SoA Exam Candidates and the Code of Conduct

[Malik Shabazz]

As discussed in this (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=57738) thread, beginning in 2006 the CAS is going to require exam candidates to agree to abide by the Code of Professional Conduct.

My own opinion is that this is a very important recognition by the CAS that actuarial students are performing responsible actuarial work, and I think the SoA should follow suit.

Do you think that the Society should require exam candidates to agree to abide by the Code of Professional Conduct?

[Brad Gile]

As discussed in this (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=57738) thread, beginning in 2006 the CAS is going to require exam candidates to agree to abide by the Code of Professional Conduct.

My own opinion is that this is a very important recognition by the CAS that actuarial students are performing responsible actuarial work, and I think the SoA should follow suit.

Do you think that the Society should require exam candidates to agree to abide by the Code of Professional Conduct?

I say "Yes!", but of course I'm not a candidate.

Brad<---forgot this is the candidate chat area

[erobbins]

As discussed in this (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=57738) thread, beginning in 2006 the CAS is going to require exam candidates to agree to abide by the Code of Professional Conduct.

My own opinion is that this is a very important recognition by the CAS that actuarial students are performing responsible actuarial work, and I think the SoA should follow suit.

Do you think that the Society should require exam candidates to agree to abide by the Code of Professional Conduct?

It sounds appropriate for the later exams but not for the earlier ones. I don't see the need for this for the students just starting out, as they are generally either still in college or otherwise not doing actuarial work of such a nature that adherence to such specific rules should be a requirement. The Code simply makes more specific to our profession what should already be ethical conduct for a professional, and there should be sufficient constraints on behavior at the early stage (from professors or supervisors) not to warrant adherence to the Code itself.

EROBBINS

[jazzman2]

With no disrespect intended toward Mr. Robbins...I strongly support having everyone read and adhere to the Code of Conduct before taking any actuarial exams. The CFA exams include Professionalism materials on their first exam. I would be interested in what the other candidates say about this. Have we found an issue that differentiates the candidates???

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I'm guessing that there are candidates who didn't think the rules of professionalism are meant for them, since they're not in the SOA yet.
This closes that loophole.
Rules usually have rational reasons behind them. Even the Infield Fly Rule has a reason for existing.

[glenn]

I'm guessing that there are candidates who didn't think the rules of professionalism are meant for them, since they're not in the SOA yet.
This closes that loophole.
Rules usually have rational reasons behind them. Even the Infield Fly Rule has a reason for existing.
Why would I abide by rules of an organization of which I'm not a member?
And if I write an exam, how long after that do I have to abide by the code of conduct? What if I quit writing exams for a couple of years, then write another exam, then a couple of years off?

Nice idea, poor application. Unless students become members, applying the code of conduct to them is senseless.

[Maine-iac]

It's only senseless if a student stops pursuing credentialling by the Society. It is reasonable for a society to require that candidates abide by their rules while following the credentialling path.

The penalty is that if you violate the ethicial standards in a material way during your student years, you will not be accepted into the Society even if you sucessfully complete the other requirements.

The Societies would pretty much do this anyway, if they had some knowledge of a candidate's less than ethical behavior, but requring candidates to pledge to abide by the rules would be more straightforward.

[glenn]

It's still a mess. WHat if I contravene their requirements. Then 5 years later I come back and start writing exams again. Do I get accepted?

I know that's stretching it a bit, but the point is that requiring students to comply should be expected and is a good idea but unfortunately isn't really practical IMO. (and while I suggest that this may be stretching it - in this community I'm not the only overly analytical person who'll tear this to shreds over loopholes like this).

[jazzman2]

I do not think that this will have any impact on cheating or bad behavior. I do think that it is good for students to begin to understand what a profession is all about. This is a topic that we are never too young or too old to learn and live by. Every profession that has a code of conduct will have a code with a similar flavor to ours.

I am still waiting to hear from the candidates. The non-candidates have done a pretty good job of identifying the issues.

[bdschobel]

I don't believe that students taking the preliminary exams, sometimes still in college, can really understand the significance of the Code of Professional Conduct, except in a very abstract sense. New ASAs gain a better understanding at the Associateship Professionalism Course (APC). That makes sense because new ASAs are, in fact, members of the SOA and often have job responsibilities where professionalism is relevant.

The current system seems to work well enough. If it ain't broke....

Bruce

[jazzman2]

Mr Schobel...I really appreciate your sage wisdom on most topics. However, on this topic, I respectfully submit that you are incorrect. In all of our literature that we give to high school and college students, we state that
"Actuaries are the leading professionals in finding ways to manage risk".

We do not say that they are mathematicians or risk managers. We say that actuaries are professionals. One of the criteria of a profession is that it have a code of conduct. So, why not treat our students as young professionals? I am concerned that some actuaries do not really consider themselves to be professionals. As a result, actuaries have few seats at the table when decisions are being made. Let's reinforce to our students that they are entering a profession...not just a series of math exams.

You say that "it ain't broke". Why are we investing millions of dollars in an image campaign to improve the image of the actuarial professional? Don't we need to bring more visibility to the "profession"?

Thank you. Now I would like to hear from the candidates...who have been noticeably silent on this issue.

[CDesRochers]

I believe that the Society is doing a good job with professionalism. With the changes in the ASA under the new system, we will be moving the APC professionalism course earlier. It may not make sense to subject students to a code of conduct before we provide an APC-type course.

As I understand it, the CAS is moving toward elimination of the ACAS, so the SOA may not have the same issue, since we are moving toward an "earlier" ASA. There are also some practical issues, including the ABCD process and how that might work for non-members. From the SOA perspective, we should watch the issue, but I don't expect any immediate change in policy. We do include a statement about the Code of Conduct in the ASA application.

[trumpnik]

Apparently, I am the first candidate to reply... so, here are my thoughts. I do not view this as having any significant impact on candidates. Those who are not in the profession will most likely not understand the implications of signing the Code. They are likely to sign anything that allows them to take the test and enjoy the possibility of this career path. Those who are already in the profession, but not yet an ACAS, are most likely expected to abide by the Code, or something similar, by their employer. All in all, I think it just makes clear that the CAS has the ability not to accept you into the society even if you have passed your exams, which I believe they already had the ability to do.

I also believe this may be why you haven't gotten many responses. We may not really see it as having the same effect you all do.

[Actuary321]

Not sure where to put this but since this thread has Candidates and Code of Conduct I will bump this one.

Just got an email from the SOA about this. (http://www.soa.org/files/pdf/edu-code-cond-candidates.pdf)

So now anyone who has not attained letters is an 'Actuarial Candidate'?

So I guess that answers the question of how to respond. We are no longer 'Actuarial Students'. We are 'Actuarial Candidates'.

[tommie frazier]

some people view "student" as pejorative. that is, they are full time working professionals, not "students". the CAS has officially considered exam takers as such for some time.

[bdschobel]

That's right. In this case, the SOA is catching up to where the CAS has been for quite a while.

Bruce

[Mystical Bunny of Destiny]

Not sure where to put this but since this thread has Candidates and Code of Conduct I will bump this one.

Just got an email from the SOA about this. (http://www.soa.org/files/pdf/edu-code-cond-candidates.pdf)

So now anyone who has not attained letters is an 'Actuarial Candidate'?

So I guess that answers the question of how to respond. We are no longer 'Actuarial Students'. We are 'Actuarial Candidates'.

Why would you need to respond to this?

[Chuck]

some people view "student" as pejorative. that is, they are full time working professionals, not "students". the CAS has officially considered exam takers as such for some time.

Based on recent election antics, I'd say many consider "candidate" to be a pejorative too.

[conanmaths]

The Code of Conduct is a good start. However, we should limit the number of test to 3 and change the questions every time. I can tell you that MCAT, SAT are all have the "code of conduct" but no one follow it until somebody start to sell the question online.

[bdschobel]

"Limit the number of tests to 3"? What does that mean?

Bruce

[Requiem]

"Limit the number of tests to 3"? What does that mean?

Bruce
3 per year?

[campbell]

Or maybe he meant three exams in total, like the CFA.

Hmmmm.... not likely.

[ebony]

Or maybe he meant three exams in total, like the CFA.

Hmmmm.... not likely.

I'd hate to sit for one of the "BIG 3". I don't even want to think about what those tests would look like...

[tommie frazier]

what would a big 3 look like?

Financial Mathematics, Stats, and INsurance Topics. each would be what, 2 days?

[campbell]

Could do it like the MDs do.... I remember my sister had something like 2-3 days of boards or something.

A little more grueling than the bar.

[Brad Gile]

Could do it like the MDs do.... I remember my sister had something like 2-3 days of boards or something.

A little more grueling than the bar.

The Florida Bar Examination is 12 hours long over a period of two successive days:

The Florida Bar Examination consists of two parts. Part A, the Florida portion, is administered on Tuesday, and is composed of three essay questions during the morning session and 100 multiple-choice questions during the afternoon session.
Part B, the Multistate Bar Examination, is administered on Wednesday, and is composed of 100 multiple-choice questions during the morning session and 100 multiple-choice questions during the afternoon session. Both days are administered on this testing schedule.

[campbell]

Consider me corrected. I don't know the exact details of my sister's exams. I just remember her drinking lots and lots of coffee and studying for very long hours.

[sanki]

Or maybe he meant three exams in total, like the CFA.

Hmmmm.... not likely.

How about job qualification requirement? CFA did that

If someone pass all FSA exams without any working experience,
can he become a FSA?

I saw someone in Chinese actuarial forum complain he can't find any actuarial job but he still can get his FSA credential, and he plan to sell the title when he back to China

[campbell]

How about job qualification requirement? CFA did that

If someone pass all FSA exams without any working experience,
can he become a FSA?

I saw someone in Chinese actuarial forum complain he can't find any actuarial job but he still can get his FSA credential, and he plan to sell the title when he back to China

I think employers know how to read resumes. There's not much point to require job experience for the credentials (you don't need work experience to get most educational attainments, after all). If employers care about work experience, they will take the few extra minutes to read your CV.

There are several threads in the AO around about attaining credentials without work experience, and there is a recognition that ASAs and FSAs without work experience will not be paid the same as people who do have work experience.

Also, I hope I'm misreading that last paragraph, because said poster is going to have a hard time selling his FSA to another person. I mean, is he selling his name to go with? Is said buyer supposed to say "Oh yes, it may say Mary Smith on the exam transcript, but I changed my name to John Jones afterward. Yes, it's really my credential." Not sure how that's supposed to work, even if one thinks the SOA will never notice shenanigans and do something about it. Even if people share the same names, I think the SOA has a way of distinguishing those candidates.

[Ginormous76]

I'd hate to sit for one of the "BIG 3". I don't even want to think about what those tests would look like...

The very thought makes me want to go cry in the corner... or hide under my desk.

[JMO]

Maybe I am missing something, but I somehow thought the "only three" meant that no-one should be allowed more than three tries to pass any given exam. :duh:

[campbell]

To be sure, when I was in grad school, there was a policy like that - if you flunked the oral quals three times, you were definitely out - you might be able to complete a PhD, but not at that university. Also, you would get booted if you were there for 7 years and hadn't gotten the PhD.

However, the point there was to free up resources for other people who would actually be able to get a degree, and also hard reality for the grad student that they might not be cut out for a PhD. It was a kindness, because before that, some people would linger for years without progress.

Now we might be kind to candidates by giving them the boot after 3 attempts, but the circumstances of people taking actuarial exams is rather different from a grad student who is devoting full-time to studying, research, and teaching.

If the concern is that people will memorize the problems (and also determine the answers to said problems), then we can make the question banks longer. A relatively small question bank for an exam is a short-term problem, and it will not take that long for the banks to get bigger.

[Enough Exams Already]

To be sure, when I was in grad school, there was a policy like that - if you flunked the oral quals three times, you were definitely out - you might be able to complete a PhD, but not at that university. Also, you would get booted if you were there for 7 years and hadn't gotten the PhD.

However, the point there was to free up resources for other people who would actually be able to get a degree, and also hard reality for the grad student that they might not be cut out for a PhD. It was a kindness, because before that, some people would linger for years without progress.

Now we might be kind to candidates by giving them the boot after 3 attempts, but the circumstances of people taking actuarial exams is rather different from a grad student who is devoting full-time to studying, research, and teaching.

If the concern is that people will memorize the problems (and also determine the answers to said problems), then we can make the question banks longer. A relatively small question bank for an exam is a short-term problem, and it will not take that long for the banks to get bigger.

The IOA has a policy like that for their preliminary exams, I believe. IIRC, they allow a student four tries to pass a given exam. I don't know whether all the exams are subject to that try limit, or whether it stops after a certain point, but I know they have it for the early exams.

[sanki]

Also, I hope I'm misreading that last paragraph, because said poster is going to have a hard time selling his FSA to another person. I mean, is he selling his name to go with? Is said buyer supposed to say "Oh yes, it may say Mary Smith on the exam transcript, but I changed my name to John Jones afterward. Yes, it's really my credential." Not sure how that's supposed to work, even if one thinks the SOA will never notice shenanigans and do something about it. Even if people share the same names, I think the SOA has a way of distinguishing those candidates.

yes, you are right, hope SOA can find those shenanigans if it happens

[1695814]

it will not take that long for the banks to get bigger.oh sure...another bailout package :shake: