Do we still need the right to bear arms?

[Griffin 8]

http://www.asij.ac.jp/japan/japan_links/arms.htmYeah, like I'm going to click a link

They refute the argument that it is inherently impossible for a country to be almost completely devoid of guns. It isn't inherently impossible, it just may be impossible in the specific case of the USA (at least within our lifetime) because so many Americans love guns and so many millions of guns are already in circulation.Super! When someone makes that argument, you'll be set!

[Griffin 8]

"Certainly not as accurate as single-shot crossbows" (according to the article) and with a range of just 50-75 yards. Much much less killing efficiency than guns.I don't know what kind of house you live in, but I don't have any rooms that measure 50 yards across in mine.

[Griffin 8]

My questions are for exploring the underlying reasons why people want guns (as opposed to why they say they want them). For example, some say guns should be legal because criminals would get them anyway and law-abiding citizens wouldn't. But when probed further they'll still say they'd prefer to have guns legal than live in a society where neither honest citizens nor criminals have guns. So the real reason is something other than the claimed reason of wanting to defend themselves against gun-toting criminals.

Others will say they want guns so they can rebel against the government if it gets too oppressive. But then upon asking if they'd be OK with all handguns being taken away and long semi-automatic rifles given to former handgun owners in exchange, they don't want that even though the long rifles would be more effective in rebelling against the government.Or maybe they don't believe we would ever get to the situation where criminals have no guns (and they reject your claim that gunless criminals could not have the upper hand), and they don't believe that rifles would be the most effective in rebelling against the government.

[Happy Professional]

I don't know what kind of house you live in, but I don't have any rooms that measure 50 yards across in mine.

just wait til you pass all your exams.

[Sew Lining]

My questions are for exploring the underlying reasons why people want guns (as opposed to why they say they want them). For example, some say guns should be legal because criminals would get them anyway and law-abiding citizens wouldn't. But when probed further they'll still say they'd prefer to have guns legal than live in a society where neither honest citizens nor criminals have guns. So the real reason is something other than the claimed reason of wanting to defend themselves against gun-toting criminals.

Others will say they want guns so they can rebel against the government if it gets too oppressive. But then upon asking if they'd be OK with all handguns being taken away and long semi-automatic rifles given to former handgun owners in exchange, they don't want that even though the long rifles would be more effective in rebelling against the government.

I like my guns b/c
1. Fun to shoot targets.
2. Feeling of power holding that big ol' widow-maker and squeezing off a couple of rounds
3. Home protection (late night break-in)
4. Civilization descends into chaos - we're on our own.

Now, let's assume we can create a country where it's impossible for the bad eggs to get a gun. I still want my gun. Those bad guys can still get knives, form gangs, vote for democrats and all kinds of other bad stuff!

[Happy Professional]

I like my guns b/c

2. Feeling of power holding that big ol' widow-maker and squeezing off a couple of rounds

http://lowgradepanic.bloghorn.com/img/boomstick.gif

THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!

[Incredible Hulctuary]

I don't know what kind of house you live in, but I don't have any rooms that measure 50 yards across in mine.I don't know what kind of city or county you live in, but I live in one where people have been hit by stray bullets and drive-by shootings from more than 50 yards away.

[SamTheEagle]

Others will say they want guns so they can rebel against the government if it gets too oppressive. But then upon asking if they'd be OK with all handguns being taken away and long semi-automatic rifles given to former handgun owners in exchange, they don't want that even though the long rifles would be more effective in rebelling against the government.

I'd prefer people be able to buy tanks if they wish.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

2. Feeling of power holding that big ol' widow-maker and squeezing off a couple of roundsThat's what it all boils down to for most gun lovers in America. Even in a society devoid of criminals you'd still want your guns. At least you're honest enough to admit the real reason.

[Griffin 8]

I don't know what kind of city or county you live in, but I live in one where people have been hit by stray bullets and drive-by shootings from more than 50 yards away.And I don't know who's been using your ID, but earlier in this thread someone posing as you made the claim that crossbows would be an inadequate weapon for a criminal entering someone's house because it fires only one shot.

[Griffin 8]

That's what it all boils down to for most gun lovers in America. Even in a society devoid of criminals you'd still want your guns. At least you're honest enough to admit the real reason.And what would you know about honesty in this debate?

[BetterThanRejuvination]

If you want this thread to become mildly entertaining, pretend that Gareth Keenan is the one posting EB's and SL's replies.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

And I don't know who's been using your ID, but earlier in this thread someone posing as you made the claim that crossbows would be an inadequate weapon for a criminal entering someone's house because it fires only one shot.Crossbows that have the accuracy, affordability, and availability of common guns do only fire one shot before having to reload. And I didn't say inadequate, I said expensive.

[Griffin 8]

Crossbows that have the accuracy, affordability, and availability of common guns do only fire one shot before having to reload. And I didn't say inadequate, I said expensive.No, you saidThey're already expensive in other ways. Big and clunky to carry around, very difficult to hide under clothes, only one shot before reloading, and require more skill than a gun to use it accurately and effectively.Since you like to pretend that you know something about how markets work, if all guns were taken away but the demand remained, how long would it take before crossbows that fire multiple shots would have the accuracy, affordability, and availability of common guns today?

[Sew Lining]

Originally Posted by Sew Lining
2. Feeling of power holding that big ol' widow-maker and squeezing off a couple of rounds
That's what it all boils down to for most gun lovers in America. Even in a society devoid of criminals you'd still want your guns. At least you're honest enough to admit the real reason.

You say that like it means something.
I can't talk for most gun lovers, but I'd be willing to bet they share that reason.
Now you need to be honest with me and the group. I listed 4 honest-to-goodness-may-the-good-Lord-strike-me-down-if-it's-not-true reasons. Don't pick out your favorite and jump out of the bushes like you just caught Goober sneakin' a bite of Aunt Bea's pie while it's sitting on the window ledge to cool.

Here's the order of importance of my 4 reasons
1st = home protection
2nd = protection for worst case scenario
3rd = fun
4th = power

If I had to pick "the real reason" it'd be home protection.

Now, of the handful of my friends who own firearms, I'd say power moves up on the list - honestly don't know if it gets to 1 - it might. I believe that for most of them - say 80% - the big reason is home protection.

Now, let's assume it's all about power like you seem to think. The really important question is "So what?" Doesn't prove anything other than we have a harmless outlet for our thirst for power. Might very well be a case of swinging a big ol' pee-pee around. It's harmless, though. Completely harmless.

[fallout]

No, you saidSince you like to pretend that you know something about how markets work, if all guns were taken away but the demand remained, how long would it take before crossbows that fire multiple shots would have the accuracy, affordability, and availability of common guns today?


Probably about a week or so before congress classified them as guns and took them away too.

[E. Blackadder]

how about a classic science fiction invention, the ice gun. In an hour, there's no evidence. ;-)

[Sew Lining]

how about a classic science fiction invention, the ice gun. In an hour, there's no evidence. ;-)
Mythbusters took on the ice bullet - they couldn't get it to work with frozen water.

Maybe they should have tried something that's a little sturdier when it freezes ... how 'bout lead?

[IAm@Work.com]

Morning Edition, October 24, 2005 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4970993) • Brazilians rejected a proposal to ban the sale of guns in a national referendum Sunday. More than 36,000 people were killed last year in gun-related incidents in Brazil, four times the number in the United States.Sure am glad that the only reason that we have a high gun violence rate in this country is the 2d ammendment. Other countries certainly don't have high rates of gun violence, like we do.

[Uncle Larry]

Sure am glad that the only reason that we have a high gun violence rate in this country is the 2d ammendment. Other countries certainly don't have high rates of gun violence, like we do.I look pretty good if you put me in a lineup with hobo's. Hey if you're comfortable coming in ahead of 3rd world and developing countries, that's great for you. Some people just aim a bit higher I guess.

[Griffin 8]

I look pretty good if you put me in a lineup with hobo's. Hey if you're comfortable coming in ahead of 3rd world and developing countries, that's great for you. Some people just aim a bit higher I guess.Did you know Canada's never had a girlfriend?

[Uncle Larry]

Did you know Canada's never had a girlfriend?We just have high standards. Uzbekistan asked us to the dance but we told it to hit the gym and try again next year. Turkey wanted to go to a movie but we told it the pimple cream is in aisle 4.

[Harry]

Sure am glad that the only reason that we have a high gun violence rate in this country is the 2d ammendment. Other countries certainly don't have high rates of gun violence, like we do.
What's your point? Brazil probably has as many or more guns per capita than we do. Throw in their high poverty rates and you have a recipe for disaster.

[fallout]

Did you know Canada's never had a girlfriend?


Good thing that the USA is a ....ummm better not.

[IAm@Work.com]

What's your point? Brazil probably has as many or more guns per capita than we do. Throw in their high poverty rates and you have a recipe for disaster.My point is that somewhere in every gun debate someone will bring up the "fact" that the US has such a higher rate of gun violence than everywhere else in the world. Uncle Larry obviously disagrees, but I never thought of Brazil as a particularly third world place. Yet, they apparently have more gun deaths with a comparable population, putting the lie to the claim that it is only our 2d amendment that causes the problem.

[Uncle Larry]

My point is that somewhere in every gun debate someone will bring up the "fact" that the US has such a higher rate of gun violence than everywhere else in the world. Uncle Larry obviously disagrees, but I never thought of Brazil as a particularly third world place. Yet, they apparently have more gun deaths with a comparable population, putting the lie to the claim that it is only our 2d amendment that causes the problem.You've obviously never been to Brazil.

The point is that gun violence is related to poverty. If you adjust for a nation's GDP per capita the US has a very high gun crime rate. Of course there is more crime and violence in poorer countries. Brazil is not a 3rd world country but it is quite poor.