Religion at work

[Westley]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=8&u=/latimests/20050515/ts_latimes/faithfularecarvingnicheintheworkplace

News article about a company-sponsored group, Christians@AOL. Interesting read.

My thoughts: I don't know if companies should be sponsoring and encouraging on-site support groups for gay employees, black employees, alcoholic employees, etc, but it seems unfair to offer those and then refuse to allow groups of Christians (or any other religion) to organize. I'm not even sure where you draw a line. What if people want to organize Satanists@AOL or pedophiles@AOL?

This comes with an additional risk, though: Whites are rarely asked by blacks to "become black, join my group", and if that happened, they wouldn't feel threatened or anything. With religion, some people are very uncomfortable being asked about their religious beliefs, and it could create conflict.

Additionally, some people are even put off by Bibles on peoples' desks, which seems to happen more and more these days. I'm not put off by a Bible, but I think I would be put off by a Talmud or Koran, so I wonder if some people are offended by the Bible - I sort of feel it's inappropriate to have your Bible out on your desk. That seems to me that it's really for show more than anything, and not in a good way. Contrast that with a guy I used to work with years ago, who would come in early, get his Bible out of his desk drawer and go to a corner of the cafeteria and pray. If you went over to say hi or asked what he was doing, he talked very clearly about it, but never really made a big deal about it - I thought he was very work-appropriate.

In general, I think this is a bad thing because it just creates more potential conflict opportunities. But then, my attitude has always been to go to the office, get my work done, talk to the people I need to talk to about it, and leave. I'm not one to have a lot of work friends. Worlds apart, not colliding.

Thoughts?

[Jack]

I generally agree with your last paragraph.

Most companies are in business to make money. Businesses (sp?), to the extent that these groups hinder that end, have a right to limit or outrigth not permit these clubs, groups from organizing during company time on company property.

If an employee wants to form a black group or some Protestant group fine, the company has a right to say do it on your own time on your own property.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Even as a Christian, I am put off by Bibles on people's desk. I would look at that no different than if someone brought a Gameboy to work.

You aren't here to play Gameboy or read the Bible. If you want to do those things, do them on your own time.

(then again...I do recognize the slight irony of my posting this on the RO ;) )

Strang but true anecdote--at a previous job, there was a guy who brought a Bible to work everyday. He ends up getting fired...not for having the Bible, but for looking at internet porn.

[Fun King ded]

"The fear is implicit in a financially strong evangelical. God exists, or does not. Conferencing over a golf tee works in many flavors, none seem quite as bitter as a bible meeting for those without a book. Does her Book threaten your college coffee mug? Are you secure in what you believe? Greet this era of open faith, with open minds and closed wallets. You can believe, but you cannot profit from it. That is reserved for others. Life is only colorful when we choose to tread into the grey." So says the reverend. To the Fun King, weaknesses on display, strengths fer sum, but an easy angle fer the advantage.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

The Diabolical Biz Markie wonders what the reaction would be if he started referring to himself in the 3rd person.

And I have not any idea what the Fun King is saying.

[Westley]

The Diabolical Biz Markie wonders what the reaction would be if he started referring to himself in the 3rd person.

Kinda cool. Very Dole-esque. It actually sounds significantly cooler because the first part of your name is "The".

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Kinda cool. Very Dole-esque. It actually sounds significantly cooler because the first part of your name is "The".
The Diabolical Biz Markie hears you.

The Diabolical Biz Markie likes his name, not only because it starts with "the" but because it contains an adjective. Not unlike "Marvelous Marvin Hagler".

The Diabolical Biz Markie does get tired spelling it all out though--He can see why the first person pronoun was invented.

[Triangle Man]

The Diabolical Biz Markie does get tired spelling it all out though--He can see why the first person pronoun was invented.Thank God for Rufus Xavier Sasparilla!

[Griffin 4]

Why does anyone care if a co-worker keeps a Bible, Talmud, or Koran on his or her desk at work?

[Griffin 4]

And I've heard several people make the claim that the Separation of Church and State somehow extends to the workplace, mostly, from people who get offended at seeing a Bible on someone's desk.

[Jack]

I don't see why anyone would be offended either. We should keep in mind however that it's not the persons desk but the company's desk. The company could forbid religious literature from desks if they feel it hinders the company's objectives.

[Atheist Man]

If I kept an object on my desk expressing my religious beliefs, I'm pretty sure my co-workers would take offense and complain about it, and I'd be told to remove it.

[Griffin 4]

If I kept an object on my desk expressing my religious beliefs, I'm pretty sure my co-workers would take offense and complain about it, and I'd be told to remove it.Would you take offense and complain if any of them kept a Bible, Talmud, or Koran on his or her desk?

