigma, rocky, cubedbee, or sunny, since messages were sent to that person (and not just copies that may be sent to an alternate student ID from slayer ID- they all were meaningful posts), and it seems obvious that the old slayer wouldn't be trying to fool the new slayer into anything. So here goes. The messages are being copied in red and blue in the order they were sent with the first being on top. All the messages were sent on the 26th and 27th. Messages 1, 2, 7, and 9 were to 4sigma, 3 was to cubedbee, and 4, 5, 6, and 8 were to Sunny.

I'm not sure I have time for a cipher, though it fun. I favor us setting up a list of messages and a code word to access them. Also, numbering the player alphabetically starting from the bottom with number XX (13??) is fine with me.

What kind of messages would you be likely to send to me?

Say it was likely that you'd want to say: "the ghosts think Cubedbee is EC". If the word for the phrase was Grapefruit and Cubedbee's number is 38. You'd say "Grapefruit 38"

I can receive and send PMs to live players. I can PM ghosts. They cannot PM me.
I have my suspicions too. Thank you for yours and Sunny's.
Sunny is in for a hard time. She is too trusting and doesn't seem to understand the game.

The slayer is not EC. Be careful out there.

Thank you for the updates. I'll save them in the inbox for later reference.

Number 3 is what I was thinking. Maybe the new slayer will continue this. Don't know.

Thank you. I'll leave it to the new slayer to firm up any arrangements (like the "code" we discussed.) I'll still be in the game, just not the slayer and I won't let on about the code.

I was quite happy to rid ourselves of 3 non-playing players. There are more of these, and they should be killed asap. I suppose the next slayer can decide to do this or not.

I wish I had more time to devote to the slayer role - I like the power and it seems like fun. Perhaps I'll tell you afterward who I am.

Good luck and DEATH to the EC...


Thank you. No time for the strategy involved. I'll still be a player and DEATH TO THE EC!!!

I'm not gone yet!! But I'm sure the new slayer will appreciate the welcome.


And now for the regular private messages I have gotten since the last update I sent. Again, I encourage the ghosts to encourage the students to send messages to me, as I can respond back assuring them their opinion matters, and will be able to read it on my own. Moreover, I put 4 or 5 of them into one message, so you aren't stuck opening messages six times a day. :D :wink:


From Sunny, June 2nd 2:57PM

THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGE. YOUR MESSAGE HAS BEEN READ AND FORWARDED TO THE HEAD GHOST WHO WILL POST THE MESSAGE IN THE GHOST FORUM. I CHECK WITH THEM BEFORE EACH SLAY, AND VICE VERSA. YOUR OPINION WILL BE FACTORED IN ALONG WITH THOSE OBTAINED FROM OTHERS, WHEN DECIDING WHO TO HIT EACH TIME. :D :wink:

I hope I'm not suspecting you, too, slayer. ;)

the following is what I just sent to Leela, just FYI.

Edit from my list of suspects, I would now put BC in the in-between category (was he there already?) I haven't responded, not sure if I should. I wish you guys could communicate with me man....

BC wrote:
Similar post sent to other players:

I have begun to scratch the surface of the problem, and have consulted with a few other players on the mathematics/assumptions. In the next day or two I intend to summarize my thinking and the equations. I was wondering if you would like to be included when I PM my results?

Also, I was wondering who you suspect of being EC (or at least of acting suspiciously). I really don't have any theories yet, which is why I started to wonder what would happen if we all were acting randomly...


Snafu sent me a message at 3:29PM. He, of course, wasn't allowed to, and I told him this in the response I sent him back (which I decided I am allowed to, being allowed to pm ghosts). I should point out that he mentioned that he liked my "Captain Morgan" theme that I use with the live students. Hope you guys enjoy it also....


From 4Sigma regarding a pm he sent to Asynchronous, June 2nd 6:59PM

Following is a PM I sent to Asynchronous. He may well have forwarded it to you as well. Basically, Asynch and I are convinced of each others' innocence, and have begun conspiring together a bit. Asynch pointed out that the "fear and ignorance" quote from EC2 is from the game Paranoia. I also have seen Tupac use something similar in the Political thread.

So we are going to bump the "cards and dice" thread and games and see if we can :capn: it to talk about the game Paranoia. We want to see who the other paranoia players are, to see if perhaps they might be EC2. Otherwise, IMHO, EC2 is probably someone who hangs out in Political and has been influenced by Tupac.


Checking in again with a couple of ruminations...

I think that EC gave us one important clue that while it was mentioned publicly, I'm not sure enough attention may have been focused (or perhaps wisely, the attention has not been publicised). This concerns the avatar that EC2 I believe first selected. If I recall correctly, EC2 originally had an SOA logo. This would be a pretty strong clue as to which society they are a member of, as I'm doubtful as to whether they would have realized that this was a givaway. I believe EC1 could go either way since the discussion of avatars occured before EC1 ever posted. However, EC2 made the following strange posting:

Hey EC1, you never did admit to changing your logo. Logo change? What are you talking about? Are you one of those dual-society candidates?
In the interest of fair play, I will let you know that I am indeed "one of those dual-society candidates."

Dual-society could mean that they are a student taking 1-4 which are dual-society, or it could be a red herring. Even if they are dual-society, their employer (if they have one) would cause them to self-identify as SOA or CAS.

It might be useful to compile a listing of the students categorized by SOA, CAS or student. Then if we can verify the avatar issue to determine where EC2's bias, we could narrow the list.
I'm not sure how significant the logo change is. It perhaps would tend to rule out someone who is a CAS student, but I frankly didn't even know the difference until I was well along into the exams. I agree it is at least worthwhile to construct a list of what we know in terms of who is a student in SOA vs. CAS. This could probably be put together pretty easily from the exam threads.

In addition, the machismo posting of both EC1 &2 is going to do them in. Whenever they write more than a simple phrase, we get language that we know is EC that we can compare back to the language of known students. I think there are two examples already that warrant analysis:

EC1 wrote:

As you said, EC1 seems like a gay male. NTTAWWT. There is nothing I love more than long hard wizard wands. I don't think that alone makes me a gay male does it?

I think this (grossly offensive) post was made by a younger male - college or early twenties. Once I have time to review the member list, I think we could get it down to a fairly narrow list.
This does tend to look like a young guy, but I think it could also be some of the females. However, a female might well respond in a less cryptic way, to more clearly create the impression that they are male. On balance I tend to agree that young males are the most likely.


BOO!!!
Man, I love being the EC. Fear and ignorance. Ignorance and fear. Yous guys gonna do half our work for us.

Again, I think this is a male poster. Also, the quote is telling. The middle two sentences are too unigue not to be a quote. The quite is from a role-playing game called Paranoia. The full quote is "Fear and Ignorance. Ignorance and Fear. These are our watchwords." The game Paranoia dates back to at least 1991 (the quote appears here in 1991). This means were probably talking about an older, male player who is or was a D&D / Paranoia gamer. I also googled the phrase and only Paranoia references came up, so I don't think there is a contemporary reference. Therefore, I think we've got a good lead.
Thank you for the "fear and ignorance" reference. I actually played Paranoia once or twice in college, though I don't remember this phrase. This is the one where you have red/orange/yellow/green armor and weapons and stuff, right? Anwyay, I think similar phrases have been posted over in political, perhaps by Tupac. I will have to further research this. [search = "find all posts by tupac... ] If true, this could mean that EC2 is someone that hangs out in political.

Given this, it'd be nice to see a student stratification by age band. I haven't done this yet, and it may provide more clues, but in the interim combined with other suspicions, I think EC2 may very well be Gandalf.

I am also posting this to EC_Slayer in the very unlikely chance that you are EC. I'll pass on my updated suspicion list after the expected Slayer & EC carnage of the next few days.

I think these are some very good insights. I do think we need to get EC1 and EC2 to keep posting. I am frankly a bit annoyed with Avi for his post back around page 30 where he discusses how their best strategy is to keep quiet. I PMd him about this but he refused to go back and edit his post -- I think he thinks it is constructive somehow.

One thing I have noticed is that I do not believe jadzia's first language is English -- I think she is from Canada and a native French speaker. She tends to make grammar errors every few posts. So I would rule her out as EC. I also think Maine-iac fits neither of the EC profiles.


From Avi, June 2nd 7:53 PM

:-?

If I'm guessing correctly that you are Mulan, then you should have left the post up there. Then you could have claimed you were kidding - which is what I thought you were doing.

By deleting it, you now may very well have outed yourself- AND WE DON'T NEED THE EC KNOWING THAT :(

If you truly are Mulan, it may be best if we lynch you while there are still 2 EC, so we can get a new anonymouse slayer. Otherwise, EC may just wait until one goes, and then off you.

If you're not Mulan, then we're fine :)

DO NOT RESPOND TO ME OR ANYONE ELSE WHO ASKS IF YOU ARE OR ARE NOT MULAN - I AM NOT EC - BUT YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING AND A PM SUCH AS THIS IS A PRIME WAY TO FERRET OUT YOUR IDENTITY.

P.S. Avi appears to be a very smart guy. But no, I am not Mulan. Of course, I didn't tell him this, but sent him the same message I send everyone (in full caps and short sentences), thanking him for his message, and that it is forwarded to the ghosts and considered


From Rocky, June 3rd 8:41AM

Just to be safe, you should be careful about using code. You don't want to give too much to the EC.

I don't know a lot of the players in this game, but when I saw the code correspondence, one player came to mind immediately as a slayer candidate. If you are that player, I hope that the EC doesn't think the same way that I do!


I hope I am not the person thought of- I don't use code at work, so I think he is thinking of someone else, and I have never demonstrated any knowledge of coding on the RF. In any case, I think I'll end up divulging which student I am to one ghost one of these days (probably late next week, or the week after that), meanwhile, maybe make a poll in the ghost forum where you can all guess who I am. :D :wink:


From Ahow, June 3rd 11:10AM

YOU HAVE BEEN CHOSEN AS SLAYER BAIT. PLEASE POST YOUR DEATH SCENE WHEN IT IS CONVENIENT FOR YOU. IF YOU ARE INNOCENT, I APOLOGIZE AND HOPE YOU WILL BE A CONTRIBUTING MEMBER TO OUR LOVELY GHOST FORUM.Quite alright. I was actually hoping to be slain by the slayer and not the dirty EC. I can now continue my story from last game. I will post my death scene sometime this afternoon or this evening. I will let Mr. P know my intentions as well...

Happy to help. But if you ever do feel mad at me, take out your anger at the ghosts. I gave them (which you should now be able to see) three choices on who I should hit, and no one got back to me....


From Rocky, June 3rd 1:31PM

Cho Da posted to the game thread shortly after I stated that he'd been uncharacteristically quiet. He doesn't seem the defensive sort, but it's worth noting.

Also, Mulan and Will Durant are sounding more like EC. It could be a cover up to throw the students off of the track if one of them end up being EC. Their banter seems a little contrived. I'm not moving them too far up my suspect list, but again it seems suspicious.


From Gandalf, June 3rd 2:16PM

No, I haven't lost my mind with this public post
http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=560373#560373,
which seems to give good advice to the EC.

It's a direct trap for them. If they are dumb enough to tell the sleeper who one of them is, they'll regret it. Midway through the next round of student deliberations, I'm going to ask, in the public thread "Did any EC tell you you are the sleeper? If so, tell us now, and we'll kill you now before you become foul and despicable, guaranteeing you a permanent and honored spot on the student team, and you're able to identify at least one of the EC sum to us."

I tried to get 4Sigma or AllClear to cooperate with me in setting this trap. They declined, thinking it had so low a chance of success (I agree). Still, when urysohn gave me the opening, I had to give it a try.

Urysohn's 2/3 chance that an EC dies first ignores the case that the sleeper intentionally dies first.

Too bad about ahow. I had no feelings about his being student or EC. A reasonable shot, and most of our shots are going to miss.

Leela
06-07-2004, 12:13 AM
This message is being copied to Leela, with instructions to post it, so other ghosts can help in deciding what to do.

Hello 4Sigma. Anyway, another perk of knowing for sure that you will never turn from sleeper into EC and betray the students- I can now talk to you without having to be Captain Morgan. :D :wink:

I will be happy to use the codes you pm'd a while back. I know the cereal meanings, the unfortunate part is that I don't know what kind of pm to suspicious people you would like me to send. I can forward it Asynch, if you like, with instructions that he should only forward it to another "most likely innocent" student if I, the slayer, is killed. That way if Asynch is killed next, someone can continue to know the code, I guess. If you would like me to forward the grocery code pm, the last pm you sent me which explains why he should have it, as well as instructions to forward it to an innocent student if the slayer is killed, or if he thinks it will help somehow, please tell Leela (head ghost) to start her next post in the thread with the word "Yes". If the ghosts decide this is not a good idea, tell Leela to start with the word "No". Of course, if you would like to hide this code, you can make the first words of the post as "Yes, we do try to factor in the students decisions, but..." or "No one should be voting really early...." or something like that. I'll only care about the first word of the post.

Keep in mind that if the first word is "No", I won't know what aspect is unacceptable, or what I missed, so we may have to scrap the code idea. I can't think of any better way to work that, unfortunately. I am kind of leaning towards preferring it that way, since I am not sure it is a good thing to have codes like this in the hands of students that may be already EC, or change into EC from the sleeper when an EC is killed.

Later tonight will be a post describing a new code to tell me which two, three, or four people the ghosts are considering for lynching. Thanks in advance for all your help.

Your neighborhood slayer



Please post this as always, Leela. The most important message is the first one, from 4sigma, where he reccomends a code idea...

From 4Sigma, June 4 4:24AM

I have been sending a lot of PMs back and forth with asynch, since we are convinced of each others' innocence. I am thinking that if/when I become a ghost, I would perhaps like to have the ability to coordinate with him.

It may be valuable to ask certain living players to send PMs on behalf of the ghosts and send the ghosts a summary of what they find out. I believe there was a code for that in the "grocery" system. So I am wondering if you think it makes sense to set up some sort of system like this. The key would be given to just a handful of "most likely innocent" students.

Alternatively, if the ghosts have a way to communicate this to you, you could send a PM to these students asking them to send PMs, etc. However, we must face the reality that we will not have a slayer forever, and thus should prepare for the eventuality that the ghosts may wish to communicate with the living without the benefit of the slayer as an intermediary.

So, fellow ghosts, I responded to this in a message sent to Leela and 4Sigma. Let me know (through Leela) if his plan is a go or not.


From BC, June 4 10:02AM


Sunny and Cubedbee may be EC. I asked several people if they were interested in seeing the preliminary model I was working on, and the two of them have not responded, which suggests to me that they may not be interested in knowing the students' optimal strategy. While I initially defended Sunny, she(?) has seemed very flaky since, and Cubedbee seems to have enough of a mathematical background that I would expect this to be of interest to him/her.

Just a few thoughts...

I am working with 4Sigma and Gandalf on the model via PMs. There are some odd results that I want to check with 4S before I present them, however; I do not believe that he is EC.


From Rocky, June 5 11:43AM

Make sure that the ghosts give 4sigma a warm welcome! He didn't have a chance to see their ethereal realm last game. He's a loss for the students, but a gain for our cause, IMO!

I wanted to send this to let you all know that I still DO NOT suspect All Clear as EC. I posted a suggestion of his guilt just to get his name out there. I don't see a bandwagon following me on this and leading to his lynching (as we'll listen to the ghosts/slayer's suggestion for lynching anyway). But, I didn't want him to fly under the radar and possibly attract the EC's attention as a sure-fire innocent student.

I just wanted to make that clear since I think that he's very likely innocent.


From Sunny, June 5th 3:34PM

Hey there, I don't think Werewolf and Kenshiro (and maybe we should include RedSoxFan) are ECs either, could you inform them (this is the most effective way I can think of, instead of me pm'ing all my reasons and trying to convince them I am not EC) that we are all working together here? thanks!

I'm also pm'ing cubedbee about this, as well as 4sigma/the ghosts and EK.

Just FYI, between me and EK, to keep you in the loop of my sudden change of vote:

I'm having real trust issues with you here. It shouldn't matter what Gandalf thinks but for the record, he is wrong. You and I both recognize that Mulan probably is the sleeper, if she is among the three EC. Therefore it makes no sense to hit her now as she will be identified as an innocent student, because she would only be activated EC once an EC is killed.

Please vote Will Durant now.

Don't expect me to vote with you if you don't vote with me.

Ok, here, we need to talk.

I wanted to talk to you even before you voted, but you seemed to be not listening to me. I never said we should do anything to Mulan right now. But if you read my prior pm, I have indicated that, while we both believe Mulan might be the sleeper, I actually have noticed how BC has been trying to protect her, instead of Will. Now, are you saying Will seems more likely than BC? I have noticed, twice, how BC would immediately say something after Mulan to protect her slip, even though he hasn't posted that much. I have to re-read the thread but I don't believe Will is anything but just an innocent student who's jumped on the bandwagon of believing I'm EC.

In general, I trust you, and don't believe you're EC. Maybe it's just your personality that is pretty stubborn and heavy-handed. I could vote for Will also, but when I'm not doing something I'm fully convinced of, I myself can seem inconsistent to other students and students/ghosts I am pm'ing, and need to be careful about this. So, maybe we can come to an understanding here. 1. Convince me about Will. Because I really think it is BC more than Will, 2. Talk to me about the trust issue, if you still have one. I just talked to cubed and, not sure if you guys have influenced each other, but he thinks the same, that will is more likely to be EC than BC. So fine.

Just posted my vote EK, sorry to hesitate a little on ya--mostly it's just I was fully convinced. This is the first time in this game I'm not going exactly with what I think--but I'm not sure what I think anyways, so Will is fine, and Will it is. :D


From Rocky, June 5th 4:47PM

Here's a stupid thought for you.

I'm not on the EC. A very small proof of this, but 100% true, is that I do not know how to load an avatar. And EC1 and EC2 both have avatars.

It's funny because, as I scan through posts in this thread, it looks to me like I'm the only one who doesn't have an avatar. For the life of me, I can't figure out how to load one. Then I thought...hmmmm, maybe that's worth pointing out to the ghosts.

Anyway, just a random thought before I head out for an afternoon hike.


From Sunny- this appears to be posted in the main thread as well. June 6 4:23PM

Remember that to convince you, I offered my vote next round. It would be difficult to do this more times as I have a limited number of votes each round. We have four votes up against Will now. That should be enough to catch the ghost's and student's attention.

Or, maybe, even to let them know that we are all talking and that I'm probably not EC? I guess I just don't like being nominated to be lynched. :(
In all honesty, I love watching you dance around nominations! :lol:

Gee. Thanks. Glad to be a source of entertainment around here. ;)

The question of your chat with EC1 is a big debate. Do you recall the others on chat at the time? I'm looking for two or three specific names but don't want to lead the eyewitness. Could you tell me and include your current thoughts on their possibility as EC?

To put your mind at ease, I don't think you are a serious possibility to be lynched by the students this round. As always, I could be wrong.

Yes. I've sent cubedbee a whole bunch of things (as well as the slayer) with my guesses (which I'll try find and forward to you). Although they are being changed. I am no longer sure if Karma is EC. Nor am I sure of Rocky. Ironically, they were my prime candidates.

Otherwise, still not sure about BC. Not sure about Gandalf. Who are you suspecting?


From Sunny, June 6th 4:37PM

Just want to tell you that, I am losing track of who I suspect. I'm not sure about Karma Police anymore, neither am I sure about Rocky. BC seems more innocent now. I'm still not sure about Gandalf. And still would like to see Mulan lynched. The information I've given to the ghosts are still facts, concerning the EC1 chat etc and all the other reasons I've given. But I think I'll take a back seat and watch how other students guess. Most likely, anyways, I'll be lynched soon myself. But truly, at this point, I'm at a loss with who to suspect.

Thanks for listening to all my crap. I've tried. But I guess I'm not very good at this game. :(

I agree- she isn't very good at this game... But it has made the game much more fun, I think. :D :wink:


From Sunny, June 6 6:21PM

I am no longer sure if Karma is EC. Nor am I sure of Rocky. Ironically, they were my prime candidates.

Otherwise, still not sure about BC. Not sure about Gandalf. Who are you suspecting?
I sent the ghosts Karma last time BECAUSE OF YOU. Funny how the grapevine works, but others believe KP (as EC1) was who chatted with you, and I assumed that information came from you. To read you don't think much of KP being EC anymore is important to me.

You are making me focus more attention on BC. Now the way I understood it was, BC was with you on chat (as BC). Is that true? Do you remember BC and EC1 being on chat at the same time? If so, wouldn't that exclude BC (at least from being EC1). If not, what does that say about my sources of information? :shake:

I thought Gandalf acted like EC last game when he wasn't, so I don't want to jump the gun here. Isn't it funny that 4sigma was hit by the EC? I guess we don't need Gandalf to lead the ghost committee anymore! :roll:

I think the biggest thing is Mulan's sleeper post. Kudos, you were all over that. I wouldn't mind lynching her, but would like that to happen after Will so if he is EC, then we know if she is the sleeper.

I just simply go by what Karma himself says here. Although, not being around does not at all mean he's not EC. He could have been telling EC2 who they wanted to target. EC1 could have swapped with EC2. I don't know. But I did know that he was moving. But does that really make him not guilty? I don't know. Frankly, after studying and being defeated twice in chess and having some drinks, I am not sure I can reason very well at this moment.

BC was definitely in chat with me. In fact, in chat I had offered to pm the transcript of my conversation with EC1, and before I could even say that in chat (after I pm'd the transcript to those in chat), BC had already checked his pm. His speed of checking that was so fast, that I could not help but think he was EC.

Karma is still on the list. So is BC. So is Gandalf. So is Rocky. Although, I'm a little bewildered at this moment, especially after you said you might want to lynch me (along with others: werewolf, cho da, etc). That I'm not sure if I care anymore. :swear:

BTW, have you also gotten a pm from BC about a mathematical model???

Of course, I was not going to tell her if my student ID got anything, in case any of you were wondering if I am as dumb as EC1. :D :wink:



I would again like to use the code system where the ghosts determine the prime candidates for lynching, and post the people in code. I will then respond in a pm to Leela, informing her of which one I prefer (which will almost always be the first name (number) given to me. Last time the second name was Karma Police, and the third was Mulan. Let me say now that I see no strong reason to suspect Karma, and this is in contrast to Mulan, who has posted enough odd things that she was suspected quite early in my mind. Still, if Karma's name is the first given to me, he is ok in my book. I take for granted that all your combined minds can figure out more than me alone. Still, of course, please post the numbers like last time, so I know who is suspected.

How about this code for this time around- once again, we start from the top, but this time starting with 03 instead of 14. There will again be six digit numbers, with the format _ h h _ _ _ , where the second and third number correspond to the person the ghosts think are suspicious. Again, starting with the number "03" we have Ebenezer Kohl being 03, CubedBee being 04, until thing who would be 37. So again (to make sure Snafu understands) :D :wink: (just joking, Snafu- I hope I didn't mess up on what you were trying to tell me last time), if I see a post of "219420 531943", that means the ghosts are currently considering only two people, and would prefer Anonymouse, although the ghosts are also considering getting Werewolf.

Once I see the post, I'll pm Leela with what my thoughts are on those nominated, and you can then post the one that students should vote for.

