Why is actuary ranked "Top Job"?

[BallaActuary]

Since I was in college, I've always heard that being an actuary was ranked in the top 5 for the best job to have. Now that I've been in this career for a couple of years, I'm wondering why it's ranked so high. Don't get me wrong, I really like the work I do as an actuary, but I don't think I'd list it as a "top job".
The only advantage to the career is the ability to promote yourself as quickly as you can pass exams. Other than that, what do you think?
My wife is an engineer and her salary, bonuses, and retirement benefits are much more/better than mine. She doesn't have the stress of the exams and I'd label her job security as very good. If anything, my job security is worse because if I don't pass exams, I get fired. People get rewarded not for how much they do for their company, but how much study time they can take during work hours and pass exams. I know mortgage brokers and realtors who make substantially more money than I ever will. There are presidents and VP's who started as claims people or are in things like marketing that make very nice salaries.
I guess my point is that for the education requirement, time spent taking exams, and lack of real job security, the compensation isn't what it should be compared to many other careers.
So, what are the reasons you think it's such a great career?

[WWSituation]

This question gets asked about 12 times a year. They don't consider actuarial students in the survey - it is purely from a credentialed actuaries standpoint. The actuarial student's experience is s far cry from a top job from both a pay and stress standpoint.

[BallaActuary]

This question gets asked about 12 times a year. They don't consider actuarial students in the survey - it is purely from a credentialed actuaries standpoint. The actuarial student's experience is s far cry from a top job from both a pay and stress standpoint.

Oh, okay. Well, count me in as #1 of 12.

[tommie frazier]

cuz being good with Excel gets the chicks.

[joeorez]

This question gets asked about 12 times a year. They don't consider actuarial students in the survey - it is purely from a credentialed actuaries standpoint. The actuarial student's experience is s far cry from a top job from both a pay and stress standpoint.

Similarly, they are probably not considering doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. who are at the beginning of their careers, and whose apprenticeship requirements are quite different than their requirements later on in their careers.

[Bühlmann]

I laugh when people tell me they think I'm doing the actuarial thing because of the money. I always reply that if your goal is to make tons of money, there are better ways than actuarial work.
My wife is a physical therapist. She works 8 hours a day and makes the same amount of money as I do. When she comes home from work though, she gets to watch t.v. I get to study. I think her future compensation prospects are very good as well.

[Happy Professional]

Since I was in college, I've always heard that being an actuary was ranked in the top 5 for the best job to have. Now that I've been in this career for a couple of years, I'm wondering why it's ranked so high. Don't get me wrong, I really like the work I do as an actuary, but I don't think I'd list it as a "top job".
The only advantage to the career is the ability to promote yourself as quickly as you can pass exams. Other than that, what do you think?
My wife is an engineer and her salary, bonuses, and retirement benefits are much more/better than mine. She doesn't have the stress of the exams and I'd label her job security as very good. If anything, my job security is worse because if I don't pass exams, I get fired. People get rewarded not for how much they do for their company, but how much study time they can take during work hours and pass exams. I know mortgage brokers and realtors who make substantially more money than I ever will. There are presidents and VP's who started as claims people or are in things like marketing that make very nice salaries.
I guess my point is that for the education requirement, time spent taking exams, and lack of real job security, the compensation isn't what it should be compared to many other careers.
So, what are the reasons you think it's such a great career?

you aren't an actuary ;)

[WinnieThePooh]

It does not take into account the studying and personal sacrafice until to get the FSA.

After that if you look at pay/hours worked it is pretty good. You won't get rich like an investment banker/lawyer/doctor but you don't have to work like an investment banker/lawyer or doctor.

That being said, would never do this again. The key is money/free time/stress balance

[Happy Professional]

That being said, would never do this again. The key is money/free time/stress balance

How come? Exams not worth the stress?

[Turkey Club]

Your wife might make more money now but that will change once you are fully credentialed. Engineering salaries top out much faster than actuarial salaries, as far as I can tell. The hard part seems to be getting your FSA/FCAS, but after that, for the amount of work and stress that seems involved, the salary is very, very good IMO.

Most engineers will never see the $120-$180k per year salaries many FSA/FCASs get. If you want to make more money than your wife, the path is fairly clear cut..pass more exams.

I have only been in this career for about a year. If I keep passing exams, within a year I should be making more money than my engineering friends who have been in the field 5+ years. Within 2-3 years, my salary should be substantially higher than theirs (assuming, of course, that I keep passing and that they don't file some bling bling patents).

[silverfox]

Am I the only one that thinks exams are easy?

[ShakeNBakes]

Am I the only one that thinks exams are easy?I get 30 out of 40 on an exam. Do I pass? My schools are very difficult.

[Levin]

I get 30 out of 40 on an exam. Do I pass? My schools are very difficult.
Could you repeat that? I don't think I quite understood it the first time.

[BallaActuary]

Could you repeat that? I don't think I quite understood it the first time.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Haha, I think he is referring to this post:

http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=67732

[WWSituation]

Actuary is a damned good field. Where else can anti-social nerds (not saying everybody but consider even just the minority who are really anti-social) make six figures (not what it used to be - check thread in careers) and work 9-5?

It also enables more ambitious people to be either entrepenuers and/or executives and make a lot more money. I'd say that is a pretty good field, especially if you want to ignore the hell that is being a student.

Doctors work 100 hours a week for their 1st 4 years making only 40K and then are saddled with debt. Think doctors make what they used to? As an OBGYN on the eastern seaboard.

[BallaActuary]

She works 8 hours a day and makes the same amount of money as I do. When she comes home from work though, she gets to watch t.v. I get to study. I think her future compensation prospects are very good as well.

That's what I hate too. Fortunately, my wife got a second job (doing something she likes - no dirty comments people) and we cancelled our cable and internet. So, basically we live in a black hole, but it's amazing how much more studying I get done.

you aren't an actuary

I'm working on it..

[Salzmann]

Actuary is a damned good field. Where else can anti-social nerds (not saying everybody but consider even just the minority who are really anti-social) make six figures (not what it used to be - check thread in careers) and work 9-5?

It also enables more ambitious people to be either entrepenuers and/or executives and make a lot more money. I'd say that is a pretty good field, especially if you want to ignore the hell that is being a student.

Doctors work 100 hours a week for their 1st 4 years making only 40K and then are saddled with debt. Think doctors make what they used to? Ask an OBGYN on the eastern seaboard.

I agree. My sister is an OB/Gyn and she's squeezed between the high costs of her med mal coverage and BC/BS' stingy reimbursement rates in her area. (They have a near-monopoly there- you don't accept BC/BS, you don't get patients.) I don't worry about either of these, and no one calls me at 3 AM 'cause they're in labor.

A lot of what makes a "top job" is subjective. A forest ranger who loves the outdoors might consider an actuarial job to be a nightmare.

All in all, I've been very happy in this field and would choose it again. The funny thing is that my son, whom I've always encouraged to pursue his own interests, decided to major in Math in college. Now he's thinking about Actuarial Science. We'll see what happens.

[HangerAngler]

My wife is an engineer and her salary, bonuses, and retirement benefits are much more/better than mine. She doesn't have the stress of the exams and I'd label her job security as very good. If anything, my job security is worse because if I don't pass exams, I get fired. People get rewarded not for how much they do for their company, but how much study time they can take during work hours and pass exams. I know mortgage brokers and realtors who make substantially more money than I ever will. There are presidents and VP's who started as claims people or are in things like marketing that make very nice salaries.


Of course actuary won't sound so good when you are hand-picking examples of superiority to compare it to.

[BallaActuary]

Of course actuary won't sound so good when you are hand-picking examples of superiority to compare it to.

I was giving examples of why I wouldn't place it as 1 or 2 - maybe number 10 or so. Certainly there are a great number of jobs worse than actuarial, but there are more than 0 or 1 careers better than it.

[Loner]

You have to realize there is a certain amount of self-selection going on in these surveys.
For example, I would be absolutely MISERABLE in a sales type position, and likely quite unsuccessful at it, as I don;t like having to deal with people, be peppy all the time, lie, etc. And I imagine a fair percentage of the people on this board would feel the same way.
But because there are more sales/marketing jobs than actuarial jobs, a lot more people who are not suited to that profession wind up doing it, driving down the survey results.

[sticks1839]

All in all, I've been very happy in this field and would choose it again. The funny thing is that my son, whom I've always encouraged to pursue his own interests, decided to major in Math in college. Now he's thinking about Actuarial Science. We'll see what happens.

