Child's Play 2???

[Traci]

Here's the link:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/644683.asp

Here's the gist:

"The kids who attend parties at Connie Shoemaker’s house get something more than ice cream or cake. They get exposed to chickenpox. Shoemaker and other parents leery of the relatively new chickenpox vaccine are holding “chickenpox parties,” inviting healthy children to play with infected ones in hopes the youngsters will catch the disease and gain lifetime immunity."

Anyone else think this is absurd?

[Griffin 1]

On 2001-10-18 23:47, Traci - Admin wrote:
Anyone else think this is absurd?


Yes. I hope these people are keeping their children completely isolated during the time they could be contagous. And what are the odds of serious reaction to the vaccine vs. serious reaction to Chicken Pox?

[slam]

Absolutely absurd. It just shows what ignorance and fear lead to. NYC now requires chicken pox vaccinations in order to attend Kindergarten. We just had our 2-year-old vaccinated. No problem (other than the shot itself). We then had my 6-year-old, who was grandfathered, also vaccinated. Again, no problems. Remembering my own week with chicken pox as an 8-year-old, I have to believe that the vaccine is the way to go.

[Patience]

All my kids had chicken pox naturally, but I don't believe in the vaccine either.

From what I understand it is not for life. It has to be repeated and if as an adult you do not follow up it could be much worse if you catch it.

Mandatory vaccines are news to me, but maybe my kids are exempt. The pox party is still a ridiculous idea

[The Mister]

<font size=2>It's funny, but I don't remember much about having chicken pox. I do remember I was about 8 yrs old, and while I don't remember from whom I caught it, I do remember to whom I gave it. :smile:

At any rate, while what these parents are doing is ridiculous, I can kind of see their reasoning, since catching chicken pox at an early age is *relatively* harmless compared to getting it post-puberty. As a general rule, the older you are when you catch it, the more severe it tends to be.

Another bit of trivia: Chicken pox is actually a form of herpes. Once you have it, you can never be rid of it. While you may be immune to the virus in the sense that you no longer have to worry about getting *that* sick, at any point you could break out in "scales". Usually this occurs in older people.

I do have a question, though: Does the vaccine immunize against all effects of chicken pox, including scales, or - like most vaccines - does it simply give you a weak dose of the disease, thus exposing you to a potential outbreak of scales?

[Patience]

I read the article after posting and was shocked that the exposed a 10 month old as well.

[ne11er]

I don't have kids, but I just think that sounds stupid to try and catch chicken pox. While it may be nice to "get it over and done with as a youngster", it's really shouldn't be something you go out seeking for. Let nature take it's course. If there's a vaccine, there's probably a purpose for it so why not go ahead and get it? Anyhoo...those parents most be smoking crack or something.

[Huki]

On 2001-10-19 08:30, Patience wrote:
From what I understand it is not for life. It has to be repeated and if as an adult you do not follow up it could be much worse if you catch it.


There are not yet long-term studies in the US to demonstrate the vaccine is for life. As a result, doctors can not say that, without a doubt, a child will not need a booster when he or she becomes an adult.

[Oh Yeah]

It is also not true that once you have the disease you are then immune for life. It is possible for an adult who had chicken pox as a child to have it again as an adult.

[Traci]

Gee! The lengths I have to go to - to find a topic that most everyone agrees with me on! :smile:

(Schools around here are expected to make the vaccine mandatory. The article said that studies in Japan have shown the vaccine to be effective for 25 years minimum - I don't think their studies went beyond 25 years, so 26+ is still a ?

The 10-month old really ticked me off also! And the line about parents who want to treat chicken-pox when it's more *convenient* for *them*.

I think it borders on child-abuse to intentionally make a child sick like that. No - I'm not advocating new laws - just adding to the list of laws I'll make when I'm QoW. Hmmm .... what shall the penalty be? Expose the parents to a disease that makes them feel terrible for a week, makes them itch like crazy - but they can't scratch!

Which reminds me - smaller children with CP are more likely to scar because they can't keep from scratching.

