Flag at Half Mast

[Polly Nomial]

Since when do we lower the flag to half mast for the death of a religious leader?

And since when do we lower the flag without an order from the president? (Though I'm sad to say that bush did indeed order it for the pope)

Would he do the same for the death of the Muslim leader?

Granted the pope is by far most influential religious leader in the world, (well the western portion, anways) but that doesn't change him from his non-secular role.

[Griffin 9]

Since when does it matter?

[lawfi5h]

Since when do we lower the flag to half mast for the death of a religious leader?

And since when do we lower the flag without an order from the president? (Though I'm sad to say that bush did indeed order it for the pope)

Would he do the same for the death of the Muslim leader?

Granted the pope is by far most influential religious leader in the world, (well the western portion, anways) but that doesn't change him from his non-secular role.
It's a show of respect. If I am not mistaken, flags were lowered for the Madrid bombings and for the tsunami.

[Salzmann]

There are mixed results here in the Midwest. My company's flags are not at half-mast and that's OK with me. I agree that the Pope was a major religious figure but he was definitely a religious figure. There is no reason for the head of state to order flags lowered to half-mast. If individual churches and other organizations want to, that's their prerogative.

[MountainHawk]

Since when do we lower the flag to half mast for the death of a religious leader?

And since when do we lower the flag without an order from the president? (Though I'm sad to say that bush did indeed order it for the pope)

Would he do the same for the death of the Muslim leader?

Granted the pope is by far most influential religious leader in the world, (well the western portion, anways) but that doesn't change him from his non-secular role.

He's also the head of state of one of the older nations of the world. I think we usually put the flag at half staff for the death of a current head of state of a nation we have diplomatic ties with.

[lawfi5h]

It's funny...I drive by a local high school and saw their flag at half mast...I said to myself "I can't wait to see the nuts that make a big deal about this".

[Jack]

What's the big deal? The President ordered flags at half staff and most people and companies complied. It's one of the perogatives of the President. Our company's flag is at half staff.

[Kaput Shakur]

The President can call for this if he wants. It's one of the perks of being Prez. Note that he has only called for it until Friday, when the funeral takes place. Normally, it would be for a 30-day period.

However, I don't think he'll call for it for Prince Rainier, so just saying that the Pope was a head of state isn't a complete explanation.

[Polly Nomial]

It's funny...I drive by a local high school and saw their flag at half mast...I said to myself "I can't wait to see the nuts that make a big deal about this".Thank you! :D

BTW, if i'm not mistaken, official flag etiquette requires a presidential order before the flag is lowered so it is not up to the individual.

And to whoever said "Who cares?" Yes, I don't really care. There are certainly more important issues than this, but I never though that was supposed to be a deterrent from discussing things here! :D

[llcooljabe]

It's a huge deal in France right now. Since the president there ordered it too. All the secularists are up in arms. (not sure if this already has its own thread?)

I would think that the pope is different because of the hundreds of millions of people he is leader to, and the political power of his position. Wouldn't this be appropriate enough to have such a decree from Washington.

As for muslim leader--is there an equivalent? Budhist (sp?) yes--the dalai lama. I would hope that Washington does the same.
I'm wondering if we'll have a fuss here in the US?

[Griffin 9]

Normally, it would be for a 30-day period.Only in certain (http://www.gettysburgflag.com/FlyFlagHalfMast.html) situations.

[Moe Szyslak]

He's also the head of state of one of the older nations of the world. I think we usually put the flag at half staff for the death of a current head of state of a nation we have diplomatic ties with.Good Point.™

[MountainHawk]

It's a huge deal in France right now. Since the president there ordered it too. All the secularists are up in arms. (not sure if this already has its own thread?)

I would think that the pope is different because of the hundreds of millions of people he is leader to, and the political power of his position. Wouldn't this be appropriate enough to have such a decree from Washington.

As for muslim leader--is there an equivalent? Budhist (sp?) yes--the dalai lama. I would hope that Washington does the same.
I'm wondering if we'll have a fuss here in the US?