My father was the same way with me, but I followed in his footsteps into this field because of the life I saw him provide for our family. He's a true old timer (FCAS since '67), and worked many years as the Chief Actuary for an insurance company making very good money back before anyone really knew what an actuary was. I was born late in his life (he was 47), and as far as I can remember he was retired from that position but worked part time as a consultant and still made over 100K a year and still does by choice at age 69. Money just never was an issue growing up and because of the less demanding nature of actuarial work(especially his work from home consulting), he was always around to coach sports, help with homework, or just be around. I, like many people, didn't realize the stress of the exam process until I finally entered the work world 7 months ago because school was always easy. I do hate to tell my friends that I need to study and can't do this or that, but I figure if I can do it right the first time through missing more nights out than I'd like, then I can be done with exams by 25 and have the rest of my life to reap the rewards.

[Moe Szyslak]

Am I the only one that thinks exams are easy?
No.

[thtevie]

Am I the only one that thinks exams are easy?

No. But your group tend to drive up the "Effective Passing" percentage.

[Westley]

Am I the only one that thinks the watered-down preliminary exams are easy?IFYQ. No.

[no]

I know some (many?) think actuarial exams are difficult; this is the reason:

North American (NA) university students graduate with high grades not
because they work hard; their teachers made it easy. The NA university
(at least the undergrad education) system is teaching evaluation driven;
give difficult exams you are a bad teacher; tell a few dumb (old) jokes,
give easy exams then you are the greatest teacher.

With that background no wonder they think actuarial exams are difficult.

[WWSituation]

I know some (many?) think actuarial exams are difficult; this is the reason:

North American (NA) university students graduate with high grades not
because they work hard; their teachers made it easy. The NA university
(at least the undergrad education) system is teaching evaluation driven;
give difficult exams you are a bad teacher; tell a few dumb (old) jokes,
give easy exams then you are the greatest teacher.

With that background no wonder they think actuarial exams are difficult.

Generalize much?

[BallaActuary]

I know some (many?) think actuarial exams are difficult; this is the reason:

North American (NA) university students graduate with high grades not
because they work hard; their teachers made it easy. The NA university
(at least the undergrad education) system is teaching evaluation driven;
give difficult exams you are a bad teacher; tell a few dumb (old) jokes,
give easy exams then you are the greatest teacher.

With that background no wonder they think actuarial exams are difficult.

I disagree with your statement. I went to a school with an actuarial science program and got A's in classes that were jokes. I've had no problems with the first 3 exams (1,2 and M.. not P, FM, and M). I think the exams are more inconvenient than anything (certainly that could change once I start on the upper level CAS exams).


Originally Posted by silverfox
Am I the only one that thinks the watered-down preliminary exams are easy?

IFYQ. No.

I agree that P, FM (especially), and the VEE's are jokes. I don't think M & C have gotten easier since the last syllabi revision.

[Westley]

I agree that P, FM (especially), and the VEE's are jokes. I don't think M & C have gotten easier since the last syllabi revision.

I think that Silverfox has only passed the first two, which is why I addressed my comment to him. Not sure about M&C, but it used to get a lot harder after the first two. Historically, anybody with a decent college background in math & statistics could pass the first two exams pretty easily. Then, you got people talking about how easy the exams are. Then, they discover reality.

[silverfox]

For the record, I have P, FM, and M. The VEEs are a given.

[Bühlmann]

I know some (many?) think actuarial exams are difficult; this is the reason:

North American (NA) university students graduate with high grades not
because they work hard; their teachers made it easy. The NA university
(at least the undergrad education) system is teaching evaluation driven;
give difficult exams you are a bad teacher; tell a few dumb (old) jokes,
give easy exams then you are the greatest teacher.

With that background no wonder they think actuarial exams are difficult.

Whatever man. I have a co-worker who has a Ph.D. and he's failed exams. They are hard for most people. Easy for some, but not most.

[Westley]

I don't care what you say, it's still a lot better than last place: crack whore.

[Jables]

I don't care what you say, it's still a lot better than last place: crack whore.

RN

Actually that was last year's worst job.

It was replaced this year by crack whore trainee...

[Dr T Non-Fan]

I know some (many?) think actuarial exams are difficult; this is the reason:

North American (NA) university students graduate with high grades not
because they work hard; their teachers made it easy. The NA university
(at least the undergrad education) system is teaching evaluation driven;
give difficult exams you are a bad teacher; tell a few dumb (old) jokes,
give easy exams then you are the greatest teacher.

With that background no wonder they think actuarial exams are difficult.


Also, you North Americans have such large penises. Our penises, so small.

.

[Levin]

I know some (many?) think actuarial exams are difficult; this is the reason:

North American (NA) university students graduate with high grades not
because they work hard; their teachers made it easy. The NA university
(at least the undergrad education) system is teaching evaluation driven;
give difficult exams you are a bad teacher; tell a few dumb (old) jokes,
give easy exams then you are the greatest teacher.

With that background no wonder they think actuarial exams are difficult.
So, No, how many of these easy exams have you pulled down?

[Westley]

RN

Actually that was last year's worst job.

It was replaced this year by crack whore trainee...

RN

Actually, it's assistant crack whore.

[tommie frazier]

will it get you on the cover of crack whore magazine?

[BallaActuary]

cuz being good with Excel gets the chicks.

I don't care what you say, it's still a lot better than last place: crack whore.


Are these the kind of chicks Excel pulls in?

[sundwarf]

Your wife might make more money now but that will change once you are fully credentialed. Engineering salaries top out much faster than actuarial salaries, as far as I can tell. The hard part seems to be getting your FSA/FCAS, but after that, for the amount of work and stress that seems involved, the salary is very, very good IMO.

Most engineers will never see the $120-$180k per year salaries many FSA/FCASs get. If you want to make more money than your wife, the path is fairly clear cut..pass more exams.

I have only been in this career for about a year. If I keep passing exams, within a year I should be making more money than my engineering friends who have been in the field 5+ years. Within 2-3 years, my salary should be substantially higher than theirs (assuming, of course, that I keep passing and that they don't file some bling bling patents).

Ditto. With 3 exams passed, my salary is on par with engineers with around the same experience (ie, entry level...)

[sundwarf]

RN

Actually, it's assistant crack whore.

What about the assistant to the assistant?

[The Drunken Actuary]

Since I was in college, I've always heard that being an actuary was ranked in the top 5 for the best job to have. Now that I've been in this career for a couple of years, I'm wondering why it's ranked so high. Don't get me wrong, I really like the work I do as an actuary, but I don't think I'd list it as a "top job".
The only advantage to the career is the ability to promote yourself as quickly as you can pass exams. Other than that, what do you think?
My wife is an engineer and her salary, bonuses, and retirement benefits are much more/better than mine. She doesn't have the stress of the exams and I'd label her job security as very good. If anything, my job security is worse because if I don't pass exams, I get fired. People get rewarded not for how much they do for their company, but how much study time they can take during work hours and pass exams. I know mortgage brokers and realtors who make substantially more money than I ever will. There are presidents and VP's who started as claims people or are in things like marketing that make very nice salaries.
I guess my point is that for the education requirement, time spent taking exams, and lack of real job security, the compensation isn't what it should be compared to many other careers.
So, what are the reasons you think it's such a great career?It's the sense of belonging and elitism you get as an actuary. I'll take your word for it, I guess, that those people make more money than actuaries. Though I think that's rare. Everyone here knows actuaries make more money than just about anyone else. But even if there are a few people that make more, it's just because they are lucky. Actuaries are smarter than them. The best part about being an actuary is this: You make tons of cash by busting your ass studying for exams, thus proving you are worthy and smarter than everyone else in any other profession. We know it, even if they don't, and that simple fact brings us inner peace and the ultimate satisfaction that no one else can ever have. We are actuaries.

[Animal]

It's the sense of belonging and elitism you get as an actuary. I'll take your word for it, I guess, that those people make more money than actuaries. Though I think that's rare. Everyone here knows actuaries make more money than just about anyone else. But even if there are a few people that make more, it's just because they are lucky. Actuaries are smarter than them. The best part about being an actuary is this: You make tons of cash by busting your ass studying for exams, thus proving you are worthy and smarter than everyone else in any other profession. We know it, even if they don't, and that simple fact brings us inner peace and the ultimate satisfaction that no one else can ever have. We are actuaries.

