liveblogging the 2nd and 3rd debates.

[The Waiting Hurts]

Most of the tax cuts went to rich and richer income Americans.
Does that make it better?

[John F. Kennedy]

let's mix and match taxes and other costs! don't let that mess get on the floor!

[American Psycho]

Kerry appears not to have tried to bait GWB to anger. Since this worked (some) for Kerry in the first debates, why has he not tired?

[American Psycho]

Most of the tax cuts went to rich and richer income Americans.
Does that make it better?

Thanks. That's a little clearer.

[Tim><]

4,000 illegal immigrants a day? 1.5 million a year? 6 million over the course of the Bush administration? Wow, what a bunch of bullshit!

[The Waiting Hurts]

What the H...E...double hockey sticks is this man talking about. First he says that he will give me a chance to go back to college, a community college, for my job, that I went to school for 4 years to get, which was shipped across seas. Now, he's willing to give someone from Mexico (his words not mine) a temporary employment card to fill the job that isn't filled here in the States b/c there isn't a willing American to do the job.
Hello....out of work American! :wave:

Huh?

[Tim><]

What about Kerry talking about curbing outsourcing, leveling the playing field. and now talking about raising the minimum wage?

[American Psycho]

What the H...E...double hockey sticks is this man talking about. First he says that he will give me a chance to go back to college, a community college, for my job, that I went to school for 4 years to get, which was shipped across seas. Now, he's willing to give someone from Mexico (his words not mine) a temporary employment card to fill the job that isn't filled here in the States b/c there isn't a willing American to do the job.

Huh?

Actually I thought Bush's description of the temporary work card was one of his best answers. Simply outlined. Seemingly sensible.

[John F. Kennedy]

76 cents on the dollar?

[John F. Kennedy]

What the H...E...double hockey sticks is this man talking about. First he says that he will give me a chance to go back to college, a community college, for my job, that I went to school for 4 years to get, which was shipped across seas. Now, he's willing to give someone from Mexico (his words not mine) a temporary employment card to fill the job that isn't filled here in the States b/c there isn't a willing American to do the job.

Huh?
Surely you'll agree that the illegal aliens are coming here for jobs... :P

[John F. Kerry]

4,000 illegal immigrants a day? 1.5 million a year? 6 million over the course of the Bush administration? Wow, what a bunch of b***sh**!do you have a source, or just a gut feeling? Lots of people go back and forth daily, weekly, whatever.

[American Psycho]

Kerry takes pledge on Bill of Rights in his judicial appointments. Does that include the second amendment?

[John F. Kennedy]

Roe V Wade: Once made, never to be undone. Litmus test!!!

[The Waiting Hurts]

Actually I thought Bush's description of the temporary work card was one of his best answers. Simply outlined. Seemingly sensible.I agree the description makes sense, it was simplistic and I understand the point of it. But there are many people out of work here. I don't want to hear that he's going to allow someone else to come into the country to work, yet send my job across seas and put me out of work.

[American Psycho]

Bush has no litmus test for judges. Right and he will appoint a pro-choice judge? Right, and the tooth fairy ...

[Tim><]

4,000 illegal immigrants a day? 1.5 million a year? 6 million over the course of the Bush administration? Wow, what a bunch of b***sh**!do you have a source, or just a gut feeling? Lots of people go back and forth daily, weekly, whatever.Yup, the illegal immigrants are illegally returning to Mexico.

[The Waiting Hurts]

4,000 illegal immigrants a day? 1.5 million a year? 6 million over the course of the Bush administration? Wow, what a bunch of b***sh**!do you have a source, or just a gut feeling? Lots of people go back and forth daily, weekly, whatever.Yup, the illegal immigrants are illegally returning to Mexico.
:lol:

[John F. Kennedy]

Several of Reagan's appointees turned liberal. You never know what someone will do when he gets to the top.

I'll give Kerry a point for: You don't measure by increases... you measure by whether it get the job done.

[Moe Szyslak]

Kerry is smoking Bush out of his hole.

[Tim><]

:viola:

[Moe Szyslak]

Bush: But I lowered taxes!

[American Psycho]

Bush says Americans come home when Iraqi's defend themselves. Iraqification, Vietnamization, Osamfication, Obfuscation.

[The Waiting Hurts]

I feel a I served for this country coming on...

[John F. Kerry]

Roe V Wade: Once made, never to be undone. Litmus test!!!like i said, people voting on this issue have already made up their mind. i hate the way any talk about judges has to center around this stupid issue.

Bush is lying - kerry never said we need approval from other nations to defend ourselves.

[Moe Szyslak]

Bush laughed like a 4 year old a few too many times tonight, he doesn't seem sincere.

[Tim><]

He doesn't have these handy emoticons.

[John F. Kerry]

bush nailed him on the global test 1991 vote thing

[John F. Kennedy]

He nailed Kerry on the 1991 Gulf War Resolution.

[John F. Kerry]

He nailed Kerry on the 1991 Gulf War Resolution.i mentioned that

[Tim><]

Whoa! He hunted at 13 years old. Is that legal?

[The Waiting Hurts]

Hey! There's an idea...why didn't anyone think of this before...prosecute people who commit crimes with guns. Brilliant! Effin' Brilliant!

[Moe Szyslak]

Strike three, Bush is out.

[Tim><]

Why didn't he actually do anything to get the bill passed based on what he is saying? I am speaking of Kerry, of course.

[John F. Kerry]

So who's winning anyway?

[Tim><]

Moe, you planning on occassionally referencing any of the debate discussion?

[American Psycho]

Edge Kerry

[John F. Kerry]

Why didn't he actually do anything to get the bill passed based on what he is saying? I am speaking of Kerry, of course.You mean to extend the assalut weapons ban? Because the republicans wouldn't even let it come to a vote. You should know that.

[The Waiting Hurts]

Does Bush need Visine why does he blink so much?

[Tim><]

So who's winning anyway?It's pretty close in terms of the rhetoric, IMHO. Bush was full of crap WRT the tax cuts going mostly to the poor. Kerry's health plan is disingenuous.

:exams: Kerry is playing the race guard. Unbelievable. :exams:

[Tim><]

If Bush actually did have the Black Congressional Caucus, Kerry may have just blown the debate.

[John F. Kennedy]

Jee, I can't figure out why Bush didn't meet with the NAACP after becoming president. Maybe it was that nasty little ad they ran after he did meet with them as a candidate.

[American Psycho]

If Bush actually did have the Black Congressional Caucus, Kerry may have just blown the debate.Oh sure. 60 million Americans hanging on every word.

[Tim><]

If Bush actually did have the Black Congressional Caucus, Kerry may have just blown the debate.Oh sure. 60 million Americans hanging on every word.Don't think it will make the news tomorrow?

[John F. Kerry]

So who's winning anyway?It's pretty close in terms of the rhetoric, IMHO. Bush was full of crap WRT the tax cuts going mostly to the poor. Kerry's health plan is disingenuous.

:exams: Kerry is playing the race guard. Unbelievable. :exams:That's an odd typo. why is it ubelievable? i thought it was expected, because it's a winning issue for him.

[The Waiting Hurts]

What is he talking about with the praying...I zoned out.

[American Psycho]

If Bush actually did have the Black Congressional Caucus, Kerry may have just blown the debate.Oh sure. 60 million Americans hanging on every word.Don't think it will make the news tomorrow?I guess I don't since it was part of a list. But if the Republican team wants it to get coverage, I guess it will. Will anyone care?

[Moe Szyslak]

What is he talking about with the praying...I zoned out.I think he was asked about a statement he made.

[Tim><]

So who's winning anyway?It's pretty close in terms of the rhetoric, IMHO. Bush was full of crap WRT the tax cuts going mostly to the poor. Kerry's health plan is disingenuous.

:exams: Kerry is playing the race guard. Unbelievable. :exams:That's an odd typo. why is it ubelievable? i thought it was expected, because it's a winning issue for him.

I'm typing quickly. :oops:

Considering Bush's cabinet is more represented by minorities than any preceding, I find it pathetic.

[John F. Kerry]

If Bush actually did have the Black Congressional Caucus, Kerry may have just blown the debate.Oh sure. 60 million Americans hanging on every word.Don't think it will make the news tomorrow?nah, that won't matter to anyone. just like the cheney never met edwards thing.

[John F. Kennedy]

What is he talking about with the praying...I zoned out.
It's a responsive answer to the question posited.

[Jonas Grumby]

What's the score?

[Tim><]

What do all of you think of Kerry speaking so much about his faith?

[John F. Kennedy]

Do you get the feeling that when Kerry says "I respect what..." he means the exact opposite.

[John F. Kerry]

So who's winning anyway?It's pretty close in terms of the rhetoric, IMHO. Bush was full of crap WRT the tax cuts going mostly to the poor. Kerry's health plan is disingenuous.

:exams: Kerry is playing the race guard. Unbelievable. :exams:That's an odd typo. why is it ubelievable? i thought it was expected, because it's a winning issue for him.

I'm typing quickly. :oops:

Considering Bush's cabinet is more represented by minorities than any preceding, I find it pathetic.I'm surprised Bush didn;t mention that. I don;t think people believe Bush will do more for minorities than Kerry. that's why its a winning issue for kerry. Bush;s record isn;t that strong on this issue, despite his cabinet.

[John F. Kennedy]

Is kerry proposing a mass orgy? :P

[American Psycho]

80 minutes down, 10 to go

[The Waiting Hurts]

What is he talking about with the praying...I zoned out.I think he was asked about a statement he made.
What was the question? All of the "glippity glop" is making it hard to follow.

[asdfasdf]

Bush doesn't want to impose his religion on others, but he supports the faith based initiatives, and beleives freedom in Afghanistan is a gift from God, sounds a little preachy for me

[Tim><]

I think Kerry had the atheist vote in the bag leading into this debate. Not anymore.

[John F. Kerry]

What do all of you think of Kerry speaking so much about his faith?As an atheist i wish they would both stfu about god.

[Tim><]

Do you agree with my above comment?

[Tim><]

Bush doesn't want to impose his religion on others, but he supports the faith based initiatives, and beleives freedom in Afghanistan is a gift from God, sounds a little preachy for meI don't disagree. However, I am surprised at all of Kerry's faith talk.

[John F. Kerry]

I think Kerry had the atheist vote in the bag leading into this debate. Not anymore.get real. atheists aren't worried about kerry compared to Bush who is a member of the religious right.

[Moe Szyslak]

I think Kerry had the atheist vote in the bag leading into this debate. Not anymore.Yeah, they might vote for Bush.

[American Psycho]

Suddenly Kennedy is a good guy?

[Moe Szyslak]

Suddenly Kennedy is a good guy?He is the conservative one...

[asdfasdf]

I think Kerry got a little cornered, if he hadn't talked about God he would have lost more of the Christian vote than he would have gained from atheists.

[John F. Kennedy]

Gawd, more CFR. :shake:

[Tim><]

I think Kerry had the atheist vote in the bag leading into this debate. Not anymore.get real. atheists aren't worried about kerry compared to Bush who is a member of the religious right.Yeah, but atheists are not single dimensional. The more Kerry talks about his faith, the less of an advantage he has with that crowd.

[Tim><]

I think Kerry got a little cornered, if he hadn't talked about God he would have lost more of the Christian vote than he would have gained from atheists.Maybe. It was well played if it was choreographed.

[John F. Kennedy]

John McCain is for EVERYBODY!!

[The Waiting Hurts]

It's a pretty divided time. So in other words, it's divided very differently.

Thanks!

[Tim><]

I don't think that was that funny. However, Bush just practically floored the crowd.

[Tim><]

Self-depricating humor from a president. :exams:

[Moe Szyslak]

I think Kerry had the atheist vote in the bag leading into this debate. Not anymore.get real. atheists aren't worried about kerry compared to Bush who is a member of the religious right.Yeah, but atheists are not single dimensional. The more Kerry talks about his faith, the less of an advantage he has with that crowd.Tim, he was asked a question about it. He doesn't push it on others like the President. It is a huge stretch to think they care if Kerry talks about religion for 90 seconds once during the campaign because someone asked him about it.

