Survivor: Campfire chatter

[urysohn]

Long days and nights between challenges, with not much to do but chat with your fellow castaways.
Feel free to start your own threads for similar topics, but if you're looking for a place to publicly strategize, trash talk your opponents, flirt with the hotties, discuss who's getting the boot, or just for some plain old campfire talk, then this is your place!

Conversation starters:
- Jables: is his work connection really screwed up or was it just an EC ploy?
- Would work be a better place if you could bring your dog in with you?
- Where would you rather vacation: Atlantis-like city at the bottom of the ocean or a moon-city?

[Jables]

Conversation starters:
- Jables: is his work connection really screwed up or was it just an EC ploy?

Convinced yet? :cry:

[Will Durant]

- Jables: is his work connection really screwed up or was it just an EC ploy?
There is no EC. You conveniently arranged to put us in three different teams. :swear:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Would work be a better place if you could bring your dog in with you?
Absolutely! I have a seven-month old particolor Pekingese who is just the cutest thing. Unlike most Pekingese, he is not barky so he would be fine sitting on my desk watching me type away at my keyboard. His name is Ebenezer!

Is it just me, or is there a dark cloud hanging over Team 3? Team selection, first challenge, second challenge, and now electing a team captain have all been one big cluster fark. At present course, one should expect every member of Team 3 to receive a vote and eliminate the team entirely.

Meanwhile, Team 2 continues to play second fiddle to Channel 4 News. There are a variety of reasons why Channel 4 News dominates this team. Key is membership. I’ve never seen a more conglomerated mess of losers like Team 2. BC is desperate to join an alliance with me and who can blame him? Who else is there to pony up with? Rocky?! :lol: Team 2 is bathroom code fitting for this captainless group.

[the mole]

Is it just me, or is there a dark cloud hanging over Team 3? Team selection, first challenge, second challenge, and now electing a team captain have all been one big cluster fark. At present course, one should expect every member of Team 3 to receive a vote and eliminate the team entirely.
Believe it or not, it is just you. From PMed discussions, they are very aware of this rule:
During phase one, the teams may be periodically evened out, rearranged, or eliminated (i.e. remaining players moved onto other teams). When one team at random started with an extra player, who has been described as a dead-weight anchor (or maybe a lead anchor; I forget), wouldn't it be natural to reassign that player to even teams out? Team 3 players are desperate to bail before that reassignment.

[VernSchil]

The Mole,

Who are you and why are you taking such an interest in this? You should have signed up to play.

[the mole]

If I (primary id) signed up to play, I (the mole) wouldn't be allowed to heckle from the sidelines. Players can only post under one id in the thread.

Sooner or later some of the women players will be voted off, and I will be ready to console them.

[Hagbard Celine]

- Would work be a better place if you could bring your dog in with you?

Absolutely! I have a two year old black Lab who is just the cutest thing. Unlike most labs, she doesn't particularly like strangers, so other people might not like it. It would make me happy though as she would be sitting on the floor watching me type away at my keyboard. Her name is Belle!

At present course, one should expect every member of Team 3 to receive a vote and eliminate the team entirely.

Hey! We're pulling things together now...we just weren't ready. We're the dark horses now, watch your backs.

We're gunning for you, Kohl!

[VernSchil]

Unlike most labs, she doesn't particularly like strangers, so other people might not like it.


Wow, that's nearly impossible. Is she pure bred or mixed with something else? I've been around black labs my entire life and never found one that didn't love all people.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Her name is Belle!
Isn’t that a Disney name? Please tell me Mrs. Celine picked that.
We're gunning for you, Kohl!
Well at least that would show some focus.


1. Channel 4 News won’t lose challenges.
2. I can’t be voted out even if that happened.
3. There won’t be any members of your tribe left at final merge, whenever that is.

[Hagbard Celine]

Wow, that's nearly impossible. Is she pure bred or mixed with something else? I've been around black labs my entire life and never found one that didn't love all people.

Pure bred, from show stock (although Belle was not considered "show quality" so it was limited registration).

We took her to the vet, when she was a puppy still, going through one of her "fear periods." They needed a urine sample, which we had taken but left at home. I left to go get it, but they didn't want to wait. They took her in back and somehow extracted a sample. Whatever they did to her, it was very painful and it scarred her emotionally. Ever since, she is very distrustful of strangers. Give her 15 minutes and she's a rubbery rag doll. You'll never see a sweeter dog around people she knows, and other dogs, but she can be nasty around strangers. :cry:

It was a bad mistake not to make them wait for me to return, one that we'll never let happen again with another dog. And from now on, we'll be with her everytime they do something to her.

And yes, EK, Mrs. Celine picked the name. Lady Liberty Belle. :D

[Hagbard Celine]

Here are 2 pics from when she was 10 weeks. I don't have any recent pics on my work computer.

http://apotheosis.tv/files/dontbotherme.jpg

http://apotheosis.tv/files/Cute10weeks.jpg

[VernSchil]

Wow..she's adorable. Makes me miss my black lab. (she just passed away last month at age 12). When I move out of the city, I'm definitely gonna get a new one. I'd have one now but those dogs need open space and abdundant woods/water to be truly happy.

[Tim><]

I would like to bring this little fellow to work:

http://www.thebigzoo.com/images/animals/Ornithorhynchus_anatinus_001.jpg

[urysohn]

I will not be sharing challenge details until the game is over, but if you're sitting around the campfire tonight and want to rehash some of the details of what happened behind the scenes at today's Marketplace challenge, then I'm sure our viewing audience would enjoy hearing about it. Easier than you thought, tough to get any deals swung, teammate frustration, go public with a "secret" deal. You know, the good stuff. America wants to know!!

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I thought the alliance I had with BC would work to our advantage. We traded all of our numbers immediately. BC worked a trade with cubedbee that left us without one number, M. I thought I could get that from Will but he wasn’t around and I dawdled too long. Cubedbee made the exchange with J.T., made the pass to BC, made the pass to me. Egads!!! The blame falls squarely on my shoulders. I will try and recover tonight for Channel 4 News.

:oops: My bad.

[the mole]

There's not much to tell, really, though Team Fark gets a lot of credit for realizing the importance of FIFO.

Ebenezer Kohl should have won the game for his team, but he chose to submit bogus data to Mole Trading. About 3 minutes later, JT signed up, exposing EK's treachery. Then, a key move: the other three members of Team Fark signed up, each providing, not unexpectedly, the same information as JT. Then someone from Stone Age Variables, and someone from Scheme-in-Training. With everyone providing consistent information, as I expected in an environment of trust.

The game would have been over in less than 15 minutes, except we still needed one number from Channel 4 News. Everyone was wondering if it would arrive. I am surprised that none of the teams posted the 14 known ones, to be first in case we never got the 15th. Perhaps some were trying to get it through the Trading Desk; who knows.

Anyway, finally EK caved and provided good data, we hoped. At least we could verify 7 of the 8 numbers. On a FIFO basis, I gave the last letter to JT, then to each of the other clients from Team Fark, then to Stone Age Variables, then to Scheme-in-Training, and finally to EK. JT had the solution posted as I was composing the last PM to a Team Fark client.

[Tim><]

I think the next challenge should be another EC game.

[Will Durant]

I thought the alliance I had with BC would work to our advantage. We traded all of our numbers immediately. BC worked a trade with cubedbee that left us without one number, M. I thought I could get that from Will but he wasn’t around and I dawdled too long. Cubedbee made the exchange with J.T., made the pass to BC, made the pass to me. Egads!!! The blame falls squarely on my shoulders. I will try and recover tonight for Channel 4 News.
I think you will find that your FIRST mistake was trading me to Team Fark.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

:oops:

I believe my first mistake was not locking the door to the supply closet before I handed you the pink slip. I’m on an express elevator going down.

:lol:

[the mole]

Yes indeed, Will. As the second player to submit accurate information to Mole Trading, you were only 15 seconds behind JT to get back all the digits. If you were still on Channel 4 News, they would have been second in the challenge, or maybe even first if you could turn the information around 15 seconds faster than JT did.

Let's not be too harsh on EK, though. He may have taken a real beating exchanging those dollars for RF bucks yesterday. The exchange rate in the black market has plummeted, maybe because there's less demand for RF bucks, maybe because DWSimpson Webmaster has flooded the market. In any case, tomorrow when the banks open EK will get back far fewer dollars than he originally exchanged into RF bucks.

[Tim><]

I won $10RF in a consecutive post contest. What can I buy with them?

[VernSchil]

Does anyone even read what the Mole posts? Is there anything relevant at all or is it just nonsensical rambling?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Does anyone even read what the Mole posts? Is there anything relevant at all or is it just nonsensical rambling?
You must because you recognize the nonsensical nature of the rambling. I find the mole posts entertaining.

[BC]

You would.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

For the record, I am not the mole, nor am I a member of the mole. I’ve had people ask by way of PM.

[urysohn]

For the record, I am not the mole, nor am I a member of the mole. I’ve had people ask by way of PM.
It must be that crazy part where you though the mole was funny :lol:

[the mole]

Laugh all you want, lizard man. Just remember that you would still be manning that Trading Desk for almost 6 more hours if Mole Trading hadn't gotten the job done.

Mole Trading - serving the public at popular prices.

Trading Desk (a Merrill-Lynch affiliate) - Invinci-Bull feels at home

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I would like to know how BC posted before cubedbee. I have a hunch, but may I see an explanation from either BC or cubedbee on how that was done?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

It seems like there are too many people willing to discuss with me via PM and not enough people willing to post their thoughts publicly. Hmmm…. I wonder why that is? I’m sure it becomes more difficult to keep your story straight when you open it up to the masses.

I can see it now… a bunch of you codknockers probably have notes on what lies you have spread and to whom. That’s sad. I’ll tell you honestly… I don’t keep notes. Nope. I figure let fly and let the poop fall where it Will.

[the mole]

With Mole Trading™, there's no need to keep a "story straight." You can trust me.

Reliable customers of Mole Trading™ are satisfied customers.

[BC]

I would like to know how BC posted before cubedbee. I have a hunch, but may I see an explanation from either BC or cubedbee on how that was done?

Since you ask...

I'm going to guess it was luck.

I had 4 windows open.

One was to execute a trade of info with CB. I had info he needed. He was in the process of getting info I needed. The PM was written, I just hadn't submitted it. The circumstances were such that we decided to bypass the trading post.

One was a post for the game thread with 14 of the 15 code bits in place and the cursor in the location to type number 15. It was also waiting to be submitted.

One was my inbox to see if a trade I had with another player for the last bit would go through quickly enough.

One was the thread to see if someone posted. I had actually created a list of digits (and a "tally graph" on a memo pad) that I had already obtained and their frequency so that if the code was posted by a different team I could deduce which digit I was missing.

I kept refreshing each of the 4 windows in turn.

J.T. posted the code. I instantly observed that it had 2 "2"s in it, which was inconsistent with the data I had memorized, so I quickly switched to the window with the post I wanted to make, hit "2" and submit as fast as I could, and that was that.

Nothing that anyone else couldn't have figured out to do.

Then I went ahead and sent my info to CB "for free". But he had already deduced the last bit he needed and posted.

CB was right on my heels. I imagine he had a similar system going in case one of the other teams posted before we did. It was just a matter of luck which post hit the server first, IMHO.

[BC]

Does anyone even read what the Mole posts? Is there anything relevant at all or is it just nonsensical rambling?

I think someone on the RF is trying to make a mountain out of a mole.

(Bonus points to whoever names the person that joke originally referred to).