Dude, how drunk are you?

[The Drunken Actuary]

Dude, how drunk are you?Me? Nonsense. Did you see the thread in this section about working for a non-actuary? That's preposterous. Actuaries should never be subjected to such degradation.

[BallaActuary]

It's the sense of belonging and elitism you get as an actuary. I'll take your word for it, I guess, that those people make more money than actuaries. Though I think that's rare. Everyone here knows actuaries make more money than just about anyone else. But even if there are a few people that make more, it's just because they are lucky. Actuaries are smarter than them. The best part about being an actuary is this: You make tons of cash by busting your ass studying for exams, thus proving you are worthy and smarter than everyone else in any other profession. We know it, even if they don't, and that simple fact brings us inner peace and the ultimate satisfaction that no one else can ever have. We are actuaries.

Aren't you an underwriter?

[The Drunken Actuary]

Aren't you an underwriter?You can't believe everything you read on the internet.

[Bermuda Onion]

That was beautiful

[tommie frazier]

added strength to that post in that it comes from a bermudian, working in bermuda, who still recommends finishing the exams.

[kpd]

that was simply amazing..

[BallaActuary]

IFMSL

[Maxprime]

It's the sense of belonging and elitism you get as an actuary. I'll take your word for it, I guess, that those people make more money than actuaries. Though I think that's rare. Everyone here knows actuaries make more money than just about anyone else. But even if there are a few people that make more, it's just because they are lucky. Actuaries are smarter than them. The best part about being an actuary is this: You make tons of cash by busting your ass studying for exams, thus proving you are worthy and smarter than everyone else in any other profession. We know it, even if they don't, and that simple fact brings us inner peace and the ultimate satisfaction that no one else can ever have. We are actuaries.

Inside Elitism: Yes
Outside Elitism: No (nobody knows/cares what an actuary is)

"He's a doctor" has a lot more appeal than "He's an actuary" to almost any human being on the planet (even actuaries).

Make more money than just about everyone else? Yes
People that make more are "lucky"? No - lots of people make more money than actuaries that are not lucky to be in their positions.

[Maxprime]

But without ACAS or FCAS, financial markets don’t care how great an idea you have and won’t support it. With ACAS/FCAS….trust me, from personal experience, the world is your oyster and the investors will listen, because baby, NUMBERS TALK!!!


There are a few threads that talk about how nobody outside the actuarial/insurance world knows/cares about what an FSA/FCAS/ASA/ACAS is.

I'm not knocking it in the least - it's a huge accomplishment that I would say is on par with attaining a PhD. But, to say that the financial markets (meaning VC's or corporate issuances I guess?) would pick one idea over another simply because the guy has his letters is simply not true.

[SirVLCIV]

As much as I would love being 'rich', I just like the fact that once credentialed, you're essentially 'safe'. Comfort and stability are rather important.

[WWSituation]

As much as I would love being 'rich', I just like the fact that once credentialed, you're essentially 'safe'. Comfort and stability are rather important.

Safety is a myth. You are only as safe as you make yourself. I know a lot of FSAs who have been laid off - it's really not unheard of anymore.

It never hurts to get credentialed, but don't think that that makes for permanent job security.

[MarsLasar]

Nice post Bermi.
I'll add you to the list of "people from the AO I'd like to have a beer with."

[Maxprime]

Safety is a myth. You are only as safe as you make yourself. I know a lot of FSAs who have been laid off - it's really not unheard of anymore.

It never hurts to get credentialed, but don't think that that makes for permanent job security.

While FSA's get laid off, they don't have any trouble finding a new job. As they say, "Everybody needs actuaries." Of course, I'm being facetious - but few jobs have headhunters call you at work to ask if you'd consider leaving.

[SharksFan08]

Nice post Bermi.
I'll add you to the list of "people from the AO I'd like to have a beer with."

Do you have a list of "people from the AO I'd like to have 10 beers with"? Cause it sounds like Bermi parties too hard to be limited to one.

[tommie frazier]

in bermuda, 10 is assumed.

[MarsLasar]

Do you have a list of "people from the AO I'd like to have 10 beers with"? Cause it sounds like Bermi parties too hard to be limited to one.

Yes, this goes without saying.

[The Drunken Actuary]

It's been a long time for me since I've posted on this forum, mainly due to the fact that I haven't taken an exam in 2 years. It's fitting that I should return to such a question.

I stopped taking exams exactly for the reasons mentioned by Balla. I busted my a$$ in university getting an honors degree with a 90+ average and finishing in the top 4 of one of the toughest courses of study at my university – Actuarial Sciences and Statistics. I finished with 1 exam, secured a job on my home island - the beautiful Bermuda - and then proceeded to pass 2, 3, 4 back to back.

After that, I decided to take a sitting off to enjoy summer and spend a bit of the dough I had made and saved. Well, many to date say this was a huge mistake and is the reason I haven't taken an exam since, and the reason I will never be able to finish…LOL, I love the critics. That’s half the reason I chose this profession because they all said it was impossible. I gave em 1,2,3,4 back to back and I still have critics.

Anyway, the true reason I stopped taking exams is mathematically, statistically, economically, and actuarially derived. It is simple, the opportunity cost of taking the exams became too high - i had to stop. My original equation stated that the reward for my time was well worth it when compared to every other profession. Then I actually got into the business and saw that was FAR from the case. I worked alongside an analyst who had been in the industry 2 years, done nothing but party his entire life, get a few breaks because of who he was, and this guy made maybe 50% more then the kid with 4 exams. His job – to edit data to put into a generic model. That’s it, I learned how to do it in 2 months, and this guy was going further, making more, having the most fun I’ve seen in some time, and bottom line, he wasn’t stressed at all. I wanted that life!!

That’s when I decided, time to pack up the exams and do the business thing. I basically stopped studying and realized that there was 2 days in 1 day after removing my study regime. So I spent ½ of my study time in the office doing extra work, and the other half partying…and man did I party.

Well, I learned a ton, and now have gone full circle – I will be taking and passing exams back to back from november. The bottom line is this. The career itself is great – once you’ve finished. You make a ton of money, have great security, and basically you are the man/woman. Based on what you want as a person, with an actuarial qualification, the sky really is the limit. Many actuaries choose to sit behind a computer and get paid to not have much social interaction. But the key word I’ve mentioned is CHOICE. If you learn one skill well and are promoted for that one skill, you will eventually be pigeon-holed unless you become the boss – and we all know how easy it is to become the boss. But you never will be pigeon-holed as a qualified actuary unless you CHOOSE to be.

Heck, at 24, I have 4 exams, have taken 2 years off, had the wildest parties with the wildest people, and I’m now moving (for a ton more) to a new company where they’ll pay me to take exams. The beauty of it, once I finish, I get to retire – at 27/28!! I have used my numerical skills to conquer another industry….real estate. That’s the beauty of our profession. We know numbers and business, which means in every other industry other then insurance/reinsurance, we probably are more qualified then anyone to run the show (assuming we spend the same amount of time as we do on ONE exam breaking down the dynamics of the industry of choice) - regardless of age. I CHOSE real estate (only cause I want to be like Magellan!), but I could have chosen anything with the skill set I have thus far – and succeeded. Heck, I price 300mil of premium a year…so everything else is small change.

But the bottom line is this. Without the qualification, you don’t have many options. Your wife got a bit lucky, because I know many an engineer that find it hard to even secure a job. On average, actuarial students are far superior then engineering students – in terms of compensation and opportunity at each stage. Anomalies occur, that’s part of life. People who are less qualified do sometimes make a ton more. But if you’re going to cry about every anomaly you see, you’re wasting good time where you could be spending on conquering your universe.

At the end of the day, you need no qualifications to conquer – as seen by your claims people becoming VPs (happens here too), but the actuarial route for many is perfect, because there is NO RISK. You will always be employed and making decent money, even if you can’t do ANYTHING else but read a book. But the greatest thing about the profession is that, if you take every skill you learn, from the grueling examination process (which is a consequence of a no risk profession), the share dedication, motivation, and hard work that is necessary, and also pay attention to everything surrounding you in the office, my hypothesis is simple –

Given that every person can evaluate exactly what it is he/she wants and desires in life, the most beautiful thing about this profession to me is as an actuary, I have the toolset, the intelligence, the ability to produce a structure that gives me the highest probability of attaining my greatest desires, one that can be audited and evaluated almost in a live fashion.

