Do Unto Others

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

This is from the WSJ Opinion Page--I thought it made a good point that frequently gets overlooked...

With the revelation that a copy of the Quran may have been desecrated by U.S. military personnel at Guantanamo Bay, Muslims and their governments -- including that of Saudi Arabia -- reacted angrily. This anger would have been understandable if the U.S. government's adopted policy was to desecrate our Quran. But even before the Newsweek report was discredited, that was never part of the allegations.

As a Muslim, I am able to purchase copies of the Quran in any bookstore in any American city, and study its contents in countless American universities. American museums spend millions to exhibit and celebrate Muslim arts and heritage. On the other hand, my Christian and other non-Muslim brothers and sisters in Saudi Arabia -- where I come from -- are not even allowed to own a copy of their holy books. Indeed, the Saudi government desecrates and burns Bibles that its security forces confiscate at immigration points into the kingdom or during raids on Christian expatriates worshiping privately.

Soon after Newsweek published an account, later retracted, of an American soldier flushing a copy of the Quran down the toilet, the Saudi government voiced its strenuous disapproval. More specifically, the Saudi Embassy in Washington expressed "great concern" and urged the U.S. to "conduct a quick investigation."

Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Quran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia. This would seem curious to most people because of the fact that to most Muslims, the Bible is a holy book. But when it comes to Saudi Arabia we are not talking about most Muslims, but a tiny minority of hard-liners who constitute the Wahhabi Sect.

The Bible in Saudi Arabia may get a person killed, arrested, or deported. In September 1993, Sadeq Mallallah, 23, was beheaded in Qateef on a charge of apostasy for owning a Bible. The State Department's annual human rights reports detail the arrest and deportation of many Christian worshipers every year. Just days before Crown Prince Abdullah met President Bush last month, two Christian gatherings were stormed in Riyadh. Bibles and crosses were confiscated, and will be incinerated. (The Saudi government does not even spare the Quran from desecration. On Oct. 14, 2004, dozens of Saudi men and women carried copies of the Quran as they protested in support of reformers in the capital, Riyadh. Although they carried the Qurans in part to protect themselves from assault by police, they were charged by hundreds of riot police, who stepped on the books with their shoes, according to one of the protesters.)

As Muslims, we have not been as generous as our Christian and Jewish counterparts in respecting others' holy books and religious symbols. Saudi Arabia bans the importation or the display of crosses, Stars of David or any other religious symbols not approved by the Wahhabi establishment. TV programs that show Christian clergymen, crosses or Stars of David are censored.

...
The lesson here is simple: If Muslims wish other religions to respect their beliefs and their Holy book, they should lead by example.



I find this a pattern, not just with treatment of Holy Books. The US press goes nuts if US forces ever touch a mosque, but the reaction when gunmen enter a Church in Pakistan and slaughter people while they worship is a bit muted.

Why is it that we feel so compelled to respect the rights and protect the sensibilities of a religion whose adherents, when in power, generally NEVER respect the rights or feelings of those of other religions. It isn't just Saudi Arabia either....

Same goes for treatment of prisoners. I fail to see why Abu Ghraib, bad though it was, compares to what happened to Daniel Pearl and so many others.

[Guerilla poster]

This is from the WSJ Opinion Page--I thought it made a good point that frequently gets overlooked...



I find this a pattern, not just with treatment of Holy Books. The US press goes nuts if US forces ever touch a mosque, but the reaction when gunmen enter a Church in Pakistan and slaughter people while they worship is a bit muted.

Why is it that we feel so compelled to respect the rights and protect the sensibilities of a religion whose adherents, when in power, generally NEVER respect the rights or feelings of those of other religions. It isn't just Saudi Arabia either....

Same goes for treatment of prisoners. I fail to see why Abu Ghraib, bad though it was, compares to what happened to Daniel Pearl and so many others.


I suppose it depends on whether you think the US, land of the free and the brave and beacon of the world, should be held to higher standards than some nutty Islamic countries.

Personally, I find it hilarious when people get bent out of shape over symbolism, burning flags, flushing holy books.

[PK]

Why is it that we feel so compelled to respect the rights and protect the sensibilities of a religion whose adherents, when in power, generally NEVER respect the rights or feelings of those of other religions[?] Paraphrasing from your article:The lesson here is simple: If any group wishs other groups to respect their beliefs and their values, they should lead by example.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Paraphrasing from your article:

Point taken. I am whining about others not leading by example...that shouldn't mean that we not lead by example.

Good point.

[Titania]

Wow, Shekky, I'm glad you agreed with PK (cuz I do.)

We're supposed to be the good guys, and show them the way.

That's why it's terrible for us to torture people at Abu Ghraib; we were supposed to be freeing Iraq from such things. That event undermined our credibility.

[Guerilla poster]

Wow, Shekky, I'm glad you agreed with PK (cuz I do.)

We're supposed to be the good guys, and show them the way.

That's why it's terrible for us to torture people at Abu Ghraib; we were supposed to be freeing Iraq from such things. That event undermined our credibility.


This is the point exactly, we can't speak as if we are the moral authority if we don't act like it. Of course we will never be perfect but we should at least aim for perfection.

[MG]

Personally, I find it hilarious when people get bent out of shape over symbolism, burning flags, flushing holy books.

Agreed, although I find it more irritating than hilarious. The article I read on Yahoo yesterday had a quote from someone who said something to the effect of "this is a serious crime committed against 1.xx million Muslims" (i.e. the act of flushing the Koran down the toilet). Give me a break. Rape and murder and physical assault are serious crimes.

[Happy Salvador]

Personally, I find it hilarious when people get bent out of shape over symbolism, burning flags, flushing holy books.

Usually it's all they have...

[horace goldfarb]

I find this a pattern, not just with treatment of Holy Books. The US press goes nuts if US forces ever touch a mosque, but the reaction when gunmen enter a Church in Pakistan and slaughter people while they worship is a bit muted. I think you're missing the point. Noticed that the press is a bit muted about the human rights violations in China since we became trading buddies with them? What about Saudi Arabia? If Hussein did this, we'd never hear the end of it, but we don't want to embarrass our "allies in the war on terror." The problem with claiming the moral high ground in any of this is the double standard we're forced to adopt. We shouldn't be complaining about human rights violations at all if we're not going to demand the same thing from all countries involved.

It's almost a bit unfair to the US to be expected to be the knight in shining armor all the time. You can shout about freedom and democracy for decades, but one little CIA-orchestrated right-wing coup, and your credibility's shot. I almost wish we'd drop the act, and just tell the world we're imperialistic warmongers, out for our own interest, and not interested in justice and freedom. At least the propaganda would be more palatable.

[Jack]

We're the good guys(or at least we should be). We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Saudi Arabia is a horribly oppressive evil country. You wouldn't know that if you observed how dirty the knees of Bush's pants are after he meets with the royal family.

[Griffin 4]

Personally, I find it hilarious when people get bent out of shape over symbolism, burning flags, flushing holy books.A person who burns a flag or flushes a holy book is generally making a statement through that action. The people who react understand this - why don't you?

[Guerilla poster]

A person who burns a flag or flushes a holy book is generally making a statement through that action. The people who react understand this - why don't you?


I think statements are meaningless and just meant to provoke re-action. Non reaction is the best action.

[Griffin 4]

I think statements are meaningless and just meant to provoke re-action.I doubt that.

[lawfi5h]

This is the point exactly, we can't speak as if we are the moral authority if we don't act like it. Of course we will never be perfect but we should at least aim for perfection.

Exactly...but I think the point of the Opinion in the WSJ is how can people over there be so enraged when their own country does it the same...and worse? We absolutely should not engage in such acts, but for the Saudi gov't to become enraged by it and for people to protest over it is beyond me.

If it did happen (which I guess now it seems like it did not), rather than the US saying "well, you do it too" it really should be "yes, we did it, our bad" and then use that to shed light on the fact that these things happen in YOUR country too. If the Saudi gov't wants an investigation, give it to them. As a matter of fact, invite them to the table. And then ask them how that differs from people being beheaded for the bible.

[Triangle Man]

A person who burns a flag or flushes a holy book is generally making a statement through that action. The people who react understand this - why don't you?But almost always the uproar relates not to the statement, but to the action. The statement, when there is one, is typically completely lost in the uproar over the action itself.

[Griffin 4]

Exactly...but I think the point of the Opinion in the WSJ is how can people over there be so enraged when their own country does it the same...and worse? We absolutely should not engage in such acts, but for the Saudi gov't to become enraged by it and for people to protest over it is beyond me.I.e., part of being a leader is expecting others to follow your lead.

[Triangle Man]

If it did happen (which I guess now it seems like it did not), rather than the US saying "well, you do it too" it really should be "yes, we did it, our bad" and then use that to shed light on the fact that these things happen in YOUR country too. If the Saudi gov't wants an investigation, give it to them. As a matter of fact, invite them to the table. And then ask them how that differs from people being beheaded for the bible.Do they have a constitution which allows all citizens religious freedom?

[Griffin 4]

But almost always the uproar relates not to the statement, but to the action. The statement, when there is one, is typically completely lost in the uproar over the action itself.Then why is there little or no uproar when there is no statement behind the action?

[Griffin 4]

Do they have a constitution which allows all citizens religious freedom?Not yet.

[lawfi5h]

Do they have a constitution which allows all citizens religious freedom?

But that isn't the point. They aren't protesting because we are violating our constitution. The Saudi gov't has zero authority to enforce our constituion.

So clearly their concern is something larger than the enforcement of US laws.

[Titania]

I almost wish we'd drop the act, and just tell the world we're imperialistic warmongers, out for our own interest, and not interested in justice and freedom. At least the propaganda would be more palatable.Exactly. And when I'm freaking out about this Iraq war isn't about freedom and peace, this is why.

Let's just be honest about what we're doing, and stop the hypocrisy.

We might earn more respect that way.

[Titania]

Exactly...but I think the point of the Opinion in the WSJ is how can people over there be so enraged when their own country does it the same...and worse? Because they're just people with their own double standards and hypocrisies, just like Americans and the rest of humanity.

It's extremely hard to see the failings you condemn in others in yourself.

[lawfi5h]

Because they're just people with their own double standards and hypocrisies, just like Americans and the rest of humanity.

It's extremely hard to see the failings you condemn in others in yourself.

Wow...another statement that applies to most of the posters on here. You are en feugo today!

[Titania]

Wow...another statement that applies to most of the posters on here. You are en feugo today!
It applies to me, you, all posters, and everyone on the planet. It's just human nature.

It seems to me to be a basic understanding to keep in mind when in diplomatic situations...the other side isn't going to readily see how what they're doing is the same as what they accuse you of.

[Triangle Man]

Then why is there little or no uproar when there is no statement behind the action?Because those people believe that the actions themselves are wrong, independent of any message that might be behind it.

[Griffin 4]

I almost wish we'd drop the act, and just tell the world we're imperialistic warmongers, out for our own interest, and not interested in justice and freedom. At least the propaganda would be more palatable.Insert rolly eye thing.

[Griffin 4]

Because those people believe that the actions themselves are wrong, independent of any message that might be behind it.I don't think you read the question.

[2pac Shakur]

This is from the WSJ Opinion Page--I thought it made a good point that frequently gets overlooked...



I find this a pattern, not just with treatment of Holy Books. The US press goes nuts if US forces ever touch a mosque, but the reaction when gunmen enter a Church in Pakistan and slaughter people while they worship is a bit muted.

Why is it that we feel so compelled to respect the rights and protect the sensibilities of a religion whose adherents, when in power, generally NEVER respect the rights or feelings of those of other religions. It isn't just Saudi Arabia either....

Same goes for treatment of prisoners. I fail to see why Abu Ghraib, bad though it was, compares to what happened to Daniel Pearl and so many others.


All those things that happened over there? They are all our fault.
We are the occupying power.
That's what happens when you go running into a country, guns blazing.
It's called responsibility.
I figured conservatives, especially, would understand the meaning of the word.
I guess not.

[Triangle Man]

I don't think you read the question.I apologize. That was the Earth-2 Triangle Man. He has been sent back to his own dimension.

[Griffin 4]

I apologize. That was the Earth-2 Triangle Man. He has been sent back to his own dimension.Nano Nano.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

I think statements are meaningless and just meant to provoke re-action. Non reaction is the best action.

I agree with this.

Frankly, I am glad we live in a country where you can burn the country's flag. That means you can probably do other milder forms of protest without ending up hanging from your thumbs in a cell somewhere.

Let them burn the flags all they want.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

All those things that happened over there? They are all our fault.
We are the occupying power.
That's what happens when you go running into a country, guns blazing.
It's called responsibility.
I figured conservatives, especially, would understand the meaning of the word.
I guess not.

We are the occupying force in every Muslim country? Pakistan?

[2pac Shakur]

We are the occupying force in every Muslim country? Pakistan?

In Afghanistan and Iraq we are.
Have there been complaints about mosques destroyed by America in Pakistan?

[Pseudolus]

Complaints? Probably. Hell, I hear there have been complaints about the US stealing lakes in Russia.

[2pac Shakur]

Why is it that we feel so compelled to respect the rights and protect the sensibilities of a religion whose adherents, when in power, generally NEVER respect the rights or feelings of those of other religions. It isn't just Saudi Arabia either....

Same goes for treatment of prisoners. I fail to see why Abu Ghraib, bad though it was, compares to what happened to Daniel Pearl and so many others.


We "respect" them SO MUCH, that we stationed a couple hundred thousand troops in their holiest land - for years.

Why would they be upset with us? Just makes no sense. We just wanna send our military over to show them how much we respect their religion.

[Lucy]

I agree with this.

Frankly, I am glad we live in a country where you can burn the country's flag. That means you can probably do other milder forms of protest without ending up hanging from your thumbs in a cell somewhere.

Let them burn the flags all they want.I agree with you. And thanks for posting that op-ed piece, I thought about posting it myself, but saw that you beat me to it.

[E. Blackadder]

I agree with this.

Frankly, I am glad we live in a country where you can burn the country's flag. That means you can probably do other milder forms of protest without ending up hanging from your thumbs in a cell somewhere.

Let them burn the flags all they want.
Somehow I still want people to wrap themselves in a flag as they burn it. :wall:

[2pac Shakur]

The latest violence didn't occur directly because of Newsweek's report. What happned, is a bunch of people protested after the article came out. Nothing wrong with that, that's freedom - American style. The problem started when trigger happy troops (trained by America) opened fire on the protesters.
Not sure what the WSJ says about that.

Very similar to how things got started in Fallujah.
Of course, it's easier to just blame the "militant Muslims".

[thing]

Point taken. I am whining about others not leading by example...that shouldn't mean that we not lead by example.

Good point.

Just a quick appreciation to the Diabolical Skekky Idaho here for being able to see the other side of a position and concede when it's warranted. A beacon of rationality in the trenches of the Political forum, may he continue to lead by example and someday even 2Pac will be seen to post "You know, I see what you mean..."

[2pac Shakur]

Just a quick appreciation to the Diabolical Skekky Idaho here for being able to see the other side of a position and concede when it's warranted. A beacon of rationality in the trenches of the Political forum, may he continue to lead by example and someday even 2Pac will be seen to post "You know, I see what you mean..."

Shut up.

(kidding)

[Happy Salvador]

The latest violence didn't occur directly because of Newsweek's report. What happned, is a bunch of people protested after the article came out. Nothing wrong with that, that's freedom - American style. The problem started when trigger happy troops (trained by America) opened fire on the protesters.
Not sure what the WSJ says about that.

Very similar to how things got started in Fallujah.
Of course, it's easier to just blame the "militant Muslims".

Very not good biased synopisis.

[2pac Shakur]

Very not good biased synopisis.

Facts are stubborn things...

(I used John Adams' original quote because these instances are also similar to the Boston Massacre, I did not use Reagan's "facts are stupid things" which is similar to your quote).

[llcooljabe]

All those things that happened over there? They are all our fault.
We are the occupying power.
That's what happens when you go running into a country, guns blazing.
It's called responsibility.
I figured conservatives, especially, would understand the meaning of the word.
I guess not.

Religious persecution occurs on a daily basis in Saudi. They claim that you're allowed to practice your religion in the privacy of your own home, yet they raided 2 house churches a month ago and made numerous arrests. These are state sanctioned police. When were we in their country guns a blazing?

[llcooljabe]

We "respect" them SO MUCH, that we stationed a couple hundred thousand troops in their holiest land - for years.

Why would they be upset with us? Just makes no sense. We just wanna send our military over to show them how much we respect their religion.

What holy land is that?

[2pac Shakur]

What holy land is that?

Saudi Arabia.
You heard the gummint version of why Bin Laden attacked us, right?