The 14 Signs of Fascism

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

I found these in a blog (frjakestopstheworld.blogspot.com/2005/06/signs-of-fascism.html) I sometimes read. Google turns up a few different sources for the list, the best of which seems to be here (www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm). I'm not entirely sure I'd go so far as the author of the blog post would in the implication made...but it's thought-provoking nonetheless.


Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
Disdain for the importance of human rights.
Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
Rampant sexism.
A controlled mass media.
Obsession with national security.
Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Power of corporations protected.
Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
Obsession with crime and punishment.
Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Fraudulent elections.

[Pseudolus]

0/14 - lookin' good!

[E. Blackadder]

Why don't we at least try rampant sexism and see how that goes? :)

[Titania]

Why don't we at least try rampant sexism and see how that goes? :)
True colors shining through, I see.

Why don't you put your "I'm afraid of feminsts" sig line back up? You know, that one about that Harvard prof?

[MNBridge]

1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9

Are all increasing under the current administration. We are at least 1 Bush away from Facism, maybe Jeb can get us there!

[UNCORRELATED LAY]

An interesting note to end this article: As of January 2004, the United States fulfills all fourteen points of fascism and all seven warning signs are present. But we're not alone. Israel also fulfills all fourteen points and all seven warning signs as well. Welcome to the new republic, redefined, revised and spun. It is not too late to reverse this in either country, but it will be soon. The first step is realizing it. The second step is getting involved. As the propaganda slogan disguising our current war goes, "Freedom isn't free." But our war for freedom isn't abroad; it's here at home.

Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and Art. Please tell me where the population has suppressed intellectuals or artists. And I will show you 10x where radical opinions are being expressed that people are not up in arms over.

Fraudulent elections = meltdown

Rampant sexism. At no time in American history have we been less sexists.

The supremacy of the military/avid militarism - Americans support the military that is true. But look at the enrollment into the armed forces. They are having a hard time reaching their enrollment quotas every month. This is in complete contridiction to avid militarism.

Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism - so we have to hate our nation? Today is flag day, and yet I have not seen one person displaying a flag. Must be that powerful expression of nationalism.

A controlled mass media - by who? The righties complain that the lefties are controlling the media, while the lefties say the media is being censored.

[Titania]

While I do fear that some of the conditions on the list are becoming more prevalent, I think it's a bit silly to suggest that the US is becoming a fascist society.

[O. Hannah]

While it is important to address our own shortcomings...please try to keep the hyperbole down or it just comes across as political sniping. (ie. Gulag of our times, US = Facist.....)

It makes it a lot easier to dismiss complaints of your opponents in the public spectrum if the appearance of partisanship is blatant.

[fallout]

1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9

Are all increasing under the current administration. We are at least 1 Bush away from Facism, maybe Jeb can get us there!


Disdain for the importance of human rights.

You have a long way to go to prove this one.

[fallout]

I found these in a blog (frjakestopstheworld.blogspot.com/2005/06/signs-of-fascism.html) I sometimes read. Google turns up a few different sources for the list, the best of which seems to be here (www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm). I'm not entirely sure I'd go so far as the author of the blog post would in the implication made...but it's thought-provoking nonetheless.


Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
Disdain for the importance of human rights.
Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
Rampant sexism.
A controlled mass media.
Obsession with national security.
Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Power of corporations protected.
Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
Obsession with crime and punishment.
Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Fraudulent elections.



The best source you could find for fascims definition came from a site with this as it's right border?

Psalm 2003
(SATIRE)

Bush is my shepherd, I shall be in want.
He leadeth me beside the still factories,
He maketh me to lie down on park benches,
He restoreth my doubts about the Republican party,

He guideth me onto the paths of unemployment for the party's sake.
I do fear the evildoers, for thou talkst about them constantly.

Thy tax cuts for the rich and thy deficit spending
They do discomfort me.
Thou anointeth me with never-ending debt,
And my savings and assets shall soon be gone.
Surely poverty and hard living shall follow me,
And my jobless children shall dwell in my basement forever. -AMEN

Is your purpose here to make tupac seem more legit?

[MNBridge]

Disdain for the importance of human rights.

You have a long way to go to prove this one.

Abortion, Abu Ghraib (Thanks Titania :) ), increasing drug laws

[Titania]

Disdain for the importance of human rights.