[the mole]

I am NOT a mountain. I am a eusocial mammal of the family Talpidae. You should trust me on this by now.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

J.T. posted the code. I instantly observed that it had 2 "2"s in it, which was inconsistent with the data I had memorized, so I quickly switched to the window with the post I wanted to make, hit "2" and submit as fast as I could, and that was that.
:swear:

I thought that may be the case. I saw J.T.’s post go up before your post. I had a long moment of doubt as to whether or not trust her extra 2. I chose not to use it and then you and cubedbee flew in there and I knew I had chosen poorly. I don’t know if I had time to post after I realized 2 was the extra number but I know I waited.

I don’t think we should trust cubedbee in the future, BC. That three-way alliance turn out to help the fourth party. :shake:

[4sigma]

Next time, J.T., you should put up a post with a '9' instead of a '2' in it. See how many other people put up posts that have an extra 9 in them. ;)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Next time, J.T., you should put up a post with a '9' instead of a '2' in it. See how many other people put up posts that have an extra 9 in them. ;)
The problem with that is a coincidence. See we had N=2, but we needed M that just happened to also be 2. Had J.T. posted her number then she would have been giving us a 50/50 guess, unless as it happens that her number matched our number.

[4sigma]

Wouldn't you have concluded that M=9 and posted a wrong answer? JT's post would have matched your 14 digits and contained an extra 9.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Wouldn't you have concluded that M=9 and posted a wrong answer? JT's post would have matched your 14 digits and contained an extra 9.
Because N=2, yes, we would have concluded M=9. But look at it from J.T.’s perspective, she had M=2 and did not know N. So now do you believe she should post 2 and 9? From her perspective, she is giving us a 50/50 chance of guessing her number. Therefore she knows she has 14 of 15 right with a 1 in 10 chance at N. We then have a 50/50 chance of guessing her number to get 15 of 15 right.

[4sigma]

I see what you're saying. What I meant that she should do is post bogus values for both M and N, if she is missing N and knows that M is scarce.

For example, she knows that M=2 but does not know N. So she makes a post with M=4 and N=9. If N is either 4 or 9, a bunch of people will be off to the races with wrong answers. In the process, they will tell you what M is. If nobody bites, then you may at least assume N &lt;&gt; 4 and N &lt;&gt; 9.

[the mole]

I think I see, though it is hard to follow. Are you suggesting J.T. should lie? But doesn't that at best get temporary gain at a cost of long-term trust? And for what is only a hint at the missing number?

Instead, J.T. chose to deal with a reputable firm, and emerged with a victory and her reputation intact.

Hypothetically, if J.T. were to lie about M and N, would she not be best to use the same false value of M and N? Then if anyone bites (unless it is a double-cross), she knows the value she needs. I think her reputation is worth more than that, but at least it's a concrete benefit.

[4sigma]

I think I see, though it is hard to follow. Are you suggesting J.T. should lie? But doesn't that at best get temporary gain at a cost of long-term trust? And for what is only a hint at the missing number?

Instead, J.T. chose to deal with a reputable firm, and emerged with a victory and her reputation intact.

Hypothetically, if J.T. were to lie about M and N, would she not be best to use the same false value of M and N? Then if anyone bites (unless it is a double-cross), she knows the value she needs. I think her reputation is worth more than that, but at least it's a concrete benefit.

I think it's best to lie with different numbers.

For the sake of simplicity, suppose that the code is a 2-digit number "AB". J.T. has A and everyone else has B, but none of them are sure if J.T. has B yet or not.

JT knows that A=2 but does not know B. She posts that the answer is "49". Now if B = 4, everyone will think that A = 9 and post "49" (or "94"). Likewise if B=9 everyone will think that A=4 and likewise post 49/94. J.T. won't know whether B = 4 or 9, but she'll know that it's one of them. Also everyone will think the game is over, and a crafty J.T. can send a PM to someone asking them how they figured it out, and their reply will probably give the show away. Note that there is no penalty for the incorrect guess, per the rules:

There will be no penalty for incorrect digits, so as with the actuarial exams (maybe just on the SOA side?), guess if you need to do so. Both individuals and teams may make multiple posts. This would allow you to update your solution if you get new information (extra information beats speed in the tiebreaking category).

If instead J.T. posts "44", this will work only if B=4.

[Will Durant]

I figure let fly and let the poop fall where it Will.
HEY!!! :swear:

[the mole]

For the sake of simplicity, suppose that the code is a 2-digit number "AB". J.T. has A and everyone else has B, but none of them are sure if J.T. has B yet or not.

JT knows that A=2 but does not know B.

If instead J.T. posts "44", this will work only if B=4.
Such hypotheticals. At that point at least one representative of each of the other teams was dealing with Mole Trading; I assume they trusted their teammates enough to share what they had learned. Thus I was dealing with a situation where JT and everyone else except Channel 4 News had A, and only Channel 4 News has B. In that case the other teams will get confused when JT posts "44" and may not recover in time to react quickly when Channel 4 News bites. Obviously JT's real goal, as she has posted "Bite me EK." already.

It is bad enough that you imply JT would lie in the public thread. When you further assault her reputation by thinking she would send a crafty PM :shake:

Don't you understand the honor of southern belles which are in no way comparable to HC's northern black lab.

[the mole]

Does anyone even read what the Mole posts? Is there anything relevant at all or is it just nonsensical rambling?
Who was the first to tell you that someone from Channel 4 News would be transferred to Team Fark? Who started the process that got your team name to be Stone Age Variables? Who was the first to tell you that you would be unable to convert dollars to RF bucks at the banks today (a fact that turned out to be irrelevant, but could have made a huge difference in today's challenge)?

No one else is on top of late breaking developments.

I don't think Traina reads my posts. She's too entralled by my eyes. :wink:

[J.T.]

Does anyone even read what the Mole posts? Is there anything relevant at all or is it just nonsensical rambling?
Who was the first to tell you that someone from Channel 4 News would be transferred to Team Fark? Who started the process that got your team name to be Stone Age Variables? Who was the first to tell you that you would be unable to convert dollars to RF bucks at the banks today (a fact that turned out to be irrelevant, but could have made a huge difference in today's challenge)?

No one else is on top of late breaking developments.

I don't think Traina reads my posts. She's too entralled by my eyes. :wink:

did you leave out an h, mole?

[the mole]

Absolutely. I just wanted proof for everyone that someone was reading my posts. I knew I could trust you to come through for me. :kiss:

[urysohn]

I see what you're saying. What I meant that she should do is post bogus values for both M and N, if she is missing N and knows that M is scarce.
The numbers are scrambled, so how would you know which one was m and which one was n? or maybe that's the point of having 2 bogus. I'm speed-reading the posts right now, so I might be missing something.

[the mole]

I see what you're saying. What I meant that she should do is post bogus values for both M and N, if she is missing N and knows that M is scarce.
The numbers are scrambled, so how would you know which one was m and which one was n? or maybe that's the point of having 2 bogus. I'm speed-reading the posts right now, so I might be missing something.He thinks she should try a combination like 4 &amp; 13. If EK's number is 4, he will fall for it and assume hers was 13. Upon seeing EK's post she will know the 4 was correct. At least, that's what I think 4sigma was driving at. There was another interpretation, but it assumed that J.T. would sacrifice her reputation in a PM.

[4sigma]

I have the utmost respect for J.T.'s reputation. However, all is fair in Love, War and Survivor. In those limited circumstances, lying is acceptable, even by southern belles.

[J.T.]

I have the utmost respect for J.T.'s reputation. However, all is fair in Love, War and Survivor. In those limited circumstances, lying is acceptable, even by southern belles.

I won't lie...most of the time, but not yet in this game of Survivor.

[4sigma]

If everyone on Team Channel 4 gives their proxies to EK, can EK vote them one apiece for each of them, and get a whole new team for next round?

[J.T.]

If everyone on Team Channel 4 gives their proxies to EK, can EK vote them one apiece for each of them, and get a whole new team for next round?

:lol:

[urysohn]

If everyone on Team Channel 4 gives their proxies to EK, can EK vote them one apiece for each of them, and get a whole new team for next round?
Yes, he could, actually :D

[the mole]

If everyone on Team Channel 4 gives their proxies to EK, can EK vote them one apiece for each of them, and get a whole new team for next round?
Yes, he could, actually :D
Am I the only one who understands the rules of this game? :shake: There are conditions, under his control at the moment, that would allow him to do that. The conditions, IMO, are unlikely to be met, even if he were to have the proxies.

Anyway, why would those people give him their proxies? They should give them to someone they trust - me. Team Fark gave me their proxies, and it insured that the team would vote only one person off. Without my assistance, two of them would have been gone (if they followed their initial preferences. They might have been able to work it out by PM even without my help.)

[the mole]

Yes, it's exactly as I expected. If he had the proxies, EK could arrange a 3-way tie in the first round voting. However, he is captain of Channel 4 News (he had until midnight last night to resign). As captain, he must vote to break the tie, or he is the only one thrown off.

Yet another quality post by the mole. at least my third since the game started. Given the nonsense others were posting last night, it's time that all stop criticizing my contributions.

[urysohn]

The mole is correct. At the time the question was asked, the answer was YES. The answer is now NO, he could not. I was a bit cryptic in my response, and part of that may possibly have been a small bit of amusement I would have had if he had managed to arrange a 3-way tie only to find that he himself was the one he ended up eliminating. That would have made for great TV/webcast :D

[the mole]

So who should you trust? Someone who gives you technically correct but grossly misleading answers? Or someone of whose integrity there is no doubt? Admit it: you have no doubt whatsover as to whether the mole can be trusted.

[urysohn]

Game ethics clarification: If you have the opportunity to vote in a Tribal Council, you have an ethical duty to do so. There may be times when you will be unable to vote for matters out of your control. You are NOT bound to assign a proxy in these circumstances (since assigning a proxy involves some degree of trust, revealing some of your strategic direction). But if you are available, you should vote. NO abstaining from strategic reasons -- e.g. you've made deals with every other player not to vote for them and honor it by not voting at all. NO abstaining from voting to force a tie or otherwise manipulate the vote.

RULES clarification: You may not vote for yourself at Tribal Council. This includes the provision that if you assign a proxy, your proxy vote not being used against you.

[urysohn]

So who should you trust? Someone who gives you technically correct but grossly misleading answers? Or someone of whose integrity there is no doubt? Admit it: you have no doubt whatsover as to whether the mole can be trusted.
It was not misleading at all. My job as host is to maximize the entertainment value of this game ;)

[the mole]

I understand. Yours is an awful job, but someone has to do it.

Fortunately I have the far more satisfying job, if lower paying, of providing assistance to all the players, bonding with them in their hours of need, being the one sure source they can trust amidst a sea of participants. Participants who under normal circumstances are mainly fine, upstanding citizens, yet under these circumstances may not be fully honest because they too fear the person with whom they are dealing may not be fully honest.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I understand. Yours is an awful job, but someone has to do it.
I’m laughing each time surprises occur. As long as urysohn appreciates the madness, his job is entertaining.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I would like an open discussion about the alliance between the red and the green teams. Now that the red and green teams know that Traina and I have an alliance, should that concern the other members of the red and green teams? Does our help in avoiding tribal council tomorrow make us more likely to be voted out in future tribal councils? I am a little concerned for Traina’s security in the red team because obviously when the teams merge into two teams, Traina would readily sacrifice the members of team red for my safety. I don’t think it would be a wise move for anyone to throw a challenge just to eliminate this alliance, but it does seem obvious that an alliance exists between at least one member of green and at least one member of red.

Does any red or green team member wish to comment on this?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

PS – My post shouldn’t confuse any member of team green. If any member of team red is confused, then… well… perhaps you better begin paying more attention to the inner workings of your team.

[4sigma]

I must say I am surprised at the apparent alliance between :D and :swear: . In the first challenge, as soon as :cry: had targeted :dsmile: with their first 2 posts, it should have been clear to :x that cooperating with :D would enable :D to win.

Of course, :shake: should have also pointed this out to 8-) and encouraged :x to turn against :D sooner.


If :x goes to tribal council, I would expect them to be asking questions about who thought that cooperating with :D was such a good idea.
If :( goes to tribal council, I would question why nobody chose act more forcefully to appeal to :swear: to break their alliance with :D

[cubedbee]

If :( goes to tribal council, I would question why nobody chose act more forcefully to appeal to :swear: to break their alliance with :DAs captain and sole particpant for :swear:, I can tell you that nobody appealed to me to break the alliance, let alone forcefully.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

If :x goes to tribal council, I would expect them to be asking questions about who thought that cooperating with :D was such a good idea.
Well team red isn’t going to tribal council, but the individual members of team red better know who thought cooperating with my team was such a good idea. This will impact how long they remain in the game.

I can tell you that nobody appealed to me to break the alliance, let alone forcefully.
Was there much discussion at all in team red? It didn’t seem like good strategy to advocate against the momentary gravy train. What happens when this alliance, which isn’t all team red and green team members, turns against team members cluelessly going along for the ride?

[J.T.]

I would like to comment on today. I don't have a problem with alliances. I think they make game more manageable and more fun. But, that being said, BC and Cubed, you 2 should put yourself on our team. We played within the spirit of the rules, and got our butts beaten because of it. Unfortunately, we only had 3 members here, and I had crappy computer problems. I think that this is a bad way to play survivor, and really hope that neither one of you win. I don't know how the end game will play out, but hopefully you 2 won't be there. I will do as much as I can to protect my players on my team, but unfortunately, as we all know, 5 (now 4, tomorrow), can almost never beat 10, unless the challenges involve sheer luck.

I think the way teams Green and Red are playing are childish and (I don't want to say unfair, because by the rules, it isn't), but it definitely is very unethical. Hate to say it, but I thought actuaries were better than this for a fun game among friends online. Maybe I got into the wrong profession. I really love this website, but there are 10 people here who I could care less to have anything to do with anymore.

You know, Team 4 got it's butt kicked the first challenges also. I didn't mind, at least it was fun. Today wasn't, and I really feel like that that was the whole reason I was participating in this game.

Hope you guys are having fun, because I don't think that those of us on Team Blue are. Good luck to you in whatever you are trying to achieve.

[BC]

There are 9 people who you are blaming unnecessarily, JT. I am not one of them. Most of my team didn't even know about what was going on in challenge number 1.

[J.T.]

There are 9 people who you are blaming unnecessarily, JT. I am not one of them. Most of my team didn't even know about what was going on in challenge number 1.

There aren't 9 people....maybe 6 or 7. You at least had an accomplice.

[urysohn]

There are 9 people who you are blaming unnecessarily, JT. I am not one of them. Most of my team didn't even know about what was going on in challenge number 1.
Interesting point, though JT is correct that there had to be at least one accomplice on the Red Team. And a good portion of your team seemed to be onboard, racking up links that were quickly scooped by the Red Team.

So...how DO the "innocent" members of Team Green (sorry, but I really can't keep calling them :D, now can I? ;)) feel about this admitted collusion? Proud of the ingenuity and teamwork, indifferent, disappointed but glad with the win, disappointed and wish you'd lost instead?
The viewing audience wants to know!
And other members of Team Blue, are you as upset as JT or is this just a good tactic that you wish you'd come up with earlier?

Who had the alliance? BC and cubedbee? Ebenezer Kohl and Traina? Both? someone else?

[J.T.]

I'm pretty upset about it, but it's just a game, so I fail to care too much....More concerned about the ethics of the matter...I guess this is why I never applied for Survivor, plus I couldn't stand to lose any more weight, since I'm already underweight (even by the bad insurance standards). :o

I don't know how my other team members feel, but I think this is why some other prominent people on the RF didn't join in.

I wouldn't have participated in something like this had I been approached. It doesn't fit with my ethics. And if that means I don't win, I don't win. It's not even for a million dollars, it's for a stapler. I played because I enjoy meeting new people online, and thought it would be fun. It failed to be that today; I spent most of my afternoon dealing with this, and feeling badly that I let my team down. Hopefully, our last post gives us a chance.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Certainly what happened was within the rules and to some degree should have been anticipated. I may not have been the instigator of the collusion but I was definitely a willing and active participant.

The first challenge is nothing more than an opportunity to pit two teams against one. I haven’t reviewed that thread though I suspect BC and cubedbee colluded early. Suppose they had not colluded early. The three teams would have eliminated players evenly among the three teams for a while. At some point, at least one team will make a decision that helps an opposing team over the other opposing team.

The collusion in the second challenge may have been unfair. Because collusion between two teams was inevitable (debate if you will) in the first challenge, some form of reciprocation could be expected.

I really love this website, but there are 10 people here who I could care less to have anything to do with anymore.
I hope that feeling is temporary. I recognize that you spent a good deal of time today making an honest effort that was wasted due to our collusion.

I don't know how my other team members feel, but I think this is why some other prominent people on the RF didn't join in.
Some view voting people off the island as mean spirited. I view it as good fun.

[urysohn]

As a reminder, those who get stabbed in the back in Survivor do end up with the final word. Perhaps it will be choosing the lesser of two evils, or perhaps someone else will sneak in that you would be pleased to vote for.

Ebenezer is partly correct. If Challenge 1 was a challenge between two teams, it would have been pointless. Assuming both teams planned correctly, then whoever goes first wins. With three teams, there is a new element. I did somewhat expect some alliances to show here. But I was personally caught offguard by the complete allied play of two teams (with the quid pro quo in the second challenge), rather than individuals.

I do not plan to put in a new "game ethics" rule. I would expect that players will remember that they will need non-enemies in the endgame, as well as considering that we have completed two rounds of play and had two team shakeups so far. Your enemy today could be your teammate tomorrow. And it is your teammates that kick you out of the game. Turnabout is fair play, and all that.

[Traina]

I was also a willing participant and rather enjoyed it (despite the nail-biting moments...and there were many). However, I was really surprised that the alliance actually lasted through both of the challenges, being accustomed to watching the real Survivor, I was expecting someone to stab someone else in the back.

With respect to "guilty" members of Team Red, only I and one other person were aware of what was going down.

[J.T.]

I really love this website, but there are 10 people here who I could care less to have anything to do with anymore.
I hope that feeling is temporary. I recognize that you spent a good deal of time today making an honest effort that was wasted due to our collusion.
Nope, my opinion hasn't changed yet...I'm expecting it will take a while, and there are a few people here who I may never speak to again.

I don't know how my other team members feel, but I think this is why some other prominent people on the RF didn't join in.
Some view voting people off the island as mean spirited. I view it as good fun.

I don't view voting off as mean spirited. That's part of the game. But keeping it fun for everyone involved is part of the point EK. I just am amused that BC tried to say that I was accusing 9 people who shouldn't be. Cubed has nothing to say. Traina made one comment that she was a willing participant. So BC did lie since at least 3 people have admitted that they are participated.

OTOH...There aren't 10 people, there are actually only 9. There is one to which I must say thanks! Hopefully, you know who you are. It was very kind of you today. And no EK, it wasn't you.

Lastly, I would love to thank the mole. He/She (I assume he) has made this game (if I dare still call it that) fun for me. I love his PM's. They always make me smile, if not laugh, before I trash the horrible advice. :kiss: to you mole....

[BC]

I suppose I should mention that yes, "innocent" is relative. I take responsibility/blame for orchestrating what happened, although I thought it was pretty easy to anticipate and considered myself lucky, for once, to NOT be the one ganged up on. On team Green, I think one person went very along readily, one knew what was going on, one wasn't quite sure but followed "orders", and one questioned whether I had actually told X to do Y, presumably for the reasons J.T. mentioned. I haven't asked them since the challenge, so I apologize if I've misrepresented anyone's opinion.

I mentioned once in political during an argument about 3-party systems that the problem was solved way back in an article in the American Mathematical Monthly - 3-party systems are unstable and quickly devolve (typically, "quick" means decades) back to 2-party systems. The possibility for collusion, 2-on-1 fights is why I myself tend to shy away from games like this, Diplomacy, or most "free-for-alls", but I wanted to step outside my comfort zone a bit. I think this is why there are very few sports that are not either "strict achievement/no or little interaction" or "head-to-head".

J.T.: I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I felt like what I did was completely within the spirit of the game, as well as the letter of the rules, and you're right, I'd have hated to have been in your position.

[Will Durant]

I don't know how my other team members feel, [...]
As I said when I realized what was happening...
Well, that sucked.

[J.T.]

J.T.: I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I felt like what I did was completely within the spirit of the game, as well as the letter of the rules, and you're right, I'd have hated to have been in your position.

It's not that I'm upset about the position...Like I said, I don't mind us losing. I'm upset that you threw the ethics out of the window. That is within the rules of course, but not within my rules. I have standards that I hold myself to, whether or not I personally know my competitors IRL. As much as this site speaks of ethics, and what is fair and unfair, especially when it comes to the SOA and CAS grading hush-hush techniques, I would think that everyone would hold themselves to a higher standard. I see, for you, BC, that wasn't the case.

What really hacked me off, more than anything, was you telling Will that it wasn't personal. To me, it was, as I'm sure it was to him. It just wasn't personal to you. Being on the winning side is a fun place to be for sure, but you should always respect the people on the losing side, and that, my friend, was not what you did.

[cubedbee]

The game we playing is not some stupid thing with the hammer guy. The game we're playing is forming alliances and exploiting weaknesses in our opponents. Survivor is fun because it is a rough and tumble survival of the fittest. As I said, nobody from the Blue team even PM'd me to ask me to switch allegiances. With no diplomatic effort on their part, I don't know what they expected to happen.

[VernSchil]

Nope, my opinion hasn't changed yet...I'm expecting it will take a while, and there are a few people here who I may never speak to again.


I think you're being ridiculous. If you were on our side and say CubedBee and Will decided to team up on Green would you have spoken up and opposed the idea because it's unethical? It's part of the game. As others mentioned, challenge 1 was virtually guaranteed to have some kind of alliance reveal itself. Instead of whinning, it's your job now to find a way to counter this alliance and turn it against us. I'm positive with enough effort it would be possible.

Also, as I mentioned before, you're being pretty hypocritcal. You and someone else ruined the last Survivor game for a lot of people (you guys were the only reason I stopped watching the show and posting to the thread) because you were cheating off that spoiler website. I don't mean to throw a barb at you, but it's something you should think about before you make such extreme statements as "never speaking to some of us again."

[BC]

What really hacked me off, more than anything, was you telling Will that it wasn't personal. To me, it was, as I'm sure it was to him. It just wasn't personal to you. Being on the winning side is a fun place to be for sure, but you should always respect the people on the losing side, and that, my friend, was not what you did.

I got that, and unfortunately the context you took it in wasn't the context I meant it to be in. What I meant was that I didn't single him out to be the first "victim" on your side, and I realize that wasn't clear. It was a response to the "well, that sucked" post (which I interpreted to be, obviously incorrectly) about him not getting a turn.

[J.T.]

Nope, my opinion hasn't changed yet...I'm expecting it will take a while, and there are a few people here who I may never speak to again.


I think you're being ridiculous. If you were on our side and say CubedBee and Will decided to team up on Green would you have spoken up and opposed the idea because it's unethical? It's part of the game. As others mentioned, challenge 1 was virtually guaranteed to have some kind of alliance reveal itself. Instead of whinning, it's your job now to find a way to counter this alliance and turn it against us. I'm positive with enough effort it would be possible.

Also, as I mentioned before, you're being pretty hypocritcal. You and someone else ruined the last Survivor game for a lot of people (you guys were the only reason I stopped watching the show and posting to the thread) because you were cheating off that spoiler website. I don't mean to throw a barb at you, but it's something you should think about before you make such extreme statements as "never speaking to some of us again."

yea, I would have spoken up, because I don't feel it's ethical. As for the last Survivor game (the TV show), because I chose to post spoilers that I helped obtain (yes, I was one of the helpers on that website, and have been for 4 seasons). Check out past games and see how many times I won here....Using the exact same website.

Yes, Challenge 1 would have shown a side eventually....Would have been nice to play more than 2 pages. Would have also been more interesting if the people who were there (like Traina, EK, etc) were actually going during their turn. If not, we could have just let 3 people play.

[BC]

If Blue has the first or second move, Red and Green can prevent Blue from getting more than 3 shots with optimal play. If Blue has the third move, Red and Green can prevent Blue from getting more than 2 shots with optimal play. Blue re-ordered their people, putting Will Durant 3rd; the optimal solution given that Blue had the first move was to kill Blue players in the following order: 3rd, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 5th.

[J.T.]

For those of you on Teams Red and Green, I hope you realize your pecking order now...We seem to have found out quite a bit of information about who's running those teams. As soon as you are expendable, you will be tossed. Good luck! Hope you enjoy it as much as I am!

Pagong away BC and Cubed! :lol:

[Traina]

"The goal of this game is to find out who can outwit, outplay, and outlast their fellow RF'ers and become the SOLE SURVIVOR."

Why are you taking this game so seriously, J.T.?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Would have also been more interesting if the people who were there (like Traina, EK, etc) were actually going during their turn. If not, we could have just let 3 people play.
That was just good team strategy, like Jonah posting ODDS and my posting EVENS in the counting challenge. Patterns in static and I both acknowledged this captain-only strategy before team collusion was ever discussed.

[BC]

I was hoping to be able to do a "mod 3" or "mod 4" strategy in the counting challenge, but Vern was the only other team member to show up, so we did "mod 2" (also called "odds and evens") as well.

[J.T.]

Why are you taking this game so seriously, J.T.?

BTW, your statement makes me :lol:. Obviously you are, since you are working so hard to make as many alliances as possible and keeping yourself up in the pecking order.

[Traina]

Now THAT is funny. Do you really believe all that's being said in this thread. :shake:

[Tim><]

I want to apologize for not being able to assist today. I had extenuating personal circumstances that prevented me from being online this afternoon.

[J.T.]

I want to apologize for not being able to assist today. I had extenuating personal circumstances that prevented me from being online this afternoon.

It's OK Tim&gt;&lt;....We got our butts kicked just fine without your help! :wink:

Hope everything is OK.

[J.T.]

Now THAT is funny. Do you really believe all that's being said in this thread. :shake:

Do you? :roll:

[4sigma]

J.T.

I have a lot of empathy for your recent posts. As you pointed out, your team had no chance in challenge 1 and was at a serious disadvantage in challenge 2. Not a fun day for Team Blue. If you are looking to make new friends, I believe you are in the wrong game. You probably have better chances of making friends in Political.

In terms of game ethics, each game has its own ethics, and these are whatever the players agree upon them to be. It's not ethical for me to walk up to a stranger and punch him in the face. But in boxing, this is perfectly ethical. When you're playing that game, those are the ethics.

In Survivor, the only ethics are the rules, unless the players agree otherwise. For example, BC got annoyed with me when I kept posting to the R2C2 thread. Annoying to BC? Yes. Against what he considered ethical? Apparently so. Against the rules? No. BC and I will probably somehow continue to be friends. ;)

You make a reasonable case for "fair play", but it is up to the players whether or not they agree. Others may find it more fun to continue playing with whatever annoying, underhanded, cut-throat tactics will help them win a given challenge. By voting off those whose views are in the minority, the majority will ultimately rule.

When a majority of the teams are playing by the underhanded cutthroat rules, as in this last round, then those are the rules at that time. I think there was a good case to be made in the :dm: :dm: :dm: challenge for team 8-) to backstab team :D after the first few posts. Someone from Team :shake: would have had to make the case for this to team 8-). Had this happened, any of the 3 teams might have won that challenge. Instead, team :D was handed an easy victory by the other 2 teams.

I will reiterate that whatever your goals are in this game, I would not expect them to include "making friends." 94% of the players in this game are going to be losers. In the round that they lose, they will be voted a loser by others whose goal is that anyone but themselves become the next loser. Very often it will be unfair, arbitrary, undeserved, and antisocial. Not a situation conducive to creating new friendships.

Good luck to all players, and with your ethical choices.

[BC]

In Survivor, the only ethics are the rules, unless the players agree otherwise. For example, BC got annoyed with me when I kept posting to the R2C2 thread. Annoying to BC? Yes. Against what he considered ethical? Apparently so. Against the rules? No. BC and I will probably somehow continue to be friends. ;)


I apologize for not making this clearer sooner. My primary annoyance was the server issue. Suggesting that bystanders not post, or that once a team has "won" they be required to stop posting, was not primarily directed at spotlighting an "ethical" issue, but to mitigate a mechanical issue.

I was annoyed, but I certainly didn't consider it a breach of ethics. I learned the hard way during the very first challenge to start learning to interpret rules broadly and to the best advantage of myself and my teammates.

[BC]

The relevant post to Round 2 Challenge 2:


Ury, that was a mess. I would like to request no more server-flooding challenges, if at all possible.

Or at least keep out the teams that have already won and onlookers messing with things (no offense intended, 4Sigma, and congratulations on beating Channel 4 news for 4th place, it just would have been a lot more entertaining if things hadn't kept crashing).

I am sorry if that came across as an ethical attack, 4S. It was not intended that way.

[urysohn]

In terms of game ethics, each game has its own ethics, and these are whatever the players agree upon them to be....In Survivor, the only ethics are the rules, unless the players agree otherwise.
Close. At the risk of sounding a bit authoritarian, the RULES of this game are set by ME. Players may choose to participate or not. ETHICS are set by players. I look at this as having three tiers, and apologize to those of you who have already heard this from me by PM. There are:
- The Rules. These rules are the framework I set up in the initial post and have clarified a few times since them. If you violate these basic rules, you WILL be cheating and I will take action. Penalties are not set out in advance, because I trust everyone will abide by the rules. You'll notice some of the rules of each Challenge are a bit long-winded. If there are loop-holes I don't want you using, then I try to close them.
- Game ethics. These are pretty much rules. The only difference is that I cannot enforce them. "You may not participate in this thread using more than one RF ID." I can't really know if you do that or not. It's still a rule, but I'm not going to listen to a he-said-she-said about who owns which ID. If you violate rules like these, you WILL be cheating, even if only you know about it and there are no penalties.
- Individual ethics. There's a ton of wiggle room between the rules. That is quite intentional for a game like this. As pointed out, we have the game we see --the Challenges. We also have the game we do not see -- alliance, teamwork, conniving, strategy, etc. YOU can choose which game you are playing. As in life, YOU must also choose how you will play it. "It's in the rules" is not a valid cop-out here. You could choose to slander your coworker and take credit your their work, getting a big promotion at work. Would you do it? You're "allowed" to, but that doesn't mean you should. Some WILL wrap themselves in "it's only a game" and do whatever it takes to win. Others WILL play "fairly" and be offended by the connivers. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. But it is YOUR choice on how you want to play the game. Just remember that not everyone is going to be playing the same game you are.

[Will Durant]

As I said, nobody from the Blue team even PM'd me to ask me to switch allegiances.
Given the timeframe in which this all happened, that really wasn't feasible, now, was it?

[Will Durant]

It was a response to the "well, that sucked" post (which I interpreted to be, obviously incorrectly) about him not getting a turn.
Actually, it was NOT completely incorrect. That is part of what I meant. I also realized there was collusion between the two teams that made my immediate departure happen, and that therefore we were also going to lose the challenge and that sucked too. (A lot of meaning in a few words.)

[Will Durant]

You probably have better chances of making friends in Political.
:lol:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I will reiterate that whatever your goals are in this game, I would not expect them to include "making friends." 94% of the players in this game are going to be losers.
I make friends in these games. I would hope that you, 4sigma, see me as a friend even though I was a thorn in the side of the ghost committee and you specifically in the EC game. I took almost every opportunity to make fun of you (94% - Could you be more of a nerd?!) and I hope you appreciated the game nature of my play.

[cubedbee]

As I said, nobody from the Blue team even PM'd me to ask me to switch allegiances.
Given the timeframe in which this all happened, that really wasn't feasible, now, was it? :-? You were eliminated at 12:08. Your last teammate was not elimated until 12:40. That seems like more than enough time to write a PM. I probably wrote a dozen or more PMs during that time.

[J.T.]

I will reiterate that whatever your goals are in this game, I would not expect them to include "making friends." 94% of the players in this game are going to be losers.
(94% - Could you be more of a nerd?!)

Sorry...but had to step in and :lol: at EK's comment.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I heard the :cry: team threw yesterday’s challenges because they wanted to give the old heave ho to Jables.

:-? What? :-? Is it too early to joke about what happened? :wink: Fine. :roll: Nevermind. :shake:

:lol: Are we ready for the next two challenges, BC?

[J.T.]

I heard the :cry: team threw yesterday’s challenges because they wanted to give the old heave ho to Jables.

:-? What? :-? Is it too early to joke about what happened? :wink: Fine. :roll: Nevermind. :shake:

:lol: Are we ready for the next two challenges, BC?

That's the spirit EK....We threw those two challenges...Wanted to lure you into a sense of security....BWAHAHAHA :burn:

[4sigma]

Ury, that was a mess. I would like to request no more server-flooding challenges, if at all possible.

Or at least keep out the teams that have already won and onlookers messing with things (no offense intended, 4Sigma, and congratulations on beating Channel 4 news for 4th place, it just would have been a lot more entertaining if things hadn't kept crashing).I am sorry if that came across as an ethical attack, 4S. It was not intended that way.No offense taken. I cited it only since you were recommending a rule to prevent what I'd been doing, which was germane to the "ethics" discussion.

In terms of game ethics, each game has its own ethics, and these are whatever the players agree upon them to be....In Survivor, the only ethics are the rules, unless the players agree otherwise. Close. At the risk of sounding a bit authoritarian, the RULES of this game are set by ME. Players may choose to participate or not. ETHICS are set by players. Apologies for impugning your authority. ;) It would have been clearer if I had said that there are no ethics beyond the rules, unless the players agree otherwise. When one agrees to play the game, one is agreeing to abide by its rules, and that players should be subject to penalties (such as being booted from the game) if they fail to do so.

I make friends in these games. I would hope that you, 4sigma, see me as a friend even though I was a thorn in the side of the ghost committee and you specifically in the EC game. I took almost every opportunity to make fun of you (94% - Could you be more of a nerd?!) and I hope you appreciated the game nature of my play.Point taken. I do consider that we formed something of a friendship in the EC game, though this friendship seems to involve quite a bit of antagonizing each other. I hereby amend my prior statement.
Very often it will be unfair, arbitrary, undeserved, and antisocial. Not a situation conducive to creating new friendships. Very often it will be unfair, arbitrary, undeserved, and antisocial. Not a situation conducive to creating new friendships, unless you are looking to make friends with players such as EK who thrive upon directing unfair, arbitrary, underserved and antisocial situations towards someone other than themselves. For the record, I could be more of a nerd. BC should be able to confirm this. :D

[BC]

Ury, that was a mess. I would like to request no more server-flooding challenges, if at all possible.

Or at least keep out the teams that have already won and onlookers messing with things (no offense intended, 4Sigma, and congratulations on beating Channel 4 news for 4th place, it just would have been a lot more entertaining if things hadn't kept crashing).I am sorry if that came across as an ethical attack, 4S. It was not intended that way.No offense taken. I cited it only since you were recommending a rule to prevent what I'd been doing, which was germane to the "ethics" discussion.


I am reminded of what someone said of Rockefeller: "He never broke any laws, but a lot of laws were passed because of him."

But while I found it simultaneously annoying and amusing, I wouldn't have asked for a rule like that (or for a cessation of "fast-post" challenges, for that matter) had it not been for the server issue having reared its ugly head for the second time that night (the first time being in the very first challenge).

For the record, I could be more of a nerd. BC should be able to confirm this.

Some people stand next to fat people so that they look thinner. Guess why 4Sigma brought me up in that sentence...

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Is everyone on the red team comfortable with cubedbee as your captain? Perhaps you should explain why just to review your thoughts.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Open question for everyone except urysohn:
At the beginning of next week, assuming a :cry: blue team still exists, how many members will the :cry: blue team have?

[the mole]

Since I am in the group explicitly invited to respond (not that EK's requests would matter much): Team Blue will have 4 members at the start of next week.

That is just my opinion. This does not fall into the category of things I claim to know, like Vern's team color, where you could trust me 100%.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Does that response assume the :cry: blue team will not go to tribal council on Friday?

[the mole]

There are two cases that would give Blue four players:
1. Blue does not go to Tribal Council.
2. Blue goes to Tribal Council, loses a member, gains one from another team.

I predict (not in "trust me" mode, just an opinion) that Blue does not go to Tribal Council.

Since your original question was addressed to anyone besides urysohn, I will not tell you what urysohn has told me about team rearrangements. (Even if you do ask, then sorry, he has not authorized me to disclose that.)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

There are two cases that would give Blue four players:
1. Blue does not go to Tribal Council.
2. Blue goes to Tribal Council, loses a member, gains one from another team.
Interesting. So in the current challenge collusion is unethical and there is a random nature to the results. Seems there is an equally likely chance for each team to make tribal council.

Blue 1/3 – Red 1/3 – Green 1/3

Now if Blue goes to tribal council, it seems that urysohn will have the captain of either Red or Green send a member to Blue.

Thus, the probability of going down a team member is,

Blue: 1/3 * 0 = 0
Red: 1/3 + (1/3)*(1/2) = 1/2
Green: 1/3 + (1/3)*(1/2) = 1/2

:tfh: This doesn’t look good for the Red and Green team. :tfh: With the sorry bunch of losers on the :cry: blue team, one wonders if they will choose to throw three challenges in a row?! :lol: I’m sure an addition of a Red or Green team member will help them competitively. ;)

[the mole]

Now if Blue goes to tribal council, it seems that urysohn will have the captain of either Red or Green send a member to Blue.Not necessarily. This time urysohn might (I am not authorized to confirm this) let Team Blue draft a player from Red or Green, with no one, not even captains, protected. If you can analyze J.T.'s evaluation of the opposing players, you would not assign equal odds to Red and Green being the team whose player is taken.

[urysohn]

There are two cases that would give Blue four players:
1. Blue does not go to Tribal Council.
2. Blue goes to Tribal Council, loses a member, gains one from another team.
Interesting. So :blah:
oooh, so many things wrong with that post. Random?!? Yes, certainly a random element to the costs. But SO much possibility for analysis, risk management, and competitional pressure (just to name a few of the factors) that the random element hardly gives all teams equal odds -- IF one team has the skill to make informed decisions.

You assume I would shake up teams if Blue goes two men down but possibly not otherwise. Possible. I will say, as I have before, that shakeups of that nature are not impacted by particular game play. That is, I will not choose to shake up teams to break up alliances, keep one particular team from getting beat up on, etc. My schedule for changes is set. Which does not mean they were not planned to avoid one team getting too undermanned, mind you, so your speculation is quite possible. You also overlook that maybe there will no longer be a Blue Team (Blue gets absorbed into Red and Green), that all teams will be dissolved, that we will switch to two teams, that we have one every-man-for-themselves challenge before breaking back up into teams,... So many exciting possibilities ;)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Yes, I overlooked the competitional pressure. :lol:

Which does not mean they were not planned to avoid one team getting too undermanned, mind you, so your speculation is quite possible. You also overlook that maybe there will no longer be a Blue Team
Open question for everyone except urysohn:
At the beginning of next week, assuming a :cry: blue team still exists, how many members will the :cry: blue team have?
Now if Blue goes to tribal council, it seems that urysohn will have the captain of either Red or Green send a member to Blue.Not necessarily. This time urysohn might (I am not authorized to confirm this) let Team Blue draft a player from Red or Green, with no one, not even captains, protected. If you can analyze J.T.'s evaluation of the opposing players, you would not assign equal odds to Red and Green being the team whose player is taken.
:tfh: I fear that my days on team Green are numbered. It is obvious that J.T. should have her team throw this challenge and select the cream of the crop from the other teams. Women can’t resist the bull amongst steers. ;) Perhaps patterns in static can name me the franchise player for green to avoid this tragedy. :lol:

One thing is certain… the :cry: team should throw the current challenge.

[the mole]

One thing is certain… the :cry: team should throw the current challenge.Certain? How odd. My prediction that Blue will not go to Tribal Council was based on the assumption that team :D would throw the current challenge to make sure they kept the bull among steers on their roster.

Perhaps team :D cannot cooperate on the best strategy, or perhaps they don't recognize the value of that bull.

[BC]

I see that the word "bull" has been truncated in the past few posts. Is this because of the auto-censor?

edited to add: Looks like it got truncated in this post, too.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

The bull amongst steers has never been truncated. That is why I remain the bull amongst steers and not a mere steer. There is a whole lot of bull to go around. :lol: ;)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I heard Contract 4 offers the second best profit margin with little initial investment cost.

[the mole]

You best edit that post quick, buster. We take anti-trust collusion violations very seriously around here.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

:-? I don't know whether to believe you or not? :-?

[the mole]

Along those lines, federal investigators are investigating collusion between Teams Red and Green. Their actions in the previous challenge, while collusion was established, did not violate anti-trust rules. In the current challenge, unnamed sources have asserted that Red and Green are using the same cost study information.

In a related development, Mole Construction has gotten an injunction alleging restraint of trade, and will be permitted to bid on any of the projects. This will be good not only for the customers, but for Team Red, Team Blue and Team Green. We can use our capital rather than yours to get the projects, then subcontract them out to you. We recover our initial costs, then take only 10% of the profit. You'll get whatever profit you earn from your own bids, plus 90% of the profit on any jobs subcontracted to you.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Placing maximum bids on Contracts 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 produces the maximum expected profit while also conveniently using all of the initial surplus.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

The previous bids yield a 634% profit. Not bad, huh?

[the mole]

While this may be true in the absence of other factors, the true way to maximize profit is by enlisting the services of Mole Re™ and Mole Construction.

Mole Construction is currently in negotiations to subcontract # 3, 5, 7, and 10. Note how this helps our potential business partner avoid the high capital costs on these projects while sharing in the profits.

Mole Construction, while run independently of Mole Re™, does recommend the use of Mole Re™ in order to avoid the risk of a serious loss. The team with the lowest profit goes to Tribal Council. Insuring against this is truly priceless.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

:D I predict 4sigma will be laughing shortly. :wink:

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.]

have you guys ever played the spoons?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
And there it was. :lol:

have you guys ever played the spoons?
Yes. :D

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.]

well have y'all?

[4sigma]

:D I predict 4sigma will be laughing shortly. :wink:

Indeed, there is a fair bit of humor in this challenge. :lol:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Here is a description of Spoons (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A603424).

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Here is a description of steers - Teams :x & :cry:

Cuz they ain't got no... well... you know! ;)

:D

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I would like to discuss the following two posts and I think there is material here that matters to all the tribes though the specific names may change from tribe to tribe.

Of course you would side with your alliance buddy [cubedbee], Vern. Thanks for showing up though you have been no help thus far.

Both matters are hit in this very short post. The first addresses my fear that the BC and cubedbee alliance is much bigger than two. The second is that there are some among us who haven’t pulled their weight for two weeks.

If you have doubt that BC and cubedbee have an alliance, I feel sorry for you. Who else is a part of this alliance? Traina picked cubedbee first so I am a little nervous about that but cubedbee is a very active poster and an obvious benefit to her initial team. As a woman, I cut her more slack than the men. I would like to note that Legends 3 was dominated by women, which could have been due to the men cutting them too much slack, but that is another topic. The second pick was Vern choosing BC. A good pick mind you, but one I assume demonstrated some sort of trust and understanding. I’m not suggesting anyone was a better pick, but I do believe Vern reasoned that pick, and therefore conclude that sense I know BC and cubedbee have an alliance, then Vern is also in this alliance. Vern’s activity is consistent with his alliance security.

On my current team, Vern has been a bump on the log for two weeks. Butters isn’t much better. Both were available enough to comment on the last challenge, but neither lifted a finger to help. As the only team with five members after today, I would like patterns in static and BC to consider letting Vern and Butters compete in the next challenge. BC can aid with academic support, patterns in static can aid with leadership ability, and I’ll throw in my trash talk but win or lose, I think we lose a member of the green team after the next challenge and I would like to dump the one least likely to benefit our team.

I just went to go check the NewTeam site. Big surprise. Still no offer of assistance from Vern. You must be sitting mighty pretty. Huh, Vern?

Sorry. I had forgotten about that NewTeam site. (don't worry. I'm not doing any scheming. I've actually been really busy with stuff this week and haven't had much time to think about RF Survivor). I knew I wouldn't have much time to work on this challenge and actually thought it was one in which team collaboration wouldn't necessarily help.

This second post isn’t necessary to show any further detail outside of our team (because our team should realize Vern’s response is bogus). I just wanted to include it instead of simply quoting my post alone.

What did you gain from this post? BC and cubedbee have an alliance that is most likely more than just the two of them. Dead weight should meet a just end.

I would love to see discussion on this.

[the mole]

On my current team, Vern has been a bump on the log for two weeks. Butters isn’t much better. Both were available enough to comment on the last challenge, but neither lifted a finger to help.Who are you trying to fool? Who saved Green from Tribal Council? Butters.

Someone else on Team :D posted results that said Team :D had contract 9. It was a questionable matter. If Team :D was acknowledging ownership of contract 9, would anyone else have disputed it? Maybe after the results, if contract 9 turned out good. A judicious silence would be best for 8-) until results are known. OTOH, if Team :D tried to disavow contract 9 only after results were known :roll:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Ego gets the best of me and it still does. The deadline was x:00.00, not x:00:59. I clearly beat cubedbee for Contract 9. It would be better if I shut my mouth on that since it would mean green goes to TC. My results post came after Contract 9 was exposed as a stinker.

[VernSchil]

Ek, I can honestly say you're definitely overanalyzing my level of involvement. I admit I've been MIA recently. I've had a lot going on and some of these last challenges required considerable more time and effort which I haven't been able to provide this week. I will try my best to be more active in the next challenge.

[the mole]

Is the only fair way to resolve Contract 9 to send both 8-) and :D to TC?

And EK, I see you did claim ownership of Contract 9 after it was known to be a stinker. I admire that. You seem to be as honest as I am good-looking.

[Butters]

On my current team, Vern has been a bump on the log for two weeks. Butters isn’t much better.

Excuse me, but I did help out. We've only had three challenges so far. In the first challenge, BC handled it by himself so the rest of us could take care of the second challenge. Since we won the first challenge, the second one became unnecessary, but I still contributed by answering the 10 questions that I was assigned. For the third challenge, I knew BC could design a model better than anything I could come up with. I also had the misfortune to get sick that day, so I wasn't online until the challenge was almost over.

I will be around for the morning challenge (unless work interferes). I'll continue to do my best to help my team!

[Butters]

On my current team, Vern has been a bump on the log for two weeks. Butters isn’t much better. Both were available enough to comment on the last challenge, but neither lifted a finger to help.Who are you trying to fool? Who saved Green from Tribal Council? Butters.

Someone else on Team :D posted results that said Team :D had contract 9. It was a questionable matter. If Team :D was acknowledging ownership of contract 9, would anyone else have disputed it? Maybe after the results, if contract 9 turned out good. A judicious silence would be best for 8-) until results are known. OTOH, if Team :D tried to disavow contract 9 only after results were known :roll:

Thank you for pointing that out, mole.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Appreciation of the mole post strikes me as desperate.
I will be around for the morning challenge (unless work interferes). I'll continue to do my best to help my team!
I hope that same desperation is demonstrated in the morning challenge. :lol: Good luck, Butters.

I will try my best to be more active in the next challenge.
Wow. I still don’t know whether you plan to participate with the team today. My “Morning Challenge Strategy” has been ignored for three days. Color me crazy but I would like to know whether you intend to show up today. I don’t know?… it could possibly be relevant to any vote I may cast at Tribal Council. ;)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

So who thinks we merge to two teams of six today? You would be wrong. Obviously urysohn will make that announcement tomorrow morning.

:lol:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

So who thinks we merge to two teams of six today? You would be wrong. Obviously urysohn will make that announcement tomorrow morning.

:lol:
Maybe that send off of Vern was a formality and we will still merge to two teams of six today.

:horse:

[urysohn]

And maybe not ;)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Here are some possible clues.

(NOTE -- we will still be having a challenge on Thursday, just not this one)
Blue added for emphasis.
BTW, when is the next challenge?
No answer from urysohn.

While these clues are far from compelling, they are consistent with a twist today.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

BTW, when is the next challenge?
No answer from urysohn.
Again, not compelling as urysohn's last post to the RO is above, but I wonder if a lack of response avoids answering what is a natural question.

Hmmm... perhaps urysohn is reading and hiding.

:mona:

[urysohn]

or maybe he didn't want to announce a time until he knew for sure what the Challenge was going to be. I'm glad I waited :P

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Rats!!! :viola: :D

[aces219]

What is with the red team?

[VernSchil]

It's all part of our master plan.

[Hagbard Celine]

So, how will cubedbee respond to hanging Vern out to dry in this challenge? What does cubed care, he's safe...

How does the rest of Team Red feel about this. Certainly being traded to Red is a death sentence at this point.

:viola:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

So, how will cubedbee respond to hanging Vern out to dry in this challenge? What does cubed care, he's safe...
You may know more than I do, but Vern may not be hung out to dry. It does seem plausible to me that The Cat in the Hat will get the old boot in the rump tomorrow.
How does the rest of Team Red feel about this. Certainly being traded to Red is a death sentence at this point.
We will see. How openly are we going to discuss what happened today? Team green was able to put the pieces together, so if you want to call someone out, it will come us no surprise to anyone.

[Butters]

I will be interested to see who gets the boot tomorrow. I think cubedbee is safe as long as the player that voted with him last time (Tim&gt;&lt;?)remains loyal to him. Assuming that player is loyal, I would assume he is safe as well. Vern may be voted out since he was only recently added to the team. It also looked like his team hung him out to dry in Challenge 2. However, my guess is that the player that voted against cubedbee in the last tribal council (The Cat in the Hat?) will be shown the door. If it was The Cat in the Hat that voted with Traina against cubedbee in the last round, his absence in the first challenge also supports his dismissal.

[Traina]

Unless Team Red sorts out their leadership issues, Teams Green and Blue probably won't be seeing Tribal Council any time soon.

[urysohn]

Unless Team Red sorts out their leadership issues, ...
Allow me to translate:

Until Team Red overthrows that little b@stard that got me booted last week,...


:D

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I guarantee Tim and cubedbee are in an alliance together. Tim invited me before the teams merged from four to three and I haven't heard from them since.

Rocky threw a vote on Tim the TC that Rocky fell on the sword. It is possible that Traina and The Cat thought Tim was the next to go since Tim was coming from another team. When cubedbee refused to vote for Tim, Traina and The Cat may have voted for cubedbee to get him to demonstrate his tiebreaker vote. Of course, The Cat may have been in on that demonstration, which was clearly for show purposes. In this case, Vern gets the boot tomorrow. I’m interested to see how it plays out.

Really Traina. There may be a mad rush to throw the next challenge. Every team may pursue the goal of losing the challenges.

[Traina]

Really Traina. There may be a mad rush to throw the next challenge. Every team may pursue the goal of losing the challenges.

Only if you were captain :D

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Only if you were captain :D
Please explain.

[Traina]

Why?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Because this is the campfire chatter, we may chitchat. I am being very open and will reply to questions asked me. Your comment is very suggestive and I just want you to take responsibility for your implication.

So do you want to explain or no? Trust me, you won’t be voted out again.

[Traina]

Trust me, you won’t be voted out again.
Oh, you haven't heard about the upcoming twist. :D

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Will Durant gave the first challenge to the Green Team. The Red Team threw the second challenge.

[Traina]

Elvis lives

[Traina]

heehee...just messing with you guys.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Traina, did you write a suicide letter to the Red Team? Did you request to be voted out?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

You did, didn't you. :wink:

[the mole]

Will Durant gave the first challenge to the Green Team. The Red Team threw the second challenge.You have real trust issues, EK.

What would WD gain by handing challenge 1 to Green? Even more, what would Red gain by throwing a challenge? The ability to get rid of a powerful player while he is on their team, one they might have trouble eliminating later?

Why would Red have tried to win the first challenge if they were planning to tank the second? Or are you suggesting that the Cat's question to me about tokens was just a distraction, and that he was planning not to use any tokens regardless of the answer?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Will Durant gave the first challenge to the Green Team. The Red Team threw the second challenge.You have real trust issues, EK.
Obviously.

What would WD gain by handing challenge 1 to Green?
This action was a coordinated attempt to secure BC’s place in Green, not just for this round, but for future rounds. BC made an insincere offer that even the Blue team has questioned me if it is valid. Amazing how the Blue team knows, BC, isn’t it?

Even more, what would Red gain by throwing a challenge?
The Red team has a person to vote out tomorrow. The Red team also has BC and WD on the other teams who would most likely be voted out at their next TC.

The ability to get rid of a powerful player while he is on their team, one they might have trouble eliminating later?
No, that is not the position of Red. That would be the position of Green and Blue if they throw the next challenge.

Why would Red have tried to win the first challenge if they were planning to tank the second?
Red did not try to win. In fact, they conspired to lose.

Or are you suggesting that the Cat's question to me about tokens was just a distraction, and that he was planning not to use any tokens regardless of the answer?
The question isn’t of a serious nature. Whether The Cat was available or not is irrelevant. Perhaps that was a hoax, perhaps that was backlash,… either way, we will know after TC.

[the mole]

The ability to get rid of a powerful player while he is on their team, one they might have trouble eliminating later?
No, that is not the position of Red. That would be the position of Green and Blue if they throw the next challenge.
So in your theories will Red still have an expendable player after Tribal Council, so that they will throw another? If Red does not lose another player (by throwing or just losing), then Blue or Green will lose a player then, barring an unlikely rebalancing.

Is your plan just to try to trick Blue into throwing the next challenge?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

The ability to get rid of a powerful player while he is on their team, one they might have trouble eliminating later?
No, that is not the position of Red. That would be the position of Green and Blue if they throw the next challenge.
So in your theories will Red still have an expendable player after Tribal Council, so that they will throw another?
Yes. Expendable and in the not-so-secret alliance are not mutually exclusive.
If Red does not lose another player (by throwing or just losing), then Blue or Green will lose a player then, barring an unlikely rebalancing.

Is your plan just to try to trick Blue into throwing the next challenge?
That is not it entirely, but yes that is a side benefit.

[the mole]

Yes. Expendable and in the not-so-secret alliance are not mutually exclusive.None of alliances are secret from me. Are you referring to the alliance that includes cubedbee and BC among others?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Yes. Expendable and in the not-so-secret alliance are not mutually exclusive.None of alliances are secret from me.
This is a self-delusional statement. Suppose I was to say I hear everything. To me that may be true, because I am unaware of what I don’t hear. I am not so deluded as to believe there is nothing beyond my hearing. A tree that falls in the woods makes a sound regardless of whether it was heard or not.

Are you referring to the alliance that includes cubedbee and BC among others?
I think it is more correct to say the alliance that includes cubedbee, BC, and Will Durant. Of course, Tim clings on to this alliance hoping BC or Will Durant drops off before the merge to improve his place. Vern and The Cat in the Hat may also be part of this alliance. Traina may have been a part of this alliance. Have no doubt this game is being seen as a revenge of the un-mighty EC. They will become two-time loosers.

This brings us back to this statement.
Only if you were captain :D
Is Traina attempting to create discord in Green? Or does she know something that isn’t completely obvious? Time will tell.

[the mole]

Yes. Expendable and in the not-so-secret alliance are not mutually exclusive.None of alliances are secret from me.
This is a self-delusional statement. Suppose I was to say I hear everything. To me that may be true, because I am unaware of what I don’t hear. I am not so deluded as to believe there is nothing beyond my hearing. A tree that falls in the woods makes a sound regardless of whether it was heard or not.
In your example, the possibility of a tree falling in the woods beyond your hearing does not mean you have not heard everything.

In my case, I have no knowledge of a two-player alliance of only J.T. and Will Durant. If such alliance exists, I was wrong that there are no alliances secret from me. If it does not, its hypothetical existence does not contradict my statement.

My statement was limited to alliances between players. 4Sigma may be helping BC without my knowledge.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

What did aces219 promise to get all of those votes? Kerry and Bush want to know!!!

[Butters]

What did aces219 promise to get all of those votes? Kerry and Bush want to know!!!


Depending on aces219's answer to that question, I might be willing to vote for Team Blue!

[aces219]

Didn't promise a thing. I'm just nice.

[4sigma]

Some of the other participants may wish to consider the merits of changing their avatar to an adorable kitten.

[Nanny-Nanny-Poo-Poo]

An adorable kitten avatar? I'm looking for a tom cat avatar that will get that adorable kitten excited.

[Butters]

I wonder how many actual people are voting in the Sweeps thread. I'm betting that about half of the votes are coming from various alternate IDs.

[Traina]

Yeah, you're probably right. I think Sammie alone has provided Blue with at least 4 votes.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Yeah, you're probably right. I think Sammie alone has provided Blue with at least 4 votes.
:D

[Ebenezer Kohl]

:wave: Does anyone have a comment to make concerning Survivor R7C2 - From Whom Did I Find That? :lol:

[urysohn]

Yeah, you're probably right. I think Sammie alone has provided Blue with at least 4 votes.
:D
You forgot the 1 in front of that 4, I think :lol:

[Traina]

:lol:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I find it interesting that urysohn assumes “Blue might have helped out a little bit (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=34974&start=170)” when Blue believes such collusion “impedes proper competition and fair play. (http://actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=36298)” Hmmm….

[Gandalf]

Urysohn is so out of it. He doesn't realize that Red just threw another challenge. Blue didn't help Green. Red sent answers to both, then didn't submit the answers themselves.

[the mole]

Gandalf, that is the most ridiculous theory I've ever heard. I offered all three teams the same package of links, on the sole condition that they trust me and submit any of them for pictures they didn't have. It was a no-risk proposition: they could also submit other links if they didn't like the ones I was offering.

Blue and Green, independently, trusted me. At least at the time, Green said mine included 5 they didn't already have; for Blue it was only 3 new ones. Red didn't trust, and paid the price.

[4sigma]

When the teams next rebalance, team :D and team :shake: should consider sending their strongest players to team :x.

Since team :x is continuing to use the "throwing challenges" strategy, there is no need to keep strong players on one's own team. Instead, by sending one's strongest players to team :x, these players can be eliminated from the game before individual play begins.

This is clearly an optimal strategy for both team :D and team :shake:

[4sigma]

Gandalf, that is the most ridiculous theory I've ever heard. I offered all three teams the same package of links, on the sole condition that they trust me and submit any of them for pictures they didn't have. It was a no-risk proposition: they could also submit other links if they didn't like the ones I was offering.

Blue and Green, independently, trusted me. At least at the time, Green said mine included 5 they didn't already have; for Blue it was only 3 new ones. Red didn't trust, and paid the price.

I agree with Gandalf that it is far more likely that Red is intentionally throwing challenges, rather than the alternative hypothesis that Red does not trust the mole. Doesn't everyone trust the mole?

[the mole]

Gandalf might have been right about Red throwing challenges. He is wrong that Red sent answers to Green and Blue: I did.

[Traina]

Sure you did.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Suppose that Tim and Vern unite to vote out cubedbee. Tim and Vern then compete without a captain in the next challenge. Let’s suppose they lose. Tim and Vern both go to TC and will both be eliminated casting opposing votes. Suppose they elect a captain prior to the next TC. That would be a death sentence for the non-captain. It would seem more reasonable to go without a captain into the next challenge because both would be compelled equally to win.

Tim and Vern, do not let cubedbee suggest to you that it is in your favor to vote out the other. Suppose cubedbee actually votes with you. Do you really think cubedbee will take the next challenge seriously? Now is the time to do away with a failed captain. To do otherwise is to give up on the game.

Suppose cubedbee again wears an immunity necklace and his sub-alliance partners Tim and Vern are more likely targets. Neither Tim nor Vern were EC, so both are expendable even though both are committed to cubedbee, the master of puppets. It does seem likely the cubedbee could afford to lose another challenge hoping to save both Will and BC from certain TC eviction.

[the mole]

Suppose that Tim and Vern unite to vote out cubedbee. Tim and Vern then compete without a captain in the next challenge. Let’s suppose they lose. Tim and Vern both go to TC and will both be eliminated casting opposing votes. Suppose they elect a captain prior to the next TC. That would be a death sentence for the non-captain. It would seem more reasonable to go without a captain into the next challenge because both would be compelled equally to win.Do not be silly, EK. Have you never heard of trust?

Tim and Vern are competitors. Could you really imagine Vern not trying in the next challenge if he were captain? Or Tim not trying?

If cubedbee stays, then Tim or Vern knows now that he is going into the next challenge not as captain. Suppose instead Tim and Vern vote out cubedbee, agreeing beforehand that it will be random which of them becomes the new captain. They can ask the lovely Pillow for a random number, having previously agreed that if Pillow gives an odd number Tim becomes captain and if an even number Vern does (or vice versa).

This does not mean cubedbee has to go. Vern (for example) could reach the same kind of deal with cubedbee: vote out Tim, get a random number from Pillow, based on that either cubedbee stays captain or Vern becomes captain.

Relationships are so simple as long as they are built on trust.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Do not be silly, EK. Have you never heard of trust?
I’ve heard rumor of trust from those with a knife in their back.

Tim and Vern are competitors.
Vern was a bump on the log among Green. Vern puts Tim to shame. Has Tim done anything useful during any challenge?

Could you really imagine Vern not trying in the next challenge if he were captain? Or Tim not trying?
Yes. Imagine Vern being asked by a coworker to share a refreshment break during a challenge. I imagine that is enough incentive to bail out on Tim. Remember, the stronger the challenge participant in team play, the more likely this person will be a target in individual play.

If cubedbee stays, then Tim or Vern knows now that he is going into the next challenge not as captain.
How is that? Of course, cubedbee would continue as captain assuming he isn’t voted out now.

Suppose instead Tim and Vern vote out cubedbee, agreeing beforehand that it will be random which of them becomes the new captain. They can ask the lovely Pillow for a random number, having previously agreed that if Pillow gives an odd number Tim becomes captain and if an even number Vern does (or vice versa).
This would be an error. Suppose Pillow indicates A should be the new captain. It would not be in B’s advantage to follow through with this agreement.

This does not mean cubedbee has to go. Vern (for example) could reach the same kind of deal with cubedbee: vote out Tim, get a random number from Pillow, based on that either cubedbee stays captain or Vern becomes captain.
That is just silly. There is NO WAY cubedbee would give up the position of captain to Vern or Tim.

Relationships are so simple as long as they are built on trust.
Yes, I agree. Everyone should trust me and this will make my relationships easier.

[4sigma]

We don't know yet whether the teams will be rebalanced after this Tribal Council.

I would not want to be on a 2-man team where I wasn't the captain. Then again, I wouldn't want to be on a 2-man team where there's no captain either.

Team :x needs to be taking a good hard look at what it needs to do to turn around and start winning challenges, which it has not done since Round 3.

It is possible to claim bad luck on the Contracts and Piggy Banks challenges, but Team :x essentially sat out the "not good with faces" challenge, was a fraction too slow in the cryptogram challenge, missed some glaring opportunities in the Capitals challenge, and made a very weak effort in the "where did I find this" challenge.

Do we expect this level of effort to improve in the future? Somebody needs to take responsibility for this. CubedBee? Vern? Tim&gt;&lt;?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Somebody needs to take responsibility for this. CubedBee? Vern? Tim&gt;&lt;?
Will? BC?

[4sigma]

Somebody needs to take responsibility for this. CubedBee? Vern? Tim&gt;&lt;?
Will? BC?

EK? :D

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I guarantee Tim and cubedbee are in an alliance together. Tim invited me before the teams merged from four to three and I haven't heard from them since.
While it is true that I was in an alliance with Tim and cubedbee. I guarantee that I have burnt that bridge beyond repair. Trust me. My indicating that team Red won the cryptogram challenge was merely an illusion to confuse everyone. Yeah, right. That’s it.

[Traina]

Sure EK...is there anyone you are not in an alliance with? Weren't you supposedly in an alliance with me at some point.

[the mole]

There is no alliance between EK and me. If EK is benefitting from my work, it is because we have an alliance-mate in common. That would not be surprising, considering how many alliances I am in.

[the mole]

Suppose instead Tim and Vern vote out cubedbee, agreeing beforehand that it will be random which of them becomes the new captain. They can ask the lovely Pillow for a random number, having previously agreed that if Pillow gives an odd number Tim becomes captain and if an even number Vern does (or vice versa).
This would be an error. Suppose Pillow indicates A should be the new captain. It would not be in B’s advantage to follow through with this agreement.It is to B's advantage to appear to be one who keeps commitments, which more than compensates for any small drawback to not being captain.

This does not mean cubedbee has to go. Vern (for example) could reach the same kind of deal with cubedbee: vote out Tim, get a random number from Pillow, based on that either cubedbee stays captain or Vern becomes captain.
That is just silly. There is NO WAY cubedbee would give up the position of captain to Vern or Tim.Not likely to happen, but cubedbee could be forced to make the commitment to avoid being voted out, and then has some incentive to keep the commitment once made.

[the mole]

As you speculated, and only ury and I know, there could be some sort of reorganization after this round. Should that possibility affect their strategy? Do they have anything to offer me for the information, so that they could make an informed decision? I doubt it.

[E. Blackadder]

"could" is a weasel word.

[the mole]

When you're in the information business, you don't give it away free.

If I said "there will not be a reorganization", they would not need anything more now.

If I said "there will be a reorganization", they might conclude that is sufficient for their voting decision, and not contract with me for the details.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Sure EK...is there anyone you are not in an alliance with?
Sure. However, I have contacted everyone remaining in the game by PM at some point one way or another. A hard alliance with everyone?... no. Though I am more connected than the mole at this point. ;)

Weren't you supposedly in an alliance with me at some point.
According to Blue's perspective, yes, but not according to that of Red and Green. :D See "our alliance" was a cloaked term describing the alliance between BC and cubedbee. Everyone in Green knew that BC used his alliance with cubedbee to fix the Target challenge. I had assumed everyone in Red knew this as well. I used you and me to describe what was going on without giving away that cubedbee and BC were in an alliance. However, the two of us did help fix the challenge after the Target challenge. I wasn't getting much of the response I desired from the EK-Traina as Red seemed clueless so I gave up promoting this cover alliance and simply began highlighting the true EC alliance.

[Traina]

Not clueless, just ignoring you.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Team :x needs to be taking a good hard look at what it needs to do to turn around and start winning challenges, which it has not done since Round 3.
Red seemed clueless
Not clueless, just ignoring you.
So… since the time you began ignoring me, Red has consistently gone to Tribal Council, where even you have been voted out. Are you sure you don’t wish to reconsider the clueless option? ;) :lol:

[E. Blackadder]

I think EK has the hots for Trania. ;-)

[Guest]

Yeah, you're probably right. I think Sammie alone has provided Blue with at least 4 votes.
:D
You forgot the 1 in front of that 4, I think :lol:
:oops: I don't have that many IDs.

[Traina]

I think EK has the hots for Trania. ;-)
:lol:

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I voted Will Durant. Does anyone else wish to discuss their vote?

I am particularly interested in whom BC has voted. Do tell.

[urysohn]

I found this post in the Battleship game to be interesting:
Fire O-11

I've taken care of all the lower 14's, patterns.
Did cubedbee just observe that he and patterns were marking off similar patterns? Did he inadvertantly let a secret alliance slip into public view? Curious minds want to know!

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Yes, cubedbee, what the heck was that? Do tell.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Battleship Grid
For example, JT’s battleship was hit by EK, PS, PS, and CB.

JT EK PS PS CB
CB PS PS PS PS
BU HC BC BC EK
HC CB CB BC BC
PS BC BC HC CB
BC PS EK EK EK
EK CB CB CB CB
VS BC EK BC EK
WD EK PS PS VS
AC PS CB CB EK

cubedbee put a solid kill on me and the favor was returned by patterns in static.

6 EK hit JT, BU, BC, VS, WD, AC.
6 CB hit JT, BU, HC, PS, EK, AC
4 BC hit BU, HC, PS, VS
4 PS hit JT, CB, WD, AC.
2 HC hit BU, PS
1 VS hit WD

[BC]

I would suggest the more innocent interpretation that we were getting bored (since it was random shooting) and just wanted to make sure we'd finished off the whole board as quickly as possible.

I did enjoy the challenge, but it would have been a bit more strategic if you'd been able to update as you'd planned. Of course, you haven't missed a single challenge to date, so I'm in no position to criticize :)

[urysohn]

"code"ing EK's post so it lines up -- personally, I have no idea what he's talking about. 10x5 grid that he posts -- particular "quadrant" from the game grid?
JT EK PS PS CB
CB PS PS PS PS
BU HC BC BC EK
HC CB CB BC BC
PS BC BC HC CB
BC PS EK EK EK
EK CB CB CB CB
VS BC EK BC EK
WD EK PS PS VS
AC PS CB CB EK

[urysohn]

I did enjoy the challenge, but it would have been a bit more strategic if you'd been able to update as you'd planned.
:lol: that's why I almost made Battleship the evening challenge. But can you imagine the mess I'd have had on my hands if I'd tried to do RPS during the day? Aye, aye, aye, it already, ummmm, "bordered" on fiasco. It would have been ugly.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

You've done an excellent job with the challenges. It is difficult to keep everyone on the same page without the challenges being too simplistic. I don't think you have had anything overly complex and nothing run-of-the-mill.

I'm surprised there weren't more snafus clouding the battleship challenge. :x :D

[snafu]

You've done an excellent job with the challenges. It is difficult to keep everyone on the same page without the challenges being too simplistic. I don't think you have had anything overly complex and nothing run-of-the-mill.

I'm surprised there weren't more snafus clouding the battleship challenge. :x :D

You rang

Wasn't any fun when my disruptive fire failed to disrupt.

[4sigma]

"code"ing EK's post so it lines up -- personally, I have no idea what he's talking about. 10x5 grid that he posts -- particular "quadrant" from the game grid?
JT EK PS PS CB
CB PS PS PS PS
BU HC BC BC EK
HC CB CB BC BC
PS BC BC HC CB
BC PS EK EK EK
EK CB CB CB CB
VS BC EK BC EK
WD EK PS PS VS
AC PS CB CB EK

It's not a quadrant. The first column is the initials of the owner of the battleship. The next 4 columns are whose salvos hit them.

