Changing Jobs

[Anonymous]

Which is/was better for you: Location or job description? Why?

[Macroman]

I'd start with location myself. I'd do almost anything (within reason) but there are some places I don't think I'd ever move (ie NYC).

Are you designing a job search web site? Why the question.

[Anonymous]

When I got my job, I wanted to end up in a certain region of the country. Now I don't think I would take a job outside this city. I wouldn't want to make the kids start all over again - new school, new friends, etc. They have already done that once. After they're out of school, who knows. If I were to lose my job, I would hope to find something here. So the short answer is, location is quite important to me.

[Anonymous]

Macroman: I'm debating the decision myself right now and want to here other's thoughts. I'm leaning heavily toward location.

[Patience]

Location, Location, Location.

I would never move out of the NY Metro area.
Though the possibilities for what I consider a reasonable commute are very large

[Maine-iac]

I've always considered location first, and been happier for it.

I would note, however, that my salary is probably not as high as it could have been in a more urban locality.

This doesn't bother me particularly, but if your goal is to maximize salary and/or reach the top of the profession, the job description might be the more key factor.

But where I am, I have an interesting job, a decent income,a spouse with the job he wanted, and a great environment to live in, which far outweighs the big bucks or more visibility.

[Enough Exams Already]

Location and job description can be a trade-off. On one hand, the best job in the world can be a drag if it's in a crappy place; you're going to have to leave the building *some* time. OTOH, the best location is meaningless if you never get to leave to office and enjoy it.

Personally, I've usually looked for location first, job description second. My theory has been that it's easier to change jobs than to change cities.

[Anonymous]

I went through the same thing...

Born and raised a California boy, but wanted to do more actuarial investment work. Figured I only have one life to live and found this great ALM job on the East Coast (there are NO ALM jobs on the West).

No regrets. I learned a lot about a new region of the country and met new friends. And, for the first time, didn't mind going to work.

Personally, I think using work to pick up the bill of a big move is a great way to go. It's nice to move to a new place where the thousands of dollars of moving expenses are paid by someone else.

If you're single and adventurous, I'd take the job description priority route at the expense of a brand new location -- live it up!

[Macroman]

question from the ignorant:

What is ALM?

On personal preference I always put location ahead of job description, at least general location. Specifically, I want to stay out of all the really big cities, although being in a suburban location near a big city might not be bad.

Right now (before or after 9/11) there is no way I'm going to Manhatten, downtown Chicago, or the San Francisco Metro area (high COL) for any amount of money or job description (well short of CEO which I am no way qualified for). I would also be less than enthused by Denver, Atlanta, Phoenix, Philadelphia and similar cites for similar reasons. There are plenty of opportunities in smaller communities although you do usually pay a price in salary and career development for limiting yourself.

I would probably make an exception for Boston because I am facinated by the history in the New England area.

[Anonymous]

ALM = Asset/Liability Management

Well, if you're married with kids, I can see your point.

I think it's a crime for a single person to not be in a huge city. There's plenty of time to move to suburbia. By living in major cities, I think you really learn how America works. Bars, one night stands, crowded streets, crime, major city sports, etc. are all things that people should experience before settling down. Yes, you can get this in smaller places, but not to the point of sensory overload. Otherwise, won't he/she always be wondering what "it's like out there"?

Sorry to digress. Just my opinion. Actually, seems like I do think location is more important than job description, then...

[an2001on]

Go, Boston!

[Anonymous]

I don't really see any votes for job description. Has anyone taken a less prestegious position because of location? If so, are you glad you did?

[slam]

Someone has to defend the honor of living in a major city. I grew up in eastern PA and always viewed NYC as "a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there." We were just close enough to NYC that my parents took me there to Broadway shows, Knicks games and some of the standard touristy stuff. I ended up living in NYC right out of college and wouldn't dream of living anywhere else. My wife and I are raising our 2 boys here and I think they are getting a wonderful upbringing.

[Patience]

On 2001-11-05 21:06, daddyo wrote:
Has anyone taken a less prestegious position because of location?

I haven't, because I haven't been forced to. But I would, to stay in the same area I am currently living.

Of course their are limits on how far down I would go. BTW, married with three kids, younger than college age. I think this is extrememly relevant on how many people would react

[The Mister]

On 2001-11-05 21:06, daddyo wrote:
I don't really see any votes for job description. Has anyone taken a less prestegious position because of location? If so, are you glad you did?<font size=2>I suppose I ought to put in my few cents' worth...