Both my kids have been vaccinated.)

[Bonnie]

At the risk of seeming too callous, I want to logically defend exposing your children to chicken pox. As a mother of two, who have already gotten the chicken pox, let me explain.

My older son, age 3 1/2 at the time, came home with chicken pox from exposure at nursery school. My nanny had never had chicken pox, so she refused to come to work (she was already exposed, but that's another story). So, working mom had to stay home from work to tend to sick child. (I would do it anyway, don't yell at me!)

Exactly 2 weeks later, my younger son, only 8 months old at the time, came down with it too. So, nanny disappears again, but this time we are MOVING! Packing up the whole household which is one of life's biggest stresses, not having time to deal with a sick infant, and no nanny to take care of him. Thank goodness for my mother-in-law.

So, defense of exposing children. 1) Having them both have it at the SAME TIME, instead of two bouts, and two sets of missed work days. 2) Having it at a more "convenient" time. Definitely not while moving to a new house! 3) My pediatrician, (this is 4 years ago) also told us about the needing booster shots as adults and recommended not vaccinating the kids.

For me the issue is moot. We've all had it and all survived, and I'm glad we never have to go through that again. But, there is a hint of logic to the whole thing, maybe not compassion, but I can at least understand their reasoning.

[Griffin 1]

My pediatrician told us about the possibility of needing a booster, but she recomended the shot.

BTW, if you had vaccinated your kids in the first place, then you wouldn't have had any problems.

[Patience]

assuming there was a vacination when her kids got sick.

my fear is people will not know their vacination history or assume they had the disease.

As a child this disease is not a terrible tragedy. But I feel the possibility of passing it off until adulthood is a much worse tradeoff

[Traci]

I can understand Bonnie's reasoning. But I would not have supported her had she decided to expose her 8-month old intentionally to the disease when the older child had it, just to "get it over with".

And the vaccine IS fairly new - initally some peds were reluctant to use it - now almost all recommend it and many states are beginnning to require it for school.

I don't think remembering your history is that big of a deal. I will simply tell my kids as they head off to college - BTW, you never had CP and should probably have a booster (if one is still needed by then, research might show that it is not)

[Mardi]

the logic here (in the olden days when I was young) is to expose your kids when they are young and chickenpox is relatively mild. As you age the risk increases. Exposure during puberty can sterilize, etc.

[Patience]

most likely research will show that any one innoculated between xx/2000 and yy/2002 will need a booster 25 yrs later, unless you were on the west coast after zz/2001 where they used a different formula.

[Double High C]

On 2001-10-19 11:21, Mardi wrote:
the logic here (in the olden days when I was young) is to expose your kids when they are young and chickenpox is relatively mild. As you age the risk increases. Exposure during puberty can sterilize, etc.


I got it at age 30. (Maybe that is why I am crazy.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: battery park city on 2001-10-19 11:29 ]</font>

[Han Solo]

This is a "what we learned from TV".

They did this on an episode of South Park. Kenny got the chicken pox and the other kids moms sent their kids over to Kenny's to spend the night hoping they would get it as well. Of course, it backfired and one of the kids got really sick from it and ended up in the hospital. The kids got even by (I forget how) giving their parents herpes.

I never thought I'd see the day parents were getting child-rearing ideas from South Park.

[Traci]

So what would/should the legal implications be if a child intentionally exposed to CP became seriously ill or God Forbid, died?

Are the parents liable?

[Dr T Non-Fan]

SP producers more likely got it from stories they have heard. SP is more reaction-based than pro-active.

There have always been parents that have done this.

[Han Solo]

Not sure.

What are the legal implications if a child exposed normally get badly sick or dies? Like at school. Are the parents of the contagious child liable because they should have kept their kid at home?

[Enough Exams Already]

BIG difference, there, Han. If the parents exposed their child with the intent of having their child get sick, I would think that if the child died, the parents could be culpable. But there would be a question of who would have standing to sue--normally if a child dies, the parents are the ones who can sue, but you can't sue yourself.

[Han Solo]

I would think you also might have trouble proving intent.