But without ACAS or FCAS, financial markets don’t care how great an idea you have and won’t support it. With ACAS/FCAS….trust me, from personal experience, the world is your oyster and the investors will listen, because baby, NUMBERS TALK!!!

Given everything I’ve said, you should no longer be asking why be an actuary, the more important question I’d like you to ponder is – How big can you really think? And the path derived to reach the answer to the last question I posed is easier to figure out....as an actuary.My BS meter is going off big time. You conquered real estate because you're good with numbers? What does that mean? If you're that good at real estate in Bermuda why the hell would you go take more exams? I guess the rest of the world better watch out because an army of introverts is soon going to take over every industry!

Actuaries are so full of themselves. The work is excruciatingly boring, not especially difficult or challenging, and yet because the exam process is so stringent they feel like they are the smartest people on the planet and their work is actually important. Any half witted underwriter could set a reserve or rate or whatever just as well as an FCAS, imo. I know plenty of people that gave up on exams but were far superior in many ways to the average FSA. They all went on to be very succussful in non-actuarial jobs.

[MarsLasar]

Actuaries are so full of themselves.

Paradox of the day...

[CalculatinFool]

Actuaries are so full of themselves. The work is excruciatingly boring, not especially difficult or challenging, and yet because the exam process is so stringent they feel like they are the smartest people on the planet and their work is actually important. Any half witted underwriter could set a reserve or rate or whatever just as well as an FCAS, imo. I know plenty of people that gave up on exams but were far superior in many ways to the average FSA. They all went on to be very succussful in non-actuarial jobs.


DING DING DING! Bingo! Thank God someone sees it my way, too. Right on!

a definition from another non-actuarial forum:
actuary: someone who does mind-numbingly dull work that accountants should be doing in an insurance company or consulting firm hiding behind a veil of higher mathematical knowledge that hypothetically gives them the almighty power to figure out if the company will be able to pay its future liablities

[Bermuda Onion]

Any half witted underwriter could set a reserve or rate or whatever just as well as an FCAS, imo.

As an FCAS in an audit position, I occasionally see a reserve report conducted by a PhD or some other yokel who has gotten approved by the BMA. 100% of these reports are woefully inadequete. Luckily the BMA has stopped giving such approvals.

Your statements may be true for repetitive grunt work or fill in the blank spreadsheet jobs, but these shouldn't be conducted by fellows anyway. Maybe it is different on the life side. A complex 100 page health care reserve review should be completed by someone who is intimately familiar with generally accepted actuarial methods and understand every aspect of what is going on. When the company ends up in court, or has to justify itself to the IRS, or to its shareholders, there is a huge liability for having some underwriter who doesn't understand the difference between report year and policy year attempting to defend his "actuarial" review.

JMO

[Money]

My BS meter is going off big time. You conquered real estate because you're good with numbers? What does that mean? If you're that good at real estate in Bermuda why the hell would you go take more exams? I guess the rest of the world better watch out because an army of introverts is soon going to take over every industry!

Actuaries are so full of themselves. The work is excruciatingly boring, not especially difficult or challenging, and yet because the exam process is so stringent they feel like they are the smartest people on the planet and their work is actually important. Any half witted underwriter could set a reserve or rate or whatever just as well as an FCAS, imo. I know plenty of people that gave up on exams but were far superior in many ways to the average FSA. They all went on to be very succussful in non-actuarial jobs.

The wisest post on this thread came from a drunk. Bermi’s post did make things sound great. It’s kind of like seeing the life a surgeon without his past, or his hours worked (you can think of a better example). I don’t know if I agree with the half witted underwriter comment (gotta keep some arrogance), but this post speaks wonders. I have TREMENDOUS respect for people with credentials but all of the comments of people hiding behind them can make a person wonder. Things happen and people get canned when they don’t have more to rely on. I am not saying that the frequency is high or medium, probably very small, but there has to be more to being an actuary than relying on the letters and getting paid very well.

[Alto Reed on a Tenor Sax]

When the company ends up in court, or has to justify itself to the IRS, or to its shareholders, there is a huge liability for having some underwriter who doesn't understand the difference between report year and policy year attempting to defend his "actuarial" review.

JMO

There's a DIFFERENCE?!!?

Jesus Christ, am I in trouble!

[Happy Spiaggia]

IF non credentialed folks can do the work of credentialed folks, the market will take care of it. Besides signing an opinion, many "actuarial" jobs aren't that actuarial or require any letters.

I have met plenty of useless credentialed actuaries (ones who passed some exams and that is it); conversely the best business minded people I know are actuaries who have the technical talent as well as the business acumen.

[Maxprime]

My BS meter is going off big time. You conquered real estate because you're good with numbers? What does that mean? If you're that good at real estate in Bermuda why the hell would you go take more exams? I guess the rest of the world better watch out because an army of introverts is soon going to take over every industry!


That's apparently the way us "smarter" way to do things - conquer an industry and abandon it before reaping the longer term benefits of your hard work. I know a ton of realtors - being "good with numbers" matters precisely zero. You don't even have to figure out people's payments, you just have to read the price off the MLS printout.

Actuaries are so full of themselves. The work is excruciatingly boring, not especially difficult or challenging, and yet because the exam process is so stringent they feel like they are the smartest people on the planet and their work is actually important. Any half witted underwriter could set a reserve or rate or whatever just as well as an FCAS, imo. I know plenty of people that gave up on exams but were far superior in many ways to the average FSA. They all went on to be very succussful in non-actuarial jobs.

I always felt that a certain pride in passing exams was the hard work - you show that you can work normal/high hours and still study your tail off to pass a very tough exam. I am, by no means, a bright mathematician and can fully admit it. If someone was a great mathematician, they would be morons to waste their talent in the actuarial field - you rarely (read: almost never) use your skills. If you were a great mathematician, I think teaching at Harvard or being a superstar in the NSA would be slightly more rewarding.

[Maxprime]

My post was a little too long as it stood so I had to cut detail in some spots. The context of that comment had to do with securing investment backing to any entrepreneurial type endeavor. The point I was trying to make - and this comes directly from experience as I'm dealing with it now - is that an actuarial student majority of the time will find himself having to work in insurance/reinsurance while the actuary (ACAS, FCAS) has many more options, because with credentials, investors listen. I know this because I was told specifically to finish my exams and I would be given whatever I needed in my 2nd entrepreneurial endeavor. With 4 exams and no letters, this poses significantly more risk in the eyes of investors. Although I believe this to be wrong, it doesn't matter. They have the money and you're trying to get it, so if they recognize letters and you need their money, you better get them letters mate!

Unless you are trying to raise capital for an insurance/actuarial product, I guarantee that 95% of investors don't know what an actuary even is - let alone require one.

Example:
Me: "Hey there, angels, I need a few million bucks to open a financial firm (giving a lot here - could say a McDonald's)."
Them: "We love your proposal, but we feel like someone working in finance needs to be an actuary - do you have your letters?"
Me: "No, I still need the modules to get my ASA."
Them: "Well, thanks for stopping by."

Reality:
Them: "Do you have any experience in finance?"
Me: "I have been a credentialed actuary for 6 years."
Them: "What's an actuary?"
Me: "It's a math . . blah blah blah."
Them: "So what does being credentialed mean?"
Me: "I passed really hard exams, I mean really hard."
Them: "We don't care you passed some stupid exam - if you wanted to be in finance, why didn't you take the CFA or Series X?"
Me: "Mine were harder"
Them: "Have a nice day"

I suppose that if you were asking actuaries for capital, they might inquire. Otherwise, outside of insurance and other actuarial work - a VC would have to be a moron to require actuarial credentials. Anyone that tells you otherwise has never gone through the process of securing capital. In pitching ideas, I have never - not once, been asked if I was credentialed. I have, however, been asked many times what an actuary is.

[drctypea]

i think its hard to get into finance even with a cfa. without bona fide work experience i dont think anyone wants you even if you have the cfa credential.

[The Drunken Actuary]

As an FCAS in an audit position, I occasionally see a reserve report conducted by a PhD or some other yokel who has gotten approved by the BMA. 100% of these reports are woefully inadequete. Luckily the BMA has stopped giving such approvals.