4sigma
06-07-2004, 07:16 AM
Here are some of the PMs I've received that I think are relevant.

This first one is one I received from Avi at 8:42 a.m. on 1 Jun. It is in response to the PM I sent him regarding this post (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=30397&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=679)I had this discussion with Gandalf last night. For various reasons, I feel strongly now that he is NOT EC, and I shared with him my reasons for my response. I don't know if he agreed with it or not; he hasn't responded back yet.

No offense, but on the slight chance that you ARE EC, telling you why I posted would completely negate the purpose of that post. Suffice it to say that I KNOW why Gandalf did what he did, and my reaction was NOT without thought.


As I read between the lines in Gandalf's post, I believe he is taunting EC in an effort to make them provide a retort. If you were EC1 (and not necessarily terribly savvy....) would you want to let people think that the wizard had successfully shut you up?

I think it might be fruitful if you would care to edit your recent post so that it is not quite so obvious to EC1 and EC2 that their best strategy is to keep their mouths shut. They probably already know, but my sense is that your posting as it currently reads might tend to make them aware that their best strategy is to keep quieter, rather than to encourage them to become more vocal.

And you want them to become more vocal, right? ;)

Thanks,

-- 4σ

I asked Gandalf about what Avi said his reasons were, and Gandalf responded:

I also told him I thought it was helping the EC rather than students, but I do think it probably suggests he is student. If he were EC, he would have just told his partner to keep quiet, not posted.

We discussed it only after the fact, only after I told him that his post rather than mine was the ECish one. Had he asked me in advance, I would have suggested that he not post it.

He believes that his post will further goad the EC into responding. Maybe it will. It's not a serious problem for us.


This PM is from Mulan shortly after I suggested her in red for lynching in round 2:4sigma,

I don't believe your suggestions are correct. I for one am not EC. And I don't think Karma is either (that is something Sunny is spreading around). I hope I can trust you....

Though we should avoid killing the first ec until we are fairly sure the sleeper has been killed, maybe after 2 more rounds of killing innocent students... so we don't have to contend with a third EC.

Mu

The following is excerpted from one of Gandalf's PMs to me in response to BC's efforts to model the EC game. Note that BC had copied his PM to both myself and Gandalf. I will spare you all the technical details unless you want them. But the quote which I found telling was this one:

Has it been established whether, if there are 2 EC left and the EC pick off a slayer, the students should pass to avoid risking hitting an EC and thus insure getting a slayer back?I have not seen that discussed. It might well be a good idea. My model assumed they would not pass.

A discussed variation, probably unrealistic in practice: suppose the EC somehow deduces who the slayer is, while there are two living EC. Should the EC intentionally miss the slayer, until the point where there is only one living EC, hence no replacement slayer?

BC later notes: I also came across the strange but interesting result that it IS in the students' best interests to "pass" and insure revival of a slayer (if the EC hits the slayer and both original EC remain) UNLESS the number of students (possibly including a sleeper) was an exact multiple of 3 (?!?). It didn't change the probabilities much, and I will need to check everything with a fine-toothed comb, but I thought it was interesting. Even if it later turns out to be wrong.

Tomorrow (late) I intend to send my model, my assumptions, and some questions about "base cases" with fewer than 2 "pure" students remaining to several people, including you two; I've assumed randomness for more than 2 students left, although I don't know if that's safe yet. Anyway, the preliminary model is done, and the results jibe closely - the variance on simulation results would be about 1/2%, so we definitely are within a 95% confidence interval. I am in the process of verifying this but it would be stupid of him to lie, since he sent me a copy of his spreadsheet with all his calcs and assumptions. Assuming this is correct, I think this is a pretty strong sign that BC is not EC, for bringing up the issue and subsequently making it known that it is right for the students to pass sometimes.

Leela
06-07-2004, 12:35 PM
The following is what I've got with BC. He could be right--then Gandalf is totally suspicious. OR he's lying, then he's suspicious.

I actually am more and more suspicious of Gandalf guys. Can you slay him EC_Slayer? ;)


Similar post sent to other players:

I have begun to scratch the surface of the problem, and have consulted with a few other players on the mathematics/assumptions. In the next day or two I intend to summarize my thinking and the equations. I was wondering if you would like to be included when I PM my results?

Also, I was wondering who you suspect of being EC (or at least of acting suspiciously). I really don't have any theories yet, which is why I started to wonder what would happen if we all were acting randomly...


Hey, sorry I have been suspicious of you, that's why I didn't respond. I might include you with some of my pm's shortly. Keep me posted with what's going on and your results as well. Thanks!

Fair enough. I'm actually suspicious of Gandalf right now; he and 4sigma were acting as my "peer review". Then Gandalf decides this model may be of only marginal benefit, so he won't be spending any more time on it, and 4sigma gets whacked... I think the final conclusions may be more valuable than we think, and that somebody decided that the best way to suppress any results was to split 4sigma and myself up.
Hmm, what was the final conclusion of the model?? :-?

Leela
06-07-2004, 01:47 PM
Likely EC
1. Gandalf - He is speaking much less this game than the last, and his posts lean humorous rather than strategic this time. He seems to be taking the game a lot less seriously in general, and his continous taunting of the EC could very well be an act to deter suspicion from him.
2. Will Durant - Seems defensive to the point of hostility when people accuse him. Refused to change his vote to what the Slayer had decided. Name consistently comes up in my PMs with other students.
3. Avi -- Is being relatively quiet in this game compared to his general posting habits. I originally thought EC1’s witless prattle comment was clearly trying to frame Avi, but Avi’s defense where he tries to argue that any of us would use witless prattle is very weak. He may have spoken as EC1, thinking he sounded normal, and then realized from our responses that he didn’t.
4. Mulan – Not much to go on, but early in the game she had a conversation with Leela where she seems to have lied. She had led the game in the past, but denied knowledge of it. I don’t think that’s something you forget.
5. Rocky – He seems to be riding the Sunny bandwagon a little too hard, but given his behavior against 4sigma last game, he might just be like that.

Likely Innocent
1. Sunny – Her initial accidental “Death to the Students” had me suspecting her. However, her very vocal defense of herself, her lack of understanding about the finer points of the rules, and her continued PMs to me about the other students make me almost certain she is innocent.

4sigma
06-07-2004, 02:22 PM
A few more PMs I received this this morning (6/7)

Sorry I didn't respond to your PM earlier. I'm surprised the EC offed you so early, but you were one of the few players on my "definitely student" list so maybe it wasn't a terrible move on their part. Tear it up in the ghost forum.

I think I've posted this all in the thread, but my EC suspicion list contains Mulan, Rocky, Karma Police and Avi. Mainly because I've noticed them all make unsound (or just plain silly) strategy suggestions. There are a few more things I want to review later. Happy EC lynching!

I know she is not the most reliable source, but Sunny can verify that I was moving last week. I certainly did not have the time to be a member of the EC. I know that isn't really evidence, but you should consider it when determining who you think should be lynched.

I find it suspicious that Gandalf backed out of the peer review process so late and then suddenly you get whacked. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but I think someone thought splintering our little group of three was the best way to keep any results from being used...

A part of me hopes to join the ghosts soon so we can finish this work. I think it's an interesting problem, but that we haven't gotten quite as deep as we need to.

Now that you're a ghost, I'll PM this to you.

My suspicions, as of now, rest with BC, Kaput Shkur, and Maine-iac.

BC, since my arrival to this board, has been very reticent, only popping up when some abstruse problem in combinatorics or number theory got posted. Why the sudden interest, and abnormally vocal, in this game?

Also ther is the matter of his PM - where he asked a bunch of use if we would be interested in the results of his model and modeling process. Why PM this, ask in public to be PM'd if one is interested - or even better - just post the model and results.

So why PM? Perhaps for a throwaway line at the end of the message which read "Also, I was wondering who you suspect of being EC (or at least of acting suspiciously). I really don't have any theories yet, which is why I started to wonder what would happen if we all were acting randomly..."

Now, if the entire purpose of the excercise was to model "random" and stochastic behavior, why the interest in my feelings as to EC?

I'm thinking this was more of a fishing expedition than a mathematical excercise.

Kaput Shakur is more of a hunch issue. Gandalf was correct - "witless prattle" is a figure of speech that can be used to identify someone. On this forum, the ONLY other time "witless prattle" has been used was by Cannonball. Here:
http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=452166&highlight=witless+prattle#452166

and here: http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3197&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=witless+prattle&start=1799

Now Cannonball is not playing under his name, so I was trying to identify which "new" name may be someone with a long history on the RF - an dI believe it's Kaput. Also - EC1 did make the mistake of posting outside of "Games" here - http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=31761&highlight=
another clue - someone who is cognizant of the Hagberd phenomenon.

Maine-iac has been preturnaturally silent - thus my suspicions.

The "Bwa haa" of EC2 is not that identifiable in and of itself, but I'm working on it.

Will Durant is my top suspect. If EC, I think the slayer should hit Mulan as the sleeper next.

Avi is being framed as EC1. Perhaps he is, I don’t know. Otherwise, I think someone with good knowledge of Avi is EC.

I no longer suspect karma police. There were two reasons previously. First he gave good reason to suggest he wasn’t the slayer, which left a bad taste in my mouth. However, with the slayer change, his slip no longer matters, so he is off the hook on this count. The other reason was some suspected KP of being EC1 on chat with Sunny. I have my doubts on the credibility of my sources in this regard, so I’ll let KP skate.

I disagree with the strategy of lynching Sunny or Mulan for more information. I don’t think ghosts are more likely to give information.

I now hereby believe BC might be innocent too...

Let's lynch Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OR Rocky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The model itself has been mostly constructed but hasn't been fully analyzed or debugged. However, one thing I wanted to explore was the possibility that if EC gets the slayer in a given round when the two original EC remain, perhaps the students should NOT lynch anyone that round - usually they would get an innocent student. But would the potential benefit of "getting lucky" and hitting an EC member or the sleeper outweigh the "cost" - that if an EC were killed that round, they would NOT be able to resurrect a slayer.

It seems that in some cases, the answer is "yes". There are other considerations as well - such as "if it is known that there are 3 students and 1 EC, the students should not lynch anyone because they have a 1-in-4 chance of hitting the EC; if they "pass", they have a 1-in-3 chance of getting the EC after the EC has lynched a student".

At any rate, like I said, my "peer-review" link has been completely severed. I may try to drag a few other living students into this for help, or even get myself lynched (like 4sigma tried) so we can go back to collaborating, but since I haven't decided yet, I don't want to volunteer yet.

I may ask to be lynched so we can continue our collaboration. I haven't decided whether I think that would be the best course of action, but I wanted to let you know I was considering it.

Here's my correspondence to BC. Maybe I don't suspect him anymore. Many other students are suspecting Gandalf. Some of the students want to lynch Will this time. But next time, let's all vote for Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also think, in case I'm killed by the EC (but at this rate, I think they're waiting for me to be lynched so maybe I'll be safe for a while), we should lynch:

Rocky
Mulan

and then see if we get any EC there, otherwise we should continue to look at:

Avi
Karma
BC

The model itself has been mostly constructed but hasn't been fully analyzed or debugged. However, one thing I wanted to explore was the possibility that if EC gets the slayer in a given round when the two original EC remain, perhaps the students should NOT lynch anyone that round - usually they would get an innocent student. But would the potential benefit of "getting lucky" and hitting an EC member or the sleeper outweigh the "cost" - that if an EC were killed that round, they would NOT be able to resurrect a slayer.

It seems that in some cases, the answer is "yes". There are other considerations as well - such as "if it is known that there are 3 students and 1 EC, the students should not lynch anyone because they have a 1-in-4 chance of hitting the EC; if they "pass", they have a 1-in-3 chance of getting the EC after the EC has lynched a student".

At any rate, like I said, my "peer-review" link has been completely severed. I may try to drag a few other living students into this for help, or even get myself lynched (like 4sigma tried) so we can go back to collaborating, but since I haven't decided yet, I don't want to volunteer yet.

Ok, some of the students want to lynch Will this time. But next time, let's all vote for Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I've thought about it, thought about a death scene, and decided I'll volunteer. If (and only if) you and the ghosts think I would be a useful member of the ghost forum, and that the model we've been working on will be useful and will advance significantly more quickly with the two of us working together, then please feel free to recommend me for lynching/slaying (of course, also if you think I'm EC or the sleeper - but it goes without saying that I am not. Except that I said it... :argue: :wink: :crazy: ). I will not try to start a bandwagon on my own (I have a few people whom I could probably convince to vote for me without the ghosts' blessing, and could probably start an avalanche that way if I wanted to) but will leave the decision and my "life" in the capable hands of y'all.

Sorry to see you go, but great death scene! Actually, mine also starts at the office... I hope it doesn't look like too much of a ripoff, although I came up with the concept independently...

Leela
06-07-2004, 04:29 PM
Why Cho Da, though? I would think Rocky and Avi are more likely. And even though I don't suspect Karma as much now, I'd still put him up before Cho Da. And Mulan. And I can go on and on...

Why Cho Da?

Truthfully, I don't have a good reason for Cho Da except that he/she was the first individual to point a finger at me.

In the interest of full disclosure: when you didn't respond to my offer on the model, I sent a message to EC_Slayer saying that I was beginning to suspect you and Avi (who also didn't respond and, based on past experience, has the interest and knowledge to have helped). But I'm not suspicious enough of Avi to change from Cho Da, at least not yet...

Yeah, I was suspecting you too. :D

Well, there can only be two EC's, and a sleeper, whom let's just say is Mulan. So it's either Gandalf and Rocky, Gandalf and Rocky, or Gandalf and Avi. If you ever get to go over to the ghost forum, that's kinda what I've come down to...

I no longer suspect you. I hope you aren't. ;)

4sigma
06-07-2004, 06:41 PM
more PMs I received this afternoon.

It wouldn't be a new day unless Sunny changed her mind....
The following exchange with BC, do you really think he's innocent? I tend to think so, but i could be stupid...

BTW... I was curious how I raised your suspicions; if you don't want to say, that's fine. Was it the "chat" thing? I was at work, interpreted some things that a few people were saying as "suggestive", and decided not to go back into chat (while I was at work) if either of them was in there.

I'm not much into chat, and especially paranoid about being involved in it during work, so at the first sign of trouble, I bolted. Not trying to censor anyone in chat, just not interested in participating (esp. from work) under certain circumstances...

Mostly because you posted right after Mulan's slip. Then I remembered you were in chat too that day when EC1 was there.

Fair enough :-) 4Sigma was there that day, too :)

Yeah, and Rocky, Karma later, and Avi has gone on chat before, soo... All were on the suspect list. :)
========================================

Finally, 4sig, you didn't do any of the emoticons that I told you to! :evil:

I'm not sure if you need me to answer anything from your latest public post there. But the food eating thing is kinda odd, and our EC_Slayer thinks the ghost forum can be contaminated?!? How?!? Hmm....

I'm more and more lost as the game goes by. Trying to help whenever I can but, getting more and more clueless as we go....

As with the EC sleeper identity? Just went strictly by what has been posted, then I thought Mulan slipped. That's all I've got.

Of course, that doesn't stop her from continuing on and now becoming suspicious of someone else.... The first part of her post is in response to a request that she sent me earlier, asking that I indicate who she should vote for lynching by posting certain emoticons. I posted some random ones just for fun....I could be wrong, so of course you want to incorporate everybody else's suggestions, but a lot of my guesses have changed over the weekend:

:D :oops: :duh: :evil: :P :o

What was this, are you telling me to do everything now, hey we can't possible do all of the above!!!!!! :evil:

;)

right now I only suspect Gandalf, Rocky, and maybe Avi.

For many reasons. Gandalf has acted weird, at first cubedbee said that, then others who played last time, I wouldn't have known, but then even I felt he was strange, even his flirt/jokes with me were pretty strange or strained IMHO. In general, it felt like he was trying to get away from suspicion so he joked with me, cuz I have been pretty carefree I suppose in this thread. His refusal to do the stapler vote, his unhelpfulness to me in pm (which is extremely unusual), his recommendations and sometimes accusations of me have all been not very intelligent nor rational I thought.

Rocky has always been on my suspect list, and as the other players have dropped out of my suspect list (Karma, for example, BC, snafu, those were all those who were in chat that day), Rocky is the only one who continues to behave suspiciously, and he has behaved suspiciously since day one. His recommendations also have been strange. Some of his posts to start people discussing the game were also suspicious. But hey I could be wrong about him too..

Avi, the prattle remark, his (as other innocent students have pointed out) non-prolific posting given who he is, his not very actively participating in helping to get the EC (esp given who he is and how analytical and anal he can be in solving problems, and has always been extremely helpful when I ask him any question about anything, exams, troubles on this site, etc). In addition, he also has been into chat in the past (even if he didn't log into chat as Avi during the EC1 incident), and so I would not be surprised at all if he was EC1 and did that. The thing is, Avi has been the strongest supporter of me. And while Mr. Penguini (who knows I'm innocent and is also a really good friend irl) was quite sympathetic about the students jumping on the bandwagon about lynching me after my stupid typo, Avi could have also felt bad for me and did what he did in chat. So all in all, Avi is becoming a suspect now.

But again, my thoughts always change, as I talk with more students and see more clues.

Thanks for listening to my rambling! And DEATH TO THE EC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ekohl seems to think Mulan is the sleeper due to the followingSleeper Mulan (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=30397&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=629)

I hope your post was in regard to another sleeper other than Mulan. We've been through this twice on the thread. Read her three posts in the link. The EC PMed her that she is the sleeper. The third post makes that clear.

You may ask me directly on the thread if you have remaining questions about this. I've made it clear on the thread that I think Mulan is the sleeper. Am I missing the boat here? I thought Mulan made it clear that she was joking. Do some people think she actually got a PM from EC saying that she is the sleeper? Even if she did, do we believe it?

Rocky seems to think that Butters is trying to talk to us in code about the "Seven = Gandalf" thing.Just a note.

It looks like you've put in place a type of code to communicate with some of the living students. I hope that it helps our search for the EC, but you should make sure that those living students to reply via PM only. Any posts to the EC thread that contain code or attempt to give information to the ghosts could be construed by the students to be a legit post and a potential clue. It may lead some of us astray.

I mention this because Butters post about Gandalf and Seven makes no sense to me. He may be communicating with you (or the ghosts in general), but to me it's just gibberish since there is no "Seven" on the member list.

Leela
06-07-2004, 08:22 PM
I liked what was written in the main thread, regarding that people should write me if they are forwarding their message to you as well. That way you can avoid all the double messages gotten, from me and from them. I saw the message in the room saying that I should not be giving 4sigmas code to asynchronous- I am going to check 4sigmas public post later to see if he is trying to give me hints on modifying that or not (I'll check with the ghosts first before doing anything, don't worry). In any case, here is what I have gotten last night and today.

From Mulan, June 7th 8:30AM

I've already shared this 4sigma, but it bears repeating. I think Will is EC. In fact, I'm almost sure of it. He is not posting in the style I'm used to, it is like he is afraid of participating much in case he slips up. He refused to follow the slayer in round 1 for no good reason. He also posts to the thread very close to when the executions happen.

My other suspicions are Cho Da, Cubedbee, and thing, but none of these are strong despite my baiting of Cho Da in the thread.

I feel Rocky, Kenshiro, Gandalf, Ebenezer, and Sunny are all innocent students. So am I.

I don't have suspicions on the id of the sleeper. I hope it is not me. I think EC would vote for lynching the sleeper since they would think we would think that they would never vote for their sleeper. That makes me a suspect since Will has voted for me.

I thank you for your help.

Mu


From Rocky, June 7th 9:16AM

I don't know if you've seen my post yet, but I think that it would be helpful for the ghosts to give us a time frame for contributing PM's and suggestions for this round's lynching. Or, equivalently, tell students when the ghosts' decision for lynching will be posted to the forum.

Of course, we can continue to PM and post, but the ghost's decision will have to be based on all available information at some time prior to the lynching decision.

ps - I don't know how to send PM's to multiple people, so I am only sending this to you for you to pass on to the ghosts.


Maybe it is a good idea to give a time frame. Whatever you ghosts think. In any case, a reminder to please post (in code discussed earlier) who the top suspects are, in order. I'll message back, and make sure you don't hit the slayer.

I got a pm from Ebenezer on June 7, 9:36AM which he said was already sent to you. Just wanted to confirm it actually was sent.


From Sunny, June 7th 10:09AM

The following is what I've got with BC. He could be right--then Gandalf is totally suspicious. OR he's lying, then he's suspicious.

I actually am more and more suspicious of Gandalf guys. Can you slay him EC_Slayer? ;)


Similar post sent to other players:

I have begun to scratch the surface of the problem, and have consulted with a few other players on the mathematics/assumptions. In the next day or two I intend to summarize my thinking and the equations. I was wondering if you would like to be included when I PM my results?

Also, I was wondering who you suspect of being EC (or at least of acting suspiciously). I really don't have any theories yet, which is why I started to wonder what would happen if we all were acting randomly...


Hey, sorry I have been suspicious of you, that's why I didn't respond. I might include you with some of my pm's shortly. Keep me posted with what's going on and your results as well. Thanks!

Fair enough. I'm actually suspicious of Gandalf right now; he and 4sigma were acting as my "peer review". Then Gandalf decides this model may be of only marginal benefit, so he won't be spending any more time on it, and 4sigma gets whacked... I think the final conclusions may be more valuable than we think, and that somebody decided that the best way to suppress any results was to split 4sigma and myself up.
Hmm, what was the final conclusion of the model?? :-?


And from Sunny at 10:19AM

I now hereby believe BC might be innocent too...

Let's lynch Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OR Rocky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The model itself has been mostly constructed but hasn't been fully analyzed or debugged. However, one thing I wanted to explore was the possibility that if EC gets the slayer in a given round when the two original EC remain, perhaps the students should NOT lynch anyone that round - usually they would get an innocent student. But would the potential benefit of "getting lucky" and hitting an EC member or the sleeper outweigh the "cost" - that if an EC were killed that round, they would NOT be able to resurrect a slayer.

It seems that in some cases, the answer is "yes". There are other considerations as well - such as "if it is known that there are 3 students and 1 EC, the students should not lynch anyone because they have a 1-in-4 chance of hitting the EC; if they "pass", they have a 1-in-3 chance of getting the EC after the EC has lynched a student".

At any rate, like I said, my "peer-review" link has been completely severed. I may try to drag a few other living students into this for help, or even get myself lynched (like 4sigma tried) so we can go back to collaborating, but since I haven't decided yet, I don't want to volunteer yet.


And from Sunny at 10:35AM

Here's my correspondence to BC. Maybe I don't suspect him anymore. Many other students are suspecting Gandalf. Some of the students want to lynch Will this time. But next time, let's all vote for Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also think, in case I'm killed by the EC (but at this rate, I think they're waiting for me to be lynched so maybe I'll be safe for a while), we should lynch:

Rocky
Mulan

and then see if we get any EC there, otherwise we should continue to look at:

Avi
Karma
BC

The model itself has been mostly constructed but hasn't been fully analyzed or debugged. However, one thing I wanted to explore was the possibility that if EC gets the slayer in a given round when the two original EC remain, perhaps the students should NOT lynch anyone that round - usually they would get an innocent student. But would the potential benefit of "getting lucky" and hitting an EC member or the sleeper outweigh the "cost" - that if an EC were killed that round, they would NOT be able to resurrect a slayer.

It seems that in some cases, the answer is "yes". There are other considerations as well - such as "if it is known that there are 3 students and 1 EC, the students should not lynch anyone because they have a 1-in-4 chance of hitting the EC; if they "pass", they have a 1-in-3 chance of getting the EC after the EC has lynched a student".

At any rate, like I said, my "peer-review" link has been completely severed. I may try to drag a few other living students into this for help, or even get myself lynched (like 4sigma tried) so we can go back to collaborating, but since I haven't decided yet, I don't want to volunteer yet.

Ok, some of the students want to lynch Will this time. But next time, let's all vote for Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A short break from Sunny, with CubedBee sending this on the 7th, 11:45AM

Likely EC
1. Gandalf - He is speaking much less this game than the last, and his posts lean humorous rather than strategic this time. He seems to be taking the game a lot less seriously in general, and his continous taunting of the EC could very well be an act to deter suspicion from him.
2. Will Durant - Seems defensive to the point of hostility when people accuse him. Refused to change his vote to what the Slayer had decided. Name consistently comes up in my PMs with other students.
3. Avi -- Is being relatively quiet in this game compared to his general posting habits. I originally thought EC1’s witless prattle comment was clearly trying to frame Avi, but Avi’s defense where he tries to argue that any of us would use witless prattle is very weak. He may have spoken as EC1, thinking he sounded normal, and then realized from our responses that he didn’t.
4. Mulan – Not much to go on, but early in the game she had a conversation with Leela where she seems to have lied. She had led the game in the past, but denied knowledge of it. I don’t think that’s something you forget.
5. Rocky – He seems to be riding the Sunny bandwagon a little too hard, but given his behavior against 4sigma last game, he might just be like that.

Likely Innocent
1. Sunny – Her initial accidental “Death to the Students” had me suspecting her. However, her very vocal defense of herself, her lack of understanding about the finer points of the rules, and her continued PMs to me about the other students make me almost certain she is innocent.


Back to Sunny, June 7th 2:42 PM


Why Cho Da, though? I would think Rocky and Avi are more likely. And even though I don't suspect Karma as much now, I'd still put him up before Cho Da. And Mulan. And I can go on and on...

Why Cho Da?

Truthfully, I don't have a good reason for Cho Da except that he/she was the first individual to point a finger at me.

In the interest of full disclosure: when you didn't respond to my offer on the model, I sent a message to EC_Slayer saying that I was beginning to suspect you and Avi (who also didn't respond and, based on past experience, has the interest and knowledge to have helped). But I'm not suspicious enough of Avi to change from Cho Da, at least not yet...

Yeah, I was suspecting you too. :D

Well, there can only be two EC's, and a sleeper, whom let's just say is Mulan. So it's either Gandalf and Rocky, Gandalf and Rocky, or Gandalf and Avi. If you ever get to go over to the ghost forum, that's kinda what I've come down to...

I no longer suspect you. I hope you aren't. ;)


I no longer suspect you. I hope you aren't. ;)

Thank you :wink: Actually, I kind of hope I'm the sleeper, because

(a) If I'm lynched, the students have an easier time winning, and
(b) If I'm fingered (without it being public knowledge that I volunteered) an EC member might carelessly expose themselves in an effort to "protect" me. Then we get 2 for the price of 1, as it were.

I don't suspect you anymore, either. I hope I'm not wrong :)

:lol: well I'm not short of people who suspect me, either ;) But if they do, it's pretty stupid, IMHO.


Once more from Sunny, June 7th 3:51 PM (I think she likes me :wink: )

right now I only suspect Gandalf, Rocky, and maybe Avi.

For many reasons. Gandalf has acted weird, at first cubedbee said that, then others who played last time, I wouldn't have known, but then even I felt he was strange, even his flirt/jokes with me were pretty strange or strained IMHO. In general, it felt like he was trying to get away from suspicion so he joked with me, cuz I have been pretty carefree I suppose in this thread. His refusal to do the stapler vote, his unhelpfulness to me in pm (which is extremely unusual), his recommendations and sometimes accusations of me have all been not very intelligent nor rational I thought.

Rocky has always been on my suspect list, and as the other players have dropped out of my suspect list (Karma, for example, BC, snafu, those were all those who were in chat that day), Rocky is the only one who continues to behave suspiciously, and he has behaved suspiciously since day one. His recommendations also have been strange. Some of his posts to start people discussing the game were also suspicious. But hey I could be wrong about him too..

Avi, the prattle remark, his (as other innocent students have pointed out) non-prolific posting given who he is, his not very actively participating in helping to get the EC (esp given who he is and how analytical and anal he can be in solving problems, and has always been extremely helpful when I ask him any question about anything, exams, troubles on this site, etc). In addition, he also has been into chat in the past (even if he didn't log into chat as Avi during the EC1 incident), and so I would not be surprised at all if he was EC1 and did that. The thing is, Avi has been the strongest supporter of me. And while Mr. Penguini (who knows I'm innocent and is also a really good friend irl) was quite sympathetic about the students jumping on the bandwagon about lynching me after my stupid typo, Avi could have also felt bad for me and did what he did in chat. So all in all, Avi is becoming a suspect now.

But again, my thoughts always change, as I talk with more students and see more clues.

Thanks for listening to my rambling! And DEATH TO THE EC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4sigma
06-08-2004, 10:39 AM
More news from Mithrandir:I am sending this just for your consideration, but you are welcome to post it in the ghost forum if you wish.

As you know, and as was discussed with you and All Clear in advance, I tried to lure the EC into outing one or both of their ids to the sleeper, with the intent of then getting the sleeper to voluntarily die a student.

After my mistake of posting from the wrong account today, I see no value in my trying to get the sleeper to admit their status. Such a post from me would only fuel more speculation that I am EC, and even if most students and ghosts think I am student, if the sleeper thinks I am EC then what little chance the trap had will evaporate.

OTOH, you originally declined to avoid jeopardizing your credibility. Now, your status in this game is known. You could post, without indicating any collaboration, an open message to the sleeper, that if the EC had made itself known in the ways Ebenezer Kohl or I suggested, the sleeper should identify himself, die now to lock into a spot on the student side, and then denounce the known EC.

I can't see how it could hurt, and there's some small chance of success. But it's up to you.

Also Sunny manages to speak again. Sunny and I were the only ones logged on to the RO last night around 12:30 a.m. Pacific time. I joined her over in chat briefly, though I did not say anything specific about what we are doing in the EC game, since I understand that to be against the rules. Shortly after our chat she sent me this post:just wanna say, althogh I'm trying to help, sorry if my clues may be pretty confusing lately or leading the ghosts astray! :x I guess incorporating everyone's is a good thing. Hopefully a collective wisdom is good but I tend to think individually we're more sound and the mob is always pretty irrational.

Another from Sunny this morning. Does this woman ever sleep? :-?
Kenshiro also sent me a copy of the same PM.
Here's my correspondence to BC. Maybe I don't suspect him anymore. Many other students are suspecting Gandalf. Some of the students want to lynch Will this time. But next time, let's all vote for Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also think, in case I'm killed by the EC (but at this rate, I think they're waiting for me to be lynched so maybe I'll be safe for a while), we should lynch:

Rocky
Mulan

and then see if we get any EC there, otherwise we should continue to look at:

Avi
Karma
BC


I don't think Gandalf has done anything suspicious. Every single thing he's said in the thread has been logical and in the students best interest. The same can't be said for Rocky, Mulan, Avi or Karma.

We should also vote for anyone who hasn't been making votes in the thread. There are quite a few people like that...it's a easy way for the EC to hide and blend in...and if we kill a student, we don't want people who aren't participating or giving any clues around anyway. Waiting for the ghosts to make a choice is a likely excuse, but not one that we should allow.

I agree with you on Rocky, Mulan, I guess I have yet to see what Avi has said (he really hasn't said much), and Karma isn't really that off no?

I'm getting more and more confused as to who to accuse. I'll be out tomorrow morning too so I'll just wait and see.

Gandalf seems suspcious to me for various reasons, the following is what I've posted to the ghosts. For many reasons. Gandalf has acted weird, at first cubedbee said that, then others who played last time, I wouldn't have known, but then even I felt he was strange, even his flirt/jokes with me were pretty strange or strained IMHO. In general, it felt like he was trying to get away from suspicion so he joked with me, cuz I have been pretty carefree I suppose in this thread. His refusal to do the stapler vote, his unhelpfulness to me in pm (which is extremely unusual), his recommendations and sometimes accusations of me have all been not very intelligent nor rational I thought.


Have you told the ghosts your thoughts? And the slayer? The slayer can slay the quiet ones too. And you never know, we could get an EC that way! :)

Leela
06-08-2004, 12:53 PM
I am not kidding about my suspicions of Gandalf. If you guys are considering him seriously, please have your next post to the thread begin with 3 words beginning with vowels. If not, please do the same with 3 words beginning with consonants.

Thanks,
KP


This seems more that a little strange to me.

4sigma
06-08-2004, 01:10 PM
Does he realize that we could respond to his request with "Vote: Karma Police" :D

4sigma
06-08-2004, 02:13 PM
Late news from Gandalf Stormcrow:
Sent to EC_slayer and 4Sigma (for all ghosts):
The crowning moment was a request that you survive longer than the Slayer.

I don't remember this...no wonder he's trying to be "quiet" :wink: this game.
I believe that was a PM to the ghosts. I read that and my jaw dropped! :o
Clearly this never happened. It does not pass the "sniff" test for believability. How could I possibly have packaged such a suggestion that the ghosts might buy it? Impossible. How could I possibly have packaged it so that they would not have lynched me right away? Impossible. But the ghosts didn't lynch me, the EC hit me.

I doesn't strike me as suspicious behavior on Ebenezer's part. Bizarre, but not suspicious. It's not credible enough to be EC. Plus, if he did not believe it happened, he would expect me, once lynched, to come after him. So it is his memory that is faulty.

Probably, he is thinking of one of these two things:
1. I did suggest that ghosts consider lynching J.T., but I had no idea she was the slayer.
2. Avi publicly suggested that if the EC knew who the slayer was, they should not kill him because if they wait until one EC is dead there will be no slayer replacement, while if they kill him right away there would be an unknown replacement. I, innocent student, publicly ridiculed that with the "counter strategy" that we should always kill our own slayer at the first opportunity, thus ensuring that the EC never had an idea who the slayer was. Clearly the "counter strategy" was absurd, and subsequently I decided Avi's strategy for the EC was right under the highly artificial situation that they knew who the slayer was. I think (but didn't bother researching) that I publicly agreed with Avi's strategy rather late in the game.

Anyway, if you think I might have PMed the ghosts the suggestion to lynch the slayer before me, I suggest you consult Hagbard, the ghost leader. EC_Slayer could PM him. Ghosts could publicly ask him if he remembers any PM like Ebenezer describes. If you want me to find a link to my "counter strategy" to confirm that I clearly wasn't serious, EC_Slayer can PM me or ghosts can ask publicly "Gandalf: please provide link."

I sure hope your fruit questions aren't for me. I remember you (4Sigma) discussed possible codes you might use, but fruits don't ring any bells. If you are expecting anything from me about those, you better post "Gandalf, check old PMs."

And another from Sunny. This is an interesting exchange between Cubed and Mulan.
So are advocating that we lynch Gandalf?
Yes. He's the person I'd least like to be EC, and if I am wrong then we have a strong ghost player. I see you and EK already voted for Will, so I'm going to throw a vote out for Gandalf.I'm surprised you didn't vote for me. Your case for me seems very strong.
I thought so to, but I have presented it to several other students, and nobody else seems convinced. I knew I would have other people voting for Gandalf. Do you have a reasonable explanation for your conversation with Leela?It's just been a long time and I've been pretty busy at work and in the political area. I really don't remember running the game though I did recognize the thread.

Mulan, this is the last PM I received from you, and it did not seem to require or request a response. Are there other PMs which I have not answered? It's true that I haven't taken the iniative to PM you since, but it is false that I have been ignoring PMs from you. Do you have me confused with someone else, or are you deliberately spreading lies about me?Deliberate lies! :D

Just jerking you around a little and trying to stimulate activity. Sorry, I should have let you in on it from the beginning. Feel free to ream me in the thread and I'll apologize prettily if you want me to :D

This is her response. I'm confused on why she would lie about people to stimulate discussion. I'm not sure how I should handle this. You defended yourself against stupid and baseless suspicions, but your defense of yourself just made more people suspect you, so that now a lot of people are wasting their votes on you and we could potentially waste one of our lynching rounds on you. Do you think its enough that the ghosts and slayer knows she lied, or do you think I should publically call her on it?

She told me she's lying too, and I've told the ghosts that much.

I'd like to know who still thiniks I'm EC, because I'm pm'ing lots of students and they don't seem to think so... ANd the only ones that still do are just two--the two I am currently suspecting who are ECs themselves and couldn't be more than happy to have us waste a lynch on me.

Anywho, I think you probably shouldn't do anything for now. You can always wait till later to do that.

At the same time, I'm going to pm some more students about this...

Leela
06-08-2004, 08:20 PM
Enjoy.

Gandalf sent me three messages, on June 7th at 8:23PM, on June 8th at 12:06PM, and on June 8th at 3PM. Each of those messages he said were sent to 4Sigma as well.

From Rocky, June 8 9:55AM

Following is a PM that I received from All Clear. I still don't think that this incriminates him at all, but wanted to give you and the ghosts this information.


I don't think you are EC, so after suggesting you once already, I didn't see it necessary to keep bringing your name up. When I saw you had suggested my name, though, I did a search of your posts in the EC thread, and saw that my name was brought up by you a total of three times, with only that one reason given. I guess when I wrote "people" I was just talking about me... Since you brought me up with such (what I thought to be) weak logic, I brought you up, since I still wonder that it may have been to deflect attention away from yourself, being EC. Still, while I think you are probably slightly more likely than average to be EC (and among my top choices), I still think it is far, far more likely that you are a student, so at this early point when I don't know enough of what is going on, I would prefer not to keep mentioning your name in the thread, which may convince others to vote for you. I'll let the ghosts decide at this point, I guess.


From Sunny, June 8th 10:14AM

Here's my correspondence to BC. Maybe I don't suspect him anymore. Many other students are suspecting Gandalf. Some of the students want to lynch Will this time. But next time, let's all vote for Gandalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also think, in case I'm killed by the EC (but at this rate, I think they're waiting for me to be lynched so maybe I'll be safe for a while), we should lynch:

Rocky
Mulan

and then see if we get any EC there, otherwise we should continue to look at:

Avi
Karma
BC


I don't think Gandalf has done anything suspicious. Every single thing he's said in the thread has been logical and in the students best interest. The same can't be said for Rocky, Mulan, Avi or Karma.

We should also vote for anyone who hasn't been making votes in the thread. There are quite a few people like that...it's a easy way for the EC to hide and blend in...and if we kill a student, we don't want people who aren't participating or giving any clues around anyway. Waiting for the ghosts to make a choice is a likely excuse, but not one that we should allow.

I agree with you on Rocky, Mulan, I guess I have yet to see what Avi has said (he really hasn't said much), and Karma isn't really that off no?

I'm getting more and more confused as to who to accuse. I'll be out tomorrow morning too so I'll just wait and see.

Gandalf seems suspcious to me for various reasons, the following is what I've posted to the ghosts. For many reasons. Gandalf has acted weird, at first cubedbee said that, then others who played last time, I wouldn't have known, but then even I felt he was strange, even his flirt/jokes with me were pretty strange or strained IMHO. In general, it felt like he was trying to get away from suspicion so he joked with me, cuz I have been pretty carefree I suppose in this thread. His refusal to do the stapler vote, his unhelpfulness to me in pm (which is extremely unusual), his recommendations and sometimes accusations of me have all been not very intelligent nor rational I thought.


Have you told the ghosts your thoughts? And the slayer? The slayer can slay the quiet ones too. And you never know, we could get an EC that way! :)


From Sunny, June 8th 1:56PM

I just read Cho Da's last post just above Gandalf's indicated above, and suddenly it's dawned on me!
Please quote or link the post. I don't know what you are mentioning here.

Ok, I'll just link the post out there. hang on.

I've pm'd the ghosts also about kenshiro's idea that at least one of the ECs must have publicly voted for me to be lynched--that's what they want! And he has a point! And Cho Da did two suspicious things in that post. Both voting for me (he and Will are pretty consistent about that) and also talks like an EC trying to stay away from this thread...
=============================
Also, I've pm'd 4sig about the following with Mulan--she's the sleeper and she knows who the ECs are and is trying to confuse everyone!!!!!!

But I trust cubed, he's been pretty consistent so far.

Why cubedbee though, aside from not answering pms? I've done that too with people I suspect. Is there any other reason?Just jerking his chain and stimulating conversation.
======================================
b/w me and cubed:
Mulan has publicly accused me of not responding to her PMs, and that is an absolute lie. I have recieved exactly four PMs from her, and I responded to 3. The last PM, which I did not respond to, is as follows:

So are advocating that we lynch Gandalf?
Yes. He's the person I'd least like to be EC, and if I am wrong then we have a strong ghost player. I see you and EK already voted for Will, so I'm going to throw a vote out for Gandalf.I'm surprised you didn't vote for me. Your case for me seems very strong.
I thought so to, but I have presented it to several other students, and nobody else seems convinced. I knew I would have other people voting for Gandalf. Do you have a reasonable explanation for your conversation with Leela?It's just been a long time and I've been pretty busy at work and in the political area. I really don't remember running the game though I did recognize the thread.

I never entirely trusted her and haven't been keeping her in my confidence through PMs. Now that she is falsely trying to cast suspicion on me, I'm certain that she is either EC or she is the sleeper and knows it. I've PM'd her to ask for an explanation, so I'm going to hold out on publicly calling her out on her lie.

I trust you cubed, and have already pm'd the ghosts about it, and will forward this into to them as well.

So are advocating that we lynch Gandalf?
Yes. He's the person I'd least like to be EC, and if I am wrong then we have a strong ghost player. I see you and EK already voted for Will, so I'm going to throw a vote out for Gandalf.I'm surprised you didn't vote for me. Your case for me seems very strong.
I thought so to, but I have presented it to several other students, and nobody else seems convinced. I knew I would have other people voting for Gandalf. Do you have a reasonable explanation for your conversation with Leela?It's just been a long time and I've been pretty busy at work and in the political area. I really don't remember running the game though I did recognize the thread.

Mulan, this is the last PM I received from you, and it did not seem to require or request a response. Are there other PMs which I have not answered? It's true that I haven't taken the iniative to PM you since, but it is false that I have been ignoring PMs from you. Do you have me confused with someone else, or are you deliberately spreading lies about me?Deliberate lies! :D

Just jerking you around a little and trying to stimulate activity. Sorry, I should have let you in on it from the beginning. Feel free to ream me in the thread and I'll apologize prettily if you want me to :D

This is her response. I'm confused on why she would lie about people to stimulate discussion. I'm not sure how I should handle this. You defended yourself against stupid and baseless suspicions, but your defense of yourself just made more people suspect you, so that now a lot of people are wasting their votes on you and we could potentially waste one of our lynching rounds on you. Do you think its enough that the ghosts and slayer knows she lied, or do you think I should publically call her on it?

She told me she's lying too, and I've told the ghosts that much.

I'd like to know who still thiniks I'm EC, because I'm pm'ing lots of students and they don't seem to think so... ANd the only ones that still do are just two--the two I am currently suspecting who are ECs themselves and couldn't be more than happy to have us waste a lynch on me.

Anywho, I think you probably shouldn't do anything for now. You can always wait till later to do that.

At the same time, I'm going to pm some more students about this...


From Rocky, June 8th 3:25PM

It looks an awful lot like (regardless of how dumb this strategy sounds to me) Mulan knows that she's the sleeper and is trying to get killed. Why else would she post what she did about cubedbee. I'm not sure that B^3 is telling the truth, but Mulan seems like she's trying to get offed.

It's worth considering what sort of damage she could do if she's lynched for the purpose of being a mole in the ghost forum.

4sigma
06-08-2004, 09:15 PM
Good insight from Rocky in that previous PM. I am all the more convinced we do not want him dead just yet. Here is another fine insight from Gandalf:

Share this with ghost forum if you like, though if the basic assumption is wrong there is no reason to. Except to embarrass me, which may be good enough reason. :)
P.S. The ghosts do have some reliable inside information regarding the recent kerfluffle. We ask everyone's patience while we select a nominee.
Ah, finally a believable scenario. Mulan PMed some ghost or EC_Slayer before her lie. Good for her. It certainly wouldn't prove she was innocent, but if that's what she did I would move her back into the neutral group, tending toward innocent. And cubedbee definitely passed the test, thereby remaining in the neutral group.

OTOH, even if we have no reason for thinking Mulan is EC, I don't think it is necessarily true that either Mulan or Will is EC, so I would still stick with Will is not EC, based on the public info.

Leela
06-09-2004, 01:10 PM
I just got back from my morning meeting, I don't really understand why you picked Karma. And I voted to lynch him anyways. But I for some reason don't think he is EC.

It is in my mind more likely to be Gandalf, Rocky, Avi, Cho Da or Will Durant.

Just FYI.

4sigma
06-09-2004, 02:48 PM
If Sunny doesn't understand, we can just wait 15 minutes and she will change her mind.

Leela
06-09-2004, 02:57 PM
My last post was before I read Karma's demise. I didn't even know he was actually lynched, much less innocent or not.

Anyways, I'm suspecting Gandalf more and more now... Not sure why.

Tim><
06-09-2004, 04:39 PM
PM from Gandalf to KP:

Share with ghosts if you like. I trust you and they can tell there's no evidence here.
At least I can take solace in the fact that the loser ECs will never kill me.
Hmmm... While the EC are losers who will be killed first, I think it would be a mistake Those loser ECs will never kill me, either.

Leela
06-10-2004, 09:53 AM
I was very close to selecting Rocky and following what you all thought. After reading his pm's, though, I almost like him around as a student. He sends me constant private messages (I will forward the recent ones tomorrow), and his ideas that are thrown out don't sound that bad. Decided to go with Hagbard, though. Maybe one of these days we may actually hit someone. :D :wink:

Tim><
06-10-2004, 05:10 PM
From EC1 to KP:

What do you want?

4sigma
06-10-2004, 05:11 PM
Thanks for posting this, KP! When exactly was this sent?

Tim><
06-10-2004, 05:12 PM
Just now. I have been baiting him. See my latest post to the main thread.

Tim><
06-10-2004, 05:13 PM
Incidentally, he title the PM "Real EC"

4sigma
06-11-2004, 04:06 AM
This message is being copied to Leela.

[I have omitted some details about the grocery code --4σ]

The ghosts are reviewing the merits of providing 2 names instead of 1 for prospective lynching for the next few rounds.

Advantages:

1) Living players will have a fair bit more fun pointing fingers and fussing over who to lynch.

Possible disadvantages:

1) According to my calculations, this increases EC's chances of hitting the slayer by about 2% over the next 3 rounds, or about 3 - 4% over the next 4 rounds.

2) We would need to allow additional time for debate. Probably we would need to provide our 2 nominees with at least 36-48 hours notice. This curtails the amount of discussion the ghosts can have in selecting the nominees.

3) It is possible that a deadlock could occur and no lynching would take place.

