What is the next target?

[Mr. Grim]

If you were a betting man, what would you bet is the next target:

- My guess is the Super Bowl


*Sorry, if anyone is offended by this topic

[Anonymous]

If you know that something you're about to do will require an apology, isn't that a pretty good indication that you shouldn't do it? I see the value in having a discussion about what the terrorists may target next, however, presenting the issue as some sort of Death Pool is, in my obviously hypersensitive opinion, inappropriate.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

All the stars think it will be the Emmy's.

That's slightly more offensive than your remarks. I mean, it's in their nature to be self-absorbed, but this is beyond ridiculous.

Sure, the national audience for the Super Bowl would broadcast their "statement" more effectively. But I haven't heard of any words about our blasphemous games needing to be eliminated.

[The Mister]

Well, judging by this morning's bomb threat, it was my office building.

d*mn pranksters. (Or whoever it was)

Just so I'm clear, we're back in the office. As with every threat that I've ever heard of, it was a fake.

[Patience]

The WTC is the countries financial center.

Washington is our political center.

Any next attack would be biological against food sources or water sources. or explosive against power (oil wells, nuclear power, dams) or a military site.

[Guerilla poster]

How about against our cultural centers!

Where is the next Nascar race or monster truck show?

[Anonymous]

I'm hoping all our efforts here in the States is enough to keep us safe from (significant?) retaliation for the time being. I anticipate the next target will be overseas, be it an American interest or possibly something in Great Britain.

[Phil]

"My guess is the Super Bowl"

I doubt it. Their mission is to destroy American society, not improve it.

[Anonymous]

I'm hoping it's the Chicago Actuarial Exam site, the night before Course 5.

[golgo13]

All the targets struck uptil now have been connected with the US's power, whether its military (the USS Cole, the bases in Saudi, the Pentagon), political (the Embassasies) or financial (the WTC).

This makes targets such as the Emmys, Superbowl etc extremely unlikely.

[Damn, Dirty Ape]

Something else in common with the attacks: number of potential American victims was very high.

The Cole and the embassies were local targets with many Americans.

Had all occupants in the WTC and the Pentagon been killed, the numbers would been much worse (over 70,000 killed).

That would make the Superbowl a plausible target.

Further, if an attack was biological, a large sporting event would be a good place to hit:
1. Many out-of-towners (increasing area of disease)
2. Large TV audience who would see the terror as it occurred -(increase terror). That works only if the attack is not covert.
3. High portion of guys infected, since guys are less likely to seek early treatment and diagnosis : "I'm fine! I DON'T need a Doctor! I'll just walk it off"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: d*mn, Dirty Ape on 2001-10-05 16:12 ]</font>

[Spectrum]

Sears Tower, Empire State Building, UN, Capitol Building, NYC tunnels or bridges, LAX(they went after WTC until they got it ==> implies that they will go after LAX until they get it), or a Stage 3 attack - first attack on WTC=6 dead, second attack=6,000 dead, third attack=6,000,000 dead. Need a nuke from Pakistan or Iraq.

[Mr. Grim]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grim on 2001-10-05 17:25 ]</font>

[golgo13]

On 2001-10-05 16:10, d*mn, Dirty Ape wrote:
Something else in common with the attacks: number of potential American victims was very high.

In the Africa bombings, around 90% of the victims were locals.
In the Cole & Saudi attacks, the # of victims were low (approx. 19 in each case).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: golgo13 on 2001-10-07 07:50 ]</font>

[Drewby]

In Tom Clancy's book "Executive Orders", which starts with a jumbo jet flying into the US Capitol during a joint session of Congress (WTC is not THAT incomprehensible!), the terror organization attempts (unsuccessfully) to spread the biological agents via aerosol cans at trade shows.

[Actuary321]

On 2001-10-08 10:15, Drewby wrote:
In Tom Clancy's book "Executive Orders", which starts with a jumbo jet flying into the US Capitol during a joint session of Congress (WTC is not THAT incomprehensible!), the terror organization attempts (unsuccessfully) to spread the biological agents via aerosol cans at trade shows.


