Actuarial Students without a study program...

[Elaine Benes]

I previously worked for a computer software company. We had no 'official' student program, but we unofficially got our study time, fees and books paid for, and raises for passing. We were in the process of making it official, when we were bought out by a technology/financial services company that didn't have any student actuaries, and therefore does not have a student program.
The powers that be (non-actuaries) are adamently against exam raises. "We don't give raises for passing the CPA or for LOMA" is the excuse. Officially, they don't want to give us study time, either, but we unoffically have permission from our department head. Unfortunately, even our department head doesn't even mention exams except at our annual review - and the competent people in our department our loaded down with so much work that we have trouble making the time to study. On top of that, a co-worker passed an exam in November, and never received a raise, and was told at their review last week that they probably wouldn't get one. WHERE'S THE MOTIVATION? :-?

Has anyone experienced anything like this? Does anyone have any advice (aside from bailing). The problem is that many of us really like our jobs, and also like this area (if we changed jobs, we'd have to move). By the way, most of our salaries are also below industry average, so it's not like our current compensation makes up for all of this...

[Crystal Dragon.]

Has anyone experienced anything like this? Does anyone have any advice

Bail.

(aside from bailing).

oh well... my advice is still to punch out, Goose.

The problem is that many of us really like our jobs, and also like this area (if we changed jobs, we'd have to move). By the way, most of our salaries are also below industry average, so it's not like our current compensation makes up for all of this...

Been there done that (loved the job, wanted exams, however was well paid). Tried everything in my power to make change. Finally bailed, and am MUCH happier now.

Good luck!

[Elaine Benes]

Okay, so let me add another question. What do you think about the job opportunities for someone with few exams compared to years of experience? For example, 2 exams and 6.5 years experience - extremely qualified in all areas except for exams...

[glenn]

You shouldn't have much of a problem finding a job if you are in the right area. No study program is the same as being drastically underpaid, and generally the only way to fix that is to move.

As for the LOMA comparison, that's a joke. It's like comparing a grade 10 math exam to a post secondary degree (I've written both LOMA and actuarial exams).

If you want to stay where you are, maybe start up a 'study time' survey here, then point your employers to that thread. Combine that with the DW Simpsons salary survey (http://www.dwsimpson.com/salary.html)and you should be able to give them a pretty good idea of what your comp package should be.

[Griffin 1]

If you enjoy working there, then stop taking exams. It will never make any difference whether you get your letters or not. If it's more important to you to have those letters after your name, go somewhere else.

[Crystal Dragon.]

Kramer: Are you me? I'm *just about* in the same position. If you are anything at all like me, then my advice stands. Bail, man. ...and check your PM's...

LOMA? Is this guy for real? How about sitting for SAT's? Is there an agency that will certify you to perform scratch-and-sniff QA? jeezzz... :shake: :roll: :shake: I'm with Glenn on this one. They aren't going to see it your way because they a) have you where they want you b) don't have to pay you c) can work you night and day. If they give in, then the control is out of their hands. Time to cut bait.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Unfortunately, Griff is right.
I'd also point the company to places or people at SOA who think that actuarial folks will be a benefit to the financial services industry.

[Crystal Dragon.]

Excuse me, but a Dragon is not a Griffin. :-? A Dragon is not a lizard or a worm... are you a bit cofused, my friend? :)

[Dr T Non-Fan]

No, you snuck in a post.
I usually check the number of posts, especially in a new-named poster, to see if it's the griff.
You are right as well. Seems like a slam-dunk to us who are detached from the bailing.

[Crystal Dragon.]

Are you implying that Amato is Griffin? hmm....

[urysohn]

As with most work situations like this, your options are somewhat limited:
- Suck up and deal with things the way they are
- Push firmly but reasonably for a change. Tone will be very important here. If you plan on staying either way, you don't want to burn too many bridges. But you can gather information on what other companies do and present it as a reasonable proposal. The key here: It is standard practice to give bonuses/raises based on actuarial exam performance. It is not standard practice to do so for CFA / LOMA.
- "Threaten". Put the new plan in place or you will be leaving. Tone is even more important here. You absolutely need to sound reasonable and have even more backup information than in the prior step. It certainly wouldn't hurt your case to "unionize" and make sure everybody in your situation is with you. But you cannot take this step unless you mean it - your current situation is intolerable and you will be leaving if it does not change. I think you're already on the right track - you like the job, the area, etc, and it really will be a hardship for you to move on. Think very carefully before taking this route.

There's definitely a lot of gray area in between. But I think I would essentially go with the second option - push for change from within. If things absolutely do not change, you should strongly consider leaving. I would have to have some very strong ties to the company/area before going the third route (which I would see as the "I really want to stay and this is my last option" choice).

[Crystal Dragon.]

Bail. :swear: Things will never change. Things CAN never change. Change is evil. There is no such thing as change. You work for evil people. You must go. Go now. Go quickly. Carry a big stick and go quietly. Hit someone with the stick on the way out. Bring a zippo. Burn bridges. Bridges are evil. Bridges cannot change.

Wow. I didn't realize I was so embittered... sorry. Just ignore me for now... :oops: :roll:

[urysohn]

ummm, you OK there, CD? :o

(did you know Glenn can take care of that pesky "." at the end of your user name, if you ask nicely)

[Pub Guy]

HFTTMDTAADMF had a good point. If you really like it there that much and don't plan to move, then quitting exams are a reasonable alternative. I would be concerned however, if your salary doesn't increase to at least comparable FSA salaries over 5-10 years.

I used to work in an office w/o an official program, but it didn't bother me too much because I was almost done and felt I'd be taken care of after getting my letters. I was lucky to pass w/o any significant study time, but that was when the exams were smaller.

I also have LOMA under my belt and comparing the two are a joke. I'm surprised about their stance toward CPA. How do they retain their bean counters?

Good luck.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

"How do they retain their bean counters?"

There are lots of bean counters.

[miw5]

It is more important to have your salary at the correct level than it is to receive exam raises/bonuses. As long as your total compensation is reasonable, I would not be so concerned.

If you are passing exams at a fairly quick rate, you might need a 20% annual raise to stay comparable to what the rest of the market is receiving. But most companies are not willing to give out those types of raises. Exam raises help to disguise (to the employer) the annual increase that you actually earned/deserve.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

miw5 is right on the compensation aspect. But the study time (and the restriction of forced overtime before exams) might be more of an issue.

From Kramer:
"The problem is that many of us really like our jobs, and also like this area (if we changed jobs, we'd have to move)."

Reading over this sentence, I conclude that you're too happy with your situation, and your employer knows that. You'll have to get "more unhappy" somehow. Valuable and unhappy are a great combination for negotiations.

[Elaine Benes]

Okay, so where is the best place to ask the question (which I'm sure has been asked, but I can't find a thread): Describe your actuarial student program - study hours, raises, bonuses, materials, seminars...

Should I post in the 'Survey' section? I'm planning to compile some of the info to present to 'the important people'.

[Mulan]

Okay, so where is the best place to ask the question (which I'm sure has been asked, but I can't find a thread): Describe your actuarial student program - study hours, raises, bonuses, materials, seminars...

Should I post in the 'Survey' section? I'm planning to compile some of the info to present to 'the important people'. The best thing would be to get your hands on some actual study program documents from some large and medium, well-known diverse companies. It would be better if some were local.

Mostly, just ask students you know to fax you a copy of their program.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Check the local actuarial club. There's a list of them on SOA web site.
OK, I'll do the search for you.

http://www.soa.org/links/links.asp#CLUBS

Find the one nearest you, then see if the Pres or Sec has copies of actuarial programs.

You'll need:
1. Number of study hours per exam, and restrictions on how they can be utilized (for example, can't take off three straight weeks as study time).
2. Compensation for passing.
3. Penalties or consequences of not passing.
4. Whether exam fees are paid, and how many repeats are paid.
5. Study materials, number (or $ amount of) supplemental manuals paid for.
6. Whether seminars are paid for, and how many repeats.
7. Whether donation to forum can be reimbursed.

You can also take this list, modify it, and post the question in "surveys" see if anyone responds. If you want to restrict it to a particular geography, yuo should state so. Good luck! Mulan's idea is better -- getting actual copies of study programs.

[Kitten]

Mostly, just ask students you know to fax you a copy of their program.

I have done this, and it works, but, make sure you promise to keep this confidential, or you could potentially be getting someone in trouble for sharing information on what is considered part of the compensation package. Once I promised (and mainatined) confidentiality, I got more info than I could have hoped for.