Discuss.
If you prefer not to make your opinion public due to paranoia, feel free to PM any active ghost.


If you would like to throw out two names, that is fine also. My request would be that I can look these names over first. If you are worried about timing issues, you can send me four or so names that are being considered, and I will confirm all of them are not the slayer (and maybe throw in a thought or two about a couple of them), before telling you that the names are ok to post. In any case, no matter how many names you are giving (if you aren't giving any, that is fine also, whatever you and the students decide), lets do it like this. another six digit number (this way we can differentiate from the food code, which always has nine numbers), in the format of ( h h _ _ _ _ ) where the first two numbers are the code ones. We will start counting from the bottom, except unlike the food code, "00" is thing, and "34" is ebenezer kohl.

The ghosts may be up late this weekend preparing our recommendations. I’m hoping someone can pick up some munchies for us. The consensus of the ghosts is that we want some Hershey’s bars, preferably the Special Dark variety. Check them out at Rite-aid for $1.29 on aisle 47.

We should probably have some milk to go with that. None of that low-fat stuff. Ghosts don’t need to count calories. It is $1.85 a quart at Vons – they have some in their dairy section and also check out their display on the bottom of aisle 65.

Also still looking forward to planning our fiesta.

Thanks again,

--4σ

[This message] means that karma police is almost surely innocent. Yes, we know that by now... It could be I am reading everything wrong, of course. All the more reason to switch to my code... [Yes, EC_Slayer is misreading this. I was trying to say that KP is STILL innocent. I'm making another attempt -- 4&sigma;]

A reminder once more that I posted earlier in here the new code for when you determined people that may be given to the students as lynching ideas. ( h h _ _ _ _ ) where the first 2 letters (the h's) start from 00 on the bottom (at thing).

Leela
06-11-2004, 10:11 AM
It has been a boring couple of days, and now that Rocky can't send me things anymore, I hope I will still have something to send you every now and then...

Gandalf sent me something on June 9th, 7:56AM. He said it was already sent to the ghost forum the previous early evening.

From Rocky, June 9th 8:50AM

I've kind of made this avatar deal a theory now. I checked and found that there are 3 players in this game without an avatar (and as far as I know, they've never had one).

Those 3 are:
Leela (ghost)
Macroman
Rocky

This isn't a guarantee of innocence (although we all know that Leela was, and I know that I am), but it is a unique trait that makes me think that Macroman is very unlikely EC. Plus, he's given no other reasons to suspect him.


From Rocky, June 10th 8:33AM

EC suspects (ranked in descending order of EC likelihood)


1) Sunny – way too many signs of guilt to ignore.
2) Mulan – why blatantly lie to “stir the pot”?
3) Ebenezer Kohlx – too heavily against the ghost forum, IMO. I’m for more student involvement, but not to the detriment of winning the game.
4) Will Durant – his exchanges with Mulan seem contrived.
5) Avi – several small clues that were already mentioned in the main thread.
6) Kenshiro – not many posts, but most of them are about questionable strategies, IMO
7) Cho Da – why is he laying so low. No long strategy posts from him this game.
8) CubedBee – can’t pin a specific reason, just a general feeling.
9) Maine-iac – totally different posting frequency than last game. Why?
10) Kaput Shakur – hard to tell, but he is another player without an avatar, so I consider him less likely.
11) Jables – the “no internet connection” would kill him.
12) Gandalf – still hard to tell, but he’s more defensive than last game. I still consider him less likely to be EC.
13) Anonymouse – no good reasons
14) BC – the “model” could be a ploy, but I think that it’s legit
15) RedSoxFan – not giving much to go on, just seems to be innocent to me
16) Butters – he doesn’t post a lot, but brings up some decent ideas.
17) jadzia - seems to be helping out the students cause
18) Asynchronous – same as Butters
19) Macroman – back to the “no avatar” theory
20) All Clear – same reasons that I stated before. He seems tuned in to the game and thinking like an innocent student.
21) Rocky – I’ve given some reasons for innocence already.

Jury’s still out on these 4. Not many posts, but they seem to make sure to post something every couple of days.

Thing – somewhat more likely to be EC, IMO. No good reasons for that thought, though.
Werewolf – does not ever seem to add anything to the discussions.
Hagbard Celine – not enough posts to tell. That doesn’t seem out of character from last game.
J.T. – seems to just be the silent type in this game. I see her as less likely to be EC.

These are the truly silent ones this game.

Traina - gave a reason, not sure if she’s trying to hide
Ultimate Anyone – is he really playing this game? Maybe this is the plain M&M from last game.

ahow
06-11-2004, 10:58 AM
So I was talking to cavey (aka Thawed/Unfrozen/Defrosted Caveman Attorney/Lawyer/Paralegal) because he knows Sunny fairly well. Here is our exchange. I know Sunny is pretty vocal about everything. She was talking about Paris all the time when she went about 2 months ago. cavey hasn't heard anything about this though. Suspicious???

Is Sunny REALLY going to Egypt in a week? I need a confirmation of this without her knowing I know.

apparently you know more than me. i have no idea. might be like a few months ago...she suddenly took a trip to "paris"...i don't know many people who wake up one morning and say "i think i will go to paris this afternoon"

smells rotten to me.

Leela
06-11-2004, 02:57 PM
Please note that i've changed my vote to Gandalf. I have pm'd Karma Police to tell me if he's ever pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, something Gandalf, if you notice, has never explicitly confirmed nor denied. In the case of a yes he did pm Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :x, if he indeed never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :evil:

Karma's given me :evil:, so I'm sure Gandalf is EC.

Or at least, that will be my vote for him every round.

snafu
06-11-2004, 03:07 PM
Please note that i've changed my vote to Gandalf. I have pm'd Karma Police to tell me if he's ever pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, something Gandalf, if you notice, has never explicitly confirmed nor denied. In the case of a yes he did pm Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :x, if he indeed never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :evil:

Karma's given me :evil:, so I'm sure Gandalf is EC.

Or at least, that will be my vote for him every round.

ahow
06-11-2004, 03:10 PM
Please note that i've changed my vote to Gandalf. I have pm'd Karma Police to tell me if he's ever pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, something Gandalf, if you notice, has never explicitly confirmed nor denied. In the case of a yes he did pm Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :x, if he indeed never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :evil:

Karma's given me :evil:, so I'm sure Gandalf is EC.

Or at least, that will be my vote for him every round.
Please note that i've changed my vote to Gandalf. I have pm'd Karma Police to tell me if he's ever pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, something Gandalf, if you notice, has never explicitly confirmed nor denied. In the case of a yes he did pm Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :x, if he indeed never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :evil:

Karma's given me :evil:, so I'm sure Gandalf is EC.

Or at least, that will be my vote for him every round.
Any reason you both posted the same thing???

snafu
06-11-2004, 03:12 PM
Any reason you both posted the same thing???

Yeah, we both got the same PM from Sunny.

Leela
06-11-2004, 05:30 PM
From Gandalf. Note that he did not tell me he was sending this to you, so I am forwarding it over, and making sure that what he says is accurate. If it isn't, give me his name as a guilty person, and if the students dont get him, I will.

Sent on June 11th, 7:41AM

By the way, I have now sent 4Sigma at least 4, maybe 5, PMs about this situation. At first, I was inclined to believe it, far-fetched though it sounds, because I can't imagine what the ghosts expect to accomplish from a scam. After KP's subsequent posts in the thread, I now am convinced it is a scam, whose purpose I still have no idea of.

I will send you copies of them if you want, but I don't think they'll help you. The only relevant info is 1. I never told the ghosts KP sent me anything. 2. KP in fact never sent me anything.

Public posts that seem to contradict 1 and 2 are an attempt to cooperate with what I hope is a ghost scam.

You are free to forward this to the ghosts so you can be sure I'm not telling you one thing and them another.

Also, while I am about to suggest in the public thread that maybe you, EC1 and EC2 should negotiate with Mr. P for a different slayer, that too is total scam. I have no reason to think EC1 or EC2 have any valid info about your id, (and you're doing a fine job), so there is no reason for any change. Keep up the good work.

Thanks, Gandalf, I like to think I am doing a fine job also. Of course, in the thank-you-note I send him, I will be Captain Morgan. :wink: :D


Gandalf sent a list of who he suspects at 8:59AM. He said that message was forwarded to you.


From Sunny, June 11th 12:57PM

Please note that i've changed my vote to Gandalf. I have pm'd Karma Police to tell me if he's ever pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, something Gandalf, if you notice, has never explicitly confirmed nor denied. In the case of a yes he did pm Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :x, if he indeed never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :evil:

Karma's given me :evil:, so I'm sure Gandalf is EC.

Or at least, that will be my vote for him every round.

Sunny is going to be trouble if Gandalf was telling me the truth and you guys want to keep him alive. Even though I am thinking more now that she is more likely to be a student than I had originally thought.

Rocky
06-11-2004, 05:38 PM
Please note that i've changed my vote to Gandalf. I have pm'd Karma Police to tell me if he's ever pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, something Gandalf, if you notice, has never explicitly confirmed nor denied. In the case of a yes he did pm Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :x, if he indeed never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :evil:

Karma's given me :evil:, so I'm sure Gandalf is EC.

Or at least, that will be my vote for him every round.
Please note that i've changed my vote to Gandalf. I have pm'd Karma Police to tell me if he's ever pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, something Gandalf, if you notice, has never explicitly confirmed nor denied. In the case of a yes he did pm Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :x, if he indeed never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost, he should give me a :evil:

Karma's given me :evil:, so I'm sure Gandalf is EC.

Or at least, that will be my vote for him every round.
Any reason you both posted the same thing???

Because it's the first time that Sunny ever agreed with herself. :wink:

snafu
06-11-2004, 05:44 PM
Because it's the first time that Sunny ever agreed with herself. :wink:

:rofl:

Ahhh, the miracle of cut and paste :P

Leela
06-11-2004, 05:45 PM
Good one Rocky. :lol: :rofl:

4sigma
06-11-2004, 06:09 PM
Because it's the first time that Sunny ever agreed with herself. :wink:
:notworth:

Rocky
06-11-2004, 07:31 PM
PM from All Clear

Firstly, I am sorry about your unfortunate killing. I don't know what is happening in the ghost forum, but hopefully you are helping out up there- there seems to have been a leak just before you arrived... evil evil Karma Police....

I was thinking about what you wrote, and it made sense afterward, to the point that I would have felt kind of bad if you were lynched because of me (why I didn't want to keep bringing up your name). You should give the ghosts more options, and if I did anything out of the ordinary, I guess my name can be brought up- heaven knows I have brought up a few names so far. The thing was, I'm not sure anyone had mentioned me until that point, and it felt weird being suspected.... in any case, I know you can't respond, but what you did was definitely fine. :-) Please don't continue to bring my name up in "heaven", though- I like it as a living student just fine. :-)

The original PM exchange was:


All Clear wrote:
I don't think you are EC, so after suggesting you once already, I didn't see it necessary to keep bringing your name up. When I saw you had suggested my name, though, I did a search of your posts in the EC thread, and saw that my name was brought up by you a total of three times, with only that one reason given. I guess when I wrote "people" I was just talking about me... Since you brought me up with such (what I thought to be) weak logic, I brought you up, since I still wonder that it may have been to deflect attention away from yourself, being EC. Still, while I think you are probably slightly more likely than average to be EC (and among my top choices), I still think it is far, far more likely that you are a student, so at this early point when I don't know enough of what is going on, I would prefer not to keep mentioning your name in the thread, which may convince others to vote for you. I'll let the ghosts decide at this point, I guess.


I hope that you don't take it personally.

You may be suspicious of me from last game as well. I sent you a PM to make sure that you were still following the game. I did that so that we wouldn't risk missing a lynching by not having enough votes. I sent the same PM to a couple other players as well.

I've been sending all of my thoughts that I think merit serious consideration to the ghosts, since I still think that using the ghost forum is a very good idea. I can only say that some players may be surprised by some of the things that I sent to the ghosts when the ghost forum is made public.

The suggestions that I'm posting in the main thread are primarily to give the ghosts more options. Also, it gets some of the other players to think about names that don't come up that often.

I think that we can both agree that my posting pattern in the main thread would not allow me to deflect attention very easily. I'm one of the higher profile players in the main thread, so I know that I'm going to be considered regularly for lynching. And, frankly, that's OK with me.

I still do NOT think All Clear is likely EC, but his follow up to a post from several days ago makes him seem nervous. I'll go on record as saying that a reasonable EC member would NOT send this follow up. A slayer on the other hand, just may...

Rocky
06-12-2004, 12:55 AM
I'm not sure where to put KP PM's. Any suggestions?

Have the students pick two people to be lynched. The slayer can then choose one in the open forum. A bit crude, but you could manipulate the decision that way.

Just my $0.02,
KP

4sigma
06-12-2004, 05:59 AM
OK, time to catch up on some PMs I've recieved.

First, the topic du jour: Gandalf. Here are 4 of his posts that I think I posted over in the KP/EC1 thread, but I shall also post them here for easy reference:
I hope you are kidding, but I cannot see any possible reason you would.

I certainly hope you trust my integrity to know that even if I were EC (which I happen not to be) I would never have participated* in such a scheme. I find it hard to believe anyone else in the game would participate in such a scheme, so when I suggest people as possible EC it is not intended to cast any aspersions on their ethics.

*Participated in = Planned, had advance knowledge, etc. I do not know what I would do if I were EC and through no fault of my own received the knowledge. I am glad not to be in that situation.

You can share this with the ghosts or not, as you like. I just had to voice my disgust.And really, did anybody not see this KP double-agent bit coming? He might not have even been your sleeper, just a PITA who decided to compromise the game, essentially giving 4 EC players. And near as I can tell, it would be within the stated rules of the game -- we will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine whether it's good clean fun or a serious ethics violation.

(I say it's good clean fun and, boy, are you guys in trouble now)
He can have his good clean fun, but I expect never to reply to one of his posts again.

BTW, it may not be within the stated rules. Unless I missed something, he has not compromised the ghost forum within the thread. If he, once dead, communicated anything to living players outside the thread, he probably has broken the rules. I see no reason for you to address this with Mr. P now, as I don't see how you could prove a violation.

If by chance this is some kind of stunt and he's on our side, he's still constrained by the communication rules.The thoughts just keep coming. This was just so unexpected, so ramifications are not obvious.

If you really are convinced that EC_Slayer has been compromised, I'm afraid our best response is clear: lynch EC_Slayer. Otherwise we get two shots until we hit an EC, but will permanently lose a slayer thereafter (if EC is wise enough to wait and kill the known slayer after an EC is dead). With a new slayer, EC is again guessing.OK, based on his reply to me it seems like it must be a scam. What you hope to accomplish is beyond me, but I will play along. Despite my public post, he did not communicate any information to me at all.I still cannot fathom what you guys are up to. As far as I can tell, all it's going to accomplish is getting me lynched by the EC as clearly an innocent student now. That's rather how I hoped to go out: students and slayer not wasting a turn; EC missing the slayer.

Anyway, in for a penny, in for a pound, so I'm about to stir the post some more.

Here's a thought for you (a bad thought, if by chance this is not a scam): perhaps KP is allowed to PM the EC1 ids and EC2 ids. Everyone seemed to agree that ghosts PMing the EC_Slayer id was not barred by the rule against PMing players; it is barred by special rule. Thus the ability to PM EC1 and EC2 is still unaddressed. (I hope you would consult Mr. P first; I really do want to win within the rules, not be loopholes.)

Thus, if there were any one thing you really wanted to send to the EC as credible: 1. Have KP send it now. 2. Declare that you are going to trust KP's version, and order me lynched. 3. It will be determined that I am an innocent student, and therefore my claim to have received info from KP is presumed true. 4. Maybe EC believes the info.

Not a bad plan, except I can't see what we would possibly want to give to the EC1 and EC2 ids, not knowing who was really getting it. Also, the info would have to be sent now, as once I were lynched and KP's "treachery" exposed, they would know he has no source of future info.This is only a game. If the ghosts want to say that I was consistently clear to them that I received no PM and that they believe no PM was sent, that is fine with me. I have no idea what is really going on, whether KP is upset, whether some breach of security did occur, etc.

And if they want to do it just to calm people down, independent of strategy, that is also fine. Some people seem not to be having fun.

I did give full disclosure to Mr. P.Looks like you don't plan to intervene. C'est la vie. Ghosts would have more future credibility if the students make a mistake against your recommendation rather than with your silence. This way, ghosts choices are 0 for something and student choices are 0 for 1. Ghosts say no, students lynch anyway, then ghosts gain some credibility.(I was going to send this to 4Sigma, but it was in my outbox for 2 hours, and Leela was around, so I changed some "you's" to "4Sigma's" and sent it. Then she was gone. So now it is going to both Leela and 4Sigma)

Boy, you guys have me confused. It seems so likely that a scam is going on, but still there is no obvious point. Or maybe it is all real after all.

In any case, initially taking it at face value I expressed my feelings so clearly in the public thread that I realize afterwards everyone, including EC, will realize I'm innocent student. And I unload 3 PMs to 4Sigma, clearly with fear and anger that it is true, while expressing some hope that it is a scam.

Then KP posts (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=568898&highlight=#568898), saying I'm responsible for ghosts not trusting him. First time that's been suggested, I think. And in fact, I had nothing to do with it.

If KP is guilty of breaching ghost forum security, it probably doesn't matter what I say, so I lie but confirm to 4Sigma that I am just stirring the pot.

If KP is not guilty of breaching security, then presumably the whole thing is a scam (though I suppose it is also possible that he has done nothing but you really think he has). Where does that leave me, who really has no idea what is going on? I can either deny it, or, since the plan seems to discredit him, I can go along. How can I go along with the assertion that I made the ghosts think he breached security? Seems like claiming I got a PM is only thing that has a chance of being believed.

All hell breaks loose, but ghosts seem OK with continuing the ruse that I sent him a PM. I even PM 4Sigma and Leela separately saying it's fine with me if you want to say there's no PM. And I PM KP (even though there is still some chance that he is not in on it), saying that if he posts "Gandalf, confess" in the public thread, I will. He doesn't.

Students don't know any of this, so I can understand that some of them think I'm lying [as I am] and that they should lynch me. But you presumably know I'm lying in a well-intentioned attempt to further some agenda I think you have. It must be one hell of a great trap you have if you are planning to sacrifice me to establish the credibility that KP is somehow working against us (or for whatever other reason).

Now we're somewhat stuck. It looks like there are three choices:
1. Just put me up against Sunny or Traina. Probably I'll be history (and anyway, if you put me up against Sunny IMO an innocent student will be history; against Traina there's slim chance they would hit her and she would be EC. More likely if they did hit her we would just have lowered the quiet pool by one.)
2. Same as #1, but indicate that it is only because these were the top two candidates, and that the ghosts believe I'm innocent while having no opinion on the other choice. That just waves a red flag in front of EK and I'll be gone, but at least the ghosts have demonstrated that their inside knowledge is valuable: the students have lost someone that the ghosts were sure was innocent.
3. Put up Sunny vs Traina. Tell them you are convinced I am innocent. It has the drawback that they may kill me anyway, and then you've alerted them that Sunny and Traina are not the Slayer. Plus, if the students don't kill me, the EC would, but at least the students have a chance with their shots, and the EC won't be getting the Slayer.

Of course your options are further constrained if Sunny or Traina is the Slayer. And you are gambling your reputation that I am not EC, but if you think I could have faked the anger I felt when I thought KP had betrayed us, you're giving me far, far more credit that I deserve.

I'm sure you're trying your best, but I expect to be upset when I join you and learn what ghosts really were thinking.

Here's his innocent/Guilty list. I'll post this over in the Summary thread as well.Little change from the prior list. You've certainly stirred the pot. If anything comes from that, I'll add info. No significant new thoughts, either; the comments I supplied last time still apply.

Those I suspect:
1. Cho Da
2. Jables
3. Mulan, if by some chance the flap with cubedbee was not a pre-announced scam. If pre-announced scam, neutral on Mulan.
4. Any and everybody quiet. In the thread I suggested Anonymouse and Traina. I do think Traina has been unusually quiet. As to Anonymouse and the rest of the quiet ones, unfortunately most of them are naturally quiet. (Traina is too, but the others have seemed to put marginally more content into the few posts they've made.)

Those I think are innocent: (I hope you realize that it should have been clear to the whole world that 4Sigma and Rocky were innocent, and that the EC's hitting the ones I knew were innocent is not suspicious.) :)
1. Sunny
2. All Clear
3. BC
4. thing. This is new "evidence". 4Sigma, Maine-iac and I are all playing the Dictionary! game. He ran a recent round, and referred to various definitions, votes, etc as "suspicious". That came across to me as carefree, innocent student.
5. Jadzia (no new developments; in thinking about the players I realized she should have been on the innocent list all along. Like Leela, she was putting lots of effort into tracking what was happening.)
6. Butters
7. Avi
8. Will Durant

As to me, I'm sure you've formed some opinions based on the Gandalf-KP confrontation. If you still have any doubt, would I really have tried to get KP into the ghost forum at all, when he seemed so convinced he should lynch me?

My guess: EC will lynch me, BC or jadzia next; conceivably Mulan. They will not be nearly as sure we have concluded sunny or All Clear is innocent. They might even lynch Ebenezer Kohl for us.
This one is from KP regarding Gandalf:This is from before my lynching:

The only reason I can think of that I am being lynched is that you are the slayer. I was drumming support for your lynching and that would be really bad for the students. However, you might want to consider that, if I am correct, the ECs could figure out the same exact thing. So, seeing as I am going to be lynched anyway, you may want to create some sort of diversion. Perhaps once it is too late, indicate that you have reason to believe I am an innocent student. That is unless you are, in fact, EC.
I'll pass. If you are indeed not EC, and there is a fair chance you are not, though you are #1 on my list for reasons I sent the ghosts, you will learn soon enough whether I am the slayer. If you are EC, I definitely don't want to tell you.

It occurred to me that Gandalf will now be absolutely convinced that I am a traitor based on this exchange. I am not sure what this does for us, but if I am correct and he is EC, he will be more inclined to trust me.

4sigma
06-12-2004, 06:31 AM
Now for the weather report: Mostly Sunny
Duplicate of the 2 Sunny posts given above deleted -- 4&sigma;
Gandalf, did KP pm you as a ghost?
Yes, I have made that clear several times. The PM has been quoted, except for the (supposed) slayer's name.


He never explicitly denied it.

Also, later in one post of his he said this is a game, and players lie.

And I know Karma irl you see, so I tend to trust him more.

I could be wrong, and for all Karma knows, Karma doesn't necessarily know who the ECs are either. But for all intents and purposes, Gandalf has been pretty accusatory and avoiding being lynched to be the head ghost AND, may I add, he never was the kind that would flirt with me in the past (actually we've had some run-ins in the past). So every single flirt post of his with me not only were unusual, they were also strained.

See, that's another thing you wouldn't know but I know dang well about.
Same Sunny post deleted again. -- 4&sigma;

By the way, what's this uproar been about? I've skimmed through all the posts but not sure if I understand. How did KP violate the ghost forum? Is it just that he PMd a living student? Or is that he told Gandalf who the slayer was? (and if this is true, and Gandalf is EC, why in the world would he publically disclose that KP PMd him?)

Ok, this is what I know.

