View Full Version : To parents: How to abuse your own kid?
11-02-2001, 11:21 AM
Now that I do not have to think of exams
for a while I need help from parents.
Are there any games/patterns that I could use to make our first (soon to be born) kid gifted? Any good books on this subject? Basically, I want my kids to be good at math. I know how to manipulate them once they are about 2yrs old. I want to know how to do it as soon as (s)he is born or even before that.
There was a mention in Cheers (Frasier's kid)
a while ago about using some geometrical shapes in black and white in the crib.
PS: My title is just to have some shock value
PPS: If you are not a parent and have no experience with kids but have a witty thing to say, use another thread please.
11-02-2001, 11:31 AM
I don't think you can "make" your kid gifted. If you and your spouse are a couple of nimrods, then all the black-and-white toys and cuisernairre rods in the world ain't gonna help.
11-02-2001, 11:47 AM
And the evidence suggests...
11-02-2001, 12:06 PM
I recommend that you ask your baby's pediatrician for advice. Also, I think "Parent's" and some of the other magazines rate toys about this time every year - just in time for Christmas shopping!
11-02-2001, 12:32 PM
Yeah, ask your baby's pediatrician "How can I make my child gifted?". That'll get a nice note added to your chart.
Here's a thought. Instead of saving for college, why don't you go ahead and start a therapy IRA for the little tyke.
Dr T Non-Fan
11-02-2001, 01:14 PM
I'm a parent, AND I'll attempt to be witty. No request against that.
1. You can't make a child gifted. That's just a small matter of definition. But proceed if you think you can change nature. Also, you won't know what your child's gift is for quite some time. Try not to project your own wishes. "The Cardinals are going to need some left-handed pitching in 20 years!" "He'll be a champion swimmer when he grows up!" Crap like that.
2. Hope for a low-traumatic birth. Don't want no left-handers dying early on you and your retirement plans. (Unless you're a Cardinal fan.)
3. The first week/month/year is for bonding purposes. No matter how much baby screams, cries, wimpers, poops, pees, gets sick, etc., you or your spouse or a significant family member (someone you can't fire) must be there for baby. It will be easier to detect the gift if you're watching.
4. Don't get divorced. Nothing to do with giftedness, but it sure can mess a child up. Wait until the kids die.
5. Hold your baby as much as possible. Don't just leave him/her in a stroller watching from afar (defined as more than one foot). Or carry them in a carrier that also doubles as the car seat.
6. Pay attention to your child. Nothing is more important except safety.
7. Don't try to quiet baby in public areas. It's the public, and people should realize the risk of going out in public near babies. Quieting baby using bribing techniques gives the child the gift of manipulation. Crying babies aren't like barking dogs, whose leashes can be yanked. Crying babies waste all their energy, and fall asleep faster.
8. Breast feed until the teeth come in. After which they're back in daddy's hands. Mmmm.
9. No TV. There may be no hope for you, but your child must be protected. There's nothing on TV that can help any kid up to age three. If you don't believe me, watch some kids watching TV. Zombies, I tells ya.
10. Play classical music. Not Pearl Jam, no matter how much you like them. Not loudly either. Just the popular Mozart stuff, like "Eine Kleine" or #40 (cell phones come with that), or the Horn Concerto.
11. Buy a piano. Cheap and used for starters. Learn to play it yourself, should the child not be interested. Piano's are linear, which makes for a good start.
12. Don't let your child use a calculator.
13. Don't let your child use a computer, unless he plans to fix it himself. Start him off on DOS, have him create his own programs. (Is this even possible anymore? I guess Linux provides some opportunity.)
14. Analog clocks, not digital.
15. Don't bundle up baby unless you're bundling yourself up. (Recall that Danish family accused of child abuse abandonment in NYC on a cold day.) Baby needs to dissipate heat caused by thinking and learning, and won't catch colds as often as grandparents think. As soon as baby is walking, you can dress him same as you would dress. (Where I live, I've seen babies wrapped in blankets in 100 degree weather. Just frying the brain, IMO.)
I could go on and on. And I often do.
11-02-2001, 02:15 PM
On 2001-11-02 13:14, Dr T Non-Fan wrote:
15. Don't bundle up baby unless you're bundling yourself up. (Recall that Danish family accused of child abuse abandonment in NYC on a cold day.)<font size=2>No I don't... I'm curious.
11-02-2001, 02:41 PM
Re #10 in DTNF post, there's no reason to wait. Arrange to have mama's tummy reasonably close to the loudspeaker. If she's good at the piano, have her play it for the baby. (A friend of mine did that. Papa's a killer computer programmer, mama's a professional musician. Baby is clearly gifted, and parents thing the prenatal music definitely helped.)