Is the Dalai Lama a head of state? I would expect if the leader of Iran died while in office, and we weren't actively at war with them, we'd put the flags at half staff.

[lawfi5h]

Thank you! :D

BTW, if i'm not mistaken, official flag etiquette requires a presidential order before the flag is lowered so it is not up to the individual.

And to whoever said "Who cares?" Yes, I don't really care. There are certainly more important issues than this, but I never though that was supposed to be a deterrent from discussing things here! :D
exactly...and for the record, I am not calling you a nut.

BUT, so what? Who cares? Seperation of church and state was to protect us from our religous freedoms. Yes, one can argue the ten commandments in a courthouse vioaltes this. OK, I can see this argument. Fine. But since when did a flag only raised half way up a pole imply anything religious.

Are the atheists worried that they might take on religion now because of this????

[Griffin 9]

Was Bob Hope a Head of State?

[Griffin 9]

BTW, if i'm not mistaken, official flag etiquette requires a presidential order before the flag is lowered so it is not up to the individual.Quote = FALSE

[Bicycle Repair Man]

:sleep2:

[Griffin 9]

:sleep2:What? No post passively bashing religion by telling us you're not bashing religion this week?

[Polly Nomial]

exactly...and for the record, I am not calling you a nut.I knew that. The "thank you" was not meant to be sarcastic, but to be cute. ;)

[Bicycle Repair Man]

What? No post passively bashing religion by telling us you're not bashing religion this week?Don't tempt me. This week has been more challenging than I thought.

[Kaput Shakur]

Only in certain (http://www.gettysburgflag.com/FlyFlagHalfMast.html) situations.

Thanks for the link Griff!

[tangent] Both this link Griffin gave and this thread title use the term "half mast". Doesn't that specifically refer to flags on a ship? Isn't the general term "half staff"?

Then again, I've seen an awful lot of half-mast writing on the RF
[arctangent]

[Harry]

Who cares? I have no problem with this as a sign of respect for a leader of so many people. Inappropriately using that leaders words to further a political agenda is another story...

[Griffin 9]

Inappropriately using that leaders words to further a political agenda is another story...... i.e., using a quote to support something Harry disagrees with.

[Harry]

... i.e., using a quote to support something the original speaker disagrees with.
I fixed your quote.

[O. Hannah]

(Though I'm sad to say that bush did indeed order it for the pope)

Would he do the same for the death of the Muslim leader?

I think he will also do it when Billy Graham dies so prepare for another meltdown. (But probably more because he has been a US cultural icon as well as advisor to several presidents)

Also, I'm unaware that there is a "single Muslim leader" out there. I think that the Pope is the head of one of the largest single religious group in the world.

Lastly, when the head of the aboriginal Australians died a bit ago...was whomever the US president at the time a heartless racist for not lowering flags then? Come on, there must be at least several thousand people in the US with ties to that. I think that you must have a MAJOR connection to the American people to deserve such an honor.

[Griffin 9]

I fixed your quote.It was fine the way it was.

[Actuary321]

I'm not sure but I would think that the President and only ORDER the flag be lowered to half-staff at federal government buildings. Private and other governments can follow if they chose. I know there have been times here when a prominent former state leader (or leader of the predominant religion here) died that the governor ordered flags lowered.

And yes on land it is half-staff on ships it is half-mast (though it seems in modern usage most people don't know the difference). And the flag is not raised half way up, it is raised to the top and then lowered half way down.

[Prawnz Perdinand]

Is the Dalai Lama a head of state? I would expect if the leader of Iran died while in office, and we weren't actively at war with them, we'd put the flags at half staff.
Head of State? Is he elected democratically by the people of Vatican? I thought he was named by many old dudes with funny hats from various foreign countries. How about bringing freedom THERE? They deserve their purple thumb too.

[MountainHawk]

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vt.html

Population: 921 (July 2004 est.)