I've always wanted to work closer to home. Normally I do value location over job description. However, the last time I changed jobs (June 2000), there simply weren't any openings close to home. As it turns out, though, I enjoy my current job much more than any that I've had thus far, and if there had been openings closer to home, they would have most likely been with JCPenney Direct Marketing, which as you know has been liquidated.So I'm doubly glad to have my job. It's well-worth the commute. I would be very happy if my employer decided to move out to the suburbs, but that's just not going to happen.

[Anonymous]

face it - suburbia is d*mn boring sort of like marriage.

[42]

OK - I'll be the lone dissenting vote. I chose job description over location, partly because I have found the type of actuarial work that I enjoy the most and don't want to switch, and partly because I love soaking up everything a new city has to offer. But I totally understand why location is so important to most people and would probably feel the same way if I had school-aged kids.

[Anonymous]

You can't take the country out of this girl. There isn't enough money to make me work in NYC or LA. I like my space and the availability of solitude.

I have a 35 min commute from my home in the country to work in a Midwestern city. I love that!

[davespencer]

I've helped lots of people with this. There is no perfect answer. It depends on point of life you're at, family situation/needs, desire for a good job versus a good career, personal motivators, what you're willing to give up in return to get what you want. What other people think is interesting to know, but in the end you should ignore everyone's guidance, and do what is best for you, and only you know that.

[Anonymous]

On 2001-11-09 19:32, davespencer wrote:
...but in the end you should ignore everyone's guidance...

Especially Dave Spencer's

[Anonymous]

Yikes advising someone to ignore everyone's advice is kind of like those logic paradoxes "This sentence is false" etc. etc.

[Anonymous]

On 2001-11-10 01:33, Anonymous wrote:
Yikes advising someone to ignore everyone's advice is kind of like those logic paradoxes "This sentence is false" etc. etc.



No s**t, Sherlock.

[Anonymous]

Any of you who are afraid to live/work in a mjor city now needs to get a spine, and get rid of the yellow stripe running down your back.

Your gonna get paid sh** working in Kansas or Nebraska.

[Macroman]

not after you account for the difference in rent! I pay $525 for a 2 bedroom. What's that buy in NYC? Your own grate on the street? Oh, and you want to park a car? forget it!

[Traci]

"""Your gonna get paid sh** working in Kansas or Nebraska."""

Not true - in any sense. When the COL is factored in, the pay is the same - sometimes better.

Plus - the benefits: I can let my kids walk to school, or play outside with the neighborhood kids. I can get clear across town in minutes, but I live close enough to enjoy the city when I want to.

Some of us like to look out our windows and see for miles - wave to the guys on horseback on a sunny day. Leave our cars unlocked at the grocery store ...

I love to visit and explore NYC or other big metro areas - it can be a blast - but then I want to go home.

[Patience]

working in NYC doesn't have to mean living in NYC.

My kids walk to school. Play outside. I don't lock the car when I park in the neighborhood. I know the neighbors.

When I was in Manhattan I had friends on the train and played cards, read or caught up on work.

Plus I am near great museums, theature, sports, shopping, site seeing etc.

My oldest will take a train into the city to see a play with her friends.

I am 10 minutes from the beach. 45 minutes from the farms less than an hour from the moutains. Plus less than an 1 1/2 hours from 5 airports if I do decide to leave.

I'm just missing the smell of horse.

_________________
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name...
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Patience on 2001-11-19 09:09 ]</font>

[42]

It's always a tradeoff. To get the benefits of the big city (arts, recreation, health services, etc.) you get the drawbacks (cost of living, traffic, pollution, crime, etc.). Maybe it depends on how often you take advantage of the benefits. If you only go to a museum or a ball game a few times a year, it might be more economical to do so on a "day trip to the big city".

From my personal experience, the COL factor in salary scales reflects only a portion of the differential in the COL. Nevertheless, I still like the big cities, but not NYC. I've been there several times and have been to all five boroughs and New Jersey, and I still haven't found a place where I would feel safe leaving my car unattended, never mind unlocked. (And I don't scare easily!) Patience - help me out - what are some of the nicer neighborhoods that I can visit next time that will help to give me a better impression of NYC?

[Anonymous]

The point is there is no real reason one needs to have a car in NY City - I know this is point most Americans would not understand. You can always rent a car when you need one - which is probably much less than you can believe.