[Atheist Man]

Would you take offense and complain if any of them kept a Bible, Talmud, or Koran on his or her desk?No.

[Griffin 4]

No.Then you should thank the Lord that He graced you with integrity.

[glenn]

I call no fair on the RO analogy. This is work related. It's not called the bibleoutpost.com y'know.

</biased reply>

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

The Diabolical Biz Markie wonders what the reaction would be if he started referring to himself in the 3rd person.

And I have not any idea what the Fun King is saying.

Dare to be different. Use the 2nd person!

[Pseudolus]

It's not called the bibleoutpost.com y'know.Not until the Pan-North-American Theocracy takes over, anyway.

Wait, I don't think I was supposed to say that publically.

[Polly Nomial]

I don't see a problem with a bible on a desk. (I keep a dictionary on my desk) The problem is when religion makes it into public space or time.

But i know that displaying your religion (or lack thereof) at the work place is not always accepted even when it is in your personal space.

Many of you recall my dismay at receiving a santa at a company gift exchange. Each letter was on a separate block, so i rearranged the blocks to spell satan. It was in my cubicle. Needless to say several of my coworkers were offended.

[Pseudolus]

Isn't it reasonable to assume that someone who spells "SATAN" out on their desk is doing so with the full knowledge and likely intention of causing offense? And isn't this not true of spelling out "SANTA"? Well, lots of people are offended when someone thinks so little of them as to go out of their way to cause offense. People are funny that way.

[Malik Shabazz]

I fail to see the harm in having a bible on one's desk. I know that some people read the bible at lunch-time the same way I scan the newspaper. I also know that a religious Jew or Muslim is supposed to pray several times a day (Jews 3, Muslims 5), so I wouldn't be surprised to see a prayer book near her/his desk.

In a similar vein, I post political cartoons on my bulletin board -- nothing offensive, but certainly expressive of my views. At a client's office, I have seen similar items on bulletin boards with biblical or Christian messages.

All the same, if somebody were offended by something on my board I would remove it, and I would hope that others would do the same... within reason. If somebody were offended by a photo of a gay cow-orker and his partner, I think the offended party has to deal with it.

[Atheist Man]

Isn't it reasonable to assume that someone who spells "SATAN" out on their desk is doing so with the full knowledge and likely intention of causing offense? And isn't this not true of spelling out "SANTA"? Well, lots of people are offended when someone thinks so little of them as to go out of their way to cause offense. People are funny that way.I'm almost 100% sure that someone who keeps a Bible in public view on his desk is doing so at least partially in hopes of evangelization. He may never publicly bring up God, but he's hoping that some poor, lost soul will notice his Bible and come talk to him about this aching void in his life that only Jesus can fill. He's doing advertising for God. Most people do not find this offensive, because Jesus is so prevalent in our society already.

But if I put up a sign expressing my atheism and specifically my hostility towards Christianity, in the hope that some luke-warm Christian will know that he's not the only one who finds that particular religion a harmful sham, and might find the courage to stop paying lip service to such a vile, sadistic monster, I'm pretty sure I'd get in trouble.

[Pseudolus]

Your paragraphs are not parallel.

[The Drunken Actuary]

The Diabolical Biz Markie hears you.
As does The Drunken Actuary.
The Diabolical Biz Markie likes his name, not only because it starts with "the" but because it contains an adjective. Not unlike "Marvelous Marvin Hagler".

The Diabolical Biz Markie does get tired spelling it all out though--He can see why the first person pronoun was invented.The Drunken Actuary agrees with that stuff too.

[Happy Professional]

(Jews 3, Muslims 5).

Only because Saul was sent off in the 63rd minute for tripping.

[The Drunken Actuary]

I'm almost 100% sure that someone who keeps a Bible in public view on his desk is doing so at least partially in hopes of evangelization. He may never publicly bring up God, but he's hoping that some poor, lost soul will notice his Bible and come talk to him about this aching void in his life that only Jesus can fill. He's doing advertising for God. Most people do not find this offensive, because Jesus is so prevalent in our society already.

But if I put up a sign expressing my atheism and specifically my hostility towards Christianity, in the hope that some luke-warm Christian will know that he's not the only one who finds that particular religion a harmful sham, and might find the courage to stop paying lip service to such a vile, sadistic monster, I'm pretty sure I'd get in trouble.
The Drunken Actuary agree with this stuff too.

[Griffin 4]

But if I put up a sign expressing my atheism and specifically my hostility towards Christianity,.

[Malik Shabazz]

Only because Saul was sent off in the 63rd minute for tripping. :lol:

[Malik Shabazz]

I'm almost 100% sure that someone who keeps a Bible in public view on his desk is doing so at least partially in hopes of evangelization.I disagree. I think most people who keep a bible in plain view are hoping to make a connection with another believer in their office.