Executive branch:
chief of state: Pope JOHN PAUL II (since 16 October 1978)
head of government: Secretary of State Cardinal Angelo SODANO (since 1 December 1990)
cabinet: Pontifical Commission appointed by the pope
elections: pope elected for life by the College of Cardinals; election last held 16 October 1978 (next to be held after the death of the current pope); secretary of state appointed by the pope
election results: Karol WOJTYLA elected pope

Suffrage:
limited to cardinals less than 80 years old

[Prawnz Perdinand]

There's many people among the 921 who don't get a purple thumb. What are we waiting for? it's time for the full-tilt boogie. Pseud, bust a move!

[The Drunken Actuary]

Is the Dalai Lama a head of state? I would expect if the leader of Iran died while in office, and we weren't actively at war with them, we'd put the flags at half staff.
You would expect that? I wouldn't.

[Uncle Gary]

You would expect that? I wouldn't.Me neither, but I wouldn't be offended. Of course I wouldn't be offended if they flew them at half mast forever. Or if a dog peed on a political sign that had a flag on it.

:capn:

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Since when do we lower the flag to half mast for the death of a religious leader?

And since when do we lower the flag without an order from the president? (Though I'm sad to say that bush did indeed order it for the pope)

Would he do the same for the death of the Muslim leader?


If there were 70 million Muslims in the US, he probably would. And if the Muslims had one leader, which they don't.


The Queen of England is technically the head of the Church of England, and I guaran-damn-tee you we'd put the flags at half staff for her.

Polly is just bent about a sign of respect being paid to a religious leader she doesn't agree with. If you leave out your personal beliefs, you'll see nothing at all odd about lowering the flags for JPII.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

He's also the head of state of one of the older nations of the world. I think we usually put the flag at half staff for the death of a current head of state of a nation we have diplomatic ties with.

I think Polly is overreacting--surprise--but this statement by MountainHawk I don't think holds water. Lebanons head of state was just assassinated in office and we didn't lower the flags (at least here).

[2pac Shakur]

If there were 70 million Muslims in the US, he probably would. And if the Muslims had one leader, which they don't.


The Queen of England is technically the head of the Church of England, and I guaran-damn-tee you we'd put the flags at half staff for her.

Polly is just bent about a sign of respect being paid to a religious leader she doesn't agree with. If you leave out your personal beliefs, you'll see nothing at all odd about lowering the flags for JPII.

Bush should've lowered the flags for Arafat.
Didn't he give his grave the finger when he drove by it?

[Griffin 9]

Bush should've lowered the flags for Arafat.Why?

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Bush should've lowered the flags for Arafat.
Didn't he give his grave the finger when he drove by it?

Since he was the head of neither a state, nor a religion...and the Palestinian population of the US is negligible, I don't see why.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Head of State? Is he elected democratically by the people of Vatican? I thought he was named by many old dudes with funny hats from various foreign countries. How about bringing freedom THERE? They deserve their purple thumb too.

Head of State <> Democratically Elected Head of State

I don't remember anyone electing King Fahd or Fidel Castro, and they are still "Heads of State".

[2pac Shakur]

Head of State <> Democratically Elected Head of State

I don't remember anyone electing King Fahd or Fidel Castro, and they are still "Heads of State".

I don't remember anyone electing W.

[2pac Shakur]

Since he was the head of neither a state, nor a religion...and the Palestinian population of the US is negligible, I don't see why.

To celebrate the "culture of life".

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

I don't remember anyone electing W.

That's because you are a retard. Back to the point at hand...

[Westley]

Head of State <> Democratically Elected Head of State

I don't remember anyone electing King Fahd or Fidel Castro, and they are still "Heads of State".

Are you saying that if Fidel were to die we would lower our flags to half staff? Because, somehow, I doubt it.

[Griffin 9]

I don't remember anyone electing W.I voted for him 5 or 6 times in 2004.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

To celebrate the "culture of life".

If someone had a gun to your head demanding you post something relevant, do you suppose you could pull it off?

