Cycling's finest - the Tour de France

[L. Mo]

1 month from today (July 6), the TdF starts.

Will Lance win for the 4th straight year?
Discuss amongst yourselves!

[sb_jim]

I think that Lance can do it again. The best of the competition just finished the Giro d'Italia and that seems to wear them down a little for the Tour. The CSC team made a good showing last year and could get Tyler Hamilton into a podium spot but he may have spent it in the Giro.

The French teams laid off the Giro like US Postal did so they could provide a strong contender to be named later, much as the Italians always show up for their tour. Drug scandals have dumped a lot of contenders out which may weaken Lance's accomplishment to some, not to me. Lance will handle Cadel Evans, Tyler Hamilton did in Italy. Ric Verbrugghe can't do the mountains or he would challenge.

This is one of my favorite annual events and OLN TV makes it easy to keep up on a daily basis. Call your local cable operator or log on to olntv.com.

[egg]

I think without Ullrich there, Lance really doesn't have much competition. So barring injury or illness Lance will win again. As sb_jim pointed out the contenders from the Giro wear themselves out, so no one that rode well in the Giro. Oscar Sevilla is still a couple years away from being a top contender. No one else I can think of has the physical talent to beat Armstrong (much less the mental strenght it takes to compete).

[Buffy]

I just love the boys in those tight shorts!

[Shrek]

Tyler Hamilton (formerly of US Postal) finished second at the Giro d'Italia

[L. Mo]

19 days! I can't wait!

They had a pic in the paper on Saturday from the Dauphine Libere. The Posties looked mighty fine!

[L. Mo]

8 more days! Can you feel the excitement?
(or is it just me?) :D

[egg]

I'm getting there. I hoping Lance has some competition or decides to spot someone 20 minutes again. I'll still watch to the end, but it would definitely make it more interesting if it is still close going into the last week.

[Shrek]

Damn! It was Lemond's birthday the other day, and I forgot to post it. Another inspirational story (for those of us who remember it).

[Guerilla poster]

Another person I know who was shot.

[L. Mo]

The Official Tour site (http://www.letour.fr/indexus.html)

[Gandalf]

Thanks, elmo. What do you know about television coverage in the US this year?

[L. Mo]

more than likely, it will be the same as last year. every day on OLN (Outdoor Life Network...call your cable provider!), with live coverage every morning, and probably the last stage on CBS.

Looking forward to the sweet voices of Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwen.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Lance doesn't give anyone a 20 minute head start. He saves his strength for when he (and all Tour riders) need it: the mountains.
I just hope his team is better this year.

[Elisha]

DTNF,
Didn't his (Lance's - US Postal) team win it last year? I could be wrong of course.

[L. Mo]

No, the Posties did not win the team competition. I think Kelme did.
The Team competition takes the top 3 finishers from each team, and totals their times. Whichever team has the lowest cumulated time at the end wins. Postal has never won the team competition, to my knowledge.

I'm rooting for Hincapie to get a stage this year. That would be cool!

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Perhaps someone could find a link faster than I, but I thought it was the top four of five finishers.
Q: Are the top X finishers for each stage added up, or is it the top X times for the whole TdeF?

I think the team competition could be more intriguing (not necessarily more exciting) than the individuals' race. too bad it's not covered as much, nor is the award/recognition as nice.

[Elisha]

I stand corrected.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

From http://www.letour.fr/2002/us/reglement.html

A r t i c l e 2 4 - TEAM time trial stages
In team time trial stages, riders start at 5' intervals in the reverse order of the general team classification following stage # 3.
The team classification of the stage is based on the time recorded by the rider who finishes in 5th position (with a precision of 1/100 of a second). An identical time is granted to all the team members who record this time or a lower time.
For the individual general classification, the times are recorded as follows:
- the time of the 5th rider in each team for riders who qualify for this as stipulated above;
- the actual times of laggards with a maximum limit of 7' relative to the first team's "scratch" time.
The lag of teams that finish more than 7' after the first team (the "scratch" time) is limited to 7' in the individual general classification. However, riders who finish later than the time limits set by the regulations (coefficient 6) are eliminated.

A r t i c l e 2 5 - Classifications
...
e) GENERAL TEAM CLASSIFICATION
The general team classification is determined by adding each team's best three individual times for the prologue and every stage.
In the event of a tie in the general classification, the order of teams is determined based on the number of stage wins by team, then their number of second places, and so on until a number of places obtained by one of them enables them to be finally placed.
A team reduced to fewer than 3 riders is eliminated from the general team classification.

Top three riders of each stage. Fifth rider in the Team time trial. Fair enough.

[L. Mo]

I am way too much of a cycling geek. you'd think I actually owned a bike!

[ASA_Woman]

I am way too much of a cycling geek. you'd think I actually owned a bike!

:lol:

[L. Mo]

less than 12 hours 'til the Tour on TV! Whooooooooooo!

This could be really exciting, especially for American Cycling...it could be an All-American podium...Lance, Tyler Hamilton, Levi Leipheimer.

[Gandalf]

Can those of us who can't get OLN :( count on you for daily updates?

[Gandalf]

Today's paper says that the first event is a 4.2 mile individual time trial. I thought the first day was always a virtually meaningless Prologue.

Is starting with a time trial new? Is 4.2 miles over flat terrain almost irrelevant, in terms of difference in time among competitors?

[L. Mo]

As far back as I can recall (~13 years), they Prologue is always a TT. There was 1 year where they didn't have a prologue, but I think stage 1 was a TT. That was 3 or 4 years ago.

Its only real purpose is to determine who wears the first Maillot Jaune.

I'm watching now...this is so cool!

[L. Mo]

Lance takes the first Yellow Jersey! Whooooooooooo!

[Dr T Non-Fan]

This differentiates the cyclists to the millisecond (or some small unit).
Since most races end with a pack getting all the same time, the time trials are nearly essential at the start of this race, in order to provide a placement for each rider.
I guess a normal stage steep climb could do the same, but mountains come later.

[Bob the Dog]

bob follows tour here (http://www.letour.fr/indexus.html). these guys too fast for bob to chase on foot.

[L. Mo]

Bob! didn't know you were a fan. I don't recommend trying to follow on foot...you'll wear your cute self out pretty darn quick! :D

Has anyone watched the coverage on OLN so far? Why do they need an extra commentator? Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwen do fine without him. So glad Bob Roll is nowhere in sight (he keeps saying Tour Day France...very irritating!). Frankie Andreu is getting more comfy at being a commentator. They had that CBS guy from the final stage last year do a "Tour Flashback" bit that was really dumb.

(31 posts to go!)

[sb_jim]

Looks like they added the new guy, something Patrick, as a smoother anchor than Phil has been in the past. I actually liked the combination of Phil, Paul, and Bob for the Giro but there is a little too much expert commentary with three. The new guy seems to want to be an expert too which does irritate me.

Frankie's bits have been short, informative and so far enjoyable. Bob Roll says he knows he butchers the pronounciation and does so for a reason. I think the reason may be that he was being dropped from the coverage team. OLN provides great coverage especially due to the frequent replays. They don't have very much other programming and that suits me fine. I can't wait for the Alps but everyday has something new and interesting.

[L. Mo]

Thru today's stage (3).
O V E R A L L S T A N D I N G S
# N° Name Nat. Team Time

1 011 ZABEL Erik GER TEL en 13h 31' 35"
2 147 MC EWEN Robbie AUS LOT à 00' 08"
3 153 BERTOGLIATI Rubens SUI LAM à 00' 14"
4 051 JALABERT Laurent FRA CST à 00' 17"
5 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP à 00' 17"
6 158 RUMSAS Raimondas LTU LAM à 00' 20"
7 032 BOTERO Santiago COL KEL à 00' 21"
8 047 MILLAR David GBR COF à 00' 22"
9 204 BROCHARD Laurent FRA DEL à 00' 23"
10 121 FREIRE Oscar ESP MAP à 00' 25"


just wait til we hit the mountains!

[Bob the Dog]

bob think credit agricole is stinkin' up joint. other than O'Grady CA doesn't have rider within 4' of lead + five riders behind slowest postie. maybe bob can run with CA team.

[L. Mo]

:lolup:

Bob, you crack me up! You can run with me any time (if I ever get a bike, that is!)

[Kid Rock]

I am interested in the race since I am a sportsfan that generally likes competition. This race generally involves a great deal fo strategy, some I understand and some I don't. I hope one of the knowledgable bike fans can answer this question.

On the second or third day, Lance fell 3 seconds behind. The comments about this was that it was a good thing since, if he stayed first, he would have to "protect" the yellow jersey? Why?

If he doesn't worry about losing it on day 2, why would he race any different on day 3 or 4 to "protect" the jersey when the overll goal is to win the race. Why care what days you have the yellow jersey?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Well, the last day is pretty nice. And any day before that with an insurmountable lead (assuming a normally-run stage) is just as nice.

Whoever said or wrote that is an idiot. Similarly-leveled idiots think that a pitcher's superior win-loss record is sufficient for a Cy Young Award's 1st-place vote.
In these early stages, anyone could blow past those seeking to conserve their strength.

What I find amazing (in a physics-related sense) is the amount of energy saved by riding with the peloton versus riding with a breakaway group. Yesterday was windy, so the two guys in front couldn't share the wind enough. The peloton eventually caught up.
Strategy 1: if you want to win a stage, never block the wind for the whole day. Then try to beat everyone else using the same strategy.
Strategy 2: to win the whole race, train hard, lose the pack on the mountains where a 1 km/hr difference adds up a lot faster (percentage-wise) than 1 km/hr on the flats.

[Ducky]

How much longer with the Tour remain interesting this time? If Lance can stay this close before the mountains, it could get really ugly.

[Shrek]

Sean Kelly (former rider and multiple green jersey winner) just about hit the nail on the head today:

[Sean Kelly] has suggested that today's stage will be won by an escape group. His favorite for the stage? Ludo Dierckxsens of the Lampre team. "If he goes, he'll be strong enough to stay away."

Dierckxsens finishes 3rd in the breakaway group of 5.

[Botsy]

I am interested in the race since I am a sportsfan that generally likes competition. This race generally involves a great deal fo strategy, some I understand and some I don't. I hope one of the knowledgable bike fans can answer this question.

On the second or third day, Lance fell 3 seconds behind. The comments about this was that it was a good thing since, if he stayed first, he would have to "protect" the yellow jersey? Why?

If he doesn't worry about losing it on day 2, why would he race any different on day 3 or 4 to "protect" the jersey when the overll goal is to win the race. Why care what days you have the yellow jersey?

Disclaimer: I don't know much about cycling.

I heard that it is an unwritten rule that the yellow jersey is supposed to help lead the peloton. Without the yellow, Lance can just sit back letting everyone else break the wind for him.

[L. Mo]

I am interested in the race since I am a sportsfan that generally likes competition. This race generally involves a great deal fo strategy, some I understand and some I don't. I hope one of the knowledgable bike fans can answer this question.

On the second or third day, Lance fell 3 seconds behind. The comments about this was that it was a good thing since, if he stayed first, he would have to "protect" the yellow jersey? Why?

If he doesn't worry about losing it on day 2, why would he race any different on day 3 or 4 to "protect" the jersey when the overll goal is to win the race. Why care what days you have the yellow jersey?

The first week is generally all flat stages, so there are lots of breakaways that get caught. They guys who fight for the General Classification don't want to lose too much time on these stages, so they tend to stay with the peleton, and their teams will work to pace the peleton to catch breakaways. When a big group finishes en masse, they all get the same time. (fractions of seconds only count in the time trials)

So, the team of the guy wearing the yellow jersey tends to work to defend it (keep it). If anyone "dangerous" (time-wise) is in a breakaway, they will work to get the peleton to catch up before the end. Generally, this is successful only in flatter stages.

Does that help?

[Pseudolus]

Lance can just sit back letting everyone else break the wind for him.

<snicker>

[Kid Rock]

Thanks for the response elmo, but that did not really answer the question. Maybe I did not phrase it right. I'll try it again.

Based on the interviews, Lance is happy to be 3 or 7 seconds behind so the team does not have to defend the jersey, but being in first means they have to defend it. After he lost the lead, the team said they were happy. Why would there be such a difference whether you were leading or 3-7 seconds behind? That just sounds stupid.

[Guerilla poster]

I think it is just nonsense interview stuff sort of like the bull durham quotes - "we will take it one game at a time" etc. etc.

[L. Mo]

well, if he's not in yellow, as long as he stays in the bunch he's safe. And, his team won't have to work so hard to pace the bunch, so they won't get worn out before the mountains.

defending the jersey is a lot harder than maintaining a small time gap in the first week...the GC changes quite a bit, with time bonuses and such.

The Posties will only have to work really hard if someone in a breakaway is a serious contender for the overall. Then, the teams of the contenders (The CSC-Tiscali team for Tyler Hamilton, Rabobank for Leipheimer, ONCE for Gonzales de Galdeano and Beloki, Kelme for Botero, Telekom for Zabel to keep the Green jersey) will have to work to catch up so that their guys don't lose too much time.

Here's an example. Last year, on one early stage, there was a breakaway of 12 guys who got away and stayed away, mostly because it was pouring rain the entire day. The rest of the riders lost 35+ minutes in one stage. Unfortunately, there were a couple of contenders in that group, so Lance & co, and the other contenders' teams had to fight back for most of the rest of the tour to get back that time gap.

I still may not have answered your question...

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Lance is probably responding to the irrational expectations of the one holding the jersey. Perhaps there are some unwritten rules (called collusion) regarding the yellow-peloton relationship.

Mostly, Lance and USPS have a game plan that contrasts with the expectations created by media and other cyclists.

Just like yesterday in the team time trial, it wasn't important to win that as much as saving the team's strength for the mountains. Lance, regardless of how the race looks, can't do it on his own. That car with the extra bikes isn't always available at a moment's notice, so in case of accident or flat tire, Lance will have to borrow a teammate's bicycle at a moment's notice. If his teammates are minutes behind him at a critical point in a stage, that could mean losing the race.

Seconds are nothing in this race. In the later stages, there are usually three groups of cyclists: stage leaders, race leaders, and peloton. When race leaders become stage leaders, that's when big time differences are being created. And this will happen in the mountains, where the men are separated from the lesser men (we are already separated from even them, watching from 5,000-8,000 miles away).

[Shrek]

Kid, tactically speaking, defending the yellow jersey is harder simply because everyone knows where the leader is. It's pretty easy to find the yellow jersey in a crowd and keep tabs on it than it is to find and watch the postie with the 001 on his back. Physically, there's really not much difference between defending a 3 second lead and maintaining a 3 second deficit.

[L. Mo]

Buzz, you manage to cut thru all the crap. Once again, I gave too much information. Oh well. I just love this race!

Go Posties!

[Daria]

First rest day of the tour. I'm bored. :D

No, seriously. Lance got himself back up to 2nd. It will be interesting once we hit the mountains. How many days 'til Lance is back in yellow? I think by the end of the week.

And for you ladies out there...Saniago Botero, who won the TT yesterday, is quite the hottie! great eyes. :love:

[Elisha]

I think there was some Yahoo or Netscape news headline yesterday that read something like, "Lance falters during time trial". As if he choked and lost the race. Gimme a break. He went 8th to 2nd. I can't wait until the mountain stages. :)

[sb_jim]

The most enjoyable part of the tour so far for me has been those early breakaway groups. Jacky Durand always seems to be challenging and he's second in the overall combativity standings. Pretty good for an old guy (he's almost 35).

The breakaway that made it on Bastille Day was really good but I have mixed feelings about the Dutch riders going 1-2-3 in the end. There is always the complaint that the tour is overweighted with French teams but they do provide a lot of the excitement with the top three right now in the combativity standings and it is their tour. I would like to see Richard Virenque return to his old form in the mountains.

ONCE has been impressive in defending the yellow jersey and they could keep it for some time even if it changes from Gonzalez de Galdeano to Beloki in the early mountain stages. Lance looks very strong this year and is keeping with his game plan. He should triumph in the end where it matters most.

[Bob the Dog]

Gonzalez de Galdeano Retires!

Alvaro ... brother of leader Igor that is.

Bob sees 2 riders challenging Lance. Neither is Igor. Expecting to see Beloki and Botero on podium with Lance in Paris.

[Tri4Ben]

Don't Forget about Tyler Hamilton, He was second in the Giro with a fractured shoulder and he said that a flat tire cost him 1 minute in the time trial monday. That would have put him top 5 right now and I expect he will be with the race leaders in the mountains. You will never hear Phil Liggett say "Hamilton appears to have cracked in the worst possible way"

[Daria]

I definitely think Tyler is a contender. We just haven't seen him really show his stuff yet.

Top 5 will definitely include Lance, Beloki, Botero, Hamilton, and a rider to be named later...Leipheimer? we haven't seen much of him yet, either.

How about the Green Jersey? Will Zabel keep it? Will McEwen take it? Can O'Grady catch up? This one will probably come down to the wire again.

I am really looking forward to the mountains.

[Bob the Dog]

Don't Forget about Tyler Hamilton, He was second in the Giro with a fractured shoulder and he said that a flat tire cost him 1 minute in the time trial monday.
Excuses are like butt-holes. Everyone's got 'em, and most of 'em stink. Bob doesn't think Tyler has the heart of a champ. Bob is happy with podium picks.

[Mr. Grim]

I see Lance is back in Yellow. Probably be pretty boring from here on out unless he has a bad day.

Sorry to be a late comer to this topic. I posted on the CAS website and forgot about it. When I remembered and checked for replies, Daria (formerly known as elmo) directed me here.

Looks like Lance is setting up for his fourth straight. How about Jalabert? Trying to get another stage win before he retires. Rode solo yesterday, getting caught on the final climb. Attacking again today. At least today he has some company.

Jalabert got caught on the final climb again, bummer. I'd like to see him get another stage win. Maybe he'll hold on to the climbers jersey until Paris.

[sb_jim]

I think Jaja is mainly going for the polka dot jersey right now. If he snags a stage victory by going out early on his own he'll take it but he is riding a little too aggressively to hang on in the end. He is going out in style and getting a lot of good coverage for his team. Speaking of CSC, where is Tyler? The Giro d'Italia performance must have taken a toll.

Zabel earned some respect for riding hard on the first day in the mountains to get the green jersey back. I didn't expect that. Cippo usually retired from the tour when the going got tough.

US Postal as a team has the talent for a very high finish, but defending the yellow jersey in the mountains cracks too many riders each day. Too bad they can't ride a little more evenly and still maintain the yellow for Lance. I'm sure the pay is good if they keep him in yellow. Heras looks like a true GC contender and I wouldn't be surprised to see him leading a different team next year.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Another win, and another second for Heras. It might not be traditional, but a one-two punch on the same team might be the wave of the future. That's a huge paradigm shift, I know, especially with the egos involved.

[monkey grass]

What do all the different jerseys mean?

Yellow = Leader
Green = ?
Polka Dot = ?
?? = ??

[Daria]

I'll get to your question in a minute, but first I must :swear: about not getting tomorrow's stage live because of @%$^@%$$# Bass Fishing shows! Mont Ventoux is going to be so exciting...and I have to wait until 1pm for the replay! that SUCKS!

ok, back to your question.
Yellow = overall leader
Green = well, technically, most consistent rider, but this one is for the sprinters
Red Polka Dot = King of the Mountains
White = Young rider (under 25).
Red Number = combativity (this one is judgmentally selected, the guy who attacks the most

There's also the "Lantern Rouge", he's the guy who's in last place overall. I read somewhere that in the old days, he'd actually have to carry a red lantern on his bike.

[Bob the Dog]

ah, so, Beloki wishes to launch attack on Lance. be careful of what you wish.

At least you've got to see the other stages live. My cable company is to cheesy to have OLN, so I have to get the updates off of leTour.

What a wonderful job CBS did with the coverage. Let see, once you take out the commercials, there was what, 45 minutes. Let's spend 5 minutes talking about WWII submarine bunkers. Interesting stuff, just not when you're supposed to be showing cycling. Reminded me of ABC's late 80's coverage when they had Sam Posey and Pierre Salinger (sp?) commentating.

[sb_jim]

Daria:

It was not OLN's fault that you got bass fishing during the normal live broadcast time. CBS has the Sunday broadcast rights (they may even own OLN), so no one could show anything until after the CBS taped broadcast.

My mistake was trying to watch CBS's coverage instead of waiting for the OLN rebroadcast. They had a one hour show as Stickboy reviewed. 55 minutes used to recap the previous 2 weeks of the tour and less than 4 minutes spent on the current day's stage ending on Mont Ventoux. It sucked.

The OLN broadcast was great last night. There was some serious suffering on the final ascent. Virenque got the chance to clear his name a little before he retires. Jaja suffering in the polka dot jersey was a real tribute to how tough Lance really is. I couldn't believe that Heras cracked before Beloki. The alps will be most interesting.

[Daria]

After last year's CBS broadcast of the final stage, I swore I wasn't going to watch yesterday's attempt. Ick!

I listened on-line yesterday morning, then watched it last night. Virenque was amazing. I still don't like him, but he was amazing yesterday.

I am (surprisingly) enjoying Bob Roll's little bits, and those commercials with him...they crack me up.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I just couldn't stay awake last night.
I read Armstrong's opinions of the fans. Some of the less fortunate ones (lacking brain power for whatever reason) think he's doping. It's hard for some to have to conclude that foreigners are better at "their" sport.

If those "fans" were yelling "Doper, doper" as Lance rode by, what were they yelling when Virenque went by?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

"Ex-doper! Ex-Doper!"

What did they yell when our forces liberated their City of Lights in 1944?

[Ex-parrot]

What did they yell when our forces liberated their City of Lights in 1944?
The same thing they yelled when the Germans got there 5 years earlier: "We give up!"

If only the rest of the world was this submissive.

[Bob the Dog]

Bob isn't sure why ONCE isn't doing more of the chasing of Boogerd today; he could find the podium at their expense and still not be a threat to the yellow. Lance should force the issue a bit by pulling back his posties.

Bob admits to being surprised by Tour rookie from team Lampre (Dumsas). Bob had dismissed him from podium consideration, perhaps prematurely. He seems to hang with Lance more easily than Beloki.

[Daria]

Beloki does seem to be "just hanging on" most of the time, doesn't he?

We saw what happened when Beloki tried to attack Armstrong on the Ventoux climb.

Sounds like the troops are being called back to help Beloki, with the peleton "catching" Serrano.

Lance attacked (and dropped) Beloki in the final climb, again. Time to just cruise and stay out of trouble and then crush everyone in the time trial on Saturday.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Today's stage does look a bit rough. There are three 5000-foot climbs. Time to separate. Looked like Lance and many others did the right thing by "resting" yesterday.

My mistake. I didn't check the profile of today's stage. It does have 4 categorized climbs (3 cat. 1s and 1 cat. 2).

[Bob the Dog]

Interesting bit from OLN site:

The cash prize for the general classification goes down to the 150th rider in the race. At the moment three will miss out - they are: Damien Nazon (Bonjour, in 151st @ 3h15'09"), Arvis Piziks (CSC-Tiscali, in 152nd @ 3h22'36") and the 'Lanterne Rouge' Igor Flores (Euskaltel @ 3h24'42").
The 150th rider is @ 3h14'10"

Hope the 3 on the short end at least get "I finished the world's most grueling cycling race and all I got was this lousy T-shirt." t-shirts.

The total prize purse for the 2002 Tour de France is 2,664,035 Euros.
A stage winner gets 7,620 Euros.
The overall winner gets 335,390 Euros.
The sprint and climbing classifications winners get 22,867 Euros.
And the Best Young Rider gets 18,294 Euros.
There are also cash bonuses for each day a rider wears a leader's jersey.

Just a bit of difference between Green and Yellow, eh?

[Daria]

It's over!

Lance wins!
McEwen takes the Green Jersey!
Jalabert in polka dots
Basso in White.

The podium:
Lance, Beloki, Rumsas

Whooooooooooo!

[Mick Fan]

Congrats to Lance!!! :notworth:

[Daria]

now that it's over, I'm kinda depressed...I miss Phil & Paul.

Until next week, for the NYC race...Sunday, 4 August, 1pm eastern on OLN. And the Vuelta in September. I think I'll survive (but barely!)

[Mr. Grim]

Does anybody know where the NYC race is being held? Is their a website, I can't find?

[Daria]

the promos said lower Manhattan...should be interesting! Wish I could be there!

seek, and ye shall find:

http://www.nycbikerace.com/

[Bob the Dog]

Only 6 weeks until La Vuelta España (http://www.lavuelta.com/indexflash.html). Until then Bob will chase his tail.

[Patience]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/785267.asp

how about this perspective? He was ripped on ESPN sports radio.

[Captain America]

What an idiot.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

Yeah, we discussed him and his article in another thread.
Came to the same conclusion, too.

[monkey grass]

Shirley he just made these statements for attention and doesn't actually think that way. :roll:

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I didn't think MSNBC was a source of humorous satire. Or even just satire.

And don't calling me "Shirley."