[Levin]

If I kept an object on my desk expressing my religious beliefs, I'm pretty sure my co-workers would take offense and complain about it, and I'd be told to remove it.
What would such an object look like? Would it be made out of brick? Sticks? Some other material?

[Atheist Man]

What would such an object look like? Would it be made out of brick? Sticks? Some other material?Some people at the office I work at have little posters with religious phrases on them. What do you think people would say if I put up a sign which read:

God is: (choose all that apply, but no fewer than one)
a) Dumb
b) Sadistic
c) Inept
d) a Fairy Tale

[Elisha]

Why would having a Bible on your desk (or Talmud, or Koran, etc.) necessarily be to express your religious beliefs, but to remind yourself on your own? I haven't happened to bring the diptych (a small foldering icon of Christ on one side and the Virgin Mary w/ Christ child on the other, about 2x2 inches) to this job, but it was on my desk for my previous job. I think I got a random comment or two the whole time, one of them being "Oh, that's a nice Madonna and child" (more of a RC than an Orthodox way of referring to one of the two mini icons, but nice comment nonetheless). Again, it was there for me - to remind myself. Not to advertise to coworkers. Now, I also had several This Modern World comics pinned up on the wall. They took up much more space, were much more notable and I would suspect more potentially inflammatory as well.

My point? I think some of your presuppositions are off.

[Griffin 4]

Some people at the office I work at have little posters with religious phrases on them. What do you think people would say if I put up a sign which read:

God is: (choose all that apply, but no fewer than one)
a) Dumb
b) Sadistic
c) Inept
d) a Fairy TaleWhat are some of those religious phrases? "Burn in Hell, you damned atheist"?

[Atheist Man]

What are some of those religious phrases? "Burn in Hell, you damned atheist"?Aren't all religious phrases just variations on that theme? (OK, I'm exaggerating things just a little bit again.)

[Griffin 4]

Aren't all religious phrases just variations on that theme? (OK, I'm exaggerating things just a little bit again.)More than just a little bit. You are trying to make the claim that a hostile pro-atheist phrase is equivalent to the pro-religion phrases your co-workers display.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

I'm almost 100% sure that someone who keeps a Bible in public view on his desk is doing so at least partially in hopes of evangelization.

Actually, in a prior job, at a small ultra-conservative company, I kept a Bible in sight in part to avoid being proselytized to.

I felt very uncomfortable being a heathen at that company.

[Atheist Man]

More than just a little bit. You are trying to make the claim that a hostile pro-atheist phrase is equivalent to the pro-religion phrases your co-workers display.What might a non-hostile pro-atheist phrase look like?

Also, I might make the case (I'm not sure I can, I'd have to give it a bit more thought) that Christianity is inherently hostile to atheists, so therefore every Christian phrase carries a bit of hostility to me by association. I might be only thinking of my mother, though.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Also, I might make the case (I'm not sure I can, I'd have to give it a bit more thought) that Christianity is inherently hostile to atheists, so therefore every Christian phrase carries a bit of hostility to me by association.

If you weren't an atheist, you would look at this statement of yours as evidence of extreme oversensitivity, to the point of paranoia.

[Malik Shabazz]

Why would having a Bible on your desk (or Talmud, or Koran, etc.) necessarily be to express your religious beliefs, but to remind yourself on your own? I haven't happened to bring the diptych (a small foldering icon of Christ on one side and the Virgin Mary w/ Christ child on the other, about 2x2 inches) to this job, but it was on my desk for my previous job. I think I got a random comment or two the whole time, one of them being "Oh, that's a nice Madonna and child" (more of a RC than an Orthodox way of referring to one of the two mini icons, but nice comment nonetheless). Again, it was there for me - to remind myself. Not to advertise to coworkers. Now, I also had several This Modern World comics pinned up on the wall. They took up much more space, were much more notable and I would suspect more potentially inflammatory as well.

My point? I think some of your presuppositions are off.Good point, Elisha. In addition to a picture of me and Mrs. S, I have pictures of people who mean a lot to me on/around my desk. (I would name them, but that would reveal my "Clark Kent" identity.)

[IMP]

i dont see how it would be offensive. it's not like someone is throwing his/her religion at you. i could understand being uncomfortable or something like that if the bible/koran/whatever does not represent your own belief.

think about this though. many people...i guess more women than men...wear necklaces with a cross/star of david/whatever. should others in the workplace be offended by that too? i would hope not.

there is a person in my office who takes 5-10 minutes of his/her lunchtime after eating to go into a conference room and have silent time....to pray, to meditate, to whatever. this person does it on his/her own time, but uses company space...should that be considered offensive as well? i would hope not.

just pointing out that sometimes in this cynical world we live in, people do things for themselves to make themselves feel good, not to offend others. why do other people seem to find fault? (it's monday...sorry if you detect edginess ;))

[Tim><]

i dont see how it would be offensive. it's not like someone is throwing his/her religion at you. i could understand being uncomfortable or something like that if the bible/koran/whatever does not represent your own belief.

think about this though. many people...i guess more women than men...where necklaces with a cross/star of david/whatever. should others in the workplace be offended by that too? i would hope not.

there is a person in my office who takes 5-10 minutes of his/her lunchtime after eating to go into a conference room and have silent time....to pray, to meditate, to whatever. this person does it on his/her own time, but uses company space...should that be considered offensive as well? i would hope not.

just pointing out that sometimes in this cynical world we live in, people do things for themselves to make themselves feel good, not to offend others. why do other people seem to find fault? (it's monday...sorry if you detect edginess ;))The Drunken Actuary agrees with this statement.

[Levin]

What might a non-hostile pro-atheist phrase look like?
Good question. Give it a try.

[L. Mo]

o lord, here I am in political again.


I've seen Bibles at work, some folks read it on their breaks. I usually have no problem with it. I've also seen Siddurim, Talmud. I don't believe I've seen a Koran, but that could be coincidental. There are those with biblical phrases on their personal bulletin boards, but they're usually small, and usually not of the "if you're not Christian, you'll burn" type stuff. I have no problem with any of this.

What bothers me is when a meeting is referred to as a "come to Jesus" meeting...usually has no religious content except for the unfortunate moniker.

What bothers me is the assumption that everyone is a Christian, and therefore celebrates Christmas and Easter. "Are you going home for Christmas?" uh, no.

[Polly Nomial]

What might a non-hostile pro-atheist phrase look like?

Also, I might make the case (I'm not sure I can, I'd have to give it a bit more thought) that Christianity is inherently hostile to atheists, so therefore every Christian phrase carries a bit of hostility to me by association...

This is interesting. I totally agree. It's clear that any pro-atheist phrase (at least all of the ones I can think of) is hostile to Christianity. Thus by reciprocity, Chritian phrases carry hostility towards atheist.

[Griffin 4]

o What bothers me is the assumption that everyone is a Christian, and therefore celebrates Christmas and Easter. "Are you going home for Christmas?" uh, no.Yeah, I hate it, too, when co-workers show any interest in my life.

[Pseudolus]

Perhaps instead of posting an expression of disbelief, one might post a picture or phrase relating to something one affirmatively does "believe in" or otherwise support.

[Father of two]

What bothers me is the assumption that everyone is a Christian, and therefore celebrates Christmas and Easter. "Are you going home for Christmas?" uh, no.

December 25 IS Christmas day. That is a fact. If you choose to celebrate it is a different matter.

[Triangle Man]

Perhaps instead of posting an expression of disbelief, one might post a picture or phrase relating to something one affirmatively does "believe in" or otherwise support.Then I'd definitely get fired. And probably arrested.

[Griffin 4]

This is interesting. I totally agree. It's clear that any pro-atheist phrase (at least all of the ones I can think of) is hostile to Christianity. Thus by reciprocity, Chritian phrases carry hostility towards atheist.Or, since at least some Christian phrases I can think of are not hostile to atheism, by reciprocity, there must be some non-hostile atheist phrases.

[Pseudolus]

It's clear that any pro-atheist phrase (at least all of the ones I can think of) is hostile to Christianity. Thus by reciprocity, Chritian phrases carry hostility towards atheist.That does not follow. You are basically saying that if you hate me, then, "by reciprocity", I hate you.

[Griffin 4]

That does not follow. You are basically saying that if you hate me, then, "by reciprocity", I hate you.Isn't that a Barney song?

[Polly Nomial]

Or, since at least some Christian phrases I can think of are not hostile to atheism, by reciprocity, there must be some non-hostile atheist phrases.

I accept that in priciple.

Will someone please suggest a non-hostile atheist phrase?

[Griffin 4]

I accept that in priciple.

Will someone please suggest a non-hostile atheist phrase?I've already used your argument to prove that such phrases exist. If you want an example, you'll have to do that work.

[Levin]

What bothers me is the assumption that everyone is a Christian, and therefore celebrates Christmas and Easter. "Are you going home for Christmas?" uh, no.
It is a reasonable assumption that most people you meet in America are Christians. Just as it is reasonable to assume that most people you meet drink alcohol. I've been asked to go out drinking with friends before, attend happy hour, participate in betting pools. I respectfully decline and generally give a brief explanation of why I'm not participating. ("I'm Mormon" tends to be enough of an explanation.) If you don't explain it, their best estimate will be that you are going somewhere for Christmas.