Actually the jumbo jet flying into the US Capital occured at the end of "The Sum of All Fears", which then continued into "Executive Orders".

Of course in an earlier book, I forget which one, terrorist explode a nuclear bomb outside the Superbowl.

[Patience]

& don't forget the car bomb in the MidTown tunnel

I currently have the latest Clancy sitting on my end table and I can't bring myself to read it

[Crystal Dragon.]

Rainbow Six (also Clancy) distributes a super-version of eboli via a 'cooldown mist' at the olympics in Australia.

[Actuary321]

On 2001-10-08 11:14, Patience wrote:
& don't forget the car bomb in the MidTown tunnel

I currently have the latest Clancy sitting on my end table and I can't bring myself to read it



I don't remember the car bomb in the MidTown tunnel. Which one was that from? I'll have to go back.

Is the one on your end table "The Bear and the Dragon". I read a review of that one that said they should have called it "The bore and the drag-on". I got it and read it any way. Not his best but glimpses of his style. A fun read after exams.

[Patience]

It is Bear & Dragon, $2 at a yard sale. A lot o people find him boring, but hey I'm actuary. I like the books.

I have read them all and am having trouble remembering which book had which specifics. It becomes one continuous story.

Then there are all the Netscapes and other "Clancy Lites".

My favorite was Red Storm Rising, which is the only one not based on the Ryan characters. I feel he needs to start a new story line.

[E. Blackadder]

On 2001-10-08 10:55, Actuary321 wrote:

On 2001-10-08 10:15, Drewby wrote:
In Tom Clancy's book "Executive Orders", which starts with a jumbo jet flying into the US Capitol during a joint session of Congress (WTC is not THAT incomprehensible!), the terror organization attempts (unsuccessfully) to spread the biological agents via aerosol cans at trade shows.


Actually the jumbo jet flying into the US Capital occured at the end of "The Sum of All Fears", which then continued into "Executive Orders".

Of course in an earlier book, I forget which one, terrorist explode a nuclear bomb outside the Superbowl.


Sorry, you're both wrong. The Sum of all Fears has a failed fusion bomb blasting the Super Bowl. Ryan stops an immediate retaliatory strike.

In Debt of Honor, after defeating the Japanese, a JAL flight -- suicides into the Capitol Building during a joint session. Ryan was confirmed as VP during that session immediately before the crash.

Executive Orders starts as Debt of Honor ends. So Drewby is within the bounds of any nonzero tolerance.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: E. Blackadder on 2001-10-08 14:50 ]</font>

[Guerilla poster]

Wasn't there a Clancy book that started off with a terrorist bombing of Times Square Area that killed like 40,000? Or was that another author? I am getting confused?

I think it may have been Sum of All Fears?

[Actuary321]

On 2001-10-09 10:00, Guerilla Poster wrote:
Wasn't there a Clancy book that started off with a terrorist bombing of Times Square Area that killed like 40,000? Or was that another author? I am getting confused?

I think it may have been Sum of All Fears?


One of his other lines, the name Power Plays : Politika comes to mind, had the story line of a bomb in Times Square at midnight 12/31/1999.

By the way, "Sum of All Fears" is suppose to come out in theaters in the summer of 2002. They made some major modifications to it. Like they made Jack Ryan about 20 years younger (and cast Ben Affleck as Jack Ryan) and made the terrorists European rather than Middle Eastern.

One thing that comes from casting Ben Affleck as Jack Ryan is that Tom Clancy is now going back to even before "Patriot Games" to write more "Jack Ryan" books.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Actuary321 on 2001-10-09 15:51 ]</font>

[Mr. Grim]

From Clancy web site:

Executive Orders (EO)

Written by: Tom Clancy

First published: 1996

Known translations:
Danish - Præsidentens Ordre (1997)
Italian - potere esecutivo (1996)

Plot:
Debt of Honor ended with the Capitol as a smoldering ruin after the Jumbo Jet crash. The President, the Cabinet, and most of Congress were killed. Only moments before the crash Jack Ryan was sworn in as Vice-President of the United States. Now with the President dead, Ryan has to build a new government from scratch. But this is not the only problem. All over the world enemies of the United States see a chance to make a move on their weak enemy.