Gitmo. Abu Ghraib. QED.

[MountainHawk]

This must have been posted 3 prior times. They are written in such a way to make the US look bad. They aren't any serious academic signs of fascism.

Those would be things like:

Closing the borders to not allow citizens to leave the country without paperwork.

No elections at all.

Military leaders in positions of political power.

Elimination of those that are not strong (i.e. lesser races, the disabled, the elderly).

Etc...

[MountainHawk]

Gitmo. Abu Ghraib. QED.

2 examples of bad. Thousand of examples of good. You lose.

[MikeTheTiger]

The problem with this list isn't that it isn't accurate, it's that many of the same characteristics could be used to describe any number of political/governmental systems throughout history. Essentially the author of the list started with the premise that the right-wing in this country is fascist, interpreted current events to fit that perception, then concocted a list of traits that could prove his/her initial premise. I could just as easily create a list of characteristics common to many communist regimes (most of which would coincide with the list here) and make them fit a stretched interpretation of current events. Does that prove we are headed toward communism?

[fallout]

Gitmo. Abu Ghraib. QED.


If it weren't for the importance of human rights, maybe some of these terrorist would actually be tortured?

Also, isn't the fact that involved people are being tried and punished contrary to your examples?

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

On the controlled mass media -- I'd agree that it's probably paranoid to think of our news media being "controlled"...but I can't help but notice that there's been very little coverage of the Downing Street memos or last week's Judiciary Committee circus in the media Joe Average American is most likely to encounter.

And isn't one of the GOP's media strategies (now being copied by the Dems) to make sure that their media liasons are proactively in contact with the media, making sure that the story's spun their way.

Also, does anyone remember the fuss a few months ago about the faux news reports the administration was peddling?

And, has there been a study done recently that shows how many Americans think that there were WMD's in Iraq at the time the war started, or whether Saddam had anything to do with 9/11?

For fraudulent elections -- I think it's probably not right to say that our election process is the victim of widespread fraud. But some of the controversy surrounding the move to computerized voting (e.g., lack of controls and hardcopy verification) and the claims made by the Conyers report are troubling.

As Fr. Jake wrote in his blog -- what's the best way to boil a frog?

[O. Hannah]

As Fr. Jake wrote in his blog -- what's the best way to boil a frog?

Irony. With all the cries of wolf....it is indeed easier to boil a frog eventually.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

This must have been posted 3 prior times. They are written in such a way to make the US look bad. They aren't any serious academic signs of fascism.
I did try the search function to see if it had been posted. Sorry for the dupe, I guess.

Those would be things like:

Closing the borders to not allow citizens to leave the country without paperwork.
C.f. the no-fly list, plans to require passports to re-enter the U.S. from Canada & Mexico, ....

No elections at all.
True...but given recent gerrymandering efforts, campaign finance realities, etc., more of our elections seem to have their outcomes pre-determined. Sure, the Presidential race last year was close, but what about the Congressional races?

Of course, even Hitler got his start as an elected official.

Military leaders in positions of political power.
I'm not sure I'd agree with this point. I'd substitute the government's use of its power and authority to monitor and manage its citizens' daily activities. C.f. Patriot Act, Real ID, CAPPS, Total Information Awareness....

Elimination of those that are not strong (i.e. lesser races, the disabled, the elderly).
That's funny, I was just reading about changes to government subsidies to encourage doctors to set up shop in underserved areas. Let's also not forget the closer government scrutiny of Muslims, and the recent exhortation of the governor of Texas for gays & lesbians to move elsewhere....

You still need to keep nationalism, the promotion of unity by persecution of a perceived enemy of the state, and corruption in the defining characteristics list, however.

[E. Blackadder]

2 examples of bad. Thousand of examples of good. You lose.
In Titania baseball, you can be up 100-0 and it doesn't matter. she wins if her team hits so much as a fowl ball.

deliberate misspelling. bug me not.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

Irony. With all the cries of wolf....it is indeed easier to boil a frog eventually.

I'd think that a reference to Cassandra (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra) might be more appropriate than the reference to the Three Little Pigs.

Boiling frog reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

[O. Hannah]

3 little pigs?

Think of 2 frogs in a pot...one keeps saying it's getting warmer...but in reality the heat hasn't turned up yet. When it does get turned up...the frogs claims are ignored due to all the previous false predictions...making it easier to catch the frogs unaware.

P.S. You are a fool if you think that elections today are dirtier than they were historically. At this point, it's fairly safe to guess you are a young democrat?

[MountainHawk]

C.f. the no-fly list, plans to require passports to re-enter the U.S. from Canada & Mexico, ....



Way to ignore what I wrote. That's to ENTER the country. Every nation in the world ask you to prove who you say you are upon entering. I said LEAVE the country. I've crossed the border with Canada dozens of times, and never once has the US asked me for paperwork on my way out.

In fascist states, they tend to require you to get permission before you EXIT the country. And they don't ever let you emigrate.


But keep trying though. You haven't made yourself look like a total hack yet.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Gitmo. Abu Ghraib. QED.

When Saddam was running the interrogations in Iraq, ACTUAL torture went on, and no one went to prison for committing it.

[Harry]

When Saddam was running the interrogations in Iraq, ACTUAL torture went on, and no one went to prison for committing it.

Saddam's in prison now, so maybe someday...

[MNBridge]

This must have been posted 3 prior times. They are written in such a way to make the US look bad. They aren't any serious academic signs of fascism.

Those would be things like:

Closing the borders to not allow citizens to leave the country without paperwork.

No elections at all.

Military leaders in positions of political power.

Elimination of those that are not strong (i.e. lesser races, the disabled, the elderly).

Etc...

I would certainly HOPE NOT, and I agree.

But that doesn't mean that the country isn't moving in that direction or that all this church / state stuff is OK. Or that we shouldn't be wary of things moving in a direction we don't agree with.

I guarantee you I have heard the expression:
It's right because we voted for Bush, so that's what the people want (after all why else would they vote for him?) as an excuse in this admin than I ever have in MY history. <--- Paraphrased.

I also don't remember any administration being so involved in personal freedom issues.

Buy weed support terrorists :lol: and people eat that crap up! (Do you REALLY think weed is being flown in from terrorist nations?) remember those ads?
Say I start putting people in jail for disagreeing the Gov't. Can I then make commercials about how Johnny wrecked not only his life but the life of those around him because he was in jail during the championship basketball game? And how had he not disagreed with GWB everything would be OK, and the city championship would be theirs!

Scary stuff BOOGA!

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

Way to ignore what I wrote. That's to ENTER the country. Every nation in the world ask you to prove who you say you are upon entering. I said LEAVE the country. I've crossed the border with Canada dozens of times, and never once has the US asked me for paperwork on my way out.

In fascist states, they tend to require you to get permission before you EXIT the country. And they don't ever let you emigrate.

Ah. Sorry. I missed the emigration reference. I was drawing the link of increased paperwork to enter the country = implied disincentive to leave the country = assumption that you want to return.

I'd make references to how reluctant the State Department and IRS are to permitting people to abandon their U.S. citizenship, but that really would be reaching.

But keep trying though. You haven't made yourself look like a total hack yet.

Nah. I'm just someone trying to get a more respectable post count. :D

(Happy 300 to me....)

[MountainHawk]

I would certainly HOPE NOT, and I agree.

But that doesn't mean that the country isn't moving in that direction or that all this church / state stuff is OK. Or that we shouldn't be wary of things moving in a direction we don't agree with.

I guarantee you I have heard the expression:
It's right because we voted for Bush, so that's what the people want (after all why else would they vote for him?) as an excuse in this admin than I ever have in MY history. <--- Paraphrased.

I also don't remember any administration being so involved in personal freedom issues.

Buy weed support terrorists :lol: and people eat that crap up! (Do you REALLY think weed is being flown in from terrorist nations?) remember those ads?
Say I start putting people in jail for disagreeing the Gov't. Can I then make commercials about how Johnny wrecked not only his life but the life of those around him because he was in jail during the championship basketball game? And how had he not disagreed with GWB everything would be OK, and the city championship would be theirs!

Scary stuff BOOGA!


Oh, I agree Bush has done a lot of bad stuff. But most of it isn't fascist type stuff, either. The Patriot Act is pretty hideous, but it's not nearly as restrictive as the hate speech laws of Italy and Canada, the anti-religion laws of France, or the anti-freedom of expression laws in Germany.

[Elisha]

Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.


Would the opposite of the above be Communism?

"Only a Sith speaks in absolutes."
-Obi Wan Kenobi, RotS

[yankeetripper]

I don't think anybody credible is drawing comparisons to GWB and Hitler of late 1930's Fascist Germany, rather, they are pointing out that there are a number of disturbing similarities between GWB and late 1920's early 1930's Germany when Fascist came to power and consolidated control of the state.

To name a few:

Laws favoring business over labor
Comparing Patriot Act to Enabling Act
Using Nationalism to start a war
Dean’s recent assertion that Fox is a proagada machineof Repubican party

[MountainHawk]

Laws favoring business over labor


I don't know ... I've seen laws preventing restaurant owners from allowing smoking creeping up all over the place. That's pretty pro-labor. Asbestos reform fell through ... again, pro-labor. There have been some pro-business stuff as well, but it's been going both ways.



Comparing Patriot Act to Enabling Act


A bad comparsion. The Enabling Act didn't expire. If the morons in Congress actually make it permanent, and the morons in the SCotUS don't find it unconstitution this time, then maybe you have a minor point. The Patriot Act is very, very evil. Not fascism on its own, though.


Using Nationalism to start a war


It wasn't nationalism that started this war. It was Bush's idiotic desire for revenge. You didn't have a national fervor saying we must go destroy the Iraqis. At it's peak, the war was only popular with about 2/3 of the American populus, and that was at a time when Americans felt vulnerable due to the recent attacks. Bush saw an opportunity and used it ... such a situation is unlikely to be repeatable.


Dean’s recent assertion that Fox is a proagada machineof Repubican party

Dean also made a accusation that many republicans ever had an honest day work in their life. Considering the colors of the states, and where most of the US farmers v white collar jobs are, I think that proves what an idiot he is and discredits any other statement he says.

[MNBridge]

Oh, I agree Bush has done a lot of bad stuff. But most of it isn't fascist type stuff, either. The Patriot Act is pretty hideous, but it's not nearly as restrictive as the hate speech laws of Italy and Canada, the anti-religion laws of France, or the anti-freedom of expression laws in Germany.

But one of the things that makes this Country GREAT is that we don't have those laws. Even if it does mean some may be offended.

So having laws that aren't AS BAD does not make them OK.

Although I think we agree on these points.

[MNBridge]

I don't know ... I've seen laws preventing restaurant owners from allowing smoking creeping up all over the place. That's pretty pro-labor.


Really? I don't think that pro anyone. It wasn't the restuarant / bar workers that wanted this, in fact it heavily effects their income (negatively).

... such a situation is unlikely to be repeatable.
That's a scary statement right there! :eek:

[Moe Szyslak]

2 examples of bad. Thousand of examples of good. You lose.Wow, thousands? I am convinced.

[Harry]

That's a scary statment right there! :eek:

That was my reaction too.

[MountainHawk]

But one of the things that makes this Country GREAT is that we don't have those laws. Even if it does mean some may be offended.

So having laws that aren't AS BAD does not make them OK.

Although I think we agree on these points.

Yeah, we do agree. Just saying, calling the US fascist or even on the way to fascism is way over the top.

Also, the two most egregious human rights violations the US has ever committed have both been under the leadership of Democratic Presidents, so this indigination that it's only Bush that could be this evil is obnoxious.

[MountainHawk]

Wow, thousands? I am convinced.

Easily.


A few off the top of my head:


Freedom of religion. (unlike France, where it's illegal to practice religion in school)

Gender equality. (For example, Titania is actually allowed to work, post here, wear what she wants, vote, own a car, a house, etc.)

Freedom of Speech. (Unlike Germany, Italy, and Canada, where saying the wrong thing can land you in jail)

Right to a jury of your peers. (Unlike most Asian nations, where a judge decides your fate.)

[MountainHawk]

Really? I don't think that pro anyone. It wasn't the restuarant / bar workers that wanted this, in fact it heavily effects their income (negatively).


Actually, at least the one in NYC, whcih is the one I was closest to, it was the bar workers that tended to be driving the legislation, as well as the health care profession.

[Harry]

Yeah, we do agree. Just saying, calling the US fascist or even on the way to fascism is way over the top.

Also, the two most egregious human rights violations the US has ever committed have both been under the leadership of Democratic Presidents, so this indigination that it's only Bush that could be this evil is obnoxious.

Just curious, which two violations do you have in mind?

[MountainHawk]

Just curious, which two violations do you have in mind?

The atomic bombing of cilivian cities and the japanese internment.

[Harry]

The atomic bombing of cilivian cities and the japanese internment.

OK, those are good ones. That's the scary thing about when politicians start using the phrase "we're at war" to justify things.

By the way, slavery was pretty bad too, but can't really be pinned on any one president...

[MountainHawk]

OK, those are good ones. That's the scary thing about when politicians start using the phrase "we're at war" to justify things.

By the way, slavery was pretty bad too, but can't really be pinned on any one president...

Yes, slavery was bad (probably between the two I listed, at least in my opinion), but that was more an institutional thing than a decision of a single president to be implemented.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

Freedom of religion. (unlike France, where it's illegal to practice religion in school)
Try following a religion outside the scope of Judeo-Christianity sometime.

Wasn't it a couple of weeks ago that a judge threw in a requirement into a divorce decree that the child of two pagans not be raised pagan?

I'm also sure that several atheists who love seeing their tax dollars go to support government-run events that begin with religious invocations might have a thing or two to say on this point as well.

Gender equality. (For example, Titania is actually allowed to work, post here, wear what she wants, vote, own a car, a house, etc.)
She isn't, of course, allowed to marry another woman, or in many places in the U.S. to go around as bare-chested in places that men are permitted to.

Freedom of Speech. (Unlike Germany, Italy, and Canada, where saying the wrong thing can land you in jail)
Just don't try to excercise that right close to the major party conventions.

Good luck getting to remain at a gathering where the President is appearing if you have bumperstickers on your car or a slogan on your shirt critical of the Administration.

And, I'm sure that those folks who were removed from the Inter-American Telephone Commission just because they made contributions to the Kerry campaign feel great about their freedom to express an opinion.

Right to a jury of your peers. (Unlike most Asian nations, where a judge decides your fate.)
Ask the Gitmo detainees or Jose Padilla about that particular inalienable right.

[MountainHawk]

Try following a religion outside the scope of Judeo-Christianity sometime.

Wasn't it a couple of weeks ago that a judge threw in a requirement into a divorce decree that the child of two pagans not be raised pagan?

I'm also sure that several atheists who love seeing their tax dollars go to support government-run events that begin with religious invocations might have a thing or two to say on this point as well.


I live in Salem, MA. Wiccans practice thier religion up here pretty freely. I also haven't heard about any Krystalnachts on Jewish people here in the US any time recently.



She isn't, of course, allowed to marry another woman, or in many places in the U.S. to go around as bare-chested in places that men are permitted to.



Some states she is, some she isn't. And the second one is a pretty much worldwide phenomenon. That's so incredibly weak, it's unbelieveable.


Just don't try to excercise that right close to the major party conventions.

Good luck getting to remain at a gathering where the President is appearing if you have bumperstickers on your car or a slogan on your shirt critical of the Administration.

And, I'm sure that those folks who were removed from the Inter-American Telephone Commission just because they made contributions to the Kerry campaign feel great about their freedom to express an opinion.


Don't know what you are talking about. Protest permits were available in both cities where conventions were held. I think the Boston police actually said they didn't make a single arrest of a protestor last year.


Ask the Gitmo detainees or Jose Padilla about that particular inalienable right.

Prisoners of war, and also not American citizens. They don't have a right to access the American criminal system.

[Elisha]

Just don't try to excercise that right close to the major party conventions.



So, why I can't I just walk into your (stock-held, thus "publicly owned") company and start shouting about how evil your employer is? I'm just exercising my freedom of speech.

Trying to equate legal rights to work with public indecency is completely dishonest and you know it.

I don't think I'm going out on too big of a limb when I say that "Marrying" someone of the same gender goes against the tenants of every major relgion of the world (I'm purposely disregarding any liberal "Christian" denominations since it such a recent innovation).

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

I live in Salem, MA. Wiccans practice thier religion up here pretty freely. I also haven't heard about any Krystalnachts on Jewish people here in the US any time recently.
Salem's a unique place. Try saying the same in Colorado Springs, where among other things, the USAF Academy has been criticized for a culture of religious intolerance.

Or, take the comment of one George W. Bush to ABC News in June 1999, where after reports of Wiccan being allowed to have space in Fort Hood he said, "I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."

Or, ask those prison inmates who have had to sue to be able to practice Wicca and Astaru behind bars.

I'm sure your neighbors in Salem could come up with other, similar examples.

Some states she is, some she isn't.
Correction -- in one state she is; in 49 others she isn't. In many of the 49, her marriage wouldn't be recognized even if it were performed in the one.

Of course, this could also be used as a point to the religious freedom argument. For example, consider that some liberal Christian denominations (as well as some liberal parishes in mainstream denominations) don't believe in withholding the sacrament of marriage from same-gender unions. Some state anti-same-gender marriage laws prohibit individuals from even purporting to solemnize marriages that don't conform to state statute. Practice your religion, break the law.

And the second one is a pretty much worldwide phenomenon. That's so incredibly weak, it's unbelieveable.
Hey, it's an example of how the genders are not legally equal. I'd challenge the "worldwide phenomenon" comment, however. Try walking around some European beaches or parks on a warm, sunny day.

Don't know what you are talking about. Protest permits were available in both cities where conventions were held. I think the Boston police actually said they didn't make a single arrest of a protestor last year.
Six arrests at the donkies' convention, from what I recall...although some protesters are miffed at how limited access was to the convention.

So many more stories are around from the RNC. For example, the New York Times reported on 12 April that "of the 1,670 cases [resulting from RNC arrests] that have run their full course, 91 percent ended with charges dismissed or with a verdict of not guilty after trial."

Another quote from that story:

Among them was Alexander Dunlop, who said he was arrested while going to pick up sushi.

Last week, he discovered that there were two versions of the same police tape: the one that was to be used as evidence in his trial had been edited at two spots, removing images that showed Mr. Dunlop behaving peacefully. When a volunteer film archivist found a more complete version of the tape and gave it to Mr. Dunlop's lawyer, prosecutors immediately dropped the charges....
WPIX, the WB affiliate in New York, ran a story on the 10 o'clock news on 14 March of another case, that of a 17 year old student who had proper credentials, but was rounded up with a group of ACT-UP protestors and charged with inciting a riot. Her case was thrown out of court, and she's filed a civil suit against the City of New York.

On 3 September, Salon ran an article that included this gem:

Writing on the Christian Science Monitor’s convention blog, journalist Tom Regan seemed shocked by what he’d witnessed at a midtown protest on Tuesday, the day organizers called for direct action and civil disobedience through the city.

“These protesters, while certainly noisy, had obeyed police instructions down the entire length of the street,” he wrote. “Now they were being treated as if they had gotten wildly out of control, but they hadn’t … At some point the police would just start picking people out of the crowd and arresting them. From what I saw, there was often no rhyme or reason behind who they picked to arrest.”
Google has many more references, if you care to look.

On the restrictions on attending Presidential appearances, I offer these items:

The Republican National Committee is requiring voters to sign endorsement forms before they attend campaign rallies featuring Vice President Cheney or President Bush. When Vice President Dick Cheney spoke on July 31st to a crowd of 2,000 in Rio Rancho, NM, voters were required to sign an endorsement form in order to receive a ticket to hear Cheney “Whose vice president is he?” asked a 72-year-old John Wade. “I just wanted to hear what my vice president had to say, and they make me sign a loyalty oath.” The form’s endorsement begins, “I, ___,” requiring individuals to state their name, position, hometown and state, “do hereby endorse George W. Bush for re-election of the United States.” Attendees then date and sign the form. A disclaimer box underneath the signature line states, “In signing the above endorsement you are consenting to use and release of your name by Bush-Cheney as an endorser of President Bush.”
The Millers, a family of three - husband, wife and daughter – were removed from a Bush-Cheney campaign event because the wife, Barbara Miller, brought a pro-choice t-shirt with her. A campaign worker confiscated the t-shirt informing the family that “We don't accept any pro-choice, non-Republican paraphernalia.” The campaign worker returned an hour later with another worker and a security guard and accused the Millers of “smuggling t-shirts.” Barbara Miller, who brought the t-shirt because she was cold and had not considered the implications of its pro-choice logo, reports that a guard grabbed their three tickets from her hand and ripped them up “violently and told her, ‘They’re no good anymore.’” A Bush campaign spokeswoman, Jennifer Millerwise, defended the right of the campaign to ask individuals who intend to “disrupt campaign events” to leave. "These events are put on ... for people of an open mind who are interested in hearing [Bush's] positive message and his vision for a future," she said. Theresa Miller, the daughter, said that was what she was there to do. “I'm not an American? I can't see my president?” she asked.
For a longish account of a bumper-sticker based ejection from a 2005 Bush appearance, see http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/29/113651/512

The I-ATC representatives losing their delegate status by virtue of their having made contributions to the Kerry campaign was reported in the 2 May 2005 issue of Time, and later referenced by other sources:

Time Magazine is reporting that the Bush Administration is removing U.S. delegates from the Inter-American Telephone Commission because they gave money to John Kerry in last year's election. A Bush spokesman admits it's true: 'We wanted people who would represent the Administration positively, and--call us nutty--it seemed like those who wanted to kick this Administration out of town last November would have some difficulty doing that,' says White House spokesman Trent Duffy. Employees of Qualcomm and Nokia are among those who have been removed from the commission.
Moving on....

Prisoners of war, and also not American citizens. They don't have a right to access the American criminal system.

There are three problems with that.

1. Officially they aren't prisoners of war, they're "illegal combatants".
2. Jose Padilla is an American citizen.
3. Note my use of the phrase, "inalienable right".

The philosophy of Natural Law, which was one of the bases upon which the Constitution and Bill of Rights were built, holds that there are certain rights that simply exist, rather than being granted by a governmental authority.

As to whether the right to trial by jury is an inalienable right...I offer the following:

Inalienable rights are rights which are not capable of being surrendered or transferred without the consent of the one possessing such rights; e.g. rights of free speech, property ownership, freedom of religion, personal liberty, etc..
(True, the right to due process isn't necessarily the same as the right to trial by jury, but the issue as regards Gitmo detainees and whether the U.S. is exhibiting signs of fascism is pretty much the same.)

Also...

Little did we imagine that (the British) would so audaciously and cruelly abuse the royal authority as to withhold from you the fruition of the irrevocable rights to which you were... justly entitled... And as you... have artfully been kept from discovering them... we esteem it our duty... to explain to you some of its most important branches.

The first grand right is that of the people having a share in their own government by representatives chosen by themselves.

The next great right is that of trial by jury.[...]

[Pseudolus]

This post is like a candy store, but I'l just pick on this one:
On the restrictions on attending Presidential appearances, I offer these items:It's their rally, they can boot who they want to (boot who they want to, boot who they want to).

If I throw a party, and I find the behavior of some of my guests bothersome to me, I can ask them to leave. They can say whatever damfool thing they want to say, but I don't have to let them do it in my venue.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

I don't think I'm going out on too big of a limb when I say that "Marrying" someone of the same gender goes against the tenants of every major relgion of the world (I'm purposely disregarding any liberal "Christian" denominations since it such a recent innovation).

Freedom of religion, eh?

I'm also sure that Reform Jews appreciate being considered outside the set of "major religions".

[yankeetripper]

This post is like a candy store, but I'l just pick on this one:
It's their rally, they can boot who they want to (boot who they want to, boot who they want to).

If I throw a party, and I find the behavior of some of my guests bothersome to me, I can ask them to leave. They can say whatever damfool thing they want to say, but I don't have to let them do it in my venue.

That would be correct provided it was inside the venue and assuming NO TAXPAYER funds were used to obtain the venue or provide security for it.

So how do you explain the arrests outside NYC republican convestion? Don't US citizens have the right to peacably assemble?

[Pseudolus]

or provide security for it.I think this is a bit of a stretch, considering that taxpayers provide security for the Prez wherever he goes.

So how do you explain the arrests outside NYC republican convestion? Don't US citizens have the right to peacably assemble?I don't know much about those. If they were getting in the way of traffic or otherwise causing problems, I don't have a problem with them being moved out of the way - so long as the moving was content neutral (i.e., the "Bush is Satan" and "Kerry is Satan" sign wavers both get carted away). It's possible that the cops were overzealous in some instances - but, to the point of this thread, it's not like there's any shortage of venues to exlaim any damfool thing one wants to exclaim.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

This post is like a candy store, but I'l just pick on this one:
It's their rally, they can boot who they want to (boot who they want to, boot who they want to).

If I throw a party, and I find the behavior of some of my guests bothersome to me, I can ask them to leave. They can say whatever damfool thing they want to say, but I don't have to let them do it in my venue.
Three points:

That explains/justifies the expulsion from the March 2005 taxpayer-funded appearance, how?

You endorse removing guests from your party because of a bumper-sticker they might have on their car, even if their behavior at the party is perfectly civil?

You're not in, or applying for, the position that was once described as "leader of the free world". If you're in a leadership role, you don't exactly create the image of not being a despot by making anyone who might possibly dissent go away. Hell, even Tony Blair tolerated being roasted on live TV in the UK before their elections....

I'm not one of the nuts that believe that there is a "right" to disrupt public events. I'm not even saying that I think there is a "right" to provide dissenters with prime camera real estate.

However, seeking to isolate the administration from any images of dissent, even those as innocuous as buttons, t-shirt slogans, or bumper stickers out in the parking lot reeks of the party controlling the images relayed by the media. And that's not all that far away from actual control of the media, a common characteristic among totalitarian regimes.

In a free society, leaders tolerate exposure to non-disruptive dissent.

[Elisha]

Freedom of religion, eh?

I'm also sure that Reform Jews appreciate being considered outside the set of "major religions".

Maybe if they wouldn't have "Reformed", then they might be considered a major religion. My point stands despite your attempt to rebut.

[Pseudolus]

1) Sorry, but can you refer me to the specific incident you're referring to? I'm sure it's here, but I'm not seeing it.

2) Is that the correct thing to do? Possibly, possibly not, but exercising my rights to peacefully assemble with and without whomever I choose has nothing to do with fascism. And if, for instance, I were holding a pro-X party, and people came into that party wearing anti-X t-shirts, not only would it be legal for me to ask them to leave, it would be the correct thing to do.

3) At certain places and times, protesters have been cleared out of the way of events. At the margin, might it have been a better choice allow some of these protesters to do their thing? Quite possibly. But to imply that this has anything to do with fascism or despotism - given the huge amount of place and times that they can say whatever, to repeat, any damfool thing they want - is just silly.

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

I don't know much about those. If they were getting in the way of traffic or otherwise causing problems, I don't have a problem with them being moved out of the way - so long as the moving was content neutral (i.e., the "Bush is Satan" and "Kerry is Satan" sign wavers both get carted away). It's possible that the cops were overzealous in some instances - but, to the point of this thread, it's not like there's any shortage of venues to exlaim any damfool thing one wants to exclaim.

Do some googling if you really want to learn more about it. While there were some (many?) arrests appropriately made for disruptive behavior, civil disobedience....there seem to be several media reports and many blog/journal entries from that time that suggest that some of the police activity was random or preemptive, particularly in the first couple of days of the convention.

That the processing of people arrested took forever, and that some were held longer than is legally allowed, also seems well documented, but they could just be symptoms of the police & court system being overwhelmed with the volume and chaos.

I'm not so willing to give as much credence to claims that the Pier 57 "mini Gitmo" holding area was funded by the RNC, or to the reports that people were told that arrestees wouldn't be released until after the President left the city. They're disturbing-sounding, but they also sound more like rumor and hysteric misinterpretation than reality. (At least, I don't want to believe that those claims are true.)

[Maphisto's Sidekick]

Sorry, but can you refer me to the specific incident you're referring to?

The URL I cited was http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/29/113651/512

Since then I found a reference in an arguably more reputable (and definitely more mainstream) source at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10969-2005Mar29.html

At certain places and times, protesters have been cleared out of the way of events. At the margin, might it have been a better choice allow some of these protesters to do their thing? Quite possibly. But to imply that this has anything to do with fascism or despotism - given the huge amount of place and times that they can say whatever, to repeat, any damfool thing they want - is just silly.

If we were talking just about having an administration that preferred peaceful, smooth-running appearances...yes, it would be excessive to cry "fascism!".

However, the administration's apparent strategy of micromanaging its public face in an effort to generally avoid appearing in the same frame as any dissenting imagery...or even the presence of potentially dissenting individuals... combined with many other changes that have taken place under this administration...it's enough to make a few people wonder what sort of place this country is becoming. Maybe we haven't hit fascism, but it sometimes seems like we've drifted a bit down the slope towards some cousin of totalitarianism.