Dr T Non-Fan
11-02-2001, 03:21 PM
"Gifted" comes from nature. The degree of eventual giftedness comes mostly from nurture.
I've heard that it's very hard to hear in there.
Your sample of one has an unusually high variance. Shadow, you should know better. (Not that my ideas have any merit, nor anectdotal evidence.)
11-02-2001, 03:23 PM
When my first was born, (3 years ago), I listened to classical music while pregnant - (even if it did nothing for her, it was relaxing for me!).
Then - for the first year - everything I read said, "Talk to them - Read to them"
So I did - I talked constantly to her all day - which is a tough habit to get into - just describing things around her, what we were doing, etc. (counting EVERYTHING)
Most experts are referring to little hard-page picture books for babies - I didn't know that. So I began reading full-length Dr. Suess books to her from birth - the rhythm of the words is supposed to have an effect.
Her favorite book was the Dr. Suess ABC Book. At about 6 months, she could identify all of her story books by name - if I named one, she would crawl to get it. She said, "Mama" at 5 months.
By 15 months, she had the vocabulary of a 19-22 month old (15-20 words). By 17-18 months, she could say the alphabet, (and identify letters out of order) and count to 20. She also talked in 2-3 word sentences.
I worked with her a lot, and I think it has helped her academically. Her younger sister is more in the normal ranges for her age - I blame my lack of working with her as much.
My kids do watch too much tv - but it has not hindered their development, IMO - there ARE good programs for kids on PBS and such. My 3-year-old also has a computer - there are some good games for kids out there. She does quite well at those aimed at 4-6 year olds. She is on par academically with where I was when I started kindergarten.
I don't think you can MAKE a child gifted - but you can begin developing skills from birth. That said, the most important thing for a baby to learn is that s/he is loved.
Dr T Non-Fan
11-02-2001, 04:04 PM
While I can usually barf up a lunch while reading someone's bragging, Dr T is right on a few points. Mainly the ones I said already.
Mostly, stop thinking there is some kind of competition to create the superbaby. Baby will already have a head start against 97% of all children born in the world. I mean, you're not on crack. You're not living fist to mouth daily, being bombed or oppressed. You're smart enough to pass actuarial exams (but dumb enough to TAKE them!). Etc. Babies are the most wonderful things you'll experience. Don't waste it worrying.
11-02-2001, 05:11 PM
Read to your child. My mother read everything she was reading out loud. I get too impatient with reading prose aloud when they are too young to get it, so I read poetry (Milne, Fields, Suess, Silverstien, Stevenson.....). It's close to singing. Do that too.
But, there is nothing sadder than the adolescent whose parents push him/her constantly. Those who don't rebel and drop out (usually figuratively, but sometimes literally) take over the pushing themselves, and are devastated when they aren't living up to perfection.
So, I agree with DTNF - just love your child. Take him/her with you almost everywhere, but don't feel guilty when you go out alone. Be consistent, they need to know they can count on you. Just watch, and wait and nurture. Their gifts may be very different than you think or hope. All of mine are gifted in math, but none in language, only one in music, only one in drama/speaking (all of these were my areas), but one in art and one in athletics (don't know where those came from).
So, just cherish them as they are. Because, before you know it, they won't be babies, or toddlers, or children, or adolescents anymore.
11-02-2001, 05:23 PM
"""While I can usually barf up a lunch while reading someone's bragging ..."""
I know I know - sorry.
But I was just trying to give the results of my efforts! (Don't blame a mom for bragging! :smile:
As I said - my younger daughter who's 18 months (can you believe it's been 18 months!?), is in the normal range of language skills right now.
In fact I was afraid that since I had not read to her NEARLY as much, that I had damaged her for life. Not so - she loves books as much as her sister ever did - although her attention span for longer stories is shorter (more normal) since she didn't get the long ones read to her as much when she was tiny.
OH! I now remember the other thing I was going to say above!
Since I had girls - most of the toys they got as gifts were "girly" toys - dolls, etc.
If you have a girl - be sure to request (or buy) toys such as Tinker Toys, those gear-type toys (I don't know what they're called - they're like baby-erecter sets), math/science-oriented toys, and puzzles and such.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Traci - Admin on 2001-11-02 17:24 ]</font>
Dr T Non-Fan
11-02-2001, 07:04 PM
Only slightly less barf-inducing than having one brag about his own life. In that we case we know no one cares at all.
11-03-2001, 07:59 AM
I have heard that children that have exposure to making music growing up with be more likely to excel in math and sciences. Checking out people I know, this seems to be true. Many co-workers and friends in similar fields were in band growing up.