[Patience]

actually wasn't Red October written before Patriot games, but chronilogically later?

[Actuary321]

Yes, and Without Remorse was a story that incorporates many of the same characters but occurs in the late 60's/early 70's.

A site I looked at that had a series timeline from references in the books indicated that there are some discrepancies in the timeline also.

[chucky almendinger]

Is tom clancy as bad as john grisham? I was reading the pelican brief and had intense deja vu. I realized it was because he recycled so many plot devices from the firm.

[Patience]

Clancy uses the same main character in all his fictions (but one). So there will be some repetition and there are only so many ways to try to take over the world.

The "Clancy Lites" Netscape, powerplays t me seem repetitive except maybe for locale.

I have read a half dozen Grisham's and have never seen so many wholes in a plot and annoying characters. I can't believe he is so popular.

[chucky almendinger]

so, patience, clancy's not nearly as bad as grisham? I don't know if I should take him up, I think I know the basics of every plot from this thread, but maybe I will.

[Patience]

his books are very long and very detailed oriented. I like the older ones better than most of the newer ones. Though except for Red storm, it helps to read them in order

In order
Red Storm Rising
Red October
Patriot Games
Without Remorse
Clear & Present Danger
Rainbow Six

[Actuary321]

On 2001-10-11 16:43, Patience wrote:
his books are very long and very detailed oriented. I like the older ones better than most of the newer ones. Though except for Red storm, it helps to read them in order

In order
Red Storm Rising
Red October
Patriot Games
Without Remorse
Clear & Present Danger
Rainbow Six



Would that be in the order that he wrote them?

I would agree with Red Storm Rising. An interesting look at the possibility of a third conventional world war.

As for the order, I would agree except you left some out.

Hunt for Red October
Patriot Games
Cardinal of the Kremlin
Clear and Present Danger
Sum of all Fears
Debt of Honor
Executive Orders
Rainbow Six
The Bear and The Dragon

As for his style, when Tom Clancy was working with a group that bought the Baltimore Oriles George Will said that in his next book Tom was going to devote a chapter to the physics of the curve ball.

I remember in Sum of all Fears, when explaining how a farmer discovers a bomb in his field, he spent about a page and a half explaining how farmers grow rocks.

But if you enjoy that kind of thing, his books do often have very exciting parts, chapters at a time, that can be very hard to put down.

And the other series his names is on are: Power Plays, Op-Center, and Netforce. (not netscape as someone keeps mentioning)

He has also written a number of non-fiction books detailing the workings of different parts of the armed forces such as: Submarine, Armored Cav, Fighter Wing, Marine, Airborne and Carrier.

He has also just released a new one dealing with Special Forces.
One other thing about his books especially his nonfiction is his accuracy to reality. They said when Hunt for Red October came out there were investigations in the FBI, CIA and Navy as to how he could have gathered such detailed and accurate information about the CIA and especially about our Submarines.

And all this from an insurance agent.:smile:

[Hierophant]

Here's a disturbing scenario:

OBL finds a reliable way to cause a shutdown of the global airport system for a few weeks. (Through appropriate threats, actions, or both.)

Just prior to that, he plants a few dozen people in the U.S. with active Ebola. They infect thousands of people, but go away quietly and die, and so do not show up on the CDC radar screen. The next generation of infected people show up before the airports are re-opened; each of them infects hundreds or thousands before becoming symptomatic. The airports never re-open, so the infection is primarily isolated in the U.S.

The panic and the overload ovewhelm the system - containment fails and up to 90% of the U.S. population will die.

The U.S. carpet-bombs the Middle East with our nuclear arsenal in a general retaliatory strike against all Arab states. Global reaction or impact? Who knows? You and I would be dead.

All in the space of about six weeks.