[Griffin 9]

Are you saying that if Fidel were to die we would lower our flags to half staff? Because, somehow, I doubt it.There was a statement about diplomatic ties in there earlier.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Are you saying that if Fidel were to die we would lower our flags to half staff? Because, somehow, I doubt it.

I think I covered this already...

Rhymes with "shmiplomatic elations"

[2pac Shakur]

If someone had a gun to your head demanding you post something relevant, do you suppose you could pull it off?


Sure.
I'd copy and paste all your brilliant stuff.

[2pac Shakur]

I think I covered this already...

Rhymes with "shmiplomatic elations"

The Pope was more anti-Iraq war than Chretien.
Why didn't we call him the head of the Freedom church?

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

The Pope was more anti-Iraq war than Chretien.
Why didn't we call him the head of the Freedom church?

Good question. :duh:

[Westley]

I think I covered this already...

Rhymes with "shmiplomatic elations"
Just messing with ya. Good to have you back.:bighug:

[Westley]

If someone had a gun to your head demanding you post something relevant, do you suppose you could pull it off?
This is why you came back, right? Because you missed 2Pac?

[2pac Shakur]

Good question. :duh:

Merci beaucoup, madame.

[Griffin 9]

Merci beaucoup, madame.Frog.

[Malik Shabazz]

This is why you came back, right? Because you missed 2Pac? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Malik Shabazz]

Flag at Half MastI think there's a little blue pill that would help your husband/boyfriend with that.

[Griffin 9]

Who's that dude, MS? Is it Abraham Lincoln again?

[Malik Shabazz]

Who's that dude, MS? Is it Abraham Lincoln again?1) Frederick Douglass

2) "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

[Griffin 9]

2) "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

For the Americans:
You mean that play where he got run over by a Ford outside the theater?

For the Canadians:
You mean that play where he got run over by a Ford ootside the theatre?

[The Drunken Actuary]

I thought this thread was going to be about Viagra.

[Malik Shabazz]

I thought this thread was going to be about Viagra.Ahem. Look at post #55.

PS - Nice to have you back, TDA. That SPAL character didn't quite seem right.

[fallout]

Ahem. Look at post #55.

PS - Nice to have you back, TDA. That SPAL character didn't quite seem right.


Perhaps he is both and uses two ids to keep it under 50,000?

[The Drunken Actuary]

Ahem. Look at post #55.

PS - Nice to have you back, TDA. That SPAL character didn't quite seem right.
Is Viagra blue?

[The Drunken Actuary]

PS - Thanks! SPAL just never felt right.

[2pac Shakur]

Is Viagra blue?

No, but I was in Vegas.

[The Drunken Actuary]

No, but I was in Vegas.
Why? Did you lose?

[Griffin 9]

PS - Thanks! SPAL just never felt right.I liked it better when you were Xin Xi.

[2pac Shakur]

Why? Did you lose?

No. Because I won.
Think of another spelling of blue.

[Griffin 9]

Think of another spelling of blue.Oh, you mean Moon and Blu Cheese, by Ellsworth Weaver?

[2pac Shakur]

Oh, you mean Moon and Blu Cheese, by Ellsworth Weaver?

Exactly.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Just messing with ya. Good to have you back.:bighug:

Ah--my "nuance meter" requires some adjusting.

[Lucy]

I can't remember seeing the flag at half mast (or half staff) for any non-American before. But maybe I just don't notice these things. I guess I'm with Uncle on this one.

[Westley]

Not sure whether it's ever been done before for a non-American, but I don't think that's the point. There's actually rules about such things, and I think it's important to respect those rules:

http://www.usflag.org/nffhalfstaff.html (http://www.usflag.org/nffhalfstaff.html)
FLYING THE FLAG AT HALF-STAFF: The pertinent section of the Flag Code says, "by order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possesion, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law.