Your statements may be true for repetitive grunt work or fill in the blank spreadsheet jobs, but these shouldn't be conducted by fellows anyway. Maybe it is different on the life side. A complex 100 page health care reserve review should be completed by someone who is intimately familiar with generally accepted actuarial methods and understand every aspect of what is going on. When the company ends up in court, or has to justify itself to the IRS, or to its shareholders, there is a huge liability for having some underwriter who doesn't understand the difference between report year and policy year attempting to defend his "actuarial" review.

JMOYou're making my point. Because someone isn't a 'credentialed actuary' his work is automatically suspect. Whether he passed a bunch of irrelevant exams 20 years ago really has nothing to do with whether he can write an complex 100 page health care reserve review. The SOA/CAS/etc have one purpose - market these exam-based credentials to the insurance world. So far they've been pretty successful but I think that may change. These exams have no inherent value, they only have perceived value. If that perception changes actuaries can kiss their artificially high salaries good-bye.

[Maxprime]

i think its hard to get into finance even with a cfa. without bona fide work experience i dont think anyone wants you even if you have the cfa credential.

A CFA with no experience is better than nothing - no golden ticket in by any means.

[The Matrix]

I know plenty of people that gave up on exams but were far superior in many ways to the average FSA.Except that they could not manage to accomplish what even the average FSAs did: the FSA. Right?They all went on to be very succussful in non-actuarial jobs.This is evidence? Could they say "Want fries with that?" in five languages? If they could not (or chose not to) be successful as actuaries, how does their subsequent success in another field "prove" that they should have been successful actuaries but were somehow overlooked?

Do you want your heart surgery performed by someone who does it all day, everyday, or someone who read about it last night after a round of golf before turning in at a Holiday Inn Express?

Some of what you say has merit, but some of this is plain idiocy.

[Bermuda Onion]

You're making my point. Because someone isn't a 'credentialed actuary' his work is automatically suspect. Whether he passed a bunch of irrelevant exams 20 years ago really has nothing to do with whether he can write an complex 100 page health care reserve review. The SOA/CAS/etc have one purpose - market these exam-based credentials to the insurance world. So far they've been pretty successful but I think that may change. These exams have no inherent value, they only have perceived value. If that perception changes actuaries can kiss their artificially high salaries good-bye.

You are reading much into some of my comments and twisting around the rest so I will not try to argue.

You seem like someone who has worked for and FSA less competent than you as well as struggled with exams. Sorry. You knew the rules when you signed up.

CFA signups are coming soon.

[HangerAngler]

I have used my numerical skills to conquer another industry….real estate.


What do you mean by this?

[The Drunken Actuary]

You seem like someone who has worked for and FSA less competent than youI've never worked for an actuary of any kind. And all of my bosses, with one glaring and notable exception, have been quite competent.

As for your comment on CFA exams, thanks, but I'm doing just fine doing what I'm doing.

[The Drunken Actuary]

Except that they could not manage to accomplish what even the average FSAs did: the FSA. Right?Couldn't or didn't. Does it matter? That was clear from my post. All your response does is prove my point about actuaries being elitist and thinking they are smarter than anyone else. Try talking to people outside the actuarial department. I bet there are some pretty smart sales guys in your organization. The CFO might know a thing or two about finances too.This is evidence? Could they say "Want fries with that?" in five languages?Possibly, but that wasn't the success I was referring to. If they could not (or chose not to) be successful as actuaries, how does their subsequent success in another field "prove" that they should have been successful actuaries but were somehow overlooked?I didn't say it did. This thread is about actuary being such a great profession. MY point is that the fact that you can pass exams is great because it guarantees you a nice income, but other professionals do just as well and better without the exam process.

[Moe Szyslak]

The exams have a place...they give someone exposure to different areas of finance that they would not normally get unless working in that specific position. They make credentialed actuaries knowledgeable in many areas, but that doesnt make them great in any one area unless they have the experience. Sure, anyone without letters can become really great at the job they do, probably better after a few years experience compared to an FSA who should know it all.

I find myself primarily dealing with Life Insurance liabilities. Occasionally I will have to take a look at the investment strategy that goes along with that plan. Without course 6 I would struggle to understand the basics of fixed income securities. After a few years I would pick up on everything and more than what the exam teaches, but right off the bat I can jump into a conversation about investments without ever having worked with them, or at least be able to keep up.

That is the value of the exams to an employer. They know that employee with letters will be able to come in and understand the job. They certainly have the option to hire a non-actuary with the specialty in the area, but what happens a few months down the line when they need someone to understand the mechanics of a different product? Unless that specialist has similar experience in that other area, he will be useless. If he does have that experience, you are going to have to pay him for it, just as much as a credentialed actuary. To hire him you have to jump into a more subjective hiring criteria. For the credentialed actuary, it is more clear cut. He will have the knowledge to do the job right away, or the background to pick up on things.

Letters and exams are an experience measure. Just take a look at the salary survey and you can see that an exam is worth about 1-2 years of experience. I think that seems accurate.

[Happy Spiaggia]

This is a good post by Moe. Exams don't guarantee anything. But having the FCAS or ACAS after your name strongly suggests the following:
1) A person who is smart and hardworking
2) A person who is technically sound and detail oriented
3) A person who has a broad and solid insurance knowlege
4) A person who has 5+ years of experience

Granted you can find counterexamples all over, but there is a strong correlation between letters and the characteristics listed above.

That is why we get paid more that underwriters. If it wasn't true the market will take care of it.

An interesting argument would be - if underwriters had to pass a set of rigerous exams, would they be as in demand as actuaries? Maybe - but my guess is no.

[MNBridge]

You're making my point. Because someone isn't a 'credentialed actuary' his work is automatically suspect. Whether he passed a bunch of irrelevant exams 20 years ago really has nothing to do with whether he can write an complex 100 page health care reserve review. The SOA/CAS/etc have one purpose - market these exam-based credentials to the insurance world. So far they've been pretty successful but I think that may change. These exams have no inherent value, they only have perceived value. If that perception changes actuaries can kiss their artificially high salaries good-bye.

Some people manage to pass the 'irrelevant' exams and find the work monotonous and boring. And not very difficult. Generally these people end up making some decent but not great money. In many cases for them Actuary is probably the #1 job, though not all. But I don't think they would in general do any better in another profession.

Others understand the concepts behind the exams and why they are not 'irrelevant'. They try to build on and question ideas that others have come up with. They look to improve the ideas proposed by others. The see the Actuaries role in business and risk-management. These people typically have challenging and exciting careers.
These people can make some very very good money if they so choose many teach (and they often have side gigs that pay very well), have close ties with management, and are a big reason that Actuary is listed as the #1 (or at least top 5) job.

[The Biz]

What's your opinion about needing a credentialed actuary to verify and sign off on GASB45, FAS106, and pension liabilities. Do you feel that anyone, regardless of their credentials, should have the right to do this type of work and get paid for it.

My opinion is, if you let just about anyone do this type of work how would you ever trust the validity of the numbers. Most of the time these are fairly large numbers that show up on company books and could easily be altered to falsify the financial appearance of the company. If you require a credentialed actuary who has dedicated a chunk of his life to the credentialing process while gaining valuable experience in these areas, then the numbers carry a lot more weight.

I am sure there are a lot of say nurses out there who work with physical therapist their whole life and may know a lot about physical therapy, but unless they have DPT, or PT initials next to there name then I wouldn't want them diagnosing any physical therapy for me.

[The Matrix]

Couldn't or didn't. Does it matter? That was clear from my post. All your response does is prove my point about actuaries being elitist and thinking they are smarter than anyone else. Try talking to people outside the actuarial department. I bet there are some pretty smart sales guys in your organization. The CFO might know a thing or two about finances too.
Blah blah blah blah blah. Who cares? Actuaries do not have a corner on elitism as you suggest. But your CFO might. Heck, the lady who runs our filing room gives the sun permission to rise, and doesn't mind reminding you either.

If they aren't cutting it as an actuary, then they aren't cutting it.
I don't really care how smart someone is or claims to be. I've met brilliant people in all walks of life. But that doesn't mean that I want them handling my legal or medical affairs.

[horace goldfarb]

Moe has a point. The exam process gives a standard benchmark by which to judge employees. You can fudge your resume, you can charm your way through an interview, but you can't fake passing 8 grueling exams in 4 years. Think about it. Every employer hedges themselves against hiring unqualified people. MD, MBA, CPA, CFA, the bar. Salesmen work on commission. TDA, when you mentioned the people who quit the exams but are sharper than the FSAs, how do you suggest they communicate this "sharpness" to a prospective employer? Employers can't, and don't care to, measure the intangibles. They want proof. But the FSA goes above and beyond because it standardizes everything. If you're an FSA, it doesn't matter where you went to school, or whether you worked for the biggest actuarial employer. If you have your FSA, along with a reasonable amount of experience in the field, you're almost undoubtedly qualified.