[Actuary321]

I think that was in Executive Orders. Except the arabs didn't try to shut down the airports. They were able to develop a strain that was able to be transmitted through the air. And put it in specially rigged shaving cream cans which agents delivered to about a dozen trade shows all over the US. The cans activated after the agents had vacated the area, they then left the country. People at the trade shows were infected and took the infection back to their homes all over the country. The trade shows attacked were targetted because they would have the fewest foriegners so the outbreak was limited mostly to the US. After the outbreak travel was heavily restricted to stop the continued spread. After the initial out break all other countries quarantined people who had recently returned from the US and shut their borders to the US. Since there were some cases among the military, no country would let American soldiers that had recently been in the US on their soil.

One thing that was pointed out in the book, I have not confirmed this through independent research is that the mortality rate for ebola in the initial infected persons is 90-100% but in the second generation (those that get it from the initially infected persons) the mortality drops quite a bit, then the next generation it drops even more and after about 5 or 6 to 8 generations the mortality rate goes to near 0. So you would need to infect a lot of people in the first couple of generations to wipe out 90% of the population. But that is still a scary scenario.

[Patience]

A321: I was just giving the order of my favorites. Forgot Cardinal & the Kremlin though.

I keep messing up the name of the other Clancy, co-wrote fictions. I've read quite a few from each series, but if I don't start writing down the names I can't remember which I've already read.

As for Bear & Dragon. In all honesty I am still quite a bit off from 9/11. Is there too much in there that I might have trouble reading? I may need to leave it on the shelf for a while. Thanks

[Actuary321]

I don't think there is much you would have trouble in light of recent events. This one is not a terrorist type threat, more of a nation to nation conflict. Since it involved China it was interesting following the spy plane incident having recently read Bear and Dragon. I have to admit though it was not the most suspenseful book Clancy has written. In fact I would probably put it about at the bottom of the list.

As for the others Clancy "co-wrote". Actually, his only real involvement in them as I understant was sitting done and coming up with the concept for the series and that was probably only in an advisory role. He doesn't have anything to do with actually righting them.

One other book I failed to mention was "SSN". This follows a US submarine during a fictional war with China. It had glimpses of Clancyish suspense but in the end felt like the author got tire of writing and so he wrapped it all up really fast.

Good luck in what ever you decide to read.

[OT]

Icon of American culture.

Sports -- I can see why Super Bowl was mentioned.

Hawaii/Waikiki -- icon of travel, leasure, pleasure.

Disneyland/Disney World.

The Bush International Airport in Houston, Texas. We all know how Bush is hated by terrorists.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: OT on 2001-10-18 16:55 ]</font>

[Guerilla poster]

Wouldn't Las Vegas be a bigger target than Hawaii?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I agree. It's God's will that Hawaii is beautiful.

A world without Vegas wouldn't devastate the country's economy. Only holders of high-yield bonds. (And organized crime -- another group you just don't want to piss off.)

[Mr. Grim]

Besides, where will the terrorists get their hookers if they destroy Las Vegas? No 72 Virgins there.

[OT]

Yup. Las Vegas.

Does Hawaii have gambling? I don't think they do.

[Drewby]

Hey OT -

How is it that you spelled Hawaii and Waikiki correctly, but biffed on the "Super Bown" and "Huston"?

[Patience]

Destroy either site & the Japanese will enter this war big time.

[ElDucky]

No attacks (in the USA anyway). The War on Terror succeeds!

[Buru Buru]

No attacks (in the USA anyway). The War on Terror succeeds!
how do you know that there won't be one tomorrow?

[ElDucky]

Because Obama is in charge.

[Buru Buru]

Because Obama is in charge.
oh, i see.

[Jasper07734]

I thought this thread was gonna be about Quinn & co.

[Buru Buru]

I thought this thread was gonna be about Quinn & co.
who?

[vtek]

Because Obama is in charge.

so the terrorists won?

[Browncoat]

how do you know that there won't be one tomorrow?

The terrorists all took the day off to celebrate Labor Day with their families.