Death Blow for Baseball

[Guerilla poster]

I hope the players/owners realize their sport cannot survive another strike. If they strike, no more baseball for me, sorry.

http://webcenter.newssearch.netscape.com/aolns_display.adp?key=200205151312000131755_aolns. src

[Hagbard Celine]

Same here.

If they strike then:

I'm OUT!!


MLB is done if it happens, they will lose all the remaining fans.

:shake:

[Dr T Non-Fan]

They could at least strike the All-Star festivities. It's in Milwaukee, and Bud will not like this possibility. Then, they can sign a deal, and the Expos can play in the World Series. Or at least the playoffs.

[Tony the Tiger]

:viola: Yeah right. You'll both be back, just like fans came back last time and the time before.....

[Abducens]

I don't think so. It will take more than this. In 1994 everyone said it was the end of baseball. But the baseball-loving sports media got everyone back. I recall SI devoted a whole issue chastising fans for staying away because they were missing some great ball.

But this would be a nice start. I say if they strike this year, and then end up not even playing a 2003 season, we could start to get our hopes up.

[urysohn]

If the Red Sox are still kicking butt in August and they cancel the postseason, I am not going to be happy...
(but it will be kind of fun to hear everybody for the next 40 years: "well, we would have won the Series that year if it wasn't for the strike")

[Abducens]

>>If the Red Sox are still kicking butt in August and they cancel the postseason, I am not going to be happy...

Wouldn't be a bad time to get behind the Pats! :)

[Hagbard Celine]

just like fans came back last time and the time before

I wasn't really a huge fan back then...just a casual Sox fan. I couldn't have cared less about the strike.

And I disagree about fans coming back last time. I know many people who no longer follow baseball due to the events surrounding the previous strike. I know even more people who follow baseball but are extremely unhappy about the state of professional baseball. These are the same people who would stop following it.

Baseball players are paid outrageous sums of money to play a game they are supposed to love. To top it off, they are whiners. "We don't get paid enough. My hand is sore, I need a day off." Give me a break...football players play with broken bones. What happened to the love of the game...to sacrificing yourself for the good of the team (rather than worrying that it might hurt your stats)...to running out every ball, regardless of whether you have a chance at beating it.

I'm dealing with a small sample, but from reading baseball boards, I gather my experience is representative of the population as a whole...

[RedSoxFan]

I'd be willing to bet that the players are going to use this effectively as a bargaining tool. The owners know they can't afford another strike. The players still have their contracts (though they might not get signed for as much in the future). Once they're in the offseason, the players don't have as good of a bargaining decision.

[Pseudolus]

But the baseball-loving sports media got everyone back.

That's got to be the funniest use of the "you just do what your TV says" line of argument that I've ever seen! :lolup:

[Ben Kenobi]

:soap:

I bet, if MLB-as-we-know-it tanked, it wouldn't take more than a year for another professional league or leagues to start. Wow! Competition and innovation!

:rant:

The best sign each side could give would be to fire their leaders and start over. The people in charge are still busy fighting battles from the 1970's.

:crazy:

Thank you. I'm feeling much better now.

[Shrek]

1993 Attendance: 70,257,938 (includes 7,548,197 from Colorado and Florida playing in their first season)

2001 Attendance: 72,566,108 (includes 4,034,816 from Arizona and Tampa)

Draw your own conclusions. Personally, I wish ESPN would go back to showing Aussie Rules Football.

[Guerilla poster]

I wonder how much of that is due to the increase in Latinos in the USA since 1993. Just curious.

[Anonymous]

Where are the national television contracts? I live in a city with an American League franchise without cable. How do I watch the National League teams? Before the 1994 labor dispute I could have seen baseball played on the networks. Now I am reduced to watching a home team play on a local station against teams which don’t interest me. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and the Bay Area host two teams from each league. Perhaps the Northeast isn’t aware of the problem with the close proximity of the cities. TBN (and later WGN) has destroyed televised baseball.