[Happy Spiaggia]

Exactly. Various parties need a qualification next to your name before you can do certain important things. The state, for example, wants to see an FCAS next to your name when you sign a loss reserve specialist opinion. It is an important enough job whereby it has been determined that qualifications are needed.

I bet there are plenty of folks who could prescribe me antiobiotics. I'll take the PhD thank you very much. I bet there are plenty of websites that could give me marginal legal advice. I take esq. please.

[Bermuda Onion]

Give that man an Irish car bomb!!

[Moe Szyslak]

This is a good post by Moe. Exams don't guarantee anything. But having the FCAS or ACAS after your name strongly suggests the following:
1) A person who is smart and hardworking
2) A person who is technically sound and detail oriented
3) A person who has a broad and solid insurance knowlege
4) A person who has 5+ years of experience

Granted you can find counterexamples all over, but there is a strong correlation between letters and the characteristics listed above.

In addition, that person may have 5+ years of experience, but the knowledge they have from the exams would give them the knowledge that someone who never took exams would have after 10-15 years of experience.

A 5 year credentialed actuary probably makes a similar salary to many other industry professionals with experience in the 10-15 year range.

[WWSituation]

What's your opinion about needing a credentialed actuary to verify and sign off on GASB45, FAS106, and pension liabilities. Do you feel that anyone, regardless of their credentials, should have the right to do this type of work and get paid for it.



Didn't that happen already? There have been a multitude of EAs who were just given the credential off of their experience. It happened at the inception of ERISA and again when the ASPA group had their members grandfathered as EAs. So if you are an EA then your governing body has answered the question for you as YES.

Actuaries are fast becoming among the least knowledgable pension professionals in the industry. Most bankers and analysts involved with pensions can estimate liabilities as good as any actuary does and run circles around them when it comes to strategy.

Having said that, EAs should be the only people allowed to sign off on liabilities. In addition, they should not be allowed to do anything else.

[HangerAngler]

Forget all the speculation.

Are you going to answer my post asking what you meant when you said you conquered the real estate industry? I'm not blasting you; I actually want to hear what you were referring to.

[The Drunken Actuary]

You guys are right. Nevermind.

[The Drunken Actuary]

I haven't conquered the real estate industry
Thank you for confirming that my BS meter is still working properly. This whole post is riddled with qualifiers that were noticeably absent from your first post.

[Happy Spiaggia]

You the man DRUNK!

RN

[The Drunken Actuary]

LOL, aight drunk. Spend your time improving your BS meter. Me, I have work to do. Like I said before, I love the critics....half the reason I chose this career. So WHEN I prove my model works, and WHEN I'm sitting back chillin' retired at 30, I'll give you a shout and see just how good your BS meter has gotten!! You the MAN DRUNK!!I wish you success. Let us know when you achieve some.

[HangerAngler]

Basically, All I've done is form a model (which is still in it's early stages) that in my opinion has the ability to assess real estate risk and also rank real estate endeavors. I work in property/cat, and with a company that has developed a portfolio which is accumulated daily - which I work on and work with.



It sounds like you need to make sure that something you produce [most importantly, the model you mentioned] be legally all yours. You don't want your employer having any legal footing to say "Bermi used our technology/training/time to develop that model, we own it" or some other devestating outcome.

Can you give an example of a direct application of your model? Or, more substantively, what sorts of endeavors does it work with? I'm interested to see if it could be useful in the real estate endeavors I participate in, which are almost exclusively very long term, hence having a long tail. Am I missing the point? Or reading too many points into it?

Maybe this would make more sense:
InvestorA has the option of purchasing one of two properties:
Property1, which is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath single-family detached home in a suburb of Austin, TX. The market rent for it is $1000, and its price is $140,000.
Property2, which is a 2 bedroom, 2 bath pre-construction condominium unit in a high-rise in DallasFW, TX. The market rent for it is $1150, adn the price is $175,000.

Is ranking these two options something your model works with? More high-level? Etc? Etc, etc?

[Maxprime]

It sounds like you need to make sure that something you produce [most importantly, the model you mentioned] be legally all yours. You don't want your employer having any legal footing to say "Bermi used our technology/training/time to develop that model, we own it" or some other devestating outcome.

Can you give an example of a direct application of your model? Or, more substantively, what sorts of endeavors does it work with? I'm interested to see if it could be useful in the real estate endeavors I participate in, which are almost exclusively very long term, hence having a long tail. Am I missing the point? Or reading too many points into it?

Maybe this would make more sense:
InvestorA has the option of purchasing one of two properties:
Property1, which is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath single-family detached home in a suburb of Austin, TX. The market rent for it is $1000, and its price is $140,000.
Property2, which is a 2 bedroom, 2 bath pre-construction condominium unit in a high-rise in DallasFW, TX. The market rent for it is $1150, adn the price is $175,000.

Is ranking these two options something your model works with? More high-level? Etc? Etc, etc?
Read your contract - what you develop while working for your employer is theirs unless you can PROVE in a court of law that all work was done on the outside - not a second on their time.

Aside from that - best of luck. I would like to note that thousands of models are made for multiple industries every day, but almost none are kept around.

[Maxprime]

Not at all. I've said too much as it stands already. My endeavors are short term, buy, build, sell. I prefer this because systems don't change much in the short term, especially economic systems. Thus, sales data, expected prices, costs are relatively stable.

I'm going to leave this topic now and no, i haven't taken anything from the office, other then what I have learned. No one holds rights to my work in real estate other then myself...

Buy, build, sell!? THAT'S GENIUS!!!

You've got all those stupid real estate millionaires in the palm of your hand - I can't wait to see their faces when you unleash this strategy!

[The Drunken Actuary]

Read your contract - what you develop while working for your employer is theirs unless you can PROVE in a court of law that all work was done on the outside - not a second on their time.

How do you know what his contract says?

If I build model airplanes at home but this one time I look something up about propeller from work than they have a right to all my model airplane business revenue?

[The Drunken Actuary]

Buy, build, sell!? THAT'S GENIUS!!!

You've got all those stupid real estate millionaires in the palm of your hand - I can't wait to see their faces when you unleash this strategy!You forgot about his model. He has a model.

[spotted cow]

I'll speak from the engineering side, since I are an enjeneer.

Engineering starting salaries are quite good, low 50's. Actuaries usually start out a little less.

Engineering tops out at about 85K, unless you are a specialist in high demand, or in management. Engineering managers typically make 80-120K, but those jobs are hard to get. So most engineers, even with 20 or 30 years experience make about 75-85K. There is not much we (they) can do to improve that.

Job security in the last 5-10 years has really gone downhill for engineering, of course it depends on the industry. Ask engineers at Ford or GM or Delphi, I'm sure they will agree. For me personally, I've been laid off twice in the last 4 years. If everything is made in China or coded in India, there's not much for engineers in the U.S. to do other than switch fields.

From what I can tell, if you can pass the exams, the actuarial field appears to be a good choice, however it is a lot of work. I've passed course 1 and FM so far, and I'm struggling getting going on M. I've got a pretty good engineering job right now, so that may make it harder to switch. Unless of course another layoff comes my way, which would not surprise me one bit.

That's my 1 Peso worth.

[HangerAngler]

Buy, build, sell!? THAT'S GENIUS!!!



Well his basic formula dominates the ones I have been failing with....

Buy, build, set on fire.
Buy, build, eat
Buy, tear down, sell
Buy, set on fire, sell
Borrow, tear down, walk away

:borg: :borg:

[Money]

Basically, All I've done is form a model (which is still in it's early stages) that in my opinion has the ability to assess real estate risk and also rank real estate endeavors. I work in property/cat, and with a company that has developed a portfolio which is accumulated daily - which I work on and work with.



So let me get something right. You have a model which a person told you that he will invest in when you get your letters which is a few years away.

He will invest in you even though real estate market is currently cooling down and will be very cold when you have became credentialed. However this is such a good plan that instead of making money now, he would rather wait so

A. Another investor might invest in you
B. See if he tanks in his other investments so he has a very risk free real estate investment
C. Can't think of much

Now this is using an assumption that the US has an influence in the Bermuda economy.

Why not talk to other investors. Then theres the whole part of which property are you investing in, how many points is the investor earning off of you, and how viable is your idea vs. the thousands of other ideas out there (i forgot you are smart). If your idea was so good why not take it to a bank. They hate real estate models and investments but maybe your idea is better.

You did put a lot of thought into your original post about why this career is great, but instead of hearing about the real estate part (not due to you, but people enjoying controversy) lets here about the partying part. How many bars a week did you go to. How did your social network increase. Being from Bermuda, did you party as much as the perception is or ..... I want stories.

Is it better to be lucky or smart?

[HangerAngler]

I'm reviewing the paperwork to buy my partners house in the next couple of weeks for 900K, which comes right back to us - a way to cleverly get the money from the bank. I have more then a few options to get the other 1.1, of course this will depend on what they want for the 1.1 and if I'm willing to give it. Either way, I obviously have to pay the mortgage on the 900K, which is in the region of 6K a month.


It sounds like your partner is actually the one providing the 900k then. Since you are buying the house, (which you omitted property taxes and insurance from right here...is there property tax in Bermuda?) and your partner will be the one clearing the 900k at closing (which assumes he has no current debt against the place and also ignores any taxes related to the sale...different in Bermuda maybe?), it looks like he(she?) is the one actually putting up 900k, not the bank. I'm guessing your partner thinks that is fair given that your model is the basis for your project, yes?

[HangerAngler]

Been to the bank - never going to happen. No, I said when I get my letters I get whatever I want. I have something already, but it's capped. I've talked to many an investor. I'm raising 2mil, then I get 8mil at a rate between 4-6%, just like a regular loan.


Who is loaning 8 million at a rate of 4-6%? They must be getting a controlling stake in the whole company to go with it, right?

[HangerAngler]

My partner is moving to manage our 3 companies with our 3rd partner, and his house soon to be my house (2 units) will rent for 7K (have a family ready to move into the main unit - small unit already rented for 1800)...which of course will only increase over time.


Be very wary about the tenants. What happens if the tenants don't pay their rent for 2 months?

One other thing...what kind of interest rate are you getting on the property given that it is an investment property? You aren't using it as a primary residence, so every lender I've ever dealt with would require a higher interest rate on the loan. Watch out that you aren't getting pulled into some loan fraud. There will be a clear paper trail on that, and when you are clutching a few million, who would feel bad about threatening to turn you in for loan fraud?....unless of course you share some money.

[Money]

Been to the bank - never going to happen. No, I said when I get my letters I get whatever I want. I have something already, but it's capped. I've talked to many an investor. I'm raising 2mil, then I get 8mil at a rate between 4-6%, just like a regular loan.

I'm reviewing the paperwork to buy my partners house in the next couple of weeks for 900K, which comes right back to us - a way to cleverly get the money from the bank. I have more then a few options to get the other 1.1, of course this will depend on what they want for the 1.1 and if I'm willing to give it. Either way, I obviously have to pay the mortgage on the 900K, which is in the region of 6K a month. My partner is moving to manage our 3 companies with our 3rd partner, and his house soon to be my house (2 units) will rent for 7K (have a family ready to move into the main unit - small unit already rented for 1800)...which of course will only increase over time.

Thus, I am in no rush when the 900K comes through as the rent pays the mortgage plus enough extra for my convertible, so I don't have to compromise for the extra 1.1. I have to figure out if I prefer partnership or another loan type option. With partnership, we're all on the hook for the 8mil. With another loan, it's all me on the hook for 9.1. I'm in the process of getting a ton of data from my 3rd partner on location. That will determine the route i take for the 1.1...and thats all i have to say about this. Definitely alot of debt, no doubt, but in 2 years when the 10mil turns to 16mil, no one will remember the method, they'll only see profits. The structure is there, all that's left to do is figure out every possible hole and get the corresponding data...and I have THE MAN in the right place with access to it all, who will send it as I ask for it....

Better to be lucky for sure...but I'm not, so I have no choice but to try and be smart.

I might be reading this wrong or to fast, but it sounds more like you are becoming a land lord (or you and your partners are) rather than a real estate investor with a model. That would allow you to borrow money at a rate of 4-6 points b/c you are taking out mortgages. Real Estate projects with development etc borrow at a rate of 12-21 points. There have been a few people I know that have increased their worth with becoming a commercial/homeowner land lords when the market was down. They have done extremely well. Unless I am mistaken you plan on continuing to be an actuary when you get your letters or that you would be the person in charge of the properties. You answered these questions, but what happened to the questions about the PARTYING

[The Drunken Actuary]

But trust me, had they gotten the financing before, they all would have cleaned up. Heck, I was working for them for free until the backstabbing began. I just stepped up to the plate. From janitor to CEO....Is anyone else confused by all of this?

Just what exactly is your role? First you tell us you used your skills to conquer the real estate industry. Then you tell us you haven't actually done that, but you will because of this terrific model you've developed. Now you tell us if your partners had secured financing previous to your arrival they would have 'cleaned up'. So what exactly are you bringing to this endeavor?

[JMO]

Is anyone else confused by all of this?

Not any more. My troll-dar has been going off big time ever since bermi started "explaining" his RE expertise.

[The Drunken Actuary]

Not any more. My troll-dar has been going off big time ever since bermi started "explaining" his RE expertise.:tup:

[HangerAngler]

Oh, and keep the questions coming. It only helps me to validate and improve my business plan!!! Thanks Hanger.



I'll ask as long as I can think of them. I'm glad it helps your plan...my consulting bill for you is in the mail. :borg:

So for the purposes of buy/selling real estate in Bermuda, are you or your partner (or your third partner) or your company going to be considered Bermudians or non-Bermudians [w.r.t. Bermuda's laws about real property transfers]?

[HangerAngler]

Not a landlord at all. I don't know how or why I was able to find a rate of 4-6%, but I assume it's because of duration. The loan is 30years, but I can pay it off at any point without penalty. 42 villas is the current plan, but I think I might go for 2 projects with maybe 15 each, more expensive, more exclusive, less to sell. 12-21 points would be on a short term loan for 1 project. This isn't a project, the 8mil is the debt part of a company which has 3 sub companies.

You are talking about building in Bermuda, right?

[HangerAngler]

My partner here is bermudian. The sale of the house looks just like any other sale of a house. The only difference is that we've made a side agreement in writing on the side to take the money that the bank provides and use it as capital for our business endeavor. As far as the bank is concerned, I'm just buying his house....

And you are non-Bermudian? If so, then aren't there 22% surcharges on real property purchases you make? And I thought the government there restricted real property purchases by non-Bermudians to the most expensive 5% of properties on the island...starting sometime in 2005. I don't remember all the details right now.

[Woodrow]

Not any more. My troll-dar has been going off big time ever since bermi started "explaining" his RE expertise.

Depends on what you mean by troll. He believes everything he's saying. Don't you have any MBA friends?

He has a plan. If it works he will make out like a bandit, whether it was a good plan or not. If it fails it will be due to circumstances beyond his controll.

[Woodrow]

You, like everyone else, wants the money to be in the bank to judge success.

I wonder why everybody does that?
Actually, I can think of an energy company in Houston that booked expected profits.

I do it actuarially, on an expected basis.

With an expected probability of success of 99%. No, let's make that 98% to be conservative. Something could go wrong, but that's unlikely.

Chase your dreams man, that's more than I'm doing. But you're doing yourself a disservice if you think it's succeeded before it has.

[Money]

I want one of the answers to the thread's question

I WANT PICTURES

[The Sad Man]

It's a place where real estate is going insane...which of course I won't be sharing with the general public. Some things are strictly confidential....

Oh, you must mean Costa Rica. That hot secret was revealed to me in a private email from someone who also wanted to go into business. I would have done it but I have too much invested already in this other secret which also came privately to me in an email. It should net me over $1M.


Company Name : Dark Dynamite, Inc.
S t o c k : D K D Y Timing is everything!
Profits of 200-500 % EXPECTED
Today : $1.58
Expected Target : $5 - $8
Market Performance : 10(10)

Remember this is a S T R O N G B U Y RECOMMENDATION

[Levin]

The bravado I'm hearing here reminds me of the stuff you hear from people who claim to have squared the circle. "I have the right answer, and people just haven't yet appreciated my efforts. I've figured it out, and I'll get mine eventually." Or the people who know that some multi-level marketing scheme is going to make them rich. Or the people that are waiting for time to turn around and make them not fumble that ball on the one-yard line in the state championship so everyone can realize them for the All-Pro running back they really are.

