All Star Tie

[Maine-iac]

OK. Someone please explain to me what happened. I needed to get up early today, so I didn't watch the game. Hubby came to bed after 7 innings, said they were tied 7-7.

This morning, I switch on ESPN before I headed out the door to hear the results. They said a tie. How did this happen? I didn't have the time to listen for more tham 5 minutes or so, and they just kept moaning about it, rather than explaining what happened. Is there some rule about no extra innings for the All-Star game? They played indoors, right? So it wouldn't be called for bad weather, would it?

[Pseudolus]

Both managers wanted to get all their players into the game. They succeeded... but then the game went into extra innings. Neither manager felt comfortable keeping their last pitcher in the game for more work, and went to talk to The Commish. Commish said that the game would end after the third out in the bottom of the 11th inning, even if it were still tied.

I actually think this was the correct decision (and not just because I had to wake up 4 hours later to go to work). The fans got to see the best players in baseball play eleven pretty exciting innings. No sense wearing out a pitcher in an exhibition game. For once, Selig actually makes a good call, and still takes heat for it. Don't know why they couldn't pick an MVP, though. It's not like there's a requirement that it has to come from the winning team.

(It was pretty cool hearing the crowd chant "Let them play! Let them play!". Whoever started that is up on their "Bad News Bears" movies. That's what I call kicking it old school.)

[quentin cassidy]

one of the gripes i heard was that they didn't make the decision that the 11th inning would be the last until the middle of the 11th, so the AL never got to bat knowing that it would be their last chance.

a possible alternative to calling the game so quickly was to allow players to re-enter the game. some of the pitchers only faced 1 or 2 batters, so it's not like they were all worn out.

for a game that's popularity is already hurting with the impending strike and all, i think this decision only hurts the players' images as whiny, rich, lazy spoiled brats. 'waaa, we're too tired to play any more'. suck it up, if we're willing to stay up until 1am or later to watch when we've got to get up for work in a few hours, the least you could do is make it worth our while and finish the game.

does anyone know how many innings the longest all-star game is?

[Ben Kenobi]

1967. 15 innings.

[Drzy]

Curt Schilling's idea: "Play nine innings no matter what. Tell everybody from the start. And then, if it's tied, each team picks one guy, and you decide it with a Home Run Derby."

I like this idea. Protects the pitchers (it's a legitimate concern) and there'll always be a winner.

[Ducky]

How about this for future games.....since they already have the stupid rule that every team has to be represented, let's make a rule that each time has to have 1 knuckleballer on their roster. Those guys can pitch forever without wearing out their arms, so another rule would be that you can't use them until all other pitchers have appeared. That would take care of any ties & help prevent Selig from looking more & more like the jack*** that he truly is.

[Patience]

I think it was the right call. Fell asleep, but woke up during the pow-wow on what to do.

Many of these guys only pitched to 1 or 2 batters, because they were close to their last start. Also even though they didn't throw many pitches they have to warm up all over again, quite a few innings later.

If it was a pitcher from my team I would be pissed.

and I agree they had 11 innings of on of the most exciting all-star games in years. It is a exhibition game. If it were happier times in MLB I am sure the decision would have gone over better.

Does anyone know the reason for no MVP? Its not like it has to go to the guy with the game winning hit, or even to a player on the winning team.

Also, how does this play in Vegas? Were tie bets allowed? I am assuming the bookies & casinos cleaned up.

[Aaron Brachowitz]

Game called due to lack of interest on the part of all involved. Even the fans' boos seemed a bit manufactured. Who really cares whether the NL or the AL wins?

The most ridiculous aspect of the whole evening was the absolutely non-stop nostalgia parade, including the hour-plus (?) pre-game show. Hey, we get it. Baseball has a glorious past. That doesn't change its crappy present. Let the game stand on its own. Buck and McCarver didn't shut up all night, plus the continuous parade of guests in the booth -- way to show confidence in the game being shown.

[Aaron Brachowitz]

Curt Schilling's idea: "Play nine innings no matter what. Tell everybody from the start. And then, if it's tied, each team picks one guy, and you decide it with a Home Run Derby."
Better yet, set up a soccer goal in center field and have each team's rotation attempt free kicks. The catchers can play goalie. Most goals wins.

[Pseudolus]

Best suggestion I've heard so far was from a poster at a statgeek site (http://www.baseballprimer.com/clutch/archives/00003860.shtml):Posted 1:16 a.m., July 10, 2002 (#29) - Warren Spahn
I was already warmed up...i could've pitched at least 2 innings

[Abducens]

Aaron, just goes to show the blind love affair sports media has with baseball. If there's no baseball they have nothing to do this time of year.

On ESPNNews yesterday they ran a ticker with line after line on NL and AL stat leaders. God forbid we just show tennis and NFL/NHL news over and over even though that's all that's going on.

On Sept. 16 when NFL games were postponed, they didn't run tickers for NFL stat leaders. More special treatment for baseball. The media will keep the current system alive for a few more years than it otherwise would survive.

[Rockhound]

A tie in baseball!!

Ted Williams must be turning over in his cryogenic case.

[gloid]

What's really funny(?) is that they changed the name of the MVP award to the Ted Williams award. When he played in All-Star games, he would play the whole game, and they didn't care who got into play. They cared about who won. It's pretty disrespectful to name the award after him and then do that.

Also, they charge $150-175 for a ticket and then don't even finish the game. If I paid that much, I would at least appreciate it if the players I paid to watch cared what happened.

With the looming strike, MLB is going to have a hard time keeping any fans if they pull **** like this.

Plus, the All-Star game went 13 innings in 1987, that is not very long ago. It is ridiculous to call it so soon. What a debacle!!!

[3rookie]

Solution #306

What would a manager do in this situation during the regular season? He would put his 3rd baseman (or whomever) in to pitch, throw his pitcher into the outfield or 1st base, and juggle the fielders around. This would certainly cause the game to end in 1 or 2 innings, and satisfy the paying fans' need for conclusion.

This would bail out the managers who pulled most of the starters way too early to let everyone get into the game (I remember when starting pitchers went 3 full innings if they were effective, and the superstars played at least 6 innings).

If I went to this game (which would be unlikely considering I have boycotted baseball since the '94 strike), it would have driven my last nail into baseball's coffin.

I love baseball, I no longer care for the Major Leagues.

[Dooby Scoo]

All great ideas on what to do about this situation, but does baseball really care what we think!?! Its obvious they don't. So they will continue to screw us. They will continue to make decisions based on the players and owners welfare, when never considering that they need some fans to support them.

I think it would be a good idea if the raised ticket prices so they can pay the players before they are traded to the Yankees.

[Ben Kenobi]

Remember when Jose Canseco got hurt pitching? No way a manager is going to take a chance on getting someone else's position player hurt doing that.

I'm no fan of Bud Selig or most of the other people (labor or management) making decisions for MLB, but this one happens to be right.

[3rookie]

The bottom line is this game needed to be completed. There was no precedent for this decision. If you're worried about getting hurt, then what are you doing even being in this game to begin with? You put a fielder in, you have him throw batting practice, and this game is over in the 12th.

Yes, I remember Jose Canseco getting hurt, but he was "pitching", not throwing meatballs. I also remember dozens of non-pitchers pitching without injury. Also, if you don't want to "risk" somebody else's player, then put in someone from your own team to pitch. It's your own fault for being in that predicament.

[MathGuy]

The bottom line is this game needed to be completed. There was no precedent for this decision.

I always hate it when people say stuff like this. Precedents need to be set. By your own logic, because the precedent has now been set, an uncompleted game will be justified next year.

[Pseudolus]

The problem is that the unwritten rules of the AllStar game ("let everyone play", "the outcome doesn't really matter") have evolved and the written rules haven't kept up. I expect a rule to be put in place before next year's game to fix this - probably one saying that the game is to end after 9 (or 10, or 11) innings even if it's tied.

PS - Unlike some people, I don't mind this one game being lighthearted and not particularly competitive. It's a once-a-year thing, and it's fun to see all these great players enjoying themselves and trying to put on a good show. (Would we have seen Bonds laughing and horsing around with an outfielder who just stole a HR from him in a game that counted in the standings?) Tomorrow the real games start up again, and we can get back to taking seriously what is in essence a children's game.

PPS - On the lack of an MVP: isn't the award given on the field in front of the fans? I don't think that crowd was really in the mood for an awards ceremony.

[3rookie]

That's right. Next year the game could end after 8 innings, because "Remember last year? Sally and Stacy don't wanna pitch this year and there's no one left, so game over." It's a lot easier to pull crap like this when it's already been done.

[Aaron Brachowitz]

I expect a rule to be put in place before next year's game to fix this - probably one saying that the game is to end after 9 (or 10, or 11) innings even if it's tied.
I suggest a US Open type playoff -- bring everybody back the next day and play another full game.

[gloid]

Unfortunately for last night, the precedent had been set. It was set in the past when every game was completed, most recently in 1987.

Why worry about the injuries when there will be a strike in a couple of months?

If this game is played for the fans, they obviously weren't happy with Butt Selig's decision last night. In a close game like that, the fans have the opportunity to see someone do something dramatic to win the game. Bottom line, they were cheated last night.

[Patience]

That's right. Next year the game could end after 8 innings, because "Remember last year? Sally and Stacy don't wanna pitch this year and there's no one left, so game over." It's a lot easier to pull crap like this when it's already been done.

You don't need to influence people at work do you? Because I can't you believe this is a realistic argument.

There are two choices going forward:

a) managers play the superstars for most of the game. Starters go 3, relievers go 2 or until they bat. Starting fielders go 9, and nobody cares if a Bonds or Sosa play all 9, because they are the best. They have fun, but play to win. Reserves are just happy to be there.

If there are extra innings nothing to worry about, plenty of players.

Now some fans will be upset if their favorite isn't in the game. & managers will usually make sure the better reserves get in, espeically if the fan voting didn't match reality.

b) everybody gets in the game. we all see our hometown heros. we want to win, but the end of the game is played by the lessor all-stars. If there are extra innings you make do with what you have. When you run out, its over. Its only an exhibition anyway.

But you are not going to risk a pitcher by having him warm up and pitch a second time or a position player by having him pitch. If you do the manager better be picking his own guy to risk.

Personally I would like to see A). but that is not how this game was played, so I believe they made the right decision for the circumstances, even if they didn't go about it in the best way.

Does anyone really prefer to see Derek Jeter pitching against Luis Gonzalez and feel that since there is an ending it s a better game? Even though they can't throw a strike and walk the winning run around the bases.

[Ultimate Anyone?]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see what the big deal was in calling the game. It was interesting to watch (I missed the pre-game stuff, which sounds like went on-and-on-and-on, so that probably helped), I was entertained, and everyone got to play. I remember little while back where the lone Brewer representative did not play for 2 consecutive (or 2 out of 3) years, and that kinda sucked. I was glad to see everyone, and I didn't feel there was less excitement knowing that the NL had to score to win. (Okay, knowing that Padilla and Santiago were the NL's last hopes kinda took away from the drama, but you get my point.)

The only thing I would've like to have seen done differently is have the managers realize they were out of players BEFORE the middle of the 11th. They should've said something at the end of the 10th, and then make the announcement that the 11th inning was the last inning. That way both teams would've known it was their last chance.

Going forward, I like the idea of capping it off at 11 innings. I think Selig's comment of needing to expand the rosters is AWFUL! Good idea Bud! -- We should expand the All-Star rosters to 40 people, just to make sure we're covered in the event of a 15 inning game where the pitchers will only throw 2 innings max. :roll: Most years they struggle just to get everyone in....

[3rookie]

Does anyone really prefer to see Derek Jeter pitching against Luis Gonzalez and feel that since there is an ending it s a better game? Even though they can't throw a strike and walk the winning run around the bases.

Poor assumption. And even if the game ended this way, for a paying fan in Milwaukee, it is a much better alternative to what actually happened.

Some people believe the right decision was made. I do not.

[Patience]

The paying fan in Milwaukee recieved better baseball & more innings than most ever expect at an all-star game. I can't see what they are crying about.

This was by far the best all-star game in years. I remember plays from the past, but in any given year I don't remember who won. That only comes up when talking about winning streaks.

As for the US Open scenerio, keep in mind the same fans don't get to come back for the finish.

For future extra innings games: At the end of nine innings the managers should have figured out what they had left and decided how long to go at that point. Doing it with 1/2 inning left was too abrupt & not quite fair. The AL might have employed different strategy. I don't believe any pitcher should have been re-used, but they also should allow any player on the bench to be allowed to bat again.

[Dooby Scoo]

Maybe next year we won't have to worry about this because the players will still be on strike or there will be decreased attentance which allows only a few teams to survive. Then Joe Torre's selections will be much easier since all the good players will be on his team. :x

[treyso]

Do people really care that this game went into 11 innings and did not finish. It sounds like most of us weren't watching at that point. I know I got sick of the little side interviews they were doing. Ichiro was at the plate and they were talking to someone else the whole time. I am sure that Japan is real happy about that.

I think the only people that are making a big deal about the ending of this game are the doofs that actually paid $175 for a ticket. Once you get in there, I'd start booing the $5 beers and the $4 brats. Baseball has become a ripoff for the fan and when is it our turn to complain so that someone listens.

Take a lesson from the NFL.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I wonder when they finally discovered they'd been ripped off, regardless of the score?
The All-Star game used to be interesting. I'm glad I was reading a book while it was on in the background, so I didn't waste the time. And that was only the last two innings. Didn't watch the rest. OK, I saw Ichiro ground out to first in the first. That was 6:00 my time, and I didn't watch any of the pre-game. Got busy for three hours, then watched again.
Not only that, but the newly named Ted Williams All-Star MVP award wasn't even presented to anyone.

My solution, to improve the A-S game:
1. Pay the winners $500,000.
2. Pay the winning manager $1,000,000. Maybe he'll be more serious about it.
3. Get rid of interleague play and interleague trades. Less intermingling and more animosity.

Or:
4. Stop playing it. Give each team a three-day break, but stagger them as the NHL does with its 5- or 6-day break. (At least, that's what the Kings get each year.)

[Fiveagain]

Hey Maine-iac, what are the odds that we would both start a thread about this topic at 12:18?

I think they should have named a most valuable player for sure.

[Han Solo]

This once again makes me glad I chose bed over baseball. That's becoming much more frequent nowadays.

[Abducens]

How about

5. Hire pro wrestlers and call it the XLB All Star game. In the event of a tie, two players from opposing teams will race from 1st and 3rd base for possession of a baseball on the pitchers mound.

[Drzy]

Hey Maine-iac, what are the odds that we would both start a thread about this topic at 12:18?

I think they should have named a most valuable player for sure.
Yeah, sorry about starting another, I wanted to see what people thought in poll form. But now that's turning into a third thread about the All-Star game..... stop the insanity!!

[Pseudolus]

Don't worry - now it's a thread about the Pro Bowl. Thank heavens for thread drift!

[Maine-iac]

Hey Maine-iac, what are the odds that we would both start a thread about this topic at 12:18?



Given how seldom I start a Sports thread, especially a non-hockey thread, the odds must be pretty high against it! :D

(But it was 7:18 my time.)

[urysohn]

Don't worry - now it's a thread about the Pro Bowl. Thank heavens for thread drift!
Uh, yeah, sorry 'bout that. :P

[Drzy]

Don't worry - now it's a thread about the Pro Bowl. Thank heavens for thread drift!
I'll go fix this...

[Dr T Non-Fan]

The hockey threads always end up in fights.
NBA threads always end up in the home poster's favor.
Someone always delays the NFL threads to check the replays.
The baseball threads can go on forever, unless it's an All-Star thread.

[Pseudolus]

Press release (http://www.saintsbaseball.com/rel_020710-tie.htm):SAINTS ‘TIE ONE FOR BUD’
TEAM SUSPENDS LONGTIME POLICY, GIVES AWAY TIES FOR TONIGHT’S GAME
ST. PAUL, Minn. – The St. Paul Saints of the independent Northern League will give away neckties featuring Major League Baseball commissioner Bud Selig during tonight’s game at 7:05 p.m. against the Sioux City Explorers.

“Like birds of a feather, some things just go together,” Saints vice-president Tom Whaley said.

“In addition to suspending our club policy which restricts the appearance of neckties on the premises, we’ve petitioned the league to investigate the prospect of having all our games end in tie scores. We thereby reduce the risk of anyone getting hurt physically or emotionally by the random vagaries associated with on-field losses or extra innings. This is cutting edge stuff.”

Since the team was founded in 1993, the Saints have employed a strict no-tie policy at Midway Stadium. The few fans who have entered the ballpark wearing a tie have had them cut in half by ushers. The policy will be lifted indefinitely pending further scrutiny by the club.


(The Saints' team president is Mike Veeck.)

[Pseudolus]

Picture of the tie (http://www.spsaints.com/Photos/seligtie02.jpg)

[Rockhound]

Obviously the problem is that some think the All-star game should mean something, but the way it is played today, it does not. Remeber when people use to say that baseball had the only all-star game that had any semblance of a real game. Remember when Pete Rose ran over Ray Fosse to score.

I'm not sure MLB wants the game to be competitive any more (or if MLB knows what it wants about anything), but if it did, want to make the game competitive again, what should they do?

Some things I've seen:

Pay a bunch of money to the winner (but how much would it take)?
Pay a bunch of money to the winners charity (probably takes less, but would it incent them?)
Play for home field advantage in the world series (meaningful for most, but not all of the players).
Play for location of next year's all-star game (may be meaningful for the owners).
Play for a truckload of steriods (I think we have a winner).

[Pseudolus]

Pay a bunch of money to the winners charity (probably takes less, but would it incent them?)

I've heard that, but then a fan ends up either rooting against kids with cancer or rooting against other little kids with diabetes. Not fun.

[Dr T Non-Fan]

RE the first, and only effective option:
I'd say $500,000 per roster player. Give the losers $100,000 for showing up. (Note that Randy Johnson wouldn't get paid at all.)
Add an extra $10,000 to every player in the winning league. $0 to losers. This would create a mini-incentive for players to coerce someone like Griffey, were he still popular, to drop himself from the starting line-up for someone more productive.

Also, dump all all-star incentives from contracts. The above should take care of all that.

All this might end up in one of two scenarios:
1. All-out war between leagues. DP's broken up, fewer substitutions, etc. It would also slow the movement of players across leagues.
2. Collusion of players to make nice, and to split the winning shares 50/50. Result is same as now.

[Dizzy Atmosphere]

The main attraction of the MLB All-Star Game, as opposed to that of the other major sports, is that the game is played with about the same intensity as a regular season game. This contrasts starkly with the other "no-defense" games, which clearly make them out to be exhibitions. The fact that MLB has made its All-Star game as relevant as the Pro Bowl is another move of anti-marketing genius by Beezlebud.

What amazes me is that two starting pitchers, working on at least four days rest, weren't allowed to pitch a third inning. Clearly there comes a time when you'd want to call a game because of concerns of injuring a pitcher (if the game went another 8 innings, for example), but this wasn't one of those cases at all. The only worthwhile thing that came out of this for me was the deafening boos at the end of the game.