[Patience]

I'm talking about living on Long Island, Westchester or further north, Southern Jersey, Connecticut, there are lots of suburbs outside the city you can feel safe in and still have all the benefits of the city.

[slam]

If you live in the suburbs, you have a commute to work in the city. Some of those commutes are reasonable (in my opinion), some are not. The length of the commute and the cost of housing are directly proportional.

Another problem with the suburbs is that although one theoretically has easy access to the city, one tends not to avail oneself of the city nearly as often. Over and over again, I've had friends move out to the suburbs saying that they can come into the city anytime for anything. But they don't. Tomorrow night, my boys and I will walk over to watch them inflate the Thanksgiving parade balloons. If I lived in the suburbs, I would probably have done this once or twice, but not every year.

To answer the question about "nice" neighborhoods to live in, try both the Upper East Side and the Upper West Side. There is a lot of variation in those neighborhoods, but generally they are fairly safe. Battery Park City is also one of the safest areas of the city, but I would wait until the air clears down there.

Even though one can manage quite nicely without a car in NYC (I did it for my first 10 years living here), it is nice to have one. I agree, that is a feature about NYC which is difficult to fathom for someone who lives elsewhere in the country, even other large cities.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: slam on 2001-11-20 12:00 ]</font>

[42]

Thanks, Patience. I'll check them out next time I'm there. What kind of commute time do you have from these suburbs?
Slam, I know what you mean. I lived in Toronto for several years without a car. I would gladly do it again in any city that has a clean, safe, reliable transit system. (Unfortunately, most cities lack this.)

[Patience]

anywhere from 1/2 hour, depends how far out & where you are working in the city. How far from Penn Station or Grand Central.

& 42 is right, you have to make the effort to go to the city for the extras. But many people do.

[WWSituation]

A lot depends on where your office is.

If you are coming from Long Island or Connecticut and you work by Grand Central, then fine. But if you are coming from Jersey, enjoy another half hour just getting there from Penn Station.

If you don't work near Grand Central or Penn Station, you can likely tack on time as well as the daily stress (and expense) of dealing with the Subway system in addition to the train.

Off the top of my head, Towers is at Grand Central Station and Milliman is at Penn Station. Wyatt and Segal are walkable from Grand Central, but PWC and Mercer will require aditional trains from both Grand Central and Penn Station.

[Patience]

correction Long Island is Penn.

anything less than 40 blocks I walk unless its pouring. Only time I took subway regularly was when I was downtown & then I had additional option of the Brooklyn LIRR stop.

[Mr. Grim]

Mercer and PWC are both walkable from Penn or GC. GC to Mercer is only about an 5 to 6 minute walk

[Macroman]

On living without a car: It is certainly possible, I did not bother to get my driver's licence until I was finishing college. i'm glad too, it was an expese I did not need, even though I was living in a relatively rural area. The mass transit in big cities or even medium size ones is certainly adequete most of the time. I bring up the car issue because most people outside NYC would have a hard time concieving of a decent lifestyle without a car.

Parking a car in most of NYC is obscenely expensive.

No doubt if you call NYC your home you have a difficult time concieving of life where you can breathe the air.

Hey, if that's what you like, God bless you cause someone's got to do it.

[Traci]

My point was only that location is simply a preference - others seem to agree.

I was taking issue with "chevyrules". I'm not 'afraid' to live in NYC - I just don't want to.

[Patience]

My point was that many of the wonderful things you use to define your location can be found in the NY suburbs as well.

As for a car, it is necessary in any burough outside of Manhattan, though parking is not as much of an issue, many of these places are more like the suburbs. People have driveways.

If you are living in the city, a car can be a pain. But for the few times you won't use public transportation, renting is much cheaper than parking & insurance.

[WWSituation]

You can live in Brooklyn with no car. I did so for the last 2 years before I recently moved.

You'd better be in Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights/Williamsburg vicinity and near a subway stop to pull it off.

You can live in Hoboken without a car just fine as well.

[Anonymous]

Just so you know, location won over position for me. My logic: You can change a job, but you can't change a location.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[Anonymous]

Blech, suburbia! What, with all the yuppies? No thanks. I like the rural life. I live on 3 acres, surrounded by farmland. Never gonna find that in any NY suburb. I like wide open spaces (oh I think I'm quoting a country song here), not the crowds of city OR suburban life. I've tried all three, and now it's rural life for me! I hate the way people seem to think your intellect is tied to your proximity to a large city. Really smart people can like living in the country... I'm close enough to a major city to go see plays and museums when I want to.