View Full Version : Firearms
09-11-2001, 12:46 AM
Thanks, Kimi, for all your posts about firearms. My roommate and I have been thinking about this firearm issue for a some time now. (She was actually more open to it than I was because her dad was a cop.) Well we finally decided to read the books you recomended (The Truth About Self Defense, In the Gravest Extreme both by Masad Ayoob; and Armed and Female by Quigly Paxton) which, by the way, her dad also recomended. They were very informative. To make a slightly long story (we took lessons, etc.) short, we both just recently decided to become responsible firearm owners. Thought you (and perhaps others) may be interested.
A Flint, Mich., man was awakened one morning to discover an intruder in his bedroom going through his belongings. Clinton Burns, 68, grabbed his .38-cal. revolver from under the seat of his wheelchair and aimed it at the intruder. The suspect then grabbed Burns' wrist and began wrestling him for the gun. "I turned my wrist and pulled the trigger," Burns said. The suspect fell and died draped over Burns' wheelchair. Lieutenant Diane Garrison, commander of the state police post in Flint, commented that she believes people should be able to defend their homes. (The Flint Journal, Flint, MI, 6/13/01)
This one may raise some debate.
Moments after the Lombardy Market in Richmond, Va., was robbed, owner Ralph Watkinson shot the suspect. Watkinson had grabbed his gun and followed the robber down a cobblestone alleyway beside the market. The would-be robber started to get into a car, then suddenly turned back and pointed his gun at the grocer. When he realized his life was in danger, Watkinson raised his own gun and shot the man in what he called a "split second decision...shoot or be shot." (Times-Dispatch, Richmond, VA, 6/23/01)
A Dunn, N.C., man and his wife were awakened about 2 a.m. one Saturday by sounds of someone beating on their back door. Two armed men then kicked in the front door and entered the living room. The suspects allegedly threatened to kill the homeowners. "I begged them not to kill us," said Rastus Hudson, 61. "I told them I'd give them anything we had." Under the pretense of retrieving his wallet, Hudson pulled his handgun from under a mattress and started firing, trying to scare the men away. They did not leave until Hudson shot one of the home invaders in the shoulder. "[He] has a right to protect his home and his family," remarked Maj. Steve West of the Harnett County Sheriff's Dept. (The Fayetteville Observer, Fayetteville, NC, 6/26/01)
An 80-year-old North Little Rock, Ark., man shot and killed an intruder who broke into his home late one Sunday night. The homeowner had been awakened by his granddaughter, who warned him someone was attempting to break in. "He walked out into the hallway with a rifle and saw another man standing at the other end of the hall," said North Little Rock police spokesman Sgt. Jim Scott. The homeowner fired at the man and killed him. Scott noted that state law allows a homeowner to use deadly force against an intruder. (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 7/3/01)
An 85-year-old Leesburg, Fla., man armed with a revolver came to the rescue of his daughter-in-law and two grandchildren when he chased off three home invaders. Betty Ann Ferguson had been awakened about 5:45 a.m. by the sounds of someone breaking into her home. When she discovered her phone line had been cut, she used a cell phone to call her husband who was at work. The call was cut short when three men burst into the home and Ferguson hid in a back bathroom with her children. When the men broke through the bathroom door and demanded money, Ferguson gave them about $300 in cash. As the robbers discussed whether or not to kill her, Ferguson's father-in-law, alerted by his son, drove up in a golf cart and exchanged fire with the men as they fled the scene. (Lake Sentinel, North Lake, FL, 7/4/01)
A 47-year-old man was shot and killed after attacking his estranged wife with a knife late one Sunday. According to Lubbock Police spokesman Bill Morgan, the man attacked his former wife as she got out of her car in front of a relative¹s house. The woman screamed when her ex-husband tried to force her back into her car at knifepoint. He then knocked her to the ground and began attacking her with the knife. A 74-year-old relative came out of the house with a handgun and reportedly shot the attacker once in the head, said Morgan. According to police, a temporary restraining order against the estranged husband had recently expired. (The Lubbock-Avalanche Journal, Lubbock, TX, 7/2/01)
A New Fairfield, Conn., couple was startled late one Thursday evening when two armed men rushed them as they were returning from an evening out. The men forced their way into the couple's home, and a struggle ensued until the homeowner grabbed a gun and fired several shots. The two suspects quickly exited the home and took off in a Chevy Blazer, which was later involved in an accident. The suspects then fled on foot. State troopers searched the area with police dogs, but were unable to locate the men. (Waterbury Republican-American, Waterbury, CT, 6/30/01)
A Burien, Wash., man prevented two men from invading his home one Monday afternoon by firing four shots at the men who then fled the scene. When the men first knocked at his door, the homeowner looked out and, not recognizing them, got his handgun before answering the door. After speaking to the homeowner for a few moments, one man suddenly pulled out a gun and tried to force his way inside. The resident responded by firing his gun, and the two suspects ran off. One suspect was apprehended when he arrived at a local emergency room with gunshot wounds to his arm and hand. The other was not located. (Des Moines News, Des Moines, WA, 6/20/01)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Linda on 2001-09-11 00:55 ]</font>
09-18-2001, 11:50 AM
The state police are of use. They can show up after a crime has been committed and investigate. Hopefully you will still be alive when they show up so you can help with their investigation.
Dr T Non-Fan
09-18-2001, 12:05 PM
Anectdotal evidence? I hope you're using more brainpower than that.
Not that you don't have a good reason. I just haven't seen it yet. Please try harder.
Good for you. If you do not mind sharing, what kind of firearm did you choose?
Oh for heavens sake, can't you gun lovers conduct this love-fest in private. There must be an I love guns forum where you can chat about whose tool is bigger.
Dr T Non-Fan
09-20-2001, 07:06 PM
This is private enough. Stop poking your nose around in places which might offend you.
I suggest not discussing the details, since Kimi may want to know so she can come to your house and use it against you.
09-21-2001, 02:08 AM
Both my roommate and I got 0.40 caliber SIG's. Any thoughts about our selection or anything else?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Linda on 2001-09-22 00:43 ]</font>
I think you and your room mate certainly made a great choice. I think most (civilians and law enforcement) view SIG’s as among the best if not the absolute best. I think most police officers in my area view SIG’s as second to none. I think as far as self-defense SIG’s are, I think, second in expense only to Heckler & Koch (HK). (There are some competition pistols which run in excess of $2,000 or $3,000.) Note that I am not an expert but I think SIG’s have excellent reliability and their accuracy is top notch. I think choosing a self-defense firearm is an individual, personal matter. One must be honest with what makes them feel the most comfortable. I, for example, did not care for the double-action/ single-action mechanism found in all SIG’s. (You may know that I did not choose SIG for my personal protection firearm.)
(Double-action means that the squeeze/pull of the trigger does two things, it draws back the firing pin or hammer and releases it. A double-action trigger pull will be longer and harder than a single-action trigger pull. Single-action means that the only action accomplished by the trigger pull is the release of the firing pin or hammer. In the movies when you see someone point a gun at some one then later pull back the hammer they just took the firearm from a double-action mode to a single-action mode. Many firearms offer a double-action mode for the first shoot. After the first shot the hammer stays cocked and the firearm remains in single-action mode for easier and more accurate renewal shots. Frequently the firearms (like SIG) has a de-cocker which safely lets down the hammer taking the firearm from a single-action mode to a double-action mode.)
I do not like to have two different trigger pulls. I know that the SIG’s trigger mechanism is among the best and smoothest out there but I still prefer the same trigger pull on each shot. It is just one of my personal preferences especially when you may only have one shot.
I also preferred a firearm with a low barrel axis. One problem with firearms is the kick or recoil. What many firearm manufacturers (Glock, H&K’s P7 model) did was to design the firearm to have a barrel which sits lower and closer to the hand. This low-barrel axis gives the kick of the firearm less leverage or in other words gives the shooter more leverage. It would be similar to holding a hammer fully choked up by the head verses down by the handle.
I see you choose the 0.40 caliber. That is one thing that I wish I could change about my H&K P7 M8 (eight 9mm rounds in the magazine). The H&K P7 M10 (ten 0.40 caliber rounds in the magazine) was not only too large for my hand but is also hard to get since it is no longer manufactured. It seems like the firearm community is largely shifting from the 9mm to the 0.40 caliber for more stopping power. But I also heard that the 0.357 SIG (semi-auto is gaining popularity). The other thing I wish I could change about my H&K P7 M8 is the magazine capacity. But because I really liked the single-action-only cocking lever mechanism of the H&K P7’s I was willing to sacrifice all that other good stuff. (Single-action-only cocking lever mechanism of the H&K P7’s is unique. For the firearm to be shot the cocking lever must first be depressed. The cocking lever is located below the trigger guard down to the but of the firearm (or end of the grip). The cocking lever is squeezed by the pinky, ring, and index finger. Once you let go of the firearm the cocking lever springs out and automatically de-cocks. To me it was the safest and best set up: if used, I’d have the single-action accuracy (in accuracy is dangerous), if not in use then basically you have automatic de-cocking, well kind of because you have to let out the cocking lever. Another disadvantage of the H&K P7’s is because it is unlike any other firearm if it is your self-defense choice then you need to practice and may be better off shooting only that firearm which is my case. Also the H&K P7’s can not shoot lead based rounds since it will clog a mechanism, also unique to H&K’s which dampen the kick. For me SIG was just a little behind Glock.
Here's a link to see my firearm. If you look closely you can see the cocking lever that I described.
By the way, which model SIG did you and your room mate get, Linda?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimi on 2001-09-27 02:02 ]</font>
12-12-2001, 01:31 AM
We got the 0.40 caliber SIG Sauer Pro. Although I prefer a steel frame, this model with the polymer frame comes with rails under the barrel, in front the trigger guard to attach accessories like a flash light. I think having a flashlight attached to your firearm at night is very valuable and, to me, worth what ever downside that comes with a polymer frame. As for the differing triggers (double-action first shot/single-action renewal shots), as you have mentioned, for me, the SIG’s excellent trigger mechanism overcame, this shortcoming. SIG is the only brand that I would accept differing trigger pulls/squeezes. I actually prefer the SIG’s two different trigger pulls over the “squishy” Glock trigger. I was surprised how the out-of-the box Glock trigger’s sometimes vary. That also made me a little apprehensive about Glocks.
I also wished the SIG’s had the low barrel axis. But to me, the difference, along with the other aspects, was tolerable.
I believe the stopping power of the 0.357 SIG (semi-auto) is more like a 9mm than it is like the rimmed 0.357 magnum (for revolver).
I did try the HK P7. Thought it was very, very accurate, I did not care for the magazine capacity and that it can not shoot lead bullets due to the recoil-dampening piston/chamber thing. The P7’s cocking lever is a very unique mechanism. What I was warned about, actually, by a doctor, that it can be hard to close your three non-pointer finger fingers which depress the P7’s cocking lever without tweaking/bending your pointer/trigger finger. This can lead to an AD (accidental discharge) or an early discharge when you are just trying to cock it. (Actually he only warned me that if I use the P7 for self defense it should basically be the only firearm I practice with.) We did not think this cocking lever was that bad -- just unique -- and actually the HK P7 was my second choice. But with the 0.40 caliber, magazine capacity and the flash light. I felt the SIG was it. Also the grip for the SIG Pro was adjustable and fit me better than the HK P7. Have you held a HK P7 M13 or P7 M10, Kimi? Now those have large grips.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Linda on 2001-12-12 01:33 ]</font>
I have held a HK P7 M13 (13 round magazine, 9mm) but never a HK P7 M10 (10 round magazine, 0.40 caliber. I think the M10 is very rare and no longer in production. I would have gotten the M13 or M10 if my hands were't so small.
12-12-2001, 07:36 AM
Out of curiousity...why did most of those incident stories involve someone beteween the their 70's and 80's??? Does that say something about how younger generations are approaching the firearm issues? After reading the posts in this thread, I can't say that I'm chomping at the bit to get my own firearm even if I am a single female. Then again, I never grew up around guns.
12-12-2001, 10:18 AM
Where exactly do you people live that you are so worried about your self-protection? Frankly, I think you are a little too obsessed with this issue, your chances of being murdered or robbed are still fairly low in most parts of the country so don't go around trying to justify that you need guns to protect yourself- just admit that you have gun fetish and the thought of having a cold hard steel in your hands makes you hot!
12-12-2001, 10:34 AM
Does anybody else believe that Linda and Kimi are one and the same? (most likely a lonely, overweight, middleaged man located somewhere in the backwoods of Michigan)
12-12-2001, 10:37 AM
<font size=2>I've asked the same thing in the "Make a Suggestion or Report a Problem Here" section.
12-12-2001, 10:50 AM
"""Does anybody else believe that Linda and Kimi are one and the same? """
It would appear so - or perhaps they are the infamous "room mates"
Perhaps they could both change their names to Sybil?
12-12-2001, 11:13 AM
gun toting roomates - Linda, kimi please accept my invitation to the Holiday Informal
I do not think my level of interest or knowledge is based on paranoia but on, to choose a better term, sense of being well-prepared. I don’t think that the risks of getting murdered or killed in a car wreck are very much different, for example. But I do keep my car in top shape, took drivers education when I was young (my parents made me, but I thought it was a good idea), and put on my seat belt. Anyway, I would say my level of fear or paranoia emotional level of preparedness (or whatever term we use here) is about the same for these two perils (hey, a Course 5 term). In other words, I do not strap on my firearm with more “fear” than I -- or I think anyone else, really -- do while buckling my seat belt. Don’t take this the wrong way, however, I do view carrying a firearm very seriously. But I don’t walk around, for example, thinking that any day now I’ll get shot.
But prior to going through this research I think I used view gun owners as kind of paranoid.
As for my gun knowledge, you would be surprised how “average” I am in the firearm community. I know I would have thought that someone posting what I have posted has a high level of expertise but, really, I don’t know that much. Besides, given the propensity for Actuaries to hunger information, one should not be surprised by a bit of research. I think, also, because I had almost no exposure to firearms prior to my research I probably felt more inclined to research. I think acquiring a firearm is not a trivial decision and should be the approached with a attitude of thoroughness.
As for me being Linda. I don’t know how I could prove otherwise in a medium like a discussion board. But SIG people and HKP7 people are about as different choices as you can get. As for the posing of the anecdotal accounts, well, I think almost everyone in the firearm community knows where the articles posted above came from. In one of the NRA's regular periodicals (America’s First Freedom, I think it is bi-monthly) the NRA has a column which lists these events which are researched before posting (you can usually see the News Paper reference).
Grim, thanks for the invitation. But I would be terrible company since I don’t have much time to post.
When William Losh and his girlfriend approached his cabin in Lake Wales, Fla., they saw the screen door was damaged. Thinking someone had broken into his home, Losh picked up his .22-cal. revolver and began to search the house. He discovered an intruder hiding in a closet and instructed him to "Freeze and show me your hands." Losh then told his girlfriend to call the police. The suspect, James Eugene Birk, initially complied with Losh's orders, but then began to taunt Losh, saying, "You might as well shoot me, because I'm not going back to prison." Birk moved his hands down toward his waist and began moving out of the closet. Afraid that the intruder was reaching for a weapon, Losh shot Birk three times until he finally stopped advancing on him. Birk, who was charged with burglary, property damage and probation violations, has a long criminal record, according to Polk County law enforcement officials. (The Lake Wales News, Lake Wales, Fla., 10/11/01)
Albia, Iowa, man was shot and killed after he broke into a home, looking for his ex-girlfriend. Monroe County Sheriff Larry Merrill said Ronald Frye had broken through a window in search of his ex-girlfriend, who was in the home. When homeowner Randy Carr came out of a bedroom, Frye fired a revolver at him, hitting him in the stomach. Carr returned fire with a semi-automatic rifle, striking the interloper in the chest. Frye then left the house and when police arrived they discovered he had collapsed next to his truck. Sheriff Merrill said Carr was "justified in using a firearm to protect himself." (The Des Moines Register, Des Moines, Iowa, 8/28/01)
Wayne County, Ky., man, after breaking into a home, was fatally shot by a woman staying at the residence. Wayne County Sheriff Jim Hill said the intruder was shot with a .22-cal. revolver after entering the home through the back door. He was wearing a nylon stocking mask. Hill noted there have been a number of recent burglary attempts at the house, which is not used as a permanent residence. (The Outlook, Monticello, Ky., 9/5/01)
a Tuesday afternoon, Rockford, Ill., barber William Cross was cutting hair as he has for 34 years, when two masked men entered his shop. One man pointed a gun at Cross and said, "Give it up!" When Cross asked what was happening, the armed man fired a shot, just missing the barber's head. Cross responded by reaching into a drawer for his own gun. His first shot knocked the robber to the floor, but he was still holding onto his gun. Cross then tried to shoot the gun out of the suspect's hand and thinks he was successful, as the man finally dropped his gun. "That's not a good feeling, looking down a gun barrel," Cross said later. Winnebago County sheriff's deputies took the injured gunman into custody and they arrested a second man who was running away from the scene. The barber was shocked when police told him the name of the wounded would-be robber. Cross had been cutting his hair for years. (Rockford Register Star, Rockford, Ill., 9/19/01)
Chris and Tracy Cummings owe their lives to the Christmas present Tracy gave her husband last year-a 9 mm handgun. The Cummings were awakened about 2:00 a.m. on a Tuesday by someone trying to kick in their front door. Cummings grabbed his handgun just before their bedroom door was kicked in and an undetermined number of home invaders began shooting. His wife was shot in the shoulder as she rolled to the floor. Cummings fired back at their assailants, emptying one magazine and starting on another. By the time it was all over, 30 rounds had been exchanged and the suspects fled the scene. The shots fired by the invaders came from a rifle and a handgun, said Sgt. Mike Wilson of the Chatham County police. "I guess they weren't expecting firepower, or for me to have a [firearm]," said Cummings. (Savannah Morning News, Savannah, Ga., 10/3/01)
Gerrish Township, Mich., man discovered two men had broken into his garage. One of the suspected burglars ran off as the homeowner called the police, but he held the other at gunpoint until authorities arrived. Police discovered four stolen cans of beer in the suspect's pockets when they arrested the man. The other suspect later turned himself in. (Houghton Lake Resorter, Houghton Lake, Mich., 5/10/01)
93-year-old Abita, La., man shot and killed an intruder who broke into his home and assaulted him early one Saturday. Leo Pratt heard someone force his front door open. Pratt, after being struck by the intruder, responded by retrieving a .38-cal. handgun he kept at his bedside and shooting his attacker. Pratt then called the St. Tammany Sheriff's office to report the incident. (The Times-Picayune, New Orleans, La., 9/30/01)
Nashville, Tenn., cab driver had his worst fear come true when a fare he picked up early one morning pushed an object into his back and demanded money. The cabbie had become nervous when the man began making rapid requests. The driver reached for his gun for assurance. When his passenger attempted to rob him, the cabbie gave him some money, then fired at him. The wounded robber left the cab, leaving the blood-stained money behind. The suspect was arrested by police several blocks away. (The Tennessean, Nashville, Tenn., 9/11/01)
12-13-2001, 10:49 AM
Here's an anecdote for you. Last year I was lying on the floor in my bedroom. I woke up because I heard a sound. At the time everyone in my apt building except me and my roomates were women. My wallet was sitting on a stack of money on my table in the main area, but this guy passed easy money and a getaway to go into my room instead. He was crawling on his belly for 5 minutes while I was awake (and didn't know he was on my floor). It nearly scared the sh** out of me, the guy was alot bigger and had the intimidating advantage of in retrospect being a f***ing attempted rapist (allegedly). But my adrenaline was pumping and I yelled and chased and luckily he ran out of there. If I had a gun in my hand I probably would have shot the mother****er. If my gun was anywhere other than under my pillow, he might ahve shot me.
Dr T Non-Fan
12-13-2001, 11:51 AM
The best part was where the supposed actuary uses anectdotes instead of statistics.
12-13-2001, 11:53 AM
"The best part was when they paid me!"
12-13-2001, 11:17 PM
I think anecdotes have value. It works against the denomination of people who use firearms to protect them selves and loved ones (not their property, but sometimes you can not assume that intruders have zero willingness to harm you for your property), so often done by liberals.
In firearms self-defense training, you are trained not just how to shoot but, and more importantly, when to shoot. When you consider shooting is basically, when you reasonably can not retreat any further. In Paddyboy1’s occurrence, there may have been a point where, according to the law, she could have shot without even brandishing, and warning (stop or I’ll shoot). But there also was a point which she probably should not have shot, like when the attacker was clearly fleeing. However, I’ve read accounts where people were not even prosecuted when they shot while their attacker was actually fleeing because the attacker was armed with a gun and raised it to shoot. In this case when the attacker raised their gun to shoot they were still in attack mode. This is, by the way, another value of anecdotes. You get to see a real life application of the legal use of lethal force.
I know you’ll start to think, “yeah, Linda is Kimi alright”, with the way she talkes about the “legal use of lethal force”. But in the firearms community, you really do not need to go very far to run into Masad Ayoob’s writings. (Even you anti-gunners may want to try picking through In the Gravest Extreme. After all if pro-gunners are wrong, then you’ll have more rope to hang them.) If you would even consider a firearm for self-defense, I think to skip this book would be irresponsible. And once you read it, well, you will probably start sounding like Kimi and me.
From the Second Amendment Sister web site. I was going to skip the sources [bracketed] but some look interesting.
Myth #1 "Guns are only used for killing"
Compared to about 35,000 gun deaths every year, 2.5 million good Americans use guns to protect themselves, their families, and their livelihoods - there are 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun - five lives are protected per minute - and, of those 2.5 million protective uses of guns, about 1/2 million are believed to have saved lives. 
* Myth #2 "Guns are dangerous when used for protection"
US Bureau of Justice Statistics show that guns are the safest and most effective means of defense. Using a gun for protection results in fewer injuries to the defender than using any other means of defense and is safer than not resisting at all.  The myth that "guns are only used for killing and the myth that "guns are dangerous when used for protection melt when exposed to scientific examination and data. The myths persist because they are repeated so frequently and dogmatically that few think to question the myths by examining the mountains of data available. Let us examine the other common myths.
* Myth #3 "There is an epidemic of gun violence"
Even their claim of an "epidemic of violence is false. That claim, like so many other of their claims, has been so often dogmatically repeated that few think to question the claim by checking the FBI and other data. Homicide rates have been stable to slightly declining for decades except for inner city teens and young adults involved with illicit drug trafficking. We have noticed that, if one subtracts the inner city contribution to violence, American homicide rates are lower than in Britain and the other paragons of gun control. 
The actual causes of inner city violence are family disruption, media violence, and abject poverty, not gun ownership. In the inner city, poverty is so severe that crime has become a rational career choice for those with no hope of decent job opportunities. 
* Myth #4 "Guns cause violence"
For over twenty years it has been illegal for teens to buy guns and, despite such gun control, the African American teenage male homicide rate in Washington, DC is 227 per 100,000 - 20 times the US average!  The US group for whom legal gun ownership has the highest prevalence, middle-aged white men, has a homicide rate of less than 7 per 100,000 - about half of the US average. 
If the "guns-cause-violence theory is correct why does Virginia, the alleged "easy purchase source of all those illegal Washington, DC guns, have a murder rate of 9.3 per 100,000, one- ninth of DC's overall homicide rate of 80.6? [7 ]Why are homicide rates lowest in states with loose gun control (North Dakota 1.1, Maine 1.2, South Dakota 1.7, Idaho 1.8, Iowa 2.0, Montana 2.6) and highest in states and the district with draconian gun controls and bans (District of Columbia 80.6, New York 14.2, California 12.7, Illinois 11.3, Maryland 11.7)?  The "guns- cause-violence and "guns exacerbate violence theories founder. Again, the causes of inner city violence are family disruption, media violence, and abject poverty, not gun ownership.
National Safety Council data show that accidental gun deaths have been falling steadily since the beginning of this century and now hover at an all time low. This means that about 200 tragic accidental gun deaths occur annually, a far cry from the familiar false imagery of "thousands of innocent children. 
Gun bans result in lower gun suicide rates, but a compensatory increase in suicide from other accessible and lethal means of suicide (hanging, leaping, auto exhaust, etc.). The net result of gun bans? No reduction in total suicide rates.  People who are intent in killing themselves find the means to do so. Are other means of suicide so much more politically correct that we should focus on measures that decrease gun suicide, but do nothing to reduce total suicide deaths?
* Myth #5 The "Friends and Family fallacy"
It is common for the public health advocates of gun bans to claim that most murders are of "friends and family". The medical literature includes many such false claims, that "most [murderers] would be considered law abiding citizens prior to their pulling the trigger" and "most shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for protection." 
Not only do the data show that acquaintance and domestic homicide are a minority of homicides,  but the FBI's definition of acquaintance and domestic homicide requires only that the murderer knew or was related to the decedent. That dueling drug dealers are acquainted does not make them "friends". Over three- quarters of murderers have long histories of violence against not only their enemies and other "acquaintances," but also against their relatives. [12,13,14,15] Oddly, medical authors have no difficulty recognizing the violent histories of murderers when the topic is not gun control - "A history of violence is the best predictor of violence."  The perpetrators of acquaintance and domestic homicide are overwhelmingly vicious aberrants with long histories of violence inflicted upon those close to them. This reality belies the imagery of "friends and family" murdering each other in fits of passion simply because a gun was present "in the home."
* Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"
To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."  This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.
The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count. Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator.  Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold. Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. 
Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times,"  but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.
Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse . From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes. Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.
Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.
* Myth #7 "The costs of gun violence are high"
The actual economic cost of medical care for gun violence is approximately $1.5-billion per year - less than 0.2% of America's $800-billion annual health care costs. To exaggerate the costs of gun violence, the advocates of gun prohibition routinely include estimates of "lost lifetime earnings" or "years of productive life lost" - assuming that gangsters, drug dealers, and rapists would be as socially productive as teachers, factory workers, and other good Americans - to generate inflated claims of $20-billion or more in "costs."  One recent study went so far as to claim the "costs" of work lost because workers might gossip about gun violence. 
What fraction of homicide victims are actually "innocent children" who strayed into gunfire? Far from being pillars of society, it has been noted that more than two-thirds of gun homicide "victims" are drug traffickers or their customers. [22,23] In one study, 67% of 1990 homicide "victims" had a criminal record, averaging 4 arrests for 11 offenses.  These active criminals cost society not only untold human suffering, but also an average economic toll of $400,000 per criminal per year before apprehension and $25,000 per criminal per year while in prison.  Because the anti-self-defense lobby repeatedly forces us to examine the issue of "costs," we are forced to notice that, in cutting their violent "careers" short, the gun deaths of those predators and criminals may actually represent an economic savings to society on the order of $4.5 billion annually - three times the declared "costs" of guns. Those annual cost savings are only a small fraction of the total economic savings from guns, because the $4.5 billion does not include the additional savings from innocent lives saved, injuries prevented, medical costs averted, and property protected by guns.
Whether by human or economic measure, we conclude that guns offer a substantial net benefit to our society. Other benefits, such as the feeling of security and self-determination that accompany protective gun ownership, are less easily quantified. There is no competent research that suggests making good citizens' access to guns more difficult (whether by bureaucratic "red tape," taxation, or outright bans) will reduce violence. It is only good citizens who comply with gun laws, so it is only good citizens who are disarmed by gun laws. As evidenced by jurisdictions with the most draconian gun laws (e.g. New York City, Washington, DC, etc.), disarming these good citizens before violence is reduced causes more harm than good. Disarming these good citizens costs more - not fewer - lives.
* Myth #8 "Gun control will keep guns off the street' "
Vicious predators who ignore laws against murder, mayhem, and drug trafficking routinely ignore those existent American gun laws. No amount of well-meaning, wishful thinking will cause these criminals to honor additional gun laws.
Advocates of gun control rarely discuss the enforceability of their proposals, an understandable lapse, since even police state tactics cannot effectively enforce gun bans. As evidence, in Communist China, a country whose human rights record we dare not emulate, 120,000 banned civilian guns were confiscated in one month in 1994.
Existent gun laws impact only those willing to comply with such laws, good people who already honor the laws of common decency. Placing further impediments in the path of good citizens will further disproportionately disarm those good people - especially disarming good, poor people, the people who live in the areas of highest risk.
If "better" data are forthcoming, we are ready to reassess the public policy implications. Until such time, the data suggest that victim disarmament is not a policy that saves lives.
What does save lives is allowing adult, mentally competent, law- abiding citizen access to the safest and most effective means of protection - guns. [26,27]
Brady I and Brady II
The extremists at Handgun Control Inc. boast that "23,000 potential felons"  [emphasis added] were prevented from retail gun purchases in the first month of the Brady Law. Several jurisdictions have reviewed the preliminary Brady Law data which resulted in the initial Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) overestimated appraisal  of the "success" of the Brady Law.
The Virginia State Police, Phoenix Police Department, and other jurisdictions have shown that almost every one of those "potential" felons were not felons or otherwise disqualified from gun ownership. Many were innocents whose names were similar to felons. Misdemeanor traffic convictions, citations for fishing without a license, and failure to license dogs were the types of trivial crimes that resulted in a computer tag that labeled the others as "potential" felons.  In transparent "governmentese," BATF Spokesperson Susan McCarron avers, "we feel [the Brady Law has] been a success, even though we don't have a whole lot of numbers. Anecdotally, we can find some effect." 
Even if the preliminary data had been accurate, that data only showed about 6.3% of retail sales were "possible" felons - consistent with repeated studies showing how few crime guns are obtained in retail transactions. A minuscule number of actual felons has been identified by Brady Law background checks, but the US Department of Justice is unable to identify even one prosecution of those felons. [32 ] In such circumstance, the minimal expected benefit of the Brady Law diminishes to no benefit at all. The National Institute of Justice has shown that very few crime guns are purchased from gun dealers. 93% of crime guns are obtained as black market, stolen guns, or from similar non retail sources.  Since none of Handgun Control Inc.'s Brady I or Brady II suggestions impact on the source of 93% of crime guns, their symbolic nostrums cannot be expected to do anything to reduce crime or violence.
Residential gun dealers
The press and broadcast media have vilified low-volume gun dealers, pejoratively named "kitchen table" dealers, yet the claim that such dealers are the source of a "proliferation of guns on our streets" is contradicted by data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF). Those data show that 43% of gun dealers had no inventory and sold no guns at all. [33 ]In fact, Congressional testimony before enactment of the Firearms Owner Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA) documented that the large number of low-volume gun dealers is a direct result of BATF policy. Prior to FOPA the BATF prosecuted gun collectors who sold as few as three guns per year at gun shows, claiming that they were unlicensed, and therefore illegal, gun dealers. To avoid such harassment and prosecution, thousands of American gun collectors became, at least on paper, licensed gun dealers. Now the BATF and the anti-self-defense lobby claim BATF does not have the resources to audit the paperwork monster it created. Reducing the number of gun dealers will only ensure that guns are more expensive - unaffordable to the poor who are at greatest risk from violence, ensuring that gun ownership becomes a privilege of only the politically connected and the affluent.
Instead of heaping more onerous restrictions upon good citizens or law-abiding gun dealers who are not the source of crime guns, is it not more reasonable - though admittedly more difficult - to target the real source of crime guns? It is time to admit the futility of attacking the supply of legal guns to interdict the less than 1% of the American gun stock that is used criminally. Instead, we believe effort should focus on targeting the actual "black market" in stolen guns. It is equally important to reduce the demand for illicit guns and drugs, most particularly by presenting attractive life opportunities and career alternatives to the inner-city youth that are overwhelmingly and disproportionately the perpetrators and victims of violence in our society.
* Myth #9 "Citizens are too incompetent to use guns for protection"
Nationally good citizens use guns about seven to ten times as frequently as the police to repel crime and apprehend criminals and they do it with a better safety record than the police.  About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are loss than 1 in 26,000. Citizens intervening in crime are less likely to be wounded than the police.
We can explain why the civilian record is better than the police, but the simple truth remains - citizens have an excellent record of protecting themselves and their communities and NOT ONE of the fear mongering fantasies of the gun control lobby has come true.
"Treat cars like guns"
Advocates of increased gun restrictions have promoted the automobile model of gun ownership, however, the analogy is selectively and incompletely applied. It is routinely overlooked that no license or registration is needed to "own and operate" any kind of automobile on private property. No proof of "need" is required for automobile registration or drivers' licensure. Once licensed and registered, automobiles may be driven on any public road and every state's licenses are given "full faith and credit" by other states. There are no waiting periods, background checks, or age restrictions for the purchase of automobiles. It is only their use - and misuse - that is regulated.
Although the toll of motor vehicle tragedies is many times that of guns, no "arsenal permit" equivalent is asked of automobile collectors or motorcycle racing enthusiasts. Neither has anyone suggested that automobile manufacturers be sued when automobiles are frequently misused by criminals in bank robberies, drive-by shootings, and all manner of crime and terrorism. No one has suggested banning motor vehicles because they "might" be used illegally or are capable of exceeding the 55 mph speed limit, even though we know "speed kills." Who needs a car capable of three times the national speed limit? "But cars have good uses" is the usual response. So too do guns have good uses, the protection of as many as 2.5-million good Americans every year.
Complete, consistent, and constitutional application of the automobile model of gun ownership could provide a rational solution to the debate and enhance public safety. Reasonable compromise on licensing and training is possible. Where state laws have been reformed to license and train good citizens to carry concealed handguns for protection, violence and homicide have fallen. [11,26,27] Even unarmed citizens who abhor guns benefit from such policies because predators cannot determine in advance who is carrying a concealed weapon.
Fear mongering and the gun control lobby
In opposing progressive reforms that restore our rights to self- protection, the anti-self-defense lobby has claimed that reform would cause blood to run in the streets, that inconsequential family arguments would turn into murderous incidents, that the economic base of communities would collapse, and that many innocent people would be killed [26,27] In Florida, the anti- self-defense lobby claimed that blood would run in the streets of "Dodge City East," the "Gunshine State" --- but we do not have to rely on irrational propaganda, imaginative imagery, or political histrionics. We can examine the data.
Data, not histrionics
One-third of Americans live in the 22 progressive states that have reformed laws to allow good citizens to readily protect themselves outside their homes. [26,27] In those states crime rates are lower for every category of crime indexed by the FBI Uniform Crime Reports.  Homicide, assault, and overall violent crime are each 40% lower, armed robbery is 50% lower, rape is 30% lower, and property crimes are 10% lower.  The reasonable reform of concealed weapon laws resulted in none of the mayhem prophesied by the anti-self-defense lobby. In fact, the data suggest that, providing they are in the hands of good citizens, more guns "on the street" offer a considerable benefit to society - saving lives, a deterrent to crime, and an adjunct to the concept of community policing.
As of 12/31/94, Florida had issued 188,106 licenses and not one innocent person had been killed or injured by a licensed gun owner in the 6 years post-reform. Of the 188,106 licenses, 17 (0.0001%) were revoked for misuse of the firearm. Not one of those revocations were associated with any injury whatsoever.  In opposing reform, fear is often expressed that "everyone would be packing guns," but, after reform, most states have licensed fewer than 2% (and in no state more than 4%) of qualified citizens. 
Notwithstanding gun control extremists' unprophetic histrionics , the observed reality was that crime fell, in part, because vicious predators fear an unpredictable encounter with an armed citizen even more than they fear apprehension by police  or fear our timid and porous criminal justice system. It is no mystery why Florida's tourists are targeted by predators - predators are guaranteed that, unlike Florida's citizens, tourists are unarmed.
Those who advocate restricting gun rights often justify their proposals "if it saves only one life." There have been matched state pair analyses, crime trend studies, and California county- by-county research  demonstrating that licensing law-abiding, mentally-competent adults to carry concealed weapons for protection outside their homes saves many lives, so gun prohibitionists should support such reforms, if saving lives is truly their motivation.
Importantly, the proponents of the automobile model of gun ownership fail to note that controls appropriate to a privilege (driving) are inappropriate to a constitutional right (gun ownership and use). Let there be no doubt. The Supreme Court has repeatedly acknowledged an individual right to keep and bear arms.  It is specifically the "weapons of war" - militia weapons - that are protected. The intent of the Second Amendment was to ensure that, by guaranteeing the individual right to arms, a citizen militia could always oppose a tyrannical federal government. That the Supreme Court has acknowledged the right, but done little to protect that right, is reminiscent of the sluggishness of the Supreme Court in protecting other civil rights before those rights became politically fashionable. Need we be reminded that it has taken over a century for the Supreme Court to meaningfully protect civil rights guaranteed to African Americans in the Fourteenth Amendment?
Besides Second Amendment guarantees of the pre-existent right to keep and bear arms, there are Ninth,  Tenth,  and Fourteenth Amendment,  as well as "natural right"  guarantees to self-protection.
Since 1980, of thirty-nine law review articles addressing the Supreme Court case law and history of the right to keep and bear arms, thirty-five support the individual right view and only four support the "collective right only" view  (and three of these four are authored or co-authored by employees of the anti-selfdefense lobby). One would never guess such a legal and scholarly mismatch from the casual misinterpretations of the right in the medical literature and popular press. The error of the gun prohibitionist view is also evident from the fact that their "collective right only" theory is exclusively an invention of the twentieth century "gun control" debate - a concept of which neither the Founding Fathers nor any pre-1900 case or commentary seems to have had any inkling.
California and Concealed Weapons
California has been studied and we discover that the counties that have the lowest rates of concealed weapon licensees have the highest rates of murder and the counties with the highest rates of concealed license issuance have the lowest rates of murder. 
It has also been noted that current California law gives considerable discretion to police chiefs and county sheriffs regarding the issuance of Concealed Weapon Licenses. Particularly in urban jurisdictions, abuse of that discretion is common. The result? In many jurisdictions only the affluent and politically connected are issued such licenses. In California few women and virtually no minorities are so licensed, even though poor minorities are the Californians at greatest risk from violence.
The police do not have a crystal ball. Murderers, rapists, and robbers do not schedule their crimes or notify the police in advance, so the police cannot be where they are needed in time to prevent death and injury. They can only arrive later to count the bodies and, hopefully, apprehend the predators.
There have been state-by-state analyses, county-by-county research, and crime trend studies. All the research shows that allowing good citizens to protect themselves outside their homes is a policy that saves lives. The anti-self defense lobby advances many proposals in hopes that it will "save only one life." Reform of concealed carry laws is a policy that saves many lives, so it is a policy that should be supported by the gun control lobby, if saving lives is really their interest.
Will Stockton base its policy on experience and sound data? or will Stockton fall prey to misinformation, fear, prejudice, and imaginative false imagery? 
We beg you. Let Stockton's good citizens protect themselves, their loved ones, and their livelihoods. The ordinance before you costs no money and it will save many lives.
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 United Press. "China seizes 120,000 guns.? October 21, 1994.
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 Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall Issue?: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994.
 Aborn R, President of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to the Editor. Washington Post. September 30, 1994.
 Thomson Charles, Associate Director for Law Enf
 Halbrook SP. "Another Look at the Brady Law." Washington Post. October 8, 1994. p A-18.
 Howlett D. "Jury Still Out on Success of the Brady Law." USA Today. December 28, 1994. p A-2.
 Harris J, Assistant Attorney General, US Department of Justice. Statement to the Subcommittee on Crime and Criminal Justice, Committee on the Judiciary, US Gouse of Representatives concerning Federal Firearms Prosecutions. September 20, 1994.
 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, US Department of the Treasury. ATF News.. Washington DC: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. FY-93-38. 1993.
 Wright JD and Rossi PH. Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms. Hawthorne, NY: Aldine de Gruyter. 1986.
 Suter EA, Morgan RE, Cottrol RJ, et al. "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms - A Primer for Physicians." Kansas Journal of Law & Public Policy. Spring 1995, forthcoming.
 Johnson NJ. "Beyond the Second Amendment: An Individual Right to Arms Viewed through the Ninth Amendment." Rutgers Law Journal. Fall 1992; 24 (1): 1-81.
 Amar AR. "The Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment." Yale Law Journal. 1992; 101: 1193-1284.; Winter 1992; 9: 87-104.;
 Kates D. "The Second Amendment and the Ideology of Self-Protection." Constitutional Commentary. Winter 1992; 9: 87-104.
 Articles supportive of the individual rights view include: Van Alstyne W. "The Second Amendment and the Personal Right to Arms." Duke Law Journal. 1994; 43: 6.; Amar AR. "The Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment." Yale Law Journal. 1992; 101: 1193-1284.; Winter 1992; 9: 87-104.; Scarry E. "War and the Social Contract: The Right to Bear Arms." Univ. Penn. Law Rev. 1991; 139(5): 1257-1316.; Williams DL. "Civic Republicanism and the Citizen Militia: The Terrifying Second Amendment" Yale Law Journal. 1991; 101:551-616.; Cottrol RJ and Diamond RT. "The Second Amendment: Toward an Afro-Americanist Reconsideration." The Georgetown Law Journal. December 1991: 80; 309-61.; Amar AR. "The Bill of Rights as a Constitution" Yale Law Journal. 1991; 100 (5): 1131-1210.; Levinson S. "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" Yale Law Journal. 1989; 99:637-659.; Kates D. "The Second Amendment: A Dialogue." Law and Contemporary Problems. 1986; 49:143.; Malcolm JL. Essay Review. George Washington U. Law Review. 1986; 54: 452-464.; Fussner FS. Essay Review. Constitutional Commentary. 1986; 3: 582-8.; Shalhope RE. "The Armed Citizen in the Early Republic." Law and Contemporary Problems. 1986; 49:125-141.; Halbrook S. "What the Framers Intended: A Linguistic Interpretation of the Second Amendment." Law and Contemporary Problems. 1986; 49:151-162.; Kates D. "Handgun Prohibition and the Original Meaning of the Second Amendment." Michigan Law Review. 1983; 82:203-73. Halbrook S. "The Right to Bear Arms in the First State Bills of Rights: Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Vermont, and Massachusetts." Vermont Law Review 1985; 10: 255-320.; Halbrook S. "The Right of the People or the Power of the State: Bearing Arms, Arming Militias, and the Second Amendment." Valparaiso Law Review. 1991; 26:131-207.; Tahmassebi SB. "Gun Control and Racism." George Mason Univ. Civil Rights Law Journal. Winter 1991; 2(1):67-99.; Reynolds. "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Under the Tennessee Constitution." Tennessee Law Review. Winter 1994; 61:2. Bordenet TM. "The Right to Possess Arms: the Intent of the Framers of the Second Amendment." U.W.L.A. L. Review. 1990; 21:1.-30.; Moncure T. "Who is the Militia - The Virginia Ratifying Convention and the Right to Bear Arms." Lincoln Law Review. 1990; 19:1-25.; Lund N. "The Second Amendment, Political Liberty and the Right to Self-Preservation." Alabama Law Review 1987; 39:103.-130.; Morgan E "Assault Rifle Legislation: Unwise and Unconstitutional." American Journal of Criminal Law. 1990; 17:143-174.; Dowlut, R. "Federal and State Constitutional Guarantees to Arms." Univ. Dayton Law Review. 1989.; 15(1):59-89.; Halbrook SP. "Encroachments of the Crown on the Liberty of the Subject: Pre-Revolutionary Origins of the Second Amendment." Univ. Dayton Law Review. 1989; 15(1):91-124.; Hardy DT. "The Second Amendment and the Historiography of the Bill of Rights." Journal of Law and Politics. Summer 1987; 4(1):1-62.; Hardy DT. "Armed Citizens, Citizen Armies: Toward a Jurisprudence of the Second Amendment." Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. 1986; 9:559-638.; Dowlut R. "The Current Relevancy of Keeping and Bearing Arms." Univ. Baltimore Law Forum. 1984; 15:30-32.; Malcolm JL. "The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms: The Common Law Tradition." Hastings Constitutional Law Quarterly. Winter 1983; 10(2):285-314.; Dowlut R. "The Right to Arms: Does the Constitution or the Predilection of Judges Reign?" Oklahoma Law Review. 1983; 36:65-105.; Caplan DI. "The Right of the Individual to Keep and Bear Arms: A Recent Judicial Trend." Detroit College of Law Review. 1982; 789-823.; Halbrook SP. "To Keep and Bear 'Their Private Arms'" Northern Kentucky Law Review. 1982; 10(1):13-39.; Gottlieb A. "Gun Ownership: A Constitutional Right." Northern Kentucky Law Review 1982; 10:113-40.; Gardiner R. "To Preserve Liberty -- A Look at the Right to Keep and Bear Arms." Northern Kentucky Law Review. 1982; 10(1):63-96.; Kluin KF. Note. "Gun Control: Is It A Legal and Effective Means of Controlling Firearms in the United States?" Washburn Law Journal 1982; 21:244-264.; Halbrook S. "The Jurisprudence of the Second and Fourteenth Amendments." George Mason U. Civil Rights Law Review. 1981; 4:1-69. Wagner JR. "Comment: Gun Control Legislation and the Intent of the Second Amendment: To What Extent is there an Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms?" Villanova Law Review. 1992; 37:1407-1459. The following treatments in book form also conclude that the individual right position is correct: Malcolm JL. To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo-American Right. Cambridge MA: Harvard U. Press. 1994.; Cottrol R. Gun Control and the Constitution (3 volume set). New York City: Garland. 1993.; Cottrol R and Diamond R. "Public Safety and the Right to Bear Arms" in Bodenhamer D and Ely J. After 200 Years; The Bill of Rights in Modern America. Indiana U. Press. 1993.; Oxford Companion to the United States Supreme Court. Oxford U. Press. 1992. (entry on the Second Amendment); Cramer CE. For the Defense of Themselves and the State: The Original Intent and Judicial Interpretation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Westport CT: Praeger Publishers. 1994. Foner E and Garrity J. Reader's Companion to American History. Houghton Mifflin. 1991. 477-78. (entry on "Guns and Gun Control"); Kates D. "Minimalist Interpretation of the Second Amendment" in E. Hickok (ed.), The Bill of Rights: Original Meaning and Current Understanding. Univ. Virginia Press. 1991.; Halbrook S. "The Original Understanding of the Second Amendment." in Hickok E (editor) The Bill of Rights: Original Meaning and Current Understanding. Charlottesville: U. Press of Virginia. 1991. 117-129.; Young DE. The Origin of the Second Amendment. Golden Oak Books. 1991.; Halbrook S. A Right to Bear Arms: State and Federal Bills of Rights and Constitutional Guarantees. Greenwood. 1989.; Levy LW. Original Intent and the Framers' Constitution. Macmillan. 1988.; Hardy D. Origins and Development of the Second Amendment. Blacksmith. 1986.; Levy LW, Karst KL, and Mahoney DJ. Encyclopedia of the American Constitution. New York: Macmillan. 1986. (entry on the Second Amendment); Halbrook S. That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right. Albuquerque, NM: U. New Mexico Press. 1984.; Marina. "Weapons, Technology and Legitimacy: The Second Amendment in Global Perspective." and Halbrook S. "The Second Amendment as a Phenomenon of Classical Political Philosophy." -- both in Kates D (ed.). Firearms and Violence. San Francisco: Pacific Research Institute. 1984.; U.S. Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary. United States Congress. 97th. Congress. 2nd. Session. February 1982. regarding incorporation of the Second Amendment: Aynes RL. "On Misreading John Bingham and the Fourteenth Amendment." Yale Law Journal. 1993; 103:57-104.; The minority supporting a collective right only view: Ehrman K and Henigan D. "The Second Amendment in the 20th Century: Have You Seen Your Militia Lately?" Univ. Dayton LawJReview. 1989; 15:5-58 and Henigan DA. "Arms, Anarchy and the Second Amendment." Valparaiso U. Law Review. Fall 1991; 26: 107-129. -- both written by paid general counsel of Handgun Control, Inc.; Fields S. "Guns, Crime and the Negligent Gun Owner." Northern Kentucky Law Review. 1982; 10(1): 141-162. (article by non-lawyer lobbyist for the National Coalition to Ban Handguns); and Spannaus W. "State Firearms Regulation and the Second Amendment." Hamline Law Review. 1983; 6:383-408. In addition, see: Beschle. "Reconsidering the Second Amendment: Constitutional Protection for a Right of Security." Hamline Law Review. 1986; 9:69. (conceding that the Amendment does guarantee a right of personal security, but arguing that personal security can constitutionally be implemented by banning and confiscating all guns). Though not in the legal literature, for arguably the most scholarly treatment supporting the "collective right only" view, see: Cress LD. "An Armed Community: The Origins and Meaning of the Right to Bear Arms." J. Am. History 1984; 71:22-42.
 Kates DB. "Bigotry, Symbolism and Ideology in the Battle over Gun Control" in Eastland, T. The Public Interest Law Review 1992. Carolina Academic Press. 1992
12-14-2001, 08:59 AM
On 2001-12-13 23:17, Linda wrote:
If you would even consider a firearm for self-defense, I think to skip this book would be irresponsible. And once you read it, well, you will probably start sounding like Kimi and me.<font size=2>Hey now, we already know how to copy and paste. :wink:
Your comments about having a flashlight attached to your firearm sound insightful. I have been starting to wonder a little if that is something I did not consider enough. I've seen a laser attached to the front of the HK P7 trigger guard. But have never seen flashlight attached. I don't think it is possible to create rails to hold the standard firearm flash light attachment because the HK P7 has a steel frame. Hmmm.
I even just saw an add for an attachment that is both laser and flash light in one. I would be concerned, however, if too much brightness is sacrificed for the laser feature. I've heard an instructor say that a laser can act as a deterrent when the attacker sees it shining on his or her center of mass. Hmm.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kimi on 2001-12-20 00:09 ]</font>
12-20-2001, 11:18 PM
I found from several sources that most acts of violence occur at night. It was actually only towards the end of my decision making process that I found how valuable a firearm flashlight attachment is. Actually, it was my room mate who alerted me to how valuable this attachment is. Otherwise we were both going to get the steal frame Sig. I also think I've heard in one of your posts that when dialing 911, etc., you want things simple and efficient. At night, with out a firearm flashlight attachment it takes a minimum of all your hands to aim because you can not see with out the flashlight. One problem, however, is that most holsters are not made to accommodate the flash light attachment.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Linda on 2001-12-20 23:22 ]</font>
12-20-2001, 11:39 PM
Sorry, this may be off track as far as the thread is going, but I think WC chicks are almost as hot as Kimi's gunbarrel after a hard day of target practice.
12-21-2001, 07:08 AM
Only problem with a flashlight is whoever can see it can also aim *at* it too, don't you think? Would it not be better to remain concealed yourself in the darkness?
12-21-2001, 09:54 AM
Night vision equipment would work much better.
On 2001-12-21 07:08, Han Solo wrote:
Only problem with a flashlight is whoever can see it can also aim *at* it too, don't you think? Would it not be better to remain concealed yourself in the darkness?
Yes, that is right. Now I remember why I thought a flashlight was not as beneficial.
On 2001-12-21 09:54, Grim wrote:
Night vision equipment would work much better.
Yeah, but Night Vision equipment is fairly expensive. Although I have not yet researched this much, basically, there are three "generations", generation III being the best running about $3,000 or so for a hand held device. I thought I would eventually get to researching this but never got to it. I was thinking of a middle of the road Generation II, single eye that can be attached to my Kevlar helmet as well as used as a hand held device. I’ve heard there are “reconditioned” models.
12-31-2001, 11:27 AM
On 2001-12-30 03:58, Kimi wrote:
Yeah, but Night Vision equipment is fairly expensive. Although I have not yet researched this much, basically, there are three "generations", generation III being the best running about $3,000 or so for a hand held device.<font size=2>...yeah, and that's only the declassified stuff.
I thought this letter srom the Second Amendment Sisters' was interesting.
Letter of the week
November 5, 2001
A GUN THAT WAS NEVER FIRED SAVED MY LIFE
My first husband beat me. During the divorce phase, he broke into the house during the middle of the night by breaking down the front door. I grabbed my gun from under my pillow and only managed to get half-raised up in the bed before he got to the bedroom door.
He turned on the light and stood there with his arms stretched out, hands on the door frame, screaming he was going to kill me. Suddenly he stopped yelling and said, "You've got your gun there don't you?" I had it under the covers, pointed at him. When I said, "Yes, and I'll use it if you don't leave."
He knew I could shoot and I wasn't afraid of guns, so he left. The gun saved my life. He had been in a rage when he broke in. Nothing else would have stopped him. If I had tried to use a knife or a bat, he would have used them on me instead.
At 5'1', 115 pounds, I was no match for him and he knew it.
Madeline in CA
We're truly glad that you had both the tool (a firearm) and the training to protect yourself from someone who obviously meant you dire harm.
This is what SAS is all about - protecting our human right of self-defense. We strongly believe that how someone defends themselves is a matter of choice. We also believe that prevention is the best medicine.
Your story a perfect example of having a firearm and not having to fire it to prevent a tragedy. So often all we hear is the same old rhetoric that having a firearm in the home is dangerous and you have proven the fallacy of that. In Liberty,
The Second Amendment Sisters, Inc.
Bobby Wolfe was locking the front door of his Moon Lake, Miss., store one night when a man came around the icebox near the door, pointed a gun and demanded money. “He had a gun in his hand, and the other hand was over his face,” Wolfe recalled. The storekeeper dropped and pulled a .38-cal. revolver from his pocket. “We think the robbers shot first and Mr. Wolfe returned fire,” stated Cuohoma County Sheriff Andrew Thompson of the exchange that followed. When Wolfe took off running for his nearby home, he encountered a second gunman who began firing at him. “He shot two or three times, and I shot one more time,” said Wolfe. Within five minutes of the robbery, one gunman was dead, Wolfe was wounded, and police picked up three suspects—one of whom was mortally wounded—making a getaway. Wolfe later said of the men, whom he recognized, “ … I’m sure they intended to kill me because they know I’d recognize them.” (The Clarksdale Press Register, Clarksdale, Miss., 10/29/01)
A 32-year-old man was shot and killed in North Hollywood when he slashed through a door screen with a knife and threatened to kill everyone inside. The man, identified as Tony Saucedo, allegedly had assaulted his ex-girlfriend in her home. She then ran to a neighbor’s home. A witness said Saucedo, knife in hand, began searching for her. He approached the wrong house and was shot once in the chest as he cut through the screen and attempted to force his way inside. (The Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, Calif., 10/16/01)
An Allentown, Pa., man shot two men after they broke into his home. The resident, Joshua Johnston, was upstairs when he heard noises. Johnston went downstairs with a shotgun, and the intruders—wearing ski masks—approached him. He thought one intruder was reaching for a gun so he shot them. The pair apparently were acquaintances of Johnston; it was reported that one of the men had threatened to break into Johnston’s home to collect a debt. “He didn’t realize he knew the two men until he shot them,” said South Side police Sgt. Dan Bonenburger. (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Pittsburgh, Pa., 10/17/01)
A 78-year-old Franklin, Ind., woman was rudely awakened at 1 o’clock one morning by a loud banging sound at the back of her house. When she discovered a man kicking in the wall next to her back door, she picked up her .25-cal. handgun and dialed 9-1-1. While she was on the phone with police, the would-be intruder kicked a large hole in her wall and tried to push his way into the house. The resident ordered him to stop and, when he did not cooperate, she fired a shot at him. The man backed out of the hole and was met by police, reported Officer John Moore. (Indianapolis Star, Indianapolis, Ind., 10/24/01)
When a Leesville, Ohio, store owner discovered an unwelcome after-hours visitor in his bait and tackle shop, he pulled out a .22-cal. revolver and held the burglary suspect for police. Lieutenant Shane Steele of the Carroll County Sheriff Dept. said there were no struggles or injuries involved in the capture. The owner “detained the suspect until we got down there,” said Steele. (The Times-Reporter, New Philadelphia, Ohio, 10/24/01)
The manager of a Citgo gas station/mini-mart shot and killed a robbery suspect when the man appeared to be reaching for his gun. The manager had observed a female clerk being robbed at gunpoint on the store’s video monitor. When the manager confronted the suspect at the front of the store, he said the robber appeared to be reaching into his waistband, so the manager shot him. According to Angelique Cook-Hayes, a police spokeswoman, the would-be robber was carrying a BB gun that resembled a semi-automatic handgun. (The Baltimore Sun, Baltimore, Md., 10/28/01)
An elderly man shot an intruder after the man forced his way into a house and assaulted the homeowner and his wife. The couple had heard noises from the back of their house, then they saw a stranger walking from the back yard to the front yard. When they went to their front door to see what was going on, the stranger forced his way into the home and a brief struggle ensued, with the intruder pushing and grabbing at the homeowners. When the interloper then bolted toward the back of the house, the homeowner grabbed his gun from a bedroom and shot his attacker when he again tried to assault him. (The Post and Courier, Charleston, S.C., 10/7/01)
A 77-year-old woman shot one of two men as they tried to break into her home early one morning. The woman told deputies she had been awakened about 1:30 in the morning when she heard someone banging loudly on her back door. The homeowner, who lives alone, grabbed her .38-cal. handgun and fired four shots, striking one intruder as he attempted to climb through a bedroom window. The suspects fled in a car and then crashed into a guardrail on a nearby highway. (Lexington Herald-Leader, Lexington, Ky., 10/30/01)
The Drunken Actuary
01-16-2002, 11:21 PM
:lol:OMG I just read this entire thread. What a friggin' hoot. The best part is how Kimi/Linda tries to maintain the charade that he (gotta be a he right?) is two people even after the bluff was called and confirmed by Traci.
I have to say though, after reading all those sobering anectdotes, I am going to go out and load up on AK-47s and other automatic weapons in case someone tries to rob the gas station I work nights at. Gotta pass an exam soon so I can quit that job!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: TDA on 2002-01-16 23:22 ]</font>
FYI …(Also, I thought I would also provide some comments wit h some of the articles.)
An East Hartford, Conn., pawn shop employee shot and killed one of two masked men when they attempted to rob the store. Bill Kane was working in the rear of Tom's Pawn Shop about 5:30 one Tuesday evening when two masked men armed with metal pipes entered the store. Kane's coworker, Ralph Lane, was working at a jewelry bench at the front of the store when the men came in and began swinging the pipes and demanding that the safe be opened. When one robber hit Lane, he pressed an alarm button that summoned police. The second robber headed toward the back of the store. Kane warned the approaching miscreant that he was armed, but the man continued toward him with a metal pipe. Kane then drew his .380-cal. handgun and shot the robber. Upon hearing the shots, the robber's cohort fled the scene. (The Hartford Courant, Hartford, Conn., 11/21/01)
Pipe’s (as well as knives) are vied as being able to inflict grave bodily injury, -- Kimi
A West Side Chicago resident shot and killed an intruder in his home when the man stormed into his bedroom and demanded to see a part of his wife's anatomy. Curtis Reed kicked open the basement door of the apartment building and ran up the back stairs directly into the couple's bedroom. "He said to the woman, 'show me your ... ,' and at that point, the husband fired," said Area 4 Violent Crimes Detective Mike Miller. Reed did not appear to have stolen anything from the home, Miller reported. (Chicago Sun-Times, Chicago, Ill., 11/23/01)
A Smyrna, Ga., man's career as a burglar "turned on a dime," according to Fulton County police. The intruder had used a screwdriver to break into a carport window and enter a home in South Fulton County. The man quickly picked up a television set and took it out to his car. Then he returned to the house and entered a back bedroom where he accidentally dropped some change on the floor. When he bent down to retrieve the money, he came face-to-face with a frightened Christopher Daniel who was hiding under the bed. Daniel, who lives in the home with his parents, had called the police with the phone he still held in one hand. In the other hand was a .357 Mag. handgun from which he fired, hitting the intruder three times. Police arrived within minutes and charged the intruder with burglary. If the man hadn't dropped the coins, he might have made a clean getaway, said Wenda Phifer, a Fulton County police spokeswoman. (The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Atlanta, Ga., 11/28/01)
When Virginia Delaney returned home from shopping, she noticed some things out of place: A bedroom fan was turned around, and her VCR was nearly pulled out of the entertainment center. Delaney then picked up her shotgun and searched the house. Upon discovering an interloper in the laundry room, she escorted him to her bedroom and made him empty his pockets. The would-be burglar complied, handing over a cell phone, a pack of cigarettes and four pennies. Delaney allowed the intruder to leave, and he walked across the street to his house. Delaney then phoned police and reported her neighbor, whom police later arrested. (The Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, Okla., 12/04/01)
I would say searching the house when you know someone has broken in is very dangerous. It would have been a lot better to call the police and retreat to a safe location (with the firearm). (In a purely retreat mode laws permit this type of firearm transport.) In some jurisdictions if she shot in response to getting attacked while searching her house, she may face unlawful use of lethal force charges because when she seem to have the option to retreat she seem to instead advance. (FYI: In my, and I think most, areas you may call to ask police to escort you to your car. My company brought in a police officer to speak about safety. He said, yes, any time any day, 911, and get an escort to your car. He explained that 911 will ask if it is an emergency and, provided that if it is not, you may have to wait probably no longer than 20 minutes or so. The officer said making this offer does not swamp them. In fact hardly anyone ever takes them up on it which is why they are trying to make people more aware of the offer.) -- Kimi.
An Elsmere, Ky., man was shot and killed by a clerk after he tried to rob a Covington, Ky., convenience store. The crook, Perry Pinkelton, had brandished a handgun and demanded money from a store clerk, reported Covington Police Capt. Charles Gurren. When another store employee, armed with a handgun, confronted him, the robber fired his gun three times, but missed. The armed employee returned fire, shooting the robber several times. A neighbor later reported that, "Two weeks ago, someone put a gun in [the owner's] face and robbed him." (The Cincinnati Enquirer, Cincinnati, Ohio, 11/13/01)
A 61-year-old Elkhart, Ind., man thwarted two would-be robbers who had broken into his home one night. The resident had been resting in his bedroom when he heard glass breaking. He grabbed his handgun and confronted the two intruders, who turned and fled after the resident tried to fire his gun, but they earned a reprieve when it jammed. The men had entered the home by breaking the glass in a door and turning the deadbolt key inside. (The Truth, Elkhart, Ind., 11/08/01)
A woman shot and injured a gunman in her yard early one Sunday, cutting short his assault on her and her children. Jaquie Creazzo and her three daughters were forced to flee their home after smoke from a car fire billowed into the house. Once they were outside, Justin Michael Getz came screaming toward the wheelchair-bound woman and her family, firing two handguns at them. "He was loaded for bears," Creazzo said. Her daughters and two nearby firefighters ducked for cover from the erratic gunfire, but Creazzo drew her own gun and fired several shots, hitting her attacker in the leg. Getz was the ex-boyfriend of Creazzo's eldest child, and, according to Creazzo, had threatened to kill the family two days earlier when the girl refused to see him again. "I'm certain if I hadn't responded, none of us would be here today," Creazzo said of the incident. "He had made threats to kill each and every one of us." (The Denver Post, Denver, Colo., 11/23/01)
I figure out how to get more than the current month’s accounts. I also figured out how to search and did one with key word, female. Most are females as victims; some are females as firearm uses and, I think one with a female criminal. See results, and my comments below:
Chicago Tribune, Chicago, IL, 4/13/01; State: IL; American Rifleman Issue:
Store owner Anselmo Nieves shot and killed an armed robber who had turned his gun toward a customer. Tyrone Ingram, 32, walked into the Cidras Super Market, pointed a gun at a female cashier and announced a stickup. Nieves handed over the cash drawer and some cigarettes, police said. Ingram then allegedly hit Nieves over the head, knocking him to the floor. When a female customer entered the store, Ingram, who had a criminal record for armed robbery, allegedly pointed his gun at the woman. Nieves responded by grabbing his shotgun and firing at the robber killing him instantly, said Police News Affairs Officer Edward Alonzo. No charges will be filed against Nieves, who had narrowly escaped death a year earlier when a robber held a gun to his head and fired just as Nieves moved nicking his ear.
The Daily Advertiser, Lafayette, LA, 12/25/00; State: LA; American Rifleman Issue:
A New Orleans couple was awakened by the sounds of a man breaking into their second-story French Quarter apartment early one morning and soon found themselves in a fight for their lives. The intruder, apparently intent on harming the female resident, had placed his hand over the screaming woman's mouth in an attempt to silence her and then began punching her. When the ruckus brought the woman's husband to her rescue with his revolver, the scenario spelled doom for the home invader. The resident's several shots proved fatal to the brazen criminal.
Montgomery Advertiser, Montgomery, AL, 9/30/00; State: AL; American Rifleman Issue:
Kathy Hughes and Ellen Nix froze in their tracks after coming face-to-face with a 350-lb. male African lion that escaped from their neighbor's wild animal business in Hope Hull, Ala. The women's terror quickly turned to rage, however, when they noticed that the animal was chewing to death their favorite miniature horse. After yelling at the lion, Nix approached it and fired twice from her .32-cal. revolver. The beast dropped the then lifeless horse, but refused to yield. That's when the unusual incident turned bizarre. The women proceeded to chase the lion first on foot and then aboard a tractor until they pinned it and fired more than a dozen additional rounds to finally dispatch the big cat. Reports later indicated that the lion had escaped with a female and had mauled other horses. The animals' keepers whose business is called 'Crazy Critters' later destroyed the female.
Chasing a loin on foot – crazy.
The State, Columbia, SC, 3/11/01; State: SC; American Rifleman Issue:
Little did a Newberry, S.C., convenience store manager know when he escorted a female clerk to her car for her protection that his own safety was in jeopardy. Outside the store, two men hiding in the bushes accosted the manager. One reportedly attacked him with a broken shovel handle about the face, head and neck. When the victim broke free, he sought refuge in the store but was followed by the thugs. In desperation, the severely injured manager pulled his .40-cal. handgun and fired. One attacker died, and one escaped but was soon apprehended by police and charged with armed robbery.
The News-Review, Roseburg, Ore., 6/2/00; State: OR; American Rifleman Issue:
A wheelchair-bound Vietnam War veteran was in his apartment early one morning when another man apparently drunk and jealous about a mutual female friend charged toward the apartment screaming obscenities and ultimately forcing his way inside. Meanwhile, the resident armed himself with a 9 mm handgun. He was forced to use it only seconds later to defend his life as the home invader advanced toward him. The homeowner mortally wounded his attacker. A neighbor who witnessed the incident said of the invader, "This isn't the first time he's kicked the door in. I think he intended to really hurt [the resident] this time."
Star Tribune, Minneapolis, Minn., 12/9/99; State: MN; American Rifleman Issue:
In a near-deadly encounter that police concluded may have been a case of mistaken identity, two men with guns knocked on the door of a Minneapolis, Minn., house shortly before midnight and pushed aside the female resident who answered. Commanding her to "stay away," the men made their way inside, but not before the woman shouted a warning to her male companion. He grabbed a rifle and fired on the pair, striking one man in the leg. Both men fled, but were later arrested by police.
Rutland Herald, Rutland, Vt., 5/18/00; State: VT; American Rifleman Issue:
Edward Tuliper didn't typically receive visitors least of all wild animals in the wee hours of the night, but that's exactly what happened to the Florence, Vt., resident one Sunday." I thought, "Oh, jeez, the dog's getting into a porcupine,"" said Tuliper of the commotion that erupted shortly after 3 a.m. in his front yard. It turned out that the family pet had cornered a rabid, 40-lb. female bobcat by an entranceway. When Tuliper's wife, Linda, opened a door to check on the family pet, named Max, she was nearly overrun by the crazed cat. Both she and the couple's 13-year-old daughter fought the animal for control of the door. Meanwhile, Edward Tuliper attempted to dispatch the big cat with a machete. Finally, with help from his daughter, Tuliper latched onto a pistol and fired several shots killing the cat. Authorities later determined the animal was rabid. Fortunately, no member of the family including Max the dog was badly hurt.
The Arizona Republic, Phoenix, Ariz., 12/24/99; State: AZ; American Rifleman Issue:
Reynaldo Batista had just given a man and his female companion a ride in Phoenix, Ariz., when the man pulled a gun while the woman relieved Batista of his wallet, watch and car keys, according to police. As Batista and the man became engaged in a struggle, Batista pulled his Glock handgun and fired twice. The would-be robber who had a lengthy criminal record including several outstanding felony warrants died from his wounds.
Sharon Herald, Sharon, Pa., 10/5/99; State: PA; American Rifleman Issue:
A female Sharon, Pa., resident became frightened when a man repeatedly knocked on her door before going to her garage and picking up a chain saw. According to police, the woman grabbed a .22-cal. handgun and went outside to confront the man. When she pointed the gun at the man's head and ordered him to drop the saw, he realized he had been trumped and repeatedly apologized before fleeing the property.
I don’t think she should have gone out side and confronted the man. If some jurisdictions, had she ended up shooting, even if attacked, she may not have gotten off with lawful use of deadly force since she could have retreated.
The Arizona Republic, Phoenix, AZ, 2/5/99; State: AZ; American Rifleman Issue:
Donald Mays, 35, finally met his doom late one Tuesday evening after jumping out of a neighbor's closet and scuffling with the homeowner. The behavior apparently was not out of character for Mays. In previous years, he had broken into several apartments, tying up and robbing residents, and even raping, choking and threatening to kill a female victim. In his final outburst, Mays, who had been released from prison in another state and had moved to Arizona to live with his brother, may have entered the wrong house in a drunken stupor. This time, however, circumstances were not kind to the long-time ne'er-do-well. The episode ended when Mays was fatally shot by the terrified homeowner.
Pensacola News Journal, Pensacola, FL, 1/9/99; State: FL; American Rifleman Issue:
When 62-year-old Perry Johns of Pensacola, Florida, answered a knock at his front door one morning, he found a female acquaintance asking to use his telephone. Once inside, the woman asked Johns for money, a request she reinforced by pulling a gun. The scene sent a friend of Johns, who had been visiting, running from the house to summon police. After briefly chasing him, the woman went back inside and ordered Johns to drive her and a companion to a bank money machine to make a with- drawal. But as they stepped outside, Johns grabbed a gun from behind the door and fired several shots, wounding and sending the woman to the ground. Like her companion, she escaped, but was captured shortly thereafter to face charges of home-invasion robbery, aggravated assault with a firearm and kidnapping.
Burnsville/Lakeville Sun-Current, Bloomington, MN, 12/9/98; State: MN; American Rifleman Issue:
Residents of a Burnsville, Minnesota, house were rocked awake shortly after 1 a.m. by a man who repeatedly rang the front door bell and then kicked in the door and came inside. After a male resident armed himself and closed the bedroom door, the man pushed it open and punched the resident in the nose. As the two wrestled, the intruder proclaimed, "I don't care if I die." Soon he was going after the female resident of the house. The attacker began choking her and then pushed her head through a closed window, breaking out the glass. When her tormentor came at the woman again, the male resident fired a shot, hitting the intruder in the leg. The wounded home-invader left to seek help at a hospital where he was arrested and charged with first-degree burglary.
Chicago Tribune, Chicago, IL, 12/9/98; State: IL; American Rifleman Issue:
As Bruno Kosinski, 81, of Chicago's Ukranian Village was getting into his car before dawn one morning, two teenagers attacked him with pepper spray, knocked him down, stole his wallet and threatened to kill him, according to police. That's when the 5-foot, 5-inch Kosinski fought back, rising to his feet and firing once with a handgun he carries in his pants for protection. The shot struck a male attacker in the neck and sent a female accomplice fleeing. Though he did not have a carry permit, Kosinski was not charged with any crime. "He had a registered weapon and used it to defend himself against these gangbangers," said a police spokesman.
The Charlotte Observer, Charlotte, NC, 11/18/98; State: NC; American Rifleman Issue:
A number of unsolved burglaries and a subsequent string of sexual assaults near the University of North Carolina's Charlotte campus had female residents there fearing for their safety. It was that heightened sense of awareness, and an armed citizen, that helped prevent yet another attack. Twenty-six-year-old Adrian Rodricka Cathey entered a woman's apartment early one morning and assaulted her with a knife. This time, however, the intended victim fought back, retrieving a firearm and shooting her assailant. Cathey, who had a record of arrests on charges of rape and attempted murder, was later found dead in a parking lot.
The New York Times, New York, NY, 5/19/98; State: NY; American Rifleman Issue:
Manhattan jewelry store owner Gary Austen, 43, was bound with a necktie during a morning heist in which armed bandits menaced a customer and emptied the safe. Once free, Austen ran out of the store shouting "Call the cops!" Then, chasing one suspect, he came face to face with the man at a blocked subway entrance. Austen drew his licensed .25-cal. handgun and fired twice. The bleeding man fled and was later caught hiding in the basement of a pharmacy. He was hospitalized in serious condition and charged with first-degree robbery and weapons possession. A female accomplice escaped. Austen was not charged in the incident.
The Journal, Albuquerque, NM, 5/22/97; State: NM; American Rifleman Issue:
A late-night commotion in an Albuquerque, New Mexico, doughnut shop caused an employee to investigate with his pistol at the ready. He found a female clerk being held on the counter by a man who had a knife pressed to her neck. The male employee, a cook, ordered the man to drop the knife, and when the attacker failed to comply, the cook fired his pistol. The robber ran, but was found near the scene, dead of a gunshot wound.
The News-Post, Frederick, MD, 3/11/97; State: MD; American Rifleman Issue:
A bandit claiming to be armed strolled into a Frederick, Maryland, liquor store and attempted to rob a lone female cashier. Undaunted, the clerk reached for her own gun and pointed it at the suspect. No shots were required to send the man dashing from the store. Witnesses called police, who apprehended the criminal within blocks of the crime scene.
The Daily, Decatur, AL, 4/21/97; State: AL; American Rifleman Issue:
Three masked men entered a Moulton, Alabama, home in an attempt to rob the family living there. After one of the intruders placed a pistol to the head of a man in the house, a female resident said she needed to go into a back room to get her baby. Instead, she returned with a pistol and began firing at the intruders. Two of the men fled, while the third was held for police. One suspect turned himself in. The third was still at large, but police knew his identity and an arrest was expected. All of the bandits had criminal histories, including one who was awaiting trial for rape at the time of the home invasion.
Although she came back and did not hide when she said she was going to get her baby, I think this is proper use of a firearm. Her choice to come back was justified, I think, by protecting those in her immediate care. Had she not come back, however, I don’t think she would be charged with failure to render aid.
The Sun, Jackson, TN, 1/19/96; State: TN; American Rifleman Issue:
A female bandit used an all-too-real-looking BB pistol to get the drop on a Jackson, Tennessee, hotel night clerk. While the robber's attention was on the cash register, the clerk locked himself in the office, where he watched the woman on a closed circuit television and armed himself with a .38. Unable to leave through the lobby's locked door, the robber began pounding on the office door. The clerk opened fire through the door, killing her.
The Record, Stockton, CA, 2/18/95; State: CA; American Rifleman Issue:
A Stockton, California, real estate agent put an end to an attempted rape, after a man posing as a potential home buyer attacked her in a model home. Crumpling to the floor, the realtor drew a .380 from her purse, forcing the man to flee. Pursuing him outside, the woman fired several shots at the man, missing him as he jumped in his car. She halted his escape by shooting out one of his tires and with the help of some nearby construction workers, held the thug for police. The would-be rapist is being investigated in connection with a similar 1993 attack on a female real estate agent.
Pursuing him outside and firing shots while the attacker, make that now former attacker, was fleeing was, to me, not a very good decision. Also bad is the fact that three shots went somewhere not reported. I would presume that had anyone been hurt by any of those “missed” shots, this summer would not have been reported in the American Rifleman.
02-24-2002, 07:16 PM
The following is my favorite. Wonder why it didn't make it into the American Rifleman?Argument ends in homicide case
Victim, suspect had known each other for 50 years
LIONA TANNESEN, THE OLYMPIAN
SHELTON -- Prosecutors expect to file a murder charge within a few days against a Shelton man accused of shooting in the forehead a man he had known for 50 years.
Patrick L. Sergeant, 51, died of his wounds early Saturday. He had been shot shortly before midnight Thursday after an argument that started as a discussion about the Vietnam War.
Gerald VanCleave, 58, remains in Mason County Jail.
"I'm certain some level of murder charge will be filed against him," Prosecutor Gary Burleson said. "I'm just not certain which until I get the rest of the investigation."
Mason County Superior Court Judge James Sawyer found probable cause to hold VanCleave for investigation of homicide Monday.
Defense attorney Jim Dixon of Olympia declined to comment because he had not received the police report.
The Prosecutor's Office has 72 hours from the Monday court hearing to file charges, unless VanCleave waives speedy filing.
Sergeant was visiting VanCleave and VanCleave's girlfriend, Jane Cuzick, at their home in the 500 block of West Highland Road in the Dayton area.
The three drank a large amount of alcohol before an argument erupted, according to the Mason County Sheriff's Office.
VanCleave -- who had avoided the draft -- and Sergeant -- who fought in Vietnam -- began arguing about the war, VanCleave and Cuzick told investigators.
Cuzick gave the following statement:
Sergeant and Cuzick were sitting on the couch, and VanCleave was in a recliner while the three were drinking.
VanCleave and Sergeant grew angry during the argument about Vietnam.
Sergeant told VanCleave he could have Cuzick anytime he wanted.
VanCleave grabbed a .22-caliber revolver from a bookshelf and started firing, according to reports. One round struck the television, one round grazed Cuzick's neck, and one round hit Sergeant, Cuzick told police.
Cuzick didn't realize she had been shot until an officer interviewing her asked what the blood on her neck was from, Undersheriff Gary Crane said. Cuzick was treated at Mason General Hospital and released.
Medics found Sergeant, still breathing, with the hole in his forehead and a beer in his hand, according to the arresting agency's affidavit. Just beautiful, no? Isn't it just wonderful that this man was able to protect himself and his girlfriend? And what bravery under fire, to continue to hold his beer afer having his head ventilated!
02-25-2002, 07:58 AM
Mmmmm ... beer.
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