But as far as assuming most people are Christians, I believe that Atheist Man (along with an entire exam seminar) has been encouraged by a Jew to send his children to a Christian private school.

[Westley]

o lord, here I am

Why are you always pushing religion like this L. Mo?

What bothers me is when a meeting is referred to as a "come to Jesus" meeting.

What is this? I'm not familiar.

[The Mad Hatter]

Will someone please suggest a non-hostile atheist phrase?


How about this?

Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.

[Westley]

Is "Feel free to ask me why I'm an atheist" an offensive statement? Doesn't seem to me like it is. Certainly doesn't seem as offensive as Bible verses on a bulletin board.

[Polly Nomial]

That does not follow. You are basically saying that if you hate me, then, "by reciprocity", I hate you.

No it doesn't! All I am saying is that if christians are offended by someone's suggestion that there is no god, then it would suggest that an atheist is offended by the suggestion that there is a god.

So yes, I realize that one does not prove the other.

[Griffin 4]

No it doesn't! All I am saying is that if christians are offended by someone's suggestion that there is no god, then it would suggest that an atheist is offended by the suggestion that there is a god.

So yes, I realize that one does not prove the other.I know a diabetic who is offended when someone offers her a cookie. So this suggests that non-diabetics should be offended when they are not offered cookies.

[Griffin 4]

Is "Feel free to ask me why I'm an atheist" an offensive statement? Doesn't seem to me like it is. Certainly doesn't seem as offensive as Bible verses on a bulletin board.How about taking your "Ask an Actuary" button, and changing it to "Ask an Atheist"?

[llcooljabe]

Is "Feel free to ask me why I'm an atheist" an offensive statement? Doesn't seem to me like it is. Certainly doesn't seem as offensive as Bible verses on a bulletin board.

Why is that? Both are just words. Both carry meaning, both invite discussion. Both can imply condemnation--but this depends entirely on the reader.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

This is interesting. I totally agree. It's clear that any pro-atheist phrase (at least all of the ones I can think of) is hostile to Christianity. Thus by reciprocity, Chritian phrases carry hostily towards atheist.

The Diabolical Biz Markie respectfully disagrees.

The following statement, which is pro-atheist, is not hostile towards Christianity: I don't believe there is a God

On this board, that is usually said as

You Christians are idiots for believing there is a God

which is hostile.

[Pseudolus]

I know a diabetic who is offended when someone offers her a cookie. So this suggests that non-diabetics should be offended when they are not offered cookies.That's the second cookie-related post I've read here today. Now I really want a freaking cookie!

How about taking your "Ask an Actuary" button, and changing it to "Ask an Atheist"?I just checked: BeanAthiest.com isn't taken yet!

[Polly Nomial]

Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.

Good try, but not really an atheistic sentiment.

Is "Feel free to ask me why I'm an atheist" an offensive statement? Doesn't seem to me like it is. Certainly doesn't seem as offensive as Bible verses on a bulletin board.

I agree. But then again, this is not really an atheistic phrase.

I'm not trying to be picky. My point is that if you say there is a god it should be regarded as being equally offensive as saying that there is not a god. And this is not the case.

[Griffin 4]

I'm not trying to be picky. My point is that if you say there is a god it should be regarded as being equally offensive as saying that there is not a god. And this is not the case.Why do you base what you are offended by on what others are offended by?

[Pseudolus]

Good try, but not really an atheistic sentiment.
[...]
I agree. But then again, this is not really an atheistic phrase.

You seem to define all non-hostile atheist phrases as not really athiest. Do you think that hostility is a necessary feature of atheism?

[Griffin 4]

You seem to define all non-hostile atheist phrases as not really athiest. Do you think that hostility is a necessary feature of atheism?If the atheist phrases are all hostile, then by reciprocity, the non-atheist phrases (which would be religious phrases) must all ne non-hostile.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

You seem to define all non-hostile atheist phrases as not really athiest. Do you think that hostility is a necessary feature of atheism?

I actually think it is. I posited an example of a non-hostile atheist phrase (one might say the atheist "creed")--I don't think it's a coincidence that atheists almost NEVER put forth their case that dispassionately.

if you dissect the words of the resident atheists, you'll see that their religion is more a visceral emotion reaction to theists rather than an actual viewpoint.

it's like the few Redskins fans you run into in Dallas. It isn't as though they actually LIKE the Redskins--they just hate cowboys fans.

[Polly Nomial]

OK. we have established that there do exist phrases on both sides that do not offend.

Let's move on to those that do offend. "Jesus died for our sins" "Man created god in his own image"

These are both offensive - I suppose because they generalize. My point is that the Jesus statement is tolerated to a greater degree than the atheist statement. Well, OK, this is a matter of opinion, so i believe the christian is given more room than the atheist.