In the event of the death a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that state, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff." The code also includes other related details including the specific length of time during which the flag should be displayed at half-staff, in the event of the death of a "principal figure"(e.g., 30 days for the death of a sitting or former President, 10 days for the death of a sitting Vice-President,etc.).

[Westley]

Interesting flag etiquette I saw on there - anybody know when it is appropriate to fly a flag higher than the US flag? ("Never" is NOT the correct answer).

[Griffin 9]

Interesting flag etiquette I saw on there - anybody know when it is appropriate to fly a flag higher than the US flag? ("Never" is NOT the correct answer).During the Olympics.

[Griffin 9]

I can't remember seeing the flag at half mast (or half staff) for any non-American before. But maybe I just don't notice these things. I guess I'm with Uncle on this one.Just the 100,000 or so tsunami victims.

[Griffin 9]

I can't remember seeing the flag at half mast (or half staff) for any non-American before. But maybe I just don't notice these things. I guess I'm with Uncle on this one.And the Space Shuttle Columbia astronauts, which included non-Americans.

[MountainHawk]

Interesting flag etiquette I saw on there - anybody know when it is appropriate to fly a flag higher than the US flag? ("Never" is NOT the correct answer).

Something about the Church flag during services at sea or something, isn't it? Been a while since I read the flag code.

[Westley]

Something about the Church flag during services at sea or something, isn't it? Been a while since I read the flag code.
Wow, I'm impressed. There may be others - I was told that the UN flag in NYC flies higher, maybe somebody from there can tell us - but the actual Flag Code has only that one provision.

During a church service conducted by a Navy Chaplain while at sea, the church pennant can fly above the US Flag. It's almost funny how specific it is.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Interesting flag etiquette I saw on there - anybody know when it is appropriate to fly a flag higher than the US flag? ("Never" is NOT the correct answer).

In Syria.

[Malik Shabazz]

I was told that the UN flag in NYC flies higher, maybe somebody from there can tell us - but the actual Flag Code has only that one provision.I used to live down the block from the UN and I don't remember. The UN flag has a place of prominence in front of all the national flags (which are arranged in alphabetical order -- I pity the guy who has to sort them :) ), but I don't remember whether the UN flag was higher than the others.

In any event, if the UN flag is higher than the national flags, it has nothing to do with the US Flag Code. The land on which the UN stands is international territory, owned by the United Nations, although it is situated in the United States. US law does not apply except with the consent of the Secretary-General.

http://www.un.org/geninfo/faq/factsheets/FS23.HTM

[Griffin 9]

US law does not apply except with the consent of the Secretary-General.Is the flag's position relative to other flags a law thing or a custom/code thing?

[Malik Shabazz]

Is the flag's position relative to other flags a law thing or a custom/code thing?Since people are referring to the Flag Code, I assumed that it is a law (like the United States Code, the compendium of federal laws).

[MountainHawk]

It is a law, though it is rarely enforced.

(If it was, all those cute little flag plates and napkins you buy at the store for Memorial Day and the Fourth of July would be illegal. ;) )

[MountainHawk]

I used to live down the block from the UN and I don't remember. The UN flag has a place of prominence in front of all the national flags (which are arranged in alphabetical order -- I pity the guy who has to sort them :) ), but I don't remember whether the UN flag was higher than the others.

In any event, if the UN flag is higher than the national flags, it has nothing to do with the US Flag Code. The land on which the UN stands is international territory, owned by the United Nations, although it is situated in the United States. US law does not apply except with the consent of the Secretary-General.

http://www.un.org/geninfo/faq/factsheets/FS23.HTM

I think it's time to invade the UN and get that land back. Let them take up a new residence, and spread the wealth. Jerusalem would be a new choice. ;)

[Griffin 9]

It is a law, though it is rarely enforced.

(If it was, all those cute little flag plates and napkins you buy at the store for Memorial Day and the Fourth of July would be illegal.)Wouldn't all of that fall under the SC flag burning decision in 1989?

[MountainHawk]

Wouldn't all of that fall under the SC flag burning decision in 1989?