1. Gandalf never explicitly said KP pm'd him as a ghost.

2. KP explicitly indicated that he never did in his response publicly to my pm with his :evil:

3. Gandalf has said a. this is a game and players lie and b. that he was not happy about KP's telling me he never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost on the phone--which I later verified by pm'ing him.

4. I know KP irl and Gandalf never was one to flirt with me--we actually had run-ins in the past, so every flirt post of his was forced, and very unnatural, as cubed bee has mentioned even before I noticed it.

5. It is very suspicious why Gandalf would pursue KP so much even now. Something is at stake. I could be wrong but I'll put my money on him being the EC. If he's not, hey, let's clear this up and make the ghost forum even stronger! :D

2 minutes later, Sunny has a new suspect:I'm really beginning to suspect EK. He seems difficult to work with, at first I thought it's just his personality, now I'm not so sure...

An hour later, and she trusts Gandalf now.Right now it may as well be that Gandalf is innocent, and if he is, power to the ghost forum.

I do believe the ECs will also vote for Gandalf at this point, despite how stupid they are. I've never pm'd Cho Da and Mulan, so not sure why they voted Gandalf. Just another note for me to believe my original idea: Cho Da and Will Durant, both accused by Mulan, who is the sleeper, are both the EC!

Just FYI.

But I think for now, Gandalf would be more trusted if we know for sure he is not EC anywho.

And once Gandalf is in the ghost forum, may he realize he's been just pretty suspicious and strange throughout this game--very unlike himself. That itself has gotten people to be suspicious of him.

6 minutes later she sends me this one where she seems to think Gandalf is EC again:Ok, this is what I know.

1. Gandalf never explicitly said KP pm'd him as a ghost.

2. KP explicitly indicated that he never did in his response publicly to my pm with his :evil:

3. Gandalf has said a. this is a game and players lie and b. that he was not happy about KP's telling me he never pm'd Gandalf as a ghost on the phone--which I later verified by pm'ing him.

4. I know KP irl and Gandalf never was one to flirt with me--we actually had run-ins in the past, so every flirt post of his was forced, and very unnatural, as cubed bee has mentioned even before I noticed it.

5. It is very suspicious why Gandalf would pursue KP so much even now. Something is at stake. I could be wrong but I'll put my money on him being the EC. If he's not, hey, let's clear this up and make the ghost forum even stronger! :D


Thanks for the info. I don't know what to make of this episode. I don't know any of the personalities irl, so it's touch for me to have much insight. I find the following things curious:

1) Gandalf has now said that KP did send him a PM as a ghost.

2) KP appears to claim that he did not, though I don't think he's claimed that in a public post yet.

3) Mr. Penguin pretty much gave KP a free pass this time at least. That means either:
a) Gandalf could not prove the claim and wasn't willing to have Mr. P log in to his account, which would prove it.
b) Gandalf was lying, which is not illegal, and Mr. P is doing his best not to show his hand either way.
c) Mr. P doesn't think KP committed a punishable offence, at least without getting a warning first.

Gandalf has been on my midrange-watch list. His behavior has been out of character, but he did announce before roles were assigned that he was going to play more quietly this game. This has eroded over the past few rounds, but might explain that. As for the flirting issue, Gandalf has tended to flirt with every female, but obviously has his favorites. As a lower-caste member of the forum, I'm not really privvy to backstory and insider info. If it's true that his behavior towards you is different then that's something I'll look back at more closely.

I'm very curious as to why the EC took out 4sigma, and now rocky. 4sigma appeared to be expecting his execution before it happened.

Are you really intending to retire, or is this a ploy related (or unrelated) to the game. (Or are you just going to use your EC1 id exclusively from now on?) :P :o :)

Thanks for the message!

As far as I know, when people want to lie, they don't tend to explicitly deny it. Gandalf has never explicitly denied it, he just says that's why he's been saying etc etc.

I think the biggest thing that gets me is why he is acting so strange this game. And all the flirtings are just weird--we even had a run-in at one point before! And then now, what's the big deal with Karma? I mean, the worse thing the guy is doing is probably 1. really want to get Gandalf as a personal vendetta or 2. really crazy and is trying to cooperate with the EC?

He just isn't like that to me imho since I know him irl.

So I believe Gandalf is lying. Why? Other than he is the EC, I can't think of any better reason.

And I don't understand why he's so smart anyways, whatever strategy he may have. In any case, even if he's not EC, he only will make the ghost forum stronger.

Yes, I've been trying to quit for ages, pretty much from the beginning. I will try to really quit, it has nothing to do with the game. I've been planning on the 3333 number for a long time. The EC Game accelerated the goal because of the explosion of post counts in it. :D

By the end of the day Gandalf is back at the top of her suspect list:Hey Sunny. I wanted to thank you for the message you sent me, as well as the one you sent me a while back. Though I feel bad telling you this, I had questions about whether you were EC then. I still have questions now, but not enough to stop me from writing back to you. :-)

Yes, I am just an innocent student and am happy that you saw that. I made a couple of posts earlier that made others think that as well, I guess. And please, let me know your thoughts. The thing is, this is sort of a he said / she said kind of thing. Gandalf seems pretty smart, and I don't think he would have done something like this if he was EC... so while I do suspect him more than I used to, I am not convinced as you are. If he gets lynched, fine. I think the ghost forum may be better off with him (they seem to be messing up, with a possible leak- I don't really know the specifics of what happend with Karma Police), but I would like to hold off on voting for him myself. Definitley continue to tell other people this, though, and if most think he is guilty, he should be lynched. Thanks, Sunny.

For what it's worth, and the nth time, I am just an innocent student as well. I post a lot in general, don't know if you know this but my nickname was Supersonic, and I have the most post per day count ever in the entire RF. So me posting all over this thread, if anything, is exactly my style. Those that have been around know that about me.

Anywho, I am not convinced about Gandalf. I am more very suspicious of him, and have been from the beginning when I had that slip-off and that chat conversation with EC1 and pm'd three students I thought might be innocent, and one of them was Gandalf, who was the least helpful (!!, you would have thought otherwise compared to how helpful he seems publicly), and he was the only one who didn't warn me about pm'ing too many others, lest I include an EC--seems to me he is more than happy if I get sloppy. His response was the most terse, and least helpful. The other two sent back generous and elaborate tips and thoughts etc. They are, I can tell you, cubedbee and 4sigma. I believe cubedbee this turn is totally innocent, and he doesn't think I am EC of course, and we converse and trust each other. And as we all know, 4sigma is not EC.

Anyways, I think at this point Gandalf is not to be trusted. He's been behaving wierdly since a long time ago. For example, he and I didn't get along and I remember he would jerk me and we had a major run-in once. So his flirting with me is completely unnatural, to say the least, and very forced. This was actually mentioned by cubedbee at first, as he is the more experienced poster, and then even I noticed.

In any case, we could be wrong. But we cannot afford to have Gandalf being the EC and the ghost forum listening to him so much that KP--who is not EC for sure!--was kicked out of the ghost forum! Actually, I understand he is a strategist, and obviously I appear to be a bimbo out there and have purposely been careless (cuz hey I am not EC and I have nothing to hide dagnabbit!!) out there, but I don't see how he is so much smarter than anyone else. I know Karma irl, he is dang smart himself. He's passed every single exam so far, and I believed just passed c4, (and the dang hard Nov 03 c3), and even though he is like 22/23, he's making more than I do (just so you know, although I look young, I'm turning 31 next Sat)!!!

Anywho, thanks for the reply, for all I know, I've met you in NYC either studying or at the exam center! :) It is nice meeting you finally, even though on it is on the eve of my retirement from this forum. ;)

DEATH TO THE EC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tomorrows forecast? Unstable.... :shake:

Rocky
06-12-2004, 12:22 PM
sunny's PMs = http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/explode.gif

Rocky
06-12-2004, 12:26 PM
From KP this morning.

There are currently 10 votes for Gandalf. I think that whether or not he is EC, there is little reason not to lynch him. Therefore, I think we should abstain from saying anything until this evening in the hopes that he gets lynched by the EC. If they do not come to a decision, we should suggest someone other than Gandalf (Sunny) in order to not to arouse the suspicions of the EC. Then have the slayer stalk someone else. If the EC does not kill Gandalf, we must lynch him next round.

However, I would urge us to stay out of the vote as long as possible.

Thanks,
KP

KP sent this one shortly after the above.

I meant to say lynched by the students instead of lynched by the EC. Can you please fix my quote. Thanks,
KP

Hagbard Celine
06-12-2004, 01:52 PM
If Gandalf is the slayer, it would explain why he's so defensive. And if that's so, maybe there is something to why the ghost forum seems protective of him?

Hey, perhaps working with them would gain some credibility and enable them to listen to you more? I'm not saying you're not working with them. I am perfectly willing to work with you all on my side of things. But anywho, it seems like it's the ghost forum that's been causing confusion for us these days. ;)

Clear it up brutha!! :D

I think she and Gandalf are in cahoots.

4sigma
06-12-2004, 03:12 PM
OK, not Sunny and Not Gandalf:

A concensus is building for Gandalf. If you wish to stop the avalanche, you might want to act soon.

Of course, he's part of my stapler pick, so AFIAC, the sooner we know for sure about him the better.

OK, I realize that I'm talking into the aether here, since you can't respond, but what's going on? Do the ghosts have a problem with us lynching Gandalf? If so, they had best offer up two candidates ASAP, because he has 11 votes, with 13 needed for lynching. I'm not going to unvote Gandalf, because 1) he hasn't addressed the heat upon him directly; and 2) doing so would draw too much attention my way (I have increased my postings somewhat to avoid being a non-poster casualty, but am trying to be somewhat bland.) Assuming that he is not the slayer, I guess it won't hurt us too much to have him in the ghost pool, because he wasn't clearly innocent, and the EC probably had no plans to kill him as a result.

I am concerned about Ebenezer's little rebellion. I also think the game would be more fun without a ghost forum (aka return to lynchmania), but given that there is one, our greatest advantage is to use it as best possible, which I think you were doing well. Why play the game without your best tools?

Also, assuming that there was a legitimate breach, the EC may be holding on to their best guess as to the slayer until we kill the first EC. Otherwise, the slayer would respawn randomly and they'd have to start from scratch in that respect. Unfortunately, this is going to grant KP some legitimacy in the short run (assuming that he doesn't deserve it). We'll have to see how that plays out.

Assuming Sunny is serious about her retirement, we have another Plain M&M issue (from a votes standpoint), if this should continue all the way to the endgame, so combined with the signal/noise level, we may need to take care of this sooner rather than later.

Anyway, thanks for listening, I hope. And how come I never get any cryptic messages?

4sigma
06-12-2004, 03:14 PM
I do not buy the theory that Sunny and Gandalf are in cahoots.

As soon as we hit one EC, everyone scours the forum looking for who that EC was trying to protect. Gandalf is thoroughly familiar with this phenomenon. If Sunny were his EC partner, he would not be taking such obvious actions to protect her.

In order to keep this post on-topic with PMs:

Thanks for the PM b/w you and All Clear. While I cannot respond to any of the game-related content, I can say that I was unaware that you were Supersonic. I do remember your activity under that ID. Thank you for this info.

-- 4σ

You are welcome! :D You will all know, at the end of the day, that I am all truth all the way (maybe a little clueless but)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what I'm saying to Leela (she hasn't opened her pm yet), if you the ghosts want to employ the talent of Supersonic, I can do a ton, especially with regards to pm'ing the students etc. It's just I can't think of anything right now.

DEATH TO THE EC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rocky
06-12-2004, 04:00 PM
Thanks for the PM b/w you and All Clear. While I cannot respond to any of the game-related content, I can say that I was unaware that you were Supersonic. I do remember your activity under that ID. Thank you for this info.

-- 4σ

4sigma,

I'm sure that I'm being way too literal here, but I think that even mentioning the PM from All Clear (if it was game-related) is pushing the boundaries. I am a stickler for rules and will continue to assess communications that are posted here with my interpretation of those rules in mind.

Leela
06-12-2004, 10:40 PM
Besides me of course.... :wink:

I really don't suspect CubedBee....He's been giving good stategy, staying current and really helping out I think. He is very high on my innocent list.

Ultimate Anyone - he hasn't given me any reason to suspect him, but I don't have anything concrete.

Maine-iac - see UA....about the same in my book.

Jables - I put him right under Cubed. I don't think he suspicious. He did let us know that he wouldn't be posting as much under the thread due to the new cube....so I don't think he's guilty.

All Clear - I like his/her strategy, and I think they are being helpful, with good intentions. I feel like this one is innocent.

Traina - same way as All Clear

BC - I really feel that BC is innocent. There are few posts that give good strategy, and I don't see a lot of flaying posts about suspicions.

thing - same as traina and All Clear

macroman - I tend to think he is very innocent. He's quite high on my list.

Werewolf - iffy, but haven't found any reason to suspect as being EC.

(I fail to record the good posts, but if you need better examples, let me know in the thread) A message about clarification will send me looking. I posted about my problems with internet, but I'll do what I can. Could you please post a message in the thread letting me know that this is getting to the ghost forum....you can call me (one who needs affirmation)....(man I crack myself up sometimes...(sorry, been stuck at work reading 69 pages of mostly crap)) Let me know if I need to also PM this to the slayer too please.

In order of my thinking they are innocent (most innocent first):

J.T.(but you knew that, right?), Macroman, CubedBee, Jables, BC, thing, All Clear, Traina, UA?, Maine-iac, and anyone else I mentioned.

I'm really suspicious of Cho Da, Avi, and RSF.

hopefully this is helpful....Thanks, J.T.

Rocky
06-13-2004, 12:34 AM
I just did a quick search, and Jables' posting times have changed dramatically over the last couple of weeks. Most of his posts since then are after 5 PM. His "cubicle" constraint seems legit.

Leela
06-13-2004, 12:53 AM
This message is being copied to Leela.

4sigma told me that the first 5 digits of the zip codes he wrote in the post were real. Slayer to Ghosts: "Please find something for 4sigma to do to help occupy his time." :D :wink:

And lastly, if you would like to do me a favour (this can be done immediatly after the students finally vote for someone, if you like), please post (with 9 digit code) the updated feelings ghosts have for people, so I don't have to search through previous posts and wonder if the ghosts have changed their minds since then. It can all be done in one post, if you want. I assume that Mulan (and KP...) are very not guilty, so all the others will suffice.

Reminder, Leela- please post the numbers (as per our latest code, that I sent on June 11th in the very early morning) of those considered to be lynched, if they are people I have not already confirmed are not the slayer. However, if you believe that posting a code would make the ghosts look less "cool" or make it less likely to be followed, a code is not necessary, I guess, other than letting me know who you are heavily suspecting, and allowing me to give my thoughts. I can tell you that I have already mentioned that the slayer is NOT Mulan, Sunny, Rocky, and Will Durant. In addition, the current popular vote getters, Cho-Da, Gandalf, and Sunny (already mentioned) are not the slayer either, though I would reccomend against hitting Gandalf- he sent me a long pm, and assuming he went along with your plan, probably isn't EC.

Leela
06-13-2004, 01:07 AM
This may be an important one for you to get now, before the name selection time, in case he is lying.

From Gandalf,

Wow. I'm still alive, at least for the moment. I realized at dinner I've been remiss at talking to you. Nothing critical, since I knew if I got by the students I still would need to get by you and would tell you then.

But at dinner it struck me: if the students lynch me, I can't tell you anything. Also, you're a living, voting student. If you're prepared to accept my story when you're deciding who to stake, you aren't likely to want to vote for me. And if you vote and keep me alive, then hear anything different, you'll have no problem deciding who to stake.

I think I told you some of this, and I don't think you want to look at all the PMs I've sent the ghosts. But if you want them all, just ask and you'll receive (if I'm still living).

Anyway, the bare facts:
1. 4Sigma said publicly the ghost forum may have been compromised. Urysohn said that was part of the game.
2. I PMed 4Sigma that I sure hope this was a scam organized by the ghosts, tho I couldn't imagine why. I responded in the public thread that betraying the team you're on is not part of the game. My best guess, at that time, was that 4Sigma was for real, and KP had done something. (Incidentally, something that no one picked up on: I said KP had not broken any rules, and even PMed 4Sigma that if KP had PMed any living students he was breaking the rules. I had no inkling at that time how I was going to drift the thread.)
3. KP responded that I had caused the ghosts to throw him out. This was clearly false, as I and all the ghosts knew. I had said nothing against him (except suggesting he was EC, in good faith, until Mr. P confirmed he was an innocent student). There was never any vendetta, prior to 4Sigma's announcement and he knew it.
4. I PMed 4Sigma that OK, after KP's response I believe the whole thing must be a hoax, for some purpose I still couldn't fathom, but that I would play along. And even stir the pot.
5. So OK, if the ghosts (which I think include KP) want me to have been the basis for the suspicion and want KP to look like he compromised the forum, when Kenshiro (I think) keeps asking what he did, I make up a blatant lie. In retrospect, a bad idea, but I was trying to cooperate with the ghosts intent as I perceived it.
6. OK, Mr. P (reasonably gets upset). I come 100% clean to him, and in public thread suggest no punishment for KP, maybe I was the only one who received a PM, etc. No one else came forward since he didn't send any PMs at all, AFAIK, and I never asked anyone to fabricate anything against him.
7. It still seems like it is an ugly scene, so I PM both 4Sigma and Leela saying that it's fine with me if they want to say I told them I got a PM from KP. They choose not to, suggesting to me that they are happy with the status quo.
8. I think KP is with the ghosts (and to this moment my guess is that he is), but either way I send him a PM that says if he posts "Gandalf, confess" in the public thread I will. He opens the PM, and chooses not to ask me to confess about it. Who knows why? Probably, because the ghosts are happy with me sticking to the lie. Maybe, because he is not among the ghosts, and figures I'm going to be lynched for sure if I stick to that story.
9. Meanwhile I'm getting real concerned about these ghosts (and still am). I think I'm cooperating, yet they seem to do nothing to intercede. Such is life. I can't believe they think I'm EC, even if my bumbling somehow interferred with their real agenda (or maybe they even had no agenda). So it ought to be in their interests to let the EC get me rather than waste a student turn. (or a slayer stake).

This is already a lot. There's a lot of words, but nothing much different, in the PMs I sent the ghosts. If you want them, just ask. And if you think I may be lying about anything in this account, just send this to the ghosts.

I hope he is telling the truth. If not, send me in code that he is almost surely EC, and I'll knock him next round. Maybe confirm with KP that he got the PM Gandalf refers to. Assuming this is true, he appears unlikely to be an EC member.


From Sunny, June 11th 8:45PM

Hey Sunny. I wanted to thank you for the message you sent me, as well as the one you sent me a while back. Though I feel bad telling you this, I had questions about whether you were EC then. I still have questions now, but not enough to stop me from writing back to you. :-)

Yes, I am just an innocent student and am happy that you saw that. I made a couple of posts earlier that made others think that as well, I guess. And please, let me know your thoughts. The thing is, this is sort of a he said / she said kind of thing. Gandalf seems pretty smart, and I don't think he would have done something like this if he was EC... so while I do suspect him more than I used to, I am not convinced as you are. If he gets lynched, fine. I think the ghost forum may be better off with him (they seem to be messing up, with a possible leak- I don't really know the specifics of what happend with Karma Police), but I would like to hold off on voting for him myself. Definitley continue to tell other people this, though, and if most think he is guilty, he should be lynched. Thanks, Sunny.

For what it's worth, and the nth time, I am just an innocent student as well. I post a lot in general, don't know if you know this but my nickname was Supersonic, and I have the most post per day count ever in the entire RF. So me posting all over this thread, if anything, is exactly my style. Those that have been around know that about me.

Anywho, I am not convinced about Gandalf. I am more very suspicious of him, and have been from the beginning when I had that slip-off and that chat conversation with EC1 and pm'd three students I thought might be innocent, and one of them was Gandalf, who was the least helpful (!!, you would have thought otherwise compared to how helpful he seems publicly), and he was the only one who didn't warn me about pm'ing too many others, lest I include an EC--seems to me he is more than happy if I get sloppy. His response was the most terse, and least helpful. The other two sent back generous and elaborate tips and thoughts etc. They are, I can tell you, cubedbee and 4sigma. I believe cubedbee this turn is totally innocent, and he doesn't think I am EC of course, and we converse and trust each other. And as we all know, 4sigma is not EC.

Anyways, I think at this point Gandalf is not to be trusted. He's been behaving wierdly since a long time ago. For example, he and I didn't get along and I remember he would jerk me and we had a major run-in once. So his flirting with me is completely unnatural, to say the least, and very forced. This was actually mentioned by cubedbee at first, as he is the more experienced poster, and then even I noticed.

In any case, we could be wrong. But we cannot afford to have Gandalf being the EC and the ghost forum listening to him so much that KP--who is not EC for sure!--was kicked out of the ghost forum! Actually, I understand he is a strategist, and obviously I appear to be a bimbo out there and have purposely been careless (cuz hey I am not EC and I have nothing to hide dagnabbit!!) out there, but I don't see how he is so much smarter than anyone else. I know Karma irl, he is dang smart himself. He's passed every single exam so far, and I believed just passed c4, (and the dang hard Nov 03 c3), and even though he is like 22/23, he's making more than I do (just so you know, although I look young, I'm turning 31 next Sat)!!!

Anywho, thanks for the reply, for all I know, I've met you in NYC either studying or at the exam center! :) It is nice meeting you finally, even though on it is on the eve of my retirement from this forum. ;)

DEATH TO THE EC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


From 4sigma, June 11th 7:21PM

Since this isn't directly game-related, I think I'm allowed to drop you a message.

Just wanted to let you know that the ZIP codes actually do correspond to the cities listed, at least the first 5 digits do. I checked them at the USPS website.

I'm having way too much fun with this.

Will someone please have 4Sigma do some real work in ghost heaven? He seems to have tons of free time. :D :wink:

4sigma
06-13-2004, 03:50 AM
Thanks for the PM b/w you and All Clear. While I cannot respond to any of the game-related content, I can say that I was unaware that you were Supersonic. I do remember your activity under that ID. Thank you for this info.

-- 4σ

4sigma,

I'm sure that I'm being way too literal here, but I think that even mentioning the PM from All Clear (if it was game-related) is pushing the boundaries. I am a stickler for rules and will continue to assess communications that are posted here with my interpretation of those rules in mind.

Rocky,

This was a PM that Sunny sent me that All Clear had sent her. I was thanking her for sending that on to me. I too am a stickler for the rules and would not provide any EC-game info to a living student now that I am dead.

Rocky
06-13-2004, 12:03 PM
:horse:

Fair enough, I suppose, since no game-related info was exchanged.

Like I said, my interpretation is that there should be no mention in PM's about game-related activities. Since I get roughly zero non game-related PM's, it's easy for me to hold fast to that rule. :D

4sigma
06-13-2004, 03:21 PM
This message is being sent to 4sigma as well.

I saw the following numbers in the thread, first from Leela 047890 and 208761, and then from 4sigma of 152946, 314159, and 345678. (The 9 digit numbers I will check out when it is my turn to hit someone)

04 = Oblomov. Leela, please check the revised code I sent you, which has the first 2 numbers mattering ( h h _ _ _ _ ), and starting from 00 with thing, and going to 34 at Ebenezer. Oblomov, of course, was already lynched. The only person next to Oblomov on the list that is alive is Mulan, and based on what she wrote to me, she appears to not be EC. She is not the slayer, however, so if you all think she is guilty, reccomend away.

20 = Maineiac. I have no strong thoughts on him/her either way. He is not the slayer, so if that name is chosen by the ghosts, feel free to post it.

15 = Traina. I am not convinced she has done much that is worthy of guilt. Suddenly I check the vote tally, and she had 4 or 5. While I don't exactly understand the reasoning that people are voting for her, if the ghosts find those reasons to be valid, she is not the slayer. Feel free to post her name.

31 = Cho Da. I don't think he is EC. I actually suspected him a time back, but his latest posts have me thinking he is more of someone that just doesn't post so much in the recent months. I am also reluctant to follow the argument that because he has hosted a game, he should know the good strategies. The game he played a while back was much simpler, and was finished in under three weeks, with little time for advanced strategy thought. He is not the slayer, however.

34 = Ebenezer. While his original post encouraging students to vote was bothersome in and of itself, and I don't think helpful to the students in any way, his insisting on only 2 names, of those that get the highest total, is even worse. I would actually reccomend putting his name as one of the choices, maybe in addition to another name or two. Or just his name. Whatever you all think is best.

To review, none of the names given to me (Ebenezer, Cho Da, Traina, Maineiac, or Oblomov (perhaps Mulan?)) are the slayer. Nor is Gandalf or Sunny, the top vote getters. Please note that I will have only slight RF access for the rest of today and tomorrow, so I may not be able to send or do anything else until Tuesday afternoon or so.

Leela
06-13-2004, 10:19 PM
A couple of pms I recently received...

I do think like you...

The part about the code in a post from KP sounds like me more as a parody of others posts with code than as a real code... Of course, if it is the case, it would have been pretty much impossible to him to convince all ghosts of that...

So if he is really innocent, Gandalf gets a lot more suspicious than he was before !

Yeah. Let's lynch him. :D


With luck, we hit one. Either could be, though you know I believe Sunny is innocent. EK may still try to lynch me. :crazy:

As you know, I am uncomfortable with how my lie about KP has played out. I stick to it in part because it is in the students' interests not to lynch me, also because I think Karma Police may in fact be a ghost in fine standing and completely OK with this. It remains fine with me if you want to indicate it is a lie.

(also sent to EC_Slayer)

4sigma
06-14-2004, 06:20 AM
I think Will Durant is almost certainly guilty. It would be nice to get EC once.

I think he's guilty based on his tone, some of his reasoning seems faulty or counterproductive, and his unwillingness to vote with the Slayer in Round 1.

If you need more information about the posts that are suspicious, I'll try to get time to do it.Note that I think his unwillingness to vote with the slayer in Round 1 is a sign of his innocence rather than guilt. I agree that some of his reasoning has been faulty. I attribute this to a first-time game player.

This is a PM Mulan sent me last Thursday which I somehow forgot to post earlier:
Right now, I'm pretty sure of Will Durant as EC. AND I have reason to believe that the sleeper is not dead yet. EC1 pmed me that he was afraid that EC2 would turn on him. Not a very good reason, but reason all the same.


Gandalf is a bit perplexed by my post about him in the public thread, to say the least. The following PM from him was titled, "What?"Sent to 4Sigma, Leela and Slayer
Regarding Gandalf, my opinion is that he has been attempting to assist the ghosts in getting KP disciplined. The bad blood between himself and KP has been evident even before the recent incident. Perhaps Gandalf feels it is important to discredit KP to the ghosts.
What??? Possibly you could have believed, at the very earliest, that I wanted him disciplined, since I think my PM in advance of first claiming he PMed me only referred to "stirring the pot", not claiming he PMed me. But I never made the claim except in the public thread (subsequently, also in one PM in response to a question from a player). [In fact, what no one has picked up on, is that my very first response after the "security breach" was to say that he did not break any rules. If the students ever notice that, I'm in big trouble.] "Bad blood"? My "most likely" interpretation of this thing, ever since his public response to the post where I said he broke no rules but shouldn't sign up for one team and play for the other, is still that you and he are working together on this. Before that response from him, I feared the worst (e.g., my suggestion that if you really think he betrayed us, we should lynch the slayer [until this PM, I haven't mentioned that to my good friend Slayer. :) ] Could you mean my suspicion of his death scene, where he didn't say he was innocent student and I warned you not to let him in the ghost forum until we knew? I thought the was EC before it, and thought he might be EC after it (up until Mr. P confirmed he was innocent student). I would have admired an EC who tried that coup.

Not quite sure what he expected me to post, since we're still pursuing our hoax. I can't very well post that he misunderstood our hoax. I expect to see Gandalf in the ghost forum in the near to medium term, and am curious what he thinks we should have done.

Rocky
06-14-2004, 09:01 AM
This is a PM Mulan sent me last Thursday which I somehow forgot to post earlier:
Right now, I'm pretty sure of Will Durant as EC. AND I have reason to believe that the sleeper is not dead yet. EC1 pmed me that he was afraid that EC2 would turn on him. Not a very good reason, but reason all the same.

Do we have this PM from EC1 to Mulan? If not, can we get it?

First impression is that EC1 is just playing around here, but there may be a little something in the PM that helps our profiling.

Hagbard Celine
06-14-2004, 09:10 AM
I think I said before that I was going on vacation 6/21-6/24. I was going to proxy my vote to you, since I was positive that you were innocent. Dang me :) Anywhoo, I have no idea who to proxy this to, since you are dead, so I am proposing this. I am going to give you a code that only you and I know (hopefully you trust me), and I'm hoping that you can give me some guidance as to whom to proxy.

I am suspicious of Gandalf (and RSF).

Maybe you can help me out in a code. I hestitate to ask you since all of this may end of getting you kicked out of the ghost forum, but maybe you can help me.

EK - 411
CubedBee - 611
will - 123
Cho Da -969
J.T. - 342
Avi - 643
ultimate anyone - 979
Gandalf - 325
Kenshiro - 823
Jables - 754
maine-iac - 428
Asynch - 962
anon - 148
All Clear - 834
jadzia - 534
Traina - 724
RSF - 423
Sunny - 666
BC - 214
kaput shakur - 684
Butters - 333
Macroman - 999
werewolf - 198
Mulan - 201
thing - 500
4sigma - 842
KP - 167
you - 402
Ahow - 874
snafu - 524
Supersilverhaze - 542
leela - 624

Leaving off oblomov and stu....since we haven't heard from them (I don't think)....go with an obscure number if we have...

Good luck on your mission, if you choose to accept it....please post :) in the thread....if not, please post :cry:

thanks....and I understand either way. :kiss:

I got this from JT over the weekend, thus my :cry: to the thread. She sent me another one asking me to post this to the ghost thread. Does anyone care if I suggest someone to proxy her vote to? Does anyone have any suggestions about who to choose?

We don't even have to suggest someone we "know" is innocent, because it doesn't really matter. If she proxies to an EC and that person goes against JT's wishes, it will be too suspicious.

Hagbard Celine
06-14-2004, 09:53 AM
From Gandalf to KP regarding Cho Da's "death scene:"

I agree. Weird if it was supposed to be a death scene. As with your situation, I will suggest to Leela that obviously she should not let him into the ghost forum yet.

Thanks,
KP

And, can I get a ruling on the JT PM?

Leela
06-14-2004, 10:12 AM
And, can I get a ruling on the JT PM?


I think we need to give this some thought. I don't know if we want to suggest someone we "know" is innocent for a couple of reasons. If J.T. is EC, this might be giving away an innocent person. Or more likely, the EC may kill J.T.'s proxy to get rid of 2 votes. If we suggest someone we're on the fence about, we can see how they act, and maybe get some more insight on their position. Thoughts from other ghosts??

Hagbard Celine
06-14-2004, 10:18 AM
I agree we shouldn't suggest someone we "know" to be innocent. I also think that a lot of info may become available by seeing what happens if we select someone we're unsure about. If the person we're unsure about is EC, they risk too much to go against what JT said...

Rocky
06-14-2004, 11:33 AM
Could J.T. be running an "end around" to see if we suggest something that conflicts with the info that the EC is getting from KP?

I'd suggest that we either give her someone that we think is suspicious ( Werewolf or Sunny [maybe I'm the only one that considers her suspicious]) or just leave her to make her own choice.

Leela
06-14-2004, 11:37 AM
We want to be careful about giving her a name that we might suggest for lynching next time.

Rocky
06-14-2004, 11:52 AM
We want to be careful about giving her a name that we might suggest for lynching next time.

I totally agree.

It's sounding more and more like we should let her choose her own proxy vote. I especially don't like the idea that she's suggesting code. I understand why she'd want to, but I don't like it one bit.

Leela
06-14-2004, 12:57 PM
(sent to EC_slayer and Leela)

Too bad. At this point I would suggest you not stake Sunny. She was already on my probably innocent list, but more important if you stake her the net result is that the students' power was somewhat illusory: the students did not take the suggested Sunny, and she is staked anyway. Bad idea unless you're right; and you can always wait a round.

Obviously the ghosts have some idea I'm innocent (they're not protecting me as a slayer). So I sure hope you'll run a plan to stake me by them first, so you would know whether they think I'm very unlikely to be EC, or just thought Cho Da and Sunny were a little more likely.

My thoughts are pretty much the same as before. The people I thought were innocent, I still do. To the extent I suspect anyone, it's Jables, but I think it is more likely that one or both EC are quiet (a category Jables fits, too). Staking Jables now, when he received no student votes, would be a little weird, though your decisions are your own, guided as much or as little by students and ghosts as you please.

Good hunting.

Leela
06-14-2004, 03:33 PM
Slayer (w/ copy to ghosts via Leela):

I am very curious and concerned as to why Gandalf was protected this round. The ghosts deliberately picked around Gandalf for voting. The biggest signal this sends is that Gandalf=Slayer (Hi Gandalf??). Given this, it is quite likely that the EC will kill Gandalf on their turn.

Given this, if the slayer gets lucky and kills an EC this turn, the subsequent death of the slayer would leave us at a distinct disadvantage for the rest of the game.

Regardless of whether Gandalf=Slayer, it seems unlikely that we can be convinced of Gandalf's innocence if we get to the endgame. If the EC doesn't kill Gandalf this turn or next (they may wait until the first EC is killed so that they get a permanent kill), then the students are going to have to seriously consider that Gandalf=EC, since the EC isn't killing a very likely slayer.

One possible, and drastic, alternative, if Gandalf=Slayer, would be for the Slayer to commit suicide while we are still guaranteed a new slayer. That way, we are much less at risk of permanently losing the slayer after we kill the 1st EC. We would obviously want to verify w/ Mr. Penguin that there would not be any unwanted repercussions or penalties for doing this.

Otherwise, if Gandalf&lt;&gt;Slayer, I think it is very important that the ghosts publicize the information that convinced them that Gandalf was innocent despite the wishes of the students. I realize that that will be giving up too much infomation, but the students will have a tough time believing that Gandalf is innocent if the EC doesn't kill him for being the likely slayer.

Another possibility is that the ghosts picked around Gandalf as a red herring to cause the EC to waste a round on an innocent Gandalf. This would make sense, but it will leave the students in a difficult situation if Gandalf is not killed, as we won't know this either and will have to suspect Gandalf=EC.

I haven't thought this through to completion, so this may not be the optimal strategy according to BC's model or subjectively given the information that is out there. I wanted to get it out ASAP since the slayer's pick was due. Thanks for your efforts on our behalf.

Asynchronous

Hagbard Celine
06-16-2004, 12:19 PM
I know Mulan is an innocent student. It was originally cubedbee’s idea to roll on Mulan the round before last when we naively thought the active students still had some say in who was eventually lynched. There is no way cubedbee would have done this with Mulan as the sleeper or EC.

I would still like to lynch Mulan for spite though. :D

4sigma
06-16-2004, 08:27 PM
A PM from our favorite EC member:
I confess that you had me fooled this game. I thought you were more likely innocent based on the PM you sent me when I asked you about the EC strategy post you made. Also I thought it was a point in your favor when you pointed out to Sunny that I was probably innocent. Sunny forwarded on your PM to me where you said that to her when she was suspicious of all the people who joined her in chat.

It is a good thing that there are others in the game who are more perceptive than I am. I think you played your role well.

While I know you're under no obligation, I'm curious if you can comment on your motives in taking me out when you did.

-- 4σ

Well I'm glad I at least fooled a few people. I was happy with how I played, and can't wait to find out what gave me away to the slayer. Sunny was my dupe. She trusted me way too easily, and I knew she's be forwarding what I said to other players.

As for killing you, we mainly saw you as a strong strategist who had not come under suspicion yet. The ghosts seemed to have a much weaker position this game because of the communication rules, and we figured we'd rather have you not able to communicate to living students. Of course, that was before the codes started to be so regularly used. As someone pointed out in the thread (you maybe??), the codes are obviously one-time pads (unless you ghosts are even stupider than I thought :)), and as such are unbreakable and go against the spirit of the rules. In retrospect, I don't know if I would have wanted to kill you as early, although I can't say for sure how much of an influence you've had on the ghost forum.

I think this is pretty good evidence that Sunny is not EC, unless she is the sleeper. Note also his strategy in terms of targeting. This is consistent with the subsequent hits of Rocky and Gandalf.

4sigma
06-17-2004, 08:28 PM
This PM from Avi is apparently in response to my public taunt about his use of perspicacious and a priori.
The fact that the lizard is dead wrong should not prevent me from speaking properly, should it?

Anyway - with vocab, ya lose if ya don't use it.

And B³'s whining is getting on my nerves :evil:

So, leader of the ghosts, please take my points into consideration when you (et al.) make your selections.

This one from BC was titled "this was cubedbee's post"
Bold added by me:

>>>>>
My outburst has proved nothing. I've lost this game already, and have no real interest in it except to have fun. I respect my ex-partner and I didn't want to hurt their chances at wining, but I'm sick of the way you're treating posters I like. Screw the promise, I'm outing you.

Avi was the sleeper and is now EC. Leela, I hope when this is proven true, it will guarantee my admission to the ghost forum. As I told you, I'm not going to betray my original partner to you, but neither will I communicate from the ghost forum too them.
>>>>>

Okay, I realize the subject of that sentence is singular, and that "their" is often used as a gender-neutral pronoun, but isn't there the possibility that cubedbee just slipped up and admitted that the sleeper has been activated?

Theoretically, that could also be a deliberate feint, although then I'd think the subject would also be plural, and I don't think our (late) EC1 is smart enough to think of it.

I also realize this information may not help us all that much, but at least I'm suggesting something that doesn't have equations for a change, right?Personally, I see the use of "their" as just as substitute for "his" or "her" in order to conceal EC2's gender. Not that I think EC2 is at all likely to be female, given their posts and the a priori odds of selecting a female.

Gandalf
06-18-2004, 09:36 AM
Do we have a policy about PMs from EK? I received one after my death scene, with no specific instructions about whether I should or should not post it. It doesn't address any of the people we are considering proposing this round anyway.

Leela
06-18-2004, 09:42 AM
If you feel it has information that would be helpful to the cause and he hasn't not asked that it not be posted, feel free to post it.

Rocky
06-18-2004, 09:56 AM
EK's PM's are not treated differently than any others. If the sender asks that we not share it, we don't. Otherwise, if it pertains to the game, we generally post it here.

Rocky
06-18-2004, 09:58 AM
This PM from Avi is apparently in response to my public taunt about his use of perspicacious and a priori.
The fact that the lizard is dead wrong should not prevent me from speaking properly, should it?

Anyway - with vocab, ya lose if ya don't use it.

And B³'s whining is getting on my nerves :evil:

So, leader of the ghosts, please take my points into consideration when you (et al.) make your selections.

This one from BC was titled "this was cubedbee's post"
Bold added by me:

>>>>>
My outburst has proved nothing. I've lost this game already, and have no real interest in it except to have fun. I respect my ex-partner and I didn't want to hurt their chances at wining, but I'm sick of the way you're treating posters I like. Screw the promise, I'm outing you.

Avi was the sleeper and is now EC. Leela, I hope when this is proven true, it will guarantee my admission to the ghost forum. As I told you, I'm not going to betray my original partner to you, but neither will I communicate from the ghost forum too them.
>>>>>

Okay, I realize the subject of that sentence is singular, and that "their" is often used as a gender-neutral pronoun, but isn't there the possibility that cubedbee just slipped up and admitted that the sleeper has been activated?

Theoretically, that could also be a deliberate feint, although then I'd think the subject would also be plural, and I don't think our (late) EC1 is smart enough to think of it.

I also realize this information may not help us all that much, but at least I'm suggesting something that doesn't have equations for a change, right?Personally, I see the use of "their" as just as substitute for "his" or "her" in order to conceal EC2's gender. Not that I think EC2 is at all likely to be female, given their posts and the a priori odds of selecting a female.

At first, I thought this was a little ploy by B^3 to keep us wondering if there are 1 or 2 EC left. You may be right, 4sigma, but I'd recommend not making this a solid lock for an EC2 trait. Still, it's worth noting in the EC2 profile thread as a possibility.

Gandalf
06-18-2004, 10:04 AM
There is no way an EC would give me permission to give false speculation about them after my death and confirmation as an innocent student. You should have more reason to doubt me than him.
I'm not sure I follow the background on this. I'll have to look back in my PMs while alive. He didn't send many, and obviously PMs to a living student weren't directly intended for the Ghost forum. I think there was one telling me, after I had suggested Anonymouse, that Anon. was innocent, but I don't think he was specific about why.

Also, I don't know why an innocent student would agree to false speculation either. I can't imagine what sort of story line EK was providing.

Leela
06-18-2004, 01:05 PM
Sunny won't tell me the date of her departure for Egypt. Very very very very suspicious.


Sunny: Egypt adn Greece
karma police: How are you getting to Egypt?
Sunny: Jfk-Cairo-Athens-Cairo-JFK
karma police: Direct flight?
Msg: cavey joined chat on Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:58 am
cavey: .
karma police: Which airline?
Sunny: also some boat in the mediterranean I suppose
Sunny: to the Greek Isles
Sunny: Egypt Air
cavey: bring back some hash if you can
Sunny: in case it gets hijacked, you can pray for me
karma police: when do you leave?
Sunny: I'll bring some Red Sea water
Sunny: to dump over your head cavey
Sunny: sometime
karma police: What date do you leave
Sunny: soon karma
Sunny: soon enough
Sunny:
karma police: When??
Sunny: (I'm not even at work today)
Sunny: not telling
Msg: Reaper Temp Agency has joined chat on Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:59 am
cavey: hey KP...ch-check this out
cavey: "not telling" = "not actually going"
cavey: wh-what's it all about?
cavey: ch-check it out
Sunny:
cavey: work this- work this party out


I'm going to tell her that I have to leave chat since she is now talking about the game.

Rocky
06-18-2004, 02:06 PM
AFTER RESEARCHING EGYPTAIR'S WEBSITE, I THINK THAT HE IS INCORRECT IN HIS PM BELOW. PLEASE DISREGARD AS EVIDENCE.


call him Snoopy...


I caught Sunny in a lie. Post this near my previous PMs. Based on expedia.com, EgyptAir doesn't fly directly from JFK to Cairo!

4sigma
06-18-2004, 08:32 PM
News from the dairy:I know people were sending the ghosts their suspect lists in the last game, so I just wanted to send in my list of suspects. I really don't have any good evidence backing these selections, but I have been following this thread closely. I hope my intuition is right! :D

Probability of being EC (in no particular order within a category)
High: Avi, Mulan, Will Durant, Asynchronous, Maine-iac, Kenshiro, jadzia
Medium: Ebenezer Kohlx, thing, BC, Macroman, J.T., Ultimate Anyone, Werewolf, Traina, All Clear, Anonymouse
Low: RedSoxFan, Kaput Shakur, Sunny, Jables (my best guess at the identity of the slayer)
None: Butters (although if I were another student, I'd probably rank myself as a medium probability)

Sunny
06-21-2004, 06:28 PM
I have these suspects as EC,

Maine-iac
RedSoxFan
Will Durant

Please rally the students and lynch them, and in that order.

What evidence have you got? I can suggest them, but I need to have something to back up.
I don't think Will is guilty though, cause CubedBee had him as a stapler pick. I think EC could only have innocent students as their picks.
===========================================
How was your birthday???

Was great. Did a lot. Went to a concert Sat night (with 10,000 other new yorkers ;) )and a play Sunday night. Although I did volunteer (through church) and painted on Sat. I wanted to serve on my birthday purposely. Have been trying to serve more, and die to self.

On my 30th bday last year, I spent my birthday at the concentration camp in Prague.

I guess I've been really trying to die to self and alive in Christ. But not very effectively I must confess. :(

I also haven't really started on c4 YET! :swear: getting a little stressed out now cuz I probably won't really get started till late July (after my vacation). :x

or that chess player that I thought was my friend..

Are you talking about me? :-?

:lol:

yeah, i've no idea what I'm talking about, as usual. ;)
===========================================
I have these suspects as EC,

Maine-iac
RedSoxFan
Will Durant

Please rally the students and lynch them, and in that order.
A target has already been selected. I'll consider these for the round after.

Gandalf
06-21-2004, 08:53 PM
You may share this with the GC.

All I ask is a simple time easily given.

Mr. Penguin posts the beginning on Monday, May 24, at 9:35.

EC2 posts at 12:04, 12:20, and 1:28 on Monday.

I sent a PM to EC2 on Monday, May 24, at 3:45. I received a reply exactly one hour later.

cubedbee directed EC2 to stop talking and PM a candidate for death.

IMPORTANT: Place Super Silver Haze notification time of death on here.

Gandalf, please post that time for me to see on the board.

I understand time depends on timezone so please take into account synching with Central.


Anonymouse is not EC2. Anonymouse could be the sleeper but there is no evidence to indicate that. GC wants more details? I bet they do! Moronic dead losers. :lol: Especially that 4sigma wanker.
Maybe he thinks notification comes from the EC? I don't know why the time of notification by Mr. P is critical. I think we should give it to him, though.

I am going to make a somewhat cryptic public post in response to make sure he knows that Mr. P provides notification.

Sunny
06-21-2004, 09:21 PM
I have these suspects as EC,

Maine-iac
RedSoxFan
Will Durant

Please rally the students and lynch them, and in that order.

Why these? What do you think about EK? Appreciate it if you would give some hints in the public forum.

snafu
06-21-2004, 09:24 PM
You may share this with the GC.

All I ask is a simple time easily given.

Mr. Penguin posts the beginning on Monday, May 24, at 9:35.

EC2 posts at 12:04, 12:20, and 1:28 on Monday.

I sent a PM to EC2 on Monday, May 24, at 3:45. I received a reply exactly one hour later.

cubedbee directed EC2 to stop talking and PM a candidate for death.

IMPORTANT: Place Super Silver Haze notification time of death on here.

Gandalf, please post that time for me to see on the board.

I understand time depends on timezone so please take into account synching with Central.


Anonymouse is not EC2. Anonymouse could be the sleeper but there is no evidence to indicate that. GC wants more details? I bet they do! Moronic dead losers. :lol: Especially that 4sigma wanker.
Maybe he thinks notification comes from the EC? I don't know why the time of notification by Mr. P is critical. I think we should give it to him, though.

I am going to make a somewhat cryptic public post in response to make sure he knows that Mr. P provides notification.

Could he be going after time zone and ability to post from work :-?

The lunchtime posts and a 4:45 reply could imply central time zone and inability (either work- or self-enforced) to post on company time. Just a guess. If I have time, I'll follow up on this with the posttime downloads that I have and shifting them. Can someone start putting together a list of the remaining live students and their timezone if known.

Super Silver Haze
06-21-2004, 09:26 PM
IMPORTANT: Place Super Silver Haze notification time of death on here.
Maybe he thinks notification comes from the EC? I don't know why the time of notification by Mr. P is critical. I think we should give it to him, though.

The timestamp on the notification mail from Mr. P says May 24, 4:08 pm... and my time zone is set to "GMT - 5 Hours".

Gandalf
06-21-2004, 11:53 PM
Timezones I think:

Will Durant ??
Avi - eastern
Ebenezer Kohl - central
Traina - somewhere in Canada
Jadzia - French Canadian
BC - ??
Maine-iac - eastern
Ultimate anyone - ??
Asynchronous - ??
All Clear - ??
Werewolf - ??
Kaput Shakur - ??
Jables - eastern
RedSox Fan - eastern I guess from the id
Kenshiro - ??
Anonymouse - central
JT - central
Macroman - ??
Mulan - central

Gandalf
06-22-2004, 12:47 AM
2. As to your other theory, the ghost council had tentatively decided Mr. P was not EC2. I suppose he could be the sleeper. In any case, Mr. P performed the action you asked about at 4:08 PM.
Thank you. This is key and gives away EC2. I'm hoping you geniuses can figure this one out. I must be delusional. Let me draw you a roadmap.

Mon May 24, 2004 9:35 am
The game is on!

EC members have been notified, as has The Slayer.

Good luck to one and all!

cubedbee and EC2 are selected and notified.

Mon May 24, 2004 12:04 pm
Death to the EC!
Death to J.T.

BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAA!!!!!
EC2 is the first to post before EC veteran cubedbee.

Mon May 24, 2004 12:20 pm
Death to the EC!
Death to J.T.

BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAA!!!!!

Since EC2 has a SOA logo I would like to point out that as a CAS candidate, I am definitely NOT EC2.
Nice try.
snafu busts EC2 on what may have been a rookie mistake.

Mon May 24, 2004 1:11 pm
Stop talking to yourself, and PM me who you want to kill.
cubedbee posts harshly to EC2 and BEGINS consideration of their first killing. I speculate cubedbee sent EC2 a PM at this point telling him to make one more harmless post and shut the heck up as his first two posts gave too much away.

Mon May 24, 2004 1:28 pm
EC1 and/or EC2, please post who you will kill before their death scene.
Well, you, of course. :duh:

Mon May 24, 2004 1:50 pm
EC1 and/or EC2, please post who you will kill before their death scene.

Why?
So we can verify whether they are really EC, or just students (or those creepy non-players who lurk here) messing around with another ID.
cubedbee doesn’t show fear in making posts under his real alias. Perhaps this will embolden EC2 to do the same.

Mon May 24, 2004 3:06 pm
Mon May 24, 2004 3:37 pm
Mon May 24, 2004 3:38 pm
Mon May 24, 2004 3:41 pm
Mon May 24, 2004 3:46 pm
Mr. Penguin makes a string of posts AND DOES NOT NOTIFY SUPER SILVER HAZE!!!

Mon May 24, 2004 3:45 pm
I PM EC2.

Mon May 24, 2004 3:48 pm
I'll play. You can trust me not to be EC.

Is the mole playing or spectating? He made the above comment, but I don't see his name on the players list.
I speculate cubedbee PMs Mr. Penguin and marks Super Silver Haze for death.

Mon May 24, 2004 3:51 pm Rocky
Mon May 24, 2004 3:53 pm Mr. Penguin
Mon May 24, 2004 3:53 pm 4sigma
Mon May 24, 2004 4:04 pm Avi

Mr. Penguin notifies Super Silver Haze at 4:08. I speculate in the last twenty minutes EC2 was logged in under his real alias and marked Super Silver Haze.

Mon May 24, 2004 4:11 pm
The EC have chosen their first victim. They will have until tomorrow morning at 9 am to post their death scene. Deadline for the student selected lynching is Friday morning, 9 am. Let the speculation begin. :D

EC2 logs out of his real alias and logs into the EC2 alias and checks my PM, considers a response, and sends the PM at 4:45. I note the proper grammar skills used in the PM and immediately think Will Durant.

However, cubedbee and I had a good number of votes placed on Will Durant, so maybe not Will. Then who?

Tue May 25, 2004 9:31 am
You're not going to be killing either of us this round. :moon2:

We won't be giving away any clues to our identities this early. :roll:

Just pick someone randomly and get on with it. :burn:
I think cubedbee is covering on the second day realizing EC2 messed up. EC2 did give his identity away on the first day. Perhaps some even thought Avi was a good target at this point and cubedbee provides more reason, except under EC1, thus taking the heat off Avi as EC2. But we know better, don’t we?

cubedbee made the witless prattle comment. Avi was ready to respond to criticism.
I think his interpretation of some of the points is wrong, but overall it hangs together quite well.
Maybe it even fits with the totally bizarre hit of Sunny. A random hit elsewhere and we may think "why not Avi?". Sunny was so bizarre a choice that I at least was focused on "why Sunny?"

snafu
06-22-2004, 12:21 PM
TO BE SHARED WITH THE GHOST FORUM

I AM ALSO SENDING THIS TO THE SLAYER AND EK WHO MADE THE SUGGESTION.

Last night I looked through all the posts since the Slayer off'ed CubedBee, looking for possible changes in behavior. As you mentioned in the thread, a smart sleeper who became EC would be careful not to change anything. That seems to be the case; I found nothing substantial.

The only thing that was even remotely different was this odd rash of proxying, but don't see that this means anything at all.

Sorry that this line of attack was unsuccessful. I thought EK might have had a good idea with this.

Gandalf
06-22-2004, 01:28 PM
I’m not quoting the EC2 PM for you if that is what you want. I am honestly confused why you keep mentioning 52 minutes when it was exactly 60 minutes later. Knowing that EC2 was online at that time should be good enough. If the quote matters, the GC only looks for reasons to discount me.

How about this: Why don’t you just add 2 hours and 5 minutes to whatever time you want me to give more details?
I don't think I'll get it, but I have posted that time (6:50, unless I've screwed up again) publicly.

Gandalf
06-22-2004, 08:13 PM
1) Remember my response to why I stopped your goading

2) ME post in political!??!?!

3) See here (link to his public defense)

4sigma
06-22-2004, 08:17 PM
Avi fired off a couple of PMs to me upon being nominated:
The first one is in response to the "reason #4" to vote for him. I don't agree with his logic here, but this is the reason he gave for the post he made that was considered suspicious:
From: Avi
To: Gandalf
Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: EC
Gandalf wrote:
By the way, this post
http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=552223&highlight=#552223
by Mr. P announced that you would be away for the religious holiday I won't try to spell. I told him that unless you asked him to post it, which I doubted, then you probably didn't want him to, and that he was inappropriately interfering with the game. So he edited the info away, after it being public for 28 minutes. I am aware of at least one player, whom I won't name, who saw it. He (or she) mentioned in a PM to me that Mr. P had said you were away. He didn't seem to attach any importance to it, and did not seem to be aware that Mr. P had edited the info away. The PM was sent to me well after the edit.

On the one hand, it seems ECish (or maybe Slayerish) that you would have had any reason to tell Mr. P you would be away; on the other hand it seems really unlikely he would have announced it if you had any special status in the game.

Speaking of ECish, which is more ECish: taunting EC1 and EC2, or publicly reminding them that it is in their best interest to keep quiet?


Thanks for the info. Unless you are extrememly devious, you would have had no reason to tell me this if you were EC.

As for your second point; it is my opinion that unless the EC is comprised of yourself, Cho Da, myself, 4 sigma, or a few others - they will not be able to control themselves after reading what I wrote. Just think of Jables last time - he would take it as an INSULT if someone suggested that the students may be able to outwit him from his banter. I proffer that my jibe may be even more revealing than yours - unless we are dealing with an EC at either extreme of the sophistication level. Very naïeve, they might actually take my advice. Very sophisticated, they might see through it. Somehow, I don't think the egos here will be able to control themselves for the latter, and resign themselves to being thought the former.

His second PM was a link to his post in the thread where he asks if Butters is out of his mind.

I think we stay the course, and let the students decide whether to hit Avi or Werewolf. It may be worthwhile to comment on his defense to reason #4.

Sunny
06-22-2004, 08:26 PM
What if the EC is neither? I'd say Will Durant and Mulan sound more likely EC than Avi. Why would he be so defensive? Would an EC do that? Somehow I don't think so.

But in any case, I don't think there is any other option other than staying the course, no?

Leela
06-22-2004, 08:39 PM
If the ghosts feel I'm the most likely candidate, fine. As I said, this isn't Survivor.

But you are WASTING your opportunity!

1) The political reason is the biggest load of garbage, and y'all know that. Last I checked 27/5531 is NOT considered active :shake:

2) Fit a posting pattern? On what grounds do you say that? What are the similarities and how do they apply?

3) The B³ issue? Sheesh, if we let the EC, evem dead ones, dictate who we lynch, who do you think will win?!?!

4) I sent a reason for my response to Gandalf, which I then copied to 4sigma. In a nutshell, I thought that EC would be MORE insulted and thus goaded by what I wrote than by what Gandalf wrote.

If Political is your primary reason, look to Kaput Shakur, as I've always said, which is an alter-pseudonym expressly created by an RFer for Political!!!

Sunny
06-22-2004, 11:43 PM
I will be posting the following publicly.

If the ghosts feel I'm the most likely candidate, fine. As I said, this isn't Survivor.

But y'all will be WASTING your opportunity voting for me.

1) The political reason is the biggest load of garbage, and y'all know that. Last I checked 27/5531 is NOT considered active :shake:

2) Fit a posting pattern? On what grounds?

3) The B³ issue? Sheesh, if we let the EC, even dead ones, dictate who we lynch, who do you think will win?!?!

4) I sent a reason for my response to Gandalf, which I then copied to 4sigma. In a nutshell, I thought that EC would be MORE insulted and thus goaded by what I wrote than by what Gandalf wrote.

Against my better judgement, I'll have to go public with some observations.

If anything, the use of BWAAHAAHA here http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=30397&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;sta rt=98 excludes myself, and would point to

Cannonball:

http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=552323&amp;highlight=bwa#552323

http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=522232&amp;highlight=bwa#522232

http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=235233&amp;highlight=bwa#235233

Urysohn:

http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=511161&amp;highlight=bwa#511161

http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=484413&amp;highlight=bwa#484413

The only ones who have used it more than once.

This, combined with the Cannonballian witless prattle comment, makes me strongly belive that CannnonBall has an alterego in this thread.

I know that EC1 was witless, but I consider that to confuse us, they may have shared the ID's to throw us off the scent.

What id still alive here is obviously NOT the main idea of an RF regular?

Only Jadzia and Kaput, really. (Will = Yoda)

Factoring in political, realize that Kaput Shakur is an alter-pseudonym expressly created by an RFer for Political!!!

I think then the very evidence you quote points more strongly to Kaput than to anyone else.

BTW Kaput has 54/148 posts in political.

Last I checked .3648 &gt; .00488 (about 75 times as great).

And Tree &lt; Lion = Kenya Wins!!

Use your judgement, and use it wisely!!

Sunny
06-23-2004, 11:19 AM
I've caught up on the thread, will post later. I did, however, want to thank you for handling the proxy for me (as it turned out, it didn't matter). Sorry that 4Sigma and the ghosts painted a bullseye on your back as soon as I made the public proxy post. Hope you have a great time in the ghost forum.

Also, while I hadn't intended the vote to be shown prematurely, given the way events unfolded you handled things just fine, as far as I'm concerned.

Hey hey, actually, it wasn't the student lynching that killed me, it's the EC that murdered me. Is that what you meant with the bolded words?

Yes... this post 10 minutes after I publicly posted the proxy, to be precise... (bold added)

Since proxies are becoming popular, I think a word on these is in order.

If you're going to just be gone a day or two, it is probably a good idea to assign a proxy for that day or two. We have enough players right now that this is not crucial, but as we get further into the game, a single missing student becomes a larger percentage of the number required to lynch. It's probably a good idea to make clear in your proxy the exact time that it begins and ends, just so there is no confusion.

If you're going to be gone for any significant length of time, assigning a proxy makes that person an EC target, since EC can take out 2 votes with one hit. The way to counter this would be to assign some sort of "contingent" proxy so that if your first proxy dies, you have a second proxy named. For example, I will be gone from June 23 to July 7th. I assign my proxy to the earliest person on the following list that is alive at the time of voting: 1) jadzia 2) Butters 3) Kaput Shakur 4) BC

Not only does this guarantee that your vote will be cast as long as you are alive, but it reduces the incentive for EC to hit your first proxy. (Unless they are your 2nd proxy, which is perhaps a bit obvious....)

The concern about "2 votes with one hit" had actually occurred to me; I figured you couldn't be the slayer since the ghosts had already offered your head on a platter twice (although with Cho Da I suppose it didn't really count), so at least I wouldn't be attracting the attention of the EC to the slayer. This is also why I tried to do it via PM (I forgot that we couldn't, as you and Mr. Penguin were both kind enough to remind me). And (as it turns out, although I admit it wasn't a concsious decision) I even left you an "out" if you were the slayer and feared I might be EC, but not asking your permission until you (might have) already have left for the weekend, since leaving work early on a Friday can hardly be construed as suspicious behavior :wink:

Anyway, while I realize your last PM was completely harmless (so I don't feel compelled to share it al a Gandalf and Karma Police) it technically was "game-related" and I suggest we should avoid any appearance of impropriety from here on.

I'll keep in touch with you - usually I just PM 4Sigma, but I'll try to include you in what little help I'm able to send to the ghost forum from here on. Have fun in the ghost forum, and have a GREAT time in Egypt.

DEATH TO THE EC!!!

Hi BC. That's fine. What I have said is not really relating to the game strategy, just stating a fact/asking for clarification. :)

Agreed. Even I don't pick nits THAT finely :)

Sunny
06-23-2004, 04:03 PM
nm

Gandalf
06-24-2004, 11:46 AM
Gandalf,

I've not yet sent any PMs to the GC before, and have questioned its utility as well. However, I'd like you to seriously consider EK as a target for lynching next. I haven't been able to follow his "logic" at all, and he has seemed to throw enough chaos into the mix to make sure that the students vote for students. The way he's acting, if the students look like they are getting close to voting for someone he thinks may be EC, he stirs the pot and directs traffic elsewhere. I realize he may have his own aims in this game, but if some of those are killing the students, we should get rid of him.

Kaput Shakur

Sunny
06-24-2004, 12:56 PM
Identical PMs sent to 4Sigma and Sunny:

I was thinking last night, and I realized that 24/31 and 7/31 are probably NOT the correct probabilities...

Consider the original pool:

31 "pawn" students
1 slayer
1 sleeper
2 EC.

The sleeper is mixed in with the pawns, for a pool of 32. The EC removed four of the pawns, leaving 1 sleeper in a pool of 28. PRIOR to the the first EC death (cubedbee), 7 students were removed from this pool either by lynching or slaying.

Hence, I believe the probability that a sleeper was killed before being awakened is 7/28, not 7/31 as was previously stated. This is a difference of about 2.42%.

I have to add one thing, sorry I can't really substantiate this, but somehow I'm beginning to suspect BC. Not sure why, though. Sorry I can't tell you really. Other than how he's analyzed my death and pm'd me a bit after he came back from his short "vacation". And it just seems to me his pm now is just trying to earn brownie points with the ghosts. I would study his track history etc and not rule him out for lynching next round.

I will be out beginning tomorrow, won't really be here much, if at all, at least for the next month or three weeks.

DEATH TO THE EC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

Gandalf
06-24-2004, 01:07 PM
FWIW, his revised probabilities are not right either. I don't think we care much about the exact probability.

Gandalf
06-24-2004, 02:02 PM
JT - innocent student - not slayer
I can understand how he would know the victim, but not how he would know she is not the slayer.

edited to add: :duh: Now I see from the public thread why he and Mulan (see next post) submitted guesses. Should they go in a separate thread.

Gandalf
06-24-2004, 02:05 PM
I think the EC will execute Macroman, no particular reasoning.

I've actually been too busy to analyze anything, so I'm sure I'm missing clues I should be guessing.

I hope this little game catches some EC, but I suspect that they are too smart to send their actual pick.
(Some non-game content was deleted.) At least she admits no particular reasoning, such as no inside knowledge.

Leela
06-25-2004, 11:01 AM
Because of my belief that Will is guilty, his defense of EK is suspicious to me. Especially since Will does not put up with such arguments in Political.

I think Will and EK are the EC.

I'm sending this to EC_Slayer too.

Mu

Gandalf
06-25-2004, 01:15 PM
"Modified plan which will be used this round: Exactly EK's, until 6 PM Saturday. We could hit EK (or Traina) at this moment and they are gone. If we wait, we may not get another chance at them this round. "

You do realise when you say things like this, all you're doing is narrowing down the field for the EC to hit the Slayer. Cause obviously you're implying that neither EK nor I are the Slayer.
Her logic is wrong. If anything targets we let go by are more likely to be the slayer. She was probably just influenced by the fact she knew she was not the slayer, rather than ECish hoping to get a clue about whether EK was by my agreeing or disagreeing (in a cryptic public response).

Sunny
06-25-2004, 01:27 PM
I think I've mentioned this elsewhere before. I think Traina is not EC.

Gandalf
06-26-2004, 10:32 PM
I'm having serious doubts about All Clear. If he should post a confession about something, then I recommend Traina, though I doubt he will so I recommend Jables.
Very strange. Should he be so confident we will not lynch him? :) I am not say that it suggests he is EC, and I do not propose lynching him.

We also have no idea what EK's interaction with All Clear is, and what it would have to do with Traina. One of you can ask in the public thread if you want to try.

I am more in favor of lynching Jables than Traina, since he was active when EC2 opened my PM. He would have hated to refrain from posting to establish his "no access" alibi, but he could have done it.

Traina's PM two above, while I disagree with her logic, is a mild suggestion to me that she is innocent.

I may not be on line at all Sunday, so whichever of those two the rest of you pick is OK. Lynch EK only over my dead body. Oops, it already is. In any case, I am not in favor of lynching EK.

Leela
06-28-2004, 12:49 PM
(Now to Leela because 4Sigma isn't picking up.)
To siggy-siggy-siggy-siggy and the EC_Slayer,

I will vote before the deadline if needed but I’m going to lay low for a while if I have the willpower. I’ll continue to PM but I figure the only unexpected public thing I can do at the moment is nothing at all.

Did you know there are more chess players left now, than those who don’t play chess at the Rebel Outpost? Funny, huh? One might think a good question would be to ask the main chess organizer if he has noticed anything unusual about these participants. The thing is that I already know his opinion on this matter from much earlier in the game by way of PM.

I believe you should both be aware that I think Anonymouse is not EC2, but I don’t believe I’ve given either of you the reason. Don’t hold your breath on that. It is now important, however, that you realize that both Anonymouse and I are the approximate skill level and would commonly be known as second tier players, which is exceptionally good if I do admit but not among the elite like RedSoxFan. The others once thought elite chess players in our EC game are All Clear and Macroman.

Why is this important? I am biased toward Anonymouse. It is not the specific reason I was able to obtain and believe the convincing evidence that he is not EC2, but without my bias I would not care enough to pursue the original line of discussion with Anonymouse.

This past round I was asking questions in the effort to promote discussion. As I have indicated, I already knew RedSoxFan’s thoughts on the posting patterns of chess players. (He thinks Will Durant is posting unusually, which I was eager to read before cubedbee’s death but now that I no longer believe Will is EC, I wonder if RedSoxFan would like to alter that opinion.) To prompt others into asking questions, I fed All Clear (who was online ALL AFTERNOON Friday) this question. He agreed he thought it was a good question and told me he would ask it NEXT ROUND. Huh? I’m sorry but I didn’t want to have RedSoxFan think about the answer for days. I pressed in two more PMs, but All Clear refused. I posted the online status material and All Clear dropped his online status almost immediately. I asked RedSoxFan the question with just a few minutes of his last post and he has yet to answer it despite multiple visits back to the Games section (and I believe he was online at the time I asked obviously).

Now Gandalf prompts the students on Saturday the Traina, Jables, and I are official candidates and we can add to the list. I roll my vote to All Clear and PM Macroman to do the same. I indicate to him that he can make it plain to everyone that he would prefer my lynching but would like to offer another candidate to the GC. (I also indicate to Gandalf that I no longer trust All Clear and suggest not lynching Traina - All Clear’s candidate.) Now Macroman respects what Gandalf suggests but he REFUSED in a PM to change his vote to All Clear.

I don’t trust the Macroman-All Clear-RedSoxFan trio. Slay the guy in the middle!

4sigma
06-28-2004, 06:59 PM
EK has been remarkably communicative lately. This was sent to me about an hour ago.The underground is already discussing whom we will lynch next time. I would like a concise voting guide for next round. There exists confusion whether voting in red is meaningful. Please, please, please, make this a very short post such that I can quote it with every voting summary. Even better, prepare a guide with as much detail as you like and then in the same post summarize it to under 25 words. I’ll quote the summary and link it back to the details.

Take advantage of this time that I am not posting.

Gandalf
06-30-2004, 12:29 PM
I sent the slayer some tidbit of information that I thought would be of interest to him/her. I also notified the slayer that I was not sending this to the ghosts. If the slayer decides that the information needs to be sent, I will let that person do that.

OTOH, I will check at lunch to see if the slayer has received my PM. If that has not happened, I will forward it to you.

The EC is hunting for the slayer. The ghosts need to be quite cautious with what information they reveal. Because the EC is (IMO) not trying to hide the strategy, I suspect that there is no sleeper, but I could be wrong.
I don't see why she suspects there is no sleeper.

Gandalf
06-30-2004, 12:46 PM
In response to my posting JT's PM above,Conditional probability?
I asked for clarification.I am just saying that the likelihood of us having not hit an EC at this point significantly favors the theory that there is one EC.

For this reason, I would suggest focusing on finding EC2.

I cannot read JT's mind, but I suspect this may have been his thought process. Of course, he could be the sleeper.

For whom the gain?

Avi
06-30-2004, 01:35 PM
Note: I believe JT is a she.

Mulan
06-30-2004, 01:42 PM
posted in wrong place - I've moved post.

4sigma
06-30-2004, 07:14 PM
Following are some posts that BC sent me while his game model was under development. Note that BC and I are friends IRL.

These two PMs were the last ones he sent me on Friday before I was killed by EC:

You wanted something abbreviated and general. I have censored words like "strategy" (I didn't even mention the students' possible options) and left out one of the most significant potential aspects (that Gandalf pointed out to me) that might actually make it useful to EC. I have also "dolled it up" in mathematical lingo and disclaimers to make it mostly useless to anyone without both significant mathematical skills to completely understand it AND computational skills to implement it. I would like to disseminate SOMETHING today to those to whom I promised it, if for no other reason than to avoid looking any more suspicious than I already do; however, I will not send it out without your approval, since you feel so strongly. Please feel free to add any suggestions/censorship that you think will benefit the students. [technical details about the model deleted]

No problem. I've sent a revised copy that includes "suspicion" parameters.

I think I was overly enthusiastic about the model because subconsciously I think I'm (correctly) perceived, even online, as a bit of a numbers nerd, and wanted to "prove" that that could be useful. Since I've recognized that silly desire for affirmation, I'm not as concerned. However, I do appreciate your review of the "script", and I'll PM it to people who I have PMed and would like to see it, and post an "if anyone is interested, let me post it or PM it to you". The actual workings will still be between you and me (and Gandalf, if he decides he's interested again) for now.

These were sent on Monday after I was dead:

Monday 6:42 a.m. Central: I find it suspicious that Gandalf backed out of the peer review process so late and then suddenly you get whacked. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but I think someone thought splintering our little group of three was the best way to keep any results from being used...

A part of me hopes to join the ghosts soon so we can finish this work. I think it's an interesting problem, but that we haven't gotten quite as deep as we need to.

8:31 a.m.I may ask to be lynched so we can continue our collaboration. I haven't decided whether I think that would be the best course of action, but I wanted to let you know I was considering it.


11:45 a.m.Okay, I've thought about it, thought about a death scene, and decided I'll volunteer. If (and only if) you and the ghosts think I would be a useful member of the ghost forum, and that the model we've been working on will be useful and will advance significantly more quickly with the two of us working together, then please feel free to recommend me for lynching/slaying (of course, also if you think I'm EC or the sleeper - but it goes without saying that I am not. Except that I said it... ). I will not try to start a bandwagon on my own (I have a few people whom I could probably convince to vote for me without the ghosts' blessing, and could probably start an avalanche that way if I wanted to) but will leave the decision and my "life" in the capable hands of y'all.

Sorry to see you go, but great death scene! Actually, mine also starts at the office... I hope it doesn't look like too much of a ripoff, although I came up with the concept independently...

In this interval I made a public post 4) To those with whom I was engaged in technical discussions -- I obviously am not able to continue these via PM. I have not been able to review the recent work or contribute much lately, due to helping organize the ghost forum. I do intend to comment publicly in the future, in a way that will not compromise strategic concerns.

BC responded with a PM

12:53 p.m.Yeah, as soon as I saw the death scene I understood the earlier PM, which is why I suggested me "dying" so we could get back together on this. I understand that you are otherwise occupied for the moment, however. Good luck with the ghost forum, whether I join you soon or not.

Gandalf
06-30-2004, 11:34 PM
For the record, EK sent me a PM with his interpretation of why RedSoxFan voted for BC against the GC's wishes. Since we aren't nominating RSF this round in any case, and I disagree that it was against our wishes for RSF to vote BC (EK thought at the time it was piling on), I'm not printing it. When I asked him for clarification, he said it wasn't important anyway.

He seems to think RSF voted for BC by default, as otherwise he would have to vote against his chess friends (All Clear and Macroman). Excerpt from the clarifying PM. I believe his hands were tied on that vote. He didn't want to hit his chess friends, so he went against the ghosts knowingly.

Mulan
07-01-2004, 03:34 PM
Thought I'd post all of BC's PMs to me...

On June 18 AFTER Cubedbee's death

Identical PM sent to others...

I had a thought - we should leave Avi alone for this round. If the ghosts give us two choices, we should probably take the other one. If the EC decides to leave him alone, that only makes him more likely to be EC, and we can get him next round; if the EC kills him, then we have at least not done their work for them.

I realize something like this is already in the forum, I thought of it myself last night and wanted to pass it on privately.

On June 9 (before Cubedbee's death)

I kind of liked Gandalf's suggestion of something alternating rounds, the students choose with minimal ghost input, alternating rounds the ghosts choose. I think it would be more fun for the students without necessarily hurting the students' chances of winning very much. Perhaps even completely detach the slayer (while there are two original EC left), since while the students' lynching of a slayer would be a "wasted" turn, at least the slayer would be replaced so it wouldn't be THAT big of a deal.

I get the feeling that this game is evolving, so I if it is played again, I imagine that there will be additional twists/quirks that might limit the ghosts' power.

In the Looney Labs variation ("Werewolf" or some similar name, you can find Looney Labs on the web easily enough) I don't think the ghosts are allowed to communicate at all. Which stinks if you're the first one out, since you get to sit at a party all night and say nothing. I believe the pendulum has probably swung a bit too far in the other direction (fun-wise; strategy-wise, I'll be a sheep unless I have a good reason not to, and EK can go soak his/her head as far as I'm concerned ).

I don't know what it says about me (or the game) that I find the mathematical model and the potential structure and implications of rule changes more interesting than the game itself...


June 8:
Identical PM sent to Mulan and Kenshiro:

I was advised to keep silent on certain issues of strategy in order to keep EC from thinking about it. I think that was good advice. This is why you haven't seen more details about my model, which as you may have noticed, I was practially bursting to share. The ghosts have all that I have on it (actually, probably more by now - it is hopefully enhanced by some of their work). I suggest that certain recent posts you have made may have suggested ideas to the EC that they (at least EC1 ) would not have come up with on their own.


June 8:
It would seem that you're rapidly becoming the victim of the "Sunny effect" where an early questionable post is becoming the narrow focus of a few. My condolences. I've been asked to join a bandwagon against you, but unless the ghosts finger you, that won't happen (at least, not yet).

Some about the mathematical models from Jun 2-7.

On May 28 and June 1: we were going back and forth about whether to start a bandwagon to kill Will and also the former ID of Leela, since it seemed to us that she'd played before.

That's all, none on May 29 - 31.

Jables
07-01-2004, 09:12 PM
Sorry for the delay, but my small collection of PM's are undoubtedly good for more of a laugh than any strategy...

May 14th:

Hey, I was thinking of a Red Sox fan alliance for the upcoming EC game. Just a way to help keep each other out of trouble. Would you be interested?

Hagbard Celine is the only other Sox fan I know that has entered in the game so far. I know Jonas Grumby, Pseudolous, and Patience (and probably some others as well) are fans but aren't in the game.

Yeah, I would go along with that... but we also won't know for a few more days at least if any of us are EC or slayer (or any of Penguin's surprises)... are you proposing that if one of us becomes EC/slayer/etc we refuse to kill other Sox fans? Or is this alliance purely among the students? Just wondering, who knows what people will be picked for those roles...

Here's my idea. If one of us becomes EC, the others do what they can to protect the EC member, to help him win. But the other component is that to one of the members of the Red Sox fan alliance, the EC member reveals the name of the other EC member, so that he can win the stapler on the Orange vote if the EC loses. So basically, we guarantee one of our own wins the stapler.

The more people we get in the alliance, the greater chances we have of having someone on the EC. On the other hand, if we invite people to the alliance that we can't trust, they might mess it up intentionally.

If none of us get on the EC, I guess we'll just avoid voting for each other, but it's not as big a deal since if you're a student your only way of actually winning the stapler is getting the Orange vote correct.

I dunno, I guess I'm biased since I only played the game once, as EC, and since I got eliminated early I wasn't in the running for the stapler, so my primary focus was on the EC winning. I guess I care more about the group I'm a part of winning the overall game than about winning a stapler. I don't think we even know if there's a stapler up for grabs yet, do we?

So are you in? There is a stapler, and if one of us is on the EC, then it is almost guaranteed one of us will win it. We should probably agree to this before Mr. P determines who everyone is.

RSF

I don't have any problem with the strategy itself, but I'm not sure exactly how I plan to play the game yet. I'm sure it will come down to whether I'm a or student or not. No hard feelings, but I'm going to go at it on my own with this one...

Jables


June 2:

EC1 changed his avatar to a rainbow flag. Not to suggest you are gay, but you are one of the most image-oriented posters in the game.

If not you, which players would have been most likely to change that avatar?

Feel free to pass along your thoughts to Slayer and Ghosts, which need not even be the same way you respond to me. Though you do risk my forwarding the ghosts anything you send, which could give them the idea that one of us is lying.

I don't know, is Loner playing the game under a pseudonym? :lol:
There are a few players (both you and I included), that have gone through a number of avatars, but nobody who seems to have been avatar trigger happy lately.

If I were to suspect anybody for that reason alone it would be Will Durant/Yoda for the name and avatar change directly before the game started...

I don't think Will. Possibly Maine-iac or Cho Da. Nothing worth going to the ghosts with yet. It really ought to be you, but I don't think you would have been as quiet as EC1 and EC2 have been.

I can assure you that I'm nothing but an innocent student this go around... totally different perspective on things...

June 9-11:

Who is it? Not 42 is it?

It's just me ****in' around... sorry to disappoint :)

Bastard mother****er.

:swear:

I assumed that since we won't know if the sleeper is activated, you didn't plan on having an EC3 ID for anyone to use, hehe...

You're just an EC wannabe....

Jables = very first EC member lynched.

Ouch. Very ouch... :oops:

:lol:

Oh, and I forgot to add EVER

Yeah, pretty much nobody had anything worth PM-ing me about... :D

Gandalf
07-05-2004, 09:03 AM
I pondered whether or not this would really help you... I let you judge !

just in case I would be the one you consider ECish. I trust 4sigma put my infos on the Ghost Forum (about me having courses since the june the 20th). You can add study for Exam 5 to my Intensive English course and my math course.

You can if you want, make a search on my name. You will find that my posts dropped everywhere, not just in this thread, and that I post only early in the morning or at night during the week.

It's not that I would mind join you guys, but just that a lost round is helping a little too much the EC for my taste !!!

Mulan
07-06-2004, 11:35 AM
Here is Karma's advice regarding Will Durant:

I think it's time for the slayer to take him out. This is one of the two guys I suggested to the EC to kill. We need to play it safe and axe him.

Mulan
07-06-2004, 11:51 AM
Here is more of Karma's advice:

I think that from this point on, the Slayer should choose who is to be lynched openly in the thread. This is a far better solution than having the students pass.

Mulan
07-06-2004, 04:20 PM
More from Karma

From the time when we have 6 players left, I have worked out an end-game strategy that maximizes victory, assuming the Slayer still lives.

6 left: Slayer takes 2 shots - 1 by directing students.

5 left: Slayer takes 1 shot

Reasoning: We want the EC to have four players left on his turn. He will have a 1/3 chance at hitting the slayer. If he does, we have a 1/3 chance of hitting him back. This is a 1/9 chance of victory. If he misses the slayer (2/3), we automatically win as the Slayer calls the next two shots. So, if it is the ECs turn and there are 4 players left, we have 7/9 chance of winning (assuming the EC doesn't pass). If he does pass, at least we have earned ourselves an extra two shots.

4sigma
07-06-2004, 07:52 PM
Some notes from All Clear. He sent this a bit ago but I didn't get it posted until now. You can ignore his comments about Kaput and Macroman at this point.I got a few pm's from people that I wanted to share with you guys. These are not all of them, but many others are just a line or two, including stuff that Gandalf has sent me and can fill you in on (I think you can share information from private messages from when you were still alive, right?)



All Clear wrote:
I don't think you are EC, so after suggesting you once already, I didn't see it necessary to keep bringing your name up. When I saw you had suggested my name, though, I did a search of your posts in the EC thread, and saw that my name was brought up by you a total of three times, with only that one reason given. I guess when I wrote "people" I was just talking about me... Since you brought me up with such (what I thought to be) weak logic, I brought you up, since I still wonder that it may have been to deflect attention away from yourself, being EC. Still, while I think you are probably slightly more likely than average to be EC (and among my top choices), I still think it is far, far more likely that you are a student, so at this early point when I don't know enough of what is going on, I would prefer not to keep mentioning your name in the thread, which may convince others to vote for you. I'll let the ghosts decide at this point, I guess.


I hope that you don't take it personally.

You may be suspicious of me from last game as well. I sent you a PM to make sure that you were still following the game. I did that so that we wouldn't risk missing a lynching by not having enough votes. I sent the same PM to a couple other players as well.

I've been sending all of my thoughts that I think merit serious consideration to the ghosts, since I still think that using the ghost forum is a very good idea. I can only say that some players may be surprised by some of the things that I sent to the ghosts when the ghost forum is made public.

The suggestions that I'm posting in the main thread are primarily to give the ghosts more options. Also, it gets some of the other players to think about names that don't come up that often.

I think that we can both agree that my posting pattern in the main thread would not allow me to deflect attention very easily. I'm one of the higher profile players in the main thread, so I know that I'm going to be considered regularly for lynching. And, frankly, that's OK with me.

I want to point out his last paragraph, where he mentioned that it is hard for him to deflect attention very easily. I could not agree more, and think that is a strong reason why a ghost mentioned that he was being talked about right after the EC killed him. It is why I keep reccomending Traina, RSF, and also support killing people like JT, UA, Kaput, and Macroman. These people's posting pattern does not lead to often being consdiered for lynching (they don't say much as would have been expected, so there is nothing to fight them on or lynch them for), so I would like the ghosts to consider them more.

I don't know if Ebenezer Kohl did this to everyone, but he asked me on Friday if I could ask RSF publicly if other chess players have been acting oddly in terms of posting habits, on the EC thread. I declined, having just posted a few hours before, and he then told me it was a trick question. I don't know if he is trying to fool me into doing something, but it didn't matter. I wasn't planning on posting until the weekend (unless something important came up and my vote is needed for something), and he had already asked RSF by that time. I don't if this sounds odd to you, but it did to me. I don't understand what the "trick" part of it is, but I guess it already happend.

Anyway, thats what I think. Again, feel free to give me any name you want to be voted for. I see no need for it to be among the top 3 or something. Thanks for hearing me out.
-All Clear

Kaput Shakur
07-07-2004, 10:08 AM
From Karma Police:

I would like to strongly suggest to the Slayer that he take out Will Durant.

Gandalf
07-07-2004, 11:05 AM
I suggested these two to the Slayer and requested that they be passed to the ghost committee. If I had a ranking, All Clear would be #1 or #2 and Asynchronous would be #3. Gather what you want and pass this along to the ghost committee.
I asked for clarification in the public thread, as it appears someone else must be #2 or #1, so why make Asynchronous the second choice?

I have no idea what I was supposed to gather.

ahow
07-07-2004, 11:07 AM
I suggested these two to the Slayer and requested that they be passed to the ghost committee. If I had a ranking, All Clear would be #1 or #2 and Asynchronous would be #3. Gather what you want and pass this along to the ghost committee.
I asked for clarification in the public thread, as it appears someone else must be #2 or #1, so why make Asynchronous the second choice?

I have no idea what I was supposed to gather.Perhaps you were supposed to gather that he slotting himself in at #1...

Gandalf
07-07-2004, 12:08 PM
I think there is a big gap between killing #3 and #4. I would much rather lynch All Clear. I don't think I could lynch Asynchronous so it make sense to me to have the Slayer do it for me.

Why Asynchronous?
If an innocent student, he was not onto BC before the stapler voting. Further he didn't vote or suggest anyone in the window where I assume the sleeper was most busy with rules. Also, his suggestion of BC seems very weak because I agree with Anonymouse that Asynchronous fits the mold much more than BC.

I think he informed the ghosts about Paranoia before he knew he was the sleeper, but that is just a hunch. The ghost committee should pinpoint that information time.

1-2 All Clear - RSF
3 Asynchronous

You should look for a lack of information from Sunny corresponding to RSF at the ghost forum. I am certain Sunny is protecting RSF.
It's not totally irrational. I even had a little concern on my own about Asynch's public post about Paranoia. Assuming (hypothetically) that Asynch / BC were both EC, it would have been an excellent tactic for having at least one make it all the way.

That said, I'm still glad that the slayer is not hitting either All Clear or Asynch, and think we should continue to protect Asynch for now. All Clear we should probably protect, but there are some combinations of student suggestions that would make him the best hit.

4sigma
07-07-2004, 12:19 PM
Why Asynchronous?
If an innocent student, he was not onto BC before the stapler voting. Further he didn't vote or suggest anyone in the window where I assume the sleeper was most busy with rules. Also, his suggestion of BC seems very weak because I agree with Anonymouse that Asynchronous fits the mold much more than BC.

I think he informed the ghosts about Paranoia before he knew he was the sleeper, but that is just a hunch. The ghost committee should pinpoint that information time.


For the record, Asynch suggested the paranoia connection to me all the way back in Round 2. The full history of this is available in the EC2 profile thread.

Gandalf
07-07-2004, 12:35 PM
Yes, he suggested it to us long before, which in a way makes it suspicious that he chose to post it publicly at all.

The Asynch = EC theory (and Asynch is still near the bottom of my list) would require Asynch = sleeper; BC = EC2. EC2 gains nothing by casting suspicion on an unactivated sleeper, since if we lynch the sleeper we don't know he was, so EC2's credibility does not improve.

However, once there is an activated sleeper, it could make a lot of sense for one of the two EC to be instrumental in lynching the other.

4sigma
07-07-2004, 05:22 PM
Will Durant comments upon the merits of passing vs. lynching. He has the concept but his math isn't quite right, I think.
The idea of not lynching this round is intriguing. It guarantees us not to accidentally lynch the slayer, and prevents EC from gleaning any possible information about the slayer's identity.

However, assuming random hits, doesn't it decrease our probability of winning? By my math (unless I am missing something) . . .
P(Slayer hits EC this round) = 1/6 - WIN
P(EC hits Slayer next round) = 1/6
P(Slayer hits EC next round) = 1/6 - WIN
P(EC hits Slayer round after next) = 1/6
P(Arriving at guaranteed win scenario) = 1/3 - WIN

I don't have time to calculate the exact odds of the students winning in scenarios 2 and 4. If we estimate it at 50%, then the students have an 83% chance of winning by skipping a lynching this round.

Question: I haven't been following all the discussion carefully but didn't the last number thrown out give us a larger probability of winning than this?

Avi
07-07-2004, 05:58 PM
Will Durant comments upon the merits of passing vs. lynching. He has the concept but his math isn't quite right, I think.
The idea of not lynching this round is intriguing. It guarantees us not to accidentally lynch the slayer, and prevents EC from gleaning any possible information about the slayer's identity.

However, assuming random hits, doesn't it decrease our probability of winning? By my math (unless I am missing something) . . .
P(Slayer hits EC this round) = 1/6 - WIN
P(EC hits Slayer next round) = 1/6
P(Slayer hits EC next round) = 1/6 - WIN
P(EC hits Slayer round after next) = 1/6
P(Arriving at guaranteed win scenario) = 1/3 - WIN

I don't have time to calculate the exact odds of the students winning in scenarios 2 and 4. If we estimate it at 50%, then the students have an 83% chance of winning by skipping a lynching this round.

Question: I haven't been following all the discussion carefully but didn't the last number thrown out give us a larger probability of winning than this?

http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=31929&start=100

4sigma
07-08-2004, 04:41 AM
4sigma (with copy to EC_Slayer):

I've posted my nomination of Will Durant, and wanted to pass on the more concrete reasons for my suspicions in private.

In this (http://www.actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=589592#589592) post, Will says the following:

Will Durant, you must have missed the part where we vote. Don’t make me drop a hot potato on you!
I didn't have strong ideas one way or the other. Wanted to think about this Paranoia idea a bit longer.

Asynch's analysis seems sound. Per his suggestion, we should consider BC. But since his other suggestion hasn't gotten any votes yet, let's see...

Vote: Macroman

I don't take CubedBee's suggestion of EK seriously, BUT . . . you did mention "Paranoia." Perhaps CubedBee was trying to deflect attention AWAY from you after you mentioned Paranoia? Despite your protestations that you've never heard of this game, I think EK needs serious consideration as well.

Will may have been making an attempt to steer the bandwagon towards (innocent) Macroman rather than (guilty) BC. He also seems just a little too... circumspect? about the whole Paranoia idea, as if it were an issue he didn't really want to get close to, but needed to address before it got out of hand.

He certainly was no longer circumspect in this (http://www.actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=595067#595067) post:

&lt;&lt;The "EC has played Paranoia" theory?&gt;&gt;

I think Avi's analysis was spot on. :tup: This led us to BC, who I am sure has played the game (since he said he hasn't, and when have the EC ever said the truth). Are you suggesting that we should be continuing to follow up this line of reasoning?

In addition, I would hope that my post, which offered up BC to you and led to his demise, would further establish my innocence. (If I were EC, it would have made more sense to target Macroman rather than BC, assuming I were even foolish enough to go public with the whole Paranoia issue at that point. Note that in the first post, he correctly attributed the Paranoia theory to me, then attributes it to Avi in the other. Avi corrected him in public, so he probably should be aware that I was a big contributor to BC's demise. Therefore, it is curious that Will is now voting for me.


Also, I really don't know what to do with EK. At this point, I tend to believe that he is either the Slayer or the Sleeper/EC2. We offered him up along with Traina and Jables, and the ghosts picked Jables with much disdain. This shows that the ghosts quite strongly believed him innocent (no matter how unconvinced the students remain). Therefore, the EC should have suspected him as either Slayer or known innocent and killed him. The fact that they haven't, may be because he is an EC or there is an EC belief that the students won't trust him in the endgame (but the ghosts have passed on their chances to kill him, so this seems flawed). Perhaps they hope that we will still waste one of our last strikes on him rather than an EC. If for some reason you want him nominated, send me a signal, but again, I don't think nomination is necessary as I think the ghosts should have absolute leeway at this stage, though I would prefer they include rationale with their suggestions to the greatest extent possible.

Gandalf
07-09-2004, 01:35 PM
I thought it was a done deal that RSF was our next choice. Here is a message EK sent me around 7PM eastern time July 8 (I had asked him in the public thread if he had more thoughts about a person he referred to in certain earlier PMs; he could be sure I was asking about RSF):

No, of course not, but why does it matter now?!

Here is what I was about to post when I saw the madness that Mulan posted.
Votes for Gandalf

BC Fri 1:02
Sunny Fri 1:05
RedSoxFan Fri 1:29
cubedbee Fri 1:45
Avi Fri 1:50
Ebenezer Kohl Fri 1:54
Asynchronous Fri 2:02
Mulan Fri 2:05
Cho Da Fri 2:17
Traina Fri 2:35
Ultimate Anyone Fri 2:42
Butters Fri 3:30
Sunny and RedSoxFan are in cahoots. Sunny and cubedbee were in cahoots. (Sunny and I were in cahoots but let’s overlook that, shall we?) I know RedSoxFan exchanges PMs with Sunny often, however she never mentioned exchanging PMs with RedSoxFan IN THIS GAME WHICH IS ABSURD and she was telling me about tons of others PMing her and was quoting those PMs when I wasn’t even asking to see them. I was swinging with cubedbee entirely through Sunny. Look at the swing you received. BC, Sunny, RedSoxFan, and Avi (let’s overlook me again, okay). RedSoxFan is right there in the mix with the EC crowd, going against the Alliance, and supposedly not PMing Sunny, or at least Sunny refused to give me that indication.

You see that I have questioned RSF about his PMs with Sunny later in this thread. My gut tells me RSF is EC, but I wait because he is in the Alliance. All Clear is also very suspect and IS CLEARLY TRYING TO HELP RSF!!!

And no this is not my final word, this PM is done on the spur of the moment. You know that stapler pick is important to me and I guessed my top suspect.