[Griffin 4]

These are both offensive Explain the offense generated by each.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

If the atheist phrases are all hostile, then by reciprocity, the non-atheist phrases (which would be religious phrases) must all ne non-hostile.

Is it just me, or did Griffin walk into an obvious fallacy--are you putting us on?

[Pseudolus]

I believe Griffin may be reductio-ad-absurduming.

[Polly Nomial]

Explain the offense generated by each.

OK, perhaps "hostile" is a bit strong.

Jesus died for our sins suggests that he died for my sins. I find that offensive.

Man created god in his own image? This is probably similar in that it generalizes

[Griffin 4]

Is it just me, or did Griffin walk into an obvious fallacy--are you putting us on?I am reductio-ad-absurduming

[Pseudolus]

Jesus died for our sins suggests that he died for my sins. I find that offensive.You're offended that he died for your sins?

OK, you're offended that someone suggested thd4ys. The suggester isn't saying that you're stupid, or evil, or a sinner (any more than anyone else). Why be offended at that? If you believe otherwise, you believe otherwise.

[Levin]

Dear Mr. Russell,

I loved your books. I read them to my children every night. I have some comments on some quotes of yours that the Mad Hatter is quoting.

Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
That is a great quote. Besides the fact that I agree with it, I find it to be perfectly respectful to believers and atheists alike. Though you may mean "You don't need Christ," you haven't framed it in such a confrontational way.

So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence; and in this respect ministers of religion follow gospel authority more closely than in some others.
This is inflammatory. Besides the fact that I do not agree with it, I find it to be purposefully disrespectful to believers. You seem to mean "Religious leaders are more stupid than they are righteous," and the intent comes through.

[Griffin 4]

Jesus died for our sins suggests that he died for my sins. I find that offensive.Why would you find that offensive? Becuase someone thinks his or her god is universal, or because you don't think you have ever sinned*?

*"Sinned", as defined by the offending theist.

[Loner]

OK, perhaps "hostile" is a bit strong.

Jesus died for our sins suggests that he died for my sins. I find that offensive.

Man created god in his own image? This is probably similar in that it generalizes

I think you are misunderstanding the thrust of that phrase - it is an expression that Jesus died as a sacrifice for everyone, not that He died because you are bad. An expression that my God cares about you is not IMO offensive, nor would I take such as offensive from a believer in, say, Zeus.
If someone says, "You're in my prayers" do you get worked up over it, or just say "Thank you" and move on?

There's not much of a way to interpret your atheist sentiment except as "believers are frauds."

[Pseudolus]

My rule of thumb: There are too many people in this world being offensive on purpose to waste any time worrying about people who are trying to be nice.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

My rule of thumb: There are too many people in this world being offensive on purpose to waste any time worrying about people who are trying to be nice.

You would say that, you j*ckass.

( ;) )

[Jack]

It is a reasonable assumption that most people you meet in America are Christians. Just as it is reasonable to assume that most people you meet drink alcohol. I've been asked to go out drinking with friends before, attend happy hour, participate in betting pools. I respectfully decline and generally give a brief explanation of why I'm not participating. ("I'm Mormon" tends to be enough of an explanation.) If you don't explain it, their best estimate will be that you are going somewhere for Christmas.

But as far as assuming most people are Christians, I believe that Atheist Man (along with an entire exam seminar) has been encouraged by a Jew to send his children to a Christian private school.

We have several non-drinkers in our group who often go out for happy-hours, they generally drink ice-tea, coffee, seltzer etc. It's a good opportunity to meet and interact with various members of the staff in a less formal environment.

[L. Mo]

"come to Jesus" meeting

What is this? I'm not familiar.

This is one of those gather everyone together with a message of "everything's wrong, we need to do everything in our power to turn things around"...e.g., combined ratio, growth/lackthereof, etc.
Our former Chief was fond of calling these "come to Jesus" meetings, until I called him on it.

[Levin]

We have several non-drinkers in our group who often go out for happy-hours, they generally drink ice-tea, coffee, seltzer etc. It's a good opportunity to meet and interact with various members of the staff in a less formal environment.
I sometimes approach it that way as well. (Minus the iced tea and coffee. :-) Gimme a flavored lemonade, and we're on.)

[Pseudolus]

This is one of those gather everyone together with a message of "everything's wrong, we need to do everything in our power to turn things around"...e.g., combined ratio, growth/lackthereof, etc.
Our former Chief was fond of calling these "come to Jesus" meetings, until I called him on it.So there was no actual "Jesus" involved, he was just taking the name of Our Lord in vain? Thanks!

[Griffin 4]

IGimme a flavored lemonade, and we're on.What's a flavored lemonade? Is it lemon-flavored?