[Enough Exams Already]

Trouble proving intent for the child to die? Or trouble proving the parents intended for the child to be exposed and contract chicken pox? I'm not clear on which one you mean.

Proving that the parents intended for the child to be exposed would be relatively easy, I would think, especially if the kid had been exposed at a "pox party" like Traci et al. described above. And all you'd need to show is that the parents intended the child to be exposed and contract chicken pox. After that, anything else that flowed from the exposure, however unfortunate, the parents would be culpable for.

[CDC]

http://www.chickenpoxinfo.com

[Double High C]

On 2001-10-19 12:06, Han Solo wrote:
This is a "what we learned from TV".

They did this on an episode of South Park. Kenny got the chicken pox and the other kids moms sent their kids over to Kenny's to spend the night hoping they would get it as well. Of course, it backfired and one of the kids got really sick from it and ended up in the hospital. The kids got even by (I forget how) giving their parents herpes.

I never thought I'd see the day parents were getting child-rearing ideas from South Park.


Is CP the thing that killed Kenny on that episode?

[JMO]

Thanks for starting this thread, Traci.

I recall going to Thanksgiving dinner at my grandparents' house. My dad was one of 8 children, so there were lots of cousins around. One of the girls had on a cute dress with long stockings. Only afterwards did we learn that the stockings helped hide her chicken pox. My brother and I both missed some school betweeen Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Were the girl's parents right to share their daughter's illness? There were no vaccines for chicken pox in those days.

JMO@home

[Traci]

""'Were the girl's parents right to share their daughter's illness? """

Without even telling the other parents????

That makes my blood boil just thinking about it!

If that were one of my siblings, they would have received a tongue-lashing they'ld NEVER forget! Even if my kids didn't get sick!

[Hierophant]

On 2001-10-19 09:45, Oh Yeah wrote:
It is also not true that once you have the disease you are then immune for life. It is possible for an adult who had chicken pox as a child to have it again as an adult.


I don't believe this is true. In the old days, virtually everyone had chicken pox while growing up; I never heard of adults catching it from their children when the children caught it. Keep in mind that, after catching chicken pox, the virus is never eliminated; rather, the immune system works to attack any virus loose in the body.

There is something that CAN happen to some people, specifically immuno-depressed" people. The immuno-depressed person is unable to maintain control over the virus, and the virus can re-establish itself.

The resulting viral infection is not called chicken-pox, but rather it is called "shingles." As a side note, the chicken pox virus is a form of herpes virus, similar to the Herpes simplex and Herpes zoster viruses of the sexually transmitted above and below the waist varieties.

Immuno-depressed people can be AIDS/HIV patients, people on chemo or radio therapy, or interferon, and possibly just older or sicker patients. (Some of these details may not be quite right, but those are the basics.)

Note the difference between the immunity from catching chicken pox and the immunity from the immunization. Having had chicken pox, the virus remains in the body, and presents a constant challenge to the immune system. In contrast, the immunization generally "introduces" the virus to the immune system, which "learns" how to react to the virus. Over time, it is possible for the immune system to "forget" how to respond.

(edit note: on further reading, I see that The Mister has already posted a lot of this info)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hierophant on 2001-10-22 09:18 ]</font>

[The Mister]

<font size=2>That's OK. You seem to have a better knowledge (or copy/pasting ability) than I do about this subject. And yes, it's "shingles", not "scales" as I originally had said. :wink:

[slam]

When I was in college, my girlfriend had an 11-old-brother who came down with chicken pox during our spring break. She had never had chicken pox before (but I had). She came down with it a week or so after returning to school. If I was ever going to catch chicken pox again, it would have been then.

[Actuary321]

On 2001-10-19 10:39, Bonnie wrote:

For me the issue is moot. We've all had it and all survived, and I'm glad we never have to go through that again. But, there is a hint of logic to the whole thing, maybe not compassion, but I can at least understand their reasoning.