The Flag Code may be unconstitutional, yes. I'm not positive the Court actually struck it down, but they probably would if it was being enforced.

[Actuary321]

I think Polly is overreacting--surprise--but this statement by MountainHawk I don't think holds water. Lebanons head of state was just assassinated in office and we didn't lower the flags (at least here).I am totally shocked that you got this wrong. It was Lebanon's former Prime Minister that was assasinated, not their current one.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/14/beirut.explosion/

[Kaput Shakur]

I am totally shocked that you got this wrong. It was Lebanon's former Prime Minister that was assasinated, not their current one.




Very few countries are run by dead men.

[Malik Shabazz]

Very few countries are run by dead men.Very few, yes, but they have been very big ones.

The US was run by a very dead Woodrow Wilson. The USSR has been run by a few dead Premiers. China has been run by a dead Premier or two.

[Actuary321]

Very few countries are run by dead men.But he was former at the time of his assasination.

I was shocked Markie missed that.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

But he was former at the time of his assasination.

I was shocked Markie missed that.

Me too. I'll have to check with my support staff. They fed me bogus data....

;)

[Levin]

If someone had a gun to your head demanding you post something relevant, do you suppose you could pull it off?Shekky, I never really knew you before your apparent hiatus, but I can see why people are glad you are back. Nothing against you, 2pac, but this was just really funny.

[Branwell]

Searching the web, I ran across the claim that the last foreign leader for whom we lowered the US flag to half staff was Winston Churchill, who died in 1965.

I can't swear that that's accurate.

[Griffin 9]

Searching the web, I ran across the claim that the last foreign leader for whom we lowered the US flag to half staff was Winston Churchill, who died in 1965.

I can't swear that that's accurate.That's only accurate if Yitzhak Rabin, King Hussein, and Anwar Sadat all died before 1965.

[Malik Shabazz]

That's only accurate if Yitzhak Rabin, King Hussein, and Anwar Sadat all died before 1965. :lolup:

:2pac:

[Branwell]

That's only accurate if Yitzhak Rabin, King Hussein, and Anwar Sadat all died before 1965.

More proof that I shouldn't believe everything I read.

Is there a listed posted somewhere of everyone who's gotten the half-staff treatment? That's what I was looking for when I ran across the bogus Churchill claim.

[Pseudolus]

Athiest groups once again succeed in preventing anyone from taking them seriously: Atheists Question Honor for Pope

Two atheist groups have found fault with the government's decision to lower the U.S. flag in honor of Pope John Paul II.

The president of American Atheists called on President Bush to rescind his order that flags at the White House and other public buildings be flown at half-staff. The request was not honored.

"It's inappropriate for the American flag to be lowered as a salute to a foreign religious leader," Ellen Johnson, head of the Parsippany, N.J.-based organization, said in a statement. "The flag should represent all Americans, and not all Americans believe that the pope deserves such a special, government-sponsored recognition."

The Freedom From Religion Foundation had a similar reaction to an executive order by Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle (D) that both the U.S. flag and the state flag be flown at half-staff at state buildings and military installations until sunset yesterday, the day of the pope's funeral.

"Let's reserve the honor of half-masts for true American heroes," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Madison, Wis.-based foundation, in a statement. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38739-2005Apr8.html

[E. Blackadder]

Is there a [list]
posted somewhere of everyone who's gotten the half-staff treatment?
I could answer but those silly mods might construe a TOS violation somehow.

[Griffin 9]

"The flag should represent all Americans, and not all Americans believe that the pope deserves such a special, government-sponsored recognition."In other words, the flag should never be flown at half staff.

[fallout]

In other words, the flag should never be flown at half staff.


Unless of course an atheist dies. Then seperation of church and state would kick in and force them to lower the flag.

[Actuary321]

I could answer but those silly mods might construe a TOS violation somehow.But posted one person per post, you could probably catch 2pac and TDA. Probably with only those people you personally know.:guitarwo: