Trying to tell the truth to the Pakistanis [Archive]

Aaron Brachowitz

11-01-2001, 11:38 AM

It seems like we are stuck in "react" mode. Defense spokesman for some reason feel the need to respond to every Taliban charge of collateral damage, which gives them more legitimacy than they deserve. The response to every question should be:

We did not start this war.
We are not intentionally targeting civilians (unlike our enemies).
We have taken every reasonable step to avoid collateral damage.
Consider the source of these charges and the lack of independent confirmation due to the absence of a free press.

Patience

11-01-2001, 11:57 AM

The article didn't seem to cover it, but it is more than collateral damage reports.

For example I saw headlines claiming the US uses chemical weapons. add to that the fact that many people in these countries don't believe Bin Laden did it, it is a public relations nightmare.

It for want to say who cares, lets do the job, that's fine. But it is felt that we need to keep any allies we have firmly on our side to defeat this over the long haul.

Guerilla poster

11-01-2001, 12:00 PM

Obviously, the pr game will not be easy. Many still think that the israeli's were the ones who did the WTC attack. if they are willing to believe something that seems so farfetched. Why would they not believe that America is using chemical weapons?

Aaron Brachowitz

11-01-2001, 12:13 PM

On 2001-11-01 12:00, Guerilla Poster wrote:
Obviously, the pr game will not be easy. Many still think that the israeli's were the ones who did the WTC attack. if they are willing to believe something that seems so farfetched. Why would they not believe that America is using chemical weapons?

Which brings up the absurdity of trying to wage a PR campaign in societies without a free and fair press. Why do they believe the Israelis are behind this? Because they read it in the paper and saw it on the news.

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 12:31 PM

On 2001-11-01 11:38, Aaron Brachowitz wrote:
We did not start this war.

A reasonable person would say we played a role in starting the war, by planting Israel in the Muslims' most important land and supporting their apartheid state.

It's not hard to see the Muslims' dislike of Israel, just look at who they're blaming for the WTC.

Regarding these PR campaigns, they should be immediately disbanded. They make the US look stupid.

Go to http://www.arabnews.com if you want a sense of how Arabs view things. Just read the last two weeks of political cartoons. (note this is a moderate newspaper in English)

For the lazy ...

<img src ="http://www.arabnews.com/system/html/cartoon/291001.jpg">

<img src ="http://www.arabnews.com/system/html/cartoon/241001.jpg">

[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-11-01 14:09 ]

Griffin 1

11-01-2001, 01:41 PM

On 2001-11-01 12:31, Voice of Reason wrote:
[quote]
A reasonable person would say we did start the war, by planting Israel in the Muslims' most important land and supporting their apartheid state.

Do you really believe the stuff you write?

Patience

11-01-2001, 01:48 PM

saw an interview with Arafat the other day. Even he doesn't believe it.

He basically said that Bin Laden doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians and his only using this as additional propaganda and an excuse for his own agenda

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 01:53 PM

On 2001-11-01 13:41, Griffin wrote:

On 2001-11-01 12:31, Voice of Reason wrote:
[quote]
A reasonable person would say we did start the war, by planting Israel in the Muslims' most important land and supporting their apartheid state.

Do you really believe the stuff you write?

Did you see that last political cartoon?

Which is more absurd? My post or thinking a few transparently self serving meetings will change the hearts and minds of these people.

[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-11-01 13:53 ]

Patience

11-01-2001, 01:57 PM

You did not say Arabs believe this (which few would argue). You said reasonable people, which is why you are thought absurd.

The cartoons confirm what the Arabs believe, but that is irrelevant to your comments.

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 02:02 PM

Griffin 1

11-01-2001, 02:06 PM

Reasonable people may view the opinions of both sides, but your comment was that reasonable people would say we started the war.

Again, I ask, do you really believe the stuff you write?

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 02:08 PM

On 2001-11-01 14:06, Griffin wrote:
Reasonable people may view the opinions of both sides, but your comment was that reasonable people would say we started the war.

Again, I ask, do you really believe the stuff you write?

I see, I changed my post to "played a role in starting this war."

You're not saying the US in no way made enemies in that area are you? That would be a pretty uneducated comment.

Besides, when figuring out the reason for an attack, whose opinion other than the attackers should a reasonable person weigh?

I hope somehow you have an epiphany and discover how moronic your comments are. Griffin you're a total idiot if you wish to ignore the opinions of the people who attacked.

[ This Message was edited by: Voice of Reason on 2001-11-01 14:21 ]

Patience

11-01-2001, 02:20 PM

I am friends with John. For whatever reason we hang out and support each other.

Tony hates John. Whether it be right or wrong Tony can't stand John. Some people says its John's fault, he did things. That may be true, but I don't see it that way and it doesn't change our relationship.

Tony's friend Bill kills my family. He has always been jealous of my affluence and my great family life. Tony & Bill are cousin's, but actually can't stand each other.

Now you want me to believe that I am partly responsible for my family being wiped out.

& I shouldn't be friends with John anymore, even though I know I may be all that keeps Tony from killing him.

Plus when I send the police to Bill's house he hides behind his sister as he shoots at the police and blames them when she gets hurt.

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 02:33 PM

Your story writen to be easy to read, and writen to be accurate.

I'm friends with Moses.

Mohamed hates Moses.

Wrong: Whether it be right or wrong Mohamed can't stand Moses. Some people says its Moses' fault, he did things. That may be true, but

Right: Mohamed hates Moses and me because I helped Moses forcibly take over Mohamed's house. In the process we killed a few of his children and forced the rest to live as bums. Mohamed has been trying to get half of his house back, so he could share with Moses. Moses doesn't want that and I've been helping Moses kill Mohamed's family whenever they try to move back in.

I don't see it that way and it doesn't change our relationship.

<comment>: OK (sarcastic)

Wrong: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. He has always been jealous of my affluence and my great family life. Mohamed & Osama are cousin's, but actually can't stand each other.

Right: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. Osama is crazy and hates me. He's been telling Mohamed that his troubles are partly my fault because I help Moses. Osama also hates me because I keep armed guards in his back yard, to keep his family under control.

Now you want me to believe that I am partly responsible for my family being wiped out & I shouldn't be friends with Moses anymore, even though I know I may be all that keeps Mohamed from killing him.

Wrong: Plus when I send the police to Osama's house he hides behind his sister as he shoots at the police and blames them when she gets hurt.

Right: I send F16s to bomb Osama's block, and his neighbor who had nothing to do with this gets killed.

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 02:34 PM

Your story writen to be easy to read, and writen to be accurate.

I'm friends with Moses.

Mohamed hates Moses.

Wrong: Whether it be right or wrong Mohamed can't stand Moses. Some people says its Moses' fault, he did things. That may be true, but

Right: Mohamed hates Moses and me because I helped Moses forcibly take over Mohamed's house. In the process we killed a few of his children and forced the rest to live as bums. Mohamed has been trying to get half of his house back, so he could share with Moses. Moses doesn't want that and I've been helping Moses kill Mohamed's family whenever they try to move back in.

I don't see it that way and it doesn't change our relationship.

*comment*: OK (sarcastic)

Wrong: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. He has always been jealous of my affluence and my great family life. Mohamed & Osama are cousin's, but actually can't stand each other.

Right: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. Osama is crazy and hates me. He's been telling Mohamed that his troubles are partly my fault because I help Moses. Osama also hates me because I keep armed guards in his back yard, to keep his family under control.

Now you want me to believe that I am partly responsible for my family being wiped out & I shouldn't be friends with Moses anymore, even though I know I may be all that keeps Mohamed from killing him.

Wrong: Plus when I send the police to Osama's house he hides behind his sister as he shoots at the police and blames them when she gets hurt.

Right: I send F16s to bomb Osama's block, and his neighbor who had nothing to do with this gets killed.

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 02:34 PM

Your story writen to be easy to read, and writen to be accurate.

I'm friends with Moses.

Mohamed hates Moses.

Wrong: Whether it be right or wrong Mohamed can't stand Moses. Some people says its Moses' fault, he did things. That may be true, but

Right: Mohamed hates Moses and me because I helped Moses forcibly take over Mohamed's house. In the process we killed a few of his children and forced the rest to live as bums. Mohamed has been trying to get half of his house back, so he could share with Moses. Moses doesn't want that and I've been helping Moses kill Mohamed's family whenever they try to move back in.

I don't see it that way and it doesn't change our relationship.

*comment*: OK (sarcastic)

Wrong: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. He has always been jealous of my affluence and my great family life. Mohamed & Osama are cousin's, but actually can't stand each other.

Right: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. Osama is crazy and hates me. He's been telling Mohamed that his troubles are partly my fault because I help Moses. Osama also hates me because I keep armed guards in his back yard, to keep his family under control.

Now you want me to believe that I am partly responsible for my family being wiped out & I shouldn't be friends with Moses anymore, even though I know I may be all that keeps Mohamed from killing him.

Wrong: Plus when I send the police to Osama's house he hides behind his sister as he shoots at the police and blames them when she gets hurt.

Right: I send F16s to bomb Osama's block, and his neighbor who had nothing to do with this gets killed.

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 02:35 PM

Your story writen to be easy to read, and writen to be accurate.

I'm friends with Moses.

Mohamed hates Moses.

Wrong: Whether it be right or wrong Mohamed can't stand Moses. Some people says its Moses' fault, he did things. That may be true, but

Right: Mohamed hates Moses and me because I helped Moses forcibly take over Mohamed's house. In the process we killed a few of his children and forced the rest to live as bums. Mohamed has been trying to get half of his house back, so he could share with Moses. Moses doesn't want that and I've been helping Moses kill Mohamed's family whenever they try to move back in.

I don't see it that way and it doesn't change our relationship.

*comment*: OK (sarcastic)

Wrong: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. He has always been jealous of my affluence and my great family life. Mohamed & Osama are cousin's, but actually can't stand each other.

Right: Mohamed's friend Osama kills my family. Osama is crazy and hates me. He's been telling Mohamed that his troubles are partly my fault because I help Moses. Osama also hates me because I keep armed guards in his back yard, to keep his family under control.

Now you want me to believe that I am partly responsible for my family being wiped out & I shouldn't be friends with Moses anymore, even though I know I may be all that keeps Mohamed from killing him.

Wrong: Plus when I send the police to Osama's house he hides behind his sister as he shoots at the police and blames them when she gets hurt.

Right: I send F16s to bomb Osama's block, and his neighbor who had nothing to do with this gets killed.

Anonymous

11-01-2001, 02:36 PM

Well the board broke ... which I'll take as a sign to end this discussion.

Patience

11-01-2001, 02:42 PM

But it is Ismael, who actually doesn't like Mohammad who attacked us.

and that house was Moses' first. He tried living other places and was told to leave. A group of us in the neighborhood worked to give Moses his house back. Mohammed was given a house also, but his cousin Jordon kept that.

I also didn't kill anyone who didn;t attack me. We let Mohammed live in the house which was more than he ever did for Moses.

and it is Ismael who we are at war with, because he killed my family, jealous over my affluence. He doesn't even like Mohammed even if they are related.

Griffin 1

11-01-2001, 02:46 PM

VoR, uneducated, moronic, and idiotic are all words I too would use to describe most of what you write, if I felt compelled to call people names.

I would say that your revised statement, that we played a role in starting this war, is trivially true. Every participating country in any war plays a role in starting the war. Big deal.

BTW, the rest of your statement was absurd, too, not just the reasonable person part.

Besides, when figuring out the reason for an attack, whose opinion other than the attackers should a reasonable person weigh?

If we give only the attacker's opinon weight, then the attacker is always right. Oh, unless the attacker is Israel, and the attackees are Arabs. Then the attacker is always wrong. Right?

mikey

11-01-2001, 04:19 PM

Sure Mohamed just wants to share the house in love and harmony. He was no part of the efforts his brothers and cousins made to exterminate Moses time after time after time.

Let's not forget Moses use to live there once before too.

Weatherman

11-01-2001, 07:30 PM

</comment>

Weatherman

11-01-2001, 07:31 PM

</comment>
I just closed the comments off to kind of fix these threads.

[ This Message was edited by: Weatherman on 2001-11-01 19:31 ]

The Mister

11-02-2001, 08:42 AM

Thanks, Weatherman. Also, so you know, you can do VIEW => SOURCE and read what the hidden messages say.

Moderator2

11-02-2001, 08:54 AM

On 2001-11-01 14:08, Voice of Reason wrote:
I hope somehow you have an epiphany and discover how moronic your comments are. Griffin you're a total idiot if you wish to ignore the opinions of the people who attacked.

And VoR wants to know why he was banned from this forum. Give me a break!

Hierophant

11-02-2001, 12:37 PM

Well, I am confused. While I don't care for VoR's opinion or reasoning, I don't understand why he was banned. I don't think "idiot" generally rises to the level where people are being banned around here - it just isn't that polite here.

Reviewing other VoR postings doesn't seem to show a pattern of consistent verbal abuse, either.

I suspect that his post which "broke" the thread was accidental rather than intentional - and from what I gathered, it wasn't inside html brackets. (even though it was almost certainly an html issue.)

Hierophant

11-02-2001, 12:40 PM

On 2001-11-01 13:57, Patience wrote:
You did not say Arabs believe this (which few would argue). You said reasonable people, which is why you are thought absurd.

The cartoons confirm what the Arabs believe, but that is irrelevant to your comments.

As a side note, one might argue that Patience has gone over the line with this post. I think the logical extension of this post is:

Anyone who says "Arabs are reasonable people" are or should be thought absurd.

Dr T Non-Fan

11-02-2001, 01:38 PM

I believe reasonable people could believe that we started this war. All it takes is a little misinformation.

To anyone in Afghanistan concerned about getting killed, here should be our response: "Give us bin Laden, and the attacks will stop." This should be our only response. No defensive statements saying the opposite of what the misinformation states ("It's a holy war against Islam!"). Just plain and simple.

Once we get him, we take him to WTC, and let some angry folks have their way.

Guerilla poster

11-02-2001, 03:21 PM

DTNF, I agree with you 100%. Our only response to any Afghans or Arab complaints - should be

We did not start this war. Your leaders harbored Bin Laden who we know (and you know as well) was responsible for the atrocities of Sept. 11 (and is planning additional actions against our countries). You can end this war very simply - hand over Bin Laden and the rest of the terrorist network. Anything short of that and we will do whatever is in our power to destroy Afghanistan. If you do not control Bin Laden, then please provide your assistance to track him down, if not, the bombs will continue to fall.

[ This Message was edited by: Guerilla Poster on 2001-11-02 15:22 ]

Hierophant

11-02-2001, 03:58 PM

On 2001-11-02 14:09, phpBB wrote:

VOR posted a skeleton with its middle finger extended.

Oh. I guess I only see what survives the censors.

What about Lao and his "dumbass" comments? I still don't understand the standards of civility around here. (And others - I don't mean to single out just Lao.)