Someone told me this month that golf was more interesting to watch on television than baseball. I told them they were only interested in the celebrity status of the players and that I watch baseball to see baseball. To prove my point, I asked if they ever watched the LPGA. The reply was “I don’t like watching the old guys play.” Celebrities above sport grab audience appeal.

I know many people who no longer follow baseball due to the events surrounding the previous strike.I know many people as well. Professional baseball used to be more than going to the ballpark and enjoying the atmosphere. It used to be about boys playing a game to beat other boys playing a game. It’s used to be about throwing a ball as hard as you can throw it and telling the batter “Try to hit this.” It used to be about sliding headfirst into home to win a game, or catching a ball you have no business reaching. It used to be about being competitive and hating to lose, and not being able to wait for the next game to prove how much of a fluke that loss was, when you eventually do.

It used to be about playing a game; something I doubt the powers that be ever actually took the time to do as a child. It used to be about excelling as an individual while learning to work as a team.

The deathblow was administered in 1994. I can convince people to come to the ballparks with me DESPITE the game. Attendance is level; interest has been decimated.

[egg]

To prove my point, I asked if they ever watched the LPGA. The reply was “I don’t like watching the old guys play.”

I know the LPGA aren't the most feminine, but calling them old guys is kinda mean. :)

[RedSoxFan]

I wasn't a baseball fan when the previous strike occurred, so I'm not sure how I'd react to another one. I like baseball because I'm a Red Sox fan, I'm a sports fan in general, and it also has lots of great statistics, and of course actuaries like that kind of stuff. I will say it is definite that my overall baseball interest will decrease if a work stoppage happens.

It will be interesting to see what happens if one does. Will baseball still be considered a premier major sport? If the MLS (soccer) really tried, could it pass MLB in popularity? Or will hockey pass baseball (if it hasn't already)? It's hard to believe baseball could just disappear, with its tradition and everything is in place, but you wonder where MLB will find itself. It seems like baseball is still stuck doing things the old way: football and basketball have flourished since they instituted free agency and salary caps. Baseball has a lot of antiquated business rules, and it's just not fair when the large market teams have such an advantage with the money they can afford on payroll, etc.

[Abducens]

>>I know the LPGA aren't the most feminine, but calling them old guys is kinda mean.

I think Draco meant to illustrate that his friend, for all his rah-rah-ing about golf, didn't seem to know to that the LPGA are the ladies, not the old men.

[Abducens]

>>It's hard to believe baseball could just disappear, with its tradition and everything is in place, but you wonder where MLB will find itself.

Someone here said that someone else would start another league and I agree. I'm not against baseball per se, but its system is flawed how teams can flat out buy the World Series, and how the sports media acts like it's still America's favorite game. I wonder if this fall NFL Prime Time will get its own special sports ticker graphics like Baseball Tonight has now.

[whisper]

if this fall NFL Prime Time will get its own special sports ticker graphics like Baseball Tonight has now

Why would they get their own sports ticker? The games are usually over hours before the show starts.

[Abducens]

>>Why would they get their own sports ticker? The games are usually over hours before the show starts.

All ESPN programming has a ticker, but they use different graphics for Baseball Tonight. Why?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

You go, Draco!
I won't pay for tickets, but I'll go for free and watch highlights on TV. And watch the World Series. But that's about it. No souvenirs, but I'll plunk at least $20 for food (for the inviter and other family members, not just myself).
I still say that the players should threaten to boycott the Milwaukee All-Star game. That'll get Selig's attention.

[Captain America]

I wasn't a baseball fan when the previous strike occurred, so I'm not sure how I'd react to another one. I like baseball because I'm a Red Sox fan

A-HA! Now I understand the exuberant optimism in the Red Sox thread. You're just a rookie. Don't you worry, they'll (the Sox) rip your guts out too. Then you can really claim to be Red Sox fan. Until they have, you don't really understand what the words "Red Sox fan" mean.

[Tony the Tiger]

I still say that the players should threaten to boycott the Milwaukee All-Star game. That'll get Selig's attention.

Todd Zeile suggested this. The Best Damn Sports show, Tom Arnold said the Tigers are already boycotting it. John Kruk said Todd Zeile is already boycotting it!



PS. Captain, I thought the same think about Red sox fan. Should change his handle to Rookie RSF.

[Captain America]

the Tigers are already boycotting it.


:lolup:

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I don't know how they stretch that show into 2 hours nearly every night. (Is it repeated after the first hour, or do they show yesterday's show?)

Good d*mn show, but not the best d*amn show.

And my and Zeile's idea is still better.

Now Selig reports that 5 or 6 teams can't stay in business much longer. To that I say, "Yeah, when he decides to eliminate them." His lies are just not cutting it anymore. The assumption that these teams are independent businesses (as opposed to being cooperatives within MLB, subsidiaries of corporations, and personal play toys of the owners) is plain wrong. I do agree that their next round at the TV contracts will hit hard, but that's the risk they take.
Ideas:
1. Local TV revenue to the local team is capped. Open bidding on this process ensures that the local station that owns the team doesn't pull an Enron. All revenue above the cap is spread among the rest of the teams.
2. National TV revenue split equally.
3. Stadium ticket and vending revenue for local team capped. The rest goes to the other teams.

This will cause the most havoc to owners who have recently bought or have borrowed against the team's market value. Too bad for them.

[Actuary321]

I saw something about how many work stoppages MLB has had. I was surprised at how many of them there were. I remembered the one in '81 cause I met Danny Ainge while he was away from the Blue Jays. But when they cancelled the World Series that was more than I could take. I had never been an avid fan but I did follow the seasons and watched all of the playoffs and WS. After the '94 bit I didn't watch a full game until about 98 or 99. The homerun chase was very very good for MLB. I agree that if the WS is cancelled this year it will be the end of MLB as we know it.

If that happens, I will not watch another MLB game for a very long time.

[quentin cassidy]

After the strike of '94, Cal Ripken saved baseball. Consecutive game 2152 (?) was the first game I watched after the strike. Since then, I typically go to a couple games a year, and follow the playoffs closely.

The HR thing is getting old, so I don't think Bonds or whoever chasing 75 or 80 in a year would do much good. Bonds isn't generally well-liked enough to save the game anyways, the only thing that might do the trick several years down the road would be Sosa chasing HR 755.

[VP]

Here's the rub

Selig is an idiot and a buffoon. He is wrong that contraction will solve anything.

The players are wrong in not allowing competitive balance (revenue sharing, caps, etc)

However the public debate is always shaped in terms of who's right and who's wrong. Unfortunately ownership is closest to being right, but the idiot at the top smashes all their credibility and moral high ground.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Do my ideas require approval of the players? Most of the revenue sharing and salary cap deals require approval, and that screws everything up. I'm thinking my ideas can be passed with owners only. And even then, owners losing value could be compensated in a way that makes them happy ($$$). If they were willing to pay to contract, they could do this.

And, there's always the gung-ho owner who can still win at any cost because it's all his money. (I'm thinking the Ranger owner, not Steinbrenner.) That type of owner messes it up for the rest.

An idea that would require approval:
50% of the excess profit overall goes to the players, according to their salary paid during that year for the time that they were on the active roster. This eliminates cut-and-paid personnel as well as injured reserved time.

[Shrek]

Selig is an idiot and a buffoon. He is wrong that contraction will solve anything.
It will solve the problem that too many people may be interested in baseball, and quite possibly help PGA and NASCAR ratings.

[RedSoxFan]

I wasn't a baseball fan when the previous strike occurred, so I'm not sure how I'd react to another one. I like baseball because I'm a Red Sox fan

A-HA! Now I understand the exuberant optimism in the Red Sox thread. You're just a rookie. Don't you worry, they'll (the Sox) rip your guts out too. Then you can really claim to be Red Sox fan. Until they have, you don't really understand what the words "Red Sox fan" mean.

Wouldn't enduring last year's Red Sox by itself be enough to be indoctrinated?

[whisper]

All ESPN programming has a ticker, but they use different graphics for Baseball Tonight. Why?

I finally got to watch a Baseball tonight this week. The ticker on the bottom has a small little diamond on it to show men on base concurrently with the television show. None of the other ESPN shows have that. So, I believe it is because Baseball Tonight is on usually when games are being played.

[Mick Fan]

[quote="whisperSo, I believe it is because Baseball Tonight is on usually when games are being played.[/quote]

You're exactly right. This is why BBTN has a different ticker. Just for the record, Ripken's record game was 2,131.

It would be a huge disappointment for a strike. I think it would tick off many more fans that it did in 1994. I know of a lot of people who were big baseball fans before '94 who are just lukewarm fans now. It would get even worse with a damaging strike this year. There are just so many more sports choices now than there were then. PGA and NASCAR have much more popularity now then they did in '94.

[Captain America]

I wasn't a baseball fan when the previous strike occurred, so I'm not sure how I'd react to another one. I like baseball because I'm a Red Sox fan

A-HA! Now I understand the exuberant optimism in the Red Sox thread. You're just a rookie. Don't you worry, they'll (the Sox) rip your guts out too. Then you can really claim to be Red Sox fan. Until they have, you don't really understand what the words "Red Sox fan" mean.

Wouldn't enduring last year's Red Sox by itself be enough to be indoctrinated?

Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to give you the impression I'm hassling you. But last season was just the tip of the iceberg.

[Abducens]

>>I finally got to watch a Baseball tonight this week. The ticker on the bottom has a small little diamond on it to show men on base concurrently with the television show.

:horse:

It's not just a ticker showing a diamond. They use different colors and font. And even if it were just a diamond, you don't see "possession" and "ball on" ticker graphics for the NFL when its games are in progress.

Why are the media willing to throw more resources at a sport that not only not the most popular at the moment, but is in fact dying? Sports journalism's inordinate love of baseball will keep it alive for a few more years than it otherwise would survive.

[whisper]

Why are the media willing to throw more resources at a sport that not only not the most popular at the moment, but is in fact dying?

If the show is getting good ratings to justify the expense, ESPN would spend the money regardless of the success of the sport it is talking about. If Curling Tonight would get good ratings, there would be a show on it even though curling is not all that popular.

[Abducens]

>>If the show is getting good ratings to justify the expense, ESPN would spend the money regardless of the success of the sport it is talking about.

They're wasting money, then, unless another channel that I'm not getting right now is offering the same info. Otherwise it sounds like a case of expenditures rising to meet the budget.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

People watch Baseball Tonight so they don't have to go to games or watch a whole one on TV. Same reason I watch Priiime Tiiime.
There's also the target demographic theory. I don't know what it is, but a survey of advertisements give one an idea.

[Cosmo]

And my and Zeile's idea is still better.

You seem to be a little proud of an idea that was ripped off there.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I'm sure Todd didn't mean to, but it does make the idea so much more legit, eh?

[Cosmo]

Good one :P

[urysohn]

The strike is already having some effect, even though it hasn't happened yet. I had been really gung-ho on the Red Sox this year even before they started kicking butt. But just knowing there's a good chance they won't finish the year, I can't get excited about the games. Who cares if the Sox are 40 games up on the Yankees come August if they're just going to call off the season. So now I can't even watch the games, and I'm barely caring what the final scores are. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Having a strike vote that late into the season is bound to pass -- there are only six teams whose players would vote against it, if they're normal sports players (who want to win). That leave 24-some-odd teams voting for striking.

[Captain America]

Have hope, urysohn. Public perception is obviously very important in this situation. If the players strike, the owners cry foul and get the public on their side. However, if the players don't strike and put the owners in the unenviable position of having to lock the players out after the World Series, well, that changes things quite a bit, doesn't it?

[whisper]

I still say that the players should threaten to boycott the Milwaukee All-Star game. That'll get Selig's attention.

This would be moronic for baseball players to boycott, because all procedes of the All-Star game goes to the MLB pension fund. Screwing yourselves over to tweak Selig's nose isn't the best of ideas....

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I thought the million-dollar salaries took care of their pension fund.
That pension fund is probably for way-retired players. You're right: those retired players shouldn't get tweaked.