[Polly Nomial]

I think you are misunderstanding the thrust of that phrase - it is an expression that Jesus died as a sacrifice for everyone, not that He died because you are bad. An expression that my God cares about you is not IMO offensive, nor would I take such as offensive from a believer in, say, Zeus.
If someone says, "You're in my prayers" do you get worked up over it, or just say "Thank you" and move on?

There's not much of a way to interpret your atheist sentiment except as "believers are frauds."

OK - Let's back up a bit. I am not truly offended by the statement that Jesus died for my sins. In reality, its no big deal. (And yes, I realize it has nothing to do with whether or not i have sinned) Let's just say that I'm annoyed that your beliefs assume to encompass me.

Now, I agree that many atheistic statements imply that believers are frauds. I'm trying to make the point that this is equivalent to religious statements implying that i am unenlighted or bound for hell or just too stupid to recognize the signs of god or whatever. They are the same thing.

[Loner]

I sometimes approach it that way as well. (Minus the iced tea and coffee. :-) Gimme a flavored lemonade, and we're on.)
Thats what I do. Typically the bartender assumes I'm the designated driver and gives me my Coke for free. (After doing a double take because I look like a big beer drinker).

[Levin]

What's a flavored lemonade? Is it lemon-flavored?
Some eating establishments add additional flavors, such as strawberry, raspberry, blackberry, and kiwi, for a different, sweeter lemonade experience. I like them better than Sprite, which is what I usually get stuck with at happy hours.

[Pseudolus]

Now, I agree that many atheistic statements imply that believers are frauds. I'm trying to make the point that this is equivalent to religious statements implying that i am unenlighted or bound for hell or just too stupid to recognize the signs of god or whatever. They are the same thing.I agree that religious statements implying those things would be rude and out of place in an office. Now what statements are we talking about again?

[Griffin 4]

Let's just say that I'm annoyed that your beliefs assume to encompass me.That's a funny thing about Universal Truths - they tend to hold for everyone. I'll go out on a limb and say that you when you claim there is no God, you mean there is no God for anyone.

[Polly Nomial]

I agree that religious statements implying those things would be rude and out of place in an office. Now what statements are we talking about again?

Those ones! :D I'm done here!

[L. Mo]

So there was no actual "Jesus" involved, he was just taking the name of Our Lord in vain? Thanks!

yep. that's it exactly.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

What's a flavored lemonade? Is it lemon-flavored?

:rofl:

[Polly Nomial]

That's a funny thing about Universal Truths - they tend to hold for everyone. I'll go out on a limb and say that you when you claim there is no God, you mean there is no God for anyone.

Whoops! Not quite done!

Yes, of course. That's why i don't generally hang signs saying so or at least why i shouldn't hang such signs.

Let me try this one more time. It is offensive for me to imply that you are stupid for not realizing that god is a myth. It is equally offensive for you to imply that i am missing something by not accepting god. That's all i want to say. .......except that it is my belief that christians are given more slack in these regards.

[Pseudolus]

It is offensive for me to imply that you are stupid for not realizing that god is a myth. It is equally offensive for you to imply that i am missing something by not accepting god. That's all i want to say. .......except that it is my belief that christians are given more slack in these regards.Not parallel.

[Griffin 4]

Let me try this one more time. It is offensive for me to imply that you are stupid for not realizing that god is a myth. It is equally offensive for you to imply that i am missing something by not accepting god. That's all i want to say. .......except that it is my belief that christians are given more slack in these regards."You are missing something" and "You are stupid" are equally offensive?

[Pseudolus]

Point - Pseudolus.

[Triangle Man]

That's a funny thing about Universal Truths - they tend to hold for everyone. I'll go out on a limb and say that you when you claim there is no God, you mean there is no God for anyone.You and I would say that, but I've known people who tried to convince me otherwise. That I could believe A, you could believe ~A, and we could both be correct.

[Pseudolus]

So you've known some incorrect people. Haven't we all?

[Griffin 4]

You and I would say that, but I've known people who tried to convince me otherwise. That I could believe A, you could believe ~A, and we could both be correct.The non-existence of Universal Truths does not invalidate their definition.

[Westley]

I believe Griffin may be reductio-ad-absurduming.Which would certainly be the first time that any argument with Grif became absurd.

[Griffin 4]

Which would certainly be the first time that any argument with Grif became absurd.Ha ha, Wesley's intimidated.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

That's a funny thing about Universal Truths - they tend to hold for everyone. I'll go out on a limb and say that you when you claim there is no God, you mean there is no God for anyone.

:lol:

You are on a damn roll today.

[Polly Nomial]

"You are missing something" and "You are stupid" are equally offensive?

Oh, give me a break! We are talking about implications. "You are missing something" is close enough to "You are stupid"

[Roomba]

I know a diabetic who is offended when someone offers her a cookie. So this suggests that non-diabetics should be offended when they are not offered cookies.
I'm offended when not offered cookies. Therefore, I am not diabetic!!!
QED

[Griffin 4]

Oh, give me a break! We are talking about implications. "You are missing something" is close enough to "You are stupid"Okay then. Polly, you are missing something.

[Triangle Man]

I'm offended when hot women do not offer to sleep with me. I'm a happily married man, so I'd turn them down of course, but they should still offer, just to be polite and feed my ego.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

I know that I'm late bringing this up, but....

December 25 IS Christmas day. That is a fact.

Try telling that to an Orthodox Christian.

[Griffin 4]

Try telling that to an Orthodox Christian.They are missing something.

[Polly Nomial]

Okay then. Polly, you are missing something.

Ahhhh! Another thread gone to flirt! ;)

[Griffin 4]

Ahhhh! Another thread gone to flirt! You know it. Insert winky smiley thing.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

They are missing something.

They'd argue that their Roman cousins are missing a few things -- a few leap days, to be precise.

[Lucy]

I'm almost 100% sure that someone who keeps a Bible in public view on his desk is doing so at least partially in hopes of evangelization. . .Now I'm amused. In a prior job I used to keep a bible on my bookshelf next to my dictionary and my phone book and almanac. It was there for reference. We used to talk about all sorts of stuff at lunch, and sometimes it was handy to have a bible. The only evangelization I've ever done was to lead a lost soul away from his church into atheism - using that bible, sometimes. (I've since stopped that sort of thing.)

I never left it out on the desk, but I kept a Book of Mormon in my bag for a while because I was reading it on the train.

I wouldn't be offended, or uncomfortable, by a Koran, or a Buddhist tract, or whatever, if it sat quietly on the desk.

[Griffin 1]

I wouldn't be offended, or uncomfortable, by a Koran, or a Buddhist tract, or whatever, if it sat quietly on the desk.It's those Bibles that are always shouting curse words that offend me.

[Elisha]

I know that I'm late bringing this up, but....



Try telling that to an Orthodox Christian.

Not for me - I'm on the Revised Julian Calendar. Hah! You didn't see that coming.

[Utanapishtim]

That's the second cookie-related post I've read here today. Now I really want a freaking cookie!

I just checked: BeanAthiest.com isn't taken yet!
So, if you're a Bean Athiest, do you believe specifically that there's no Bean God, that there is a general-purpose God who just happens to ignore beans, or that since if there were a God he'd clearly be a bean, and he isn't, there's no God at all?

Personally, I believe the bean athiests are, as they say, missing something.

[Lucy]

So, if you're a Bean Athiest, do you believe specifically that there's no Bean God, that there is a general-purpose God who just happens to ignore beans, or that since if there were a God he'd clearly be a bean, and he isn't, there's no God at all?

Personally, I believe the bean athiests are, as they say, missing something.No, I think it just means you hired the same lousy publicist as the actuarial community.

[Pseudolus]

They probably found him on BeanPublicist.com.

[IMP]

i just remembered something...

i work for a company full of good ol southern boys. on a couple of occasions, we have had company meetings and before or after the meetings, there was like a silent prayer or even a spoken thanks to god or whatever. now, i wasn't offended b/c nothing bad was directed towards me in any way, but i was a little uncomfortable because i just don't think it was an appropriate thing for the workplace and i at unease. but when it's the ceo and president, i guess you kinda go along...i just kept my head down and had my own private thoughts.

on another occassion at a previous employer, there was a voluntary "meeting" in a conference room that i did attend. it was shortly after 9/11. given that this was a voluntary spontaneous, i suspected that there would be some sort of prayer involved. again...i was not offended, but a little uncomfortable b/c i was the only jewish person and everyone else was doing what was a normal prayer for them. but given the reason why i chose to attened this voluntary "meeting", i was pretty ok with it.

just food for thought. i guess i dont understand why people would be offended in other situations described no this thread. uncomfortable, yes. offended, no.

[llcooljabe]

i guess i dont understand why people would be offended in other situations described no this thread. uncomfortable, yes. offended, no.

Does Discomfort=offense for those who are offended?

[Elisha]

I MUST PASS,
Even as one of the more "right-leaning" members of this forum (being a Conservative Christian to use a broad term), I'm still rather surprised to hear of instances like these. Maybe it's because I've lived my whole life in California that I wouldn't think to ever encounted a situation such as this. Even if I was more or less of the same mindset as your CEO/Prez, I would still find such a situation "uncomfortable". Now, my company had some type of "memorial" thing outside at the flagpole a little while after 9/11. But it was outside, no pressure to attend and probably less hokey and uncomfortable than your situation. In some of these, some type of a "moment of silence" might be the most appropriate.