You say you've measured your success actuarially, on an expected basis. I donna think this word means what you think it means. Are you saying that people who have made ventures like yours on average succeed? I don't think the data supports this.

Here's my independent advice, Bermi; take it or leave it. You have convinced yourself that you have already succeeded. You are the President. You are the CEO. You've conquered the industry "from a certain point of view." I admire your gutsiness to break out on your own. But the people I know who have made their own businesses work don't delude themselves into thinking it's all going to come together next week. They work hard and recognize that things may turn sour. They accept that and do their best to hedge against it. Just don't get abused by the people who will see greatness in your idea, and realize that they can chew you up and spit you out because you are so full of yourself that you believe their flatteries and promises.

[Levin]

I have my dad who has my back.
Regardless whether you become a bajillionaire, this is worth it.

no were near as good looking though :-)
Respectfully disagree.

This has really just been blown right out proportion....
You realize that you are "coming back" on the heels of Matt the Skywalker who made some crazy sounding claims that ended up being true, as well as Gay Actuary and Cameron Crazy who have some people's troll-dar turned on pretty high. And one of the most prolific posters has been absent. Incredulity is running high.

We like our nice, stable lives. Our nice, stable jobs that for some reason or another we haven't been fired from despite spending more time than we will ever admit on this stupid discussion forum. To have someone come in and say that you can do more than this, well, as well as reminding us of some crazy people we've known, disturbs us a little. And we will probably have to kill you.:wink:

[The Drunken Actuary]

If you're going to dig into me, you have to do better then you're currently doing.I think I'm doing pretty well considering you feel the need to keep defending your statements and now you've started with the personal attacks on me. My statements all have been consistent.Except for the one where you said you conquered the real estate industry and the other one where you said you didn't.

[HangerAngler]

...

Did you go to Austin seminar for C4 in spring 2004?

[MarsLasar]

How do you manage to work harder than everyone else if you are partying all the time? How do you find time to post?

Also, why are you going to continue with exams? They don't seem relevant in view of your business strategy.

[HangerAngler]

Yep, that was me! and I returned from Vegas 9 days before the exam....passed by 1 question. It would have been a pass by 5 questions if I hadn't gone to vegas, maybe even 6!

Ok, I know who you are then. It sounds like you studied exactly the right amount. Passing by 5 wouldn't get you any more than passing by 1. That is another discussion though.

I'd happily attempt to shoot holes in your plan at any point, though I realize your need for limited disclosure. Too bad your model couldn't be tested in my locale.

[Levin]

Drunk, I have no problems with you, but when I invite Hanger and Levin to party wit me and the girls on my boat...I just might have to leave you out.
This is a keeper. Levin gets invited to join in drunken debauchery, and TDA stays home.

[The Drunken Actuary]

Drunk, I have no problems with you, but when I invite Hanger and Levin to party wit me and the girls on my boat...I just might have to leave you out.OK, seriously, I didn't mean it. I was just joking, really. I thought you knew that. You knew I was joking....right?

[HangerAngler]

Drunk, I have no problems with you, but when I invite Hanger and Levin to party wit me and the girls on my boat...I just might have to leave you out.

I want to bring my dog.

[Levin]

I want to bring my dog.
Hey, TDA, looks like you're in! :tup:

[Happy Entrails]

:lol:

[Levin]

I have used my numerical skills to conquer another industry….real estate. That’s the beauty of our profession.
:bump:

Werewolf's post about Hillary (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?p=2681177#post2681177) reminded me of this thread.

[FormLetter]

bermi said he would come back in 6 months and post an update, but he never did.

[FormLetter]

I'm guessing the location for his project was one of Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, or Nicaragua.

[ShebaPoe]

Actuary is a damned good field. Where else can anti-social nerds (not saying everybody but consider even just the minority who are really anti-social) make six figures (not what it used to be - check thread in careers) and work 9-5?

It also enables more ambitious people to be either entrepenuers and/or executives and make a lot more money. I'd say that is a pretty good field, especially if you want to ignore the hell that is being a student.

Doctors work 100 hours a week for their 1st 4 years making only 40K and then are saddled with debt. Think doctors make what they used to? As an OBGYN on the eastern seaboard.

My g/f earned $390K last year (after insurance payments) in Florida as an OBGYN. She's 34. Her hours are awful when she is on call, which is about 1/3 of the time, and easy when she is not. The debt she did have, which was substantial, goes away pretty fast with her income.

She gets few vacations, but isn't killing herself. If she wants to have children, the practice will add another doc and she will go down to half-time and squeak by at $200K a year.

[GosuJohn]

My g/f earned $390K last year

That is incredibly sexy.

[remilard]

My g/f earned $390K last year (after insurance payments) in Florida as an OBGYN. She's 34. Her hours are awful when she is on call, which is about 1/3 of the time, and easy when she is not. The debt she did have, which was substantial, goes away pretty fast with her income.

She gets few vacations, but isn't killing herself. If she wants to have children, the practice will add another doc and she will go down to half-time and squeak by at $200K a year.

So what, I know some actuaries who made about that and know some actuaries who made more than that.

We can compare averages to averages or anecdotes to anecdotes but what is the point of comparing anecdotes to averages?

[ElDucky]

It's ranked high because Mercer handles the rankings! It's a scam!

[douglan]

That is incredibly sexy.

yah, too bad MTS made it up though

[General Apathy]

MONEY!

[BondGirl]

I love how BallaActuary can't afford cable or the internet....I honestly don't need tons of $$ but I want my own small house with all the amenities. Yup, I want a car, I want a computer with the internet, cable TV, I want furniture. I want to save money for retirement. Isn't 120K a year enough for that?

[Maine-iac]

Yep. I had all that stuff when single, on less than $120K, though if you inflation adjusted my salary at the time it was probably not a lot less.

Now that I am married and we are BOTH bringing in professional salaries and we have no kids, things are even easier, but I was pretty comfortable on a lower level actuarial salary on my own. (Yes, I did have to live in an apartment and save for a few years before I got my house, but not for THAT long. Six years from college graduation to first house, but I could have done it sooner had I not been waiting for an insane interest rate environment to calm down. I didn't want a mortgage until the rates fell to single digits. 9.975% on the first one and I was happy to get it.)

[tommie frazier]

maine-i,

interest rates that high are just things of fables. please don't scare the kids with a claim that it was a reality at anypoint in history for people still alive (or non-senile).

thx!

[Maine-iac]

maine-i,

interest rates that high are just things of fables. please don't scare the kids with a claim that it was a reality at anypoint in history for people still alive (or non-senile).

thx!

Hey, it worked out well for me! I invested my spare cash at the insane interest rates, then converted it to a down payment once things calmed. It was nifty to get double digit interest on my money-market account, especially since my employer at the time would pay you 1/3 of your salary in a lump sum on 1/1 if you so chose. (I remember our VP stopping by and saying that any of us who did not choose to take the option might want to re-think a career in finance. :) )Those were the days . . .

:heynow:

[BallaActuary]

I love how BallaActuary can't afford cable or the internet....I honestly don't need tons of $$ but I want my own small house with all the amenities. Yup, I want a car, I want a computer with the internet, cable TV, I want furniture. I want to save money for retirement. Isn't 120K a year enough for that?

:lol: Funny how things changed. I've actually got more raises after I :qunq: quit :qunq: taking exams than when I was taking them.

And I'm not sure how much I envy mortgage brokers and realtors anymore...

BTW, I now have 2 TV's (HD with cable!) >= 42" and a sick computer (with internet!)

[BondGirl]

Sweet...so glad to hear you are doing better!! :tup:

How did you start getting more raises after quitting exams?

[Werewolf]

Great thread. So Smooth Criminal = Bermi = TZK?

[JMO]

Great thread. So Smooth Criminal = Bermi = TZK?
:hfbb:

[Kenshiro]

Sweet...so glad to hear you are doing better!! :tup:

How did you start getting more raises after quitting exams?

Most people I know do.

You stall out in an actuarial path if you don't pass exams. If you transfer to a different role, you get good raises just for doing good work.

[General Apathy]

and a sick computer (with internet!)

If you need to borrow a few $$ to get your computer fixed, let me know