Overcalls

[MNBridge]

OK to keep it simple. RHO deals and bid 1 :cl:

Do you overcall with: -- I reserve the right to add hands -- please check back if interested.

I would like to keep this thread open for general overcall discussion as well -- anything worth bringing up.

(A)
:sp: Ax
:ht: KJxxx
:dm: Txx
:cl: xxx

[BC]

OK to keep it simple. RHO deals and bid 1 :cl:

Do you overcall with: -- I reserve the right to add hands -- please check back if interested.

I would like to keep this thread open for general overcall discussion as well -- anything worth bringing up.

(A)
:sp: Ax
:ht: KJxxx
:dm: Txx
:cl: xxxDepends on how much I've been drinking.

Seriously, this is not a good overcalling hand - for one thing, the shape stinks. In 5-3-3-2 hands, having a 5-card suit is overrated. For that matter, having 5-card support for PARTNER'S suit is overrated (I've had a partner overbid a limit raise with a 12-count and 5-card support for my major, and we went down in game... wasted strength in trumps (QJ are usually wasted in a 10-card fit) and no ruffing values outside). For another, the suit is anemic - KJxxx might be unlucky enough to get 0 tricks! Also, your outside power is in your shortest suit. And finally, it's hearts, not spades, so you won't get as much bang for your preemptive/interference buck by bidding.

If partner had already passed and/or we're white on red, I can see making an overcall - more likely preemptively at the two level than at the one level.

I'm not saying this hand is hopeless. There are times to overcall (or balance) with a hand like this, and it does have some good features. A 5-card suit. A couple controls. And it's certainly not a hand to make a takeout double with, so if you feel you must compete, it's probably going to be with a heart overcall.

But under the circumstances you described (1C - ?) I don't think I'd do it unless the vulnerability were such that I had a lot more to gain than to lose. And maybe not even then. Besides, partner hasn't had a chance to speak, and we may have another chance to say something later.

[Klaymen]

I admit to making that bid. Both sides were nonvul. I can't say I'm thrilled with my hand, but partner can show support by bidding 2H, 2C, or 3H and I'm not going to take it any further. In this case it was 4HX, which I ended up making.

[John F. Kennedy]

OK to keep it simple. RHO deals and bid 1 :cl:

Do you overcall with: -- I reserve the right to add hands -- please check back if interested.

I would like to keep this thread open for general overcall discussion as well -- anything worth bringing up.

(A)
:sp: Ax
:ht: KJxxx
:dm: Txx
:cl: xxx
What is your partnership philosophy? Constructive, obstructive, or something else? If you resolve the philosophy issues with your partnership (and buy a few books on declarer play for your partner), that a lot of issues go away. Until you re-think the philosophy based on results.

This is a POS hand. Playing (as with some) 6 to 16 -- which is to say purely obstructive, it's an overcall. You don't actually mind a heart lead (a plus), and you may outbid the opponents. Nonvulnerable, you will probably go down an amount about equal to what the opponents will make. The upside is..... not really there. You have no source of tricks, no pleasant surprises for partner, and after the overcall, no rude shocks for the opponents. About the only way to go right is for partner to bid enough to put the opponents to a decision, and for them to get it wrong. And they probably won't get it far wrong.

[Steve White]

It's not an overcall in my book: not enough offensive potential. If the suit were spades, so that you would take away a one-level major suit response, it would be more tempting, but even then I would pass.

[BC]

What is your partnership philosophy?
I probably should have started with this question. If you and your partner agree that this is an overcall, then it's an overcall. That may be a rather sub-optimal agreement, but if it works for the two of you, so be it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I've said it before and I'll say it again: the best system to play is partner's.

And it's certainly an overcall if you're going to make game doubled :-) Was it brilliant declarer play, shoddy defense, luck of the cards, or did partner have a monster, Anon? Kudos.

[Klaymen]

Well, it's not like MN & I have an agreement about what an overcall has to be yet. As long as it's not expensive, I tend to get in and bid my 5-card majors. I get a better picture of my partner's hand depending on his willingness or lack thereof to raise me.

[E. Blackadder]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I've said it before and I'll say it again: the best system to play is partner's.
And that works just swimmingly until you find a partner with the same philosophy, at which point you get a situation not unlike:

http://home.comcast.net/~eschermc/city.jpg

Or even worse, the Hasselhoffian Recursion (http://www.post-literate.com/gerpunx/archives/2005/01/prepare_to_lose_your_mind.php). NSFAvi.

[Klaymen]

KQJxx
QTx
KJxx
x

Ax
KJxxx
Txx
xxx

1C 1H 3C (weak) 4H X

LHO leads out the Ac and shifts to a small diamond and RHO put up the ace. A small diamond back to the Q and K set that suit up. Now the 10h to induce the holder of the ace to hold up. The Qh holds the next trick now but LHO shows out.

I'm thinking it's trump coup time. The opponents follow to 3 rounds of spades leaving this position:

Jx
2
Jx
-

-
KJ8
T
4

I lead another spade and east is helpless:
1) if he ruffs with the 9 i overruff, draw trump, and overtake the d to pitch the c on the long spade.
2) if he ruffs with the A returning the 9h gives me the same ending - overtake. A club exit allows my loser to get ruffed on the board and i get to continue the trump coup (briefly)
3) In the actual layout we both pitched a club. Problem solved. Saaawwweeeeettt!

That's not asking too much of an overcaller is it? :guitar: :lol:

[Klaymen]

You want idiotic defense, here was another donation to my cause. This was ridiculously aggressive, I wouldn't even think of it in a MP game. But this was vul IMPs!!

764
T98752
2
AKT

K9532
AK
KT985
4

1S 2S 3D 4C 4S lol hmmm got some work to do.

3h lead to J and A. Ac in dummy then a low d to my hand. Since RHO doesn't cover, lefty has the A so i put in the 8 to the J. 4h to 5 6 and K. 5d covered by the Ace (whew) ruffed. Kc and I pitch a d. Th ruffed in hand - RHO tosses a d! Now for the piece de resistance - play it to make - low spade to RHO's Q. RHO continues with A (it was doubleton). All righty has to do is either play a diamond now and lefty gets an uppercut or hold onto Q7 of diamonds. Instead lefty plays a club and I ruff. Draw the last trump and RHO pitches a diamond. And my hand is good. :grin: :band2: :moon2: :clap: :lol:

[MNBridge]

OK so given your partner will overcall with 8 - 16 point hands. [which I have no problem with if (A) I realize it and (B) We have a plan].
I think my competitive bidding has become leaps abd bounds better since playing with Anon so I have himm to thank for that.

Now as his partner how do you bid (is only a cue bid forcing? what if I have a suit)? And what do openers subsequent bids mean?

Anon -- if you'd rather discuss privately let me know. Thanks :)

[BC]

OK so given your partner will overcall with 8 - 16 point hands. [which I have no problem with if (A) I realize it and (B) We have a plan].
I think my competitive bidding has become leaps abd bounds better since playing with Anon so I have himm to thank for that.

Now as his partner how do you bid (is only a cue bid forcing? what if I have a suit)? And what do openers subsequent bids mean?

Anon -- if you'd rather discuss privately let me know. Thanks :)
I overcall with 8-16 point hands; I just don't think all 8-point hands with a 5-card suit are worth an overcall. However, it worked, and I'm not trying to be critical, I just would rather have a better 8-point hand to act with.

IMHO:

New suits by responder to an overcall that are non-jump bids should be forcing unless you're clearly in a "crud they're gonna double us for a mint" situation. A cue-bid should show a limit raise or better. 2- and 3-level raises should probably be related to LOTT and deny the strength for a limit raise. HOWEVER - just because you have a suit of your own is not a reason to bid. If you have a 5- or 6-card suit of your own and no support for partner's suit, you probably have a misfit. If you have a lousy hand with a 7-card suit to the Jack, make a weak jump shift; partner will get the message. However, unless you have a GOOD reason to bid ("crud they're gonna double" or enough strength and stoppers that 3NT is a possibility - in other words, you're too weak or too strong to pass the misfit) passing is often the BEST option. I cannot emphasize this enough. Partner has NOT made a takeout double or a two-suited cue-bid, so partner probably isn't too keen on YOUR suit, either, although 3-card support is possible (and while 4-card support isn't completely out of the question, you should probably be prepared for a stiff). (*)

A misfit at the 1-level undoubled is usually not a disaster. If you want to turn it into a disaster, compete against your partner to the 3-level and get doubled. If you want to win, pass and let partner play the misfit. Besides, it will build partner's character. And improve partner's declarer play. If you need your own character and declarer play improved, go ahead and bid and get into a misfit at a higher level, doubled. Some people need to learn these lessons the hard way.

I know that I did.

Again IMHO:

After you have bid a new suit at the cheapest level, partner should assume you like your suit and don't like his and should probably bid one of them at the cheapest level if the overcall was minimal, hoping you'll pass. NT will of course show a stopper in opps suit and no reason to raise your suit or rebid his own. Bidding the fourth suit tends to show a 4-bagger or enough strength that partner was willing to make two bids (otherwise there are 2-suited bids available). A cue-bid at this point shows better support than a raise, I would think.

If you have indicated support for partner, partner should show probably show his strength with the rebid. (1C) - 1H - 2H: Pass with anything below a minimal opener; invite with more (you won't have enough to force to game, since you'd have doubled first). (1C) - 1H - 3H: Go to game if you are near the top of the range, else don't. (1C) - 1H - 2C: Partner is unlimited, try to show weakness with 2H, anything else is probably showing at least opening strength and wants to hear more from partner. Depending on agreements, you could start cue-bidding aces or stoppers at this point. In any of these scenarios, of course, jumping straight to game is almost certainly sign-off.

In the example hand, had I overcalled 1H and partner had responded 1S, I'm in a fix... which is perhaps another reason I wouldn't have overcalled. Least of evils between 2H and 2S is...? Probably 2S. If partner had no more than a 2-card differential between H and S, partner should probably have raised us or bid a suit other than spades, so our spade fit is probably no worse than our heart fit. Note the (*) reference to above - I am ASSUMING that if partner bids a new suit, partner has at least 3 more cards in that suit than partner has support. I do NOT think this is an unreasonable assumption.

[Klaymen]

Anon -- if you'd rather discuss privately let me know.

Doesn't bother me a bit; in the open is better anyway.
I agree with a lot BC said. If you're not thrilled by my 1H bid there's always the pass option. I would only bother pulling it if the bidding continued
[1C] 1H [P] P [X] P P to you. that's rather unlikely, but if you have 1 heart and 5 spades now you can pull it. But there's no point in making a constructive bid unless you can afford a higher contract such as 2H.

I thought your 4H bid was reasonable in this situation since 2C was not an option. Especially at IMPs.

[Klaymen]

Anon -- if you'd rather discuss privately let me know.

Doesn't bother me a bit; in the open is better anyway.
I agree with a lot BC said. If you're not thrilled by my 1H bid there's always the pass option. I would only bother pulling it if the bidding continued [1C] 1H [P] P [X] P P to you. that's rather unlikely, but if you have 1 heart and 5 spades now you can pull it. Not many players are often comfortable leaving a double in for penalty at a low level like that.

But there's no point in making a constructive bid unless you can afford a higher contract such as 2H.

I thought your 4H bid was reasonable in this situation since 2C was not an option. Especially at IMPs.

[MNBridge]

I should note I'm not so much keyed in on the exact hand listed but more in an 'idea'; just having a particular hand made it easier to discuss.

OK this will sound very simplistic (and it is by no means everything just a sort of general base).

So as responder can I almost take a couple points off my hand and respond normally?

i.e.
If I have 8 points - 11 points bid 2 :ht: over 1 :ht: ?
12 points + cue bid or new suit.

15 points + force to game? (and how?)

These all seem reasonable to me (of course these also all assume the player between us cooperates and passes :)

I'm going to throw some questions out here now and try to answer with my thoughts (which are just my thinking). [will edit as I think of them]

[Klaymen]

If you have 6-9, I would raise to 2:ht: unless your hand was particularly flat & ugly. With 10+, begin with a 2:cl: cue bid (assuming it's available). I will rebid 2:ht: with my sad hand. You still don't know if I have 8hcp or a bad 11, so you could invite 3:ht: with 15+ hcp.

Raising to 3:ht: directly would be weak with 4 trump and shape.

[BC]

I agree with a lot BC said.Since I was mostly typing off the top of my head, I feel pretty good about that :-)

I should note I'm not so much keyed in on the exact hand listed but more in an 'idea'; just having a particular hand made it easier to discuss.I was trying to respond in kind, but it was easy to use the particular hand as an example for me, too.

OK this will sound very simplistic (and it is by no means everything just a sort of general base).Simple solutions are often the best ones. Not because they're actually the best, but because they're the least likely to be forgotten or ignored. So don't knock simplicity.

So as responder can I almost take a couple points off my hand and respond normally?

i.e.
If I have 8 points - 11 points bid 2 :ht: over 1 :ht: ?
12 points + cue bid or new suit.

15 points + force to game? (and how?)

These all seem reasonable to me (of course these also all assume the player between us cooperates and passes :)I might shade things a point or so, but that doesn't sound like a bad first-order approximation. To force to game, start by cue-bidding (or simply bid it - typically if you know you don't want to bid slam. 4H is considered a game-forcing bid). The arguments for cue-bidding would typically be: don't want to rule out slam, may have a better place to play (3NT, typically), want to make sure partner isn't stretching so much that game is at risk. The arguments for fast arrival would typically be: opps are bidding actively (as they were in your example) and or you are very distributional (so the opps are LIKELY to compete) and you want to either make them make the last guess or, if they're too weak to compete, you think game is almost certain.

Usually the jump to game requires a nice hand (with controls instead of soft values) but not enough to want to go to slam, or lots of distribution and preferably 5-card (or very nice good 4-card) support.

I think the rule of thumb I was taught was that if partner had opened or overcalled (such that I expected partner to have a 5-bagger), I should go to the 4-level immediately if I had 5-card support, a stiff or void, and 0-10 HCP.

With the actual hand, I probably would have bid 3H myself, and then when partner made 4H, I'd have result-merchanted and felt like I should have bid one more.

[E. Blackadder]

OK so given your partner will overcall with 8 - 16 point hands. [which I have no problem with if (A) I realize it and (B) We have a plan].
I think my competitive bidding has become leaps abd bounds better since playing with Anon so I have himm to thank for that.

Now as his partner how do you bid (is only a cue bid forcing? what if I have a suit)? And what do openers subsequent bids mean?

Anon -- if you'd rather discuss privately let me know. Thanks :)

There are three must-read books on competitive bidding. I don't agree with all of what's in them.
The Complete Book on Overcalls in Contract Bridge, Mike Lawrence (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0939460076/qid=1106844501/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-2800904-7011918?v=glance&s=books),

Lawrence advocates a style of cue = L/R+ or some kind of force, and shows how to differentiate the two.

The Complete Book on Balancing in Contract Bridge, Mike Lawrence (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0939460130/ref=pd_sim_b_2/104-2800904-7011918?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance), and

Partnership Bidding, Robson and Segal (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0571164323/qid=1106844670/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-2800904-7011918?v=glance&s=books)

Robson and Segal opine on the value of pressure bidding, preempting on 100% pure c**p, and knowing when those situation should occur, so that you don't hang partner. They make liberal use of fit showing change of suit bids, explaining when those animals occur and when they don't. Most usefully, 2NT, a rare natural bid in competitive auctions, is redeployed to show useful strength with a fit.

And there's lots more. Quite worthwhile, even if it's not a $100 book, such as Super/System used to be.

.................................................. ..............................................

You might also consider Rubens advances. The idea is that instead of loading a lot of meanings on the cue bid, and over/underloading other bids, use the cue-bid as a natural transfer, and the next bid, and the next, if necessary, until you use a bid that transfers into the overcall.

so (1H) - 1S - (P) -

2C is a forcing, natural bid.
2D is a forcing, natural bid.
2H is a transfer into spades, presumably showing at least limit values.
2S is not constructive.

So far, there's no gain over standard methods.

so (1C) - 1S - (P) -

2C shows diamonds, indeterminate strength
2D shows hearts, indeterminate strength
2H shows limit+ values in spades
2S is a minimum raise.

This is a great gain over standard methods. You can escape, show two-suited hands in comfort, go horseback riding, you name it.

[Klaymen]

I'll want to consider this. Responding to an overcall is an area that has the biggest room for improvement. It certainly comes up often enough. I'll probably acquire one or two books soon - then if I like the stuff I'll need to convince those I play with. I have a group of interchangeable partners that all play the same system, and something in those books might need to be added to our conventions eventually.

[MNBridge]

........ Responding to an overcall is an area that has the biggest room for improvement. ............

I couldn't agree more especially for myself.

I'll grab those books as well. Thanks.