Just to put this one handshake away, my cousins son (about 8 at the time) died of chickenpox. I know this is very rare but it does happen. I have not read about the vaccine (all my children got chickenpox when they were young, my daughter at age 5 or 6 while she had a broken arm), but would expect that there are risks with it as well. Death probably being a very rare one.

[Patience]

Whats causes a child to die from Chicken Pox? I always assumed there was usually a known underlying factor, as the child was already sickly or mal-nourished.

Do otherwise healthy children die from chicken pox. and if so could a vaccine be dangerous as well?

BTW, no matter how you feel about exposing you child on purpose, the mother who brought the child with chicken pox to the family gathering is SO wrong it is maddening. It is possible she thought they were dried up and no longer contagious. I can excuse ignorance, not studipity

[Traci]

" Whats causes a child to die from Chicken Pox? "

Well - I suppose it could vary.

Until recent years, parents gave aspirin to young children - now we know that can cause Reyes Syndrome which is rare but potentially fatal.

Although the virus itself *visibly* attacks the skin, it is attacking other organs as well. If the heart, lungs, kidneys etc. were already weak by some known or unknown source ... or even if they weren't already weak - but the child had a very severe case of the virus.

Also, in a severe case, a high fever can cause damage and even be potentially fatal.

If the disease were not recognized (some kids get only a few spots) and/or properly treated, the child could become overly-exhausted and/or dehydrated - which can happen quickly in small kids and is potentially fatal.

Just a few possibilities.

Death is rare, but it can happen. There are also possible side effects from the vaccine.

When my oldest was vaccinated, she was also allergic to eggs. I was concerned about an egg-based vaccine. My pediatrician double-checked to make sure it was okay for her. She had no reaction - but it can happen.

However, I think the risks from the vaccine pale when compared to the risks of having the disease.

I disagree with those parents who simply view it as a rite of passage. Why in the world would you WANT your child to be sick?

[Patience]

On 2001-10-22 14:20, Traci - Admin wrote:
I disagree with those parents who simply view it as a rite of passage. Why in the world would you WANT your child to be sick?


From my thought process, which preceeds the vacination.

A) Either your child will get it or won't. If they are going to get it better off early and when you feel you can take care of them better. Its going to happen, schedule it in a sense.

B) If they don't get it the risks as an adult are so much worse, I would them rather get it as a child, so back to point A.

I think you would be shocked how many people go into adulthood not knowing their health history. I do believe there is a genuine risk of adults catching Chicken Pox, unless the disease is totally wiped out.

As for death. Based on your reply it seems that if your child is normally healthy and you are aware they have been exposed. What is the risk of death, compared to a bad reaction from the shot.

[Traci]

"""What is the risk of death, compared to a bad reaction from the shot. """

I don't know exact stats on this - but I would bet that the risks of having the disease are still far greater than the risks of a reaction to the vaccine. Even in healthy kids.

And if the guilt factor counts for anything: If I vaccinated my kid and she had a bad reaction - I would not blame myself. But if I intentionally made her sick and she suffered a rare complication - I would never forgive myself. Just me.

[Patience]

It depends on mindset. If I see the disease as inevitable and my child had a bad reaction I would feel less guilt than if I introduced a man made agent into her.

[roz]

Try an adult perspective; a colleague at a previous firm caught chicken pox and insisted on working all the way through. He expected to be rewarded for his diligence. Two other colleagues caught chicken pox and one got shingles, all from this guy's `diligence'.
I am healthy and haven't had chickenpox or been vaccinated. Should I try to catch it now so that I don't suffer more if I get it at a frailer age? Like hell I should! And if I'm not prepared to go through that myself, how much less would I be prepared to put my kids through it. Stupid stupid idea.

[Patience]

It is a different disease for adults, with different results that are much more dangerous. The analogy doesn't work.

Plus, if you were exposed as a child, and so were your co-workers, there wouldn't be any concern now.

[Rockhound]

So, defense of exposing children. 1) Having them both have it at the SAME TIME, instead of two bouts, and two sets of missed work days.

If ever there was an argument for stay-at-home moms. "Lets make the kids sick, so I don't have to miss work."