7 card hi / lo

[MNBridge]

Does anyone ever play this game?

I find it to be very cut and dry and to be honest rather boring.
(Don't chase; make the chasers pay - try to get it so you are free rolling)

Yet I've been playing the ring games lately and can not believe the action.

Won $100 Friday night $10 / $20 (in a couple hours playing $50 NL SNG's at the same time)
Won $500 Saturday night $10 / $20 (about 4 hours)
and
Took 7th in a multi table $20 buy in today.

Have I been very lucky (I certainly don't do anything fancy when playing) or are other players really this bad?

[3rookie]

I've wondered the same thing. I would think most people don't know what good starting hands are (I'm one -- I just have a general idea so I don't play). Is the same true for Omaha hi/lo?

[MNBridge]

I don't win at Omaha and get absolutely killed when I play against people that really are good.

Omaha there is a lot more figuring out the odds for draws and everyone using the same up cards makes it much less cut and dry.

[Spidurman]

stud hi/lo is probably the most purely mathematical form of poker.

If you play nothing but premium openers and don't chase unless you're getting great odds (rare) its easy money.

I played hi/lo for basically 4 months straight and almost NEVER had a losing session on cash tables and was about 80% cash rate on sit n gos. I've won a tournament and a few final tables.

However, I started finding the game well...boring. I'm getting back into it again for strictly bankroll reasons.

I've played two sessions on 25/50 cent cash tables (again...bankroll issues are a huge factor) - I was up 15 bucks in about 75 minutes the first session, and up about 5 in 60 the second time. I also cashed one SNG (3rd) last night.

SNGs in hi/lo are extremely easy to finish top 4 or 5 depending on the table. After that, it pretty much comes down to scooping that one pot to KO someone vs chopping. Quite frankly it comes down to catching cards, but playing the right openers (totally different standard than a ring game) helps.

Personally, I'd love to see an RF game here, if only because I've played it a bit more. I know Castle has played this game as well, and quite frankly, he's damn good. I learned a few plays just watching him in one tournament.

In short - hi/lo is a great game for a player who has a grinding style and the patience to steadily win small pots and taking half of 3-way pots. If you can handle that, hi/lo is the game for you. If you want that big score, I really don't recommend it to be honest - its hard work to have a HUGE day here, but its not too difficult to string together small ones.

[Spidurman]

Starting hands in Stud Hi/Lo

The premium hands are

3 low suited connectors (the best possible)
3 lows
a pair + 2 lows (AA2)
big pairs (if you can get people to fold to strength on their draws)
straight and flush draws - especially flushes containing 2-3 low cards
rolled up trips.


David Sklansky wrote the H/L portion of Super/System, and while its a slightly different form of the game (every hand is h/l, not 8OB), one critical point still applies: "You want to win all of a pot as often as possible" - scooping pots is pure profit and is the key source of your H/L income.

[3rookie]

Thanks Spidurman!

[Castle7]

Starting hands in Stud Hi/Lo

The premium hands are

3 low suited connectors (the best possible)
3 lows
a pair + 2 lows (AA2)
big pairs (if you can get people to fold to strength on their draws)
straight and flush draws - especially flushes containing 2-3 low cards
rolled up trips.


I appreciate the shout out spidur :)

I have always said that I am a stud player at heart, and I like hi/low b/c most people don't play it very well - but to my point...

I would personally add AKx, where x<6 to your starting hands, in the right spots - but I usually fold these on 4th street if I don't like what I see.

[lawfi5h]

I found this to be easy :wink:

[win diesel]

MN, where are these 10/20 games you are playing? I've noticed on Stars there
are rarely games going. On Party/Empire I thought the antes were too high in
relation to the limit. So there it would be tough to wait for premium openers and
grind it out before getting anted to submission.

[win diesel]

I would be up for Stud 8b game next Thursday night.

[Expunge]

3 low suited connectors (the best possible)


That's poker.

[MNBridge]

MN, where are these 10/20 games you are playing? I've noticed on Stars there
are rarely games going. On Party/Empire I thought the antes were too high in
relation to the limit. So there it would be tough to wait for premium openers and
grind it out before getting anted to submission.

Weekend nights on PP. Seldom going any other time.

[Spidurman]

Stars its generally take what you can get, which isn't much at middle-high limits. Anything over 0.50/1.00 is nearly impossible from what I have seen to get a good quality full game in.

30/60 is often going, but that's it.

[Happy Extinction]

Fun game

[Spidurman]

Hands like this are why I love poker. I played terrible poker for 3 hours - hit one perfect hand at the perfect time, and placed top 30 in a 500 person multi.

*********** # 93 **************
PokerStars Game #615323377: Tournament #2293713, 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit - Level VIII (300/600) - 2004/08/14 - 14:25:19 (ET)
Table '2293713 16'
Seat 1: kableguy (5889 in chips)
Seat 2: alcotton (7217 in chips)
Seat 3: marmas (2615 in chips)
Seat 4: Spidurman (2881 in chips)
Seat 5: Sunshine37 (748 in chips)
Seat 6: chris2578 (3988 in chips)
Seat 7: Kalugin (7640 in chips)
Seat 8: loriso2000 (9162 in chips) is sitting out
kableguy: posts the ante 50
alcotton: posts the ante 50
marmas: posts the ante 50
Spidurman: posts the ante 50
Sunshine37: posts the ante 50
chris2578: posts the ante 50
Kalugin: posts the ante 50
loriso2000: posts the ante 50
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to kableguy [2h]
Dealt to alcotton [8h]
Dealt to marmas [8s]
Dealt to Spidurman [6c 5c 4c]
Dealt to Sunshine37 [2s]
Dealt to chris2578 [Th]
Dealt to Kalugin [7d]
Dealt to loriso2000 [3d]
kableguy: bets 300
alcotton: folds
marmas: calls 300
Spidurman: calls 300
Sunshine37: calls 300
chris2578: calls 300
Kalugin: folds
loriso2000: folds
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to kableguy [2h] [7h]
Dealt to marmas [8s] [8d]
Dealt to Spidurman [6c 5c 4c] [7c]
Dealt to Sunshine37 [2s] [Js]
Dealt to chris2578 [Th] [6d]
marmas: checks
Spidurman: bets 300
Sunshine37: calls 300
chris2578: calls 300
kableguy: calls 300
marmas: calls 300
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to kableguy [2h 7h] [Ts]
Dealt to marmas [8s 8d] [Ah]
Dealt to Spidurman [6c 5c 4c 7c] [Jh]
Dealt to Sunshine37 [2s Js] [9c]
Dealt to chris2578 [Th 6d] [Td]
chris2578: checks
kableguy: checks
marmas: bets 600
Spidurman: calls 600
Sunshine37: calls 98 and is all-in
chris2578: calls 600
kableguy: calls 600
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to kableguy [2h 7h Ts] [8c]
Dealt to marmas [8s 8d Ah] [4h]
Dealt to Spidurman [6c 5c 4c 7c Jh] [Qh]
Dealt to Sunshine37 [2s Js 9c] [5h]
Dealt to chris2578 [Th 6d Td] [9h]
chris2578: checks
kableguy: checks
marmas: bets 600
Spidurman: calls 600
chris2578: calls 600
kableguy: calls 600
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Spidurman [6c 5c 4c 7c Jh Qh] [3c]
chris2578: checks
kableguy: checks
marmas: bets 600
Spidurman: raises 431 to 1031 and is all-in
chris2578: folds
kableguy: calls 1031
marmas: calls 165 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
[b]Spidurman: shows [6c 5c 4c 7c Jh Qh 3c] (HI: a straight flush, Three to Seven; LO: 7,6,5,4,3)[/b]
kableguy: shows [Ac 4d 2h 7h Ts 8c 7s] (HI: a pair of Sevens; LO: 8,7,4,2,A)
Spidurman collected 266 from side pot-2
Spidurman collected 266 from side pot-2
marmas: shows [3s As 8s 8d Ah 4h 5s] (HI: two pair, Aces and Eights; LO: 8,5,4,3,A)
Spidurman collected 3352 from side pot-1
Spidurman collected 3351 from side pot-1
Sunshine37: shows [Qs 6s 2s Js 9c 5h 2d] (HI: a pair of Deuces)
Spidurman collected 1945 from main pot
Spidurman collected 1945 from main pot
ZYGOTO is connected
dragonlady15 is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11125 Main pot 3890. Side pot-1 6703. Side pot-2 532. | Rake 0
Seat 1: kableguy showed [Ac 4d 2h 7h Ts 8c 7s] and lost with HI: a pair of Sevens; LO: 8,7,4,2,A
Seat 2: alcotton folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: marmas showed [3s As 8s 8d Ah 4h 5s] and lost with HI: two pair, Aces and Eights; LO: 8,5,4,3,A
Seat 4: Spidurman showed [6c 5c 4c 7c Jh Qh 3c] and won (11125) with HI: a straight flush, Three to Seven; LO: 7,6,5,4,3
Seat 5: Sunshine37 showed [Qs 6s 2s Js 9c 5h 2d] and lost with HI: a pair of Deuces
Seat 6: chris2578 folded on the River
Seat 7: Kalugin folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: loriso2000 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

[Happy Skunk]

Very Nice.

Do you ever play 3 low cards rainbow. 246 rainbow?

Do you every play medium pairs like - 99J?

[Spidurman]

I'll play 3 cards to a 6 or 7 low in 95% of situations.

Medium pairs - depends on the other 7 cards I see, position, and what happens before me.

[MNBridge]

I played quite a bit hi/lo this weekend (nicely profitable but still didn't make up for my hold'em losses ugh!)

Pre flop strategy:

Starting hands:

Pair higher than any card on board (I always complete / raise)

Aces (always complete / raise)

3 suited connectors all low (call anything)

High pairs (I generally complete then fold if a higher card comes in or an ace raises) -- The ace will usually act first on 4th street and you can often get a feel for if he has low or aces based on 4th street. -- I often raise if the ace catches high then fold if he reraises or bets 5th street.

small pair and a low (I have started to fold this unless I can get in cheap - bet not completed - or there is a lot of action)

3 low cards with an ace (call unless raised)

3 low cards (junky) ie. 832, call if bet not completed else fold. Fold if it's just me and an ace that it looks like will play.

Rolled up trips -- This is the ONLY hand I slowplay.

I do not play: 3 card flushes or 3 card straights, will play 3 card straight flushes.

As can be seen I rarely to never bet on a draw and almost always bet when a low hand can not yet be made and I have a pair.

General rules:
Try to lose as little as possible on hands that either aren't going anywhere or only have a chance at half the pot.
Try to scoop.
Figure out who the bad players are and don't lose pots to the good players (try to avoid confrontations with them)
So if I have 8754 then a King hits on 5th street I'm gone.

[Spidurman]

pretty much the same gameplan as mine MN

Just a couple situations that aren't mentioned that I think are very profitable:

*Starting with 3 suited cards - 2 to a wheel and an over. This gives two strong draws on 4th street - and if one or both connects there, you can be in the lead for a nice pot.

*Low draws - I'll bet/raise if I have people board-locked and think I can drive out a weak draw.

[MNBridge]

pretty much the same gameplan as mine MN

Just a couple situations that aren't mentioned that I think are very profitable:

*Starting with 3 suited cards - 2 to a wheel and an over. This gives two strong draws on 4th street - and if one or both connects there, you can be in the lead for a nice pot.

*Low draws - I'll bet/raise if I have people board-locked and think I can drive out a weak draw.

The first -- 2 to a wheel suited -- Do you always play this and which card do you prefer to have up?

I will bet low draws on 4th street after that I don't unless I hit. Played with twodimes.net a little this weekend and decided that play made sense.

Should have noted I will bet low draws against what appears to be a worse low draw (Especially if I have an ace)

[Castle7]

pretty much the same gameplan as mine MN

Just a couple situations that aren't mentioned that I think are very profitable:

*Starting with 3 suited cards - 2 to a wheel and an over. This gives two strong draws on 4th street - and if one or both connects there, you can be in the lead for a nice pot.

*Low draws - I'll bet/raise if I have people board-locked and think I can drive out a weak draw.

The first -- 2 to a wheel suited -- Do you always play this and which card do you prefer to have up?

I will bet low draws on 4th street after that I don't unless I hit. Played with twodimes.net a little this weekend and decided that play made sense.

The overcard - I like to win the whole pot on 4th or 5th street with aggression by raising with an Ace showing, and K2 in the hole on 3rd street, then come out firing when A/K hits on 4th/5th street, and if you start catching babies, that's fine too.

Don't always play it - depends on the action/players in the hand.

[Spidurman]

Any upcard can work in the right situations - its a play that I prefer to check/call with until fifth street. Helps to disguise the hand somewhat.

I'll bet 4 cards to a 6 high on 5th street (or 4 to a wheel) - especially with a straight draw in the mix. This is a huge scoop potential hand against most any hand - and has protection against most hands and combinations of hands that you'll be facing, with any danger pretty obvious. I'm willing to attack and gamble more when I have a good shot at a scoop in a sit. like this.

[Castle7]

Any upcard can work in the right situations - its a play that I prefer to check/call with until fifth street. Helps to disguise the hand somewhat.

I'll bet 4 cards to a 6 high on 5th street (or 4 to a wheel) - especially with a straight draw in the mix. This is a huge scoop potential hand against most any hand - and has protection against most hands and combinations of hands that you'll be facing, with any danger pretty obvious. I'm willing to attack and gamble more when I have a good shot at a scoop in a sit. like this.

Spidurman can vouch that I am prolly a bit over-aggressive in H/L split though :D "Get out of MY pot!" That's pretty much my betting strategy.

[MNBridge]

Result
2686320 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=451946
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 2c 3s 4d 6h tc - kh kd js 9d 3d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
3s Tc 2c 4d 6h 113775 113775 386225 0 311615 0 0 0.453
Js Kd 9d 3d Kh 160672 386225 113775 0 0 0 0 0.547

[Castle7]

Result
2686320 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=451946
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 2c 3s 4d 6h tc - kh kd js 9d 3d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
3s Tc 2c 4d 6h 113775 113775 386225 0 311615 0 0 0.453
Js Kd 9d 3d Kh 160672 386225 113775 0 0 0 0 0.547


Yes - but take into account you are not going to pay off the final bet if you miss everything, but your opponent almost has to call down (assuming he came that far knowing he has no shot at low). I think the ability to outplay your opponent increases your EV here.

[Spidurman]

Spidurman can vouch that I am prolly a bit over-aggressive in H/L split though :D "Get out of MY pot!" That's pretty much my betting strategy.

I mix it up - I'm loathe to give a free card in a positive EV situation, though I prefer to check-call for awhile and then bet/raise late and try to take it down.

I am liable to do almost anything, hi/lo is probably the game where I have the most plays available that I really understand and can use.

[jingle47]

pardon my ignorance but is stud Down Down UP UP UP Down UP?

[Spidurman]

D D U U U U D

Single bets on 3rd and 4th street (first two exposed cards)
Double bets on the last three rounds (twice the 3/4 bet)

[MNBridge]

More odds

If you start with 3 low and none of your cards for low are out on the board you have approx a 59% of getting low.

It goes down 4% for every card out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your 4th card is not a low and none of your cards are out (assuming 7 cards this isn't quite right)

Your chance at low falls to 42% and drop by about 3% for each low card out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your 4th card is a low and none of your cards are out (assuming 7 cards this isn't quite right)

Your odds improve to 79% and drop 3% for each low card you could use.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your 4 out of 5 cards are low and none of your cards are out (assuming 7 cards this isn't quite right)

Your odds are 64.5% to get a low and drop 3% for each low card you could use that is out.

[Hummer]

Good discussion MN & spidur.

When you approach a hand, should your objective be to win both ends? If you are after an obvious low, should you only proceed if it is a multiway pot? Are these questions too simplistic in nature?

[Spidurman]

To paraphrase Sklansky from the high/low split section of Super System - your goal is to win all every pot you enter.

My realistic goal is to consistently win 1/2 of a three way (or more) pot. If you think about that - its pretty damn cool. If you are a lock for 1/2 of the pot and its three handed and being raised - you will win $1.50 for every single $1 that you put in. Pots like that are pretty common, its just a question of maximizing the number of bets you collect.

[MNBridge]

Good discussion MN & spidur.

When you approach a hand, should your objective be to win both ends? If you are after an obvious low, should you only proceed if it is a multiway pot? Are these questions too simplistic in nature?

If you are after an obvious low the question becomes is it worth it to get 1/2 the $'s that are already in the pot.
Exactly when that is worthwhile or not is something I'm trying to really pin down and I think the little odds table above will get me there if I spend some time with it.
PS. getting in these situations sucks as every new dollar you are putting in you are hoping to just get it back. But it does happen

The beautiful thing about this game is it is very simplistic and a few very general rules will make you a + player in most games. I think with a little work I could make that number very positive. (i.e. When to chase v not) I was amazed at how much of a difference it makes when one of your outs is gone for low.

Last night the very first hand I get dealt 245 suited YES!! There are 4 players and the pot is completed raised and reraised ($30).
4th street I get that oh so beautiful Ace and the next best low is a 7.
Betting is capped still 4 players (with me only calling at any point) ($40)
5th street a 9 -- Ugh! Betting is once again capped and NO ONE has 3 low cards showing :o ($80) - Still 4 players.
6th street is J. -- Oh Oh -- There is a bet and a raise. ($40) Down to 3 of us.
7th street is a A -- :shake: (Fold)

High hand wins with 2 pair Q's up
Low hand wins with a 7,6 low THAT he caught on the river!

Not a good start -$210 after one hand! But could see this would be a juicy table and still ended up $44 after 1 hour of play.

[jingle47]

By the way, thanks for the discussion guys. I sat down at 7 stud multi table tourney last night and got like 40th out of 207. I was in top 3 for about 45 minutes and then started getting bored like you talked about and jumped in where I should not have. But for $5 it was well worth the education, I see the potential for some good money here though.

[Castle7]

Good discussion MN & spidur.

When you approach a hand, should your objective be to win both ends? If you are after an obvious low, should you only proceed if it is a multiway pot? Are these questions too simplistic in nature?

Well I can see where I am not wanted! :crazy:

[DblDownTrent]

Good discussion MN & spidur.

When you approach a hand, should your objective be to win both ends? If you are after an obvious low, should you only proceed if it is a multiway pot? Are these questions too simplistic in nature?

Well I can see where I am not wanted! :crazy:

This is one of the best poker discussions I've seen on the RF, included you're comments Castle. I'm not playing stud H/L yet, but may try it out soon (still trying out low limit Omaha H/L PL SnGs) - and when I do, I'll be sure to read up on this thread before I begin my play. Very informative.

[Castle7]

I do not play: 3 card flushes or 3 card straights, will play 3 card straight flushes.


Huh? I think you need to loosen up a bit here MN. I will not play a gutter ball, but I would certainly see 4th street with QJT. Plus, with the right flush draw, you can look like you are playing low and bet the other low draws out or they keep your pot building (either is good), and hope to scoop with the flush....(did I mention I am aggressive?) :D

[Spidurman]

Just a note about the texture of a game on the early bets.

If a game is very aggressive (Completed bet on 3rd, and 1-2 on 4th normal) - I tend to play very tight and not pay to draw marginally.

If a game is weak-tight (can be common at low limits) - defined as bring-in not raised on 3rd and occasional 4th street bets - you can play almost anything. If 3rd street isn't completed and there's a single bet on 4th - you are still able to see 5th street and clearly define your hand for the cost of less than one big bet. You are drawing 2 cards for nearly free. Please note that this does not work with an aggressive player in the pot - and you'll be folding ALOT to either a scare on 4th (they hit good and bet, you hit a blank) or giving up on 5th as it just isn't worth it.

Just something else to chew on....and this really helps my game to post as it forces me to think through the strategy clearly enough to explain it. What will require experience from ya'll is that I've played at least 15,000 hands and have a sense of what works and when.

Its a great game though - tends to be profitable while driving me mad. I can easily see why Lederer and Cloutier love razz since drawing low is easily the most aggravating part of poker that I have ever seen.

[MNBridge]

I do not play: 3 card flushes or 3 card straights, will play 3 card straight flushes.


Huh? I think you need to loosen up a bit here MN. I will not play a gutter ball, but I would certainly see 4th street with QJT. Plus, with the right flush draw, you can look like you are playing low and bet the other low draws out or they keep your pot building (either is good), and hope to scoop with the flush....(did I mention I am aggressive?) :D

Not so sure I agree 4th street has to look nice for me to continue AND the other player has to catch bad or I'm in trouble.

It might be a positive expected value to come in with these hands but it will also move up my variance. I have found the games to be so soft that I don't need to play marginal hands.

What are the odds of hitting a flush by street starting with 3 card flushes? If this turns out to be worthwhile I may change my tune.

[Castle7]

I do not play: 3 card flushes or 3 card straights, will play 3 card straight flushes.


Huh? I think you need to loosen up a bit here MN. I will not play a gutter ball, but I would certainly see 4th street with QJT. Plus, with the right flush draw, you can look like you are playing low and bet the other low draws out or they keep your pot building (either is good), and hope to scoop with the flush....(did I mention I am aggressive?) :D

Not so sure I agree 4th street has to look nice for me to continue AND the other player has to catch bad or I'm in trouble.

It might be a positive expected value to come in with these hands but it will also move up my variance. I have found the games to be so soft that I don't need to play marginal hands.

What are the odds of hitting a flush by street starting with 3 card flushes? If this turns out to be worthwhile I may change my tune.

As someone who obviously reads Sklansky, I can't believe you care about variance over positive EV. So you have more variance, but at the end of the day you have more MONEY! Odds of hitting a flush starting 4flush I believe is just about 50/50, I don't remember others (which is sad for an ol' stud player :oops: )

[Spidurman]

all the odds are in ToP - I'll find em tonight.

[MNBridge]

I also don't generally bluff at 7 card hi / lo or try to buy pots. The reason for this is in the games I've found online people are willing to chase which makes these bets worthless (and the game much better :D )

I would think that to improve the profitability of QJT you would need to bluff at times to maximize it's profitability.

Are most of your games multi way action?
In the game I play it is usually down to 2 or 3 if the bet is completed preflop and possibly 4 or rarely 5 when it's not.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454116
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh td - 7s ac 4d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Td Qh Jh 123953 304728 195216 56 0 0 0 0.429
7s Ac 4d 195216 195216 304728 56 263440 0 0 0.571

7.34725143034122e+18 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454118
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh td - 7s ac 4d - 2s 4h 6c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Td Qh Jh 53982 259530 240436 34 0 0 0 0.314
7s Ac 4d 78201 127782 372106 112 179539 69410 1071 0.350
2s 6c 4h 73616 112575 387345 80 197297 51769 1071 0.337

Even in multiway action this hand scoops the least often (and has a negative EV)
and really is a underdog in heads up when the other player has an ace.

NOW give me a flush draw as well And
7.34725143034122e+18 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454130
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh th - 7s ac 4d - 2s 4h 6c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Qh Jh Th 64693 299010 200959 31 0 0 0 0.364
7s Ac 4d 65582 107151 392745 104 179399 69734 1147 0.322
2s 6c 4h 61605 93733 406190 77 197529 51387 1147 0.314

OK now but still nothing to write home about.

And still a dog heads up.

Result
10520811100800 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454134
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh th - 7s ac 4d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Qh Jh Th 143900 341535 158416 49 0 0 0 0.485
7s Ac 4d 158416 158416 341535 49 263892 0 0 0.515

[Castle7]

I also don't generally bluff at 7 card hi / lo or try to buy pots. The reason for this is in the games I've found online people are willing to chase which makes these bets worthless (and the game much better :D )

I would think that to improve the profitability of QJT you would need to bluff at times to maximize it's profitability.

Are most of your games multi way action?
In the game I play it is usually down to 2 or 3 if the bet is completed preflop and possibly 4 or rarely 5 when it's not.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454116
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh td - 7s ac 4d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Td Qh Jh 123953 304728 195216 56 0 0 0 0.429
7s Ac 4d 195216 195216 304728 56 263440 0 0 0.571

7.34725143034122e+18 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454118
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh td - 7s ac 4d - 2s 4h 6c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Td Qh Jh 53982 259530 240436 34 0 0 0 0.314
7s Ac 4d 78201 127782 372106 112 179539 69410 1071 0.350
2s 6c 4h 73616 112575 387345 80 197297 51769 1071 0.337

Even in multiway action this hand scoops the least often (and has a negative EV)
and really is a underdog in heads up when the other player has an ace.

NOW give me a flush draw as well And
7.34725143034122e+18 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454130
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh th - 7s ac 4d - 2s 4h 6c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Qh Jh Th 64693 299010 200959 31 0 0 0 0.364
7s Ac 4d 65582 107151 392745 104 179399 69734 1147 0.322
2s 6c 4h 61605 93733 406190 77 197529 51387 1147 0.314

OK now but still nothing to write home about.

And still a dog heads up.

Result
10520811100800 samples required, using 500,000 sample simulation.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=454134
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 qh jh th - 7s ac 4d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Qh Jh Th 143900 341535 158416 49 0 0 0 0.485
7s Ac 4d 158416 158416 341535 49 263892 0 0 0.515

Again I say that you have to look at this more dynamically than odds of everyone playing to the river. Of course, if you don't hit an open ended straight on 4th street or possibly a big pair, bigger than other upcards, you muck. So you have to adjust your odds because obviously QJT is not a hand you go chasing to the river very often. You hit something on 4th street, or get out...and if there is a lot of raising on 3rd street, yes, lay it down.

[MNBridge]

The comment you make about going to the river is exactly the goal I am trying to find through some sort of analytical approach. (This is no where yet)

For example:
Say we play a game where it costs $1 for the first card $2 for the next $3 for the next and $4 for the last. I start with QQJ and know that I need to have 2 pair to win.
i also know my opp wll bet all the way through (and he bets last and will call if I bet) -- No check raising allowed.
How should I play?

I'm thinking with 7 stud it would be doable to make up scenarios like this and see how they should be played.

[MNBridge]

I LOVE this game!

+35 BB in 15 minutes while GF washed her face to get ready for bed. I know I'm sick and addicted.

***** Hand History for Game 854807809 *****
10/20 SevenStudHiLoGameTable (Limit) - Tue Aug 17 22:34:47 EDT 2004
Table Table 12875 (Real Money)
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: geezus ( $532)
Seat 2: roadwarrior9 ( $309)
Seat 3: BilldaCat ( $493.50)
Seat 4: poppyrocks ( $134)
Seat 5: MNpoker2896 ( $411.50)
Seat 6: BALDACCI ( $1123)
Seat 7: butwin_2 ( $500)
Seat 8: pattpatt ( $419)
** Dealing **
Dealt to geezus [ 2d ]
Dealt to roadwarrior9 [ 6h ]
Dealt to BilldaCat [ 4d ]
Dealt to poppyrocks [ Tc ]
Dealt to MNpoker2896 [ Jd, Ah ]
Dealt to MNpoker2896 [ As ]
Dealt to BALDACCI [ 3d ]
Dealt to pattpatt [ 4c ]
geezus bring-ins (3)
roadwarrior9 calls (3)
BilldaCat calls (3)
poppyrocks folds.
MNpoker2896 completes (10)
BALDACCI folds.
pattpatt calls (10)
geezus folds.
roadwarrior9 calls (7)
BilldaCat calls (7)
** Dealing Fourth street **
Dealt to roadwarrior9 [ 6s ]
Dealt to BilldaCat [ Td ]
Dealt to MNpoker2896 [ Jc ]
Dealt to pattpatt [ 7h ]
roadwarrior9 bets (10)
BilldaCat calls (10)
MNpoker2896 raises (20) to 20
pattpatt calls (20)
roadwarrior9 calls (10)
BilldaCat raises (20) to 30
MNpoker2896 calls (10)
pattpatt calls (10)
roadwarrior9 raises (20) to 40
BilldaCat calls (10)
MNpoker2896 calls (10)
pattpatt calls (10)
** Dealing Fifth street **
Dealt to roadwarrior9 [ 5d ]
Dealt to BilldaCat [ 7c ]
Dealt to MNpoker2896 [ Kc ]
Dealt to pattpatt [ 4h ]
roadwarrior9 bets (20)
BilldaCat calls (20)
MNpoker2896 calls (20)
pattpatt calls (20)
** Dealing Sixth street **
Dealt to roadwarrior9 [ 2s ]
Dealt to BilldaCat [ 8h ]
Dealt to MNpoker2896 [ Jh ]
Dealt to pattpatt [ 9c ]
MNpoker2896 checks.
pattpatt checks.
roadwarrior9 bets (20)
BilldaCat: cmon diamond
BilldaCat calls (20)
MNpoker2896 raises (40) to 40
pattpatt calls (40)
roadwarrior9 raises (40) to 60
BilldaCat raises (60) to 80
MNpoker2896 calls (40)
pattpatt calls (40)
roadwarrior9 calls (20)
** Dealing River **
Dealt to MNpoker2896 [ 9h ]
MNpoker2896 bets (20)
pattpatt calls (20)
roadwarrior9 calls (20)
BilldaCat folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: $667 | Rake: $3
geezus balance $528, lost $4 (folded) [ XX XX 2d ]
roadwarrior9 balance $138, lost $171 [ 6c 7s 6h 6s 5d 2s Ks ] [ three of a kind, sixes -- Ks,7s,6c,6h,6s ]
BilldaCat balance $342.50, lost $151 (folded) [ XX XX 4d Td 7c 8h XX ]
poppyrocks balance $133, lost $1 (folded) [ XX XX Tc ]
MNpoker2896 balance $907.50, bet $171, collected $667, net +$496 [ Jd Ah As Jc Kc Jh 9h ] [ a full house, Jacks full of aces -- Ah,As,Jd,Jc,Jh ]
BALDACCI balance $1122, lost $1 (folded) [ XX XX 3d ]
pattpatt balance $248, lost $171 [ 4s 5s 4c 7h 4h 9c 3c ] [ three of a kind, fours -- 9c,7h,4s,4c,4h ]

[Hummer]

Awesome! Too bad the one of the trips didn't fill up too. Then betting would have been capped again on the river, with the other poor trips along for the ride.