11-03-2001, 11:25 AM
DTNF...there's nothing wrong with being left-handed. Granted, there are a lot of handi-caps out there for left handers...bowling balls, can openers, clothing irons, slot machines, spiral notebooks... And maybe we might live a shorter life due to all of the "stress" from living in a right-handed world. But, it's not all bad. You learn to accomodate yourself...and if you're lucky, maybe the kid is ambidexterious and would be an incredible athlete.
I'm no parent, but don't go forcing your child to be right-handed. That's what they did in the olden days and maybe that's why we have so many messy writers now. I'm proud to be a lefty. Being a lefty just makes the child more unique...it doens't tramatize them for life.
One more thing...one theory to left-handedness is that as a baby/toddler the child wasn't challenged enough in using his/her right hand, so he switched to the left hand. :smile: :smile: :smile: Rock on...I'm gifted by this theory!
11-03-2001, 11:30 AM
I totally agree with Dr. T Non Fan and Traci. They said what I think your pediatrician would tell you: every child has unique "gifts" Some are gifted at reading, some at math, some at art or music. If you try to force your child to be gifted at math, (s)he may not have the chance to discover another, greater gift more suitable. You're only a kid once - let your child enjoy discovering his gifts and let yourself enjoy him/her as an individual! (Who knows you may even deny the world a great artistic talent while trying to form a mathematical mind, and setting unrealistic goals for your child may lead to unneeded disappointment and frustration.)
I was looking at a mail order catalog last night from the Discovery Store (DiscoveryStore.com). I thought of this thread when I saw a video called "Smart Babies?" The description says, "This series examines the validity of the claims that increasing numbes of parents feel the need to boost their children's IQ...You'll watch as leading scientists and psychologists in the field of child development explain what hyper-parenting means and whether it really means anything at all.
I agree with Minerva, too: nothing is sadder than when a parent overly pushes a child. Unfortunately, I already see it happening with kids in my son's 3rd grade class and their parents! When the child isn't meeting his mom's unrealistic expectations, she calls other parents complaining about the teachers. I can just imagine what the poor kids will be like by the time they're in high school
11-03-2001, 11:31 AM
How are bowling balls a handicap against left handers?
11-03-2001, 11:56 AM
The right-handed ball is drilled differently than left-handed. It does not matter if you have your own ball it will be drilled for you, but if you use alley balls you will have a harder time finding a good fit. Also, the oil pattern on the lane will favor right handers hook because there are few left handers to establish a track on the lane.
On the flip side, there is always work in MLB for any left hander that can pitch at all. Lefties also have some advantages in basketball, tennis and other sports.
11-03-2001, 01:43 PM
Macroman is correct about the bowling balls...which is why I own my own PINK bowling ball. (Hey, I was in middle school when I got it...I didn't know any better to pick a different color.)
And, Macroman is also correct on the whole tennis and bball stuff. I played tennis in my younger days one time an opponent was so shocked at my serve because it spun the opposite direction than she was expecting. Hehe...I think I won that match. :smile:
THere are so many more things that are lefty handi-caps. Ice cream scoops, belts, wristwatches, spatulas, knives (at least ones with ridges on them), scissors, sewing machines... :smile:
One other thing on trying to change your child to a righty...they can then view the lefthanded world as wrong and bad. So many words in the world have negative connotations to the leftiness of the world.
11-03-2001, 02:03 PM
How is a spatula biased?
11-03-2001, 03:17 PM
Pick up a spatula sometime and look at how you old it and take not of where the curve of it is. Also, think of how you would use it in...cleaning out a can of soup. In the stroke that you use to whip out the stuff sticking to the side, you are using the straight edge of the spatula. That means you reach every little crevice of the soup can.
Now when I pick it up (and other lefties out there) and try to clean out the soup can, I'm using the curved edge to side of the can. So, I can't get in the seams of the can. If I hold it so that the straight edge is against the side of the can, in order to scrap it out, I have to use a backwards motion that is akward and clumsy.
I believe htat is how the spatula is a handi-cap. I never realized it was a handicap until my calendar full of lefty tidbits told me so. But, it didn't tell me how it was a handicap. So, the next time I picked up a spatula, I tried to figure out why it was one and that is what I came up with. Make sense? A demonstration would be good at this point...hard to do online. :wink:
11-03-2001, 04:33 PM
All of the spatulas in my kitchen seem to be symetrical wrt which hand you hold it in.
11-04-2001, 09:45 AM
My kids are in the gifted program at their schools, so I'll share how we have parented them.
Our priority is to have good kids, not gifted. Sure, being smart is nice, but being a good person is much more important.
Before they were school age, they were taken care of by their parents, grandparents, or aunt. Their environment was always loving, stable, and predictable. They were read to a lot, and all of their caregivers like to think about things, so there was lots of discussion and stimulation. They watched some tv, but were encouraged to play instead of watch tv. They were never pushed to do anything.
We have disciplined them. We spanked as necessary when they were smaller. Kids have to know that there are limits, that the parents are in charge. There are, of course, other methods of discipline that can also be effective, but there are appropriate times and circumstances for spanking.
I think we have created an environment in which they can succeed. So we have not done anything fancy, but we have just used common sense.
A couple thoughts about parenting:
I believe that one of the most important things you can do as a parent is to put yourself in your kids' shoes. Asking "How does it make my child feel?" and "How does it impact my child?" etc (doing your best to remove your own biases) is IMO one of the most important things we can do for our kids. Of course we can't and shouldn't always do what our kids want, but we need to be aware about how things impact them.
As adults and parents, we must often endure something in the short run to make things better in the long run. Don't give in to whining for candy at the grocery store checkout, for example, because you're teaching them that whining works. Once you give in, it is extremely difficult to turn the behavior around. You have to stand your ground. (OK, so whining at the grocery store check out is a pet peeve.)
11-04-2001, 10:01 AM
Like I said...I don't know how exactly spatulas are lefty handicaps, I just was told by my nifty lefty tidbit calendar that they were. That was the only thing that I could come up with. Maybe I just don't know how to use a spatula correctly. :wink: Maybe I'm not so gifted after all. I suppose we'll find out come January and I find out if I pass my exam. haha.
11-04-2001, 10:07 AM
Great post KC!
I agree with everything you said.
As we drift into a discussion of discipline methods:
I spank on rare occassion, in certain circumstances - and with clear warning, "If you ... you will get a spanking." Then follow through. And even my 18mo knows what will get her spanked. It's funny - she will walk up to the edge of the street, pause, smack her hands together and turn around. I've only had to spank her once or twice for going into the street - because she thought it was a game.
I think the most important discipline tactics are consistency and follow-through.
Some of my friends with same age kids are amazed that my kids are obedient (most of the time). They KNOW that there will be trouble otherwise.
I do the 1-2-3 thing, and they both know that there is hell to pay on 3!
11-05-2001, 09:22 AM
To the comment on Music & math, I have two of three kids who are musically very advanced, the third one is the most mathematical, the other two are good at science, but nothing overly advanced. My wife is musical, but has not math/science ability at all. I on the other hand am completely non-musical (I can't even clap in rhythm unless I watch for the other peoples hands coming together).
As to the spatula. I believe it isn't the pancake flipper they are talking about, but the smaller white rubber/plastic flat paddle that you would use to stir or remove condensed soup.
I agree with the DTNF & Traci comments (how about that DTNF) & especially the comments about not forcing the kids into anything. Most sports parents make me ill.
Now if you want to make special kids, you need to select a make to complement the attributes you want to pass on, assuming you have them in the first place.
or you can marry your cousin and get a world class banjo player
11-05-2001, 09:32 AM
There is lots of documented evidence of correlation between giftedness (or maybe talent is really the better word) in music and mathematics. Whether exposing your children to music will enhance their mathematical abilities is up in the air. My personal theory is that it is more just the common talent, but it doesn't hurt and music makes life more pleasant anyway. If you have a keyboard or piano, let your child play it. At our house we only had three rules - no banging, no sticky fingers and not when people were trying to sleep (or at other selected times when the noise was not appropriate, like when the boss was a guest at dinner).
Also, let them draw and color as much as they want. Blocks (the big old-fashioned wooden kind), lincoln logs, duplos/legos, railroads, measure-up cups, roller coaster (Dr office toy) and marble works are great toys for creativity and mathematics. And don't underestimate Candyland and Chutes and Ladders (except it's really hard to cheat to lose at Candyland).
Consistency is absolutely a key - and is VERY HARD. It requires more energy (psychic and physcial) than the rest combined.
P.S. I forgot Prelutsky and Longfellow - both great for reading aloud to kids.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Minerva (Dr Mom) on 2001-11-05 13:05 ]</font>
My mother was one of those people who was forced to be right-handed. People believed it was a sign of the devil to use your left hand. They would offer her candy and then slap her hand if she reached with her left hand. Adding to the list of items that are slightly less user-friendly to southpaws: telephones (designed to hold the phone in the left hand while using the more dexterous right hand to key in the number and/or write); even worse were the old rotary phones (clockwise dial direction is easier with the right hand);
wind-up alarm clocks and toys;
number pad on computer keyboard (right-hand side);
coffee mugs with a picture/logo/whatever on one side (only visible if you hold the mug in the right hand);
pens at checkout counters at stores, used to sign credit card receipts (connected to the right side of the writing surface so it gets in the way if you use your left hand);
double doors, where one is locked (it's always the one that requires you to pull with your left hand that is locked);
certain knives, potato peelers, ladels, etc. (although many are now made for use with either hand).Minor inconveniences that are the price we pay for living in a world dominated by right-handed people. OTOH, payback comes in the form of anything that has to be screwed on/in, such as the lid of a jar. While it's easier for a rightie to screw the lid on, it's easier for the leftie to unscrew it!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 42 on 2001-11-05 12:40 ]</font>
11-05-2001, 12:43 PM
In addition to basic nurturing in the first year (rocking, cuddling, cooing, etc.), don't underestimate the value of nutrition. This may sound silly (of course you're going to feed your baby), but some things like sufficient iron can help a child develop more fully.
You're still not going to make your baby a genius with iron supplements if he/she doesn't have it in the make-up anyway.
11-05-2001, 01:06 PM
There's a great book on baby / toddler food - Feed Me, I'm Yours
Dr T Non-Fan
11-05-2001, 01:11 PM
1. Um, I'M left-handed. I try not to make a big deal out of it. I even joke about it.
2. Maybe you don't know what a spatula is. It's for flipping burgers. Unless it's a special spatula, with a bottle opener on one side and a tenderizer on the other (see Pampered Chef), I think you're referring to something else.
3. Some knives are cerrated on only one side. Don't know the effect, but I do cut with my left hand, so I don't have to waste time switching.
4. Soup ladels have the pouring thingy on the right-hander's side. We get over it by pouring with our right hands.
5. Manual can openers operate with the right hand. Of course, if you've never used a left-handed one, how would you know it was easier?
6. All that crap about accident rates and death rates is, well, crap. It's not as if our right arms are dead, or missing bones.
11-05-2001, 01:25 PM
"Spatula" can mean a couple of different things. I think ne11er was taking about something like this:http://www.isinorthamerica.com/download/spatula.jpg
My jr. high cooking teacher (hey, it was required) called them "rubber bowl scrapers".
My work here is done...
11-05-2001, 01:26 PM
Oddly enough, in a college psych class the professor said that there was a high corellation between left-handedness and giftedness, but only among lefties who were "mirror-writers", i.e. those that curl their hand at an awkward angle to write. If they held their hand normally, the letters would come out mirror images of what they were intended to be.
He also said the same correlation could be observed between giftedness and righties who were mirror writers, but it was difficult to detect a rightie mirror writer because they have to think to write left-handed and tend to try to correct it. He said the easiest way to tell a rightie mirror writer, though not perfect, was to tell a rightie to pick up a pen with their left hand, close their eyes and write their first name quickly, w/o thinking, then check if it is forward or reversed.
(Gee, my Rubbermaid Heat-Resistant Spatula is no good at all for flipping burgers, but great for scraping the side of the wok, since I'm a rightie.)
11-05-2001, 02:10 PM
I can't remember who said what, but picture provided by Pseudo is exactly what I was thinking of when I referred to a spatula. My nifty calendar didn't specify what kind of spatula was a handicap (the burger/pancake flipper or the "rubber bowl scraper).
SOmeone also said something about taking leftiness too seriously and how we should joke about it. I agree. I'm not posting these things for pure scientific discussion...there is supposed to be some FUN to the kooky ways of the world.
I honestly don't know what to believe about the whole lefties live shorter lives schpiel. If it's true...well, maybe they are some majorally stressed out lefties. But, maybe the rest of the lefties are like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park...haha...we adapted to our environment. :wink:
I've never heard the theory between HOW the lefty writes corresponding to giftedness. I'm not a mirror writer, I don't think. It would hurt my hand too much to curl it up like that. What do they say about lefties with very nice handwriting?
Maybe we should start a little lefty thread so that we don't really screw up the people getting tips on raising their children. :smile:
11-05-2001, 02:13 PM
DTNF...about the knife thing...it probably depends on how you hold your utensils. I hold things the Australian way (my parents lived in Australia for four years before I born and picked that style up). So, since I hold my knife in my right hand, ridges are on the outer side for cutting my food. Some people are just weird with everything though...regardless of which hand they use to write with.
11-05-2001, 02:24 PM
On 2001-11-05 14:13, ne11er wrote:
DTNF...about the knife thing...it probably depends on how you hold your utensils. I hold things the Australian way...<font size=2>Upside down? :razz:
11-05-2001, 02:37 PM
1. Heck if I know.
2. But don't listen to anything Traci says.
3. I don't think you can make your kid any smarter or more gifted. (You might encourage left-handedness, though.)
4. Help and encourage your child to love the topic/area in which he/she might be gifted.
5. Instill a sense of discipline and desire to win or pursuit of excellence in the subject area. At the same time, try not to beat the joy out of it for them - a difficult combination. (Genius is 90% or 99% perspiration, etc. I believe it is often a labor of love.)
6. If any of this coincides with Traci's advice, she just got lucky and said something right for a change (but probably for the wrong reason.) :smile:
11-05-2001, 02:38 PM
Hey, what about the advantages of being left-handed.
My mother was an accountant, and she was left-handed. She could jot down numbers with her left hand while her right hand smoked up the big old clunky adding machines they used to use (which HAD to be used with the right hand).
I think about this sometimes on exams. How much time could I save if I didn't have to: Calc, pick pencil up, write, put pencil down, Calc, etc.
11-05-2001, 03:15 PM
If your mother could calculate w/ her right hand; why can't you do the same with your left, while writing with your right??
11-05-2001, 03:58 PM
Spend time with them. NOthing is more valuable.
Read. With them, and for your own pleasure in their company.
I do object to these 'hyper' parents whose attitude could be summed up by: "Don't let them see anything that was invented after 1945" On the other hand, studies are beginning to show that early exposure to computers has little beneficial effect. Still, my 3 year old loves just using it as a tactile device, and typing 'rm *' on my machine :wink:
Involve them in life - particularly at the grocery store. You've got all sorts of mathematical and economic concepts there. Not to mention colors, shapes,...
The simplest play is just fine. Let them get dirty and involved in their world. Children learn primarily from playing.
We tried all these 'smart toys' Not much effect, although trains are a big hit, as are marble tracks.
Just let them use their imagination and play their own way. One of the most used toys in our playroom is a set of plastic animals.
And a BA-35 actuarial calculator. Kids like to imitate their parents, and mine likes to 'Study' with me by doodling on paper and playing with his calculator. Don't worry...I say...It's just a phase.
11-05-2001, 04:10 PM
At the risk of starting a small war --
If you truly are interested in maximizing your child's potential, if you use a pacifier at all (which I don't recommend, but maybe that's my bias showing), use it ONLY when your baby is going to sleep. The sucking stimulates chemicals in the brain which have a soporific effect, which is why they call it a pacifier. Therefore, children are not as alert when they are using a pacifier.
Thumb-sucking has the same effect, however it is not such a problem since children find it difficult to suck their thumbs and DO things at the same time. Therefore, most children only suck their thumbs (or fingers) when they are trying to relax or sleep anyway. And many children do not need this additional sucking (beyond the breast or bottle feeding) to relax anyway.
[One of my children became a thumb sucker at 9 weeks (for bedtime purposes through about age 13), the others never did. None ever used a pacifier. (Small sample size, for illustrative purposes only.)]
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Minerva (Dr Mom) on 2001-11-05 16:13 ]</font>
11-06-2001, 08:04 AM
"""don't underestimate the value of nutrition"""
I agree with this also - and THIS is one thing that you CAN heavily influence in your child.
When introducing new foods as a baby - don't just give them carrots and peas. Gerber makes a wonderful line of organic first foods (I didn't buy them because they were organic - I bought them because they had combos with spinach, broccoli, squash etc.)
Or make your own: Cut up a small amount of fresh vegies, put them on a teacup saucer with a little water and cover with another saucer. Microwave for 1-3 minutes and mash them up or puree. (Some people like to make bigger batches and then freeze them in ice-cube trays)
And get into the habit of buying whole-grain products now.
If you start them out on a wide variety you will be much better off when they hit the picky stage and will only eat 3-4 different foods ... reintroducing things will be much easier.
11-06-2001, 08:17 AM
Science News has an article about the importance of choline, including the pre-natal period. Benefits for the brain and cognitive function are specifically highlighted. Two excellent sources are liver and eggs. (And here everybody thought eggs were bad for you because of cholesterol.)
Going from memory here, I think the link is http://www.sciencenews.org.
Dr T Non-Fan
11-06-2001, 05:55 PM
Eggs ARE bad for you -- if you have a cholesterol problem.
Most children and fetuses don't have cholesterol problems.
Heck, many people don't have cholesterol problems.
And if they do, it's not just because they eat things like eggs. Start with the couch potato cannibalizing a bag of chips in front of the TV, then go from there.
And even then, hard-boil, eat the egg white, and throw the yolk away.
IMO, the cholesterol hype is the biggest crock since the infamous oat bran scandal of the late-80's. What the advertisers of low-cholesterol food fail to tell you is that the single biggest factor affecting your cholesterol level is heredity. Certain people are predisposed to high cholesterol levels, and these people certainly need to watch what they eat. But for the majority of us, we'd probably have to chug a gallon of bacon grease every day in order to get our cholesterol up to dangerous levels.
11-06-2001, 07:09 PM
On 2001-11-04 10:07, Traci - Admin wrote in part:
I do the 1-2-3 thing, and they both know that there is hell to pay on 3!
My parents both did the 1-2-3 thing, though my mom taught us fractions trying to get out of getting to 3.
My kids were extremely confused when they were younger though because my wife goes to 5 and I only go to 3. I could never understand why they would not stop after I said 2, then one day I hear my wife counting and she got to three and I was expecting all hell to break loose and then I hear "4" and I just started to laugh.
11-06-2001, 07:33 PM
When my wife tells the kids to do something, she always follows with the 1-2-3 thing. They never do what she wants until after 2. I never do the 1-2-3 thing, and they usually do what I want right away.
11-06-2001, 08:24 PM
Well - I say 1 and 2 pretty quickly and they usually jump - because I don't pause long before 3 - and I NEVER do fractions (we'll learn those when it's time to teach them to cook! Also, I try not to overuse it - I would rather they just listen the first time - I DESPISE repeating myself - the more you do it - the less they pay attention next time.
I was also going to say a few words about sleeping habits. I did everything wrong with the first child - but got it right the second time around.
With my first, I rocked her EVERY time she went to sleep. She would never take a pacifer or thumb - so she got into the habit of needing ME to go to sleep - EVERY TIME. I'm still battling her at bedtime 3+ years later.
With the second, the first days home from the hospital, she was in her cradle with a stuffed bunny. She found her thumb quickly. Today (at 18mos), when she sees "Bun-Bun", she grabs the ears, the thumb goes in and I don't hear from her until 2-3 hours later for nap or 11 hours later in the morning. The only times I have had to get up for her during night (since she gave up night feedings) have been if the bunny got lost under the covers.
If you do this early - you do not have to let them cry - they don't know enough to be scared or manipulative when they're tiny - then as they grow, they are used putting themselves to sleep.
Also - to get both of my kids sleeping through the night ASAP (I need my 8 hours!) I had them sleep with me for the first months. This is not for everyone but it worked well for me: I put them on a small baby blanket on the other side of the bed. I could hear them sucking air when they got hungry and would just pull them by the blanket over, nurse (I would usually fall back asleep) then pull them back away from me when they were done - this way they never got into the habit of fully awakening in the night.
This worked well for us because I never had to get out of bed for night-feedings. My husband didn't mind the guest-room for a while because he got full night's sleeps. And the babies were sleeping through the night on their own much faster than many babies I know.
Traci, I certainly see the appeal of it, but isn't putting an infant in your bed frowned upon because of the danger of them rolling/falling out of bed or you rolling over on them? (Maybe it's OK if you have a big bed, you're a restful sleeper, and you block the edge of the bed so they can't roll/fall off, or put them in their own bed once they can move enough that falling out of bed is a concern.)
11-07-2001, 11:02 AM
Co-sleeping is a perfectly acceptable and safe option if you do it right -
*no heavy blankets
*no alcohol or drugs which would impair your ability to respond to your environment
*no cigarettes which would create a bad environment for the child
- she even went one step further to remove teh husband, who is less likely to be in tune with the child. There have actually been some minor studies which suggest that the interaction with mother and chid while co-sleeping reduces the likelihood of SIDS due to regulation of breathing patterns.
11-07-2001, 12:47 PM
I also believe that co-sleeping can be safe with the right parent(s) and the right environment. However, caution is everything. Our community had a tragedy when a sleeping mother rolled over onto her infant. In that circumstance, someone had put the infant in bed with the mother after the mother had fallen asleep. My thought is that, since the mother fell asleep without the expectation of her infant being in the bed, her subconcious didn't keep a "watch" on out for her baby.
11-07-2001, 01:54 PM
Co-sleeping is a perfectly acceptable and safe option if:
*You live in Kentucky
*You only have one bed in your house (i.e., you live in Kentucky)
*No alcohol or drugs unless they're used to put the baby to sleep
11-07-2001, 02:22 PM
Yes - some people absolutely frown on having them in bed with you.
If you were a deep or restless sleeper, had a waterbed, small bed, or some other reason that would make it not safe - then it would not be the thing to do. Some people warn about the dangers of SIDS on a too soft mattress or with pillows, comforters, etc.
You just ahve to use common sense, IMO. We have a king-size bed. I put pillows on the opposite side - but they were sleeping through the night in their own beds before they were able to roll off anyway. And I was never afraid of rolling over on them.
Another bonus - during the early months, when you check to see that they're beathing every 10 minutes (you do this with the first one, after that you realize that you staring at them is not what is keeping them alive) I could just open one eye, check that they were okay, and go back to sleep.
Other parents know what I'm talking about - the frustration that they wake up during the night - then the panic the first morning you wake up and realize that they have not cried for the last 6-8 hours.
11-07-2001, 02:33 PM
On 2001-11-07 14:22, Traci - Admin wrote:
Other parents know what I'm talking about - the frustration that they wake up during the night - then the panic the first morning you wake up and realize that they have not cried for the last 6-8 hours.
I don't remember ever feeling like more of a moron then when I woke my daughter from a perfectly sound sleep, because of that panic feeling and just not being able to feel her breathing.
11-07-2001, 02:43 PM
Funny - I deleted from my post above - one more rule about babies:
NEVER - wake a sleeping baby!
But I did the same thing with my first (I told you I did everything wrong!).
About the 4-7th day of life - they have consumed enough calories to sustain a longer sleep and they are plum tuckered out from passing all that icky merconium - and so - they take a REALLY long sleep that first week.
I was getting more and more upset (not to mention full!) as each hour passed and she did not wake up to be fed. After 6 hours, I was in a full-scale, hormone-driven, new-mommy PANIC. I could not get her to wake up for ANYTHING! I finally did - it's a wonder she didn't suffer from shaken-baby syndrome!
Even the look on her face at 6 days old told me what an idiot I was!
On 2001-11-07 14:22, Traci - Admin wrote:You just ahve to use common sense, IMO. We have a king-size bed. I put pillows on the opposite side - but they were sleeping through the night in their own beds before they were able to roll off anyway. Good stuff - sounds like you had it all covered. And I agree, it's definitely easier to get back to sleep if you don't have to get out of bed in the first place.
11-07-2001, 08:07 PM
"""it's definitely easier to get back to sleep if you don't have to get out of bed in the first place."""
Yes - and I figured if it was true for me, it was probably true for the baby too!
11-07-2001, 08:32 PM
On 2001-11-07 11:02, Flora wrote:
- she even went one step further to remove teh husband, who is less likely to be in tune with the child.
Where did you get this?
11-08-2001, 12:07 AM
Because I mentioned in a post above that he didn't mind the guest-room for a while.
He's a very light sleeper and since there was nothing he could do to help in the middle of the night anyway, I assured him it was okay to go to the other room and get a good night's sleep.
11-08-2001, 06:02 AM
I was refering to the part about the husband being less in tune with the child.
11-08-2001, 08:44 AM
Gosh I don't remember where I got that - I have read about 15 parenting books, a couple of them attachment parenting, several online articles etc. I am pretty sure I read that. And in MY case it was definitely true - my husband sleeps like a log. It is true he seemed more easily roused when we had our son in bed with us, but he was no where near as tuned into him as I was. I am not saying sample of one proves the rule, I am giving an example. However, I cannot remember exactly where I did real that particular tidbit.
11-08-2001, 09:11 AM
Flora: you husband hears the baby, he's just better at ignoring it knowing you'll get up soon
11-08-2001, 09:19 AM
Gosh, Flora, in my case it was definitely untrue.
11-08-2001, 10:05 AM
""" I was refering to the part about the husband being less in tune with the child"""
Oh - oops!
Anyway - while it may not have been true in your case (and others) I would venture to guess that GENERALLY speaking, the mother is USUALLY more in tune with the baby than anyone else.
Probably a "primary caregiver" thing, which would usually mean the mom.
11-08-2001, 10:23 AM
I think that may generally be true. On the minor troubles in life, I know that I tend to go more along the line of wanting to help the little guy "toughen up", and my wife has a little stronger tendency to protect him. We both love him dearly, I just think that Mom and Dad have different roles (not different responsibilties) and that a Mom's tendency to "protect" may translate into being "more in tune with his needs" in circumstances where a little more tenderness is needed.
11-08-2001, 10:49 AM
You may want to toughen the little guy up, but that doesn't mean you are more likely to roll over on him than your wife.
11-08-2001, 11:05 AM
11-08-2001, 11:37 AM
On 2001-11-07 14:43, Traci - Admin wrote:
... what an idiot I was!
Don't restrict yourself to the past tense. :smile:
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