[asdfasdf]

love at first site :exams:

[Tim><]

I think Kerry had the atheist vote in the bag leading into this debate. Not anymore.get real. atheists aren't worried about kerry compared to Bush who is a member of the religious right.Yeah, but atheists are not single dimensional. The more Kerry talks about his faith, the less of an advantage he has with that crowd.Tim, he was asked a question about it. He doesn't push it on others like the President. It is a huge stretch to think they care if Kerry talks about religion for 90 seconds once during the campaign because someone asked him about it.He's mentioned it in regards to many questions.

[John F. Kennedy]

I just gotta hear what John is going to say about his wife.

[The Waiting Hurts]

"She speaks english better than I do..."
:rofl:

[American Psycho]

Scheifer and the crowd are laughing with JFK.

[John F. Kerry]

Do you agree with my above comment?no, not at all. Atheists know that any president is going to be religious, or at least say they are. kerry is trying to win a few votes from the religious who have doubts about his faith. that's a much bigger voting block.

[American Psycho]

Now Kerry plays the Mom card.

[Moe Szyslak]

I don't think that was that funny. However, Bush just practically floored the crowd.90 minutes of silence and you would laugh at just about anythign as well.

[Tim><]

He just called himself a waffler. :exams:

[John F. Kennedy]

... and I'm still waiting.

[asdfasdf]

They keep me honest, nooooooo, bad thing to say!

[Tim><]

I think both candidates feel left out in that they haven't been able to mock themselves. They seem to be enjoying it.

[Moe Szyslak]

Now Kerry plays the Mom card.It is a good play, everyone has had a mom at some point in their life.

[The Waiting Hurts]

... and I'm still waiting.
Does it hurt?

[Moe Szyslak]

... and I'm still waiting.
Does it hurt?:lol:

[Tim><]

Here comes the service reference and the faith reference.

[Tim><]

John Stewart is going to have a field day Kerry's closing statement.

[John F. Kennedy]

Not at all.

So he was dishonarably discharged (see the other thread), and he'll be a president along the same lines. One hopes not.

[John F. Kerry]

I think Kerry had the atheist vote in the bag leading into this debate. Not anymore.get real. atheists aren't worried about kerry compared to Bush who is a member of the religious right.Yeah, but atheists are not single dimensional. The more Kerry talks about his faith, the less of an advantage he has with that crowd.Tim, he was asked a question about it. He doesn't push it on others like the President. It is a huge stretch to think they care if Kerry talks about religion for 90 seconds once during the campaign because someone asked him about it.He's mentioned it in regards to many questions.Seriously, Kerry will not lose the atheist vote to Bush on the grounds of which of them is more religious. Atheists don't care if someone is religious. We care about maintaining separation of church and state. Etc etc etc.

[American Psycho]

Sunrise, sunset.

[Moe Szyslak]

Bush sounds like he is about to lead into a song.

[Moe Szyslak]

John Stewart is going to have a field day Kerry's closing statement.OR he will make fun of Bush like he always does.

[Tim><]

His speech is a lot less monotonous than Kerry's.

[John F. Kennedy]

Wouldn't that be a neat ploy?

[Melanie Haber]

Optimism: because after all I've done, the only way to go is up.

[Tim><]

John Stewart is going to have a field day Kerry's closing statement.OR he will make fun of Bush like he always does.Do you not know what I am refering to?

[Moe Szyslak]

His speech is a lot less monotonous than Kerry's.Maybe through those big horns of yours.

[American Psycho]

Bush had better close.

[Moe Szyslak]

John Stewart is going to have a field day Kerry's closing statement.OR he will make fun of Bush like he always does.Do you not know what I am refering to?Apparantly not. All I see him do is make fun of Bush.

[Tim><]

His speech is a lot less monotonous than Kerry's.Maybe through those big horns of yours.Are you so enamoured with your candidate that you don't recognize the monotony of his diction?

[asdfasdf]

Come on pull my finger, no you pull my finger

[Tim><]

:lol: I was wondering what they were saying to.

[John F. Kennedy]

Who let her in?!

[John F. Kerry]

karen Hughs is doing well spinning. got any dramamine?

[asdfasdf]

Interesting idea in an economics textbook about politics. Picture a long beach with two ice cream carts, people go to whichever ice cream cart is closer. In the end both carts end up in the middle of the beach to optimize. Kerry and religion is a lot like this, so long as he appears a little bit less zealous than Bush he will get the atheist crowd. And so long as Bush appears a little bit more zealuos he gets to keep all the strong beleivers. In the end it makes it hard to tell where either candidate really stands.

[John F. Kerry]

Kerry's people are happier than Bush's.

[John F. Kennedy]

They're on valium.

[Griffin 8]

Do you agree with my above comment?no, not at all. Atheists know that any president is going to be religious, or at least say they are. kerry is trying to win a few votes from the religious who have doubts about his faith. that's a much bigger voting block.Why do you assume religious people won't figure that out, too.

[Uncle Ronny]

Do you agree with my above comment?no, not at all. Atheists know that any president is going to be religious, or at least say they are. kerry is trying to win a few votes from the religious who have doubts about his faith. that's a much bigger voting block.Why do you assume religious people won't figure that out, too.

Because religious people can't think for themselves. Well Catholics, at least.

[Griffin 8]

I know that's your belief, but perhaps IM is not as bigoted as your are.

[John F. Kerry]

Do you agree with my above comment?no, not at all. Atheists know that any president is going to be religious, or at least say they are. kerry is trying to win a few votes from the religious who have doubts about his faith. that's a much bigger voting block.Why do you assume religious people won't figure that out, too.Where did I say he would actually win some of those votes?

[Uncle Ronny]

Yes. I am bigoted against myself. Get a sense of humour.

[Griffin 8]

Do you agree with my above comment?no, not at all. Atheists know that any president is going to be religious, or at least say they are. kerry is trying to win a few votes from the religious who have doubts about his faith. that's a much bigger voting block.Why do you assume religious people won't figure that out, too.Where did I say he would actually win some of those votes?Where did I say you said that?

[Griffin 8]

Yes. I am bigoted against myself.It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

[Truth Soldier]

Do you agree with my above comment?no, not at all. Atheists know that any president is going to be religious, or at least say they are. kerry is trying to win a few votes from the religious who have doubts about his faith. that's a much bigger voting block.Why do you assume religious people won't figure that out, too.Where did I say he would actually win some of those votes?Where did I say you said that?

Where does he say that you said he said that?

[Griffin 8]

Where do I say he said that I said he said that?

[John F. Kerry]

Do you agree with my above comment?no, not at all. Atheists know that any president is going to be religious, or at least say they are. kerry is trying to win a few votes from the religious who have doubts about his faith. that's a much bigger voting block.Why do you assume religious people won't figure that out, too.Where did I say he would actually win some of those votes?Where did I say you said that?It was implied. Or you were being even less clever than I gave you credit for.

[Griffin 3]

The answer to your first question is "It was implied".

[lou]

I thought Bush won the debate. I consider myself leaning towards GWB, but I am hardly a kool-aid drinking supporter.

I found the Cheney daughter reference out of line. What was the point?

I thought GWB seemed closer to answering the questions asked.

Kerry is such a pandering typical politician - I cannot believe anyone is actually excited about the prospects of him being president, beyond the fact he isn't Bush, and I think that's a shame.

I thought Kerry's response to the SS issue was far inferior to Bush's. And in listening to that debate, repealing the tax cuts for the top 2% will fund Healthcare, eliminate deficit, and save SS. Does that make any sense?

[C8 Guy]

I thought Bush won the debate. I consider myself leaning towards GWB, but I am hardly a kool-aid drinking supporter.

I found the Cheney daughter reference out of line. What was the point?

I thought GWB seemed closer to answering the questions asked.

Kerry is such a pandering typical politician - I cannot believe anyone is actually excited about the prospects of him being president, beyond the fact he isn't Bush, and I think that's a shame.

I thought Kerry's response to the SS issue was far inferior to Bush's. And in listening to that debate, repealing the tax cuts for the top 2% will fund Healthcare, eliminate deficit, and save SS. Does that make any sense?

I agree. Bob asked Kerry, "So are you going to leave SS alone and let the problems get worse?" and Kerry's answer was pretty much "yes".

[Guerilla poster]

Out of line, I wouldn't go that far - I think he was trying to make the point that even someone presumably brought up in a strict conservative household is gay, how can it be a choice. But again, I think he could made that point without mentioning her; I am not exactly sure why both he and Edwards mentioned her, some political strategist must have told them to because the pattern is consistent.

[lou]

I am not exactly sure why both he and Edwards mentioned her, some political strategist must have told them to because the pattern is consistent.

It is obviously intentional, and I am wondering what the strategy is there. I think these internet polls have to be rigged somehow. I saw MSNBS had a 70/30 margin for Kerry last night, and that just isn't possible, given what i saw.

[Guerilla poster]

More like 55 - 45 in my view but then of course I favor Kerry so a Bush lover would probably reverse those numbers. It really depends on what issues you are concerned about. Kerry is making empty promises and Bush is not offering anything new.

I think the numbers are rigged. I read somewhere the Dems were asking Kerry supporters to vote online after the debates to help impact public perception.

[Guerilla poster]

I am not exactly sure why both he and Edwards mentioned her, some political strategist must have told them to because the pattern is consistent.

It is obviously intentional, and I am wondering what the strategy is there. I think these internet polls have to be rigged somehow. I saw MSNBS had a 70/30 margin for Kerry last night, and that just isn't possible, given what i saw.

I think the strategy though I doubt the effectiveness is to try to reduce the enthusiasm of some cultural conservatives to voting for the President. I am no strategist and certainly have no insight into the cultural conservsative mindset but I think it is more likely to backfire.

[Loner]

I found the Cheney daughter reference out of line. What was the point?



SOMETHING ABOUT MARY: I keep getting emails asserting that Kerry's mentioning of Mary Cheney is somehow offensive or gratuitous or a "low blow". Huh? Mary Cheney is out of the closet and a member, with her partner, of the vice-president's family. That's a public fact. No one's privacy is being invaded by mentioning this. When Kerry cites Bush's wife or daughters, no one says it's a "low blow." The double standards are entirely a function of people's lingering prejudice against gay people. And by mentioning it, Kerry showed something important. This issue is not an abstract one. It's a concrete, human and real one. It affects many families, and Bush has decided to use this cynically as a divisive weapon in an election campaign. He deserves to be held to account for this - and how much more effective than showing a real person whose relationship and dignity he has attacked and minimized? Does this makes Bush's base uncomfortable? Well, good. It's about time they were made uncomfortable in their acquiescence to discrimination. Does it make Bush uncomfortable? Even better. His decision to bar gay couples from having any protections for their relationships in the constitution is not just a direct attack on the family member of the vice-president. It's an attack on all families with gay members - and on the family as an institution. That's a central issue in this campaign, a key indictment of Bush's record and more than relevant to any debate. For four years, this president has tried to make gay people invisible, to avoid any mention of us, to pretend we don't exist. Well, we do. Right in front of him.

[lawfi5h]

Questions I am thinking that didn't get answered last night, that I wouldn't mind hearing someone's opinions on:

Kerry: How do you plan to stop exporting jobs AND raise the minimum wage? Doesn't that seem to indirectly contradict each other since the reason jobs are going elsewhere is because CEOs know they can get them at a cheaper labor rate?

Bush: Do you really think its a good idea to give people the option to manage their own Social Security account? Doesn't that inherently contradict the term "Social Security"?

[Guerilla poster]

Questions I am thinking that didn't get answered last night, that I wouldn't mind hearing someone's opinions on:

Kerry: How do you plan to stop exporting jobs AND raise the minimum wage? Doesn't that seem to indirectly contradict each other since the reason jobs are going elsewhere is because CEOs know they can get them at a cheaper labor rate?

Bush: Do you really think its a good idea to give people the option to manage their own Social Security account? Doesn't that inherently contradict the term "Social Security"?

The privatization is only partial, and optional. Unless there is a 40 year bear market, it is difficult to imagine the payoff will be worse.

1) why not just make 401k more accesible?

2) We are going to need the payroll taxes to pay future benefits.

[lawfi5h]

Questions I am thinking that didn't get answered last night, that I wouldn't mind hearing someone's opinions on:

Kerry: How do you plan to stop exporting jobs AND raise the minimum wage? Doesn't that seem to indirectly contradict each other since the reason jobs are going elsewhere is because CEOs know they can get them at a cheaper labor rate?

Bush: Do you really think its a good idea to give people the option to manage their own Social Security account? Doesn't that inherently contradict the term "Social Security"?

The privatization is only partial, and optional. Unless there is a 40 year bear market, it is difficult to imagine the payoff will be worse.

I, admitedly, do not know much about his plan. But it seems to me that it really doesn't hedge risk. If you have a personal savings in a mutual fund, your employer's retirement plan (which is becoming less and less DB, and more and more DC/401(k)), and then part or all of your social security benefit....that is the traditional "3 leg stool - plan for retirement"...but if they are all invested in the stock market...and it has a 4 year bad run like we are in now...and you were 61 before that started....you are screwed.

Not to say that social security would be enough to compensate for all that the way it is now...but I think we are assuming that people are smart enough to get a positive return over 40 years.

I am not convinced.

I wouldn't mind having my own account so I know that what I put into SS, I will get out...but it could be like a cash balance type of thing where I don't have to bear the investment risk. Not that I personally can't do it, but I doubt most americans can. Unforntunately...saying that or admitting that would be political suicide.

[foghorn]

Questions I am thinking that didn't get answered last night, that I wouldn't mind hearing someone's opinions on:

Kerry: How do you plan to stop exporting jobs AND raise the minimum wage? Doesn't that seem to indirectly contradict each other since the reason jobs are going elsewhere is because CEOs know they can get them at a cheaper labor rate?

Bush: Do you really think its a good idea to give people the option to manage their own Social Security account? Doesn't that inherently contradict the term "Social Security"?

The privatization is only partial, and optional. Unless there is a 40 year bear market, it is difficult to imagine the payoff will be worse.

I, admitedly, do not know much about his plan. But it seems to me that it really doesn't hedge risk. If you have a personal savings in a mutual fund, your employer's retirement plan (which is becoming less and less DB, and more and more DC/401(k)), and then part or all of your social security benefit....that is the traditional "3 leg stool - plan for retirement"...but if they are all invested in the stock market...and it has a 4 year bad run like we are in now...and you were 61 before that started....you are screwed.

Not to say that social security would be enough to compensate for all that the way it is now...but I think we are assuming that people are smart enough to get a positive return over 40 years.

I am not convinced.

I wouldn't mind having my own account so I know that what I put into SS, I will get out...but it could be like a cash balance type of thing where I don't have to bear the investment risk. Not that I personally can't do it, but I doubt most americans can. Unforntunately...saying that or admitting that would be political suicide.

My understanding is that the "privatization" would have very limited investment options. Each of these options would most likely have a better return than the current ss funds. But I think the options would probably be something like Investment grade bonds or munis.

[Guerilla poster]

Honestly I don't think that was what he was trying to do.

[lou]

Did anyone catch the throw-in by Kerry last night about the beautiful and sincere hug that Daschle gave Bush after 9/11? Wow, that was such a blatant attempt to try and prop up another guy struggling for re-election that it made me laugh. I have no idea if it was actually effective. I don't think Kerry has a lot of sway over the people of South Dakota.

I liked it when Bush took about 15 seconds to answer a question, then Kerry took the next minute and a half to respond to something else. Maybe I am more biased against kerry than I thought, as I thought Bush did much better than Kerry last night, but the polls etc. seem to indicate otherwise.

[Guerilla poster]

Bush screwed up. First, he didn't really answer the question. Second he let Kerry get more time to talk.


Why do you think Bush won? What appealed to you?

[lou]

Bush screwed up. First, he didn't really answer the question. Second he let Kerry get more time to talk.


Why do you think Bush won? What appealed to you?

I guess I felt like he actually answered a higher portion of the actual questions as opposed to diverting back to his stump speech. He did that some, but I felt like Kerry kept coming back to rollback of the tax cut for the top 2% as the solution to every single problem, which it is not.

It also resonates with me that he doesn't have a very strong record in the Senate to back up all these promises he is making, and I felt Bush did a decent job at pointing that out. I think because I don't have the same hatred of Bush that many do, I just look with different colored glasses at the debate.

[lou]

And maybe I feel that way because his performance was so dramatically improved from prior debates, and i felt like Kerry's was his worst of the three.

[Guerilla poster]

Bush screwed up. First, he didn't really answer the question. Second he let Kerry get more time to talk.


Why do you think Bush won? What appealed to you?

I guess I felt like he actually answered a higher portion of the actual questions as opposed to diverting back to his stump speech. He did that some, but I felt like Kerry kept coming back to rollback of the tax cut for the top 2% as the solution to every single problem, which it is not.

It also resonates with me that he doesn't have a very strong record in the Senate to back up all these promises he is making, and I felt Bush did a decent job at pointing that out. I think because I don't have the same hatred of Bush that many do, I just look with different colored glasses at the debate.

You are right, I see it with different glasses. I generally felt that Bush kept avoiding the questions (specifically on jobs and health care) and would start talking about education. That is a fine long term view but people who are unemployed don't want someone to talk about our education system when asked about jobs. I understand that the conservative view is to let the economy work and jobs will happen - it is tough message in a debate and I don't think Bush has the gift of gab to make the message resonate with folk (Reagan was great at that).

[John F. Kennedy]

Healthcare?! Bush directly answered the flu-shot question, kerry let loose a standard "when you don't know what to say" healthcare bit.

Do tell us what you were smoking, drinking, snorting, or injesting in some fashion, cuz it's good s**t.

[Guerilla poster]

I was thinking later in the debate. It was more on the jobs thing. We are never really going to agree on this.

Anyway, I thought the flu shot question was a bit silly anyhow. What is Kerry supposed to say? bush explained the problem already in his time alloted.

[lou]

You are right, I see it with different glasses. I generally felt that Bush kept avoiding the questions (specifically on jobs and health care) and would start talking about education. That is a fine long term view but people who are unemployed don't want someone to talk about our education system when asked about jobs. I understand that the conservative view is to let the economy work and jobs will happen - it is tough message in a debate and I don't think Bush has the gift of gab to make the message resonate with folk (Reagan was great at that).

I will say something that is said here with minimal frequency - you make some good points, and I can see how you view it that way. You are also right, Clinton could have sold it - Bush not so lucky.

I don't think Bush avoided the jobs question, but I agree he spoke to a long term approach to fixing it. That said, I don't see how increasing the minimum wage will add jobs, but rather decrease them.

Re healthcare, I thought Bush laid out four reasons why healthcare is expensive, not the least of which is the need for tort reform. How was that ducking it? I'd say lying to people about your plan to cover everyone (that doesn't cover everyone) is worse.

[Guerilla poster]

I agree. I think the current healthcare system is royally screwed up and tort reform is a driver but far from the major driver. I have to admit I really don't know how we fix it, costs are going to keep going up and it will affect our standard of living. Am I being a pessimist probably but I personally feel this needs to be seriously addressed (it is more important than addressing SS by far). At least I feel, Kerry will address that this is an issue while with Bush I felt he hasn't even recognised it as a serious issue.

One further point, I think this was the worst moderated of the three debates.

[Guerilla poster]

I was thinking later in the debate. It was more on the jobs thing. We are never really going to agree on this.

Anyway, I thought the flu shot question was a bit silly anyhow. What is Kerry supposed to say? bush explained the problem already in his time alloted.

Why does he have to say anything? I never understand why these guys feel they need to "fill time." "Gosh, I really have nothing to say. I may as well talk about how bad the administration is on health care."

Just give a short answer and be done with it.

Some of the questions deserved five second answers. I think some of the problem is with the strict time limits. Some questions need more than the time alloted and others can be handled quickly.

[John F. Kerry]

The answer to your first question is "It was implied".No, I don't think it was. I was just offering an explanation as to why Kerry was talking so much about his faith. Your mind-reading skills are off today.