[BC]

You've done an excellent job with the challenges. It is difficult to keep everyone on the same page without the challenges being too simplistic. I don't think you have had anything overly complex and nothing run-of-the-mill.

I'm surprised there weren't more snafus clouding the battleship challenge. :x :D

You rang

Wasn't any fun when my disruptive fire failed to disrupt.

You should have tried copying one of our avatars and changing your signature line to one of ours. That might have worked.

Now, why did that pop into my head? I'm sure I Will figure it out.

[urysohn]

It's not a quadrant. The first column is the initials of the owner of the battleship. The next 4 columns are whose salvos hit them.
Ah yes, right. Of course it was. Move along, move along!

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I voted Will Durant. Does anyone else wish to discuss their vote?
Assuming that I wasn't one of the votes not announced, I suppose I did vote for Will Durant.

Anyone care to discuss their vote after the fact?

[cubedbee]

Ek's right...I had a secret alliance with Patterns and was so absentminded that I accidently posted it to the game thread.

I voted for EK in this tribal council, but that's only because he told me to. I'm assuming its because he doesn't want people to think that every single player is under his thumb.

[4sigma]

I have learned that the mole is secretly in alliance with EB. To counter this, I am hereby formally offering to form an alliance with snafu.

[snafu]

I have learned that the mole is secretly in alliance with EB. To counter this, I am hereby formally offering to form an alliance with snafu.

Would that be the super secret alliance we discussed last week? :D

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I voted for EK in this tribal council, but that's only because he told me to. I'm assuming its because he doesn't want people to think that every single player is under his thumb.
:-? But if you did what I told you to do, aren’t you under my thumb?

As I told BC, I didn’t want anyone voting for me “trying to rouse the rabble” unless that was according to their plan. It doesn’t strike me as wise to have people pretending to dangle a knife behind my back. However, if I were to want such a thing done, going public with it does seem like me.

Does anyone else wish to discuss their vote? :D Inquiring minds want to know.

BC, since you claim all the participants should know and since you later told me, would you care to discuss what you attempted to do this past round with the viewing public, who is at least urysohn, 4sigma, Gandalf, E Blackadder, snafu, the mole, and former participants?

[the mole]

I voted for EK in this tribal council, but that's only because he told me to. I'm assuming its because he doesn't want people to think that every single player is under his thumb.
:-? But if you did what I told you to do, aren’t you under my thumb?Of course he is. He's assuming that you don't want everyone to realize he is.
BC, since you claim all the participants should know and since you later told me, would you care to discuss what you attempted to do this past round with the viewing public, who is at least urysohn, 4sigma, Gandalf, E Blackadder, snafu, the mole, and former participants?
EK, I trust that you properly recounted to me what BC told you. Why don't you just tell the rest of the viewing public?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Of course he is. He's assuming that you don't want everyone to realize he is.
Yes, I see now.

EK, I trust that you properly recounted to me what BC told you. Why don't you just tell the rest of the viewing public?
I could but I think it would be more entertaining coming from BC. Besides, he has firsthand knowledge, where I only found out after the fact.

[BC]

Simply put, I tried to get you voted off instead of Will Durant.

I failed.

[J.T.]

Will 4sigma and the mole come together to create a powerhouse division, i.e. the outcasts that never were, or will they continue to bother us for the rest of the game?

[the mole]

While I am not prepared at this time to comment upon the nature of any alliance I may have with 4sigma, I must say that I am deeply hurt at the implication that I am a bother. If you must know, I have been on tonight posting on behalf of two of my allies, both of whom have now secured advancement to R9C2. If more people had trusted me, they too could have advanced while enjoying a good night's sleep.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

they too could have advanced while enjoying a good night's sleep.
:swear: I haven't had coffee!!! :sleep2:

[J.T.]

While I am not prepared at this time to comment upon the nature of any alliance I may have with 4sigma, I must say that I am deeply hurt at the implication that I am a bother. If you must know, I have been on tonight posting on behalf of two of my allies, both of whom have now secured advancement to R9C2. If more people had trusted me, they too could have advanced while enjoying a good night's sleep.

That's not fair....I asked you and you turned me down... :swear:

[the mole]

I felt terrible about that, since you've never turned me down. :o

The trust was there between us, but the offer was limited to my allies, and so far you have not joined the alliance.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I see a potential conflict of interest in the peanut gallery. Let me explain.

Axiom: Nobody in their right mind would show up for the Night Owl challenge without good reason.

:swear: Give credit where due: 4Sigma and I were in the top 6. Hagbard and EK qualify for the next round since Siggy and I aren't players, but we showed them who's best.

Obviously we had two extra numbnuts posting in these threads in the wee hours of the night. Why?! It couldn’t be more obvious.

West Coast bias!!!!
Central: Too late to stay up... Too early to get up
I could have used another hour of sleep. :sleep2:

That's why you set the alarm....get up and post, then go back to sleep....

J.T. setting an alarm is the tip-off. My initial thought was whoever she was sleeping with would be highly upset by this lackadaisical attitude about waking him up in the middle of the night. Think about it….

There were TWO WOMEN that participated late at night. There were TWO MEN that also participated as non-players.

I've gotten a few PMs on this, so I would like to clarify:
aces219 is now sleeping at home, but she will still be naked, according to my sources.
Good questions!
Your sources were correct, regarding the time she was in bed.

Therefore, the mole matches up with aces219. Would you like further evidence?

While I am not prepared at this time to comment upon the nature of any alliance I may have with 4sigma, I must say that I am deeply hurt at the implication that I am a bother. If you must know, I have been on tonight posting on behalf of two of my allies, both of whom have now secured advancement to R9C2. If more people had trusted me, they too could have advanced while enjoying a good night's sleep.

That's not fair....I asked you and you turned me down... :swear:

Therefore the obvious conclusion is that J.T.’s alarm woke 4sigma up.

[J.T.]

I see a potential conflict of interest in the peanut gallery. Let me explain.

Axiom: Nobody in their right mind would show up for the Night Owl challenge without good reason.

:swear: Give credit where due: 4Sigma and I were in the top 6. Hagbard and EK qualify for the next round since Siggy and I aren't players, but we showed them who's best.

Obviously we had two extra numbnuts posting in these threads in the wee hours of the night. Why?! It couldn’t be more obvious.

West Coast bias!!!!
Central: Too late to stay up... Too early to get up
I could have used another hour of sleep. :sleep2:

That's why you set the alarm....get up and post, then go back to sleep....

J.T. setting an alarm is the tip-off. My initial thought was whoever she was sleeping with would be highly upset by this lackadaisical attitude about waking him up in the middle of the night. Think about it….

There were TWO WOMEN that participated late at night. There were TWO MEN that also participated as non-players.

I've gotten a few PMs on this, so I would like to clarify:
aces219 is now sleeping at home, but she will still be naked, according to my sources.
Good questions!
Your sources were correct, regarding the time she was in bed.

Therefore, the mole matches up with aces219. Would you like further evidence?

While I am not prepared at this time to comment upon the nature of any alliance I may have with 4sigma, I must say that I am deeply hurt at the implication that I am a bother. If you must know, I have been on tonight posting on behalf of two of my allies, both of whom have now secured advancement to R9C2. If more people had trusted me, they too could have advanced while enjoying a good night's sleep.

That's not fair....I asked you and you turned me down... :swear:

Therefore the obvious conclusion is that J.T.’s alarm woke 4sigma up.

:lol:

Yea, my husband was a little mad, but he went back to sleep. I think he thought me more nuts than being mad at me. He asked me when I came back to bed if I won. What a sweet guy!

[urysohn]

I'm curious, because a lot more people showed up for this morning's Challenge than I thought would be the case...did any of you discuss banding together and agreeing not to show?
Personally, I would have sent 9 PMs -- "who wants to agree the Challenge actually starts at 9:00a ET instead of 4:00a ET?"
You'll note that the Challenge officially stopped at 11:00a ET, way more time than anyone would actually need if the majority played at the scheduled time.
Just curious -- half the reason for the timing was to see how you would all play it. As the mole might appreciate, there was plenty of opportunity for Trust in this Challenge. And to outward appearances, nobody took advantage of it.
Was Immunity so important this time? If so, does that mean anything? Was the opportunity presented and turned down? Was it just that nobody thought to make the offer? Is mistrust among factions so rampant that nobody could trust anyone else?

[Ebenezer Kohl]

I like when people answer these questions so let me take a stab.
did any of you discuss banding together and agreeing not to show?
No, I didn’t discuss this with anyone. I assumed that others weren’t going to be willing to get up that early. I was surprised that I wasn’t first on the scene this morning.
Was Immunity so important this time?
Winning the immunity personally is not important.
If so, does that mean anything?
Even without immediate strategy implication, winning challenges always means something to pride as well as intimidation.
Was the opportunity presented and turned down? Was it just that nobody thought to make the offer?
As far as I know, there was no such offer.
Is mistrust among factions so rampant that nobody could trust anyone else?
I don’t think mistrust played a role here.

Does anyone else wish to share?

[Hagbard Celine]

I thought about sending a similar PM, but decided there's no way I could trust people.

Then I decided no one in their right mind would wake up that early to participate in this challenge, so I thought we had all come to an uspoken agreement not to participate until a reasonable hour. :D

[the mole]

Personally, I would have sent 9 PMs -- "who wants to agree the Challenge actually starts at 9:00a ET instead of 4:00a ET?"
Interesting. Nine players left, yet had urysohn been one of the 9 he would still have sent 9 PMs seeking agreement. I did not expect such a clear statement from the person running this game of my importance to any challenge.

[urysohn]

Personally, I would have sent 9 PMs -- "who wants to agree the Challenge actually starts at 9:00a ET instead of 4:00a ET?"
Interesting. Nine players left, yet had urysohn been one of the 9 he would still have sent 9 PMs seeking agreement. I did not expect such a clear statement from the person running this game of my importance to any challenge.
Whoops :D I still would have sent nine, probably...one of them would have been to me, "are you freaking crazy?!? Ain't no way I'm getting up that early!!"
;)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

:D I responded to a PM that 4sigma sent me last night and he still hasn't picked it up.

Is someone a wittle sweepy? :lol: ;)

[aces219]

I didn't get home until 12:45. Watched the Olympics for a while, fell asleep on the couch, then woke up and played the challenge. I was highly irrational and distraught yesterday evening so it's not like I was going to sleep well anyway. Nothing like picking a fight.

I don't get to work early, ever, so I figured I would be at a huge disadvantage compared to the East Coasters if I waited until the morning.

I'm a loyal Starbucks customer.

[Gandalf]

Therefore the obvious conclusion is that J.T.’s alarm woke 4sigma up.

:D I responded to a PM that 4sigma sent me last night and he still hasn't picked it up.

Is someone a wittle sweepy? :lol: ;)
Wouldn't you be?

[Will Durant]

Simply put, I tried to get you voted off instead of Will Durant.
Hey, I voted for EK w/o even knowing that was actually the plan.

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Therefore the obvious conclusion is that J.T.’s alarm woke 4sigma up.

:D I responded to a PM that 4sigma sent me last night and he still hasn't picked it up.

Is someone a wittle sweepy? :lol: ;)
Wouldn't you be?
He still hasn’t picked up my PM. 4sigma must be tuckered out.

[Gandalf]

Maybe you should send the PM to J.T., and ask her to read it to him.

[4sigma]

Some of us have a day job and don't check our RF PMs the FIRST thing in the morning.

But yes, I was up a bit late last night. :)

[Ebenezer Kohl]

Look what the cat dragged in... I mean J.T., not aces219. :lol: