If America turns into Israel, would you stay?

[Anonymous]

I have to be honest. There's no way I would stay. I'd move to Europe, preferrably France or maybe Ireland. What would you do? (for the sake of discussion, please be honest)

[The Mister]

<font size=2>Well, if I'm going to be serious and honest, I'd have to know what you mean by "turning into" Israel. Otherwise, I have a non-serious answer:

Could 300 million Americans sustain themselves in a country consisting of about 8000 square miles of desert?

[Anonymous]

You know what I mean. Imagine your life is like that of the average Israeli.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-10-16 12:05 ]</font>

[Oak Glaister]

Please describe the life of the average Israeli.

[Anonymous]

I could describe it, but you'd be better off researching it on your own. Once your done, maybe you can describe it for others?

[The Mister]

<font size=2>Well, OK then. I'm Jewish (on my mom's side, which is the one that counts), so I'd probably be OK. I'd probably want to stay away from that shifty-eyed Canadian (or Mexican, take your pick) with something suspicious strapped under his shirt, though.

[Double High C]

VOR,

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever spoken to an Israeli?

Also, where would you go?

[Double High C]

On 2001-10-16 12:11, Voice of Reason wrote:
I could describe it, but you'd be better off researching it on your own. Once your done, maybe you can describe it for others?


It would be far more useful if you shared your insightful perspective, so that we would be answering the same, well thought-out question.

[Anonymous]

It might lead the audience. If you want to participate, research the issue on your own and honestly answer the question.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-10-16 12:29 ]</font>

[Guerilla poster]

If you have jewish father and a non-Jewish mother, you are not considered Jewish. hmm

Isn't religion based on what you believe not who your mother is?

Religious laws I will never understand.

Difficult choice - can I become Muslim or does mother have to be Muslim as well.

[Damn, Dirty Ape]

I don't understand the question. I also need more information on "Turns into Israel".

"Voice of Reason" (if that isn't the biggest misnomer since "Pussy Galore"!), your "average Israeli" statement doesn't help. Do I need to be as commited to my religion as the average Israeli is to know what I would do if I were Israeli?

Your question has to many variables. Please choose one or two aspects of "turning into Israel", and I will do my best to answer honestly.

[Anonymous]

I thought "turns into Israel" was a pretty easy concept to understand. Guess not. I apologize.

More clues: Personal security. Psychological stress. Personal freedom. Racism embedded in the law. Apartheid.

I ask because lately all I hear is how great Israel is at dealing with things. How great their society is in the way they deal with terrorism and how we should emulate them. I just want to say to those who champion Israeli society, your society sucks. It's a miserable, paranoid, genocidally racist society in a perpetual state of war. If the United States turned into Israel I would move to another part of the world, where I could live at peace.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-10-16 13:22 ]</font>

[Dr T Non-Fan]

"Answer statement X."
"What does X mean?"
"Figure it out for yourself, then answer it."

I wish I were the voice of reason. Then I wouldn't ask questions like this.

[Oak Glaister]

On 2001-10-16 12:11, Voice of Reason wrote:
I could describe it, but you'd be better off researching it on your own. Once your done, maybe you can describe it for others?


If you don't want people to answer your questions, then don't ask them. It is clear that you have something in mind when you say "turns into Israel". Either define your terms, or drop the whole thing.

[Voice of Ranting]

More clues: Personal security. Psychological stress. Personal freedom. Racism embedded in the law. Apartheid.

Sounds like the U.S. has "turned into Israel", based on those criteria. Best head for Europe, mr. reason!

[Don Quijote]

If the United States turned into a miserable, paranoid, genocidally racist society in a perpetual state of war then I think a lot of people would want to leave. I also think they would have very few options in a world in which the US was like you describe.

I also think that Israel is a much more favorable society than you describe, but neither is it a wealthy, tolerant, open, sharing, complete freedom to do anything with no bad consequences for anybody, disease free, lion laying down with the lamb utopia.

[Double High C]

Did either of you VOR's know that Arabs have full voting rights, and that there are Arabs in the Knesset?

While their system is not perfect, I hardly think that Apartheid is an appropriate term.

[Double High C]

On 2001-10-16 14:45, Don Quijote wrote:
If the United States turned into a miserable, paranoid, genocidally racist society in a perpetual state of war then I think a lot of people would want to leave. I also think they would have very few options in a world in which the US was like you describe.

I also think that Israel is a much more favorable society than you describe, but neither is it a wealthy, tolerant, open, sharing, complete freedom to do anything with no bad consequences for anybody, disease free, lion laying down with the lamb utopia.


While I might not agree entirely with your assessment (e.g. in degree, perhaps), you have turned this thread from unfocused rantings (with arguably antisemitic undertones) into a more intelligent discussion. Well said. Thanks.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Battery Park City on 2001-10-16 14:49 ]</font>

[Voice of Ranting]

p.s. to GP -- judaism is tribal first, religious second. it happens to be a matrilinear tribe, somewhere in pre-historical times. now in historical times it has a massive patriarchal overlay, but the tribal identity still comes from the mother's side.

israel as political state, cultural identity, religious affiliation, and tribal heritage are four different concepts.

U.S. out of South Dakota!

[Aaron Brachowitz]

On 2001-10-16 14:46, Battery Park City wrote:
Did either of you VOR's know that Arabs have full voting rights, and that there are Arabs in the Knesset?

While their system is not perfect, I hardly think that Apartheid is an appropriate term.

As pointed out in the recent Newsweek cover story, Arabs living in Israel have more rights guaranteed under the law than do Arabs living in Arab countries. Apparently voting is one of them.

[Voice of Ranting]

to BPC: yeah, i knew that.

[Anonymous]

On 2001-10-16 14:46, Battery Park City wrote:
Did either of you VOR's know that Arabs have full voting rights, and that there are Arabs in the Knesset?

While their system is not perfect, I hardly think that Apartheid is an appropriate term.


Pure lie. The Palestinians DO NOT have the right to vote for their leader. They are in apartheid camps.

[ACCtuary]

The Palestinians living in territories occupied since the 1967 war of agression against Israel are not Israeli citizens, AFAIK. Arabs living in Israel have full rights.

[Anonymous]

Aren't they under Israeli control? Israel sees fit to control them, but does not think it's a good idea to give them citizenship and rights.

That's called an apartheid state.

Besides, this wasn't the discussion. The question was if the US turns into the paranoid, unsecure, racist state Israel is, would you leave for a better society in a European country?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-10-16 15:30 ]</font>

[Hierophant]

My first thought was: If I see an unattended package in a public place, will everyone in the joint head for cover for the very real fear that it is a bomb?

OK, boys and girls, let's go with another scenario, since the topic seems so ill-defined. Suppose the blacks (or is it African-Americans?) become militant separatists and engage in a civil war of terrorism against the whites (or is it European-Americans?) Never mind what they want, because they aren't going to give it to them. Terrorism, profiling, division, etc., etc.

BTW, everybody is a citizen here, so deportation is not an option. Also, an "exodus" is not an option, because the African countries don't want to take anybody, and nobody wants to go there anyway.

Never mind the innocent bystanders, i.e. Asians, Mexicans, recent European immigrants.

One very key point to the current events is the question of whether the terrorists will prove successful in their attempts to divide - thus, the calls for jihad and of all Islam against the U.S., vs. our claim that this is a war on terrorism not a war on Islam.

Is the power to divide greater than the power to unite, or the other way around (as in the current TV ad for gosh knows what)??

[42]

On 2001-10-16 12:35, Voice of Reason wrote:If the United States turned into Israel I would move to another part of the world, where I could live at peace. Maybe it already has. Would you like an aisle or window seat?? :grin:

[ACCtuary]

We are still on topic becaues we are questioning your contention "Israel is an Apartheid, racist society"

However, if you really wanted to ask "If the United States put into effect many security measures common in Israel, would you stay"

If you had put the question that way, it would be an interesting debate without the anti-semitic overtones.

If you phrase your questions provocatively you will get angry, ill-reasoned replies.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AntiEverything on 2001-10-16 17:53 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AntiEverything on 2001-10-16 17:54 ]</font>

[Joined10MinBefore911Hit]

I wouldn't have to beg to get the day off for Rosh HaShanah or hope that Jewish holidays don't "conflict with my [now former] employer's Business Needs"

Meanwhile Christians would have to juggle their calendars and schedule their day off for Christmas with a manager.

But I digress :smile:

You might ask why I don't live in Israel now.

Mostly for reasons of competitiveness, not desiring to adjust to a new country at a late stage in life, and most importantly, that I am proud to be an American.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AcademicRefugee on 2001-10-16 17:59 ]</font>

[Anonymous]

On 2001-10-16 17:49, AntiEverything wrote:

However, if you really wanted to ask "If the United States put into effect many security measures common in Israel, would you stay"

If you had put the question that way, it would be an interesting debate without the anti-semitic overtones.


No, it's more than the security measures they've put into place. It's their racist, paranoic, violent, militaristic apartheid culture. It's not the laws, it's the attitude of the citizens.

Regarding your second comment. The most racist group on the planet today are Zionists (like you?) It shows just how low you are that on the one hand you advocate mass eviction and genocide of Arabs, while on the other hand you call others racist. This is the first time in history a racist group has been so low and valueless as to call others racist! How dare you?

Your abuse of the concept of racism is another example of your culture's lack of values. Racism means something. There's something horribly psychotic about your culture if it can on the one hand be racist, while on the other hand accuse others of racism. A new low.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-10-16 18:26 ]</font>

[Double High C]

On 2001-10-16 18:23, Voice of Reason wrote:
It's not the laws, it's the attitude of the citizens.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-10-16 18:26 ]</font>


To which Israeli citizens do you refer? How many have you met? Assuming the answer is above zero, are they all people who left Israel, and hence, not a representative sample, for several reasons?

Or perhaps it is you who are, shall we say, ... Ray Cyst?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Battery Park City on 2001-10-16 21:52 ]</font>

[Anonymous]

I don't care enough to have a 30+ post debate. You win.

[Double High C]

http://www.soreloserman.com ???

[The Mister]

On 2001-10-16 18:23, Voice of Reason wrote:
The most racist group on the planet today are Zionists.Bwahahahaha!!!
<font size=2>That's really funny.
Most of us here can think of plenty of groups who are much more blatantly racist than Zionists....on the one hand you advocate mass eviction and genocide of Arabs...I don't recall anyone here advocating the destruction of all Arabs/Muslims. What the hell are you talking about?

[Double High C]

On 2001-10-17 08:40, The Mister wrote:
On 2001-10-16 18:23, Voice of Reason wrote:
...

What the hell are you talking about?


<font size=-1>
That could be a response to just about everything VOR says!

[ This Message was edited by: Battery Park City on 2001-10-17 11:01 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Battery Park City on 2001-10-17 11:02 ]</font>

[Voice of Ranting]

Sheesh -- gotta learn how to quote properly. Mr. Reason said (of Israel):

"No, it's more than the security measures they've put into place. It's their racist, paranoic, violent, militaristic apartheid culture. It's not the laws, it's the attitude of the citizens."

I ask: are you <bold>sure</bold> you're not talking about the U.S.A.? Racist: well, the examples are too numerous to list. Paranoid: witness the current risk to out civil liberties. Violent: again, too numerous to list. We riot over basketball games, for goodness sake. Okay, we're not currently targetting enemies of the state for assasination as far as I know. But look at how badly we handle the death penalty! Militaristic: duh. Apartheid: U.S. out of South Dakota!

Book your flight to Europe, mr. reason. Don't expect me to miss you, though.

[Double High C]

On 2001-10-17 13:56, Voice of Ranting wrote:
Sheesh -- gotta learn how to quote properly. Mr. Reason said (of Israel):

"No, it's more than the security measures they've put into place. It's their racist, paranoic, violent, militaristic apartheid culture. It's not the laws, it's the attitude of the citizens."

I ask: are you sure you're not talking about the U.S.A.? Racist: well, the examples are too numerous to list. Paranoid: witness the current risk to out civil liberties. Violent: again, too numerous to list. We riot over basketball games, for goodness sake. Okay, we're not currently targetting enemies of the state for assasination as far as I know. But look at how badly we handle the death penalty! Militaristic: duh. Apartheid: U.S. out of South Dakota!

Book your flight to Europe, mr. reason. Don't expect me to miss you, though.



I thought he was going to the Democratic (nonracist) Republic of Syria!

PS Instead of "bold", just type the "b" in the chevrons.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Battery Park City on 2001-10-17 14:12 ]</font>

[Hierophant]

"We riot over basketball games, for goodness sake." ????

This is a criticism of the U.S.???????

Compare the soccer riots anywhere else in the world. Notably, the soccer thugs in the more refined and cultured states of Britain and Germany. Of course, the soccer thugs, just like the basketball rioters, are characteristic of the nation as a whole - a completely valid extrapolation.

I may be missing someone's inflection, but if we handle the death penalty "poorly" it is because it takes some 10 years to execute some evil murderer who, for example, violently kills several people in the most hideous fashion for the most gratuitous reasons, if any. (How about the guy who killed the kid at the fast food drive through, and then ate his burger?)

[Voice of Ranting]

to heirophant:

hey, riot over any sporting event you want. when talking about violence in a society, i personally have a hard time deciding what that means. most violent acts, like most kind acts, are committed by individuals, not societies. so i picked sports riots as an easy example of rationally unjustifiable mob violence.

also, i wasn't aware that germany and britian were more "cultured" than the U.S.

p.s. my problems with the death penalty would require a whole other topic; but no -- it's not with how long it takes to get around to doing it.

[alex]

People talk about israel being so democratic. Then, why are the israelis so intent on keeping the arab population in jerusalem below 30%. Regarding the arab right to vote, if you have a right to vote, but will never have more than a sliver of the electorate, I say you have limited participation in the political process, and the majority can and just might stomp all over you. And why, oh why, can a settler living in gaza vote, but a refugee can't. What, pray tell is so bad about arabs that you can use them as workers, occupy their territory, attack them with your army, but not allow them to vote. And why should a colony be justified just because it brings what it calls "democracy" to an area, even if that "democracy" is designed to serve the colonists, but not the natives.

[E. Blackadder]

The problem with using Palestinians as workers is that no matter what you ask them to do, they wind up making a bomb.

Why, I ask, do the Palestinians not do something... anything... constructive while they brood. Maybe build a factory, or develop commerce? They've had what... 53 years? To be sure, it's not totally their fault. After all, they live in a kleptocracy, run by murderous madmen. But at least they can blame someone else for their woes.

[Laocoön]

On 2001-10-17 22:58, E. Blackadder wrote:

Why, I ask, do the Palestinians not do something... anything... constructive while they brood. Maybe build a factory, or develop commerce? They've had what... 53 years? To be sure, it's not totally their fault. After all, they live in a kleptocracy, run by murderous madmen. But at least they can blame someone else for their woes.


Maybe the fairly total ban on capital investments from abroad that Israel has imposed on the Occupied Territories has something to do with it.

Aren't you supposed to be studying, EB?

[Mr. Grim]

To Voice of Ranting,

What is this U.S. out of South Dakota line? Am I missing something in the news?

[Anonymous]

On 2001-10-18 08:34, Laocoön wrote:

On 2001-10-17 22:58, E. Blackadder wrote:

Why, I ask, do the Palestinians not do something... anything... constructive while they brood. Maybe build a factory, or develop commerce? They've had what... 53 years? To be sure, it's not totally their fault. After all, they live in a kleptocracy, run by murderous madmen. But at least they can blame someone else for their woes.


Maybe the fairly total ban on capital investments from abroad that Israel has imposed on the Occupied Territories has something to do with it.

Aren't you supposed to be studying, EB?


EB's question is like asking why Jews didn't build anything in Germany between 39 and 45. Why do you think?

[Aaron Brachowitz]

On 2001-10-17 22:58, E. Blackadder wrote:
Why, I ask, do the Palestinians not do something... anything... constructive while they brood. Maybe build a factory, or develop commerce.

Might want to rethink this one. Do we really want a Palestinian military-industrial complex? I like the current arrangement where they have to steal the planes and explosives, rather than just manufacturing them.:lol:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aaron Brachowitz on 2001-10-18 13:08 ]</font>

[Anonymous]

At least AB's views are consistent and non-hypocritical.